Harris O’Malley challenges the notion that there is an epidemic of man-children in society today.
One of the ongoing topics in the media today is the perpetual woe and wailing overthe state of manhood, masculinity and the supposed “crisis” afflicting young men today – causing them to forgo the traditions of manliness of yore and to languish in some perpetual limbo. Guys today – or so claim perpetual pearl-clutchers and mustache strokers - are refusing to grow up and become men, preferring instead to extend adolesence indefinitely, indulging in minimum-responsibility jobs, swilling down beer and drugs, chasing tail, playing video games and shirking responsibility until circumstances (i.e. bills and/or their parents) force them into becoming family men and therefore productive members of society. As evidence, we are presented with a mishmash of pop-cultural touchstones: the characters from Friends and Family Guy, the ouvre of Judd Appatow (especially Knocked Up) and the fact that women are pursuing degrees in greater numbers than men for the first time… even geek culture gets fingered because everybody knows that comics, movies and video games are the sole province of children and not mature adults.
Public Enemy #1
The wails and lamentations that men (and those damn feminist women) are delaying or even avoiding traditional touchstones of adulthood like marriage and parenthood only further drives home the question: what happened, and where have all the good men gone? Why do men live in this state of peurile shallowness when they should be out there radiating masculinity as bread-winners, husbands and fathers like in days of yore? Who is to blame for this and how can we squeeze men back into the mold of traditional masculinity and adulthood?
Of course, as is so often the case, the problem is that men haven’t gone anywhere; it’s just that people are looking in the wrong place for the wrong things.
♦◊♦
… And Where Are All The Gods?
The kick-off to this little rant was a discussion on my Facebook page over an article by R. J. Moeller - an evangelical conservative pundit - that was written as part of a symposium aimed at “curing” this so-called masculinity crisis, decrying the current state of masculinity and it’s culture of lowered expectations for men. Moeller leads with a quote from professional worry-wart Kay Hymowitz’ article in the Wall Street Journal over the state of manhood in the 21st Century:
Not so long ago, the average American man in his 20s had achieved most of the milestones of adulthood: a high-school diploma, financial independence, marriage and children. Today, most men in their 20s hang out in a novel sort of limbo, a hybrid state of semi-hormonal adolescence and responsible self-reliance. This “pre-adulthood” has much to recommend it, especially for the college-educated. But it’s time to state what has become obvious to legions of frustrated young women: It doesn’t bring out the best in men.
Moeller agrees.The “problem” is that so many men are refusing - refusing, I say - to follow the heteronormative path to old-school masculine adulthood is a sign that we are in the End of Days and that men are becoming a vestigial remnant of what they once were, becoming feminized children instead of manly men with bristling mustachios, thickets of chest hair and radiant heterosexuality.
Moeller betrays his leanings in the next paragraph when he demonizes the idea of progressive social change, decrying the idea that leaving behind the social mores and goals of Leave It To Beaver and Victorian England1 is something to be applauded, and lays the blame firmly at the altar of liberal Berkley, where dread Cm’le P’glia lies dreaming. Ia! Ia! Clinton, F’thagan!
He goes on to blame modern culture for “lowering the standards” on young men, exchanging “character” for the supposedly questionable descriptors of being “progressive”, “open-minded” and “stylish”. This is a problem because, and I quote:
The problem here is that these are not, broadly speaking, manly things.
Let’s not kid ourselves; he’s complaining that being “open-minded” and understanding how to dress is faggy.
The problem, he insists is that we’ve gotten away from the moral codes of the 50s and lost manly role models like… Ron Swanson. No, seriously. He makes the point over and over again about how manly and masculine Nick Offerman is, apparently not understanding that Offerman a) is an actor and b) that Ron Swanson is an over-the-top parody of “masculinity”.
By contrast, he gives us… Chris Hardwick, Matt Mira, Jonah Ray and Jason Schwartzman. We are supposed to feel disdain for these people because Chris, Jonah and Matt are un-married “uber-nerds” in their 30s and Schartzmann has played “effeminiate losers” in movies.
Again: Moeller seems to not understand the difference between the actor and the role.
Moeller goes on to say that these “dainty dopes” – again, a direct quote, because he REALLY wants us to make the connection between nerd and “fag” – were clearly fascinated by Swanson, er, Offerman… because he represents “traditional manliness” and they were “attracted to it”.
Presumably, Moeller also imagined them comparing dick sizes. But we’ll get back to this in a moment.
The problem is that Moeller – like Hymowitz and other mourners of manliness – don’t seem to understand that the world has moved on and they’re desperately trying to portray themselves as taking a principled stand instead of as dinosaurs watching the asteroid closing in.
A Longing For Vintage Masculinity
I will be the first to say that there are many men who are casting about for a sense of identity, and purpose; there are many who feel – with justification – that somewhere along the way, we have lost track of what it means to be a man. Over the years, the traditional touchstones of masculinity and adulthood have worn away.
And this is a good thing.
Our old cultural definitions of masculinity were based on outdated ideals bound up in definition by opposition – being a man was defined in no small part in not being a woman. Men’s roles were clear-cut – we possessed greater upper body strength than women, therefore we were defined by our physicality: hunters, soldiers, workers, builders. Women were possessions, then second-class citizens barely a step above slaves, unable to earn money or even own property; therefor men were the providers, the bread-winners and the heads of households. Women bore and raised the children and did the menial work and housekeeping; therefor they were the nurturers and men were the doers. Sperm – or so the script went – was metaphorically cheap and eggs were expensive, so men were supposed to spread their seed far and wide while women were supposed to barter access to sex for material support and protection from the alpha males.
And yet time has marched on. Technology changed the nature of day-to-day living and put women on an equal level as men in terms of productivity. Culture changed, making women our social equals with the same rights and responsibilities as men. Medicine advanced, allowing women to control their fertility and suddenly women could fuck as consequence-free as men, giving them the freedom to explore and indulge their sexuality in a way that was restricted only to men. Once women were able to hold the same social roles as men, the major differences are down to physical… and those matter less and less in modern society. Yeah, larger and denser fast-twitch muscles is cool and all when it comes to athletic competitions, but it ultimately has very little effect on day to day life.
How can you define yourself in opposition to something when you no longer have an opposite?
Social change between men and women happend incredibly rapidly. The concept of equality between the sexes – and the evolution of both laws and culture to allow for it – is less barely over 100 year old, as are the technological advances that mitigated the physical differences between men and women… and yet we have had millenia of of social conventions and conditioning that enforce gender roles. Small wonder that people feel conflicted – we’ve had virtually no time to get used to the idea that things have changed and we’re having to scramble to adapt. To quote Betty Friedan: dudes are feeling inadequate because we’ve run out of bears to hunt.
It’s only natural to look to the past for a potential model for masculine identity – after all, we presumably had plenty of models. In trying to harken back to the “good old days” (which were really only ”good” if you were a white, straight,middle or upper-class Protestant male if we’re going to be honest) we’re trying to go back to a time when the roles were more clear-cut and outlined in black and white, not all of these confusing shades of gray. Unfortunately these models of behavior no longer square with the society in which we live.
And neither, for that matter, do the touchstones of maturity and adulthood.
What Makes An Adult?
It used to be that the path for adulthood was fairly clearly marked. The transition from “boy” to “man” has always been an unclear one. Women’s transition to physical maturity is marked by her first menstruation; men have no such easily discernable line and so manhood rituals would spring up. You would be a man when you killed your first lion or at your circumcision or other equally as arbitrary rites of passage. In the modern world, it became a process of milestones: you graduated from high-school, went to college if you could afford it and got your degree, got a job that you would presumably hold for life, got married, bought a house, popped out 2.5 kids, bought 2.28 cars and the cycle would more or less perpetuate itself.
But just as social modes changed, so too did adulthood’s landmarks and the rituals have lost their meaning. We live in a world where our college degrees are fundamentally worthless and leave us saddled with crushing levels of debt in a system that’s rigged to keep us from paying it off for as long as possible. Home ownership – long heralded as an integral part of the American Dream – has been priced out of reach for many people and is fundamentally unsuited for a significant portion of the population. Not only are jobs almost impossible to find and don’t pay nearly enough, but the concept of a lifelong career has almost evaporated; the average American can expect to hold his or her job for only 3 to 5 years before moving on – and because of the country’s ass-backwards system of providing health care, losing one’s job has potentially dire consequences for your quality of life on many levels.
Small wonder so many people choose to put off “adulthood” for longer if they can afford to; the life we were told to expect doesn’t exist any more and the one we’ve been sold is defective. Turns out Meat Loaf is right: life is a lemon, but there’s no getting your money back.
Similarly the social standards of the age have meant that other social structures such as marriage and child-rearing no longer have the same impact that they once did. The definition of “family” has changed radically, especially in the last 20 years. Women are no longer dependent on husbands for financial support, and the levels of divorce mean that more and more children – nearly 10 million per year – grew up in single-parent family structures; as far as they are concerned, that is the norm rather than a married heterosexual couple. Marriage no longer has the social importance that it used to and remains entirely out of reach for a significant portion of the gay population. Pop culture has normalized the non-nuclear family where the rules of what makes a family are what you decide they are rather than what society has insisted upon.
Say What You Will About National Socalism, At Least It’s An Ethos.
Whenever the topic of the endless adolescence is brought up, there is an inevitable casting about for someone to blame. Hymowitz makes nods to the disintigration of the old model, but is far quicker to split the blame between women and the culture-mongers of Madison Avenue and Hollywood, contrasting images of “manly men” of yore with the ever popular punching bag that is Seth Rogan’s character in Knocked Up. How, she argues, are men supposed to want to mature when they have distractions like video games and sports bars2 and television channels like Spike and Cartoon Network cater to their immaturity and encourage them to be post-pubescent Peter Pans? In Hymowitz’ world, men only “count” when they get married and have a couple kids… but why should they bother when women – those damned independent feminists – don’t need men for financial security or even childrenany more?
Moeller picks a different target; as far as he’s concerned, it can all be blamed on a world where lowered expectations of what is “manly” has birthed a world of liberals, nerds and fags (who are more or less one and the same, as far as he’s concerned). Manhood – as defined by Ron Swanson – has become a rare beast while boys have become increasingly pussified. It’s never more clear when he describes the Nerdist crew in increasingly feminizing terms; they’re “dainty dopes” in Ms. Pac-Man tees (again: driving home the idea that Jonah and Matt barely have time to record the podcast in between games of GoldenEye and sucking each other’s dicks) who are aroused by the presence of “true” manliness. Just, y’know, not enough to go be men… after all, they’re nerrrrds.
“MUELLER SMASH NERDS!”
Nerds and nancy-boys who weep like pussies over the death of Steve Jobs and hide away in their nerd-caves and tree-houses because they couldn’t possibly hack it in the “real” world.
But in reality, the real answer is nobody is to blame… and everybody is. While Moeller wishes for the Conservative Fantasy America of the 50s (that never existed) and dreams of Swanson’s mustache tickling his neck, the self-selected mourners of masculinity don’t want to acknowledge that not only have the old models crumbled but we need to create new ones for ourselves. There is no Unified Theory of Manliness anymore; we each are going to have to decide for ourselves what this new world of masculinity and adulthood looks like.
This is in no small part why so many micro-cultures have sprung up; say what you will about bro culture for example, but it does provide a model of behavior with the support and validation of a group of your peers and a reward system that encourages men to indulge in sex without regret or remorse - heady stuff when you’re struggling for a masculine identity.
Boys 2 Men
None of this is new. The previous generation always believes that the one following is worse than any that came before.
“The youth now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Youths now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up sweets at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” – Socrates (attributed by Plato)
The complaints of the modern pre-adult men – the interest in “childish” pursuits, the refusal to accept responsibility, overindulgence in alcohol and immature obsession with sex – are older than print.
Moreover, it’s not even accurate. The age of the average gamer – one of those hallmarks of childish arrested development – is 37… 45% of whom play video games with their children. Science-fiction – another go-to example of childish interests – is the province of hard sciences and engineers. The average fan of Star Wars is in his 30s and 40s. The average comic reader is in his late twenties and early thirties, many of whom are married, with children. And yet these are the supposed interests of children.
Hymowitz may blame Judd Appatow for romanticizing the man-child with the slacker lifestyle but she apparently misunderstands the entire point of Knocked Up; it’s about Ben Stone’s learning to accept responsibility3 , not “Isn’t life great when you never grow up?” Moeller not only mistakes the actor for the role but also the reasons for the appeal. Offerman’s got the mustache sure, but he’s not Swanson. He is however charismatic – who would have expected a professional actor to have charisma?? – who lives a life of passion and drive… appealing traits in damn near anyone. Shockingly, this is entirely separate from how much red meat and eggs and bacon he eats.
And those femme-y “dainty dorks” he belittles with their interest in toys and gadgets? They’re producing an award-winning podcast, enjoying careers as television hosts, best-selling authors, actors and up-and-coming comedians and cultural commentators all the while running a new media empire that’s the digital arm of one of the most successful production companies in the world.
Not only are they thriving in the real world, they’re positioning themselves to drive it. Not bad for some effeminiate losers and boy-men. If this is some sort of swishy nerdy perma-adolesence, then sign my happy ass up!
A Modern Sort Of Manhood
We put too much importance on ritual and ceremony when it comes to deciding what makes a person “an adult”, and the rigidity of thought indulged in by Moeller and Hymowitz betrays their inability to accept progress and adapt to changing times. They want to turn back the clock and regress us to a simpler time tinged by nostalgia, false memories and imagination.
Moeller can keep his Ron Swanson fantasy; I submit that Henry Rollins makes for a superior definition of “man”, one who fits our world as it currently is.
When the outward touchstones of adulthood have been worn to nothing we must look inward to find what it means to be an adult. The difference between a boy and a man is about the mind as much as about the body.
A man accepts and manages his responsibilities, to himself, to his family and to his society. A boy does not.
A man has discipline and self-control; a boy is a slave to his impulses and desires.
A man has strong boundaries and maintains them; he has standards to which he holds himself and others and does not allow others to push him beyond those.
A man does not settle; he fights for his goals, ambitions and dreams. Even if he fails, that failure is more noble than never striving in the first place.
A man is comfortable enough in himself to embrace being vulnerable. He doesn’t fear the judgment of others or require their validation.
A man has a sense of purpose and drive that motivates him. A boy wallows in self-indulgence.
A man seeks to create his place in the world through his actions; a boy does only the minimum required to get by.
A man seeks to experience the transcendent in this world; a boy is content to dull himself and look no further than his immediate gratification.
This is modern manliness. It is in your behavior and in your soul, not in the external trappings of adulthood. It has nothing to do with how thick your facial hair is, how much meat you eat, how high your testosterone count is, how big your dick is or how many women you have slept with.
Let Moeller mourn the days of the dinosaurs. The rest of us will go and be sexy mammals instead.
- Fucking seriously? [↩]
- No, seriously [↩]
- And developing the emotional endurance needed to put up with Katherine Heigl for the next 18 years [↩]
Originally appeared at Paging Dr. NerdLove
About Harris O'Malley
As an introvert, I never let anyone else define what masculinity means to me. I took tidbits from here and there, but I spun them to make them my own. I guess that means I don’t really care what everyone else thinks about me or my masculinity. I talk with my full mind, think with my full soul, love with my full heart, and laugh with my full lungs. I guess that brought about some strange sort of confidence, because low and behold, I met someone and she makes me feel great, and apparently I do the same for her too, because we’re very undoubtedly in love now.
I know what the Passive-Aggressive(“PA”) types are complaining about. I went that route. I was dishonest in my intentions. And I now know why that didn’t work. I couldn’t be honest because I wasn’t willing to get hurt, because I was certain that I would, most likely because I didn’t think I was worth much. Then one day I wondered why I was angry all the time. Blaming other people “She’s stupid, He’s an asshole, she’s a slut.” etc. didn’t work for me. I wasn’t getting anywhere. Single for years at a time, no sex, no friends, no fun, no motivation, etc. Then I decided to change me and my outlook on life. I lost 25 pounds, stopped blaming other people for my problems, went back to school, got a job, and now I love my life. I didn’t get to where I am now because I moped around, and acted dysfunctional, like Moeller claims all young men do these days. I took control of my life. I guess it showed because it became catnip. I got more dates, made more friends, but all the time I never settled or jumped to whoever would take interest in me. Instead I found a woman who loves me because I’ve never lied to her about who I am, or how I feel, and she has never lied to me. We are compatible in every way. I think, to get back to the point, if you were to ask her what she loves about me, is that I have no problem with being self-deprecating or humble, but out of that learned humility I have a fire inside me that can not be extinguished by anyone, and I apply it to everything I do. I think that fire in the gut is what masculinity is. Or at least for me, because it’s up to all of us to decide what being adults means.
As for the pointless comments about sandwiches, I agree with some of the folks, in that no woman makes me a sandwich. And no woman is allowed in my kitchen either. I’ve never dated anyone who’s a significantly better cook than I am, and with the amount of fresh onions, jalapenos, and hot sauce on my sandwiches, most women can’t stand to be in the same room as my sandwiches, let alone make them for me, which is fine by me. I’m all like “Bitch don’t you be touching my sandwich stuffs.” When my mother visits me, she gets scolded because she uses the wrong spoon for the wrong serving dish. Yep, it’s like that.
- Domestic and Majestic, Strong and Smart.
Mike
A classic “First World” problem – how can I find a man who perfectly matches the exhaustively detailed list of criteria I have for a potential mate? You know, just someone who is as good as the men from back in the golden age, the era I don’t really know much about except that the men must have been better then because I see no redeeming qualities in the men in my own society, and of course my criteria are unassailable, so the problem must be half of the world’s population, not me. How does that song go? “Fairy tales can come true/ It could happen to you….”
@ Wellokaythen
Well said.
American women are way too picky, even though most of them aren’t exactly prize catches themselves.
The irony here is that very little of this is actually the fault of feminism. Some of it is: women entering the workforce was always going to drive down wages, lowering single men to the lowest rung of our society. It is also to blame for men falling behind in school — you can’t focus 100% of your energy on gender and then hope that the magical patriarchy will come by and set things right for the other gender (particularly when you never bothered to prove that patriarchy was a real thing in the first place). They are responsible for driving fathers out of the home, particularly with VAWA Act’s restraining order provisions (if a woman asks, she gets one; they she gets to use that to prove abuse… even though no hearing was involved).
This, though — that’s thanks to neoliberalism. I won’t defend feminism (in no small part because it is the handmaiden of neoliberalism, pitting the genders against each other to make class solidarity impossible). But neoliberalism is the great evil here. Feminism is simply a mask that it wears.
“force them into becoming family men and therefore productive members of society.”
Does this definition of “good” also apply to women? Are single women exloring their own interests and hobbies therefore not-”good”?
Is it fair to objectify men for what they do for others, rather than who they are as a human being?
Can someone please explain to me why, on a site called “Good Men Project”, most of the comments are from men who clearly hate women?
oh yeah? I noticed some men who hate some feminist ideas but I don’t see men who hate women here
I dont know if somebody hates women, but most of the comments come clearly from men who are tired to hear the same meme over and over again about ‘ women have it worse’ or ‘ how defective guys are ‘ so popular in modern mainstream mass media, like this article. The summary is in few words If you dont do like I say, you are a child. So it is patronizing and limiting for men (and everybody else) because, nobody has the right to tell what people should do. And especially trying to infantile who doesent fall into the man box (and it is also anti-feminist).
About the woman haters they are a problem, but no more than the man haters on womens site.
Hi Liz,
I’m sorry to say that binary argumentative comments are the rule of thumb on the internet and the comments sections here at GMP are no different. I hope you will consider a different lens. Consider our site from the standpoint of the articles alone, as it is the universe of article here, not the comments, which best reflect what the Good Men Project is trying to do. The comments are more like one long unrelenting bar fight which both sides of the gender wars seems to not be able to get enough of. Ever.
Hi Mark,
You’re definitely right about the typical internet comments. I appreciate this site for what it is and I find the articles to be very well written and, to be blunt, exactly what both men and women need to hear and need to acknowledge. My comment was out of frustrating that the good of the website is being ignored or not understood by many people, and men in this case, using the comments section as a forum to rag about the women who’ve hurt them or their grievances about women in general instead of reflecting on the article. There are definitely those of us out there who appreciate what you’re doing, despite the ignorance of many.
“My comment was out of frustrating that the good of the website is being ignored or not understood by many people, and men in this case, using the comments section as a forum to rag about the women who’ve hurt them or their grievances about women in general instead of reflecting on the article”
That still doesn’t mean they hate women. This is a site for men, you, a woman, coming into this site to not only dismiss but insult their comments as hating women is utterly disgusting. Show me where the men are who hate women? There are a few comments that are misogynist which usually get moderated or called out, but largely there are men who are in pain and need a place to talk, what right do you have to say they are hating women unless they are talking about ALL women? Where do you think these men will be able to discuss such issues? Society largely tells men to STFU and this site is pretty unique in allowing such a discussion of all issues affecting men to take place. The last thing we need is more women coming in to tell the men they are wrong, they hate women, etc simply for discussing how SOME women have hurt them.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen a man accused of hating women because he disagreed with feminism, or disagreed with a SINGLE woman, or even just criticized the actions of a SINGLE woman. I really hope you are not using that type of logic here. The majority of these commenters DO NOT HATE WOMEN and your generalization about men hating women on this area, could I fairly say that YOU HATE MEN?
And moderators, how’d this slip by? How does such a negative generalization of the commenters here get by unnoticed? If her comment is true then why were the men’s comments allowed? How fucked up is it to have a woman dismiss ALL of these men’s comments as nothing but hatred of women, ON a site meant to be for men to talk about men’s issues. Is this not a safe space for men to talk about their issues? I actually consider Liz’s action to be pretty hateful, what else could make someone simply state most comments here are from woman-haters when these guys don’t hate women?
Hi
I feel the same. The is a great website but the comments some men make are filled with hate for women.
So why not express these feelings in words?
How do women harm you?
I am well aware that there is a competion to get the “best ” women and some men win over others.
But how is it women’s fault if you have less education,less skill to get a well payed job,lower status in society, or maybe lack social skill to deal with women to get all your emotional needs met.
Tell us why you are so filled with hatred. Tell us why.
Your patronizing tone isn’t appreciated. These men are tired of being talked down too and you are doing just that. They don’t hate women and they are tired of being accused of that every time they stand up for themselves. How about you prove you don’t hate men so you could have fun trying to prove a negative.
These games need to stop.
Im a bit curious how you concluded that most of the comments around here are from men who hate women.
Exactly what in your book is indicative of being hateful of women.
And I’m serious.
From what I’ve seen the bar for “hateful of women” can be as low as disagreeing with a woman.
Its a vicious cycle I know but I think one thing that will help is to clear things up so that we are just going around and pointing fingers at people and calling them hateful at the first sign of disagreement.
While not every comment on this site is about hating on women, there are many. And seemingly from men who have a very big chip on their shoulder they’d like to blame most women for.
One example today was a guy saying that women are shallow b*tches because some had height preferences, just one of many examples. I don’t see how a height preference for women is any different from a thin preference for men, but that’s a whole other can of worms.
I am all for people talking about how they feel, but throwing out hurtful generalizations like that is completely unnecessary and frustrating, especially after you try to explain things from a female perspective and get nothing attacks.
And seemingly from men who have a very big chip on their shoulder they’d like to blame most women for.
I think this comes from the fact that in some capacity women actually are to blame for some of the chip that men have on their shoulders. And it also doesn’t help that these guys are coming from being told that when it comes to responsibility for the mess women have no responsibility but men do.
One example today was a guy saying that women are shallow b*tches because some had height preferences, just one of many examples. I don’t see how a height preference for women is any different from a thin preference for men, but that’s a whole other can of worms.
Because men that have a thin preference in women can quite easily be shamed for holding women to such standards. But as you that’s a different can.
I am all for people talking about how they feel, but throwing out hurtful generalizations like that is completely unnecessary and frustrating, especially after you try to explain things from a female perspective and get nothing attacks.
It’s happening from both sides. Explaining something from a male perspective is already largely considered wrong in the first place unless its just to agree with women. A lot of those hurtful genearlizations are coming from guys who have not only been on the wrong end of hurtful generalizations but are then told that instead of having that frustration acknowledged they are supposed to just accept and understand the frustration of the people who dumped on them in the first place.
The problem is that there is too much “You need to listen to us but we don’t need to listen to you!” going on. People on all sides that want to be the only ones free to talk to people in any way they want (no matter how unproductive it ultimately is) while demanding that the people on the other sides must be respectful and understanding.
“Explaining something from a male perspective is already largely considered wrong in the first place unless its just to agree with women.”
According to who? I love men and I value their opinions and want to hear how they feel about things; it’s not my fault, nor any other woman’s, if the man thinks he can’t talk about how he feels. I for one am all ears when a man wants to tell me his side of things. It’s possible to have a mature, conflict-free discussion about male and female perspectives if generalizations and finger-pointing are left out of it.
According to who?
Women, feminists, women’s advocates, men, …..take your pick (of course I’m sure you know I don’t mean all of either of those subsets).
it’s not my fault, nor any other woman’s, if the man thinks he can’t talk about how he feels
I didn’t say it was their fault. What I am saying is that when men speak up there are those that try to shut them up, just like any other group of people.
It’s possible to have a mature, conflict-free discussion about male and female perspectives if generalizations and finger-pointing are left out of it.
Yes I agree as well. As long as it’s left out on all sides. It’s going to be hard for anyone to be civil when a starting point of the conversation is to tell them that their experiences don’t matter or that because they are _____ they shouldn’t speak up or that because they _____ they have not been mistreated on an institutional level.
“While not every comment on this site is about hating on women, there are many. ”
Not the majority, and in fact some of your comments have been quite generalizing and in fact hateful to many of the men here when you state most of the comments on this page are clearly of people who hate men. You’re acting no better than those you are trying to call out.
“I am all for people talking about how they feel, but throwing out hurtful generalizations like that is completely unnecessary and frustrating, especially after you try to explain things from a female perspective and get nothing attacks.”
So you do the same thing in reverse? The guys that do open up n talk about how they feel can and DO get attacked for it.
Sorry Liz but do you hate men? you picked a comment which asks why the article only focuses on men and doesn’t mention women in the same boat asking about a bias
That’s a logical and legitimate concern and doesn’t mean he hates men it means he think the article is bias
Women who party and get drunk doing the same things this article says are unmanly should be in the same boat but aren’t mentioned in this article, its well known that this site is bias against men in this area as women are often seen as “independent” but men are seen as immature when this kind of article pops up.
Fact is if 1 sex is bad for doing this kind of thing both are and should be noted as such.
Help
When I try to comment I am told my e-mail address is invalid .
Hi
I live in Scandinavia. Different cultures express themselvs differently.
And men in different part of the world do not mean the same thing when they say they dislike “feminism”.
I do not have time tonight to give you examples of why I feel many comments here are hateful.
If you have time we can come back to it?
I myself hated men for many years of my life. I hated men so intensely that I asked a whole convent of Fransicans munks pray for me take away my hatred. And they prayed!!!!’
I can smile now,thinking of it.
I will come back to you. Now I am working.
It was at this line I realised the author had no clue what he was talking about
“even geek culture gets fingered because everybody knows that comics, movies and video games are the sole province of children and not mature adults.”
The average video gamer is an adult, the telegraph found this number to be 37. This instantly disproves that games are for children only.
Comics are stories in the forum of pictures, just like a book is a story in the forum of words and a movie is a video format story. None of these 3 areas are childish or prove immaturity by the media used but by the content of the story. Although Toy story is for children it is loved by all ages, does that mean adults who enjoy moves made for younger audience immature? no it means they enjoyed a movie not made for their demographic
Movies are a billion pound industry loved by all ages, saying that movies are for children is possibly the stupidest comment in existence since the majority of films are aimed at adults not children.
The next stupid thing he says is this
“Nerds and nancy-boys who weep like pussies over the death of Steve Jobs and hide away in their nerd-caves and tree-houses because they couldn’t possibly hack it in the “real” world.”
Nerds make up the worlds most intelligent human beings, getting upset over the death of another human is unmanly now? Steve jobs may have been a horrible person but he was a great marketer of technology, this is coming from an android fan boy who doesn’t buy apple products.
Manliness is an adapting concept, just like what it means to be a woman in todays society, society changed and with it the men did too. I would consider someone a man if they were a nice excuse for a human, who put the needs of others first and had a life they enjoy living.
If I can support myself on a lower income job doing what I love who would you be to tell me I’m wrong? If i don’t need a fancy house or car to be happy why would I need to spend more of my life in a job I hate to meet your meaning of manliness? now if I had children of course a higher income would be important, but most young men don’t have that kind of responsibility and shouldn’t be forced into a path they hate to please a future they haven’t met yet. I plan to travel the world after university, financed by an online business i made in my spare time which takes a day of my time a week. Am I wrong for creating an alternative job path to suit this lifestyle? No It just makes me smart enough to know what I want and how to meet those aims
Common sense really, throw away your bigoted stereotypes and throw in some science would you? Nerds made this website and damn well own you and your life, you make money from a blog which is based in programming which is a nerd field, using a computer created by guess who… a nerd. “Nerds” are a community of smart people, when we lose a genius of course many of us will be upset, just as when Einstein died or when Stephen hawking passes nerds everywhere will feel the loss of a genius.
Why is this article also focused at only men? don’t women enjoy partying and getting drunk at the same ages? This site is a really bad example of what men should be, I originally loved the idea then the subjects changed to lets attack all men who don’t fit our delusional and unrealistic requirements for men everywhere.
Rob
Bravo!
A QUESTION TO ALL MEN HERE:
” is it best for you if we the women do not take part in the debates on Good Men Project!
I respect your wishes.
” is it best for you if we the women do not take part in the debates on Good Men Project!
No that would be the worst possibly outcome.
Iben is/was female? I did not know that.
hmmm
Nordic 1760, used as female or male name, Frisian variant form of Ivo meaning yew tree, bow or archer …
a whole convent of Fransican munks …convent, monks
Women commenting is fine. Women showing misandry is not. Also I do believe women should respect the men and men should respect the women.
Iben, as a woman, please join the conversation and discuss, more importantly learn. Men across this globe have some serious concerns. I don’t care about some nonsense articles, but the important issues are where we, women really need to listen. Most of the regulars here are sharp, opinionated, and really decent guys if you give them a chance. Oh yeah, when I get irresponsible with my words, they’ll call me out too.
Hi Joan
Thank you.
I agree with you. There is a lot of decent men on this website,and it is interesting.
My silence now was caused my the fact that I am in a middle of an inheritance case in my family. We all have tread softly to prevent future conflicts in the family. Those that take reonsiblity are also the ones that gets all the blame later on. So now,no men in my family want the responsibility in this case.
And when I feel the pressue,the unrealistic expectations I get a little glims into what men feel when they are expected to take charge. I am tired. We have to cooperate,that is the only way.
But I will not withdraw from debates here.