Major media has done it again. The New York Times Magazine today has a piece entitled: “Lean In, Dad” in which a young-sounding female writer, CATHERINE RAMPELL, bemoans the fact that her last two romantic relationships ended because the men in question wanted her to quit her job (if they got married) to stay home.
From those two questionable relationships, the “greatest” newspaper in the world jumps to the generalization that the problem for all of us isn’t really about women leaning in at all, as argued by Facebook COO sheryl sandberg. It’s about men doing their part at home. If only we had paternal leave and men would change more diapers the world would be a better and safer place for women.
I hope you don’t mind if I take a moment to puke.
So much has been written, and rightly so, about what women should do in the 21st century economy and society. Feminism, it seems, has had resurgence as women strive reach to finally reach the top of the power food chain and also struggle to wrestle work/family balance to the ground for all time.
The question I am often asked is: where does that leave men? From my limited data set, we are pretty much screwed. Not that we aren’t still the leaders of the free world and dominate in the positions of economic power. But in terms of the thought leadership on gender, which is what I have spent the last three years thinking and writing about, we are getting a raw deal.
Recently a blogger on our site was so brazen as to admit that this yoga pants thing for women was kind of problematic for him as a man because it made him horny when he really didn’t want to objectify the women in said pants. The response was swift and lethal: get over yourself. Women wear yoga pants for comfort and if your male sex-crazed brain can’t comprehend that go find some porn to look at already.
The guy was being honest, saying what most every guy I know thinks, and he was made to feel that he is a leper as a result.
A man gets up at the Academy Awards and has the guts to parody the way in which women’s breasts are used by Hollywood to sell their wares. You can’t watch a hit drama without seeing a pair in the first five minutes (House of Cards, the Americans anyone?). For goodness sakes, half the women had fake breasts falling out of their gowns. The point of the parody was that the whole system by which we objectify women’s breasts is crazy. But does anyone talk about that? No, in a nanosecond the New York Times, the New Yorker, and every other major media out is reporting (like it is some kind of obvious fact) that Seth MacFarlane is a Neanderthal.
Over the holidays, I was stupid enough to write a blog for the Room For Debate about women and make-up. In it I said that I thought my wife looks beautiful first thing in the morning. I was quick to point out that every women—every human being in fact since one example I used was a buddy who plays hockey and has ink from head to toe—is the only one who gets to decide whether to wear make-up, whether to have plastic surgery, and what they feel like to doing to themselves in the name of beauty, or not.
Feminist bloggers went nuts. Amanda Marcotte complained on the front page of Slate that I was a sexist pig because by saying that my wife looks beautiful first thing in the morning, I was implying that all women should look naturally beautiful. 1,500 comments followed violently agreeing with Amanda’s takedown. Others followed here and here and here.
Christina Huffington, Arianna’s daughter, read the Slate piece and piled on, never taking the time to read my original 300 words in the NYT. Ultimately Huffington Post decided it would be good theater to have Christina and me on their live program, which I reluctantly agreed to. I asked her what she could possibly be talking about since I made no comment about whether or not she should wear make-up, only that my wife is beautiful to me first thing in the morning. She apologized graciously. But her attack based on Amanda’s attack just goes to show how out of whack things have gotten.
The men I know are struggling. Struggling to figure out what’s important to them in the strange new world of a 21st century economy where women are better educated and increasingly more employable; in a world in which they increasingly want to be stay-at-home dads but are looked down upon for that desire; a world where any attempt to break out of the two-dimensional box of men as knuckle draggers who pursue Bud Light and the NFL above intimacy, emotion, and self-reflection gets blown to bits.
So what do I answer when asked the male equivalent of, “Lean In”?
Tell the Truth, I say. Lay yourself open to what it is like to be a man no matter what the reprisals. The only way we as men are going to get anywhere is by proving that we are not cavemen. We want, in the end, to be good fathers and husbands. And that gender is not a zero sum game. Our advancement as human beings is good for women. Just like women’s liberation is a fundamentally good thing for us as men.
And when you read stuff like Rampell’s stereotyped attack on dads at-large, go in the corner and empty your stomach, and then come back and continue to make breakfast, bring your wife coffee, and clean the house. That’s what I did this morning.
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image by author of my buddy Dave with his twins
Tom M, ive just read youve left this place (i was so busy this past week, i didnt have time to read gender blogs.)
quite a shock to hear. best wishes in what you decide to do next
Holy crap. Tom M, I hope you surface somwhere soon … would love to blow this pop stand. You’re one of the reasons I stayed here. God bless ya and best wishes.
I’m gonna try the twitter thing …
“It’s about men doing their part at home. If only we had paternal leave and men would change more diapers the world would be a better and safer place for women.” Not sure where you got this? I got the opinion that everyone helping out at home and everyone having a balanced work-life with a career that allows them to have children could be a great thing? “The question I am often asked is: where does that leave men? From my limited data set, we are pretty much screwed. Not that we aren’t still the leaders of the free world… Read more »
Hi Anonymous
As a marginalized man you will have even less power and influence. How to create social change is complicated.
Since I live overseas I see the US from outside only. I does not look good what I see. And the hate I see on this website is emotionally upsetting.
Have you though of emigration? Trust me,life is so nice many other places on this earth. But Americans seems to forget us that live and thrive in countries outside the US. Even this polarized debate about feminism you will be free from.
Iben, Thanks for giving me an idea for change. I’m sure I would like another environment. At present, however, I have a 9 yr. old daughter who lives with me most of the time and elderly parents who need my care so leaving the U.S., or even my locale, is not an option for several more years. Since I have very little family closely related to me except my parents and their generation who are in their 70s and above, I would love to meet someone and be able to take another stab at more traditional family life in a… Read more »
What feminism has done for me: As a man, I hate our society, our country, our 21st century world and everything about it. My rules to live by: take care of your family and friends, but otherwise, don’t lift a finger for anything else. Don’t volunteer to serve in the military and discourage any of your family and friends from that either. Let all-feminist brigades go over to Afghanistan instead of us. Second, quit being involved in your community, church or local society. Don’t give a dime to anyone unless you must to keep from going to jail. Don’t work… Read more »
Oh, come now, it happens to the best of us – no matter how respectful, enlightened, and fair-minded you might be, inevitably we will all be called a sexist at some point, men and women alike. I’m a woman, and a feminist, and I strive to empower other women and instill confidence in them through martial arts and self-defense, and I consider myself a role model and mentor to the young female students who work in our office – they often send me lovely cards and notes thanking me for inspiring them to be strong, confident women who make their… Read more »
And you still refer to yourself as a feminist? These women were obviously feminist women who put you down yet you stay with that label “feminist.” It’s obvious that no matter how much people want to believe that feminism today is a different breed, the reality is that the original play book is still in use. In 2013 women put other women down for something as simple as a novel. That, in and of itself, says to me that feminism as it “was” known is still here and not going away. When are women going to break away from the… Read more »
Goodness, this is a silly reply to a good post. It seems that men such as you are so bent on the idea that feminists *must* fit one bill. Like any movement, there are different kinds of extremists, different levels of involvement, and unfortunately, there are also ignorant “members.” You can’t convince women like Rachel – or me – that we can’t and shouldn’t be feminist. Just as you argue against unfair stereotypes that alleged feminists give innocent men, do not be a perpetrator of unfair stereotypes on women and/or feminists. A reply like this only brings to mind something… Read more »
We do need a new word for ‘feminist’, as many women have become just as judgmental and repressive as men.
If you are always looking to be offended, you will not be disappointed.
I got called a sexist and an MRA as an insult simply for quoting actual statistics on the high level of rape perpetration by females. I posted the full data, stats, but still I was a sexist for it?? If it’s sexist to point out that more than one gender causes a huge amount of abuse then the term sexist has lost it’s meaning. These days disagreeing with someone will get you called a sexist.
I like some of what feminism has brought but dislike the extremists, the internet fights, and the misandrist implementations of law, bigoted awareness raising, disproportionate anti-violence support. Feminism has it’s problem but it’s not inherently bad, it’s the individuals in the movement that make it good or bad.
So let me see she was willing to have children with the two boyfriends / fiancee’s, but she didn’t know that neither of them were the (SAHD) type or not the (SAHD)type , who’s to blame in this case unless they lied to her which I doubt that they are willing to be SAHD, what does it take for these ideological demagogues to take responsibility for their own choices & actions specially when they are claimants of independence, self reliance , …etc, it seems hypocrisy & arrogance are consistent traits in feminism.
I think that was the purpose of the discussion, to determine whether her boyfriends would be willing to do what she was definitely not willing to do – raise their children for the five or six years before they are old enough to be in school full-time. Since they weren’t willing do to this, and neither was she, the relationships ended. This happens sometimes, no reason for Rampell to be resentful about it. I mean, the guys didn’t appear to resent her for her unwillingness to do it, so it’s only fair she cut them the same slack. The bottom… Read more »
Rachel, are you trying to convince me or yourself, I have read both of your comments & you definitely come across as an egalitarian, free mind justice centered, though might be slightly influenced by the wide spread belief in women always victims & men always the reason of it narrative! !, heck there’s a huge number of males who at least partially believe that even when the average male on the low end is struggling with survival, loss,…etc , let alone self improvement, since emotional, self reflective attitudes in males are looked upon as weaknesses , it’s called male privilege… Read more »
I was merely pointing out that no one should be offended by this label of “sexist” as it’s flung about so callously these days. But I won’t deny being a feminist just because other feminists think I’m a chauvinist. Perhaps it is they who are incorrect. Things that I am supposed to find offensive according to feminists don’t bother me (e.g. historical fiction and fantasy novels), whereas things I care about, specifically, self-defense and situational awareness, are meaningless to them. For example, if I walk into a deli and guy behind the counter says, “Hi darling, what can I get… Read more »
that last line should be “From each according to his ability..” but I mixed up John Stuart Mill and the Old Testament, sorry.
Sorry, I posted the wrong comment below – I meant to post it a bit further down under another comment. I was just suggesting that it’s not at all uncommon for relationships to fail because the couple has differing views on raising a family and it’s not that big of a deal – it happens, it can be sad, but it’s just part of the whole process of finding a compatible mate. Why should Rampell get to freely admit that she hates the idea of giving up her job to raise her kids, and yet lambast her two boyfriends because… Read more »
i didn’t see anything in the article that sounded like she was lambasting her boyfriends for wanting stay at hone wives. She was just saying that’s not part if her life plan so she had to end those relationships. She didn’t sound angry about it, just frustrated perhaps.
I followed the comments in the NY Times over to this site. I was a bit dismayed to read that article, which seems to be just another version of making other women feel ashamed for how they choose to raise their children. Rampell begins her article: “I happen to be an educated young woman who loves her job, sometimes gushingly, occasionally annoyingly,” but doesn’t acknowledge that other educated women might feel that emotion for their children. Why stigmatize women for being “stay at home” parents, as if breastfeeding a new baby at home is somehow destroying the economy? I am… Read more »
Rachel, Thank you for your sentiments. They very much mirror what my wife had to deal with in the 70’s. The difference though was that back then , even though she could have easily out-incomed me, her choice was to stay at home. I made a good income but there is no doubt that having a second equal if not greater income, would have been nice. For my wife and I, it was all about the kids and what we felt was best for them. I’m sure as hell glad we did. All the “things” we accumulated are long gone… Read more »
I was born in 1971 so I well remember this era. We were poor as dirt and yet my mom, who married at 19 (not at all unusual for her generation) stayed home with us until I was in second grade and my brother was in fourth grade, when she went back to college to get her degree. That was 1978, and I remember how the other moms thought she was abandoning us even though my stepfather was a stay-at-home dad, since that was their arrangement until she finished school (he was a piano tuner and sometimes brought us to… Read more »
‘…Was it worth being so poor to have a full-time parent at home?…’
Yes, it was worth it.
Love,
Yr Mom
I didn’t get anything from the NYT article that was shaming toward stay at home parents. She seems to be responding to the controversial “Lean In” idea (from the recent book by the Facebook COO) which argues that women can succeed at work by being more committed (leaning in) at work. the NYT writer points out that would be easier if men took more paternity leave etc. not everyone is cut out to be a stay at home parent.
I’ve been wondering about this lot and reading the comments – and it;s clear who is flying under which banner. For me it get very clear as I read the Times Article when i read this: I don’t pretend to know how common this situation is, and how many other young women have found themselves in it. But it clarified not only the choices that future mothers must make about their careers, but also how early in their careers they must begin to think about them. And while fairness and feminism may urge us to find better ways for women… Read more »
Something has been knowing at me for some time now and I’m gonna put it out there to discuss. The stay at home dad is GREAT. You’ll never find me questioning their abilities in that I feel, as others do, that they are just as capable as women. That being said ….. I feel that we’re forgetting the fact that there are many men who aren’t interested in being a SAHD. That they have talents and skills outside the home and have a right to use them as women do. Seems to be a big focus on opening the proverbial… Read more »
I agree that suicide rates and health care should focus the attention far more than ‘How sexist is it to wear plaid?’ and various ’empowerment’ days. The simplicity of superficiality distracts from the hard work required by examining more concrete issues. In regard to the last three paragraphs specifically: Rightly (or even wrongly) I think most everyone can relate to at least ONE moment when they have felt put upon by someone who claims to speak as the true apostle of all feminism; valiantly protesting the innumerable evils that Men have done. For better or for worse, with any ideology inevitably… Read more »
Sorry for the multiple postings. Sometimes I have my clearest thought after pressing “Post Comment.” What I’ve noticed is that many of the SAHD’s portrayed on the GMP are shown as heroic figures or even a “new kind of masculine role model.” For me that’s sort of a good news/bad news situation. The good news is that the definition of male role model seems to be expanding to encompass a variety of roles. A man can be secure in his masculinity (if that’s important to him) and be in a childcare and/or homemaking role. On the other hand, the bad… Read more »
There’s a lot of talk about how in terms of gender roles men and women are not on a level playing field. Usually this metaphor shows up when people talk about women being more disadvantaged than men, so their choices are not as easy. But, there are also ways that men face a situation tilted against them. The idea that more men should “stay home” and take more responsibility for childcare flies in the face of: 1. The fact that there are millions of fathers who do, in fact, do this. With virtually no well-known role models, not much support,… Read more »
Regarding “What’s a Man to Do?” along with the comments from Jimbo and Tom Brechlin, THANK YOU! I signed up for this blog in order to learn more about the issues men face, how they think, what they want. Having found myself dating again at an age where most people are enjoying their grandchildren I came to realize that no one changes after high school, maybe even junior high! I realized also that I much preferred understanding what was going on from a man’s perspective than a woman’s, even though I am female. The book, and movie, “He’s Just Not… Read more »
Tom I enjoyed the piece and think it is needed, but I have to wonder if you’ve been reading your own website the past couple of months. I nearly quit coming here as i felt the opening months of 2013 have featured a large number of men blaming/shaming articles mostly authored by women. I come here for articles about men that help me see that – I’m not the only man stressed at work, I’m not the only man who struggled mightily at dating (despite doing everything “right”) I’m not the only man who feels like my wife can sometimes… Read more »
Well stated Jombo.
Having grown up in a time where birth control and abortion wasn’t available and blatant sexism was rampant, I cannot understand why so many women have thrown the baby out with the bath water. (Oops, this rant does not have anything to do with babies.) I like men, I don’t blame them for all the problems in the world, and I think most of them are doing the best they can under enormous pressure and expectations. I think that I like men because I like being a woman. It is so very easy to be a woman, anything we do… Read more »
So you like being a woman because its a privilegde
,but you feel bad for men for the pressures they have to deal with that you don’t have to as a woman
and you dislike other women for not having to deal with the same pressures as men being as they are too, women?
Huhhhh. I see
I’m not the original commenter, but that’s not how I interpreted it, rather that society sees a man as a failure if he chooses to spend his whole life as a low-level secretary or gas station attendant or retail clerk or stay-at-home parent, whereas the social judgement of women who do those exact same things is much more forgiving. Social expectations for women are still quite low. Being a single mom is applauded, as it should be, but being a single dad is not – it’s often frowned upon. The anger and resentment towards men that so many feminists express… Read more »
I find women acting ‘crazy’ to be the height of narcissism. I do not understand what is wrong with most women or why they are such man-haters, especially since so many of them are young and grew up with rights that Baby Boomer women could only dream about. I much prefer the company of men, as most women are difficult, self-absorbed, and self-centered, with an inflated sense of entitlement that astounds me. Take the ‘body acceptance’ movement, which was started by overweight women. (Men are part of the movement too, but it is mostly for women.) What this movement means… Read more »
🙂
Have you ever had kids? Some women put on quite a bit of weight during and after pregnancy, would you feel ok if your partner didn’t want to have sex with you because you put on too much weight? The body movement is less about trying to make it ok to be unhealthy, but more about just having self-esteem and not hating yourself simply because you’re fat. It’s not good to be overweight AND have a low self-esteem n feel like shit, especially for comfort eaters whom those negative feelings simply make them crave more bad food. There are those… Read more »
And to answer your question, I would expect not expect my partner to want to have sex with me if I put on a lot of weight. And he should expect the same from me.
I have the same standards for men and women.
Respect your body and your mind will follow.
Hi Archy
You are gooooooooood:
“Imagine a world though where people spent 1/10th the time working on their personality as they do on their physical body, where people spent less time pumping iron to get fullysick muscles and less time painting their face in makeup and more time working on being decent, caring, intelligent human beings. Your looks will fade, do you have any other traits worthy of keeping around for a partner?”
Why does everything have to be either/or? As far as I understand from the comments above, if I work out, or wear makeup even occassionally, simply because I enjoy doing those things (exercise is practically my only form of recreation and I get depressed without it), or because I want feel pretty for my own sake, that means I cannot also be a decent person but instead am a painted-face tart like some 19th-century streetwalker? Or that I lack personality, intelligence, or decency, simply because I enjoy exercise? And of course, once I am old and my looks have faded,… Read more »
Because we cannot help what we are sexually attracted to and without that attraction the relationship might work, but it is a hard slog. An example is a man I know who likes tall leggy blonds, Scandinavian types, of which I am most assuredly not, so there would be no point pursuing a relationship with him, even if I were interested. On the other hand, I like slim men, not too tall (I am short) and not too muscular, Slavic types. That is just the look I like in a man. I have met men I liked very much, but… Read more »
Robin You both are right. I agree with both of you. But we live in society that does not put much emphasis on working on our character. We have self help books about person growth but everybody that really had do the job in real life know that is takes 24/7 for year after year after year. It is hard work. But I agree you about grooming, make up and all. As far as I am concerned make up is Gods gift to women, at lest to women like me. And if men need it I am not 100% against… Read more »
Yes, it is regrettable that things like behaving honourably, keeping one’s word, being respectful to yourself and others, not telling lies, and just generally being a decent person aren’t emphasised as much as looking hot or attracting any sort of attention – but that’s probably been the case since the first newspapers were printed. At a certain point we all have to take responsibility for our own conduct, no matter how lousy society may be, that’s no excuse. Keep in mind that some of the most dreadful societies in the history of the world have produced truly exceptional men and… Read more »
Tom, I’m also confused about why the NYT article made you “puke.” I thought you were in favor of more parental leave for men?
I also know that GMP champions the personal narrative of writers, which is what Rampell was doing…with studies to back up her own observations. Should she not have told her story?
Tom, If I can’t tell my wife she looks beautiful in the morning (which she does, and which I often tell her), then what do I lead with, “Honey, this Astros lost again last night. I don’t think I can go to work.”
Thanks for injecting a dose of much needed sanity and common sense into the world.
The thing that most people (addressed to you Julia) is that for 1000s of year women never had to pay the social price for what they received, they never had to go to war and fight for their country, were not held liable both legally and socially for the acts of their husbands (men were). So yes, perhaps men had some privileges, but they damn well earned them The person I miss most who used to post here was GirlWritesWhat, look her up on youtube. Very articulate and to the point. I have no idea why she stopped posting and… Read more »
There has recently developed an interesting double standard in terms of gender parity, and I for one have often wished there was an All-Male on GMP, one where in women would not feel compelled to point out men’s short comings with such fervor. Misinterpretations of statements like “my wife is beautiful first thing in the morning when she wakes up” is, if not deliberate, certainly motivated by a readiness, if not an outright desire, to be offended. And this is not an isolated instance on GMP: When men speak in their language to other men on GMP, women have repeatedly… Read more »
Every male space gets invaded sooner or later. It’s even happening over at A Voice for Men, and its causing their message to change, and not in a good way.
There is one male-only space. And it’s severely guarded. Not sure if registrations are currently open, and not sure if you can look past the deep resentment you will find there, especially among the divorcees, but give it a go.. mgtowforums.com
Hi obmon Thank you for answering. It sounds to me you was once married to woman that tried to dominate you. And I can understand why you disliked that intensely. This Good Man Project wants a dialog that includes the whole world. They should bring in more writers from other countries and cultures. I am not so sure what is the best way. I live in what is often called “a feminist state”. Our men have paid leave from work when get become fathers. It is 10 or 12 weeks I think. Maybe I am wrong,but I can not see… Read more »
Never married. Still single. The woman you would have to refer to, would be my mother. But she isn’t the reason for my particular demands towards marriage. Other people’s experiences with the entitlement of modern women. Actions without responsibilities. I see it every single day. Here’s another good example.. I’m sitting in a friends house at the moment. His wife just came home. In front of me, she yells at him for smoking in the house. And just so I don’t get misinterpreted; it isn’t the nagging about smoking, but the nagging in front of me, a guest, that shows… Read more »
… and where-ever you are, especially if you are in a “feminist state”. If you don’t see it, then you aren’t looking. You are asking the right questions to the right men.
Please read Warren Farrell’s book, The Myth of Male Power. It’s a very good start.
It seems to me from the comments in this article that the basic premise of any gender issue is gender itself. Women deny gender biological roots, and blame it all on the patriarchy. If we instead realized how integrated “Chemistry” is to our existence, we might be willing to let go many of these issues. To deny three million years of human evolution just so you can wear yoga pants with impunity is beyond just childish and highly solipsistic. Men want women to be nurturers and mothers, to stay at home more than work 60-80 a week away from home,… Read more »
“Men want women to be nurturers and mothers, to stay at home more than work 60-80 a week away from home, and dare I say, be a little submissive to their husbands (it turns us on and makes us feel all sorts of loved).”
Honesty is refreshing. Hoo boy.
Not what I want, though I think it should be a viable option for those women that do want it. I’d settle for: 1. Not being demonised for being male (or white or whatever). 2. Not being held accountable for the actions of generations of men who weren’t me. 3. Being able to hold feminist thought to proper public account and scrutiny without being called misogynist, sexist etc etc merely for the act of questioning. 4. An end to the de-facto censorship of ‘call out’ culture and a policy of ‘making more things’ rather than trying to destroy what other… Read more »
Just out of curiosity.. how many women do you know are with Stay At Home Dads (and actually respect them..)? This was one of Warren Farrell’s biggest points.. there are plenty of men who would actually consider being SAHD’s.. there are very, very few falling in love with them though.. Your reply is another point.. you think what most men want w warrants a “Hoo boy”, but heaven forbid women get challenged for what they want.. I’ve been reading all your posts.. you are hypocritical. You want what you want, and you want men to fall in line. You can’t… Read more »
Any woman who couldn’t ” fall in love ” with a stay at home dad has something wrong with her. I don’t buy this line at all. My husband helped me do much while I was recovering from my first pregnancy ( 26 hours in labor to I needed some serious shut eye) that I fell in love with him all over again.
Hi obmon
Can you explain to us what you mean when you ask women to me more submissive?
Can you give examples from everyday life?
Frankly ,I have no idea what you are talking about. Tell me more…….
Femininity as it used to be. A deference of love to the husband. It doesn’t mean that the woman is weak in any way.. hell, if we can both afford nannies and are good at balancing time.. it high-powered woman can be sexy. But the absolute last thing I need is to feel like I married another man. No offense to gay people, but I married a woman. I want a woman. I don’t want to feel like everything I say, do, wish for, plan for, look forward to, think about is a competition. A submissive role does not mean… Read more »
Correction for the top line.. it should have read: *a deference of love and authority to the husband*
Disclaimer: obmon’s views do not reflect the views beliefs or positions of any other GMP author, commenter, or person.
Not surprising. I know what part of the internet I’m in..
From where I am sitting I hope you are in a place where I can read your views, disagree with them but absorb their message. And hopefully you can do the same.
I personally admire you for saying things that most here won’t agree with (you dont read like a troll or a poe).
“Disclaimer: obmon’s views do not reflect the views beliefs or positions of any other GMP author, commenter, or person.”
So say we all.
Thank God for that
http://www.thinkinghousewife.com/wp/2010/04/how-to-be-a-submissive-wife/
Good example right there.
The real question is why is this debate always like a match. A little heat and poof, off we go. I try to think like what I am, an individual and not representative of an entire gender. How about we just start working on doing the right thing for each and every one of us humans. If you can’t find a way to check the anger at the door than maybe you can step aside and let cooler heads lead when it’s called for.
Not that we aren’t still the leaders of the free world and dominate in the positions of economic power.
We are? Really now? Men as a group are the leader of the free world and dominate positions of economic power? I’m really not being a smart ass about this but I’m questioning how exactly the few men at the top of the ladder represent us all to the point that it can be said that be sharing gender with them we are the ones with power.
“Men have all the power!” Meanwhile most men don’t have power, intersectionality plays a big part here from what I understand (wealth/class), I’m at the point where I don’t think it’s really fair to say men have the power, I think more emphasis needs to be made on WHICH men because it damn sure isn’t 99% of them. I reckon a seperate category for the elite needs to be made, elite male, elite female, average female, average male, etc.
Tom, you rock! Men are struggling with what’s important to them. Why? Because what used to be important to them has been pulled out from under them. Now we’re having to have to reinvent ourselves to accommodate the changes. In doing so, we’re having to have to be under the microscope and our thoughts, feelings and opinions constantly scrutinized.
Amen Tom
What has been pulled out from under you? Change *is* hard. You know what’s harder? Having to wait 1000’s of years to have equality. I don’t see it as a zero sum game, though. Do you? I think we can share, I really do. The good stuff and the bad–we can share.
What has been pulled out from under you?
The notions of what is important to us as men. As in the things that we are supposed to value (and/or not value) because we are men.
You know what’s harder? Having to wait 1000′s of years to have equality.
Why bring this up its not like Tom is saying anything about what women have been going through or about who has the harder lot to bear.
I don’t know about you, but I haven’t been alive for 1000’s of years and I haven’t been privy to the olde time male privileges of yore. I suspect that you havent been oppressed for 1000’s of years either, and currently enjoy a range of privileges that most men alive today are completely unaware of. I can tell you what I’ve experienced in my 26 years however. How masculinity is “toxic.” How women are supposed to be smarter, more spiritually and emotionally rounded, generally better than men. How I, as a man, am guilty for the “sins of the father”… Read more »
The majority of men also had to wait a very long time for equality and had to die in their droves in war before some of it was extended universally.
Lori, with all due respect, in the 21 century I think we North American settlers should probably steer clear from any references to ourselves as experiencing anything that sounds like ‘1000 years of oppression’
“The world owes you nothing. It was here first.” –Mark Twain
What was pulled out from under us? Simply put, the “family” as we once knew it to be. Men went to war, built roads, railroads, etc. making the US a manufacturing leader of the world. Meanwhile, we had a constant in our crazy lives where we had wonderful wives and mothers taking care of the home and family. Men were the providers and protectors for the family. All of a sudden, men became the bad guys, oppressors, and their roles as they knew it, were gradually eliminated. “Change is hard” … you’re right but when change is made, it generally… Read more »
What do you mean, “what has been done?” One of the things I’ve been thinking a lot about lately is how I, as a woman and human being, can do more for society than I’m doing. I’ve concluded I need to spend less time online, and more time doing things IRL.The women’s movement did not bring equality for women, but it got us closer, and there was no internet then. You had to go to rallies, meet with other people, fundraise, get paper petitions signed, etc. I don’t see the men’s movement men doing that, but I do see a… Read more »
Lori, can you provide citations to all the comments you’ve left for Jill Filipovic, Amanda Marcotte, and Melissa McEwan to stop complaining online so much? I’ve seen comments like yours before, where women and/or feminists make disparaging remarks about men’s online activism and feign a neutral stance. (“Online activism isn’t real! We should all go out and do real stuff instead!”) But I’ve only seen them make these comments in threads where men’s issues are the focus; I don’t see those same individuals making disparaging remarks about women’s much more extensive involvement in the online gendersphere. FTR, I completely disagree… Read more »
Both are real. I do both. I want to start doing more stuff IRL on top of online stuff. I do make similar comments in feminist spaces, and am actively working on many projects right now beyond online activism with many other women and men who feel as I do. I believe in online activism–I’ve done quite a lot–but when people ask “why hasn’t xyz been done?” I have to ask back, “Are you working on it?” and I personally believe that this work must be both online AND off, otherwise it is a lot of complaining, and a lot… Read more »
“I’ve seen comments like yours before, where women and/or feminists make disparaging remarks about men’s online activism and feign a neutral stance. (“Online activism isn’t real! We should all go out and do real stuff instead!”) But I’ve only seen them make these comments in threads where men’s issues are the focus; I don’t see those same individuals making disparaging remarks about women’s much more extensive involvement in the online gendersphere.” It can be a form of dismissal (don’t think Lori is using it that way though). I see them quite often a few minutes after someone claims feminism is… Read more »
I agree, the internet is too often an echo chamber of negativity and self-righteous indignation. I periodically quit visiting blogs and then I cone back against my better judgment. Has one single social problem ever been solved by arguing about it on line?
Not by that exclusively. Online writing and commenting can help, but actual work out in the real world is needed, and so if someone only talks the talk and doesn’t also walk the walk, I don’t have patience for it.
From what I see of MRM stuff, A lot is in Canada and Australia. There are also a heap of groups that advocate for men’s issues but don’t say MRM, such as the various fathers groups, some feminist groups, etc.
“You had to go to rallies, meet with other people, fundraise, get paper petitions signed, etc. I don’t see the men’s movement men doing that, but I do see a lot of men complaining online.” You didn’t see the offline work being done in the University of Toronto where a few extremist-feminists violently protested against them – ht tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0 and further fighting ht tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80 . People tried to setup the Mens center at Canada’s Simon Fraser University and again a group tried to stop it. It doesn’t exactly help the movement to have people stifle it, but I think the… Read more »
You had to go to rallies, meet with other people, fundraise, get paper petitions signed, etc. I don’t see the men’s movement men doing that, but I do see a lot of men complaining online. I keep hearing this sentiment expressed and with it all the TROPES and implications that men are lazy and women somehow orally superior. I happen to have one hell of a lot of OLD school feminist Friends, many who were in the 1960’s/70’s and 80’s doing one hell of a lot – and each one tells me about the men they had supporting them –… Read more »
You do realize that it’s only been the past 150 years that any sizable (not even majority, just sizable) number of men have had any sort of societal “agency” that women didn’t have right (outside of family structures)? I doubt any male peasants, serfs, sharecroppers, homesteaders, early industrial factory workers, 19th Century soldiers, victims of Jim Crow, or _slaves_ would be shedding tears for the equality a woman living in the United States in 2013 claims to not have. How again were these men holding women down for thousands of years?
Nice oppression olympics. Do show me in history where 10’s to 100’s of millions of women were killed in battles they were FORCED to fight in. See I can play this game too. I think you’ll find that in history, MOST men and Most women had extraordinary levels of oppression against them in various ways. The fortunate few at the very top, which had both male n female elites had very disproportionate levels of power over the rest of humanity. History is full of cold, evil examples of oppression and whilst men did have it better in many cases there… Read more »
I think that these issues between men and women will not be resolved anytime soon. Both sexes send each other mixed messages. Is it as bad as the 1970s when most of what I learned about how to treat women was turned on its head? I’m not sure. Is it going to get better, where men won’t have to feel like they are walking on eggshells? Not in my lifetime…but maybe in two or three generations.
The hypocrisy in some of the articles posted is ridiculous. Amelia McDonell-Parry over at The Frisky didn’t just argue that men who say they prefer women without make up are sometimes mistaken, but actually implies in her last paragraph that many of them are simply pretending. But then she’ll turn right back around and blast one of the writers on this site for pondering whether the women who say they wear yoga pants purely because they are comfortable are being completely honest. Its part of a larger narrative I often see where the actions of men are put under a… Read more »
Jack I really try not to let it get to me. But when I see it show up in the NYT, like it did today, I just get too upset not to say something.
And it’s great to see you come out swinging buddy. Just when I thought this site had completely gone under you gave it a shred of credibility with this post. Kudos.
Thank you, Tom. Please don’t be discouraged by the Rebecca Cohens of the world. They will always try to patronize and refuse to try and understand our culture from a male perspective. What they really want is for you to just shut up and accept where we are as a gender. Please, please, ignore them.
Thanks Adam.
Also, if I might make a suggestion, please do not allow Amanda Marcotte and Hugo Schwyzer to use this site as a podium from which to spew hate anymore. I think they have made their stance quite clear on the issues of men, and frankly, they both seem pretty quick to stab you in the back which I find shocking because I recall them being friends of yours.