Why do some men report that even the attempt to be a good husband is a soul-crushing experience?
There is a conversation that started with some guys in The Good Men Project—in person, by phone, via email—where men were asked to talk deeply and honestly about their marriage. What came out was startling: there is despair in the voices of married men. The refrain heard over and over is some variation of “I want to have a good marriage. I love my wife. But sometimes, all I feel is resentment—from my wife, toward my wife, toward the marriage. I believe my wife thinks I am an asshole, and she treats me as such.”
My first thought was: If an alien came to earth and read this, it would think marriages are a form of torture chambers. My second thought? Wives should know about this. I don’t think they do.
These guys seem to feel that a marital relationship comes down to more than compromise. Some go as far as to say it’s a form of humiliation—“a bitter pill that I have to trust will be worth it.” Often a man will admit that a central issue in their lives is dealing with the irrational-seeming criticism from their wives in a way that isn’t defensive but shows compassion and love, despite the cost to their souls.
There is an obvious breakdown of communication in the marriages where men feel resentful and women are oblivious to that resentment. But the saddest thing, to me, is that the breakdown is destined to continue; many men agreed to be quoted only if they could do so anonymously. They can’t talk openly about their marriages without fear of reprisal. The last thing they want is for their wives to find out.
Not every marriage is doomed, of course, and even where guys talk openly about the problems, there is a ton of love and joy that makes up for it. But others have lost hope that there is a way to solve the problem. Because, as men readily admit, maybe they are assholes, sometimes. We are all human; we are all flawed. Women are equally imperfect. But almost always, the men we talked to start with an intention of trying to understand their wives, get a grasp on what would make the marriage work, and have an intense desire to move toward an increasingly great relationship, instead of one where they feel continually disconnected. And yet, they can’t seem to get there. Despair is the end result of ongoing frustration and disconnection.
Here are some of the responses we received:
- “There’s an easy way and a hard way to communicate with my wife. The easy way is to admit she is right, immediately, no matter what. The hard way is to fight now and admit she is right down the line when you run out of steam.”
- “Women are constantly trying to control their husbands. If a man dares to critique his wife, she immediately goes on the attack, screaming and crying with the express intent of teaching, so that no good man would ever do it again. Most men learn the lesson well and early and learn to ‘seethe in silence.’ The resentment continues to grow. Men feel defenseless against this kind of attack and don’t know how to have any equality.” (John Wilder, marriage coach)
- “Most every problematic marriage I’ve seen has one theme in common. The woman is so busy trying to force the man to attend to her agenda that she doesn’t appreciate, or even notice, all of the things he does for her.”
The reason marriages fall apart is that we don’t communicate. The reason we don’t communicate is fear of reprisal. Obviously, these discussions should be going on, but they do not appear to be, and many men are at a loss for a way into the conversation.
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Communicating is hard when you are always trying to duck and cover.
Difficult discussions are a given in any relationship. But this is different. The men we talked to appear unwilling or unable to displace their animosity and bitterness. Many want to hide behind the cloak of anonymity. The consensus is that the only way to protect the marriage is to not talk about it.
He says: “My suggestion: duck and take cover in an undisclosed location. I do have hope. I have watched my brother-in-law deal with my older sister in a very cunning way. He just ignores her, walks away, and goes to get a beer or smoke a cigar. I guess he is a man beaten down to a slow retreat each time the shit hits the fan. Calling them on the carpet doesn’t work. Countless times, I’ve asked my wife, ‘What’s up? Why so many orders, I am not your personal slave!’ She fires back, ‘I am not giving orders, only making suggestions.’”
She says: “I tried very hard to be the ‘good wife’ when the marriage was young. I think, however, that we women in general expect too much of men—we expect you to be our ‘soul mate’ and the source of all our happiness. Our white knight in shining armor. Whatever. Then reality hits. There is no way any man can live up to what were fed in romance novels and RomComs. So no matter what, you look like an asshole. We can’t handle the disappointment and are too brainwashed to admit that our expectations are just too high. So we lash out.”
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Explaining the forces at work: a list and some details.
A quick, non-scientific survey of self-appointed experts in the perception of husbands as assholes, despite a lack of evidence, turned up a list of potential causes of this phenomenon:
- “Marriage is hard work. There is no disparity here. Wives feel that husbands order them around. ”
- “Some kind of Freudian thing that women generally resent their fathers and take it out on their husbands.”
- “It’s just a hormonal thing.”
- “Men see the locus of control inside themselves, so when shit goes wrong, they try to fix it, where women more often see it externally, so they blame others.”
- “It’s about sex. They want to make you earn it.”
- “The beauty-maintenance-insanity correlation. If you want a beautiful wife, you are going to pay the price since they have other options, always, and will make you aware of that fact implicitly.”
- “Guys really are thoughtless assholes. We need a woman to slap us upside of our face to get us to do pretty much anything.”
- “Golf. Too much golf is the source of all problems.”
- “Every guy secretly wants to marry a stripper, and your wife is just letting you know if you do, it’s really, really going to be painful.”
Women and men both were quick to jump in with some of the details.
She says: “Look, maybe we don’t ‘nag you constantly’ at all. Maybe we’re just flapping our lips and you’re projecting. Think about how much time we spend on the phone versus how much time you spend on it. Consider that we can talk to our sister/best friend/cousin five days in a row and never run out of things to talk about. We need to discuss and dissect our mother’s insensitivity, our job’s unrelenting pressures, and the nasty look the cashier gave us when we tried to use an expired coupon at Bed, Bath & Beyond. Most of the time we’re not saying, ‘You are such a jerk for leaving your socks on the floor!’ but ‘Oh my god would you look at the socks all over the floor!’ We’re giving a play-by-play of the minutia that is our lives (because that’s what we do), and you’re getting defensive because, well, you know you’re a slob, so you assume our ire is your fault. Sometimes it is, but just as often it’s not. (Tip: When we’re on a rant, the very-best way to diffuse it is some variation of ‘You sure do a lot around here and I am one lucky son-of-a-bitch.’ You should try it!).”
He says: “This ‘male’ training goes back to the built-in insecurity of wives fearing their husbands will abandon them and stop providing and protecting them, and hence to need to keep them on a short leash. I still like being a guy better. Remember—it’s easier dealing with a difficult woman than living as a difficult, demanding woman 24/7. That’s why many women don’t like other women, too. We guys are simple and lower-maintenance on average. We just want women to be in a good mood, give us some positive reinforcement, do fun things with us (such as sex), look good (but not over-the-top perfect), give us some space, allow us our food and sleep, and clear out some other hassles and roadblocks in life. That about covers it. What do women want? Everything. Without having to spell it out first—but then get mad afterward if he doesn’t do it. Because after all, ‘if he really cared about me, then he would have [fill in the blank].’”
She says: “As a woman, we suffer from a behavior which I have named ‘I’m not happy and it is all your fault.’ We have learned that unless we are in “control” of our spouse’s thoughts and behavior (‘don’t fold the towels that way, why did you say that and not this’), then there must be something wrong with our spouse and the relationship. There is a line from the movie As Good As it Gets that illustrates this perfectly. Jack Nicholson’s character is asked how he writes so successfully about women. He states, ‘I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.’”
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One of the scariest things about these conversations, and the reason it’s important to get them out in the open, is that not only does resentment beget resentment, but it starts that dangerous spillover where men and women start to make vast generalizations about each other, based on what they see as repetitive behavior in the one relationship they would like to believe is unique. As some men told us:
- “Men want to be good husbands but they honestly don’t know how. And the women they truly adore pound them as a result. Rather than talking it through, they ultimately get to the point where they give up on dialogue and just take the punishment as part of what they have to endure. And what’s interesting is how that enduring punishment comes out sideways over time in terms of men’s true view of women.”
- “We don’t have the verbal endurance to match the detail of women’s reasoning, and we cave. Even though they’ve missed the point entirely. Part of the problem is the support they get from their friends. Without that extra inspiration and misplaced confidence they might actually check with us to see if they’re on the right track. Naaaah.”
- ”It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. Somewhere along the line, the sewing circle (or whatever the XX version of the boys club is) started telling each other what they would and would not accept from their husbands, sometimes not letting the truth get in the way of a good story. The Elk Lodge, on the other hand, felt like they had to one-up each other with sometimes-apocryphal tales of henpeck-ery. As time marched on, men felt like they didn’t have it too bad at home, women felt like they didn’t have it quite good enough, and an entirely fictional middle ground was met.”
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What if a contract really was a contract?
Perhaps, then, a new framework is needed.
I remember working in advertising with a creative superstar, one who yelled and screamed at vendors, photographers, directors, and colleagues in an effort to get them to buy into his creative vision. One day I was sitting in his office, cowering, and he turned to me and said,
“Hey, you know, I’m not really an asshole when I leave the office. I go home, kick off my shoes, pat my dog, and invite my girlfriend over for a bottle of wine. My assholeness at the office is all a performance. I just need to get shit done.”
And yet, when you look at what guys are saying about their marriages, the reverse is often true. In the office, they are treated with respect and courtesy. They’re listened to, and negotiations happen aboveboard and frankly. But when they get home, all hell breaks loose, the rulebook is nowhere in sight. There’s, at best, a sense of anarchy and, at worst, a feeling of slavery.
Here’s what some men said:
- “It’s funny how I can go from the office where people seem to respect me—my intelligence, my work ethic, my abilities—to a house where I am more or less treated like a lackey,”
- “Where men handle their power in the workplace, there is a disconnect with the rules of engagement at home. Men enter into romantic relationships with no concept of the extremely ‘contractual’ nature of all human interaction. The contractual aspects of being at work are apparent and, even if you missed some of the fine points of your offices etiquette standards, enforced by everyone. No one likes to see someone break the rules of behavior in an office. Whenever someone yells, they’re reprimanded and ignored until they can ‘act like adults.’ If someone is condescending, they get called on it, are made to prove the correctness of their position, or labeled an arrogant creep. Threaten to ‘walk out,’ and you get fired. Make a claim you can’t prove against another employee, and you may get a lawsuit along with your pink slip. Even bosses must bend to the structure the company has decreed. Try to break these contractual points, and you are let go. If you are continually exposed to those ‘breaches,’ you will instinctively leave and seek a better job.”
- “Compare that to the home life scenario. Men are exceedingly flustered by the treatment they receive by their wives. But even though we have plenty of anecdotal evidence to indicate they could have called their spouses on it at any time, they don’t. They hide, they “Yes Dear” to things they know are unreasonable, insulting or unfounded and they just take it.”
- “Married men treat their wives differently than they do other women. In a well-meaning but unhealthy way, they don’t hold them accountable for their behavior, thinking that they’re doing everything they can to please their wives. Unfortunately, the lack of confrontation fuels the woman’s view that she can do whatever she wishes without encountering any resistance or blowback from her husband. Over time, he does what he can to keep the peace, while she continues to grow ever more demanding, testing his limits. You’d never see a guy do that in his workplace, but he does it at home. Half because he thinks he’s making her happy and half because he thinks he’s doing what he can to keep his home harmonious. Neither works.”
Perhaps, then, the answer lies with both parties—men and women—seeing marriage as the contractual relationship it really is, to explicitly honor the vows to “love and cherish.” No matter how hard it is. To look at those words as action words, not feelings. It’s impossible to commit to “feeling” the same way forever. But it’s not impossible to “act in love” with the person you cherish, until death do you part. You only need to believe that it is possible. And, for the record, I’ve never been to a wedding yet, where one says, “I vow to be an asshole and to let you treat me like one for all the days of my life.”
Out loud
It still bothers me that there’s no real dialogue around this issue. Men feel resentment, women appear oblivious, and conversation around the topic seems nil. Men and women both hope that their spouse will suddenly turn into the magic mind-reader, someone who will wake up and “get” the anger and disconnection that they are feeling. But if we can’t start the conversation husband by husband, wife by wife, then let’s start it together and get some of these issues out in the open.
As one guy mentioned, “I was having lunch with a friend who is about as happily married as any guy I know, to the same women for the last 25 years, and was telling him about this article. He just started laughing out loud and commented, ‘every guy I know can relate to that one.’”
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Poor, Poor, Pitiful Men: The Martyr Complex of the American Husband, Hugo Schwyzer
Being the Man Does Not Automatically Make Everything Your Fault, Jackie Summers
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—Photo klaaspieter/Flickr
About the Editors
WoW …
Thank you. I am separated … and this article speaks to so many reason why ‘I’ (my side) believe ‘I’ am in the position I’m in.
Oh wow. Thank you very much for writing this. I just got married two years ago. Perhaps this is why everyone says stuff to me like “Oh don’t worry, you’re still in the first two years. You still like each other.”
I think this kind of stuff is important for women like me to read because I don’t want to be naive, but I also don’t want to go into marriage assuming it’s going to be awful. It sounds like this is the kind of thing that develops over time… So if I can hear both sides of the dialogue right now, I can try try try to remember this down the road.
This is extremely enlightening. I know a few people who would relate to this. Thank you again.
Most of the time it’s just so called “shit tests”. If you are a man, don’t put up with them. Attempt to communicate, see if there’s a legitimate complaint , but if not, it’s best to ignore her or tease her. Whatever one does DO NOT always give into your mate. Only do so when you feel she or he is right. Otherwise, they will not respect you, and when they lose respect for you it is as good as over.
But what about if she thinks her complaint is legit and you do not? Teasing or ignoring her will only make the situation worse.
If seems like you think the man should always decide whether the complain is legit.
well said, MB.
Well, yes.
Just like she gets to decide if a complaint you make to her is legitimate, so do you get to decide if a complaint made to you is legitimate. If you can’t agree often enough or over something major, then perhaps it’s best to go your separate ways. The point is this : do not attempt to always placate your partner because eventually they will come to disrespect you. Go with your conscience.
Thanks for opening this dialogue. I thought I was the only man that felt this way. I tried repeatedly to communicate this to my now ex-wife the best I knew how.
It would have been nice to give me attribution when quoting me. It would have also been nice had you provided some realistic solutions like marriage coaching as opposed to marriage counseling.
John Wilder
Hi John,
Since most people wanted to remain anonymous, we didn’t end up attributing anyone. And this article wasn’t about the solutions, it was pointing out what seemed to be a widepread mindset that we didn’t think people were aware of.
We’d be happy to have you submit a post talking about the solutions such as coaching (and how that differs from counseling) — that would be great. We could run it and link the original article back to your post. That would solve both problems you have with the post. Please email me at lisa at goodmenproject.com and we can discuss.
What do you mean by marriage coaching? The woman needs to be respected as an equal leader.
Hey MB
If you would just take that chip off your shoulder, marriage coaching is an alternative to marriage counseling. Traditional marriage counselors have a horrendous failure rate of 75%. Marriage coaches on average have an 80% success rate. There are many reasons for this.
Women are of course considered equal partners. As to your comments about women centric and women on top for sex, I am a big fan fo women on top. I also suggest that they face away from the guy because she can then utilize a vibrator simultaneously to have multiple orgasms as well as control the rate of thrusting. She can slow way down and the guy gets his own private porno show of seeing his member being buried in her vagina up close and personal.
As to jobs and wealth, more women today are going to college than are men. More women are being placed into management positions. More women have wealth than men (although admittedly it is inherited wealth from dead husbands). You have got to stop drinking that feminist kool aid. Read Penelope Trunk’s blog on this. She also states that women are making more than men today.
John Wilder
So.. the author got a woman to sign off on women’s defective reasoning & confirm that men simply have the best of intentions…If only the women would cease and desist with their whining / nagging & lower their expectations… ((Sigh))
The goal was to highlight the fact that if men really do have the best of intentions — or even if they think they do — but they are still feeling as if there is some sort of problem with their marriage but are not talking to their wives about it — that that should be discussed.
Also — you may want to read Hugo’s counter response — http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/poor-poor-pitiful-men-the-martyr-complex-of-the-american-husband/
Or, as I offered to other commenters, write you own and submit. Thanks!
Nice article Lisa.
Every relationship is different, so assigning all the blame to one gender is pointless. But I think it’s true that men are often blamed by some sort of default status. I can only speak for what I see in my own life and circle of acquaintances, and what I see is a bunch of highly controlling, borderline verbally abusive women who feel they need to rule with an iron fist. As a result, the man doesn’t resemble the person I knew prior to marriage. Instead, he has to completely change who he is to keep his wife happy. And I believe when you’re not able to be yourself, you’re just living a lie. But unfortunately, living that lie is easier than rocking the boat and standing up to a tyrannical wife.
Eventually it gets to the point where he walks on eggshells to keep her happy. And at that point, it’s both of their faults. Hers for being so unnecessarily controlling and his for not having any balls to stand up for himself. And the cycle continues.
Please stop using sexist language. “Having the balls to stand up for himself” is a very woman-hating statement. It is so male chauvinistic to equate strength with a small, vulnerable part of the male anatomy.
Ummm, woman-hating statement? Is saying that “she should have the ovaries to stand up for herself” a misandrist statement?
Seriously. When you equate this kind of thing to misogyny you lose all credibility. It approaches the very height of hysteria.
I’ll stop hijacking this thread now. I just could not let that one go. I guess it’s “Having the balls to stand up” to nonsense like that.
Peace.
No, I didn’t lose credibility at all. It is male chauvinistic to equate testicles, a very vulnerable part of the male anatomy, to strength.
If I said, “He needs to have the ovaries to stand up for himself,” you would also be offended.
Strong women are often called “ballsy” and it’s very offensive because it equates maleness with strength, femaleness with weakness.
It is very distressing to hear so much defensiveness and male chauvinistism in the “Speak Your Mind” section of this website.
Again MB you are so hypersensitive and ignoring the obvious for your points. The balls are where testosterone is made and thus the essence of manhood. So having balls is a euphemism for having testosterone and not being afraid to confront the wife over actions she has done to offend and/or to hurt the man’s feelings. Apparently you think that women are perfect and men are the louts with no legitimate complaints alonig with your feminist sisters.
John Wilder
Wow, John. So when a woman speaks up and disagrees with you, she has a chip on her shoulder, is drinking the feminist kool-aid, and is just being hyper-sensitive.
You’re a marriage couselor? LOL. What you are is an idiot.
You lost all credibility with me. That’s all I’m saying.
You are in no way being hyper-sensitive.
The words we choose reveals our thoughts.
You were dead right about this: When we want to call someone weak, we use the word “pussy.” If you want to say someone is brave / strong, people use the word “ballsy.” This is OBVIOUS & you’ll have all kinds of people in denial telling you your perception of this REALITY is the problem, rather than admitting to what the actual problem is.
MB, I don’t believe the term, “Having the balls to stand up for himself” is inherently woman-hating, just pro male. I think it is OK to use such a statement in the context it was given, about a man standing up for himself. However, in the situation of women showing courage, I like to use the terms ovarian fortitude or growing a set of eggs, because I understand the biological phenomenon of women lacking balls, otherwise known as testicles.
The Anonymous General Manager of Political Entertainment,
The Rated Republican Superstar
Wow MB. You need to get a grip.
And no, I’m not going to change the way I speak just to suit you. Trust me, I’m not a “woman-hater.” It’s a figure of speech. Get over it.
No, I won’t get over it. This figure of speech privileges men over women.
I’m not asking you to change your speech just to suit me. I’m asking you to stop using male chauvinistic language.
My mother once told her (female) supervisor that the supervisor “didn’t have the balls to make a tough decision.” Way to go, Mom! I just can’t find it in my heart to criticize her for using misogynistic language.
Also, I would point out that male-referenced language and misogynistic language are not the same thing.
And, if you really wanted to remove all value-laden references to male genitalia, you will also need to stop the use of the words “testify” and “testimony,” both of which come from the same root word as “testes,” from an ancient Greek practice of holding sheep or goat testicles while giving statements in court, an association of honesty with masculinity. Getting rid of those words seems a bit extreme to me.
Of course getting rid of those words seems extreme to you. You are sop used to sexism in language you view it as “normal.” Anything normalized becomes invisible.
When I think about the metaphor, it does seem a little odd to associate testicles with courage. (I don’t think it’s offensive or sexist, necessarily, or if it is, then you have to pick your battles, and this seems like a pretty trivial battle to me.)
Maybe if testicles were things that males only got when they got older, instead of things a (cis-)boy is born with, it would work better. But, little boys have testicles, too, so it seems strange to associate them with bravery. I’m sure that if I were ever in a combat situation, I would curl up into a fetal ball and wet myself, clutching and dampening the very scrotum that’s supposed to be a symbol of my bravery.
I’ve always liked “spine” as a better body metaphor for courage.
Hey MB
Your very feminist leanings are showing. Feminism has done more harm to women than it has helped. I would cite for you the feminists refusal to come to the defense of Carrie Prejean who lost a crown due to a gay man marking her at a zero because she had the nerve to speak her feelings truthfully about gay marriage. He called her every vile name in the book leveled at women.
I accosted many feminists over this slight and their explanation was that they only defended womenh who endorsed their homosexual centric political philosophy.
Sadly we are seeing rampant Misandry in our society. You even see it on the commercials where the man is portrayed as this hapless boob has yet again gotten himself and/or his family in trouble yet again. The wife is portrayed as super woman who swoops in to save the day all the while tossing off insulting and condascending commments ot her husband.
The most common complaint about wives that I get from my clients is that women don’t make it safe for men to tell them the truth when it has to do with critique of the wife. Instead of hearing him out she goes on the attack. So yes it does take balls to confront her in her virulent attack.
John Wilder
John, your male chauvinistic leanings are showing. Patriarchy has done a lot more harm to women and that’s why we have had a feminist movement since the French and American resolutions.
BTW, those commercials about the man being portrayed as helpless are because of patriarchy, not feminism. I don’t think it’s funny to see men being inept at doing housework and childcare. But in the patriarchal mindset, “real” men don’t do “women’s work” and so, it’s considered funny when they do it (especially if they are inept).
You ought to read Allan G. Johnson’s great book, “The Gender Knot: Unraveling Our Patriarchal Legacy.” I
As an avowed liberal I doubt if I can reason with you. Those commercials don’t portray men doing housework. And for the record I always believe in an equal division of housework and did laundry, dishes, cooked cleaned bathrooms and changed diapers.
Maureen Dowd did a column a couple of years ago stating that the only reason for men in our society is to be sperm donors. Wikipedia does an outstanding job of explaining Misandry.
You of course conveniently ignored my statements about Carrie Prejean. Feminists clearly don’t represent or even bother to pretend that they represent all women now.
Men have learned to keep their mouths shut because women invariably withold sex as punishment.
John Wilder
I strongly disagree with your statement about feminism. Feminism has been a great boon to me and most of the women I know. It gave me the freedom to dream of jobs that had previously only been held by men. It gave me the right to vote. It gave me the chance to work outside the home. It gave me the right to attend college, to speak my mind with less fear of reprisal, and the right to equal payment for equal work.
I am very, very sorry to hear that you feel you cannot speak your mind or that you have to “keep your mouth shut.” It appears, tho, that you have plenty of voice here. Please continue to voice your opinions. If my own experience is any indication, it should do you good.
Kitti
“It gave me the freedom to dream of jobs that had previously only been held by men”.
“It gave me the chance to work outside the home.”
” It gave me the right to attend college”
” and the right to equal payment for equal work”.
This is all due to the creation of birth control, a surplus of female friendly jobs and the dual income family economy.
“The patriarchy” designed full participation on the tax farm.
And now we get to the main point: Feminism is The Devil LOL!
If that was the goal, you fell miserably short of it.
Are you familiar with Dr. Steven Harley? His research shows that women’s resentment leads women to divorce men and women initiate divorce 75% of the time… often men claim to be shocked / suprised / unaware their wives were unhappy.
The problem with most spouses is they think of what their own needs are & aim for that. The smart person determines what the other person’s needs are & fulfills those needs.
But isn’t that exactly the point? If men are feeling resentment, and women are feeling resentment and nobody is talking about it — shouldn’t we try to get some honest dialogue going on? Or should we only have the conversation around what “smart people” are doing?
Communication is THE key!! My boyfriend and I have been learning Active LIstening for more than a year. It has greatly improved our relationship.
NO. Read what I stated again & stop trying to force agreement with your article.
The point is that people are thinking about what they need rather than what their partner’s needs are.
In the unhappy marriages I see – the Men are often guilty of being lazy when it comes to the emotional maintenance of their marriages.The Women are often guilty of using ineffective tactics to compensate for that.
Ahh Hugo Schwyzer , the man who never ever (and I’ve read him at his own site for over 7 years) makes females responsible for anything and acts like he’s an expert to give men advice when he’s on his third wife. Somehow, I think I’ll skip that article.
I think he’s on his fourth marriage now.
Sorry, but this was just another superficial article about conflict in marriage.
Marriage has never been an equal partnership. It is still a male-dominated relationship, so naturally, most women are angry and most men are resentful. The problem is much deeper than communication.
Marriage is currently a female-dominated relationship, just as society has been female-dominated for the past 4 decades. Society’s views are reflected in the legal system’s bias against men. Women can get almost any court to side with them, regardless of the facts or merits of the case, so those women who don’t really love their husbands and are nothing more than vindictive little chihuahuas use the threat of legal consequences to keep decent men locked into abusive relationships.
Yes, it is time to open the door and shine the light of truth that men can be victims of abuse too. Hopefully, the days of society’s misandry, or sexism against men, will come to an end.
If marriage were female-dominated, men would take women’s names, women would make most of the money, men would give up their careers to follow their wives, men would do most of the housework and childcare, men would take almost all responsibility for birth control, men would be on the bottom during sexual intercourse (and all sex would focus completely on the clitoris) . . .
If married were female-dominated, most of the world’s rich would be women and most of the world’s poor would be men, almost all of the world’s newsmakers, heads of state and corporate CEOs would be women . . .
The days of society’s “misandry,” or sexism against men, aren’t even close to coming to a beginning.
I have to disagree with you a bit on this, MB. Personally I enjoy the missionary position because it provides the right stimulation to my clitoris. I have a lot of trouble reaching orgasm when I’m on top. On the other hand, my boyfriend loves having me on top so he can play with my breasts and grab my butt. He prefers it to missionary for that reason, but we alternate to keep us both happy. So I think you are detracting from your argument here, with all respect.
Jill, you may disagree with me on the missionary position, but what about all my other statements?
Most sex manuals will admit that the missionary position is a male-dominant position because it gives the man more control. They’ll also say that the female-dominant position gives the woman more control. This sounds strange, but older “marriage manuals” often advised against the female-dominant position because it upset the “natural male dominant order of marriage.”
MB, have you studied matriarchies at all? You might find them very, very interesting. In a true matriarchy, men are treated with egalitarian fairness and are given equal voice. There are extant matriarchies such as the Mosau and the Lapplanders, completely unrelated cultures, as well as historical instances. Female-dominated men that you describe are actually just copying patriarcy and not practicing matriarchy.
I don’t think MB was talking about the “matriarchies” that you describe. She was just trying to show what marriage would look like if it was a female-dominated institution. Some men on this list think marriage is female-dominated and she was trying to tell them all the ways that they are wrong.
Personally, I don’t think a man delegating the daily expenditure decisions to his spouse constitutes female dominance. It’s more like a CEO delegating some responsibility to a middle manager.
Kath that’s a useless analogy, a middle manager cannot evict the ceo for no fault at the drop of a hat and abscond with more that half of the companies assets and his children.
Urban slums are 96% mother lead homes, and are the leading indicators of violence, crime, poverty, and addictions.
80% of the men in prison for violence come from fatherless homes. 96% of the men on deathrow come from fatherless homes.
I’m not privy to the research you’re mentioning, but it seems to me as U.S. society has become more matriarchal, it has become much more violent. This is a direct result of welfare and no-fault laws.
There are many many studies which show fathers are integral to the healthy development of children as fathers parent in different ways from mother.
The problem with the U.S. flavor of matriarchy is that it means fathers are superfluous to the family unit.
MB:
There are some fallacies about what constitutes control/dominance in your post:
A) What makes you think that because women earn less, they aren’t getting the outcomes in the marriages they want?
Two articles:
Per this article:
ht tp://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3318366/Wealth-is-key-for-marriage-study-claims.h tml
Women place a premium on a mate’s wealth and status.
And this ABC video & article about a women who became the breadwinner when hubby lost his job:
ht tp://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=7088747&page=1
She states: “I lost so much respect for him”
If doing the home/child care is the hardest and least thanked job, then why do women seem to resent their men who lose their jobs and thrust the women in to the provider role?
The notion that work outside the home is some kind of bed of roses for men (or anybody) is such mindless drivel it makes me want to puke. Clearly many millions of women know that it is intrinsically safer, easier, and more fulfilling to take care of your own children then to be part of the rat race.
B) The person with the most or all the wealth may have had more control in a marriage in the 50’s, but that was before courts attained the rights to seize property from one partner and give it to the other.
CEO’s typically work 55 to 80 hours a week. With the changes in family/civil courts (like no-fault divorce which gives mothers single custody 80% of the time, lifetime alimony being the law in most states, palimony suits, etc..). This isn’t the 1950’s where a CEO can divorce a loyal mother, keep custody, and keep most of his money. Women are now entitled to 50% (and much more when you consider she almost universally gets the homestead, and child custody) of what a husband earns starting the 1st minute of the marriage.
The higher you go financially, the higher your responsibilities become. While listening to NPR I heard about a dairy rancher who would have to sell his farm and send the dairy cows to be slaughtered. This rough tough grizzled rancher was on the radio crying because of the dozen or so families who worked at his farm who would now be unemployed.
Is a foreman of a plant powerful? In some respects yes he commands other people what to do. Is a mother powerful? In some ways yes, she commands the children.
If you were to tell a mother that the more children she has the more power she has she would laugh in your face. But, when you tell a man that instead of being in charge of 12 people, he would be in charge of 100 (for little more pay) he falls for it.
Even at the lower strata where blue-collar workers must abuse their bodies or risk life/limb to earn a decent living (like coal miners, sewage workers, roof repair) the health risks are the man’s to sustain, but the earnings he brings home are equally shared with the woman.Men are 95% of work-place fatalities. Men die on average 7 years earlier than women. Of all cancers that affect both sexes, men suffer them 50% more often.
Women make 73% of spending decisions. This goes up as you go into the upper classes. If you measure LACK of power by lack free time, and lack of life decisions, and increased chance of injury, life-time ailment, or death then women OVERWHELMINGLY come out on top in marriages.
In other words: MEN SECURE FOR WOMEN WEALTH, LEISURE TIME, SAFETY, INCREASED LIFE-CHOICES AT THE COST OF THE MEN’S OWN BLOOD/SWEAT/TEARS.
MEN ARE NOT WOMEN’S OPPRESSORS, BUT THEIR EMANCIPATORS.
C) most people with a lot of bias are going to selectively look in only spots where they want to back up their beliefs. In this way, they can procure “evidence” that substantiate their beliefs, nevermind that they are ignoring lots of other evidence that disproves their opinion.
Men:
* live on average 7 years less than women.
* are 38% of all college graduates
* are the targets of 80% of all violent crime
* are 90% of the incarcerated
* are 98% of those on death-row
* are 80% of all suicides
* are 90% of all homeless
* are 95% of all workplace fatalities
* win sole custody of the kids 6% of the time & shared 14% to women’s single 80% & shared 14%.
$7 on women-specific disease research is spent on each $1 for men
Despite these STARTLING statistics there are a national and 50 state Commissions on The Status of Women. There is only 1 for men in Massachusetts, which is unfunded.
While I wouldn’t hazard a guess as to whether most male/female relationships are male or female dominated I would say that easily nearly every single women is very aware of how much the laws advantage her. I would say that many many millions of women take full advantage of their superior legal status to the husband whether in minor or major ways.
According to this 4state study of 46,000 studies women initiate 2/3’s of all divorces. What are stated as their reasons?
“Infidelity not a major factor. Exploitation not a major factor.”
Three major reasons (in order):
“Because I’ve out-grown him”
“Because I don’t need him”
“Because I Will Win”
Statistically, author Margaret Brinig says, women who filed for divorce most often felt confident they would receive advantageous custody agreements. “The question of custody absolutely swamps all the other variables,” Brinig said. “Our study found that children are the most important asset in a marriage and the partner who expects to get custody is by far the one most likely to file for divorce.” Brinig adds that not only are women certain they will get custody, THEY DIVORCE SPECIFICALLY in order to “gain FULL CONTROL over the children.”
The younger generations of men are well aware of the misandric nature of marriage and divorce laws. Many men are opting instead to use women as replaceable sperm receptacles and opt for serial dating /hooking up well into the mid 30’s.
In this regard a great deal of men are now becoming as mercenary and dehumanizing in relationships as a great deal of women have been for the last 25 years.
It’s all very sad, and you have feminism to thank for this.
They stated straight out of the box that they were out to destroy the nuclear family and have largely succeeded.
Here is the link to that divorce study:
h ttp://www.livestrong.com/article/146100-why-do-women-initiate-divorce/
HA!
This was very interesting, Lisa. I really like that the word asshole can mean either cruel or stupid. Sort of covers the basis of what women generally complain about regarding emotional misunderstandings. I’d love to see a look at this from the POV of European, South Asian, South American, Central Asian, African and East Asian men. You could ask Aussies and Native Americans but I feel like I have a pretty firm grip on the pulse of both peoples.
Enjoy your double-standards, friends.
“It still bothers me that there’s no real dialogue around this issue.”
Lisa, there is real dialogue around this issue when both women and men admit that we still live in a patriarchal society and are willing to take equal responsibility for it. I have seen that real dialogue and think it needs to be on your website.
Someone recommended Allan G. Johnson’s “The Gender Knot.” I highly recommend it, too. Allan Johnson is a novelist, sociologist, husband, father, grandfather and consultant who knows how to talk about patriarchy without getting people on the defensive. He knows the difference between individuals and systems, and he also knows how they interact with each other.
I strongly suggest that you invite Allan to write articles for The Good Men Project.
Dear Lisa,
I gotta say, some of the comments above are interesting to say the least!
Where do I stand?
In the family I grew up in, we (my elder 3 siblings and I) never witnessed our parents in conflict in the way that we could see a difference of opinion arising, an argument ensuing, and a resolution being achieved. We only ever knew our parents had had an argument because we would witness our Dad obsequiously saying (EVERY TIME!): “I’m sorry dear, your were right, I was wrong, I didn’t think.” EVERY TIME! This was the early ’60s, mind you, and he really was a 1950s man. Still is, really, at 94 years of age.
So I grew up not being comfortable with conflict. Any interpersonal conflict was always threatening and overwhelming, and should always be best avoided. In the past, if I ever was in conflict in a relationship, when saying nothing, and trying to ignore the difference of opinion didn’t work, I just needed to eventually yell a lot to let her know that I was upset (doh!).
I’m 52, and I’ve been married and divorced twice.
I am currently in a long-term relationship (11 years and counting,) and I am the proud Dad of two beautiful 2 and 5 year old children, and the proud partner of a woman I intend to be with for the rest of our lives.
And I have learned:
Conflict is OK, but it is best not to seek it out, and ‘make’ it, if you will.
Heated conflict is nipped in the bud by maintaining respect for her point of view, and listening to what she has to say.
She will listen to what I have to say when she has had her say, and back and forth it goes.
If I am in conflict, it doesn’t make me a bad person, I’m simply in the midst of a difference of opinion: it’s simply a problem that needs to be cooperatively resolved.
If my partner and I are in conflict we rarely do it behind closed doors: we want our children to witness – and to be able to model later – how conflict arises, what to do about it, how to resolve it, and most importantly to realise people aren’t ‘bad’ – i.e. ‘assholes’ because they are in conflict.
Utopian? Brainwashed by the feminist paradigm?
I honestly don’t think so.
All the best
Richard
Richard, you have been influenced by the feminist paradigm and that is a very good thing. Feminism is not evil.
It is part of why wives don’t like the single friends of their husbands. Single men remind the husband of what he puts up with and undermines the constant wheedling of the wife. It is anecdotal but only one marriage of my friends is healthy and that is because the husband doesn’t put up with any of his wife’s crap. He holds her to the standard of human adult behaviour. It has been 20 years and they are still together.
From my own experience I understand now why my girlfriends were not marriage material for me, and make no mistake in my earlier years I was looking for marriage with the right person. All of them started on the behaviour of nagging, attempts to control my life and to shape my thoughts to suit their agenda. When I spoke to them about it they unabashedly stated it was what girlfriends/wives do and they have a right to make me a better person.
I’m single, not looking and infinitely happier than when I was on the dating circuit.
I hope she doesn’t put up with his crap either.
I worked very, very hard not to be a bitch when I was married. I was calm, reasonable, logical (far, far too logical, as it turns out) and willing to work. But it was hopeless, because my ex- really was an asshole.
I accepted blame for everything, I apogized for everything. I didn’t understand when he said I kept telling him he was wrong; every day, I told him he was right.
I did all of the housework while he played computer games. He was usually up until 1 or 2am, playing, and would sleep late in the morning. I got up on time every morning, tiptoed around the house to as not to wake him, and ate breakfast alone. He made a great show of rushing downstairs to tell be goodbye before I left for work.
He bragged daily about getting to work late and his boss being OK with it, or falling asleep in his office for over an hour and no one saying a thing. I had a stressful job and tried not to burden with him that stress.
I would ask him for help with the housework. He said that if I wanted it done, then it was my project and I should do it. The dishes and garbage were supposed to be his job; the garbage would overflow, fill a second bag that I would hang on the pantry door, garbage would fill the base of the pantry and start falling out across the kitchen floor. Eventually, I would take out the garbage. He would usually protest that he was “going to do that” but if I stopped what I was doing, he would wander off. The dishes would sit on the counters for months, attracting flies, until eventually I would wash them all.
I picked up his dishes and used tissues from all over the house, put away his books, his shoes, his jacket, his laundry. I would sort loads of laundry, wash, dry, hang and fold the clean clothes, and carry the baskets of clean clothes back upstairs. I asked him to carry his hanging clothes back upstairs (I would carry my own) and he would throw a fit that would last for days. His shirts regularly hung downstairs for months at a time, while he would complain repeatedly that he had no clean shirts.
He thought that getting the oil changed in our cars every three months was equal to all of the housework I was doing.
He treated my every conversation as tho I were feeding him straight lines, and turned my concerns into jokes. He used me to make himself feel clever, while I felt lower and lower.
Maybe all of these men who are complaining about their wives’ anger are not like my ex. Maybe they fold clothes, carry out the garbage, and wash dishes. Maybe they vacuum and take the dog for a walk, and take their wives’ concerns to heart. Maybe they listen and console, and treat her like an equal. But I bet at least of them are like my ex-.
Maybe if I had been a complete bitch, we’d have been evenly matched. But I’m not. So I had to leave him.
Hey Kitty
As a marriage coach, I will be the first to admit that there are asshole husbands out there and you were truly married to one. There are also a lot of good men who do the majority of the housework and are still denied sex by their wives.
As to the previous earlier discussions, the courts are inherently sexist with the modus operandi being that men are bad and that women are good. Family court is called The House of Pain by lawyers who practice there. There is zero justice there. There are laws regulating women’s behavior that are never ever enforced like withholding visitation but men if they don’t pay child support (and they need to) can and do have their wages garnisheed, lose their driver’s license and have their tax returns seized. Nothgin is ever done to women who withhold visitiation. In fact there is a syndrome called Parental Alienation Syndrome that the courst are clueless about where the vengeful ex wife poisions their children’s minds against the dad. It happened to me twice. Then there are the gaurdians at litem who are overwhelmingly women who have absolute immunity, can’t be prosecuted or fired who routinely submit false affidavits to the courts which would get an attorney disbarred. I can go on and on and yet MB won’t budge an inch or give any credence to wrongdoing by women. As such she is not taken seriously but just a hysterical feminist. And for the record I will be the first to admit that there was a need for feminism because of wrongs committed against them but we have legislated those away.
John Wilder
I take MB very seriously. I think her words are causing you to be HYSTerical (what’s the origin of that particular word, John??)
I find it comical that men don’t have THE BALLS to stand up to their wives because they are afraid that their wives will withhold sex.
Do men really care about sex that much? Are you really sublimating your sense of self for a 3 minute burst of pelvic pleasure?
How pathetic.
Or maybe…there are men who don’t agree with your views.
Thanks for the nice article Lisa.
Yes, women do dominate in marriage.
As reported by Ms. Magazine, Dec. 2010
Women, according to the JEC report, control 73 percent of spending within their households, which is equivalent to approximately $4 trillion in yearly discretionary spending. Furthermore, women are more likely than men to control daily expenditures in more than half of middle and upper-class household
In a 2008 study by the Pew Research Center:
Of 1,260 couples, married or living together, surveyed this summer, women wield more decision-making power at home.
In a 2007 study reported in the Journal of Counseling Psychology.
Researchers found that wives, on average, displayed more power than their husbands during problem-solving discussions, regardless of who brought up the topic of discussion.
Psychologist John Gottman, the marriage therapy guru, has stated that “the biggest revelation we’ve had about how conflicts are best resolved in successful marriages” is if husbands yield to their wives. That is, the key factor in whether a relationship will be happy and successful is whether the husband listens to and obeys his wife. In a statement that shows women’s demanding nature, Gottman also says that women bring up over 80% of marital conflicts while men tend to avoid these stressful discussions
Especially, thanks for validating men’s experiences, it’s rare.
Actually, Gottman said that husbands need to let their spouses influence them. He never said that husbands need to let their spouses lead them or dominate them. Gottman even praised male-dominated marriages where the husbsand let his wife influence him.
Most men will say that their wives make the little decisions, but not the big decisions of the household. Deciding what type of laundry detergent to buy is a little decision, but deciding how to invest the family money is a big decision. And deciding that the husband’s career will be more important than the wife’s career is a HUGE decision. As long as the husband has the big career in the family, men will rule the world.
There is much research suggesting that women defer to their husbands on major financial decisions.
Maria Says:
“There is much research suggesting that women defer to their husbands on major financial decisions.”
If there is so much, maybe you would be willing to provide a few citations?
Daily expenditures are not the same as major investments.
It’s still a male-dominated world, and it will continue to be as long as men like you pretend that marriage is female-dominated.
As long as the man makes the money, he can take away her “control” of daily expenditures whenever he wants. And if he leaves her for another woman, she could end up in poverty.
There is no substitute for a woman having her own provider-level income. As long as she is economically dependent on the man, she is one-down. He may delegate daily expenditures to her but he can also take it away.
No, he cant Kath, the wife can evict him and abscond with more than half of the assets and the children at the drop of a hat.
Could someone kindly explain to me again why people get married? I’ve seen pretty much everything discussed here in my parent’s marriage in my poor divorced friends marriages.
It’s really not clear to my why people marry. Are we all stupid or something? Do tell…
“Psychologist John Gottman, the marriage therapy guru, has stated that “the biggest revelation we’ve had about how conflicts are best resolved in successful marriages” is if husbands yield to their wives. That is, the key factor in whether a relationship will be happy and successful is whether the husband listens to and obeys his wife. In a statement that shows women’s demanding nature, Gottman also says that women bring up over 80% of marital conflicts while men tend to avoid these stressful discussions”
What this says to me is that you have one person who wants to communicate & the other who doesn’t. A man who does this not work on the emotional management of his marriage (that’s women’s work after all) & allows resentment to fester – his (because he feels controlled) and hers (because she has a less than fully engaged PARTNER.
“Women’s demanding nature”? How about a man’s unwillingness to engage in the emotional heavy lifting required to have a happy marriage?
As an overly accommodating wife of eighteen years (now divorced), I can’t express how sorry I DON’T feel for all these resentful husbands. I think a nice follow-up to this piece might be, “Are Wives Really Nagging Shrews Or Do Their Husbands Just Think They Are?”
I’m sure it’s already been done on feministing or jezebel. Why are you here at a men’s site?
No, it hasn’t.
I didn’t realize this was a boys club, particularly considering the author, and quite a few commenters, are women. Why are you here if you don’t want to hear women’s opinions?
Reading many of the comments here I’m reminded of the problem with seeing the world through an ideological lens: one closes one’s self to the complexities that are usually closest to truth. Everything becomes black or white – ideas either support or challenge ideologies and are adopted or rejected with little real exploration. Sadly, this makes it even more difficult to truly understand or improve relationships.
glad I’m not alone. strangely, the romcom analogy came to me the night before reading this article and it’s so true – you just see the highlights of a romance in a 90 minute movie and expect a lifetime to be like that? they even throw in some lowlights which lead to more highlights but in real life the lowlights don’t tend to get so nicely resolved. makes me wonder if the trends in movie production have a correlation with trends in the divorce rate, and I wonder how we (I) could be so gullible.
I think its fair to say that of any gender are being assholes to the other its women being assholes to men.
You will never see a large section of the male population whooping, cheering and lionizing a man that cut up their female partner in a domestic violence incident.
What happened on the talk and with Lorena Bobbit, is indicative of how men are viewed by women, in general.