With So Many Contradictions About What it Means be a Good Man, I Can’t Blame them for Leaving.
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Almost thirty years ago Bonnie Tyler sang the iconic song Holding Out for a Hero. It was a smash hit. It was featured in the iconic movie Footlose and reached #31 in the top selling singles in 1985. It has also been an anthem for many a woman’s celebration – such as Bachelorette parties and girls night’s out. It’s also a celebrated anthem for many a drag queen get-together.
In case you don’t remember, the song starts with the lyrics “Where have all the good men gone?”. The song goes on to ask about other problems in finding ‘good men’ such as when it asks “where’s the streetwise Hercules to fight the rising odds” and also “Isn’t there a white knight upon his fiery steed?” Based on the songs popularity, these questions apparently resonated for a lot of people at the time (and have since). Apparently Good men have been hard to find even since thirty years ago – and still are.
Recently When I look around and see that 1/3 of America is fatherless and as of 2011, 48% of children born in the U.S. are born to single mother homes, I can’t help but wonder where have all the good men gone?
Where Have All The Good Men Gone?
I don’t think it’s any coincidence that Bonnie Tyler sang this song in 1984 shortly after the feminist movements of the ‘60’s and ‘70’s. When the feminist movements of the ‘60’s and ‘70’s occurred it changed women’s roles dramatically – and for good reason. Women were (and still are in many ways) marginalized, misrepresented and did not share many of the same privileges as their male counterparts did. Through the feminist movements, women’s “traditional” roles were challenged. Women became more empowered, more recognized, and their subtle oppression was brought to the fore and became a center stage. In my eyes, the feminist movement was a welcome, necessary movement. I also believe there’s still a lot to do.
Because of the Feminist Movement, Men’s Roles Have Changed, Too.
But because women’s roles have changed so dramatically over the last half century, it necessarily means that men’s roles have changed too. As a marriage counselor in Denver, when I counsel a couple where one of the spouse’s roles has changed (e.g. as a result of job loss, job change, child birth, etc.) the other partner’s role necessarily changes whether they like it or not. For example, if the wife is primarily responsible for cooking meals for the family but suddenly gets a promotion that requires a lot of travel and time away, the husband necessarily needs to pick up more responsibilities around the home to compensate for the wife’s change in responsibilities. If the couple struggles to make these adjustments, it causes problems in the relationship and usually brings couples in to my office.
It seems to me that on a national level, men’s roles have been affected by the relatively recent change in women’s roles brought on by the feminist movement. Men used to have role models such as Ward Cleaver of Leave it to Beaver or Tom Brady of The Brady Bunch that showed them what exemplary men and fathers were like. However, the messages from the feminist movement have taught us that these men were oppressive and overly privileged.
In an article in the Father’s section about “Why are Father’s Opting Out of Fatherhood?” it states that unfortunately, no other men have risen up to take Ward Cleaver’s or Tom Brady’s place. Fathers such as Homer Simpson, Al Bundy and Stan Smith have filled our TV screens but have received criticism for their being bad role models and being bad dads. Other dads such as and Danny Tanner on Full House and Tim ‘The Tool Man’ Taylor also filled our TV screens as exemplar fathers and husbands but were criticized for being ‘too traditional’ (even though Danny Tanner was a single dad). So men who do try to step up as examples of being good men are shot down for being ‘too traditional’.
When did Women’s Rights Mean that Men are Disposable?
Fortunately, women’s roles have changed a lot since the days of June and Ward Cleaver. They’re no longer expected to be home cooking in heels, an apron and pearls while their men are out working. They’re also no longer expected to be the submissive wife. I think it’s great that women’s roles have changed so much. They needed to. And there’s still a lot more work to be done. But at what point did women’s rights start leading to half of the children being born to single mothers and 1/3 of America’s homes being Fatherless?
No wonder Bonnie Tyler was singing “where have all the good men gone?’ As a man myself, It’s hard for me to navigate all the contradictory roles I’m supposed to play. I’m supposed to be a hero, a knight in shining armor and a Prince Charming for my wife but I’m also not supposed to be chauvinist or ‘hyper-masculine’. What a contradiction! How can men be a knight in shining armor but not be hyper-masculine? Sorry, Bonnie. I don’t know where all the good men have gone but I can’t blame them for leaving. And the ones who didn’t leave are no longer what you’d call “good men” because they’re not being that “white knight upon the fiery steed” that you’re looking for. They can’t be. That’d be chauvinist.
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Photo Credit: Bigstock.com
Empowering females did not disempower males. If anything it opened up the door for a safe and constructive discussion of sex, gender, race, art, culture etc for all of human race, not just women.
Your comment is a good example why the rise of the Western civilisation was enabled by the cultural practice of keeping women away from the politics of society. Your first sentence betrays a woman’s inability to fully comprehend an objective reality. “Empowering females did not disempower males.” It did. Taking power from a collective, in this case men, and not compensating by also taking power from the complimentary collective, in this case women, leads to an imbalance of power, which means disempowerment of the men. The feminist insanity has never taken into account that in the society women do not… Read more »
@Aaron My recollection of when men became disposable for marriage and parenting is the time period you speak of.In the black community there were two major bell whether events that kicked male disposability into 4g speed.The play, For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide When the Rainbow Isn’t Enough,by Ntozake Shange(I hope I spelled her name right),was the shot across the bow. Years later,The Color Purple, would lead to open warfare between black men and women.The popularity of this rage created economic opportunities for those willing to exploit it.We saw the rise of powerful tv talkshow hosts like, Sally Jesse… Read more »
The mythical past is always better than present-day reality. That’s the whole reason we invent mythical pasts, to criticize things we don’t like about the present. So, of course there are fewer good men today. When you can just pull quantities out of your imagination and act like they’re real, you can make anyone seem rarer today than they were before.
We’re comparing fantasy with reality. Fantasy almost always sounds better, which is the whole point of fantasy…..
I call baloney. Every generation thinks that the best times are behind us, kids today aren’t learning what they’re supposed to, times were different back then, men were men, where have those kind of heroes gone, etc. With all due respect to the older generation, I challenge *anyone* to prove that there are fewer good men today than there have been in the past. I have an open mind about it, and I’m willing to be convinced, but so far what I hear is just people repeating an article of faith over and over again as if it were obviously… Read more »
“Let’s not confuse marital status with parenting, and let’s not confuse cohabitation with parenting.”
In earlier generations there were plenty of absentee and abusive married fathers. Don’t think that in generations where people stayed married longer that therefore they were better parents. Plenty of excellent divorced fathers out there and plenty of horrible married fathers, too many to equate single motherhood with bad fatherhood.
Hi Aaron I posted this on another thread ,but it also have interest here. Since marriage are on decline in Japan,are there similarities in the causes in U.S. and Japan? An article in The Guardian about the causes of why marriage are on decline: ✺” Why have young people in Japan stopped having sex?……. Some experts believe the flight from marriage is not merely a rejection of outdated norms and gender roles. It could be a long-term state of affairs….. demographer Nicholas Eberstadt argues that a distinctive set of factors is accelerating these trends in Japan. These factors include the… Read more »
Hi Iben,
I read that article also. What sprang to my mind was the tendency to create artificial relationships in Japan.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/07/18/us-japan-sex-dolls-idUSSP10422420070718
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/dec/27/japan-men-sexless-love
http://www.trendhunter.com/trends/virtual-girlfriend-pc-game
http://geekologie.com/2012/07/sadness-guy-creates-virtual-girlfriend-h.php
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703632304575451414209658940
Hi John
Thank you.
Japan is unique and not like any onther country.
If Japan had been a little tribe thousands of years ago, this reluctance to breed, to have more children would have been understandable . Severe economic uncertainty, ecologal disasters one after another. Who want to have children in times like that.
Today society are in trouble if it can not reproduce itself. And Japan is not a country that favors immigration and multiculturalism. Maybe they will increase their population by immigration now.
Jameseq , I read Mikes comment too and am not sure why it was removed.
Hi John Anderson When I read the article on GMP that refers to research that showed American men had none friends I was in disbelief and wondered how they had defined friends ? I am divorced myself, and find it is easy to make friends, and know the world is full of persons that wants friendship . Long lasting friendship. I am glad to hear the same happens for men. It is up to us actually, if we want friends and take care of the friendship relationships we have. We talk of friendship families now. Life is give and take.… Read more »
Perhaps some of the discord and confusion surrounding this issue stems from the implicit notion that feminism is one monolithic point of view, to be taken whole or rejected in its totality. I think that feminism has many facets, some of them sound of benefit to society, others hollow and destructive. The good part. Before feminism, women (and men) were type cast. They were, in effect, not permitted to be the best they could be at whatever they chose to do in life. Feminism has lifted these restrictions, to the benefit of women and of society in general. True, this… Read more »
Hi Henry
Well said these words:
✺”Women need to stop asking where the good men have gone and start asking what they can do to encourage men
to goodness, from the days they are born.”✺
Ahhh…yes.
And if you turn that phrase around for a man, he is capable of doing exactly the SAME thing for the women in his life. Be who he is, what he wants to be and encourage and invite her to participate.
Single or married, a man and woman has the ability (responsibility?) to KNOW what they want to invite into their life AND what they will easily live without. It’s the stress of making this commitment that makes men and women waffle around wondering what they are “supposed” to be.
Woah. People feel passionately about this subject, and clearly forums are made for talking, not listening. But here’s my two cents just for fun. As a feminist I don’t think the “good men” have gone anywhere. There may be men out there struggling to find their place, but in true feminist relationships mutual love and respect abounds, and anyone can be a “white knight”, including the female counterpart. I love that I can be a supportive strong partner, and my fella can be sensitive and domestic. We don’t have to exist by the ideals set in the past, we can… Read more »
Beautiful post Heather.
I think you could pretty much sum up this whole where have all the good men gone lament with what I usually read on feminist websites when they talk about parenting / abortion. Men should support the decisions women make as if men don’t or shouldn’t have their own goals, desires, or dreams. When women complain about there being no “good men” they’re really complaining about men refusing to be a tool for women to use to achieve their happiness. When women realize that men are people too with their own goals, desires, and dreams and they start looking at… Read more »
Hi Aaron I have one question . If men aged 30-50 in large number now choose not to marry, then what alternative support network do they have in their life? Another article here on GMP wrote that men do NOT have personal friends. Family is an institution that give us both problems and support, and good times.. Most of us are glad for many of the family members we have. The men that now choose another lifestyle must have close emotional relationships to people that is not family, not wife, not children as an alternative . Is it their friends?… Read more »
Hi Iben, For me, I have two very good male friends who I have kept in touch with for over 30 years. With many of my other male friends who I’ve known for most of my life, I’ve never experienced a problem going back to them for support / help. I had a friend spend 2 years in Mexico and when he came back, we acted like he never left. I went to a bachelor party for a childhood friend and was surprised at the reception I got. Joe, an old friend (and third “big brother”) from grade school and… Read more »
I am so tired of hearing about the “oppressed” women. Feminism in the 60’s was a movement to allow women who wanted the choice of a career to have the same benefits as men for those careers. An early feminist once said that it wasn’t to eliminate the position of women who still wanted to be the home maker, the stay at home mom. But somewhere through the years what I expected would happen and it did happen, women like my wife were berated because they didn’t want a business career. Through the decades of feminism, the question was ever… Read more »
Interesting.
You might want to change ‘Tom Brady’ to ‘Mike Brady’ though. 🙂
It seems that many men still haven’t evolved into the modern masculinity the way that women have evolved into theirs. Men have yet to catch up. The world is changing and many men have not changed and evolved with it. Some men haven’t been able to cope with it and maybe less good men are to be found because of it
@ Selina
Or maybe men’s idea of modern masculinity doesn’t match women’s idea. It seems to me at least according to this article that women’s idea of modern masculinity, “good men”, is the same as it was in the past and women haven’t realized that it has changed.
That’s what I was thinking. It seems that masculinity, like many things, is suffering from a problem where we (as a whole) are hell bent on creating some sort of “norm” that is supposed to be the default that everyone is supposed to strive for and not striving for it or meeting it is a sign that something is wrong with you. So I’m thinking that in the mind of these women that are going on about ‘where have all the good men gone?” the real question they are asking is “Where are all the men that meet MY standard… Read more »
It seems that many women still haven’t evolved into modern femininity the way that men have. Women have yet to catch up. The world is changing and many women have not changed and evolved with it. Some women haven’t been able to cope with it and maybe less good women are to be found because of it. Women are still very much looking for the prince charming. Men are actually told by society that they have to perform to be worthy of love, and that the magnitude of their performance is correlated to their worthiness. It’s different from the message… Read more »
“It’s different from the message women get, which is that they have intrinsic worth. Every time you see a story in which the guy gets the girl, it’s because he just weathered adversity to prove his worth.” What you are discussing here is perspective in movies. The object of affection, whether a woman or a man, is written as having intrinsic worth because the other character working for their affection believes that they are worth it. In real life, not much in the world tells either sex that they are intrinsically worth anything. That’s something an individual usually has to… Read more »
well, said, Andrea. Couldn’t agree more. Men AND women are given messages that they are not of intrinsic worth. It is an individual quest to accomplish. At the same time, in the context we’re talking about here of romantic relationships, I have to agree that men are still given the same message they were 60 years ago BEFORE the feminist movement (not just in media) that in order to “Be a good man” they have to be a hero and hyper-masculine. And in fact, a lot of women still hold on to this belief despite their change in roles. This… Read more »
Por favor Christopher. “Men are actually told by society that they have to perform to be worthy of love, and that the magnitude of their performance is correlated to their worthiness. It’s different from the message women get, which is that they have intrinsic worth.” What movie are you watching? Females are constantly told “by society” that they have to be beautiful to be worthy of love (physically) and the extent of their beauty will correlate with the quality of man and lifestyle they can expect. Truth is, we get mixed messages on many counts, one day we are told… Read more »
Men have yet to catch up. The world is changing and many men have not changed and evolved with it. Some men haven’t been able to cope with it and maybe less good men are to be found because of it Catch up – to what, exactly? I’d agree that men need to evolve, but in gender issues discussions these days there seems to be an unstated expectation that they will evolve into what some feminists think they should be. You do not emancipate a gender by unshackling them, and then immediately shackling them to a different set of expectations.… Read more »
“You do not emancipate a gender by unshackling them, and then immediately shackling them to a different set of expectations.” Yes, a thousand times yes. Or, as an old radical feminist motto put it, “you cannot break your chains by polishing them.” Parts of discussion seem to be headed for the standard “who has it worse” debate. As if there’s a point of pride to wading through more horsesh*t than someone else has to wade through. This is especially lame when a lot of the horsesh*t is stuff we put on ourselves. No one should be trying to claim credit… Read more »
Hi Aaron I posted a comment, but it seems it got lost. I try again. You write: ✺”Recently When I look around and see that 1/3 of America is fatherless and as of 2011, 48% of children born in the U.S. are born to single mother homes, I can’t help but wonder where have all the good men gone?”✺ It is not fair Aaron to describe mothers in cohabiting family forms as single mothers ! It is not correct to write that 48% of children in U.S. are born to single mother homes. Some are single mothers and some are… Read more »
Thats a good point Iben.
Hi Iben,
That’s a good point. Archy makes a good point also in that family courts are biased against fathers so households being headed by single mothers doesn’t mean that the father did not want to parent. That’s how I viewed his statement also.
Hi, Iben.
For clarification, it’s not me who lumps these two groups together. Unfortunately, there’s no way to distinguish through public records which women are cohabiting or which women are single. So unfortunately they just get lumped together. It is an error in recording and it is recognized by anyone who looks at the data. It needs to be recognized that women in committed, long-term cohabiting relationships do not skew the data significantly enough to alter the overall message that the vast majority of this 48% of children are still born to single mothers.
Thanks for making the point, Iben. In Sweden, where we have statistics for absolutely everything( http://www.scb.se ), somewhere like 3-5% of the kids are born to single mothers. The rest is split pretty even between being married or “just” co-habitating. (So this actually supports the statement that less than 50% are married, but that’s pretty far from the rest of them being “single mothers”. What did Mark Twain say about statistics again…?) The only thing the statistics don’t show is the percentage who are engaged. But in my experience among my friends, it’s pretty common to get married when the… Read more »
hi Aaron
I am confused. Are you talking of unmarried women or single mothers.
The link bring us to statistics over umarried mothers, not to mothers that live alone with their kids
Excellent point. An unmarried mother is not the same thing as children without a father!
Whoops, this was supposed to be in response to Kay’s comment above, not freestanding…
mike has been a regular commenter here for years
where is his comment, was it offensive?
other posts that were held, have now appeared.
Thanks for noticing. A little over a year ago one of the editors decided they did not like the content of my posts and about half of my posts have gone missing ever since. I wish there was a way to resolve the situation. On the off chance they are reading this, I’m very reasonable and open to discussion.
@ Mike L Most sites I’ve found filter the content of what is said based on the political views of the site. Granted I don’t see the comments that don’t get approved, but based on what I’ve seen and what I’ve sent that didn’t get past moderation, I’ve surmised that GMP has a progressive / liberal / feminist world view on the whole. I’ve also found GMP to be less restrictive with their content filter than most sites I’ve visited. The one thing I’ve noticed is that everything seems to go into moderation now. regardless of topic and content. What… Read more »
Hi Mike, this is the editor here. would be happy to have you write for me. Go to the about page (here’s the link https://goodmenproject.com/about/) and contact me. I’d be happy to consider your articles.
Anti male bias in courts, make marriage a risky idea where you can potentially lose far more than your fair share in a divorce, have over 50% divorce which is disproportionately initiated by women whilst having a society that has for a long time demonized males and masculinity….don’t be surprised if many men opt out of marriage, families, etc. Fathers get treated like pedophiles at the park, fathers that cannot get access to their children after a divorce, sadly sometimes the courts will be biased against them and there is no shortage of horror stories of how mothers can treat… Read more »
Some will say men are upset at losing privilege n control, but it’s not really that at all. It’s losing the idea of being a needed partner, the idea of being worth something instead of disposable. These men need to know that the family unit can be so many things, it can be 2 working parents, it can be a stay at home dad or mum, it can be a separated couple that jointly looks after the kids. Even if you aren’t together anymore, you can still save up cash for the kids, share the workload, share the financials to… Read more »
You know it’s funny, I have been separated for about 6 months now and I have noticed a few things in my new world. 1) Single women complaining about the lack of good men, too needy, too much baggage, talks to much, spends too much time with his friends, drinks too much, won’t understand that she has kids and can’t spend too much time away from the kids. 2) A horde of decent single dads who no longer care about being in a long term relationship anymore and are just enjoying life after separation. The common theme with these guys… Read more »
@ Luke
One thing I’d like to point out is that I’ve seen the she has a lot of different guys / exposes her children to lots of different men used as a weapon against women in custody cases. Although custody is hard to overturn, it can happen. It may not even be that you’re a dick. It could simply be that you’re not the one or she’s not sure that you are the one. If you could only take one girlfriend to your house, how carefully would you choose?
I think I mentioned I don’t completely disagree, its tricky and I suspect there is no right answer. I happened to be at a working bee a couple of weeks ago and strangely this conversation actually came up. There was a group conversation going and a couple of the single mums were talking about how they don’t introduce a new guy unless they are sure he is solid material and one the other mums said the same thing. When pressed she admitted she had only let two guys meet the kids in over 10 years and her kids are close… Read more »
Good point, Luke. The contradiction about what women men to be is MOST apparent in the dating world. They want a man to treat them equally but still expect men to ask THEM out, to pay for dates, and romance her. It’s often that men have high expectations placed on them and are expected to fit the Hollywood mould of Prince Charming. And when they’re normal everyday guys, they get disappointed that there are no good men. well said.
That’s because “equal” doesn’t always mean “the same”. I am not sure what is hard to understand about that. And seriously, I do not know of any man that doesn’t LOVE it when his partner dresses up in cute little sexy outfit for him or cooks him dinner. And yes, women are infact expected to dress up in cute little sexy outfits for her man then any man is expected to do the same. We are also expected to groom ourselves in ways men are not. Does that mean that men need to dress up in cute little sexy outfits… Read more »
Bravo, Erin. Bravo.
Thanks Steve.
Actually I want to try and find a “cute little outfit” for a man lol, well a something anyway so I can return the favour for my girlfriend and there isn’t a lot of variety out their, not like there are for women, they tend to be more in line with costumes (Tarzan, body builders, strippers etc).
With the caveat that we understand that no one is perfect, and we’re talking about good men having the characteristics, ability, and the general follow-through of heroes / knights in shining armor, there are still plenty of good men around. Things absolutely did shift with the feminists movements, but the article expresses this as one extreme or another, and that’s my main issue with it. The feminist movements – and sites like this one which provide discourse on masculinity – have shifted expectations from one extreme to the center, not to the other extreme. They note that anyone ‘can’ be… Read more »
Thank you, Kenneth! I think yours is the best definition of a good man I have come across so far. I’d just like to add that in today’s society where everybody is allowed to be basically everything they want to be it is important to find out what kind of good man one wants to be. This may be a rather traditional role or a role that leaves the role of the provider to one’s partner. Once the decision is made I think it is important sticking to this chosen role without trying to live up to the contradictory expectations… Read more »
Thank you Kenneth. It is indeed dependent upon the individual and NOT a whole gender. Nicely stated.
Well said Kenneth!
It seems that many men have a bad attitude about the increase in options for women, men have lost a little of the control they have wielded for so long and they are angry. So, we see some passive aggressive behavior followed by the quip, you wanted to be equal. The intent of the women’s movement was never to make men disposable, it was intended to enable women to survive should the male they were depending on decide they were disposable or in the event of a spouse’s death and of course so that women could choose what they wanted… Read more »
Women get more choice in the form of abortion. Men do not have reproductive rights past conception, which is ultimately a failure of our society to protect men’s rights. Men should be able to opt out of parenthood, so should women but when it’s solely the woman’s choice whether to continue or terminate a pregnancy then his choice is non-existent. Now they both should use contraceptive where possible but accidents do happen, contraceptives do fail, but there’s no equality when one has no choice on whether to be a parent. To try shame men and act like they are irresponsible… Read more »
To Archy: Shaming men? Is that what you got from my comment? Interesting. Pretty sure abortion wasn’t discussed. Pretty sure I said “some bail”. Pretty sure I said both parties need to make good choices. Pretty sure I said this is an individual issue (meaning don’t get involved with people who lack character and/or similar values to yours). Pretty sure you have a choice. Keep your pants zipped for those who are not your wife or at minimum, your fiancee.
So no sex except with wives or fiancee?
Does this work both ways?
If not, then you can hardly say women have fewer reproductive options when they have all the control over what happens if they become pregnant.
@ Kay
“It seems that many men have a bad attitude about the increase in options for women, men have lost a little of the control they have wielded for so long and they are angry.”
So why are women upset that men want and at times have received increased options. It seems to me that women who complain about a lack of good men are upset that they can’t have their cake and eat it too.
Huh? Did you just say “You wanted to be equal”?
Yeah. Because for some reason despite saying the women’s movement wasn’t about disposing of men or limiting men’s options for some parts of the women’s movement really do get bent out of shape by men that have started to look beyond their own sexist and restrictive gender roles. Rather than back men that make good choices, like sticking by the side of the children they help create, there seems to be a pushback to actually force men out of their kids’ lives….while at the same time complaining that they aren’t around. This should not be a gender issue, it is… Read more »
@ Kay “Huh? Did you just say “You wanted to be equal”?” Yeah, the person with the short end of the stick usually does. Men are completely screwed over when it comes to family law. Want a baby and your gf wants to abort, tough man up. Don’t want a baby and your gf wants to keep it, man up and pay. Want the baby, your gf doesn’t want to abort, but doesn’t want to pay support either, there’s enough adoption loop holes for her to drive a truck through. Want the kid and your gf does also, but she… Read more »
I think that feminism started out as a women’s empowerment movement and then someone made the bad marketing decision to say it was about equality, when it never truly was. Men said OK.. Women said I want the right to not be a parent (abortion, contraception, etc.). Men said OK, me too whether codified in the law or not. It’s not just that men’s roles have necessarily changed though I think it has. I think men have also changed their roles. When women gave up their traditional duties as mothers and wives, it gave men the go ahead to give… Read more »
John, I am not certain this is exactly what you mean but to me it sounds like you believe that the only reason “good men” ever existed was because of the things women did *first*. Despite the fact that during the times you are referencing, it was men who had a bit more freedom in the world then women did. It was men who made the choices a lot of the time. Is the goodness of men only dependent on what women do? Are men not responsibile for the choices they make? If men stopped being good, that’s on women?… Read more »
@ Erin Yes, women were oppressed, but men were also oppressed in a different way. A position of the MRM is that there is also oppression in forced responsibility. Yes, women could not hold jobs or own property, but that forced men to be responsible for supporting the family and paying the debts. Feminists are usually aware of this (patriarchy hurts everyone, women in the workforce allowed men the opportunity to …), but very rarely make the connection (unless it suits them) that this was oppression also. Where I disagree with the MRM is that they teach that this is… Read more »
Would I rather be a child or an adult? There are days life gets difficult and I’d love to call for mommy and have her deal with it, but on the whole, I’d rather be an adult. I think its more complex than “Would I rather be an adult or child?” To me it seems more like, “Would I rather be held responsible for myself at all times or would I like the freedom to selectively hold others responsible.” That plays to the stereotype that women are by nature good (and men aren’t) and so men should strive to be… Read more »
John, what exactly is “forced responsibility”? Are you saying that men did/do not want the responsibility that is required usually in a family setting? Which leads me to another question. Does having responsibility always equal oppression or forced oppression? What exactly do men expect then? Responsibilities may not always be the most glamorous of things but the existence of responsibilities does not equate to oppression alone. Unless we want a whole society that complete forgoes their responsibilities in favor of always seeking their own personal pleasure in the name of not wanting to be “oppressed”. While men had roles they… Read more »
@ Erin Traditional roles in relation to abortion (full disclosure: I’m pro-choice). When women demanded the right to abortion, they essentially demand that they be able to abrogate their responsibility for getting pregnant. Men have a responsibility for that also, but can’t escape it as women can at least not through abortion (post conception). Mothers also have an opportunity (having borne the children, being aware of their existence, and having possession) to abrogate their responsibility through adoption at times without the consent or knowledge of the father. There is no state I’m aware of that requires a father’s consent. It… Read more »
Well said!
How right you are, at least someone thinks clearly here. Women called for equality and they got it. They rejected their traditional roles and men followed.
Aaron, “I’m supposed to be a hero, a knight in shining armor and a Prince Charming for my wife but I’m also not supposed to be chauvinist or ‘hyper-masculine’.” Wow! So, are you implying it is OK to be a chauvinist? Or hyper masculine? As a man, I do not feel I am suppose to be any of the things you mentioned. I do not believe in hero worship, or being a Prince Charming (though I am quite charming), or a knight in shinning armor. This is all fantasy and part of the unreal romance narrative. I am suppose to… Read more »
Hammurabi, really? It seems like every time I watch a chick flick with my wife or she re-reads Twilight I feel like I’m expected to do some heroic gesture to show my affection…or become a mysterious vampire. And every time I see a Calvin Klein commercial I’m also expected to be some hyper-masculine, chiseled Casanova. I agree with you 100% that the Prince Charming persona is just a fantasy and part of the unreal romance narrative. But it’s one that is still promoted and so many women expect – even though it’s clearly objectifying to men. Men can’t say something… Read more »
Aaron, aren’t there tons and tons of movies geared toward men that also portray men as being the heros? Usually with a young sexy babe on his arm no matter what his age is? The “Hero” narrative is not unique to female entertainment. It’s hugely popular among men themselves! What makes the “hero” narrative offensive to you through female entertainment vs male entertainment that is pretty prolifect itself in portraying this archeotype? Also, yes, a man can’t say, “Woman, Where’s my dinner”, BUT he can say, “Honey, I’d love if you cooked us a romantic meal together. What do you… Read more »
Being treated respectfully is being treated like a princess as far as I’m concerned. All it takes is respect and treating the other person nicely – in both directions.
I believe in “everyday heroes” – showing up, every day is the most heroic act ever.