Harris O’Malley challenges the notion that there is an epidemic of man-children in society today.
One of the ongoing topics in the media today is the perpetual woe and wailing overthe state of manhood, masculinity and the supposed “crisis” afflicting young men today – causing them to forgo the traditions of manliness of yore and to languish in some perpetual limbo. Guys today – or so claim perpetual pearl-clutchers and mustache strokers – are refusing to grow up and become men, preferring instead to extend adolesence indefinitely, indulging in minimum-responsibility jobs, swilling down beer and drugs, chasing tail, playing video games and shirking responsibility until circumstances (i.e. bills and/or their parents) force them into becoming family men and therefore productive members of society. As evidence, we are presented with a mishmash of pop-cultural touchstones: the characters from Friends and Family Guy, the ouvre of Judd Appatow (especially Knocked Up) and the fact that women are pursuing degrees in greater numbers than men for the first time… even geek culture gets fingered because everybody knows that comics, movies and video games are the sole province of children and not mature adults.
The wails and lamentations that men (and those damn feminist women) are delaying or even avoiding traditional touchstones of adulthood like marriage and parenthood only further drives home the question: what happened, and where have all the good men gone? Why do men live in this state of peurile shallowness when they should be out there radiating masculinity as bread-winners, husbands and fathers like in days of yore? Who is to blame for this and how can we squeeze men back into the mold of traditional masculinity and adulthood?
Of course, as is so often the case, the problem is that men haven’t gone anywhere; it’s just that people are looking in the wrong place for the wrong things.
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… And Where Are All The Gods?
The kick-off to this little rant was a discussion on my Facebook page over an article by R. J. Moeller – an evangelical conservative pundit – that was written as part of a symposium aimed at “curing” this so-called masculinity crisis, decrying the current state of masculinity and it’s culture of lowered expectations for men. Moeller leads with a quote from professional worry-wart Kay Hymowitz’ article in the Wall Street Journal over the state of manhood in the 21st Century:
Not so long ago, the average American man in his 20s had achieved most of the milestones of adulthood: a high-school diploma, financial independence, marriage and children. Today, most men in their 20s hang out in a novel sort of limbo, a hybrid state of semi-hormonal adolescence and responsible self-reliance. This “pre-adulthood” has much to recommend it, especially for the college-educated. But it’s time to state what has become obvious to legions of frustrated young women: It doesn’t bring out the best in men.
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Moeller agrees.The “problem” is that so many men are refusing – refusing, I say – to follow the heteronormative path to old-school masculine adulthood is a sign that we are in the End of Days and that men are becoming a vestigial remnant of what they once were, becoming feminized children instead of manly men with bristling mustachios, thickets of chest hair and radiant heterosexuality.
Moeller betrays his leanings in the next paragraph when he demonizes the idea of progressive social change, decrying the idea that leaving behind the social mores and goals of Leave It To Beaver and Victorian England1 is something to be applauded, and lays the blame firmly at the altar of liberal Berkley, where dread Cm’le P’glia lies dreaming. Ia! Ia! Clinton, F’thagan!
He goes on to blame modern culture for “lowering the standards” on young men, exchanging “character” for the supposedly questionable descriptors of being “progressive”, “open-minded” and “stylish”. This is a problem because, and I quote:
The problem here is that these are not, broadly speaking, manly things.
Let’s not kid ourselves; he’s complaining that being “open-minded” and understanding how to dress is faggy.
The problem, he insists is that we’ve gotten away from the moral codes of the 50s and lost manly role models like… Ron Swanson. No, seriously. He makes the point over and over again about how manly and masculine Nick Offerman is, apparently not understanding that Offerman a) is an actor and b) that Ron Swanson is an over-the-top parody of “masculinity”.
By contrast, he gives us… Chris Hardwick, Matt Mira, Jonah Ray and Jason Schwartzman. We are supposed to feel disdain for these people because Chris, Jonah and Matt are un-married “uber-nerds” in their 30s and Schartzmann has played “effeminiate losers” in movies.
Again: Moeller seems to not understand the difference between the actor and the role.
Moeller goes on to say that these “dainty dopes” – again, a direct quote, because he REALLY wants us to make the connection between nerd and “fag” – were clearly fascinated by Swanson, er, Offerman… because he represents “traditional manliness” and they were “attracted to it”.
Presumably, Moeller also imagined them comparing dick sizes. But we’ll get back to this in a moment.
The problem is that Moeller – like Hymowitz and other mourners of manliness – don’t seem to understand that the world has moved on and they’re desperately trying to portray themselves as taking a principled stand instead of as dinosaurs watching the asteroid closing in.
A Longing For Vintage Masculinity
I will be the first to say that there are many men who are casting about for a sense of identity, and purpose; there are many who feel – with justification – that somewhere along the way, we have lost track of what it means to be a man. Over the years, the traditional touchstones of masculinity and adulthood have worn away.
And this is a good thing.
Our old cultural definitions of masculinity were based on outdated ideals bound up in definition by opposition – being a man was defined in no small part in not being a woman. Men’s roles were clear-cut – we possessed greater upper body strength than women, therefore we were defined by our physicality: hunters, soldiers, workers, builders. Women were possessions, then second-class citizens barely a step above slaves, unable to earn money or even own property; therefor men were the providers, the bread-winners and the heads of households. Women bore and raised the children and did the menial work and housekeeping; therefor they were the nurturers and men were the doers. Sperm – or so the script went – was metaphorically cheap and eggs were expensive, so men were supposed to spread their seed far and wide while women were supposed to barter access to sex for material support and protection from the alpha males.
And yet time has marched on. Technology changed the nature of day-to-day living and put women on an equal level as men in terms of productivity. Culture changed, making women our social equals with the same rights and responsibilities as men. Medicine advanced, allowing women to control their fertility and suddenly women could fuck as consequence-free as men, giving them the freedom to explore and indulge their sexuality in a way that was restricted only to men. Once women were able to hold the same social roles as men, the major differences are down to physical… and those matter less and less in modern society. Yeah, larger and denser fast-twitch muscles is cool and all when it comes to athletic competitions, but it ultimately has very little effect on day to day life.
How can you define yourself in opposition to something when you no longer have an opposite?
Social change between men and women happend incredibly rapidly. The concept of equality between the sexes – and the evolution of both laws and culture to allow for it – is less barely over 100 year old, as are the technological advances that mitigated the physical differences between men and women… and yet we have had millenia of of social conventions and conditioning that enforce gender roles. Small wonder that people feel conflicted – we’ve had virtually no time to get used to the idea that things have changed and we’re having to scramble to adapt. To quote Betty Friedan: dudes are feeling inadequate because we’ve run out of bears to hunt.
It’s only natural to look to the past for a potential model for masculine identity – after all, we presumably had plenty of models. In trying to harken back to the “good old days” (which were really only ”good” if you were a white, straight,middle or upper-class Protestant male if we’re going to be honest) we’re trying to go back to a time when the roles were more clear-cut and outlined in black and white, not all of these confusing shades of gray. Unfortunately these models of behavior no longer square with the society in which we live.
And neither, for that matter, do the touchstones of maturity and adulthood.
What Makes An Adult?
It used to be that the path for adulthood was fairly clearly marked. The transition from “boy” to “man” has always been an unclear one. Women’s transition to physical maturity is marked by her first menstruation; men have no such easily discernable line and so manhood rituals would spring up. You would be a man when you killed your first lion or at your circumcision or other equally as arbitrary rites of passage. In the modern world, it became a process of milestones: you graduated from high-school, went to college if you could afford it and got your degree, got a job that you would presumably hold for life, got married, bought a house, popped out 2.5 kids, bought 2.28 cars and the cycle would more or less perpetuate itself.
But just as social modes changed, so too did adulthood’s landmarks and the rituals have lost their meaning. We live in a world where our college degrees are fundamentally worthless and leave us saddled with crushing levels of debt in a system that’s rigged to keep us from paying it off for as long as possible. Home ownership – long heralded as an integral part of the American Dream – has been priced out of reach for many people and is fundamentally unsuited for a significant portion of the population. Not only are jobs almost impossible to find and don’t pay nearly enough, but the concept of a lifelong career has almost evaporated; the average American can expect to hold his or her job for only 3 to 5 years before moving on – and because of the country’s ass-backwards system of providing health care, losing one’s job has potentially dire consequences for your quality of life on many levels.
Small wonder so many people choose to put off “adulthood” for longer if they can afford to; the life we were told to expect doesn’t exist any more and the one we’ve been sold is defective. Turns out Meat Loaf is right: life is a lemon, but there’s no getting your money back.
Similarly the social standards of the age have meant that other social structures such as marriage and child-rearing no longer have the same impact that they once did. The definition of “family” has changed radically, especially in the last 20 years. Women are no longer dependent on husbands for financial support, and the levels of divorce mean that more and more children – nearly 10 million per year – grew up in single-parent family structures; as far as they are concerned, that is the norm rather than a married heterosexual couple. Marriage no longer has the social importance that it used to and remains entirely out of reach for a significant portion of the gay population. Pop culture has normalized the non-nuclear family where the rules of what makes a family are what you decide they are rather than what society has insisted upon.
Say What You Will About National Socalism, At Least It’s An Ethos.
Whenever the topic of the endless adolescence is brought up, there is an inevitable casting about for someone to blame. Hymowitz makes nods to the disintigration of the old model, but is far quicker to split the blame between women and the culture-mongers of Madison Avenue and Hollywood, contrasting images of “manly men” of yore with the ever popular punching bag that is Seth Rogan’s character in Knocked Up. How, she argues, are men supposed to want to mature when they have distractions like video games and sports bars2 and television channels like Spike and Cartoon Network cater to their immaturity and encourage them to be post-pubescent Peter Pans? In Hymowitz’ world, men only “count” when they get married and have a couple kids… but why should they bother when women – those damned independent feminists – don’t need men for financial security or even childrenany more?
Moeller picks a different target; as far as he’s concerned, it can all be blamed on a world where lowered expectations of what is “manly” has birthed a world of liberals, nerds and fags (who are more or less one and the same, as far as he’s concerned). Manhood – as defined by Ron Swanson – has become a rare beast while boys have become increasingly pussified. It’s never more clear when he describes the Nerdist crew in increasingly feminizing terms; they’re “dainty dopes” in Ms. Pac-Man tees (again: driving home the idea that Jonah and Matt barely have time to record the podcast in between games of GoldenEye and sucking each other’s dicks) who are aroused by the presence of “true” manliness. Just, y’know, not enough to go be men… after all, they’re nerrrrds.
Nerds and nancy-boys who weep like pussies over the death of Steve Jobs and hide away in their nerd-caves and tree-houses because they couldn’t possibly hack it in the “real” world.
But in reality, the real answer is nobody is to blame… and everybody is. While Moeller wishes for the Conservative Fantasy America of the 50s (that never existed) and dreams of Swanson’s mustache tickling his neck, the self-selected mourners of masculinity don’t want to acknowledge that not only have the old models crumbled but we need to create new ones for ourselves. There is no Unified Theory of Manliness anymore; we each are going to have to decide for ourselves what this new world of masculinity and adulthood looks like.
This is in no small part why so many micro-cultures have sprung up; say what you will about bro culture for example, but it does provide a model of behavior with the support and validation of a group of your peers and a reward system that encourages men to indulge in sex without regret or remorse – heady stuff when you’re struggling for a masculine identity.
Boys 2 Men
None of this is new. The previous generation always believes that the one following is worse than any that came before.
“The youth now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Youths now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up sweets at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” – Socrates (attributed by Plato)
The complaints of the modern pre-adult men – the interest in “childish” pursuits, the refusal to accept responsibility, overindulgence in alcohol and immature obsession with sex – are older than print.
Moreover, it’s not even accurate. The age of the average gamer – one of those hallmarks of childish arrested development – is 37… 45% of whom play video games with their children. Science-fiction – another go-to example of childish interests – is the province of hard sciences and engineers. The average fan of Star Wars is in his 30s and 40s. The average comic reader is in his late twenties and early thirties, many of whom are married, with children. And yet these are the supposed interests of children.
Hymowitz may blame Judd Appatow for romanticizing the man-child with the slacker lifestyle but she apparently misunderstands the entire point of Knocked Up; it’s about Ben Stone’s learning to accept responsibility3 , not “Isn’t life great when you never grow up?” Moeller not only mistakes the actor for the role but also the reasons for the appeal. Offerman’s got the mustache sure, but he’s not Swanson. He is however charismatic – who would have expected a professional actor to have charisma?? – who lives a life of passion and drive… appealing traits in damn near anyone. Shockingly, this is entirely separate from how much red meat and eggs and bacon he eats.
And those femme-y “dainty dorks” he belittles with their interest in toys and gadgets? They’re producing an award-winning podcast, enjoying careers as television hosts, best-selling authors, actors and up-and-coming comedians and cultural commentators all the while running a new media empire that’s the digital arm of one of the most successful production companies in the world.
Not only are they thriving in the real world, they’re positioning themselves to drive it. Not bad for some effeminiate losers and boy-men. If this is some sort of swishy nerdy perma-adolesence, then sign my happy ass up!
A Modern Sort Of Manhood
We put too much importance on ritual and ceremony when it comes to deciding what makes a person “an adult”, and the rigidity of thought indulged in by Moeller and Hymowitz betrays their inability to accept progress and adapt to changing times. They want to turn back the clock and regress us to a simpler time tinged by nostalgia, false memories and imagination.
Moeller can keep his Ron Swanson fantasy; I submit that Henry Rollins makes for a superior definition of “man”, one who fits our world as it currently is.
When the outward touchstones of adulthood have been worn to nothing we must look inward to find what it means to be an adult. The difference between a boy and a man is about the mind as much as about the body.
A man accepts and manages his responsibilities, to himself, to his family and to his society. A boy does not.
A man has discipline and self-control; a boy is a slave to his impulses and desires.
A man has strong boundaries and maintains them; he has standards to which he holds himself and others and does not allow others to push him beyond those.
A man does not settle; he fights for his goals, ambitions and dreams. Even if he fails, that failure is more noble than never striving in the first place.
A man is comfortable enough in himself to embrace being vulnerable. He doesn’t fear the judgment of others or require their validation.
A man has a sense of purpose and drive that motivates him. A boy wallows in self-indulgence.
A man seeks to create his place in the world through his actions; a boy does only the minimum required to get by.
A man seeks to experience the transcendent in this world; a boy is content to dull himself and look no further than his immediate gratification.
This is modern manliness. It is in your behavior and in your soul, not in the external trappings of adulthood. It has nothing to do with how thick your facial hair is, how much meat you eat, how high your testosterone count is, how big your dick is or how many women you have slept with.
Let Moeller mourn the days of the dinosaurs. The rest of us will go and be sexy mammals instead.
- Fucking seriously? [↩]
- No, seriously [↩]
- And developing the emotional endurance needed to put up with Katherine Heigl for the next 18 years [↩]
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Originally appeared at Paging Dr. NerdLove and is republished on Medium.
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Photo credit: Shutterstock
How many men are forced into an unhappy marriage?
About 60% of marriages end up in divorce.
That could end up real bad for men.
They end up living in their car, but still paying for the house his ex wife lives in with her new lover.
Learn about family law and MGTOW.
I think all this article is really saying is that we no longer need to use gender as a definer. With all of the advances in technology and our own growing intellect (every generation is smarter than the generation that preceded it), the less we want to have our lives defined for us. We want to be able to live how we choose because we have so much choice. It stands to reason that the more choice people are given, and the less barriers for accessing those choices there are, the more diverse our societies are going to become. It’s… Read more »
A QUESTION TO ALL MEN HERE:
” is it best for you if we the women do not take part in the debates on Good Men Project!
I respect your wishes.
” is it best for you if we the women do not take part in the debates on Good Men Project!
No that would be the worst possibly outcome.
Iben is/was female? I did not know that.
hmmm
Nordic 1760, used as female or male name, Frisian variant form of Ivo meaning yew tree, bow or archer …
a whole convent of Fransican munks …convent, monks
Women commenting is fine. Women showing misandry is not. Also I do believe women should respect the men and men should respect the women.
Iben, as a woman, please join the conversation and discuss, more importantly learn. Men across this globe have some serious concerns. I don’t care about some nonsense articles, but the important issues are where we, women really need to listen. Most of the regulars here are sharp, opinionated, and really decent guys if you give them a chance. Oh yeah, when I get irresponsible with my words, they’ll call me out too.
Hi Joan Thank you. I agree with you. There is a lot of decent men on this website,and it is interesting. My silence now was caused my the fact that I am in a middle of an inheritance case in my family. We all have tread softly to prevent future conflicts in the family. Those that take reonsiblity are also the ones that gets all the blame later on. So now,no men in my family want the responsibility in this case. And when I feel the pressue,the unrealistic expectations I get a little glims into what men feel when they… Read more »
It was at this line I realised the author had no clue what he was talking about “even geek culture gets fingered because everybody knows that comics, movies and video games are the sole province of children and not mature adults.” The average video gamer is an adult, the telegraph found this number to be 37. This instantly disproves that games are for children only. Comics are stories in the forum of pictures, just like a book is a story in the forum of words and a movie is a video format story. None of these 3 areas are childish… Read more »
Rob
Bravo!
Hi I live in Scandinavia. Different cultures express themselvs differently. And men in different part of the world do not mean the same thing when they say they dislike “feminism”. I do not have time tonight to give you examples of why I feel many comments here are hateful. If you have time we can come back to it? I myself hated men for many years of my life. I hated men so intensely that I asked a whole convent of Fransicans munks pray for me take away my hatred. And they prayed!!!!’ I can smile now,thinking of it. I… Read more »
Help
When I try to comment I am told my e-mail address is invalid .
Can someone please explain to me why, on a site called “Good Men Project”, most of the comments are from men who clearly hate women?
oh yeah? I noticed some men who hate some feminist ideas but I don’t see men who hate women here
I dont know if somebody hates women, but most of the comments come clearly from men who are tired to hear the same meme over and over again about ‘ women have it worse’ or ‘ how defective guys are ‘ so popular in modern mainstream mass media, like this article. The summary is in few words If you dont do like I say, you are a child. So it is patronizing and limiting for men (and everybody else) because, nobody has the right to tell what people should do. And especially trying to infantile who doesent fall into the… Read more »
Hi Liz,
I’m sorry to say that binary argumentative comments are the rule of thumb on the internet and the comments sections here at GMP are no different. I hope you will consider a different lens. Consider our site from the standpoint of the articles alone, as it is the universe of article here, not the comments, which best reflect what the Good Men Project is trying to do. The comments are more like one long unrelenting bar fight which both sides of the gender wars seems to not be able to get enough of. Ever.
Hi Mark, You’re definitely right about the typical internet comments. I appreciate this site for what it is and I find the articles to be very well written and, to be blunt, exactly what both men and women need to hear and need to acknowledge. My comment was out of frustrating that the good of the website is being ignored or not understood by many people, and men in this case, using the comments section as a forum to rag about the women who’ve hurt them or their grievances about women in general instead of reflecting on the article. There… Read more »
“My comment was out of frustrating that the good of the website is being ignored or not understood by many people, and men in this case, using the comments section as a forum to rag about the women who’ve hurt them or their grievances about women in general instead of reflecting on the article” That still doesn’t mean they hate women. This is a site for men, you, a woman, coming into this site to not only dismiss but insult their comments as hating women is utterly disgusting. Show me where the men are who hate women? There are a… Read more »
Hi I feel the same. The is a great website but the comments some men make are filled with hate for women. So why not express these feelings in words? How do women harm you? I am well aware that there is a competion to get the “best ” women and some men win over others. But how is it women’s fault if you have less education,less skill to get a well payed job,lower status in society, or maybe lack social skill to deal with women to get all your emotional needs met. Tell us why you are so filled… Read more »
Your patronizing tone isn’t appreciated. These men are tired of being talked down too and you are doing just that. They don’t hate women and they are tired of being accused of that every time they stand up for themselves. How about you prove you don’t hate men so you could have fun trying to prove a negative.
These games need to stop.
Im a bit curious how you concluded that most of the comments around here are from men who hate women.
Exactly what in your book is indicative of being hateful of women.
And I’m serious.
From what I’ve seen the bar for “hateful of women” can be as low as disagreeing with a woman.
Its a vicious cycle I know but I think one thing that will help is to clear things up so that we are just going around and pointing fingers at people and calling them hateful at the first sign of disagreement.
While not every comment on this site is about hating on women, there are many. And seemingly from men who have a very big chip on their shoulder they’d like to blame most women for. One example today was a guy saying that women are shallow b*tches because some had height preferences, just one of many examples. I don’t see how a height preference for women is any different from a thin preference for men, but that’s a whole other can of worms. I am all for people talking about how they feel, but throwing out hurtful generalizations like that… Read more »
And seemingly from men who have a very big chip on their shoulder they’d like to blame most women for. I think this comes from the fact that in some capacity women actually are to blame for some of the chip that men have on their shoulders. And it also doesn’t help that these guys are coming from being told that when it comes to responsibility for the mess women have no responsibility but men do. One example today was a guy saying that women are shallow b*tches because some had height preferences, just one of many examples. I don’t… Read more »
“Explaining something from a male perspective is already largely considered wrong in the first place unless its just to agree with women.”
According to who? I love men and I value their opinions and want to hear how they feel about things; it’s not my fault, nor any other woman’s, if the man thinks he can’t talk about how he feels. I for one am all ears when a man wants to tell me his side of things. It’s possible to have a mature, conflict-free discussion about male and female perspectives if generalizations and finger-pointing are left out of it.
According to who? Women, feminists, women’s advocates, men, …..take your pick (of course I’m sure you know I don’t mean all of either of those subsets). it’s not my fault, nor any other woman’s, if the man thinks he can’t talk about how he feels I didn’t say it was their fault. What I am saying is that when men speak up there are those that try to shut them up, just like any other group of people. It’s possible to have a mature, conflict-free discussion about male and female perspectives if generalizations and finger-pointing are left out of it.… Read more »
“While not every comment on this site is about hating on women, there are many. ” Not the majority, and in fact some of your comments have been quite generalizing and in fact hateful to many of the men here when you state most of the comments on this page are clearly of people who hate men. You’re acting no better than those you are trying to call out. “I am all for people talking about how they feel, but throwing out hurtful generalizations like that is completely unnecessary and frustrating, especially after you try to explain things from a… Read more »
Sorry Liz but do you hate men? you picked a comment which asks why the article only focuses on men and doesn’t mention women in the same boat asking about a bias That’s a logical and legitimate concern and doesn’t mean he hates men it means he think the article is bias Women who party and get drunk doing the same things this article says are unmanly should be in the same boat but aren’t mentioned in this article, its well known that this site is bias against men in this area as women are often seen as “independent” but… Read more »
“force them into becoming family men and therefore productive members of society.”
Does this definition of “good” also apply to women? Are single women exloring their own interests and hobbies therefore not-“good”?
Is it fair to objectify men for what they do for others, rather than who they are as a human being?
The irony here is that very little of this is actually the fault of feminism. Some of it is: women entering the workforce was always going to drive down wages, lowering single men to the lowest rung of our society. It is also to blame for men falling behind in school — you can’t focus 100% of your energy on gender and then hope that the magical patriarchy will come by and set things right for the other gender (particularly when you never bothered to prove that patriarchy was a real thing in the first place). They are responsible for… Read more »
A classic “First World” problem – how can I find a man who perfectly matches the exhaustively detailed list of criteria I have for a potential mate? You know, just someone who is as good as the men from back in the golden age, the era I don’t really know much about except that the men must have been better then because I see no redeeming qualities in the men in my own society, and of course my criteria are unassailable, so the problem must be half of the world’s population, not me. How does that song go? “Fairy tales… Read more »
@ Wellokaythen
Well said.
American women are way too picky, even though most of them aren’t exactly prize catches themselves.
As an introvert, I never let anyone else define what masculinity means to me. I took tidbits from here and there, but I spun them to make them my own. I guess that means I don’t really care what everyone else thinks about me or my masculinity. I talk with my full mind, think with my full soul, love with my full heart, and laugh with my full lungs. I guess that brought about some strange sort of confidence, because low and behold, I met someone and she makes me feel great, and apparently I do the same for her… Read more »
The divorce rate and male marital infidelity rate are both hovering around 20% now – both are on the serious DECLINE. Let’s give men some credit, eh? If I have a dedicated man who wants to spend his off-hours goofing around on the internet, who cares? I’m not going to begrudge him that!
Great article, Harris. You definitely have some very valid points about what defines masculinity and manliness; yesteryear versus today where (some) men are living in a perpetual state of childhood, without accountability, playing video games, reading comic books, and generally revolting against all things that spell ‘grown up’, even though the world, and their life is changing and demanding that they step up and take responsibility for whatever and wherever they fit into the world and their life as a whole. Times have changed, technology has changed – why then can’t (some) men adjust to the changes that affect their… Read more »
” . You definitely have some very valid points about what defines masculinity and manliness; yesteryear versus today where (some) men are living in a perpetual state of childhood,” Yup do this or you are a child. That a very “progressive” way of thinking, right? “playing video games, reading comic books, and generally revolting against all things that spell ‘grown up’, even though the world, and their life is changing and demanding that they step up and take responsibility for whatever and wherever they fit into the world and their life as a whole.” Good and thats how it is… Read more »
So… exactly when do you think women got the right to vote?
Hint: IT was way, way, way before the Civil Rights Act. All of that ‘Women got the right to vote after black men!!!!” BS you sometimes here is beyond dishonesty. Sure, they had the constitutional ‘right’ before women did. It’s just that black men were just castrated, hung from trees and burnt alive if they tried exercise that right.
The difference between ‘on paper’ and ‘in real life’ is one that feminism has long struggled with.
The problem is a much more fundamental one Its simply that men value/desire/want women more than the other way round. For 100’s of years women have ‘fallen behind’ men in every area: education, wealth, power, social influence/status. Yet never did the thought pervade the collective male conscious that women don’t measure up to them, are irrelevant or unwanted. This is because women had some inherent value to men just by virtue of being women. Its only been a few decades since men have started to struggle and fall behind women and these voices are already coming from women namely “men… Read more »
Its simply that men value/desire/want women more than the other way round.
Indeed, and this is one of the biggest reasons for female advantage in the dating market.
I dont think thats the right way to look at it. Women are used to seeing men as equals or better than them in the areas you mention.
Tim:
I suspect you don’t know that this is not a hypothetical scenario if you switch the genders. It came to the surface after the earthquake on Haiti in January 2010 when it became known that the UN were distributing food to women only.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123202099
http://www.salon.com/2010/01/14/haiti_women_children/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/un-sets-up-womenonly-food-aid-in-haiti-1884361.html
And the press had the nerve to act shocked — shocked, I tell you! — that men were stealing the food rather than lying down quietly to die, the way all “Good” men should.
Most people want dating and love, the genders will always want each other for many people. I doubt we’ll see a time where either gender is seen as less desired to the other, even in patriarchy most of the men desired their women so much that they wanted to protect them, old sexist ideals of women being less capable (which are very harmful) I’d say were largely born from the higher reliance on physical strength in the past so men were seen as having to protect their women more, provide for their women whilst women’s ability to look after kids… Read more »
The idea that men want/desire women more than the other way round is, in my opinion, a fallacy. Women have equal if not superior sex drives to men. We can have sex multiple times and achieve orgasms multiple times, with less of an energy commitment than that of men. It costs us less to achieve an orgasm, and we can reignite our sex drive faster. Historically, this meant we could have frequent sex with multiple partners, thereby ensuring the strongest of the competing sperm made it to the egg and created a strong, healthy baby. There is evidence that suggests… Read more »
Women have equal if not superior sex drives to men. Sorry, but I’m not buying it. Jules once mentioned a TV special he watched on prostitution, where a male prostitute quit his job because he was unable to find sufficient work. If it were really true that women had equal or superior sex drives to men, what accounts for the explosive growth in porn? What accounts for the exponential growth of the PUA/Game industry for men, but nowhere near the same kind of industry for women? Why are prostitutes/call girls in demand for men, but not nearly as much the… Read more »
I don’t place the blame on feminism but the messages today’s young men and women received during their youth were far different depending upon which restroom you went into. My daughter was singled out from very early on and consciously groomed because she showed an aptitude for math and science. The level of encouragement and multiple programs available to grow her interest were quite large. My son, who was two years ahead of her, never got that kind the attention or support even though he always had the same math and science aptitude (he’s in engineering school now). They both… Read more »
Indeed, those of us who aren’t Gen X or Baby Boomers have a very different life experience from those who are. For my entire life, any woman or girl who managed to shore bare competence in something is praised for it to high heaven — ‘You Go Girl!’ and ‘Girl Power!’ have been the battle cry for an entire generation. Men who are well above average regularly received no praise at all for it. We tell our daughters that they can do anything. We tell our sons to trim their ambitions and suck it up. Women commit violence, and are… Read more »
Lame, false nostalgia. There have never been more good men than there are today.
I’m a woman and I agree with this.
Did I read that Hymowitz quote correctly, that she’s complaining about “responsible self-reliance”? I have no desire to give up responsible self-reliance if such a thing causes too many others too much stress. Sorry if my independence bothers you, but I’m keeping it, thank you very much. A lot of the anxiety is about developments that are actually POSITIVE developments, some of which I would hate to see reversed. As for getting married and having children as milestones of achievement, they are hardly reliable signs of maturity or individual merit. You can get married at a drive-through in Vegas, and… Read more »
yeah, I think that’s why I liked this post so much. Basically, he calls them out for being the ones trying to define what makes a man a “mature man” and in reality that’s bullshit. It’s oppressive, stereotyping and it’s also bad for women, if you think about it. I mean, bad enough that men are somehow supposed to be married/having kids by a certain age. But that also means that women have to go along with that (unless they’re adopting as single or same-sex partnered people). Let people alone, society. Let men do what they want in their own… Read more »
These lists of “Do’s” and “Don’ts” for “Real Men” all boil down to the same kind of argument: “don’t do it, because important people like me don’t like it.” Authors can dress it up as generational indictments and socio-political critique and quasi-academic rationalizations, but in most cases it just boils down to “because I said so.” After articles like the Hymowitz piece, I’m always left with the question, “I should listen to your preferences because….?” BTW, working at Starbucks gets a bad rap. Sure, you won’t get rich being an entry-level barista, but as far as service sector jobs go,… Read more »
Thanks Wellokaythen, IMO there is no malice in this. But the people who engage in this behaviour they do so because of cultural imput or tradition. For decades male behaviour has been under scrutiny and only, for the most part highlighting the negative aspect of maleness. And today they fall into this paradigm as a habit. Unable to break it. And by the way, its a easy way to get attention. If you criticize women, you are a misogynist. So better pick on men. About hobbies, I follow Aleister Crowley’s advice, do what you wilt. Naturally dont harm others and… Read more »
Wow, quoting Alistair Crowley. You know the kinds of things he was into, right? The growing worry about the “manboy” is partly driven by fear. The older ways of shaming men into conformity just don’t seem to work as well as they used to, and that has a lot of people with power and authority scrambling to find a replacement. The whole “man up!” and “be a real man!” tactics just don’t have the same impact they used to. Some effect still, of coruse, but more and more people use them ironically or jokingly. Some people, like Hymowitz perhaps, are… Read more »
“Wow, quoting Alistair Crowley. You know the kinds of things he was into, right? ” LoooL Good old Aleister? he is famous, but ceremonial magick, use of drugs and orgies. Not to mention parasite on other people expense etc is not me. But I find in this case the quote fitting. A man (or a person) should not be forced or shamed into a role in life he is not interested in having. If he wants to work as cleaning personel and play computer games after. Thats his business. Not anybody else. And men comes in all shapes and attitudes,… Read more »
correction: feminist women, should have been, SOME feminist women (and men).
BTW, I’m not putting Crowley down. There’s no crime in being weird. I even admire him a little bit, because he clearly danced to the beat of his own drummer. In fact, if the drugs, orgies, etc. are all consensual I say go for it. It’s just, as a source of a quote, he’s kind of an obscure, oddball source, fair to say. Not an historical figure I’d expectto hear from on the GMP. Goes to show I shouldn’t jump to conclusions about where people are coming from. : – )
LoL Wellokaythen, Crowley was indeed a eccentric and there is no shame in that, and as you mention so long is consensual there is no alarm from me. But beside that he was also the precursor of the 60’s youth flowerpower movement. And lot what he said (and I feel save to also put Anton Delavey in) is also compatible with feminism. Im thinking of non conformism and more or less the free progressive thinking both of them had : be true to yourself, do what you wilt, dont let others tell you what to do etc. But one being… Read more »
“The growing worry about the “manboy” is partly driven by fear.” Yes. Some of that fear is the kind you allude to. The other kind of fear is from people who are afraid for the men involved. Two of the seven young guys In know best (16 thru 24) are doing OK. One has already been hospitalized for suicide attempts, two are apathetic and disengaged, one seems determined on a course that is self-destructive and invests nothing in himself, and the last is locked in a battle with himself that he seems unlikely to win. I am afraid of attending… Read more »
The traditional career and life paths for young men of the past are gone, but there is nothing in today’s culture to take its place. Some rare individuals know what their life calling is from a very early age but most don’t. Now young men can’t even look at examples of the past for guidance because the old, get married and support the wife and kids with a factory job days are gone (for better or worse), never to return. And as is the topic in several other articles, the educational systems they went through was all full of girl… Read more »
Not to sound all woo-woo, but is it always a bad thing not to have a total life path all laid out for you? Being currently without a long-term direction is not completely a bad thing. Sure, it’s bad for the people who demand I have such a thing, but perhaps their disappointment is THEIR problem, not mine.
Men have indeed changed… but we haven’t changed the way women WANTED us to, which is why so many of them are complaining about the new paths we’re exploring for ourselves. Because it seems to them that we’re not making these changes with women’s best interests in mind.
Well guess what? We’re not. And women have no say–none whatsoever–in how men choose to redefine themselves and their place in society. Get used to it.
I agree with much here. The idea that we have lost our way as men because we have become a much more diverse group of human being is disgusting. At the same time we can’t ignore the fact that so many are questioning what really matters. The answer is not to go backwards, as so many might claim. It’s to go forward in our diversity and find meaning, and conversation, despite the 21st challenges of being a man no matter who and what we are.
whilst female websites prescribe to women how they can ‘have it all’, so-called men’s sites such as this obsess themselves with outlining how inferior men are, and generate quick-fix lists on how they can be more acceptable to women.
Warren Buffet is so wealthy in comparison to Lil Wayne ($50 billion to $95 million), that if Warren were being paid interest on his money, he would be able to buy all of Wayne’s assets from the interest on his $50 billion. Warren is so rich if all of Wayne’s money were to fall to the floor in front of Buffet, it would not be worth his time to pick it up. He would lose more money stopping to gather the wealth than he would make doing anything else in the same amount of time. Warren is several orders of… Read more »
Thaddeus, awesome comment!
What an incredible insight from both you and Gint. Thanks!
In my experience as a community college instructor, I’ve seen plenty to agree with a lot that has been written here. I work in an urban, lower-middle to lower class environment, and we get a variety of age groups. Men in their mid-20’s, even the ones with jobs, are lost, confused about their roles, and they mask their confusion with all sorts of “interests” in things that only distract them from finding what they need. At the college, they exist among women who outnumber them, and while the women aren’t necessarily any more skilled, they have a higher level of… Read more »
Gint …
and there it is …
All guys, nope … an awful lot, sadly. Far too often, they seem to be sleep-walking through their own lives, detached, disengaged, de-motivated, and slightly delusional.
Should we be accepting of this – I don`t know …
Thanks for providing your observations here.
I absolutely agree with Harris’ assertion that,”The difference between a boy and a man is about the mind as much as about the body.” I think that is the case for both men and women. As a society we are so fixated on what masculinity should LOOK LIKE that we completely lose sight of the fact that it really has very little to do with outward appearances and almost everything to do with how a person behaves in a given situation.
Kathryn- I second that. There are more differences between men and women than an outfit or a role. What I’d like to hear from men, instead of looking back on the good-ole days or bad-ole days and trying to squeeze men into a passé stereotypes, is how do men want to move forward? Obviously there are a plethora of gender-identity issues starting in early childhood for both boys and girls. I’d be willing to invest time or effort into a good man project and I’m sure other women feel the same, but randomness doesn’t yield results. Since this is a… Read more »
Joan, what a fabulous question!
Erin, it seems as if some people want to go backwards, some want to stand still, and some want to move forward. I’m one who’d rather move forward, I suspect you are too.
I challenge men who want progress, with a question.
If I were king for a day, what top 3 issues would I tackle on behalf of men?
P.S. I challenge others to suspend their criticism or judgment when a man speaks his mind.
Joan,
Now I see where you are coming from. I also love that posture – you are absolutely right: it’s about moving forward.
I take no issue with a man who speaks his mind – that’s what this is all about! But when men (or anyone, really) places blame with one part of society for all of the social ills we suffer, I do take issue with that. Identify the problem (like you said – top issues) and then MOVE FORWARD. The blame and insult game serves only to further divide us all.
Melissa, I’m confused.
” But when men (or anyone, really) places blame with one part of society for all of the social ills we suffer, I do take issue with that. ”
But, but, but … Patriarchy
Melissa, we all see a myriad of problems in gender-issues. Many men are justified in their frustration. I originally saw this site a good place to learn about men’s concerns and it’s since spiralled into a male-female bashing site and female-female bashing site. Just like Katheryn mentioned, most of the cattyness she’s experienced in her life has been from other women. That’s my experience too. As women I know we can set a better example by supporting our fellow women and men too.
I originally saw this site a good place to learn about men’s concerns and it’s since spiralled into a male-female bashing site and female-female bashing site.
how long have you been here. ive only seen your name for about a month
Jameseq says, I’ve been reading the stories for over a year or so. There is a least one other person with my name, but I haven’t talked to her in a couple months.
but its okay when women blamed men and patriarchy???
No. It’s not okay, in my opinion. Simply because we had a different social structure 50 + years ago, doesn’t mean all men were oppressive patriarchs and all women were oppressed by their home-family responsibilities. Most women took classes, learned skills, and read books and took pride in being a good homemaker. That was her livelihood and life revolved around family. Men’s responsibilities were to provide for his family, no matter what the cost and he took pride in being a good provider. But in the 50s-60’s, our history of slavery and the anti-male, anti-oppressor, anti-white sentiment, anti-establishment, anti-VN war,… Read more »
Out of curiosity, why are you using the past tense of blaming?
Glad you asked. Firstly I think a key step in moving forward as a man is to break the bonds that held us in those supposed good old days in the first place. And by break them I mean total freedom, not just the parts that make others feel good. For example I’d like to see the day where a man can actually protect himself from an attacking woman and not be shamed for it (or more specifically not be shamed into taking attacks/abuse from a woman) I’d like to see dads that when they take up parenting they are… Read more »
I agree Danny, talking about the list presented it’s nothing new. This is how men have always been presented. The only difference from yesterday and today, are maybe the emotional factor. Otherwise there isnt anything new. This is not the list of modern maleness but ancient posed as modern. Practically the masculine codex has always centered around self suppression and goal seeking, How about instead, be yourself and do what you will?
Danny – Check. I’m taking notes.
Danny, thanks for answering Joan’s question! I am very open to hearing other’s responses. Heck. I somehow think this needs to be a seperate discussion even where GMP poses Joan’s question to the whole website.
The immediate pessimism surrounding a mans actions when there is an unknown variable as if all men are somehow evil.
And
Allowing men to be see as vulnerable enough to elicit desire/ good emotions from others and for those others to recognize the vulnerability and act on those desires/ good emotions instead of not caring about men’s feelings or acting as if men don’t need compliments or thanks.
Allowing men to be see as vulnerable enough to elicit desire/ good emotions from others and for those others to recognize the vulnerability and act on those desires/ good emotions instead of not caring about men’s feelings or acting as if men don’t need compliments or thanks.
Or acting as if the fact that men like compliments and thanks is “begging for cookies” so to speak.
“Since this is a men’s site,” — sorry just spat my tea out laughing at that.
I can tell HOW much of a men’s site this is is by the leagues of female contributors and commentators prescribing lists to men about how THEY want to BEHAVE.
Great article. Makes complete sense to me. I do worry, however, that in our pursuit of “manliness” that we are ignoring our “humanness.” That is, after all, the one thing we all have in common with everyone, everywhere. I’d rather people identify as human beings first than men or women, or gay or straight or bi or trans or boss or employee or rich or college educated or white or black or latino or chinese or whatever. All of that stuff just separates us from each other and drives each one of us farther away from who we fundamentally are:… Read more »
Its simple. Men are changing and change is hard. Just like nearly any other group in the history of humankind when a major shift happened it was painful for a lot of people. This time its men’s turn (but honestly I think a lot of that pain is coming not from just men themselves but from men and women that simply do not like the fact that we are figuring out that masculinity has been denied its full value for a very long time). But…. A man accepts and manages his responsibilities, to himself, to his family and to his… Read more »
Those are Harris’ ideas of what a man is, and I think the point of the whole exercise is not to be specific about those defining characteristics, but rather to point out how it’s more about the internal self and give examples of those.
Harris is not the first person to make such a list with such ideals. And if it’s not about being specific then why the “….or else he is a boy” condition on most of them? I’m all for trying to encourage men to work on themselves internally but just like with other groups we have to be mindful of trying to switch out one set of defining expectations out for another.
Honestly, I don’t think making lists like the one DNL wrote have any use anymore. He may have genuinely meant well by it, but should a list like this not also apply to women or does he have different expectations of them? I mean could we not substitute every instance of “man” and “boy in that list with “woman” and “girl” (along with all the gendered pronouns) and not have the list be equally valid? If that is the case, then why not simply make that list gender neutral and instead of “man” and “boy” put “adult” and “child”? I… Read more »
Why having a list at all? The “10 commandments” of masculinity is just a artificial wish list made by somebody who wants to squeeze males into a subservient role in the society. I question everybody who show up dreaming of a new male model. Honestly, guys are getting out from the ancient cage just to get into another cage? IMO? a “real” man, has to do what pleases him. If he want to be a firefighter or play video games all day long. Its all good, so long nobody is harmed or law’s broken. A man exist in craft of… Read more »
“Why having a list at all?” “Do what thou wilt” sounds cool, but any society that actually followed that teaching would crumble fast. I think its essential for any society to have certain expectations of how adults should behave. Many of those might be what we consider common sense, (Being responsible for yourself, not being ruled by impulses, etc), but the expectations are there. Do we expect children to children to share these values? In most cases yes, to a certain degree. But with children theres an understanding that they are still growing, learning what it means to be truly… Read more »
You know, ““Do what thou wilt”” and do what we tell you to do, is the difference from the free world and a dictatorship. Granted there should be some directives on how adults should behave, but not a la do this or you are a child. Who are you (general you) to dictate people how they should behave and what they are ? People can choose by themselves, I f I want to be a musician instead of a doctor, why should a bunch of fools feel entitled to label me as a boy? I am perfectly capable to make… Read more »
“Granted there should be some directives on how adults should behave, but not a la do this or you are a child.” And this is basically all I’m saying. But more then general directives, there are of course certain values we should expect adults to have in order to have a well run society. In general, I don’t have a problem with most of the rules DNL was putting forth, but rather the delivery of them and the way he gendered the list. Thats why for my examples, I used some of the same ones that NL did, (responsibility, not… Read more »
I actually think the list Harris created can easily be applied to men and women, in different ways. And I think it’s actually a very positive and healthy list. I don’t see what is so negative or outdated about it. A man should manage his reponsibilities. A man should have discipline and self-control. These are attractive traits in either gender. A man should have boundaries and maintain them out of respect to himself and others. A man should fight for his goals. Whether it’s the goal to be a doctor or to own a comic book store, to write a… Read more »
Erin as a guy this list comes off as just another case of “Real men…”. Yes those are admirable qualities but its not the qualities themselves that are problematic but the delivery system. It’s presented in a list of “you should be doing this or you are not a man”. I’m wondering if the difference in the receptions of this list is splitting down gender lines (women saying there’s nothing wrong with it and guys saying there is something wrong with the delivery of it). And honestly Erin I like your delivery better than the one Harris gives in the… Read more »
Danny, I don’t know if there is a “list” but I know there have been multiple books and magazine articles written about how to be a “good wife” or a “good mother.” There was a point not that long ago where they actually offered college level classes on it…One that springs to mind was a list from the 1950s that recently made the rounds again from Readers Digest about what was expected of a “real” woman to keep her husband and children happy…some of the things on the list included making sure the children were fed and in bed before… Read more »
Theres nothing about the list that necessarily offends me, but you said it yourself Erin, these traits should be found in people of both genders. So whats the point of saying “A man should…”? And as Danny pointed out, not only does he make a distinction that this is a list for males, but the contrast between “men” and “boys” just reinforces old attitudes. This list may be more “modern”, but at the end of the day its wrapped in the same sort of language we’ve been hearing for years. Men have specific things expected of them and if they… Read more »
Jack, what is the harm is saying “A man should…”? As long as the ideas don’t stereotype him into a small box . I don’t think Harris’ list stereotypes men into a small box. Most of his list surrounds a few small principals: Be respectful of yourself, be respectful of others, think about others, take care of your responsibilities, have goals in life and work to accomplish them. I have noticed that some men around GMP complain when women are talked about on this website. Some will even chime in and say, “but what about men”. Others take issue when… Read more »
Jack, what is the harm is saying “A man should…”? As long as the ideas don’t stereotype him into a small box . I don’t think Harris’ list stereotypes men into a small box. Most of his list surrounds a few small principals: Be respectful of yourself, be respectful of others, think about others, take care of your responsibilities, have goals in life and work to accomplish them. Not stereotyping, but adding a “……or else you’re a boy” condition to some of the? Here is an article that talks to men about what men should or could be doing on… Read more »
@ Erin I agree with you regarding this specific post. I didn’t find anything really offensive or egregious, nor did I think that it was inappropriate to specifically address men That being said… Harris has a well earned reputation for being a male basher and constant defender of and apologist for women. Never in ANY of his posts does he criticize female behavior, and even though men are his presumed audience, he frequently shames them with feminist blogosphere style logic. Which likely means that men aren’t his true audience. Most male commenters on GMP have a hard time trusting Harris… Read more »
Never in ANY of his posts does he criticize female behavior…. Actually I’d be fine if it were just him not criticizing female behavior. No Harris goes the extra mile of denying the existence of female behavior. …he frequently shames them with feminist blogosphere style logic…. Would explain why you’d be hard pressed to find a feminist that doesn’t retweet and praise him with undying love. Which likely means that men aren’t his true audience. Most male commenters on GMP have a hard time trusting Harris because of his track record. What makes me wonder about his intended audience is… Read more »
IMO the goal of Harris is to appeal to the female audience, doing so he poses as he speak for men and to men. Simply surfing on modern days narratives about women angelity and defectiveness of men.
Honestly, I rarely see the female audience criticizing DNL so I suspect they also buy into the gender myth exploited by Harris. And im puzzled by this.
Actually I’d be fine if it were just him not criticizing female behavior. No Harris goes the extra mile of denying the existence of female behavior. – See more at:
Exactly.
If you were to learn about women solely from reading his articles, you would think they were perfect angels.
Almost like he isn’t interested in helping men but so much as preaching at men,.
Yup, preach at men and get pats on the back from cheerleaders, including those who are supposedly pro-male.
(not going to mention names. You know who you are)
*feminist cheerleaders*
You’re actually dead wrong.
Harris has, a number of times, criticized the way some women treat some men – using them, bullying, ignoring, etc. He just doesn’t say “all women” do that. His point is that there are asshole women in the world. He never denies that.
Also, can’t stop laughing at Harris being a woman-apologist.
Like that’s a thing. “I apologize for women.”
“For women doing what?”
“Nothing, just for women. I apologize for them.”
Harris has, a number of times, criticized the way some women treat some men – using them, bullying, ignoring, etc. Oh really? Maybe on paging Dr. Nerdlove he has (I don’t bother to read his own site), but would you care to provide a link to one of his articles on GMP where he does just that? His point is that there are asshole women in the world. He never denies that. – He does acknowledge that there are asshole women. HOWEVER (and this is a big however), he dismisses their relevance/importance, writing them off as “just assholes, so f*ck… Read more »
Well, I can’t speak for Marcus, but I just want to provide proper attribution for my “born again” remark!
“Harris has, a number of times, criticized the way some women treat some men – using them, bullying, ignoring, etc. He just doesn’t say “all women” do that. His point is that there are asshole women in the world. He never denies that.”
Yes, but when he talk about men, he always talk abut most men do that. While not all women do that, only few. Notice how its so stupid and sexist?
Erin, I have no problem with an article focusing on the problems of a specific gender. There are certain problems that men are facing that should addressed separately and the same holds true for women. In fact I didn’t have much problem with this article until the end and even then I’m not in any way offended, I just feel like the sort of language being used needs to be retired. He talked about the outdated model of masculinity and how that was often defined in opposition to women. He then says this lead to frustration when women became social… Read more »
“I have noticed that some men around GMP complain when women are talked about on this website. Some will even chime in and say, “but what about men”
Its funny you always talk about this but never complained when the gender is reversed, when women talking about “what about womenzzzzzzzzzzzzz in men article.” Remember how HeatherN wrote in FIRST comment in article about 5 things women don’t know about men, how women have it worst? Because shes a woman , not man, you dont want to complain about that?
@ Erin 10:17 “A man should manage his reponsibilities. ” “A man should fight for his goals.” “He should not fear judgement from others ” “A man should have a sense of purpose. ” “A man should want to grow in his lifetime and not just seek immediate gratification. ” Based on what I’ve read in the mainstream press, it is not that they don’t manage their responsibilities, it’s that they don’t accept any, or structure their lives to have any (video games in Mom’s basement). As Gint mentions below, they don;t have goals, or at least none that have… Read more »