Sasha Pixlee wonders why we at The Good Men Project hold masculinity as close as a magical talisman.
A version of this post first ran on More Than Men.org, originally titled “What Happened to The Good Men Project?”
Here’s the deal: Patriarchy isn’t just about controlling women. In large part, yes, that’s what it’s about, but it’s also about defining a very narrow idea of what a “real man” is. Our culture is saturated in patriarchal ideas. No one escapes it and even the best of us need to watch out for what we have unconsciously internalized. Sometimes it’s obvious, like when I am horrified to find myself surprised that a female screenwriter’s partner is another woman. (Where the fuck did that come from and how can I get it out of my head right the fuck now?) Sometimes it’s subtler things like “men are like this, and women are like that.”
That false duality of male/female is a trap. If you’re the kind of person who is reading this for reasons other than trolling I’m sure you know, rationally, that saying something is male vs female is ridiculous. We’re better than that. We all think that “girly” LEGOs are stupid, but how many of us think about things like “women like clothes and men like sports*”? That sort of thing is happening over at TGMP–many of the writers are blind to their internalized ideas of what men and women are like.
When you have a this-or-that paradigm you inevitably end up with some sense of an adversarial relationship between the two groups. If you are married so strongly to the idea that you have men and you have women and they they are somehow importantly different, you’re creating a conflict. You are laying the foundation for the woman-as-emasculating-nag stereotype and the man-as-insensitive-buffoon role. (Let’s not even get started on trans issues. The comparative paucity of TGMP articles on their “transgender” tag is a problem, and is telling.)
At MoreThanMen, where I am the content manager, we are recognizing the gender role we find ourselves in and the privilege it gives us in society, but we want to make it clear that these are issues that are human. They are not male/female, black/white, gay/straight, able-bodied/disabled or trans/cis. We’re subverting our privilege by using the extra attention it gives us to try and wake people up to the problems of privilege.
In retrospect it seems obvious that TGMP has been obsessed with masculinity from the start. They are trying to redefine it, and that’s a step in the right direction to be sure, but they are still obsessed with retaining it. They hold masculinity close to them like a magical talisman and that means femininity (or anything non-masculine) is the Other.
Why don’t we all try and cut that shit out?
* We need to stop thinking about men who care about fashion and women who care about football as exceptional. We are all exceptions.
—
photo by dust / flickr
It’s very usefull information that you share over here. I wanna thank you for sharing this and I wanna visit your website more when you’ll keep up the good work and share more posts like these. http://musica.leggiweb.com
We need to stop thinking about men who care about fashion and women who care about football as exceptional. We are all exceptions. Clearly, you don’t mean “exceptional” in the sense of excellence, but in the sense of being exceptions to the general rule or tendencies. The thing is, we can’t all be exceptions in that latter sense, because then there’d be no general rule or tendency to notice deviations from. (Please don’t nitpick the “rule” part of “general rule” – I’m not talking about regulations, but the kinds of patterns we notice and make sense of our world with.)… Read more »
+1, actually two thumbs up
great post Marcus, i completely agree
Agreed, Marcus, great post.
IMHO, the real toxic gender dynamic is ‘men act/women are acted upon’.
So before you cast aspersions on men who like sports or the silliness of girly lego, perhaps you should spare a moment to consider how often you focus on women as ‘acted upon’ and promote theories that boil down to ‘women are acted upon/men act.’
I find it interesting that the first paragraph from the original didn’t get printed here. In retrospect it seems obvious that TGMP has been obsessed with masculinity from the start. They are trying to redefine it, and that’s a step in the right direction to be sure, but they are still obsessed with retaining it. They hold masculinity close to them like a magical talisman and that means femininity (or anything non-masculine) is the Other. This is an incorrect conclusion. The desire to hold onto masculinity does not mean that feminity (and non-masculine) is the Other. At least now with… Read more »
Patriarchy was a word invented by women who had the luxury of not having to worry about class or race. This is the world we live in.. Class>Race>Gender. We don’t live in a patriarchy and what you argue about control can just as easily be said of feminism.
Look at Clariss Thorn’s lack of acceptance in the feminist community for her BDSM sexuality.
Look at the attack on Tom’s piece by Marcotte et al.
And look at you describing the GMP with feminism’s favorite man hating buzz word “creepy”
Spare me the lecturing!
“Patriarchy was a word invented by women who had the luxury of not having to worry about class or race. ” Sorry but that is wrong! Do you just invent these ideas? P^/ Patriarchy as a term/word has it’s origins in the English language from the 15th century – Sir Robert Filmer. I think there was little doubt of his sex. His work PATRIARCHA OR THE NATURAL POWER OF KINGS 1680 deals with the Divine Right of Kings – which of course can even be traced trough the Bible! The word also has it’s roots in Ancient Greek and the… Read more »
That was knee jerk. Be difficult all you want, but at least give SOME respect to the context in which I chose to use the word “invent”. You are much to smart to play the nitpick game. Care to offer a better word for the meaning I wish to convey?
@ i don’t believe you “Care to offer a better word for the meaning I wish to convey?”. Suborned – seized upon – hijacked – took over – shanghaied – abducted – appropriated – carried off – cozened – diverted – lifted – looted – made off with – misappropriated – pinched – pirated – plagiarised – plundered – poached – purloined – ran off with – sacked – snitched – spirited away – swiped – took – walked off with. P^) Those any use in relation to the context you wish to portray? I does not mean I agree… Read more »
Thank you. Misappropriated is much better, but still not the exact sentiment I’m looking for. Hmm.
@ i don’t believe you – I do think that “Suborned” is the closest to your ideas.
Again, it does not mean I agree with you – but it may well play better across many messages and ideas! P^)
I know you don’t agree. You wanna say why?
How about “selectively redefined”?
I like that.
“selectively redefined”? Too wishy washy and lacking impact! P^/ What he needs is a nice way to be nasty – so “Suborned”, with all it’s complexity of meaning, is better. sub·orn – verb (used with object) – to bribe or induce (someone) unlawfully or secretly to perform some misdeed or to commit a crime. Of course there is no “someone” to induce or bribe, so it implies that the people Suborning are is fact inducing and bribing themselves – and that implies delusion or mendacity. Nice reflexive implied insult with plenty of scope for plausible deniability as well -if you… Read more »
A swing and a miss.
The feminist use of the word has nothing to do with the historic use.
This is the world we live in.. Class>Race>Gender.
here in the uk, it is class then gender then ‘race’
jameseq – that does depend on age and whether you pre or post date the Midwich Cuckoos – AKA Maggie thatchers Children or the Balire Babes – which of course also depends upon political leanings!
Oh for the old days, and the three day week! P^)
MH i take you point as you are older than i am, and have a greater perspective.
from my vantage(im 36), my perception is that those under 50 or so,
see generally class then gender then race.
@jameseq – so you are a Child of Thatcher! Where did I leave me garlic and wooden stakes! P^) Odd how Mrs T promised an end to class – equal opportunity for all no barriers from race – and she was keeping gender because she liked to do the house-wifey bits and keep he male colleges working late into the early hours whilst she made eggs and bacon to keep them going. P^) There is no such things as society she declared – and then went potty for a Global Economy and Multinational power brokers who thrive in a global… Read more »
I agree completely. I also agree with the first paragraph which is present in the original article but has not been reposted on the TGMP.
I read this piece and was wondering why it was here? – so I clicked the links and read the Original[sic] piece it was derived from, and it sort of became clearer. So GMP is not as others think it should be? – and so they are providing Friendly(?), Helpful(?) Constructive Criticism(?) to help the wayward child back onto the straight and narrow! “In retrospect it seems obvious that TGMP has been obsessed with masculinity from the start.” In retrospect? It seems obvious? Obviously Retrospective to who? ” “The Good Men Project is a glimpse of what enlightened masculinity might… Read more »
M.H., to quote Slim Pickins from ‘Blazing Saddels’ “God dang, you use your mouth prettier than a $10 whore”. Seriously, this is just another ‘hit and run’ attack from a Hugo wannabe that this site seems to be taking since Lisa Hickey stood up to the idealouges (Feministas) who tried to ‘highjack’this site recently. I just love to hear about my “male privilage”. Let’s see , after 36 years or so in construction I have, a replacement knee, screws and a plate holding my right arm togeather, no cartalige left in my right wrist., torn rotator cuff in my left… Read more »
Sasha, there is an over lap of male / female brains of 10%- 25%. Society has to acknowledge this but making acknowledging that there are a differences a taboo isn’t the way to go about it. As for “Patriarchy being about controlling women”. The suppression of female sexuality is something that women do women http://www.femininebeauty.info/suppression.pdf . There is a study that found that religions have mainly female support and the men that are more likely to be involved tend to be less masculine and typical examples of men, I think that’s interesting because here we again with feminism, being told… Read more »
I’m not sure that you can be a skeptic and follow a faith based ideology at the same time. I think that the atheist movement lost a lot of credibility by being co-opted by feminists. Also, Amanda Marcotte making false assertions, misscharacterizing and telling out right lies about us might always be a good thing for you, but that doesn’t mean that its really always a good thing.
The problem with the patriarchy is that it is another word that modern feminists have co-oped and changed the definition of to suit their needs. When something doesn’t fit into the current definition of the patriarchy then they change the definition again. Kinda reminds of of the other sacrament in modern feminism, Domestic Violence. It went from physical violence , to emotion violence to ‘calling someone names’ to ‘I am afraid of him, he has never done anything to hurt me, but I am afraid’. Same with patriarchy, apparantly it is the patriarchy that has caused society to pour tons… Read more »
Agreed. If the author wants to “cut the crap,” he can start by dropping the loaded and dishonest term “patriarchy” when describing our culture, and instead talk about gender roles and expectations.
He could also reconsider why he’s complaining about those awful Project folks who defend masculinity as something good and worthwhile, and reconsider why he and his allies so often treat it as something evil and worthless. How about a reasonable analysis of both good AND points, hmm? That would be a good way to “cut the crap.”
correction: “both good AND bad points.”
Gender role has a long history of success as a survival strategy for humans. You see we are over 7 billion now. Masculinity has been the magic talisman which allowed us to thrive.
Rapses – I know you have a thing about Evolution and views that are close to Desmond Morris – him of the magic talisman! I would recommend (again) that you read “The Descent of Woman: The Classic Study of Evolution” by Elaine Morgan. It is rather an eye opener! P^) Page 25 is my favourite – discussing Mrs heavily pregnant Ape-man and her life on the savannah. It’s funny what she turned into most often as evolution grinds forward. As Elaine Morgan points out, the thing Mrs heavily pregnant Ape-man turned into most often was a leopard’s dinner. Mr Ape-man… Read more »
There is a lot of difference between evolution theory and feminist propaganda. BTW, Elaine Morgan had no credential to have her theory taken seriously. She should have stick with her main profession that is screenwriting. Science and fictions do not make good friends.
@ Rapses – one does wonder at your credentials when it comes to screen writing too! P^)
@ MediaHound
Do you want to play dirty?
Two propositions in one day! I’m soiled for choice! P^)
Though, I prefer good clean fun and bubble bath!
“I’m soiled for choice”
I’m going to choose to believe your voice recognition software glitched again.
LOL – another one for the archives! P^)
Why do I cling to it? Because it’s been armor to me and a moral compass in tougher times. My own authentic self or whatever isn’t always great (or even good), but I count my personal failings as failings of my masculinity, of my being. Being true to yourself is nonsense; being good is the only thing that matters. I’m not sure how many articles you think there ought to be on transgender issues. It’s a subject which directly affects a tiny minority of us. I’m not at all opposed to there being more but, sorry, it’s just not very… Read more »
Here’s the deal: The theory of patriarchy is a tautological argument: patriarchy is used to describe the state of the world, and the evidence used to “prove” the existence of patriarchy is…the state of the world. It’s just circular reasoning parading as an actual theory. Other arguments that are based on tautologies include most major religions and conspiracy theories. When someone has bought into the idea of “the patriarchy” they are actually closing their mind to important avenues of social science inquiry. The truth of the matter is that “patriarchy” may not exist at all. Consider: if you examined only… Read more »
“The good news is, at least it doesn’t get traction outside of “Gender Studies.”
The religion does reach outside g/s, into the media, the legal system, into gov….
True and sad Mike. Thing is there are certainly patriarchal forces at work. However for some odd reason the fact that these forces favor a small portion of men leads to the entire system being named after something that is associated with men in general? If the folks that are so hell bent on calling this system a patriarchy would realize that they wouldn’t have to worry about having to say that they aren’t accusing all men of being patriarchs. And of course there is the lip servicing catchphrase “Patriarchy Hurts Men Too” which often comes off as “(Okay Okay… Read more »
THis is why I like the term kyriarchy, a word coined by Elisabeth Schussler Fiorenza. It’s much more about class structures and intersections of oppressions. Less about male or female and more about how systems of power shift and people try to keep their place and not lose power, all while having to keep other people down. Some great quotes from that piece, “And before you start making a checklist of who is at the top and bottom – here’s my advice: don’t bother. The pyramid shifts with context. The point is not to rank. The point is to learn.”… Read more »
Yes I do think that word is more fitting than claiming to be against all oppressions but then naming the entire system (which is made up of several oppressions) for the numerical minority of one of the many groups of people that make up the population.
Very nice word indeed, but good luck popularizing the term.
I blame the Kyriarchy isn’t nearly as self congratulating and ball busting as I blame the Patriarchy.
Nah.
There is no war but class war.
Class war. Let’s keep talking about that!
Julie to the rescue. Very nice. She is the best.
At the root of everything is fear. You want to fix things, fix that.
“And of course there is the lip servicing catchphrase “Patriarchy Hurts Men Too” which often comes off as “(Okay Okay Okay) Patriarchy Hurts Men Too (there I acknowledged you, happy now?)”.”
Hmmmm – it does have that whiff of “Thought Terminating Cliché” about it.
…. and it’s easier and more accurate, less specific and gender neutral to actually say “Patriarchy Hurts Us All”.
It even saves a letter and reduces the risk of RSI! P^)
Some phrases need to come with a Health Warning!
Turn it around and you have, “Feminism hurts us all”.
How many feminists would be happy with that as a slogan?
David – I don’t think any would – but at the same time I don’t believe it is in fact a correct tessellation!
Danny, I’m not even sure there are “patriarchal” forces at work in our society. The biggest problem I have with the theory of “the patriarchy” and its equally flawed cousin “kyriarchy” is that it imputes the oppressor/oppressed framework without first proving that this framework is truly the best model for describing existing societal outcomes. For example, it has been demonstrated by many economists that, as early as the 1980s, the entire male-female wage gap could be explained by the decision to have children: women who remain childless usually out-earn their male counterparts. At first blush this seems to suggest that… Read more »
At first blush this seems to suggest that there is privilege running against women: they are penalized for having children. Yet other data confounds this outcome. Near universally, men are actually found to spend MORE time at work after the birth of a child (likely because they fear losing their jobs more now that they have a family to support). The same is not true of women (again, in the aggregate, individuals may vary). This can be verified by the BLS American Time Usage Survey. I’ll agree this is a good example of a very major distinction that needs to… Read more »
Danny, I completely agree that if a hiring manager is making a decision not to hire a woman because “she might have a kid” is totally unacceptable. Ideally it should also be unacceptable to the people running the business because it needlessly limits the pool of acceptable applicants so the the business may no longer have access to needed talent. But before we can get this far, we need to ask ourselves: is this even a problem? Recently, it has been reported that childless urban women in their twenties are significantly out-earning their male counterparts (estimates range from 8-10% more).… Read more »
And this is my point: the best model to describe the current workforce experience of people in their twenties is one where women are choosing to go to college, and men are not, and this is paying off for women. There is no oppressor, there is no oppressee. I can dig that. And you also give good reason to why this “End of Men” bit is exaggeration. Demoralized perhaps, but not coming to an end. The idea of “the patriarchy” simply cannot capture this reality. It is based on the presumption of a “dominance” type relationship that is likely inaccurate… Read more »
I agree on all fronts. If feminist would take time to differentiate the notion Patrarchy from what seems to be old fashion pig headed chauvinism there wouldn’t be such a backlash on TGMP.
I think the bigger question is why Sasha seems to believe that the GMP is all about preserving some specific type of masculinity. There are dozens of articles and sections on here that talk about things that are completely against the stereotypical image of what “masculinity” is. Sasha mentions articles about sports…well some men really do like sports and want to talk about sports. Me, I don’t care much about sports and I love good clothes and fashion. If Lisa wants I’ll be glad to contribute articles on clothes and fashion (I also feel like there are a lot of… Read more »
Sasha: “In retrospect it seems obvious that TGMP has been obsessed with masculinity from the start. They are trying to redefine it, and that’s a step in the right direction to be sure, but they are still obsessed with retaining it. ” How is giving men a supportive forum to talk about their problems and struggles where other areas would either deride or blame them for their problems retaining masculinity? Or are you of the mind that men who talk about their problems but don’t do so in accordance to your standards of addressing male priveledge and the like are… Read more »
There is NOTHING wrong with boys playing with Spongebob Squarepants and Castle LEGOs. I think that’s where this is op piece went sideways. If you’re being ironic, it didn’t work. If you weren’t, then you’re not listening to your own ideas that men and women should have no limits based on gender.
David — It’s an ad. Times are tough. Fortunately, Sasha has agreed to have our baby, just to prove once and for all that there is no validity at all to the alleged “difference” of a a “purportedly male” experience.
Very hard to figure out what that was about. I don’t understand why “girly” LEGO is bad, and GMP appears to have a bunch of stuff on the transgender tag. The web site it came from has a slightly different version of the article that frankly doesn’t make any more sense. I get the impression he is a male feminist of the Hugo type, meaning more interested in sucking up to female feminists and not much interested in actual equality or issues. So.. I am going to guess he is saying it is a shame that GMP isn’t rabidly pro-feminist… Read more »
I’ve managed to be both incoherent AND completely reveal the super-secret motivation for my feminism? I’m GOOD…
You are amazing…(reaches for cigarette)…..;)
I was so overcome …. I just fell asleep! P^)
Can’t wait for breakfast in bed!
Coffee, tea or me?
Black Coffee and The Guardian! P^)
Julie (and Mediahound)… win. There should be a rule on here that angry divisive comments must be followed by lighthearted sexual innuendo 😀
Peter – who said it was light hearted!
I’m still waiting for me coffee – It’s terrible – he hasn’t called – no text – …… P^)
Thanks babe! 😉 Love it when you comment at me……
Yeah that came across about 40% more insulting that I was aiming for. I was going for just needling you a bit and it came across as snide. Sorry. But yeah I have this concept that male feminists go one of two ways. Either they join up thinking feminism is about equality and so they never quite fit in right, or else they are guys who just love protecting women and they are in it to take a whack at other guys for being misogynists and bask in the presence of a lot of hot women (although they are NOT… Read more »
I’m glad you noted that it came out way more insulting, because I was sorta shocked at the intensity you had going there… But I do wonder too what’s wrong with girlie Legos. I am an expert in all things Lego and I think ti’s weird that Legos are so boy-interest-aimed. I think we put too much mojo on shit for kids. So a girl likes pink? Who cares? She likes pink, it’s a color. Let’s not shame her for wanting pink any more than we’d shame her for wanting blue. It’s all shame. If she wants Barbie-ish Legos, who… Read more »
I like to floss in pink
Pretending there are no differences between men and women is just denialism. We can honor and respect these differences without demanding them of each other.
On the girly lego front:
Lego is boy oriented? Does this come from an assumption that girls don’t like castles and star wars? I can’t help but feel that designating a specific line of “female” lego could contribute to unhelpful definitions of femininity (and masculinity).
As for colour, its not the pink that put me off, its the tone. All those pastel shades are really nauseating. My hypothetical future kids deserve better.