There has never been a man on screen quite like this Jamie character. What does that mean to the business of entertainment, and to the portrayal of gender violence on screen?
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Last night I went to Paley Fest with my girlfriend to watch a Q&A (and a new episode) of Outlander, the new Starz series based on the epic Diana Gabaldon books. As I sat among a 90% majority of screaming (grown) women, I caught a glimpse of how gender (and gender violence) is going to change in the media in the coming years.
…shows led by white male cisgendered protagonists are becoming extinct.
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We’ve already seen that shows led by white male cisgendered protagonists are becoming extinct. Production companies are finally aware that the market is not binary, and they are responding with shows that experiment with different types of masculinities, with female leads, and with more actual diversity instead of tokenism. We still have work to do, but it’s happening. While this first season is set in Scotland (think white people everywhere), there are departures here that will lead the way for nuanced gender and sexuality conversations for seasons to follow.
If you don’t know this series, it’s about a woman in post WWII Britain named Claire who falls 200 years into the past, emerging in Scotland in the mid 1700s. She is torn between two worlds at war, two husbands (eventually), and two distinctly different sensibilities about women’s rights.
The protagonist is a woman, but everyone in the audience was there because of a man – Jamie Fraser – who executive producer Ronald D. Moore (of Battlestar Gallactica) calls “the king of men.”
There has never been a man on screen quite like this Jamie character.
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There has never been a man on screen quite like this Jamie character. He’s tough and brash, heroic and noble, but he’s also invested in love and intimacy. He is bent by traditions of the time, but also willing to rethink some of the ones his strange new wife protests (like spanking her as punishment for disobedience).
Deep down, I think many women want to have a husband they can call “master” as Claire does in moments of ecstasy…
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There is an argument between Claire and Jamie about his concept of wife as property, which sets up the tension that so many women I’ve spoken with found both challenging and titillating. Deep down, I think many women want to have a husband they can call “master” as Claire does in moments of ecstasy… which I find challenging because it seems like a mixed signal at first. Later, I learned it’s not about one being master over another, it’s about both being masters of each other. She is his master, and he is hers. There’s a mutual responsibility and tethering to each other that entices so many women (and men).
As a feminist man with cursory knowledge of the story, I found myself shocked at what the next half-season will hold. There is a wife-spanking scene which plays as comical, but creates a valuable inner dialogue for the man afterward about how he wants to treat his wife in spite of tradition. There will be a male rape scene later in the season that will shake up our awareness of the trauma of male survivors in a way that I can’t remember happening since American History X.
In all of this, I sense the tables are turning.
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In all of this, I sense the tables are turning. The women in the room seem to be aroused by the idea that a male character would be the victim instead of a female character – it seemed sickening to consider this until I realized again we’ve been shown female rape scenes continuously since In Harm’s Way came out in 1965 and Kirk Douglas’s character clearly rapes John Wayne’s daughter-in-law before martyring himself in a twisted old boys’ sense of retribution.
Rape of women has been a plot device for ages, and now the tables are turning. As an activist against sexual assault for 12 years, I detest the glorification of this kind of violence, but I also understand why this is what we should expect to happen in scripts not quite as eloquently realized as this one will be.
What do you think Outlander fans? Am I missing something?
I have to start by saying I’m not familiar with the Outlander series (book or tv). But I have tried to watch Game of Thrones. It was recommended to me by several people so I thought I’d give it a go. First episode had a rape scene off screen. I felt nauseated but thought I’d give it another chance. Second episode had a brutal rape scene where the camera positioned the audience as a voyeur relishing the victim’s pain. I felt so sickened by this that I stopped watching then and there. Why we need to feed off of other’s… Read more »
Flibber, I understand how you feel but I am confused about people using the term “entertainment” with regards to all television and movie productions. Are we only to see the Disney side of life? Even Disney made most of his characters orphans whose parents have been brutally killed. Is Disney, too, not entertainment? Fairy tales are overflowing with orphans and mistreated children. Cinderella is leading the box office. What’s so pleasant about her youth? It’s terrible. Child abuse. I love a good comedy as much as the next person, but I want to see serious, thought provoking, inspiring, troubling and… Read more »
First… I go to bed with an Outlander fan each night. It’s part of our home. I’m on your team here, ladies. The story and the characters are solid and intriguing, and I like the show a lot. Second… she’s a sadist, y’all. She derives pleasure from Jamie’s rape scene, she’s said so herself on camera multiple times. When asked which character is most like herself… she says BJR… who is literally a sadist. To those who would cite George R.R. Martin as a counterpoint… yes, he’s also clearly a sadist (and clearly more sexist). Sadism isn’t new and it… Read more »
Dale, I think you may have misinterpreted (or heard misquoted versions of) things she has said over the years, particularly the remark about which character is most like herself. I’ve read many posts and discussions by her (which sometimes include references to things she’s said in public) over the last decade or so (we hang out at the same internet watering hole, the Compuserve Books & Writers Forum) and I cannot recall her ever saying or even implying that BJR was the character “most like herself.” Certainly all her characters issue from within herself; where else would they come from?… Read more »
Hi Beth, thanks for the considered response! I think it was a Paley Fest interview from 2014 when asked who she most identified with, she told a story of sitting in a book group and being told how horrible and sadistic BJR is… and she says something like “they didn’t know they were looking at Black Jack.”
What you are missing is that this story was written well over 20 yrs ago & not for your tv screen today. What you are missing is that you are viewing it from your experiences and sensibilities of your life of today and not of the intent of the day & how it was written. It is what most people do but you & many others make the mistake of putting your own “stuff” into the pictures on your screen and into your opinions. Diana is not a sadist. She is a story teller. A good one. Her desire to… Read more »
Amen, Julie Weathers! All credibility is lost when a reviewer bolts out of the gate with the main male character’s name misspelled. A “cursory knowledge” of the books and the attendance at one panel do not qualify a person to write a review with any substance. One simply cannot view 18th century mores (or 1940s) with the sensibilities (or sensitivities) of a 21st century feminist. Humans have always been good and evil. It takes a magnificent writer such as Diana Gabaldon to weave a beautiful and achingly painful series like “Outlander.”
There are moments when modern feminism creeps into the dialogue… so why can’t it creep into the plot?
Dale,
One thing I wish you would do, if you’re going to write about this, is get the character’s name right. His name is Jamie, not Jaime.
To those complaining about the violence, Diana does a tremendous amount of research. The books are very much historicals and well-written ones at that. Violence comes with the territory.
Thank you Julie… my mistake. I’ve corrected it now.
Dale,
I appreciate you covering this event. Had I been there, I would have been thrilled to see all of the actors as I’m sure many were. The producers, director, writers and actors are doing a remarkable job with a series we wondered would make it to the screen. Personally, Dougal is my man.
I’d say OUTLANDER has done fairly well for a book written in 30 minutes stretches in the middle of the night for practice to see if she could actually write a novel.
I agree… Dougal is the man.
In my opinion, Diana’s books are case studies of the eternal pull of good vs. evil, the effect that evil has on peoples’ lives, and what it takes to overcome those experiences. Her characters, both male and female, are nuanced and flawed, even Jamie “the king of men” Fraser. Trauma is not dealt with lightly or trivially – the long-term effects over a lifetime of PTSD is explored in her novels in a way that enlightens and even educates readers. I empathize with those who have difficulty reading about violence (or watching on TV), but the larger story is that… Read more »
I totally agree, Connie. Good vs Evl and Forgiveness are strong themes in the Outlander series. I wish Ron Moore had never used the term “King of Men” for Jamie because it simplifies his very complex, human character. He does indeed have faults like all of us, but grows and learns. Jamie’s attack/rape by BJR has long lasting effects on his life and he finds the ability to curb his vengeance over and over again. The character has morals and most of all, honor. But he is above all human. Not perfect.
I think you are way off base in saying that women are aroused by the idea of Jamie being a victim. In fact, I think most female viewers are very repulsed by the whole idea of Jamie being raped. Many have said the can’t or won’t watch those scenes. I believe women are watching Outlander to see the amazing relationship between Jamie and Claire. Their love scenes show two people who are passionate and equal.
I agree with CLW, Kelly, Dorothy and Allison.
I would also like to point out that I think it does a disservice to women to claim that they were all there only to see Sam. Yes a lot of women were screaming and cheering for Sam, but I beg to differ that they were ALL only there to see one man. Had I been there, I would’ve been excited to see not just Sam and Cait, but also to see Diana and Tobias too.
You are missing something if you haven’t read the books! There is so much more in the books, although they are doing a mind-blowing job of getting the show as close to the books as possible! Bad things happen to everybody, that’s life. Diana’s books are about life! I don’t want to read fairy tales, where all is perfect! Diana is my favorite author, right up on the top of my list, with Anne Rice & Dan Brown! She can make magic with words!
I have read the whole book series and there is not way in heck am I watching the Wentworth ep, I watch tv to be entertained not horrified and while I know horrible things happen in the world and to people, watching my fav characters get brutalized in not my idea of entertainment, no matter how excellent the acting is.
While I appreciate the discussion of gender here, the idea that the female fans in the audience at PaleyFest were somehow “aroused” by the idea of Jamie being tortured and raped is ludicrous, any more than the fans “enjoy” Claire being raped in the books and series. And I guess it means we have a very long way to go in terms of gender portrayal in the media! As for Diana being a sadist, I think that’s just as ridiculous. The scenes were difficult to read–and I think difficult to write– and will be even harder to watch. But I… Read more »
Diana Gabaldon is a brilliant writer. She doesn’t pull punches. The rape that she portrays in her books were commonplace in the time that she writes them, when women and prisoners were treated as less than human. Whatever the reason for them – they stem from violence. Rape is about violence and it was a violent time. Why is this so hard to imagine? Why is this now a discussion about sexuality? The sexuality…i.e. the relationship between Claire and Jamie is beautifully written in the books and excellently portrayed by Sam Heughan and Caitriona Balfe…as is the relationship between Claire… Read more »
I agree 100%! Diana is my favorite author, I have read all the books about 20X each!!
I agree 100%
Diana Gabaldon is a brilliant writer. She brings to life characters and situations that are raw and emotional. The time period in which these novels take place are foreign to us because we live in a society centuries from when these took place. We cannot forget that there was a time when violence and rape were common (not that these are not common today), and it just so happens to be common in Diana Gadaldon’s novels. Diana is not trying to glorify rape or excuse violence. It simply is what goes on in Scotland (and everywhere else) in the mid… Read more »
Couldn’t have said it better i totally agree with you
The fantasy of time travel & Scotland lured me to the Outlander books. However, the amount of violence against both main characters particularly Jamie is horrific and astoundingly tedious. I skimmed over parts due to the feeling of here we go again, another flogging, thrashing or rape scene. In the book as well as the show much of what is done to these characters could have been conveyed without beating us all over the head with it. The only reason I continued reading the books is because they settle in my home state of NC and I wanted to see… Read more »
Thank you Mr. Vaughn! You’re the first person I’ve read that’s written what I believe. Diana Gabaldon is a sadist. When she told Sam at Paleyfest how much she enjoyed watching him get tortured and raped I was appalled. All he could do was shake his head. I could barely finish reading that part…I’m pretty sure I won’t be watching it.
All of her main characters have truly horrible things happen to them…and the bad guys get away without much punishment. I love the books, but that’s what bugs me the most about them.
When I first read Outlander I couldn’t read the scene with BJR and Jamie and even now don’t know if I’ll watch that episode. But I do think some of the “bad guy”s get dealt with. Spoiler alert here if you haven’t read the other books. Jamie castrates BJR in Dragonfly although not revenge for himself but Fergus. When Claire gets raped in later books the men slay the rapists even the one who got away gets justice from Jamie in the last book. Bree gets to “take care of” Bonnet and there are others like Ian getting the brother… Read more »
I’ve read all the books several times. What the confusion is, it is a series; all the bad guys get theirs a book or two down the line. Claire makes many mistakes and suffers the consequences; she saves Jamie, not once but many times. Jamie does the same for most everyone he knows at one time or another, but throughout his life misunderstanding and doubt messes him up. Diana isn’t a sadist (no matter what she says) but in eighteenth century life itself was a gamble and a long life was rare. There are questions I have but expect if… Read more »
Sorry-no way to edit spelling mistakes!
i enjoy watching Outlander for the interesting characters, the beautiful portrayal by the actors, for the gorgeous scenery, fior the subtle tennsion (Dougal’s interest in Claire), and for the comic relief. These are the things I like to think about and that uplift my life. No where in my purposes of enjoyment is rape. No where. All of the violence inherent in that day and time could be mire subtly suggested by a more refined treatment, both in book (why I never got through the books) and in the series. If I were to watch the intense violence of the… Read more »
It is not possible to play the video.
Tables are turning because there are some rare exceptions? Please. I watch American shows and movies and only see the same thing over and over again, the female body is much more sexualized and always in a more “submissive” way than what happens on the rare occasions the male body is, rape of women is considered erotic by men, most protagonists are straight white males (look at the Oscars, that happens even more in movies), a sick culture who loves glamorizing misogyny, gendered insults against women in rampant, etc. Most men have robotic/macho/cold expression, many love abusing one another, are… Read more »
And where are you from, July?
Rape scenes of males or females is really not the point. Perhaps gratuitous but i’ve a feeling that from a 1400 to 1800 point of view not too far off. Anyway i think the bigger issue is what you just said about how gender is being portrayed. And make no mistake this becomes a huge impact on the general public and their perceptions of normalcy, reality and infusion of even a bit of fantasy. A huge shift.
It’s challenging material for me. Diana Gabaldon is a true sadist. I can’t tell if she’s two steps back or two steps forward for feminist themes in media, or if she’s both.
I agree that she is cruel to her characters, especially to Jamie. I tried to read the first book and decided that it was a waste of time even though some of my friends love it and have read all the books. Then I watched the first two episodes of the series on Starz and loved the characters and production. I read the first book, part of the second, and bits of the third. No more for me. But I will watch the series for the actors who play Jamie, Claire, Frank, Murtagn, Angus, and Rupert, Dougal..all of them, actually.… Read more »
You could ask the same about George R. R. Martin’s Game of Thrones. Anyway, this is fiction as you said. Diana said several times that the ups and downs are just to keep the audience interested. Nobody wants to read a predictable story with no emotions and surprises. In what concerns to Jamie he’s like a cat with many lives. How could she write so many books set in such a dangerous time, with the adventure she always puts in her books, without saving her hero again and again?? but she does it in a very realistic and believable way:… Read more »
Martin’s books should be called Song of Rape and Slaughter… I’m reading them right now and I can’t believe anyone could write so much incessant incest and carnal carnage. I don’t think I can finish the series… it drags me down so much. Why muddy a decent story of chess with so much constant rape?
I bought the first four in a boxed set. Read the first one and took the set to a used bookstore and traded it for other books.
Ginger, there has been so much written about OUTLANDER, the characters, the author, the reasonings behind this scene or that scene, teachers using the book to teach abc. You name it, it’s been studied. I’m not really sure why you need someone to do a psychological look at what she does to characters. “No man could survive what happens to him.” As the wife and mother of bullriders and bronc riders, I can tell you a person might be surprised what humans can survive and not just due to the miracles of modern medicine. “These books are not literary fiction.… Read more »
Your friend has a very simplistic definition of literary fiction even though she “is a writer and reads a lot of literary books.” Diana creates good characters, and I will watch the Starz series because of those characters and for the actors. The second part of this first season and the next season should be good television. After that…the stories will need to be edited, edited.
I think you can go to any writer’s forum or discussion and get into a debate that rages for days and weeks, if not months, about what is literary. The only thing a person will take away from it is…it’s all subjective. Look at the debates about GOLDFINCH.
Said friend also has two degrees giving her a fair insight into literature, but it still boils down to opinion and hers is as valid as yours I would imagine.
Enjoy the shows. I’m sorry all you see are interesting characters, but that again is a personal insight.
There are debates about Goldfinch. I like the book and don’t want to debate it. I have two degrees in English, and, yes, my opinion is as valid as hers. You are a devoted fan of the Outlander books. I’m not. I will continue to watch the show, but I will not watch DG interviews. And I do not want to debate why with you.
Ginger, you said: “Diana Gabaldon probably can’t tell you why she treats her characters for badly or why Jamie in particular is hurt repeatedly.” Actually, she’s spoken of this many times, the latest just in the last day or so on her Facebook page, which statement was requoted here as well: http://forums.compuserve.com/discussions/Books_and_Writers_Community/_/_/ws-books/83478.22?nav=messages I’ll excerpt one paragraph that speaks to your statement in particular: “…the reason why Bad Things happen to people in my books is not to excite the reader in a watching-a-train-wreck ghoulish sort of way. It’s to reveal the true nature and deep character of the person to… Read more »
My question, to which I will never get an answer, is why does she do this? What happened or does happen in her life to lead to this repeated cruelty? We writers use our experiences in our writing even if we aren’t aware that we are using them. As a reader on one book of hers and a skimmer for two more, I’m not invested in the books the way you obviously are, but I am curious about where cruelty comes from. And I’m curious why she almost gleefully looks forward to watching the horrors of BJR and Sam in… Read more »
Oh, my. Well, I needed that laugh.
In the essay to which I linkekd in my previous reply, she did answer why she wanted to watch that scene. If you don’t want to follow the link, you can read the same essay on her Facebook page.
It is irrelevant where she draws from to create the cruelty between Jamie and BJR/other characters. Whether there are certain elements of her life she pulls this from is ultimately her business. The fact of the matter is, is that cruelty is a part of Jamie and Claire’s world. Since the beginning of time people have been inconceivably violent to one another whether this results in emotional, physical, verbal, psychological, or sexual abuse. To be honest, this is all portrayed in Diana’s novels. This isn’t to be sadistic, as many people have called her, but because it proves that Jamie… Read more »
After reading the responses to my original post, I see that I do not belong in the world of Diana and her loyal fans. I don’t like or enjoy the books. I can’t read them. I don’t like reading or listening to Diana’ explanations for doing what she does. I like the show. I like the performances of the actors. I like what the screen writers are taking from the original material. I like seeing the costumes. I like seeing Scotland. That’s enough. She doesn’t need my thoughts and opinions and neither do you and her other fans. No more… Read more »
Dale, your comment is preposterous! These books were written over 20 year ago, nobody is forced to read them, DG is one of the most loved authors of all time. This is how life was in the 18th century, in fact it was probably even worse than this. It is not real….it’s a story written by a master storyteller! Nobody told you that you HAD to read it. Put on your big boy pants!!
I’ve read a bit of her books and found her prose to be monotonous, personally; but I’ll let you be the judge of master storytelling, Penny. As for her being a sadist… she openly admits that Jack Randall is the character most like herself, and Randall is literally a sadist. Is it for me to judge her in her capacity within gender norms and women’s rights? Yes, I work at a site specifically meant for this purpose. Her job is to sell books, my job is to make commentary. That’s about as defensive as I’ll get on this point.
Diana didn’t say she was most like BJR. She was having a meal with some fans who were saying how horrible BJR was and Diana just said that they must have forgotten that she was BJR, meaning she created and wrote BJR. An author is all her characters – good and bad. Diana is anything but a sadist. What a horrible thing to say about her. As for her comment at Paley, she was referencing an earlier comment in a panel at ComicCon when she mentioned that scene. It was early in the filming and she was anxious to see… Read more »
Dale – I don’t have nearly enough time to talk about the rape scenes in the first half of Outlander. I thought they were well done EXCEPT the last one, which I found way, way, way too eroticized. The shots of her bottom, of her breast, were way too sexy/sexualized/eroticized. The other ones conveyed suffering and what was happening WITHOUT gratuitous shows of her body parts. I watched it twice (my husband watched the series after I did, and I wanted to watch that last episode with him to get his take) and I felt really even more strongly about… Read more »