Joanna Schroeder tries to figure out what makes describing male goodness so challenging, and discovers it’s because there’s just so much of it.
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It’s not that I haven’t tried to write about my favorite aspects of manhood. I knew instantly that I had something to say, as I absolutely love men, masculinity, and things that are “manly”. My list of favorite man-traits contains most of the same things that Neely Steinberg’s does: your bodies, your strength, your fatherhood, your directness.
I even wrote an email to Lisa Hickey explaining what I wanted to write: “short, fast-paced vignettes about the good men who have been so crucial in my life”. She thought that sounded great.
When I went to write the piece, however, I kept finding myself stuck. I could write about my father and stepfather; the way they parented me into becoming a strong-minded, independent woman. I could write about how my brother taught me to be the type of feminist I am, how he never let me excuse my own bad behavior by calling myself a bitch.
I could write about Professor Eric Schocket. When I was 19, the only way I knew how to relate to men I admired was to flirt (didn’t hurt that he was a cute young guy), and Dr. Schocket never returned my flirtations. In doing that, he taught me that I was a brain before I was a beauty, and he left room for me to develop academically without the flutters of a crush.
I could write about my husband, who loves me despite me being a giant ball of fire. I am easy to fall in love with, but I am hard to stay in love with. Somehow he’s done it for eight years. That takes strength.
What about my best guy friends? These men have guided me through life with honesty, strength, and compassion. They never let me sell myself short. They never judged. Along with my new best-GMP-guys Marcus Williams and Justin Cascio, they often hold me to a higher standard than I hold myself.
But when I went to write the piece with that framework, nothing came out right. No matter what I wrote, it was all about me and what they gave me. These dynamic men sound like tools to my happiness, stepping stones to my fulfillment. And that’s not what I am trying to say.
I want to say that I admire them for so much more: Eli for being an amazing teacher and mentor, for being an independent thinker who cannot be bullied into anything. I respect Bob for being brave enough to come out as a gay man in our conservative hometown, and also for getting and staying sober.
In high school, I admired Braden for being cultured and unique in a place where that wasn’t exactly encouraged. I am in awe of Tim for training for and racing crazy long-distance open-water races, all while proudly announcing his love of “BH Nine-r” and Byzantine Art. Matt blows my mind by being an outstanding father to his daughter and an amazing influence on his students of all ages… I could go on and on about all of them.
It’s just that when we tell a story, when we start a narrative, it almost always originates with “me”. That’s the lens through which we human beings view the world. I don’t know how to frame masculinity without including my femininity. And I don’t want anything to diminish the masculinity I’m talking about.
And so I tried to tell the story of just one exceptional man, my former boss Robert Bryson—a hulking giant of a dude who wore huge clunky silver jewelry like a pirate, who loved James Bond and his sexy wife and his huge dog and his big-ass truck. Robert was a man, fully and unapologetically.
For us young women who worked for him, he was Big Daddy; he changed our flat tires, he told us what was wrong with our “weak-ass” boyfriends (he was usually right), and he hired a self-defense guy to teach us how to handle armed robberies and kidnappings. He called me “Stems” because, and I quote, “she has some damn sexy legs.”
If you’d described Robert to the “me” I was before I knew him—a feisty feminist who wouldn’t let anyone look at her cross-eyed—I would’ve said he sounded terrible! Sexist pig! But he was, in fact, wonderful. He believed in our strength and deeply respected femininity. We were grateful for that hulking exemplar of masculinity… even when he was mad at us for breaking the computer system (again) and yelling at us from the office, “Damn women!”
Once, when I was having a problem with a stalker member of the paparazzo who threatened to ass-rape me (yes, true story), Robert marched down Robertson Boulevard in Los Angeles, me cowering behind him, and found the guy. Robert grabbed him and put him against a wall, saying, “If you ever go near her again, I will put a bullet in your head and dump you in the dumpster behind my store. And I know no one’s gonna be looking for you.”
This story has a crazy ending, and I wrote it all in the original piece, but when I re-read it, I realized even that story is deeply faulted in explaining what is good about masculinity. The story of Robert and the stalker paparazzo was an important part of my personal history—and Robert certainly was “masculine”—but that story also makes men sound like sex-crazed brutes. Either you are the brute who abuses women, or you’re the brute who defends them. And of course that just isn’t true.
What I’ve found is that masculinity, what’s good about it, cannot be defined in words or in stories. It can’t be explained with examples or theory. It can’t be validated with evidence or anecdotes. Masculinity, manhood, and men come in such a plethora of different forms of goodness that it is actually impossible for me to write a piece about what is good about masculinity.
Oh, wait, I guess I just did.
RIP Big Daddy. The world is much too tame without you.
—Photo courtesy of the Bryson family
Joanna. Good for you. I like to hear that. Not sure everybody is up to speed on it, though. If “Eat, Pray, Love” doesn’t reduce a guy to tears, there’s something wrong with him, is the impression I get from a number of comments here and elsewhere. Now, I should say that the movie title is a stand-in for any number of required weepers. Looking around on youtube, I found a bunch of hits for “Il Silenzio”. One shows a girl named Melissa Venema playing the trumpet with the Andre Rieu orchestra. Terrific. Turns out the performance was in Maastricht.… Read more »
I have the feeling that the “crying” we’re supposed to be doing so everybody will know we’re sensitive and caring is limited. For example: Yesterday, I e-mailed the Patriot Guard Riders and thanked them for showing up at the funeral of a relation. Told them that, back in the day when I was doing Survivor Assistance Officer for a family, it would have been great if they’d been around. It was 1971, so nobody had thought of it. The response was, “It is an honor to be invited.” That misted me up pretty good. I got hold of the unit… Read more »
Yeah, listen, I would never want some guy to do something that isn’t genuine. Some women don’t cry, I used to NEVER cry, I mean like ten years of not crying… Now I’ll cry over truly sad movies (umm, anyone seen Atonement?! WTF?!), actual sad situations, and some great happy touching moments. The famous picture that got passed around with the dog by his master’s casket who was a servicemember, or the wife sleeping in the room with her late husband’s casket, and the military guard beside the casket… That will do it for me, too. I hope you guys… Read more »
I think there’s something important, even sacred about “masculine” and “feminine.” Something essential and vital. It’s just the way those terms have been historically defined that are way, way too limited. Ultimately, maybe they can’t be defined. It’s just that what is sacred about these terms is far deeper than character traits or behaviors. For me the “masculine” includes vulnerability, tears, nurturing… traits Robert Bly once called “the male mother.” All these contribute to making the masculine sacred. Likewise the “feminine” includes toughness, directness, power – all qualities that contribute to making the feminine sacred. But if you theoretically dissolve… Read more »
I disagree with much of what you write about a gender binary being sacred, as well as with why trans people seek hormones, surgery, and other body modification. In my experience and in the stories that my trans friends tell, it is not that we are seeking a sacred essence of a gender. That doesn’t sound like anything I’ve ever done, or like anything anyone I know has ever done. If you have questions about what really motivates trans people, I suggest that you seek out our stories and read them. It’s common enough for artists to use trans people… Read more »
YES!!
It is not! This manly man was his own type of “good” man! Not perfect, but good. Great, even.
I laugh, though, thinking about how his spirit or whatever (not sure I even believe in that) in Heaven or wherever is thinking about this conversation. I can see him rolling his eyes at me and crossing his arms. “Jay-sus Ca-rist, Stems, you still blabberin’ on about this?” Hahaha.
“If you’d described Robert to the “me” I was before I knew him—a feisty feminist who wouldn’t let anyone look at her cross-eyed—I would’ve said he sounded terrible! Sexist pig! But he was, in fact, wonderful. He believed in our strength and deeply respected femininity. We were grateful for that hulking exemplar of masculinity…” This was the part that I found most important, because it needs to be said but is too rarely said here on GMP. Here is an example of someone who could have been terribly misjudged if you had not gotten to know him. Here is a… Read more »
Seems a lot of us try to talk and explain what we mean as we go along as to avoid misunderstandings, glad I am not the only one :P. Great article btw! There’s nothing wrong in feeling good about being protected, even by a male, big daddy sounds like a great guy and wants everyone to be safe. A white knight I would say is someone who puts too much emphasis on protecting others and does so more for a selfish need to feel good about themselves instead of just genuinely wanting everyone to be safe. As a man, it… Read more »
As a man, it does feel good to feel you can protect others, especially damsels in distress especially when you grow up seeing men as the savior and you want to be that man. I personally believe a true hero wants everyone to be safe, including themselves where they only sacrifice themselves for a greater good. Indeed. It feels good because we believe that protecting others (especially the damsels in distress) is an essential part of being a man. And this goes beyond “because its the nice/right thing to do” but actually goes into “if you don’t do this then… Read more »
Ooops. Disregard that middle paragraph. Copy/Past failure.
THIS!!!!!: “There are some masculine traits I love in men but many of them aren’t limited to men, so I’m still unsure of what I think of masculinity and femininity as I see both genders with each. There are great aspects of both genders but I wouldn’t want them limited to that gender, people need to be whoever they want to be. How do we balance the view of masculinity and femininity when they exist in the opposite gender? I basically just focus on what’s good in men and women and ignore labels where I can but I purposely try… Read more »
Amen to that. What helped me was seeing feminine men, and masculine women. I have female cousins who are STRONG, they’ve defended themselves with a single punch knocking out a male, 1 was a butcher and can lift quite a bit. I’ve also known men who are very open, who build upon their emotions and empathy. A counselor I see is someone I really REALLY admire, he builds upon his empathy and you can really feel a sense of warmth just talking to him, an open mind. He’s helped me realize that my sensitivity in the past left me vulnerable… Read more »
Yes! This is exactly why it can be a problem to see traits as ascribable to “masculinity” that all men SHOULD emulate. Doing so is SO restricting to men, and it limits the traits we can see as good *for us* without even realizing it. For instance, here, I think your ability to speak so openly, to embrace who you are and talk about your good traits in this way is not limited to what culture might previously tell us is “masculine” – and, to me, THAT makes you a Good Man. I think that’s what’s changing, for all of… Read more »
YES to Nikki, and it’s what has made Archy a leader here recently.
Oh wow, a leader? I have no idea what to say but thank-you. Never thought I’d ever have such an impact :O
Great essay, Joanna! David Byron hits on a good point, and it’s something I’ve been dealing with. Ever since the grief I caught from that 20 Things list, I’ve found that I am now writing with a defensive stance, worried about catching flak from people or being accused of being insensitive. People thought it was too me-centered. I get that, but at the same time it was, in many ways, a very personal list that was taken out of context. Anyway, I like what you have to say here, and I’m glad you were able to finally work it out… Read more »
A life cannot be summed up by even 10 000 words. You can only say so much in writing and people can get it madly wrong, the important thing is how you live your life and people that know you will see something words cannot explain. I think Joanna felt that with Big Daddy, if she only heard of him through text she would have thought much different compared to actually knowing him. How do you show someone a feeling for instance? even those me centered ideas can also be extremely grateful for others, and that you also do the… Read more »
Beautifully said, Archy.
Thank-you. Believe it or not, I struggle bigtime with trying to explain myself and get the right message across, I’ve had quite a few arguments from it in the past:P. Wish I could just mindmerge with someone to explain it properly!
I think you’re doing *awesome* now Archy. Whatever you’re doing to express yourself clearly is working great. So well that if I could bottle it and sell it I’d be a trazillionaire. 😉
And I SO appreciate your thoughts.
Thank-you! It actually melts my heart quite a bit to hear, I am my own biggest critic so it’s great to hear from others ESPECIALLY of the good things. 🙂
I’d give it away for free if I could, if it’s really that great then we all need some to understand each other better.
Don’t you get defensive ! What you wrote was beautiful. If anyone gives you grief, you send them to me!!
Thanks Bobbt. I don’t think I’m defensive, I think I’m engaging in discourse. 😉
Hey Neely — we’ve been putting a bunch of new systems in place since your “20 Things” list because the last thing we want is for people to be writing from a defensive stance. We absolutely want people to be able to write personal, honest narratives — the truths as they see it — without fear. It is our job to give people that context and get a commenting system in place that doesn’t allow people to get out of hand. We are 95% there. I’d love to talk to you more about what happened and how we are course… Read more »
Thanks, Lisa! I appreciate your sentiments, and I will email you soon. I like dissent and debate, and the critques have actually inspired me and made me think a lot about my own views. I don’t think any of the comments here were too outrageous; it was another site, as you know, that was downright mean, and there’s no way to control that. I appreciate your support and kind words and agree that writing from a defensive stance is a terrible thing. Your encouragement is exactly what I needed to feel safe in my writing and opinions. I think that… Read more »
Neely
Any man that had published a list that objectified women as mainly functional utilities would have copped flack, well truth be told he would never have been published.
I disagree, This Man. Lists like that are published all the time. I think we need to be cautious that while we point out what isn’t *perfect* in our discussions, that we keep an eye on the writer’s intent. Neely’s intent was good, and many men (including David Byron) recognized it and pointed out in a respectful way how it made them feel. But some people took it as an opportunity to pound on someone who was coming with a good heart. Let’s please try to pay attention to the fact that dear Neely said that she learned a lot… Read more »
Jo S Do you agree that if a man submitted a list of things that liked about women that went. 1 – when she cooks for me 2- when she puts mys sexual pleasure first 3- the way her ass looks 3 – when she irons my shirt 4- etc. that it would be have been published here?! There may be lists published like that all the time, but they are tongue in cheek and the people writing them know it. I do appreciate that Neely learned something from the experience and I submit that the relationship between the people… Read more »
Well of course it wouldn’t be published here, this is a site for and about men!! We don’t publish things that are about why women are great. Not because we don’t like women, but that would be like an article about automotive repair in a fishing magazine. And your list is far from equivalent. But, let’s say with my ideology and beliefs, I was actually a contributing editor and writer for the fictional Good Gals Project (I htink there may be a Good Women Project, that’s why I say ‘gals”) with the same publishing guidelines, I would think critically about… Read more »
I wait until everyone’s at the table and them it’s om nom time. Interesting list, I think both lists have good points in them if you understand it isn’t about all men and some points only apply to some men, etc.
I am use to seeing and writing long comments, makes it easier to understand someones point of view and I don’t think it’d have the same effect being short. The Huffingon Post word limit annoys me to hell n back, especially if you’re quoting and trying to show someone a bias for example.
Neely – Yes, Robert was Southern so it always just worked. So also, I never thought I was coming from a place of “defensiveness” as much as, well, struggling to find the way to best convey my thoughts on a sensitive subject. You and I talked (via 140 characters nonetheless) about that struggle as I went through it. That’s why I needed it to be *this* version. Because sometimes the story is the struggle, or at least through telling about the struggle you can find a better way to tell the story you originally envisioned. I hope it came through.… Read more »
This is where I start to truly understand Tom and our conversations about framing stories. I think it’s a fair thing to tell a story with sensitivity. But if the tellers are so worried about reactions that we frame and reframe the story to death out of fear of reaction, then the gem of what made the story affecting gets lost. I enjoy understanding the contexts, histories, frames after the story is told, by asking questions, but I hate thinking that any of us as writers are censoring or diminishing our stories because we are afraid to be yelled at,… Read more »
Yes, the double-frame in my piece is like a character in and of itself, isn’t it?
I honestly never meant to imply I was “afraid”— but I was cautious. And that piece is about the caution as well as the men.
Thing is, these are delicate topics and a little caution never hurt anyone.
Very well said, Joanna, and, yes, it came through quite well. Sometimes I suppose essays start out as one thing and become another by the end. Often I let essays sit for weeks on end, only to return and chage them entirely. Your end result was great!
Neely you shouldn’t have to be defensive with your writing, people are too stupid for all of that. I thought the whole point was to be “me-centric”, nobody is that impartial and you invited readers to say what they liked about masculinity. Some of the comments were really funny though. Like substituting woman for men in the strong backs part. Homegirl was reaching with that one. For real though show me that gym these women go to, I need to tell well respected trainers that there is a gym out there where women get man results so they know there… Read more »
Yeah; it was your lovely article that I had in mind. I thought it was great but I also thought it had a lot of stuff to talk about in “theoretical” (or “political”) terms. The two just don’t sit well together. How can we hear what people are saying and their stories about men (or more often by men) if they get guilted over these things? Plus when it gets right down to it? The reason we love and appreciate people often sounds like idiocy when you put it down on paper. (Or is that just me?) You can’t throw… Read more »
David,
As I said above, your response to Neely about her piece was a model for how we can all help one another grow together.
When I tried to write just about Robert, I was concerned about the complications of White Knight-ism. To me Robert, as you talk about him, is not a White Knight. A White Knight would have made a grand gesture of it, making sure everyone knew that he was a badass and “protects women” (and I put that in quote marks because said WK prioritizes having women think he cares about them over actually helping them). Robert sounds like any guy that cares about his friends. You needed help. He gave help. Simple as that. But just to bring the point… Read more »
Thanks Danny, for the distinction.
I also think that the White Knight has a codependent element to it, as if he couldn’t be happy without “sacrificing” himself. Which is just not true. That’s why I think the idea merits a whole other discussion.
He definitely was more about protecting and making us laugh than anything else.
I also think that the White Knight has a codependent element to it, as if he couldn’t be happy without “sacrificing” himself. Which is just not true. That’s why I think the idea merits a whole other discussion. This is very true (as in I agree with your assertion here not that the need to sacrifice = happiness). This does tap into that idea that one is not a real man unless he is ready lay his life down on the spot, bonus points if its for a woman. Whenever you see/hear someone rag on a guy for not doing… Read more »
My friend posted this pic on his Facebook wall — I would find it and link here except I don’t think it was his own pic and I don’t own the rights (obv), and it was a few young people waiting for a cab on a city street. One young man was sitting down, cross-legged (what we used to call Indian-style, pre-PC) and a girl was using his BACK for a seat!! He was hunched over and she was literally using him as a *stool*! Not sitting on his lap in a mutually cute way. It *really* bothered me. I… Read more »
I do appreciate it. But I will say that depending on the circumstances he may have been okay with her doing that and it might even be a “thing” they have. When I was in college I had female friends that would literally go to sleep on top of me like I was furniture. Turns out they did that because they knew that I was the kind of guy they could do that stuff around and have no worries (and while I didn’t fully appreciate that then I’ll admit after reading stories from women and their dealings with men I… Read more »
It can hurt quite a lot though to feel someone is using you, especially if you have body image issues and do not feel attractive to the other gender. I have had female friends who came to me when they had a problem with a bf, would talk to me mostly when they had no bf and they’d find a new guy and you wouldn’t hear from them much until that bf was no more. It’s like you’re a stand in comforter, they can leech it from you but you’re never good enough to date or even be that much… Read more »
There is a lot of bitterness out there that needs to be soothed, I’d say it’s a great idea to educate people from young to be reciprocal in their behaviour and not use people. Be upfront, honest about your needs, encourage the other person to be honest and respect them.
Yes. This would save a lot of people a lot of pain.
It’s amazing how when we can finally start talking to one another we see how similar we are.
Yup, I think there are many men and women who do not speak up of these issues, probably especially the men. It doesn’t surprise me the people cannot connect with others because many issues go unsaid, the reason I can open up with my therapist so much is because he opens up to me and tells me stuff of his life, and how he’s overcome it and that reference is an important part of how he helps others (and I think I do the same thing). I know for a fact that a lot of people would be totally surprised… Read more »
Thanks Joanna.
I kinda get the feeling you were holding back for fear that the guys (or I) would bust your balls over something that might be taken the wrong way. That’s sad. Like the thing with Robert. Thanks for your sensitivity. At the same time I’d prefer to get to a place where you wouldn’t have to worry about that AND we could also discuss the “theoretical” implications, if we wanted to, without you feeling it was everyone pile on Joanna time.
Thanks again.
Well, you know, this is the third edition of this piece, as I write in the intro. When I tried to write just about Robert, I was concerned about the complications of White Knight-ism. I think there is a whole other piece in there about Robert and The White Knights (catchy title!) because I don’t think White Knighting is great as a cultural phenomenon, but there are some great White Knights in the world. Like Robert “Big Daddy” Bryson. If I get around to writing it someday, it’ll be about how the world of gender studies is complicated, but love… Read more »
“I don’t think White Knighting is great as a cultural phenomenon, but there are some great White Knights in the world. Like Robert “Big Daddy” Bryson”
Friends having each others’ backs is one thing – like what Robert did with the paparazzo -White Knighting is somethng else. White Knighting is doing it as a role – whether it’s asked for, welcome or wanted, or not – rather than as part of friendshipp. I can see you can feel the difference even if you can’t say yet what it is.