When W.F. Price had to choose between paying child support he couldn’t afford or spending six months away from his kids, there was only one real option.
It’s fairly taboo for guys to open up about how they end up in child support arrears, because so many of us still harbor old-fashioned ideas about our duty to provide for our family, whether it’s possible or not. In fact, it’s a huge source of shame for a lot of men, and there isn’t much in the way of pity out there, so the stories aren’t often told.
Well, I figure I ought to break the ice in this regard, as I am currently in arrears, and let people—young men in particular—know how it can happen.
I’ve never been a high earner, nor have I ever been very ambitious about making money, although I’ve worked for the overwhelming majority of my adult life and can’t really imagine not working in some capacity or another. I’m sure my lack of financial motivation had something to do with the breakdown of my marriage (although, actually, it was probably psychologically more of a problem for me than my ex), but before being divorced, I wasn’t aware that it was a potential crime.
As is often the case, separation and divorce were a shock to me. I saw it coming out of the corner of my eye, and was resigned to it in a way, but like the typical man, I was in deep denial and avoidance. When my ex finally ran off to begin her affair with the then-married man she now lives with in British Columbia, together with my children, I was pretty much left prostrate. It turns out the event had been planned, and her mother was involved. Unfortunately, I had fostered a friendship between my boss and my ex-wife’s family after obtaining a job for my ex’s sister, and my ex-mother-in-law used this relationship to my ex’s advantage, essentially cutting me off from employment at exactly the point my ex left me. She would later tell my own mother that she felt justified in this tactic because “it was war.” Of course, for me it was more like Pearl Harbor, where you don’t know it’s war until the bombs are falling right on top of you, but people have all sorts of justifications for whatever they do.
♦◊♦
So, I found myself unemployed in the middle of the worst recession since the 1930s, with limited means, all alone, facing a hostile wife, my children having been seized by her parents. Shortly after I filed for divorce to obtain a visitation schedule so I could see my children on some legal terms, I was falsely accused of making death threats while armed and had tactical officers approach my house with AR-15s. Mercifully, my ex recanted her lies under police questioning, and the officers withdrew before I was shot to pieces in one of those humdrum “domestic disturbance” incidents, but my elderly neighbor nearly had a heart attack from fright, and I learned that men armed with automatic rifles had questioned my neighbors about me in the meanwhile, which was humiliating to say the least.
Obviously, this was going to be an expensive divorce, and quite frankly I didn’t have the money to last long. After my attorney exhausted my retainer within a few months, I was on my own, and I was outclassed. After first admitting that I had never laid a hand on her in anger, my ex, under the guidance of her mother’s lesbian, feminist friends, started claiming abuse. There being no evidence, no corroboration, and no arrests, the judge ignored her (this is a pro forma accusation in custody disputes), but I was totally demoralized. About six months after the separation, under the strain of being broke, under accusations from my ex, with a touch of PTSD from the SWAT incident and taking care of two toddlers alone much of the time, I started having severe anxiety attacks. It got to the point where I had episodes of dissociation—all of the sudden I’d feel as though nothing around me was real. I’d hold onto the nearest branch, rail, or whatever was convenient just to ground myself in reality. I was a mess, but somehow I persevered and maintained some semblance of functionality. I don’t know how I pulled it off, and this is one of the times I’ve managed to surprise myself, but I was a pretty responsible and competent parent throughout all this, taking care of my children, while their mother worked.
During this time, my ex’s attorney started working me, and I did my best pro se, but I had no idea about court schedules, rules, deadlines, etc. It was all a mystery to me, and I didn’t have the time in any event. Nevertheless, I managed to present some facade of resistance, so my ex decided to administer a killing blow. What she did was call CPS (child protective services) on me and accuse me of assaulting my son. She did this exactly as I was undergoing an evaluation by the Court Appointed Special Advocate (CASA), in what was a calculated move to deep-six me prior to the trial, which was scheduled for a couple months down the line. Like her earlier attempt to have me arrested, the call had little immediate effect—the CPS agent checked my son and talked to him, interviewed me, and determined the report “unfounded.” I breathed a sigh of relief, but of course I was even more stressed and demoralized than ever. Then, unbelievably, she called CPS again two weeks later, this time accusing me of assaulting my then two-year-old daughter. Again, I had to deal with CPS, and this time they said that, since my daughter was only two, they would be referring the case to the police. I called my former attorney, who told me to relax, but I couldn’t. And of course, I didn’t have the money to pay him, so he did little besides try to reassure me. Fortunately, once again the CPS agent declared the report unfounded, and the police declined the case, but the damage was done. The CASA worker—a grad-school volunteer—decided to err on the side of caution, and before the CPS agent finished the investigation (she had a deadline), she recommended I attend a domestic violence course for six months (typically reserved for convicted offenders), which would cost me thousands of dollars, and that I have supervised visitation of my children until its completion, which meant that I wouldn’t see them for all that time, since I had no family to stay with me at the time.
I was shattered, broken, beaten down. An attorney friend suggested I go to trial pro se, since I couldn’t get a worse deal either way, and he was probably right, but I simply couldn’t handle it—I was spent. Around this time, my ex’s attorney approached me with what looked like a reasonable parenting plan, with decent time with the kids and a minimal amount of conditions. I would have to attend a 10-hour parenting class (so would my ex) and 16 hours of anger management, and there would be no supervised visitation following the parenting class. There was only one catch—I would be imputed with income I didn’t have and pay more child support than I could afford. Thinking of the alternative, which could mean six months of an expensive domestic violence program that would mark me as admitting guilt for something I never did and possibly compromise my parenting time permanently, I signed. After all was said and done, in one of the strangest and most unexpected incidents of the entire affair, my ex’s attorney actually called and offered something like an apology—she said, in a roundabout way, that the CPS and police calls weren’t her idea. I really have no idea what prompted this, but I can only imagine my former attorney must have said something to her about playing dirty.
♦◊♦
Of course, being broke and unemployed, it didn’t take long for arrears to start to build, and it took me some time before I could start paying in full, by which time I was already months behind. My meager bank accounts were seized in the dead of night, I have been threatened by the child support agency, and my credit was reported to all national agencies. There’s a hold on passport renewal with the State Department, my tax returns are subject to seizure, and I could be jailed or have my licenses seized at any time. Given that I am also paying off student loans, becoming “current” will be a rather painful process. Although it’s not a pleasant place to be, at least I know that I am merely one of millions in the same situation, and many have it a lot worse than I do.
Yes, it sounds like an awful mistake, but to me, the time with my kids was worth it. They can throw me in jail, make a pariah out of me, or proclaim me a worthless deadbeat to the entire world, but I am not in the least bit ashamed—my conscience is clear.
However, I still want young men to learn from my own travails. Never go into marriage or fatherhood without being fully aware of the risks they entail. Never look at a young, willing woman without a critical eye, and always be prepared for the worst. And, if you should ever find yourself in this position, don’t lose faith or despair—they can take all your worldly possessions, your children, and even your freedom, but they can never make it right, and there are such things as honor and goodness in the world. Believe it, for yourself and your kids, if for nobody else.
Originally appeared at The Spearhead.
—Photo familymwr/Flickr
About W.F. Price
Vocalyze
Can you please stop this awful auto-refresh thing you have going on with the website?! It’s absolutely horrible and makes me want to stop visiting the site even though I like some of your articles. I guess if you want to kill dialogue in your comments section, this is the way to do it.
What I originally wanted to say is – I sincerely hope you can get your children back and your life on track – this sounds absolutely horrendous and unfair. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for sharing this. You are absolutely correct when you say that many men probably do not want to talk about how they got into similar situations for fear of being shamed by society at large. It was great to see someone risk the potential taboo for the sake of getting the story out in the open.
I think it’s also worth noting that you clearly love your childrend very much. As horrifying and demoralizing as the rest of the story is, your feelings towards your kids come through loud and clear. While the situation is likely stressful now, and as hard as divorce can be on children, there is no question that they have at least one parent who will give them unconditional support. They are lucky in this respect, they have a real father, and that is something no one should ever be ashamed about.
Thanks for posting this. I originally read it on your excellent blog (http://www.the-spearhead.com). It has been literally a beacon of hope for me.
Stories like this are so important for young men to hear. I had no idea things like this happened when I got married. Had I known I would have been much more careful. It should be mandatory that young men spend an afternoon in divorce court before getting married.
I was divorced 4 years ago. My situation was similar to yours. You go from being a cherished father who everyone encourages to spend more time with your kids, to being pushed out, and having people you don’t know try to separate you from your children. They give every reason under the sun – but you know the driving force behind it is always really financial.
Four years later my situation is much much better than it started out. The key is to keep a positive relationship with your children. Stay involved in their lives. If they love you and want to spend time with you that will be the only thing going in your favor – but it is the most powerful. My teenage son has now moved back in with me, and my daughter wants to come back home also.
You have to be tenacious. Never accept it when people tell you it is better for the children that you stay away. It isn’t, and your young children are counting on you to fight to stay in their lives.
“…under the guidance of her mother’s lesbian, feminist friends, started claiming abuse.”
This is not a good way to write, it’s using objective terms as subjective labels — as in, contextually, putting forth “lesbian” and “feminist” as synonyms for “bad”, “evil”, etc. There are “bad people” who are also lesbians and feminists, but not all feminists and lesbians are “bad people”.
This is not a critique on your story sor your struggle, it’s just a comment on wording.
If her mother’s friends are lesbians and feminists then it is completely accurate and appropriate. I’m not sure I see any issue with the wording as long as he’s making an accurate statement.
Agreed. He’s just telling the story as it happened. Nothing wrong with that.
I agree, making an accusatory/negative statement about them being lesbians or feminists detracts from an otherwise powerful story. Not all lesbians are feminists, not all feminists are lesbians, and there is nothing wrong with being either. A better descriptive for these people would have been “vindictive,” or “inconsiderate of the children’s needs.” Don’t assign your anger at one awful woman and her supporters to the whole female sex.
I am a feminist, and I understand that children need both of their parents. Your children will resent their mother for interfering with their relationship with you, as I have seen with 100% of my friends with divorced parents. As a feminist part of my mission is to understand the male experience as best I can, and to explain the female experience as best I can. It has nothing to do with putting men down. In spite of the problematic wording, this article sheds more light on a subject not well recognised by our public discourse or legal system. Fathers, and the need for fathers, should never be forgotten in deciding what should happen with children after a divorce.
Assuming his story is factual (and there’s no reason to believe it’s not), apparently, his mothers friends were lesbians and feminists. Therefore, his statement was a statement of fact, not accusatory/negative statements.
Also, there is no evidence that he “assign(ed) his anger at one awful woman and her supporters to the whole female sex.
Donna:
That is absurd. Why change the wording if it’s accurate? Because you don’t like it and it doesn’t bolster your position as a feminist?? Instead of telling him to arbitrarily and unnecessarily revise a completely accurate statement, why not just take it for what it is? The truth.
Just because these particular lesbians and feminists acted negatively doesn’t mean they all do. The author never made any such statement. Changing the truth because it’s ugly is not the answer.
What does their being “lesbian” and “feminist” have to do with these people guiding her to claim abuse? Those labels seem arbitrary and unnecessary as they are unrelated to the point he was making. And it does detract from an otherwise powerful story.
Interesting interpretation donna, but the article isnt about you and your defensive projections.
It is mind boggling that one can pack as much insincerity, ignorance, myopia, narcissism and just plain childishness that Donna has in this statement while attempting to past it off as some kind of logical, thought-out response. Of maybe this is just plain calculated mendacity. This matter must be addressed. I could write a long essay in rebuttal, but will try and keep it short.
“Not all lesbians are feminists, not all feminists are lesbians, and there is nothing wrong with being either.”
Is this supposed to mean something? No, not all are, but a massive amount of lesbians are feminists, even if they don’t self identify as such, and they hold the views of a feminist. And who cares if not all feminists aren’t lesbians? That isn’t the issue, not even close. Sexual preference has little to do with the damage this ideology has wreaked. You claim to be feminist, yet seem to be either completely ignorant of the doctrine or completely dishonest as to what it espouses. As a feminist, are you familiar with the writings and statements of very influential people that have shaped and lead this movement over the past half century? Let me list a few…..Andrea Dworkin, Marylin French, Judith Kevine, Linda Gordon, Robin Morgan, Valerie Salonas………..It won’t take much investigation to ascertain that these people had or still have very hateful, violent views of men and the man/woman paradigm….and that is what the issue is here. The issue is that there are very large percentages of feminists and/or lesbians, which are often the same, that are window dressing a domination/hate political ideal as “a fight for justice”. This must be exposed for anyone concerned with justice and humanity.
And according to whom “there is nothing wrong with being either”? Yes…..according to Dictator Donna……what if others have a different, informed opinion on the matter Donna? Seems by your statement that wouldn’t be acceptable to you, which is confirmed by your next statement where conclude that by simply naming what some women were you can now tell Mr. Price how to think….and probably the rest of us as well.
Don’t assign your angry at one awful woman and her supporters to the whole female sex.
This is called projection. You projecting your over sentimentalized female mind and its practices on to others. There is nothing in Mr. Price’s article to show he did this in the least. But we have seen that you feminists have done this thousands, perhaps millions of times, to the male sex for decades. Such as Sally Fields proclaiming at the Oscars a few years ago that the world won’t be safe until all men are taken from power and replaced with women. That’s alright by you though as indicated by claiming feminist status………
Then you slip into your self-centered rant about your “mission”…..as though you have been assigned some special pedestal, a la secret agent, to come to some noble understanding of all sides involved. You say “as a feminist” you undertake this “mission”. Is this a joke? Where in your deluded mind have you concluded that the purpose of feminism is to understand men or children? It is amazing how you people can create a reality completely based on only your own personal fantasies. You then further slip into dementia by claiming “feminism has nothing to do with putting men down.” The truly frightening aspect in all of this is that you are indicative of thousands, perhaps millions, of western women that really believe you are informed and are making an articulate point backed with fact, and many of you have been given massive amounts of power and influence in our societies. Or you are just straight out lying. This is very, very dangerous and concerning. On this last point, I will refer you back to the feminist activists listed above. And just to keep in mind, this is a very, very small sampling of what is really out there in the feminist mindset.
The Politically Correct “Thought Police” weigh in.
We can only hope lesbians and feminists alike will not be too offended at actually being called “lesbians and feminists”.
silly. the author was clearly using the terms “lesbian” and “feminist” in a pejorative way, as a code for “women who conspire against men”. there was no other rhetorical reason to include those adjectives. saying it’s a simple description is disingenuous and doesn’t hold with the rest of the style of the story. he didn’t describe his lawyer’s hair color or his children’s personalities. the descriptions included here were obviously meant to imply certain traits about lesbians and feminists as, if nothing else, untrustworthy and particularly fierce foes of men. that is what some are objecting to.
the wording was unfortunate.
all that said, your story breaks my heart. i really hope you do find justice, somehow.
Yeah…but Feminists *are* anti-male
They do everything they can to demonize any and all male power
and Adding “lesbian” to the description enhances it
because they hate men so much that they pair up with women
and you know it’s hatred for males (genetically) because the women they choose emulate male behavior
They love men and the natural masculinity of men, but on the other hand, hate men so they go for the knock off because they’re “technically” not men
incorrect
NO U!
although your description of what the words “feminist” and “lesbian” mean to you prove my point that the author didn’t drop the terms by chance. he was trying to trigger this exact response, a collective “OH THOSE TYPES” in his readers. your comment further suggests how silly it is to say that he was just being descriptive or accurate with those adjectives.
I don’t know what his intentions were in the use of those terms
I speak for myself
yes Feminists and especially lesbian feminists are man haters who would do everything in their power to oppress and marginalize men
with Big daddy gov’s blessing.
Would you have the same negative reaction had he said, “My mother in law and her right wing, Christian friends….”?
Yeah. Didn’t think so. You’d have thought, “Those bigoted assholes!”
The reason that Mr. Price described these women as such was because it was central to the story and yes…..you hit the nail right on the head. Most of these women are fierce foes of men, as you have put it, and this is what we are objecting to….that the yous and the Donnas are trying to hide this fact. That is very devious character. What in the hell would someone’s hair color or his kid’s personalities have to do with a story about Mr. Price getting the shaft from his ex?
Your lack of shame is amazing that you would try to pass this off as logical argument…….
Incredible……..enjoy your feminist paradise…..just like the rest of the matriarchical societies are and have been……
Interestingly, men can see thru the tactics of the annas and donnas, aren’t fooled by it and can cogently call it out. The usual response is for the donnas and annas to more or less prove the point and demonstrate their modus by doing more of the same.
Another interesting point is that the only thing that they took fro m the article worthy of their insecure projections masquerading at thoughtful commentary, is to tak issue with the words ‘feminist’ and ‘lesbian.’ And to take major issue with those two words in the same sentence. Either they are homophobic femininsts who fear the association, or they are insecure lesbians who are not reconciled to their sexuality. The types of people who see their insecurities everywhere and thusly accuse others of themselves.
Finally, it is the usual propaganda trick of trying to control the use, definition and associations of language, b/c in the rhetorical game its all they’ve really got. It is very fickle and they know they can never loose any ground, for if the let on domino fall, their whole game will collapse.
Keep up the good work good men, it is having a serious impact and they’re starting to backpeddle.
As an after thought, does the ‘good man project’ imply that all men are bad and need to be made good, in a way that complies with feminine values?
In this case some lesbians and feminists are part of orchestrating negative consequences for the writer; concealing their participation is inaccurate. Note the author did not say ALL lesbians and feminists are like that, just the ones he identified.
its as if i was discussing a drug deal and took the time to point out that the dealer was black. accurate? maybe. central to story? nope. therefore racist? yup.
Lots of lesbian feminists hate men, including the one in Mr. Price’s story. So yeah, pretty relevant to the story. Move along now.
Well, you said it.
Now you are comparing lesbian femz to black drug dealers.
There’s an interesting association for yer therapist to decipher.
I hope you sue your ex-wife.
This is a heartbreaking story. I feel for you and your kids. Unfortunately in the current economic climate you are not alone. We all need to get a lot more rational about how to deal with the difficulty of divorce, kids and money.
How about addressing the unfairness toward men in the system. You don’t have to wait for the economy to improve to do it.
It will never happen at this site.
Justa Man and The Bad Man — I believe we’ve had this discussion on other threads. We are a community run site. We rely on the contributions of the community about what YOU think is important. If you want to write a post on the unfairness of the system towards men, please write it and submit to me, lisa at goodmenproject.com
Ditto — The Bad Man. To say “It will never happen at this site” is unfair and counterproductive. Further down this thread you have a comment that says:
“I know just how you feel Welmer but I’m still wondering why you have never taken up father’s rights and worked with other men to change the biased system? There’s lots of work to be done, but everyone expects someone else to do it for them.”
I’m asking you the same thing. If you want father’s rights taken up on this site — by all mean take it up. But “expecting someone else to do it” is just not how things happen here.
“Ditto — The Bad Man. To say “It will never happen at this site” is unfair and counterproductive. ”
As an MRA I will agree that this is an unfair statement. The fact that they published this piece is a sign the Good Men Project is reaching out and trying to be a broad publication. They should be recognized for that. Before I became aware of MRA I knew a lot more men who lean toward what is on the Spearhead than GMP.
I read a lot of manosphere and MRA stuff and while this site heavily leans toward the left and feminism, this is a sign GMP isn´t entirely bad. Since I know a lot of feminist read this site (I see more links on feministing to this site than any other ¨men´s¨ site and you´ve bragged about your Ms. affiliation) I think it is great they published it. What I would like to see are some feminist commentators and those who claim to be feminists to acknowledge the bias here. Most guys would be feminist if feminism was about equality, but all we see is man-hating (unless your gay or transgender), the ignoring of biases and discrimination of men, and attempts to either transfer resources from men or put women at a superior position than men using legislation, courts, etc.
Price, I´m sorry for what happened to you, but I know several other guys who got seriously f´ed up in their divorces too so I can´t say (unfortunately) that your story is surprising. I hope you can continue to see your kids and not go to jail for this. Considering how your ex has behaved in the past, I´m worried for you. Would be interested a future update if the situation changes.
Thanks for being so open and honest. Men need to hear your story more than they need to hear from guys like Hugo or the other choads with guilt complexes or who are trying to get into women´s pants by pretending to be feminist manginas.
Best.
BTW, Hickey is right. More MRA type guys need to submit stuff here. There will be a lot more feminist and mangina writing, because that´s the nature of the site, but that doesn´t mean those who have something to say shouldn´t send their work in.
Even though GMPM posts a few articles sympathetic to men, there are too many writers with anti-male bias. Adding a minority of MRA voices only gives superficial legitimacy to a site with a strong feminist base.
Welmer is not an MRA and The Spearhead is not an MRA site. I would have gladly supported his efforts if he had anything to do with activism and father’s rights.
I wonder if GMPM paid Welmer a nominal fee, like they did for Futrelle?
One problem is that this site owes MRA’s an apology for inviting MRA’s to write here and then painting them as nut cases the same day their pieces began to run.. Lisa knows this happened, and the site seems to be doing a better job of some balance, but trust was broken.
Good human beings of either sex take responsibility for correcting it. If that does not happen then they continue a split and there is no real community. just lines that they have drawn.
There are some really good writers in the MRM, and I think they would submit articles here much more often if they weren’t concerned about this sites history.
Hi Justa Man,
I agree we could have run that section more thoughtfully, and am sorry it happened that way. We also have been working hard to make it more balanced. I believe in taking responsibility through actions. We’re not perfect, and we’re trying to be a different type of media organization than others out there. So I appreciate the ongoing dialogue and feedback and hope we can figure out ways to continue the conversation. Thanks.
Lisa, what about making that official in some way, perhaps and open letter and apology to the men’s movement? There might be some healing in that.
Thanks Tom and Lisa for posting this story.
WF Price’s scenerio is much more common than you think.
We need compassion for men, not perpetual blame and shame.
Be aware, GMP taking a more active role in Men’s Right’s via the political system means turning you’re backs on the majority Democrat (liberal) ideology that promotes feminist legislation for women (at the cost to our boys and men). Based on the writings here, I’m assuming this is a place you’re not readily willing to go.
We agree that we need compassion for men and more stories like this being told. We also believe hearing all sides are important. And we also understand that’s not always an easy path to take. Thanks for stopping by.
A word to any lurkers or interested parties: The persona named “Keyster” does not speak for anyone but himself, and he certainly does not speak for The Spearhead. The Men’s Rights Movement embraces all men, of all political persuasions, as well as all racial and ethnic backgrounds. Keyster’s main contribution to this movement is promoting white racism and lambasting anyone who doesn’t agree with his bizarre, ultra-conservative politics.
By the way, Keyster, the word is scenArio. Get a dictionary.
It is the political climate, not the economic climate, that is the problem.
And you know it.
I know I’ll get blasted here, but anyone male or female can make a divorce horrible. Gay couples wind up in terrible divorce and custody battles, as do lesbians. People can be horrible and even relatively good people can get so focused on “winning” that they listen to unscrupulous lawyers.
This sounds like a horrible circumstance, and I’m sorry especially if your children had to hear terrible things about you (or about their mother if there was any chance of that).
I don’t think that evil is the domain of feminists any more than it is of MRAs. I think people of both genders can make exceptionally selfish, cruel choices.
“I think people of both genders can make exceptionally selfish, cruel choices.”
Yep, but only one gender has a biased legal system that they can exploit. If you are going to ignore that, then you can ignore just about anything.
FWIW, I agree with Julie that either party in a divorce can make it bitter, hostile, combative, and abusive. Mr. Price, I think your story is a terrifying one, and you have my utmost empathy. You make it clear how easy it is to find oneself in your position of tremendous, undischargable debt: child support payments and student loans. The real horror, of course, is how your wife has wielded the system against you, and I’m no lawyer but I hope you can get a civil settlement from her: you deserve therapy and a new family court agreement that doesn’t tie your payments to an income you don’t have.
I’ve heard other, similarly horrible stories from divorced people. I know women who’ve suffered to maintain relationships with the children they’ve parented, through ugly divorces with their kids’ other parent. I’ve been in the same kind of “war” you were in, of having to prove that I wasn’t a threat to my child (because I was going through gender transition), and not being able to afford legal defense. This is why I empathize, although the details of our stories are different.
I agree with Matt N, who commented earlier that your identification of your ex-wife’s associates as lesbians and feminists only serves a war of identities where there could be coalition among parents in common cause. The legal system guarantees that we won’t be treated differently based on our gender, and that’s something that the men’s rights movement, lesbians, and feminists (and everybody else) can all agree is necessary for justice for all. How about a parents’ rights movement?
@ Justa Man
Absolutely!!!!!!! Well said…….just how far into mental outer space the people of today can go is astounding……
“I know I’ll get blasted here”
That’s because you’re everything but honest.
Yes, anybody can make selfish and cruel decisions regardless of sex, but that’s not the point.
You know the system is biased. Everyone knows.
I know just how you feel Welmer but I’m still wondering why you have never taken up father’s rights and worked with other men to change the biased system?
There’s lots of work to be done, but everyone expects someone else to do it for them.
How would you describe The-Spearhead then?
The-Spearhead is an MGTOW site, not activist. That’s why I’ve never donated to him.
Sometimes the only way to effectively protest your treatment by society is to stop participating in it.
I heard one MGTOW say it was “working to rule”. No one is going to care to negotiate with the activist MRAs until enough men go their own way to make everyone sweat a little. Men are have always been economic generators, putting more into the system than they take out.
The system’s gotten so huge now, since removing men from a *willing* position of providing for and protecting women and children, and it’s not a charity. It takes a huge cut. That means it needs more productivity on the ground to have anything trickle back down to women and children. Take away the generators, and the system falls apart. No one’s going to realistically and meaningfully care about men’s problems until that system is under threat.
Men won’t get traction until women and children come to harm. Until we’ve put so many women and children in the lifeboats and left so many men to drown that there’s no one alive to pull the oars.
Please. Women can (and do) pull oars just fine without men.
This is such a wrenching story. Having been through an awful divorce and a really awful custody battle, I can honestly say that very little justice happens in family court. It’s more about who has the most money and the most stomach for the fight. I am just so sorry for what happened to you and hope that you are on your way to a better future. Your kids need you — never let yourself start to think that they don’t.
Pauline:
In regards to money I would say yes and no.
Mothers win sole physical custody 80% of divorces to men’s 6% (13 times as often).
If divorce is a battle field, then it can be summarily presumed that mothers are winning that battle.
Obviously, there is a lot more going on then just generic corruption and toadying up to money in family courts.
Solving gender issues necessitates that we also discuss male discrimination, and female privilege.
ON BALANCE feminists have been wholly inadequate in this regard.
Feminists have even been so arrogant as to say the solution to men’s issues is MORE feminism.
Point of fact: there is very real evidence that the largest feminist organizations fight men’s equal rights in parenting tooth and nail.
For every anecdote on one side, there are anecdotes on the other. My boyfriend’s dad ran off with another woman when my boyfriend was ahout 15, never paid a penny of support and refused to see my boyfriend or his sister for years. My boyfriend tried to stay in touch, but his dad made it clear that he wanted nothing to do with him, ever. How awful is that? (Maybe that was because his Dad had gay MRA friends?). The fact is, some people are just bad regardless of gender or ideology.
Jill, since women can also conduct acts of violence against men, should we be dismissive of acts of violence against women because “there are anecdotes on the other side”?
Or is it maybe better to listen to without prejudgement?
But, we seldom if ever hear “the other side” of a deadbeat dad story. As if there can only be one side.
Such men are demonized as the scum of the earth, even if the situation is not of their making – seldom if every getting to tell their side of the story.
It isn’t “anecdotes”, but a widespread pattern of bias. I think about 30-40% of women earn more than their husbands. Why is it that women pay a vanishingly small amount of all the alimony? Women get majority custody of children over 90% of the time in most states. They collect more than 95% of all the child support paid. When men do get majority custody they are more than twice as likely to not get any child support, when they get it, it is usually less than women get. The few women ordered to pay child support or alimony are more likely to not pay than men. And less likely to face any kind of enforcement.
If a man calls the police to report domestic violence against him he is more likely to be arrested than the woman – even if the man was the one who called. When women accuse men of abuse – even if the abuse is proven false – women are almost never prosecuted. The hearings where women accuse men of abuse are ex-parte. The accused cannot represent himself, or even send a lawyer to represent him, and usually isn’t even notified that the hearing happened. The process for making an accusation is before a judge only, with a very low burden of proof – but if the accused wants to prosecute a false accusation it requires a full jury trial.
The bias is pervasive – and there is no way you are going to convince any man who has been through it that it happens just as often to women. It doesn’t.
Is Jill the same Jill Filipovic from Feministe? If it is the same, then guys, this is a woman who hates men. Sure, she likes to bang, when she can get it, and if not, she has her TSA approved sex toy.
Jill, people like you are trash. I´ve seen you comment repeatedly here excusing the behaviour of bad women when you should call it out. This is why feminists have so many men who hate them and work against them, sometimes out of ideological disagreement, but sometimes out of spite. Because people like Jill demonize men, and try to make bad behavior by women okay while bad behavior by men is to be publicized and made to be an example of how all men are.
It´s like racism. Racism is wrong, no matter who does it, and truly honest people will understand that. Same with all forms of discrimination and sexism.
Jill, you are one disgusting feminist.
Yes Jill, but let’s look at what you just said.
Boyfriend’s dad, by your own brief summnation, didn’t calculate to do hateful things like the thousands that are done with the support of the legal system in this country, ie, Mr. Price’s experience. Your little story here says someone was maybe irresponsible and then ignored his kid. Did the kid starve? In this country? Was the kid forceably denied things by power of law? Did the kid see his dad humilated and lie about his mother?
And what lead this man to do this? I am sure in your mind, it was just because he was evil. Maybe he ate crap and was disrespected everday for years until he had to get the hell out. I don’t know, you don’t know. But what I do know, for I have experienced a separation similar to that of Mr. Price’s, is that if his story is true, and based upon many many observations that what we have lived is very common in separations, that behavior by the women in his article is evil. Just like my ex’s behavior was calculated evil. Running away and then ignoring a problem that beat you down for years isn’t evil…..in fact…..if that is what happened, that is called logical and responsible. But you would have it that any man must eat crap for years, no matter what. That is evil as well…….
so wait…it’s wrong for jill to think her boyfriend’s dad is evil for running out on his family and leaving his son fatherless (which i really think had to have SOME degree of calculation, you know, the guy had to call a cab at some point) but it’s totally understandable for you to describe the author’s ex as unequivocally evil? i don’t know, you don’t know. maybe she ate crap and was disrespected everyday for years until she had to get the hell out.
geez. the mind circles are astonishing.
silly grrrl. stop pretending and quit while you’re behind.
So let’s suppose the stories are the same, both were justified to leave. One doesn’t associate with his child and doesn’t pay maintenance, the other invents lies about abuse of herself and her own children and their father, thus bringing in the police state on her behalf, represented by the police going to Mr. Price’s home and by his ex securing a lawyer and legally slandering him. This behavior destroys lives permanently, it is an agressive attack………non-association does not destroy lives and is not an attack. And you equate the two as equal….
You know that you have to push this strategy of equating separation with aggression, for massive amounts of men are going their own way and won’t engage you or the other femi-nazis anymore, and you’re too hateful to let it lie.
It’s very positive that you feminists constantly, consistently and progressively reveal so openly the hateful beings you have become. It is becoming so obvious for so many of us men, even ex-liberals like myself that bought the BS hook, line and sinker, as to why every society that ever amounted to anything over the past several thousand years saw it absolutely necessary to control the behavior of women, for when they don’t, these are the fruits………..
In this day and age, Jill, your story does not ring true. There are billion dollar govenment agencies at the ready to hunt down fathers who do not pay child support. Their professional licences, driver’s licences an passports are cancelled. They are subject to prison time.
B.O.G.U.S. on the BF’s dad story. If his mother wanted to have him strung up, she could have.
I stumbled upon your site and though I usually skip any “interests” on divorce I decided to stop and start to hear some stories. Unfortunately, after getting into a marriage with a “princess” of sorts, I had to make the decision to step away and end my marriage. I did everything within my means, but sadly despite all the opportunities that lay before us, she just couldn’t see past her wish to control everything/everyone and her abusive ways. My decision to divorce my wife has and is the most difficult things that I have ever faced. As a professional banker, first I suffered the economic collapse, only to accept a job in emerging markets. After two years, there the arab spring erupted, so I had to pack my bags and leave again… So, I’m unemployed, had to lose my family and trying to rebuild. I’ve turned to writing as a form of release, writing hundreds of pages over the course of the past year of ideas, thoughts and pains. I lived a pretty privileged life up until now. Lived in a quiet city, attended local schools and university. Played on the football team, got a good job pretty much out of school and now, I find myself lost?!? My fancy wedding, jewellery, travel and divorce has pretty much wiped me out. I have a son that I don’t see since we’re living in different countries now. Moving around as much as I have over the past few years, cost me any friends that I had and now that I’m divorced that group has been divided. She’s done a much better job bashing my character and attacked every ounce of integrity that I have left. I am broken and trying to heal the wounds. It’s been over a year since our separation, but it’s been one struggle after the next. I know that my story is different from yours, but what life has taught me is that everyone has a story. Everyone has pain that consumes them from time to time and only that very thing will help mend the pains. I don’t know when it will come, but pray that taking care of the basics and sticking to what I know to be true will help heal me.
I hear you brother.
As a general rule, everybody always assumes the man is at fault and the woman will make sure of that.
Lesson to the youngins…she’s holding all the cards.
Life’s rough when you peak in high school.
what a bunch of crap.
What an insightful comment.
I’m glad you told this story, W.F., it’s an important one for people to hear. If you’d ever like to submit follow-up posts — I’m always interested in “what happens after the after” — we’d love to hear that as well.
Lisa, I am curious to know how any self-respecting woman gives a platform to a man like WF Price? He has never attempted to hide his disdain for women and he makes it clear in his writings that he belives women are inferior to men. He also makes it clear that he despises feminism—the movement that made it possible for you to be the successful woman you are today. The invective for women that is spewed daily at The Spearhead should never be given a chance to be normalized. Why is the GMP giving voice to these kinds of men? Sure, all voices at the table is good in theory. But if we give voice to those who wish us harm (and those who want to undo the gains of the feminist movement, regardless of all their irrational and largely unfounded complaints about it, do not care about the harm this would do to you as a woman), and allow them to perpetuate harmful stereotypes about women, rape, domestic violence, etc. using a softer, kinder tone, aren’t we just dressing up the wolf in a cute little fluffy outfit and normalizing thier hateful invective towards women? That’s simply dangerous and grossly irresponsible, and even more heinous when it’s women who allow it to happen.
“He has never attempted to hide his disdain for women and he makes it clear in his writings that he belives women are inferior to men”
If you believe that men are more likely to rape, beat and abuse, doesn’t that sort of suggest you think men are inferior to women?
“and allow them to perpetuate harmful stereotypes about women, rape, domestic violence, etc. ”
Like what?
No. And don’t blame me for the fact that men are more prone to violence than women are. It is what it is and I’m thankful that the vast majority of men in my life have been wonderful, caring people. I love men.
To answer your second question, I’ll assume you’re not an MRA and simply tell you to visist his site and figure that out for yourself. Because if you are an MRA, there’s no point in wasting my time having a discussion with you.
“And don’t blame me for the fact that men are more prone to violence than women are.”
So you do think men are inferior to women! But you believe it’s justified because they’re _innately_ inferior to women.
Where have I heard these attitudes before?
“It is what it is and I’m thankful that the vast majority of men in my life have been wonderful, caring people.”
I know what you mean. I have this minority friend and she is totally not like the others. It’s simply lovely.
“And don’t blame me for the fact that men are more prone to violence than women are.”
Wow, that’s a pretty hateful sexist generalization you’re making about men.
I guess GMP comment moderation is having a slow day.
Is it OK if I make similar hateful sexist generalizations about women here at GMP?
I can even back them up with real statistical data if you’d like.
How about, “Don’t blame me if women are more prone to physically abuse their own children than men are.”?
I’m sorry, is that a sexist statement?
Keyster, no it’s actually not sexist to say that women are more prone to abuse children than men are. If it’s true, it’s true. Since when did speaking the truth become sexist? (And by truth, I mean verified, factual TRUTH, not the skewed domestic violence “data” compiled by Martin Fiebert or reasearch done by Donald Dutton, both of whom are rabid right wing conservatives. Bias much?) If women are more violent that men are, why isn’t that violence reflected in all the criminal activity that we see every day? And you want to try to put ME down for stating the truth? Nice try pal. Thanks for demonstrating exactly why you losers aren’t worth a debate. You don’t care about opinions that run contrary to yours, you just want to steamroll right over everyone who sees your crap for what it is, same as Daddy Files, same as all abusive bullies. Your game is tired and pathetic to those who see it for what it is.
Anon
Can you show us how Fiebrt and Dutton falsify all that data?
I’ve seen papers about how feminist researchers falsify their DV research and the unfounded and fraudulent criticism of scientific DV research community is used to attempt to discredit the scientific researchers but I’ve never actually seen proof of how the genuine scientific research community is falsifying their data. Feminists work off a more “well the results don’t conform to my sexist stereotypes and ideological view, therefore it must be wrong and attacked” mentality. Here are some papers on feminisms domestic violence fraud.
Processes Explaining the Concealment and Distortion
of Evidence on Gender Symmetry in Partner Violence
V74
Murray A. Straus
h ttp://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gender-symmetry-with-gramham-Kevan-Method%208-.pdf
THE POLITICS OF RESEARCH: THE USE, ABUSE, AND MISUSE
OF SOCIAL SCIENCE DATA—THE CASES OF INTIMATE
PARTNER VIOLENCE
Richard J. Gelles
ht tp://www.familieslink.co.uk/download/july07/Politics%20of%20research.pdf
(Essay) The Institutionalization of
Misinformation: VAWA II.
by Dr. Susan Sarnoff
ht tp://www.mediaradar.org/archivedArticles/Saroff_VAWA_II.htm
Women are more prone to emotional violence and psych abuse, as both the content and tone of your response clearly demonstrate. Dont blame and hate on us for your negative and harmful stereotyping of men. Also, this site is about men and its for men to define what makes for a good or bad man. Men have lots of anger and ressentiment, just like the women, its a function of the gender war. Stomping on mens feelings, making our expression thereof inherently bad and turning into something about your feelings and thoughts by claiming its harmful to you is emotionally selfish, represses mens feelings and implies your thoughts and feelings are superior.
Your days of self serving domination of gender politics, public discourse and agenda setting are numbered. After 50yrs of absence, men are starting to show up at your gender war and you dont like it.
You are frightening yourself. Stop blaming us for that.
Instead, maybe you could look to take a co-operative stance, rescind you tendency to dominate, admit your own failings and harmfulness as well as ours. And demonstrate that you mean what you’ve been saying all these years.
@Anon, October 29, 2011 at 12:49 am
It would be nice if you could sign next time with your name.
About the Spearhead and Mr. W.F. Price, I think, it is only fair that he is allowed to publish his opinion. He is merely posting his story and his point of view.
What’s wrong with that?
@Anon
Then the same should be said to you…….those who wish to irrevocable harm to men, society, children the family……and most importantly, women themselves, should not be allowed to speak. That means feminists………Have you called out Andrea Dworkin and the hosts of others for her absolutely hateful, intolerant speach against society and men?
What a hateful, intolerant hypocrite…….
I stumbled over here from the Spearhead. Thank you for clarifying that this is in fact, a crypto-feminist website. It is you who hates women.
@Anon: You are truly pathetic.
I’m not an MRA and I’ve never read any of this author’s pieces. But it doesn’t matter. Because he wasn’t hateful in this column. He told a story. A powerful one that is not often told. The fact that you want it silenced simply because he holds different beliefs than you is flat out disgusting. And you should be ashamed.
Furthermore, at least he signed his name to the piece. That’s more than you can say for your sorry self.
In the meantime, I’m thankful the GMP runs pieces from people of different backgrounds and beliefs. We’re all better for it.
Daddy Files, you’re no better than Welmer and all tbe other MRA’s that you pretend to know nothing about. You think I care about your opinion of me or anyone else? I’ve read your stuff, and you always come across as a pretty reasonable human being until some chick says something you disagree with, then you steamroll right over her without even stopping long enough to see if maybe she has a point. Like I said, there are some people that you just don’t need to bother engaging in a disscussion, and you are most definitely one of those people, so my conversation with you ends here. Have a good day. Or don’t, who cares?
Anon bleates standard issue feminist shaming language and storms off in a huff.
LOL @anon. From my perspective Welmer doesn’t hate women. What he does hate is the crap that is dumped endlessly on men from on high by women – especially western women – and the legal/political/social systems that enable them. Often populated by men. Surprise!
When a woman does a runner and deprives a man of his children should this be applauded? Should you be happy because one of the sisters is doing it for herself? Okay, the kids don’t get to see their dad that much, but they’ll get over it.
As one of the sisters (haven’t been a feminist for over 20 years – I grew up) I’d back Welmer every time.
Regarding the rhetoric over at The Spearhead? Yeah, it’s…. challenging…. but how about you look beneath the surface to see what is really being said?
Spare me the poor dad who got screwed over in court tripe. I was married to an abusive jerk who could stand up in court after terrorizing me and my children and play the victim to the hilt. And the judges always, ALWAYS, took his side. The awesome thing is that all these abused children who were abused through the courts by being taken away from their moms and given to their abusive dads are now becoming legal adults and are suing the courts. Now THAT’S a beautiful thing. I’m sick of all these abusive men getting what they want through the courts by judges who probably themselves go home at night and terrorize thier own families.
And no, I actually won’t look beneath the surface of the nasty comments over at the Spearhead. I KNOW what’s being said, and I wonder why I should be expected to presume the best of those who are spewing such hatred. I’m not a mindreader. Are you?
I’ll be the first to say that there are some legitimate issues for men, but it’s too bad that they’ve been hijacked by a bunch of rabid, abusive woman-haters because that leaves people who actually do care about those issues out in the cold. In order to stand with the MRA movement, I’d have to denounce my right as a woman to ever have a voice in anything ever again. The MRA movement wishes to set us back 50+ years and I’m just not down with that.
I don’t hate MRA’s because I’m a feminist. I became a feminist as a RESULT of the MRA movement.
So because one man did you over they’re all tarred with the same brush? Thanks for clearing that up.
I’ll tell my mate whose wife ran off with some fellow she met on the internet and then proceeded to gouge him via the courts over the next 5 years. She also moved away, refused him visitation, accused him of dv, and sundry other assorted happenings.
Then there’s my cousin whose wife had the kids accuse him of dv, so that he wasn’t even allowed to call the school for reports.
There’s plenty more where that came from. I’ve also got friends who’ve been done over by their children’s father (my own situation isn’t an easy one either), but there are more cases of women doing men over than vice versa.
Or is it just that you’re glad that you see the pendulum swinging in another direction and it’s about time that men suffered?
There are no winners in divorces where children are involved. None. There may be the occasional happy outcome, but that’s not a win. Ask the kids. They won’t say anything now, and they’ll never tell their parents, but they will tell their friends.
I would consider submitting an men´s rights piece here, but because of my job I need to do it anonymously. Is that possible?
Yes, that is fine. Thanks, we’d welcome the contribution. Send it to me, lisa at goodmenproject dot com, and mention your commenter name.
Where are the feminists, by the way? I´ve only seen three.
One who felt sorry for the author’s troubles.
One who dismissed them.
And one who criticized GMP for publishing this piece.
This proves my theory. When faced with antimale bias, feminists are silent or dismissive. Men are subhuman in the feminist ideology.
Just getting a late start on my GMP reading this weekend, but I’m here and suggesting coalition among parents, not identity-bashing.
I am a feminist and a sympathizer with the men’s rights movement. Seriously, who would be against men having equal rights with women? There are other internet communities where I thought I’d be welcome because of shared interests in men and masculinity, and where the invective in the comments threads is too acidic to grow anything besides more rigid groupthink. The GMP is different. It’s a “big tent.” As long as diverse perspectives continue to show up in the same threads, it’s a good indicator that this is a healthy medium to grow ideas.
“Seriously, who would be against men having equal rights with women?”
Is that a serious question? Feminists, obviously.
Anon says:
October 29, 2011 at 9:13 am
…..if you are an MRA, there’s no point in wasting my time having a discussion with you.
———-
Truly an arrogant and ignorant statement.
We need more MRAs with the GMP and I see no reason why not. As long as Marcotte and Hugo are writing for the GMP, why should others – MRAs – who do not agree with them be excluded?
I’m glad to see this posted here, it’s a story that needs to be heard. I don’t visit The Spearhead because I find a lot of the comments vile. I don’t visit MGTOW sites because, as a married man with kids, I don’t usually feel very welcome and I have zero interest in hanging out at PUA sites. Most of the other sites for men on the internet read more like sites for women to tell men how they want them to be. It would be nice to have a site that is for all men. Somewhere that addresses the concerns and problems men face; a place where all men can feel comfortable and not be shouted down because they dare live their lives contrary to the ‘party line’.
So sad to hear yet another story where a man who is trying to be a ‘good father’ has this task made more challenging due to a bitter divorce.
I am a ‘feminist’ and a friend of men. Personally I have known 4 wonderful, kind men whose stories of angry ex-wives making unfounded legal and abuse claims are exactly like this author.
It is the children who are left traumatized in the process. In all 4 of my friend’s cases it took years and thousands of dollars in legal fees to prove that these women had lied.
Many best wishes to the children and fathers involved.
Margo, instead of continuing in the fantasy make-believe world of feminism where everything will be all right if you just “wish” (ie: “Many best wishes to the children and fathers involved…..”), may I suggest some concrete action?
Denounce the hateful doctrine of feminism and be sincere about your beliefs. It is not possible for one to claim to be a feminist and be a friend to men. This is a very spiteful, mean hearted, spit-in-your-face-comment. Feminism is about the domination of men and female superiority. If you don’t know that, you are not informed at all about feminism, its leaders, doctrine and history. Furthermore, if this is the case, and you are ignorant of this, you aren’t a feminist. I could not claim to be a communist and know nothing about communist theory and objectives. This is simple logic.
So if you claim to be a feminist, you are not a friend to men, you are the enemy of all men.
So how much time and resources have you put into fighting for justice for these men that you know, considering that you are a friend to men?
I’ll be waiting…..but won’t hold my breath……….
My belief is that it is possible to be a ‘feminist and friend of men’. I dislike injustices based on gender no matter who is being affected. ‘Aservant’ wonders if I did anything to help my male friends as they went through painful custody battles. Since these men already had legal and financial advisors, I was able to just listen to their point of view as a caring friend. They told me they felt more relaxed to have their story heard and believed. Probably why this article was written and published.
I agree that not all “feminism” is bad. The original feminism was about allowing women to participate in society in the same ways as men. There are so many great women doctors today. What a waste they they were not always welcome in medical school.
A lot of us object to the “new feminism” that is all about attacking men as rapists and pedophiles. It infantilizes women as helpless perennial victims. So it hurts everyone.
Everyone who cares about men and women should support reforming our family courts because it hurts women and men. Marriage rates are unsurprisingly at an all time low, and the current divorce laws by being unfairly biased towards mothers, hurt both the male and female children, and hurt not just fathers, but everyone in the father’s extended family: his parents, brothers and sisters etc.
If we’re going to change things we need allies, “good women” like you Margo.
Thanks for the positive nod, Linguist.
I was lucky and priviledged to be raised by an amazing father, now deceased. Part of how I try and honor him, is to look for ways to help more men have the resources and support they need to be as caring as he was.
I love the Good Men Project because it deals realistically with the hopes, stresses and challenges many of todays men (and women) are facing.
Linguist, where are all these great women doctors you speak of? I am going to assume you are in the western world, probably the US. I’m not singleing out women here, rather doctors in general. You haven’t noticed that western peoples, in particular Americans, have the so called best health care in the world (most advanced, most money invested) and yet are the sickest? They are dropping like flies from diabeties, heart disease, cancer, the list goes on and on. The modern medical profession, which is largely based on pathology, is just a racket between big pharm and parasitical greed mongers posing as health practicioners. I’ll make an exception for trama care, that is something that is truely miraculous.
The level of morality and corruption amongst Western peoples has fallen to an all time low, how much lower can it go? They idolize every type of filth under the sun……….Imagine, being a so-called “successful” American doctor…..”Your daughter will die without a bone marrow transplant…….I can save her…..for 250,000 dollars….well, maybe…. she may die anyway…..mmmmmm…..you only make 40,000 a year and have two other kids and couldn’t afford the insurance or they didn’t cover it? Well, see if you can get a loan….I’ll be on the golf course waiting for your answer.”
And the average American admires this wicked power so much he/she stuffs their fat faces while watching Grey’s Anatomy and countless other shows made to their medical “gods”….while their relatives go off to another land and murder countless foreigners and steal their wealth for their right to keep living in this defilement…..then they walk hand in hand as they attend a Slutwalk in the name of “empowerment”……..
But I guess by letting women do what men always did, it is all working out just great, according to you……….I guess our values are extremely different…….
Better be pretty sure their isn’t a God and judgement, “mainstream” Americano………
A few feminists show up to criticize him so Welmer re-blogs at The Spearhead and they show up to defend him.
Come on Welmer, grow a pair and take a shot at debating outside of your echo chamber where you already don’t debate.
I don’t have the time to read much MRA stuff these days, as World Domination(TM) is taking up too much time. Today is the first time in a week I’ve had to have a look, so wouldn’t have known otherwise.
Cheers!
The Spearhead is NOT an MRA site. At best, it is an MGTOW site with a lot of traditionalist reactionaries.