Men’s cheating and sexual acting-out may be less about women and more about seeking status from other men.
Marie Claire ran a story last Wednesday called “The Truth About Bachelor Parties.” It opens, as you might expect, with an anecdote about a groom going to a strip club with his friends and family members (including some male relatives of the bride-to-be). As Judy Dutton reports, the groom, “Adam,” ended up having sex with a stripper—but only after being goaded by his friends.
In another instance, the bachelor party sex was premeditated:
Take Kevin, 29, embarked on a “sexual scavenger hunt” during a bachelor party in Montreal. “We said we’d have sex with a stripper, a bride-to-be, a cougar, etc.,” says Kevin. “Two guys were married, one engaged, one single, and one with a girlfriend, like me. I slept with a stripper (full point) and kissed a bride-to-be (half point).” Kevin admits that bachelor parties are male bonding at its worst: “It was a twisted celebration of our bond, another chapter in our history,” he says.
Dutton’s point was that women should be leery of trusting what men say about bachelor parties, claiming that guys often conspire to deceive wives and girlfriends. But she buried the lead: the degree to which men’s infidelity and sexual acting-out is about seeking status from other men.
While it may be impossible for women to find out what their boyfriends and husbands are really up to during stag parties, the big take-away from Dutton’s piece is undeniable: the sexual behavior of even the straightest of guys is driven by the need for other men’s approval.
There’s a name for this behavior: homosociality.
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Scholars use this term to refer to the power of same-sex bonds. To put it simply, a man is “homosocial” (it has nothing to do with homosexuality) if he values his relationships with his male buddies over his romantic relationship with a woman. At its crudest, this idea is expressed in the old maxim “bros before hos.”
But while same-sex friendships are wonderful and necessary, there’s something very troubling about the way so many American men act out their homosociality. In Dutton’s article, men are consistently faced with a choice between remaining faithful to their female partners or engaging in competition with other guys. Over and over again, these men choose to break their vows. The “bros” win out.
In the Marie Claire piece, “Kevin” uses the language of scoring to describe having sex with a stripper (one point) and kissing a bride-to-be (half a point.) This isn’t new. Since at least the 1920s if not before, American men have used the language of sports, especially baseball, to describe sex. The terms are familiar to generations of American teens: first base, second base, third base, home run. (While there’s general consensus that simple kissing is first base and intercourse constitutes the home run, there’s long been heated disagreement as to what sexual acts “count” as reaching second and third.) As in baseball, one must “get home” (have intercourse) in order to “score.”
The obvious question hardly ever gets asked. Who’s the opponent against whom you’re trying to rack up points and runs?
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It’s obvious from Kevin’s story—and from the lived experiences of countless men—that the competition isn’t “boys against girls.” It’s man-on-man, a homosocial battle to prove who’s got the most “game.” School boys refer to a promiscuous classmate as a “player,” and they say it with admiration. And make no mistake; the player is playing against other guys. Women are just the necessary implements for keeping score.
What’s curiously absent in the Marie Claire article (and in the research on male homosociality and heterosexual behavior) is lust. Most of us were raised to believe that young men are in a state of near-constant arousal, with sex first and foremost on their minds. The reality, as Dutton unintentionally reminds us, is that orgasm is secondary in importance to homosocial validation.
Guys who need to be “goaded” into cheating clearly aren’t unfaithful because of biological imperatives. They’re acting in response to something even more powerful: the need to impress other men. This isn’t limited to “white” American culture either. In the anthology Muy Macho: Latino Men Confront Their Manhood, the Mexican writer Ilan Stavans describes having sex for the first time in a brothel:
Losing our virginity was actually a dual mission: to ejaculate inside the hooker and then, more importantly, to tell of the entire adventure afterward.
He’s not talking about telling his mother, either. He’s talking about a thrill even greater than orgasm: scoring points and winning approval from the other guys.
Ilan’s words would ring true to “Kevin” and “Adam” and countless other men whose sexual choices are driven more by homosocial pressure than by libido.
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As obvious and indisputable a factor as homosociality is in men’s lives, both men and women are reluctant to admit its power. For women, the reality of homosociality can seem almost insulting. If straight men are made “weak” by sexual desire for women, then at least women are foremost on guys’ minds. Many young women are raised to believe that male horniness gives women “power” over men, a power that “smart girls” will use judiciously. Homosociality is a threatening reminder that all too many men are more easily manipulated by their same-sex peers than by their wives and girlfriends.
Guys are unwilling to cop to the power of homosocial pressure because once exposed, the whole thing seems so juvenile. Most men will admit that when they were kids they went to great lengths to impress other boys. Far fewer want to admit that “scorekeeping” remains a major factor in their adult decision-making.
I’m wary of making sweeping generalizations about what a “good man” should or shouldn’t do. But it is clear, surely, that one difference between a boy and man is the degree to which he is able to walk away from the score-keeping that is as the heart of so much of “guy culture.” And as the stories of “Adam” and “Kevin” remind us, until we stop playing these games with the boys, we’ll keep right on breaking promises—and breaking hearts.
About Hugo Schwyzer
I knew I had been agreeing with you far too often Hugo. Now we’re back.
The Marie Claire article and your follow up are so wrong. Make no mistake, I’m not saying that kind of stuff doesn’t happen on some bachelor parties. I’m sure it does. But I’ve been to dozens of them now and my friends are more than a little crazy. But never—not even once—was there any cheating that went on. And we’re all great friends. The only competition is an occasional keg stand, not to see who can rack up points sleeping with a stripper.
The guys you’re highlighting are on the extreme side of things. They are far from the norm. Maybe in college we’d do something juvenile like the point system, but as the years wear on most people grow out of that. The situation you’re describing is so disgusting with the married guys actively trying to cheat on their wives at bachelor parties, and I don’t know any guy stupid enough to participate in such a thing.
When you paint this as the norm, and when you make it seem all guys engage in this b.s. “homosocial” behavior, it’s a disservice to the majority of the male population who are not like this at all. That’s why I found the Marie Claire article and your follow up pretty offensive to men as a whole.
Let’s stop pretending the extremes speak to the reality of the situation.
Strip Clubs and Strippers degrade women. Most of these girls are just 18 years old and have been sexually abused as a child. 80% of Strippers are also part-time prostitutes! Think of the STD’s. There is NO WAY that I would let my husband go to a Strip Club or hire a private Stripper for a Bachelor Party etc…! It is sinful and morally wrong! Ladies, do you really know what goes on during Bachelor Parties??? Believe me, it isn’t just the girl dancing and taking her clothes off. Most men participate in sexual games and actually have physical contact with the stripper!! Lap Dances are cheating in my eyes. Google what a Lap Dance really is and I bet you wouldn’t want your husband to get one! It is as close to intercourse as you can get! There is also a game called Feed the Kitty. Google that one and I guarantee that you will be very upset if your man did this to another women! I vote NO to Bachelor Parties that have Strippers or going to Strip Clubs… Especially if the men are already married! Bachelor Parties are awful Male Bonding Traditions!
“Strip Clubs and Strippers degrade women. Most of these girls are just 18 years old and have been sexually abused as a child. 80% of Strippers are also part-time prostitutes!”
When making claims like that, please support it with evidence.
I think the main focus of the article is not that this behavior is normal or that it happens a lot — I think it’s just that it happens for “non-mainstream” reasons. The popular stereotype is that men cheat because they can’t keep it in their pants, they’re just that horny. Meanwhile, people don’t usually point out that there’s an element of impressing other dudes in there as well.
OP, and when women engage in exactly the same behavior, is it said that all women do it too, also are their actions more incorrect and irresponsible, even malicious and selfish because they, not living in guy land are not motivated by the homosocial validation or is there another set of social pressures making them do it?
Actually they are also motivated by homosocial validation: i.e the girls.
From my anecdotal evidence of 5 or 7 data points, I am almost entirely convinced that women propagate eating disorders. No dude I’ve known has ever suggested or implied that I’m fat, whereas plenty of female friends just couldn’t stop talking about how they lost five pounds by eating tons of food and doing nothing, as if it’s an accomplishment. So yeah: girls are homosocial too.
I think these ideas might speak to the deeper role of social networks within human culture and society, regardless of whether or not this article speaks to the extremes or the norm (I’d say this bachelor party example *might* be an extreme, but the underlying message re: same-sex bonds is valid – for instance, simply take the dudes who will lie/misinform/avoid going home to the missus, and perhaps say something derogatory about her, to stay out with his buds). We often put romantic *monogamous* relationships on a pedestal as the end-all goal of our adult lives (even our jobs can be seen as a means to support that relationship and the, obviously, resulting family). However. This brings up the importance of social bonds in human culture, which we don’t often acknowledge or discuss. As a society, we believe so strongly in monogamous relationships, but it’s pretty clear that social relationships in a more general sense are very, very important to human behavior and interactions. Realizing how important, and allowing for that, may put less pressure on romantic, monogamous, relationships. To take it step further, they allow for the present of more open romantic relationships as well, when we start to acknowledge that perhaps human culture and bevhavior is NOT actually built on monogamous, straight, child-bearing couples… but on a COMMUNITY of interacting people, connected by various types of bonds – that may, or may not, be more important than one another. The key, of course, is allowing for these bonds, without forcing them to compete.
Another interesting point is looking at female homosocial bonds. I truly believe women can develop strong homosocial bonds as well, and that they are very significant in human social interactions. HOWEVER. For a very, very long time, women have been conditioned against creating such bonds, and have often instead been encouraged to compete with one another. Yet, when we overcome that societal conditioning, we create lasting friendships.
In the end, I think my point is these bonds don’t have to be at odds with our romantic relationships. We can, and should, have both.
Another interesting point is looking at female homosocial bonds. I truly believe women can develop strong homosocial bonds as well, and that they are very significant in human social interactions. HOWEVER. For a very, very long time, women have been conditioned against creating such bonds, and have often instead been encouraged to compete with one another. Yet, when we overcome that societal conditioning, we create lasting friendships.
Actually women create deeper and more intimate homosocial bonds that are fewer in number while men in general form less intimate homosocial bonds that are generally greater in number.
“Actually women create deeper and more intimate homosocial bonds that are fewer in number while men in general form less intimate homosocial bonds that are generally greater in number.”
Preposterous. SOME PEOPLE create deeper and more intimate homosocial bonds that are fewer in number while OTHER PEOPLE form less intimate homosocial bonds that are generally greater in number. When it comes to friendships there is no use generalizing along gender lines.
the sexual behavior of even the straightest of guys is driven by the need for other men’s approval.
This premise is pretty much false. Sure in certain cases social pressures such as peers (the homosocial you speak of), family, community etc will motivate men and women to do things that they wouldn’t normally do and yes this would include sex but it isn’t the only motivator. Men’s sexual behavior will work counter to these social pressure. Men have plenty of sexual experiences that they “keep to themselves.” Men will do things that they don’t want their male peers, their family, their wives or anyone finding out. Men have risked it all, including their lives, to satisfy their sexual desires.
That is true, however, Hugo has a point to the extent that when men do make such comparisons or use a point system that the goal is not to impress women but to impress other men.
That said, I cannot think of any instance in which men I know cheated on their partners to please other men. I actually do not know anyone who has cheated on his partner, but I would imagine that if they did, it would be because they wanted to, not because their friends told them to.
I’ve known quite a few men who have evaluated a partner in terms of how the partner’s physical qualities and characteristics would enhance their own sense of self-esteem and status. It hit me after reading this article that while they might not be requesting approval explicitly, they are seeing themselves through their buddies’ eyes and gaining self-esteem not from the love and kindness she gives, but her physical appearance and the respect and envy it may invoke in his peers, through his own perception (however flawed).
I have lots of female friends who date guys that we don’t approve of or think are deserving of our friend, but we’re trained to keep our mouths shut and opine only after the guy has done something horrible. And even then, we learn to tread carefully in case she wants to get back with him. One friend confided me that her then boyfriend cheated on her and so they broke up. Though she lives two blocks over, she dropped our friendship because I’m the one who knows about this secret in her relationship and she is now back together and engaged to the cheater, and recalls my then-judgment of him.
This is true. A lot of guys will date a girl that they don’t really click with just because she’s hot and it would be a self-esteem boost and “bragging rights”. Not only is it horribly cruel to the woman, but the self-esteem boost comes from knowing that his peers envy him. It’s essentially using a woman as a tool to gain favor with other guys.
Well, I don’t hate Hugo’s article, but I think this is true of young men, not older ones. My young men’s group was basically intellectually inclined Army buddies in Germany. We drank so much, we didn’t really have time for women, and most of us didn’t have girlfriends during the year and a half or so we hyng out. I had one for about a month and a half at the beginning of this period, and another friend had one right at the end. We were fairly destructive in plenty of ways, but I don’t recall us being particularly misogynistic. Much of what we talked about was the new late sixties music and culture.
In my own life, I had a period of intense sexual acting out with women between ages 33 and 41. By that time most of my close friends were women. I definitely was not in it to brag to men, and most of my female partners were not aware of the actual numbers of partners I had. Marrriage way moderated this, but did not entirely make it disappear till way later.
As a woman who made a living stripping at bachelor parties I will say that while Not All Men are Like That….there are enough of them that it is worth mentioning, and if the women in their lives, from their mothers to their lovers, knew how they behaved and the crap they tried to pull- they’d be flat out horrified and the Bros just might find themselves without anything except their homosocial friends and antics.
A little bit of me does wonder if, if women talked about sex with men (or whomever) among themselves more, they might be open to/enjoy it more. Even though much of what men say to each other about sex is innacurate (and porn is certainly inaccurate), there is a permission giving from sex talk that women don’t always get. The sexual dialogs in “Sex and the City” are probably more the exception than the rule in real life because women are trying to avoid an unspoken “slut” label with each other.
Someone once commented here (citing Nietzsche) that his resentiment was a key factor. I think the main idea is to limit their own and, by implication, men’s sexual behavior by self repression of sex talk.
Totally disagree. First of all, there’s a difference between respectful talk about sex and degrading talk about sex – point systems, etc. How men at bachelor parties and such talk about women is most definitely in the latter category. That’s nothing for women to emulate.
Also, there’s also the issue of privacy. Your partner shouldn’t have to assume that you’re spilling all of the details of their sexuality to your friends. It’s just disrespectful – for both genders – to share something that most people feel is be private.
If women don’t talk about sex in the same manner than some men do, it’s not a hang up. It’s actually something positive. Most of the women that I know are fully comfortable with making respectful, general (as opposed to something about a specific partner) statements about what they like and don’t like when the situation calls for it. Avoiding a TMI situation is good, isn’t it?
My impression is (and I’ve asked women about this) is that women often take the safe route with other women and don’t talk about sex. Okay, the one general exception is Jewish women— who do talk about with other women and with men. My general impression (and I know that this is generalizing wildly) is that Jewish women are much more intact sexually than women who are Protestant or Catholic. I can remember my first wife (Jewish – I’m Protestant) and other Jewish women talking comfortably about sex at the table. Jewish parents will often say “what a cute little knish,” referring to a girl’s parts, directly to the girl. So the naming brings the sex organs into being, and makes them capable of sensation.
“TMI” culture is relatively new, and represents part of the re-Victorianization after the 1970s.
While I agree that the example in the article is extreme, I do think that lesser instances of this occur very frequently. Something that has always bothered me is that men bond over women’s bodies. Going to strip clubs, viewing porn, and swapping sexual stories is a significant factor in male bonding. I find this misogynistic and, quite frankly, unfair. Men should be able to bond in ways that are not degrading to women.
The pressure put on men to behave in ways that are not female-friendly is a major part of most male-driven comedies and TV shows. While probably exaggerated for entertainment, they reflect a very real reality. Additionally, it causes friction between a guy’s friends and his girlfriend. It’s hard to like a person when you know that he’s pressuring your boyfriend into doing things that would be hurtful to you.
For example, I once was in a long distance relationship. My now-ex told me flat out that he was teased mercilessly by his friends for “not getting laid”. That contrasted very greatly with my friends, who were supportive. Not being in a position to have sex for an extended period of time isn’t fun for anyone, even women, but I was really surprised at how much pressure there was for him for break-up/cheat on me. To this day, I’m not really sure why that is. Why would his friends care so much about his sex life?
Men who decline invitations to go to strip clubs are frequently taunted for being “gay” and guys that choose to pursue relationships rather than hook-ups are considered less manly by their peers. I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that fraternities, which emphasize male brotherhood, are more likely than average to have a sexist view of women (point system, degrading language, objectification, etc.)
Also, I read a really good article in Newsweek a while back that theorized that the reason men are less likely than women to accept gay men is that homosexuality is commonly used as tool to control male behavior. It’s hard to support something that you’ve been avoiding association with your whole life. Men are so frequently taunted for being “gay” or “girly” or doing something “like a chick” that it’s hard for them to be comfortable with people who identify with those things. Personally, I don’t think that this is the whole story, but it was an interesting read.
Lindsey you articulated so many of my own thoughts! I totally agree with you that there is a tendency for men to do this same form of homosocializing over “smaller” instances. And alot of your insights are really just spot on.
Agree, agree, agree with this article. I recently found out, after twelve years of marriage, that my husband went to a strip club the week of our wedding after promising that he wouldn’t. It was the one and only thing I asked him not to do, because I feel very strongly that entertainment involving naked women is degrading, and can escalate quickly to really bad situations (i.e. infidelity) when alcohol is involved. So please, I asked him. Please don’t do this. It is really important to me not to do this one thing. I wouldn’t ask if it weren’t really important to me. He said that he understood and that he was sincerely okay with it, that strip clubs were kind of juvenile anyway. I breathed a sigh of belief that I was marrying such a good guy.
Twelve years later, I found out that when his best buddy (always a bad influence, who treated women terribly, and who my husband looked up to as “cooler”) arrived in town, and said “Hey dude, we should go to a strip bar,” my husband agreed instantly and off they went. Needless to say, my trust in him has been badly shaken. I am convinced that a big part of that broken promise was the need to look cool in front of his buddy. I am equally sure that I am not the first woman this has happened to.
My ex-boyfriend’s friend had sex with two different women over 1 weekend because his wife was hormonal (she was pregnant and a few months along and she was tearful and apparently feeling insecure about how he felt about her body) and his buddies said nothing about it at all. Apparently, he “deserved” it after dealing with his pregnant wife. My ex was like, “But Jon’s a good guy. What he did wasn’t right, but he’s still a good person.” No word on whether Jon actually bothered to use a condom.
I wonder what it would take to be a “bad guy”? Cheating on your wife multiple times while she’s pregnant with your child seems pretty sleazy to me. I think that guys are too easy on other guys. If a guy friend of mine did that to his wife, I think that I’d distance myself a little.
This is no defense of anyone’s infidelity, because I tend to think cheating is cheating is cheating, but are there really aggravating vs. extenuating circumstances for a man cheating? I think I know the answer, but I’m curious as to why cheating on a woman when she’s pregnant is actually morally worse than if she were not pregnant. The flip side of that argument would be to tell a woman, “yes, he cheated, but it could be worse, you could have been pregnant at the time.” Or, “hey, at least he waited until after you gave birth.” And those just don’t sound right to me. I don’t think pregnant women deserve more moral protection (for lack of a better phrase) than non-pregnant women, because that means non-mothers somehow don’t deserve as much fidelity as mothers do.
Men are much better than this and a little bit worse than this.
I have no doubt that there are bachelor parties like this. I also have no doubt that many men who participate in such “scoring” systems inflate their numbers. In fact, I’d say men exaggerate to their buddies about their sexual experiences more often than they actually have sex for points. The peer pressure is as much to report high numbers as it is to actually have the sex. No doubt many grooms in that position make a cynical win-win compromise – don’t have sex with the stripper, but tell all your friends that you did. Unless of course there is some kind of verification system (“you have to have sex with two of us as witnesses”) in which case there are much deeper boundary issues going on and the marriage has even deeper problems to address.
It’s not just peer pressure. This scoring contest also gives a handy rationalization for having sex outside their relationships. I’m not saying it’s a valid excuse at all, but maybe in these men’s minds keeping score gives them a kind of a pass, like “I only did it because all the guys were doing it, it didn’t mean anything.” I doubt any of these men ONLY had sex at the bachelor party because of peer pressure. Not that anyone would really buy it after the fact. Would anyone believe a groom who said, “I didn’t want to have sex with her, but the other guys pressured me into it”?
I tend to think the men who take part in these activities are not the brightest bulbs, especially when drunk, and probably not the best at being discrete afterwards. These would be the kind of guys who would record the experience and send it out on YouTube for the world to see and then make a play for the newly divorced ex-wife after she finds out.
There is another possibility, hard to imagine but it does happen. Men at bachelor parties may have implicit or explicit permission from their partners – “get it out of your system, be safe, and I don’t want to hear about it.”
Most of the time that I hear someone say, “I’m not saying it’s good, BUT…” it’s usually just to focus on why something happens rather than to focus on whether it’s right or wrong. In a practical sense, it doesn’t really matter where some men’s motivations for bad behavior come from – the behavior is still bad. It’s worth discussing the potential causes only in as much as understanding something makes you more capable of changing things for the better.
for every man who actually participates in this sort of party there are 10,000,000 hugo schwyzers who talk about it. The subject is BS. Hugo has set up a straw man to knock down. Easy BS for living garbage like hugo to talk about.
For years, men have accused one another of being “p***y-whipped” if, for example, a guy declines to attend a strip club bachelor party, or makes (and keeps) an agreement with his female partner to return home by a certain hour. How interesting to contemplate that men may be equally “d**k-whipped,” in particular by the exact men who lob the “p-whipped” allegation.
Imagine if men were to be called on their “d-whipped” behavior (not only by their female partners and friends, but by their male friends as well.) In the hands of a decent socially-conscious humorist, the sit-com possibilities practically write themselves. I, for one, would love to see that skit played out on the large or small screen (and even better, in real life!)
hahahahaha D**k-whipped! Please, please try to make that word happen. I would totally see that movie.
C0ck Slapped has a better ring to it….
“I’d rather be pυssy-whipped than cοck-slapped”… good retort!
I think this is a great piece but I do disagree with this statment:
“Guys who need to be “goaded” into cheating clearly aren’t unfaithful because of biological imperatives. They’re acting in response to something even more powerful: the need to impress other men”
Guys who let themselves be goaded into cheating are working in combination with so called “biological imperatives” AND the need to impress other men.
I never understood why men wanted to celebrate the marriage to their future partner, or their buddies future partners; with other women. It’s a real slap in the face as a woman. And it’s this cultural biased that makes it seem like men consider all women disposable, not just the strippers or the pornstars. Clearly even future wives and gfs are just as disposable if a man in a relationship can easily and happily entertain himself with other women. It doesn’t matter if it’s for 5 minutes, 5 hours or 5 years. Men are making a statement by these actions. And usually the statement is one that women aren’t people but just these *things* put on earth to make men feel good. And to hell with treating women with respect, love, kindness or grace.
Men really aren’t great at PR for their gender. If everything “bros” say is to be believed, they’re naturally cheaters and have to “spread their seed” and are completely incapable of empathy or caring. They think that being selfish and narcissistic is a show of strength or virility. We women just think it’s douchebagginess. But somehow, men don’t seem to care what women think of them (we-and I am generalizing because I know some women who don’t care or find these things disdainful- like men who value family, treat their wives with respect and are faithful husbands, are good fathers to their children, etc. Many women find those qualities attractive and irresistible, but there are so very few men like that out there, who are truly loyal to their wives and children). It makes sense to me that they mainly care what other men think and so they sit around disparaging women who want families and commitment rather than casual sex and FWB relationships, act as though they’re entitled to a harem of beautiful, disposable women.)
I guess there’s no hope, ladies. Can’t compete with the bros, so why try? Single parenthood with support from aunts, sisters, girlfriends, and grandmothers sounds much better than involving guys who are more committed to impressing their bros than to their wives and children.
I look at the elements of male culture that get publicized the most and it makes me depressed. This article really hit a nerve for me because, to be quite honest, I worry all the time about what my boyfriend may be pressured into doing when he’s around his friends. For the guys out there, take my word for it – it’s not a comfortable situation to be in. While one of the smaller instances of this pressure may not seem like a big deal, they add up really quickly.
But I what I try to emphasize is change. Anyone who has read my comments knows that. People don’t log on to a site called “theGOODmenproject” because they’re happy with the current state of masculinity. The guys that read an article like this don’t do it because they think acting like a bro is super great. A lot of men on here understand that there is a certain amount of pressure and they’re uncomfortable with it.
As much as I disagree with how men behave sometimes, I do understand that it would be horrible to have that kind of pressure on you day, in day out. No woman I know has ever been taunted by her friends for “acting like a lesbian” because she didn’t want to sleep/hook-up with a guy. No woman I know has been pressured to ruin her relationship in order to live up to social standards. While it appears that men are getting the better deal, I would be willing to be that this situation isn’t pleasant for some men, either.
While I share your frustrations, I think that this forum should be more about entering into a dialogue with men, rather then just airing grievances. Speaking so definitively about men only makes the men who don’t identify with your posts less likely to respond. And, really, isn’t it the good men who’s voice should be heard? Without them, we’re just left with stereotypes.
I agree that “Men really aren’t great at PR for their gender,” but everyone knows that PR is mostly fake. What we need to be focusing on is how to remove the fake notions of masculinity so that men feel like they don’t have to fit such a narrow view. The more options men feel like they have, the less likely they will give into the type of peer pressure discussed in this article.
This “biological imperatives” argument is baloney and has been done to death. It’s a biological imperative not to use toilets and take dumps in the woods or to go everywhere without shoes on. We’re living in a society and we are social creatures.
It doesn’t dictate specific behavioir to be sure. But testoterone is a big push to men, even at my age. It makes men more simple, linear, and, yes, more agressive, generally speaking.
hugo is a wack job. Think about it. He was on his 4th marriage by age 35. If he doesn’t have a guilty conscience about that he’s a sociopath. It’s not like there’s a shortage of guys with less obvious and absurd problems than hugo. Either the GMP is intentionally a stage for scum or they can’t get anyone who isn’t scum to write for it. It ain’t tricky. Balanger, you’re the scum of the earth. Nobody anywhere should consider you anything but an example of what not to be.
I think this is a great site, even though I often weigh in as a friendly critic. One erroneous supposition that sometimes operates here, though, is the idea that men can become more like women. So ideas like “Dadchelor Parties” seem pretty silly, since probably only 20 men in the country would ever actually do this. I think men and women are physically pretty different. This includes brain and hormonal physiology. I think men have and will always have the ability to defend themselves, women, and children physically. From time to time historically, they need this. We live in a society that (thankfully) provides more and more androgenous roles that both and women can occupy. Because national defense is more technical, women participate well there too. But men and women bring different natural gifts to jobs. It’s no accident that more physicists are men and more English profesors are women. But there’s overlap, as we all know.
I think some of Hugo’s stuff is great; some of it not. I certainly like some of the conversations here.
I do agree with some notions of sexual dimorphism–although I’ve seen some men who I could probably take down (all 5’2″ and 120 pounds of me) and women who could kill me with their bare hands. But the thing about brain physiology is that it’s extremely plastic for all sexes. Brain plasticity is greatly affected by reactions to environment; for example, I do music cognition research, and it’s generally accepted that practicing a musical instrument regularly has huge effects on neuroanatomy. So it’s probably appropriate to question whether at least some sexual dimorphism in that area has to do with deeply entrenched societal gender roles coaching men and women to function in certain ways. Do something enough times and you don’t just internalize it psychologically–it physically changes the anatomy of your brain. Some people generalize that women don’t have very good visuo-spacial skills, but if you teach a girl when she’s young to manipulate objects in the space around her (not advocating for teaching a 5-year-old how to parallel park, but you get the idea), she can acquire those skills. I would not be surprised if her brain showed physical evidence of that. Similarly, if you don’t teach a boy the same thing, he won’t; his neuroanatomy might differ as a result. So when someone of one gender takes on an atypical role, like a man becoming a grade school teacher or a woman becoming an engineer, I’m loathe to say that they’re somehow an abomination to their gender; they’re just wired in a way that allows them to buck society’s programming. Of course, for various reasons, some individuals may have more aptitude for certain activities than others. You’re right to say that men and women are pretty different, but I think a lot of that occurs within gender, as opposed to across gender. I guess my point is that sexually-dimorphic neuroanatomy isn’t actually a good argument for “biological imperatives”, because it ignores one of the most important fundamentals of neuroanatomy–that it’s highly changeable depending on the environment and its demands on the individual, for males, females, and hermaphrodites alike.
“Bros before Hos” comes from the need for men to do damn near whatever it takes to get into favor with a woman, which includes distancing himself from his friends sometimes when the woman doesn’t approve of them.
Most men will forsake alot in get in favor with woman.
Yes some men do choose their partner based on what their male peers approve of, but some don’t.
His peers may at first state their disapproval but will come to accept the relationship later on if the he shows that he’s serious about it.
Being a player is approved by both men AND woman.
Woman approve it because men who are able to attract woman of high quality is attractive to them but disapprove of it if she’s in fear of becoming just another notch on his belt.
I think men do considerably better with women after they give up their male college or even young business friends. In other words, young men’s groups. I believe it’s common for more mature men to have one or two close male friends, and either some female friends, or, if partnered, some couples. Young men’s groups are fairly pathological, and pretty one-sided. Because young men are frightened of women, they tend to be sexist. Players are trashy, even if they’re affluent, and the women they can get are trashy too.
I’m gay. I’m 52. The only monogamous relationship I’ve ever had was with a guy I dated for a year or so. He wanted exclusivity and I didn’t mind. Ironically, despite our having no other sex partners for 18 months, he nonetheless managed to be both faithless and disloyal.
I’ve had two long-term lover-of-my-life relationships – one for 14 years and the other for 7. (I know, they keep dying, it sucks.) Neither relationship was monogamous – I don’t recall that we ever even considered it. While that required tact and consideration, what part of a relationship doesn’t? Monogamy as a solution to the occasional attack of jealousy, possessiveness, or insecurity strikes me as trying to cure indigestion by starvation.
I know gay men who have monogamous relationships as a negotiated choice that they’ve both made, and I know some who broke their promises. But it’s not the norm – when the typical sexual agenda of women isn’t at issue, monogamy is the exception rather than the rule. I’m sure they’re out there, but I can’t think of a single example of two guys who broke up because one had sex with someone else.
Where there’s no lying, there can be no cheating. I know plenty of couples who make room for the occasional other adventure or steady fuck buddy in their lives, but none who lie to each other about it. I know a few with a “What happens in Vegas…” policy, but even that is open and humorous. Nor are partners who take one or both their boyfriends on vacation unheard of.
I’m a retired systems geek, and the frequency with which straight male friends ask me how to keep the women in their lives from finding evidence of porn surfing is downright depressing. I don’t know any gay guys who have any problem with porn, masturbation, or lovers who occasionally like to pretend they’re doing it with Anderson Cooper or Spiderman.
Monogamy always strikes me as a poor substitute for trust. It makes me wonder what sort of long-term relationship is so weak as to require the “boy in a bubble” treatment. While I can imagine it being essential to some people, sexual exclusivity as a measure of commitment always seems to me to be a bit simple-minded.
The article above is incomprehensible to me, and if I’m going to be honest, more than a little repugnant. Mostly it just seems terribly sad, more for the assumptions on which it’s based than its actual content. And if you’re imagining I’m feeling snide or superior, you’re misraken. My primary reaction to what’s implied here is grief. I could easily cry reading this.
I can’t see anything wrong in having sexual adventures – they enrich life and are a great way to make friends. And they often make great stories to share with lovers or friends. My repertoire of funny anecdotes would suffer terribly if I removed all the sex.
Certainly a man keeps his promises, or if that’s impossible, renegotiates rather than breaks them. But a promise made under duress can’t hold, and isn’t being denied any choice a kind of duress?
I know I’m late to this party, but… as a rule (obviously, I’m generalizing) it seems like it is a lot easier for men to have sex without emotional content, or that is, to view sex as an essentially meaningless act of obtaining physical pleasure from somebody else’s body. Again, I know I’m generalizing when I say that, because obviously women can have meaningless sex and men can feel loving toward people they have sex with. But I think there is a bit of truth to it, just in my experience. Men seem to compartmentalize more. Therefore, it seems like men can be in love with one person and not see any contradiction with the activity of f@cking other people. Personally it’s very hard for me to understand. I can only imagine myself sleeping around with other guys if I was not getting my emotional and physical needs met from my current relationship. And if that were the case, I don’t see why we should continue our relationship. In other words, I would have sex with another man if I fell in love with other man, and if that happens, it’s probably going to be because I’ve fallen OUT of love with my current partner.