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She Said He Said try to uncover what it is about nice guys that makes most women so hesitant.
Dear Sexes: There’s this guy who has asked me out a couple times. He’s cute, he’s got a pretty good job, and he’s really nice. But I just don’t feel a spark. My friends think I should give him a chance, but what’s the point?
♦◊♦
She Said: The Nice Guy Phenomenon: when single women say they want to meet a nice guy, but when they meet him they just don’t feel “that way” about him. What do we want?!
What we want is drama! No? Not you? Sure. Think about this: ever seen a romantic comedy where a girl meets a nice guy, falls in love, they date for a while, and then they get married?
No. You haven’t. And that’s why you don’t want to go out with this guy. You want Tom Hanks to destroy your family business while secretly writing you sexy emails. You and Reese Witherspoon reject Patrick Dempsey in favor of Josh Lucas, who yells at you, rejects your phone calls, and basically tries to get struck by lightning. You would throw yourself onto train tracks to save snooty bastard Peter Gallagher (eyebrows and all) and not even notice that Bill Pullman is standing there in his denim jacket just waiting for you to see that he loves you.
I bet you’re all aww, that was so romantic! right now, aren’t you? Don’t deny it! We love drama. Drama has been selling seats in theaters since you put on your best toga to go to the Delphi in ancient Greece. We love it more than we love love itself. Seriously.
But after a while all that drama gets draining. Eventually you’ll want to put that energy into your career, your kids, your tennis swing, or your collection of red slider turtles—whatever weird thing makes you happy. Because changing your locks to keep Mr. Drama out, just to get a new key made for him a week later, is only fun once. OK, maybe twice.
So yes, go out with him. What can it hurt? Maybe you’ll learn he’s been to prison and that will make you like him more.
♦◊♦
He Said: Josie, you are right—about two things. Girls love the drama. And drama is draining. Who wants to be drained all the time (no pun intended)?!
As far as the question at hand, what IS the point of going out with a handsome, friendly, employed man? Well, what is the point of NOT going out with him? If you go on a date with this guy, and you still don’t feel “it,” no harm done. Regardless, you get a free meal, some good chat, and remember … you are a woman. It is possible this man might become more attractive to you as you get to know him better. You never know until you try. Try, try, and try again (or at least one time).
If you have a question for Josie and Eli, ask it here.
Originally appeared at SheSaidHeSaid.
—Photo: 1095062066
The article illustrates how, in a way, it serves a constructive purpose when drama queens shun good men in favor of sociopaths. The drama queens and sociopaths, drawn to each other, get what they deserve and there are fewer of them available to damage the lives of good people. The mistake good people need to avoid is to not get sucked in by drama queens and sociopath, but rather to leave them where you find them
It’s funny. I always read articles about how the nice guy deserves a chance but NEVER have I seen an article vouching for good women deserving a chance.
I did. To this day I don’t regret it.
Some of the responses I have read in this thread are appalling, I can not imagine how some men grew up thinking these were appropriate behavior. I was raised to behave with kindness, compassion and humility ask a girl out yes talk to her, learn what she likes and what she dose not but it is always at her pace. Express your interest in knowing her but accept the limits she puts in place
I’ve dated several nice guys. The majority of them – polite, employed, not too handsome, not too not handsome – turned out to be entitled, rapist jerks. I don’t date anymore.
Look at these comments, This does not sound like much fun. When do women get some advice on how to treat men? Oh, they do not need it?
@assman, no I’m not every woman, just trying to put my 2 cents in about headphones. I’m sure there are plenty of women who don’t mind being approached when wearing headphones, and I’m sure there are women who, as JF, said wear them specifically TO avoid conversations with men. I also know there are a lot of women like I am who wear headphones for one of the many reasons you listed, but probably don’t want to deal with human interaction when in the middle of a good song, escaping the world, or a podcast (whether it’s from a male… Read more »
“iPod reason sounds pretty odd and overly complicated to me”
Yes I knew someone would point that out. But that is the key point of my post. Human are incredibly fucking complicated. You can’t reduce them to simple explanations.
“I wouldn’t approach someone with headphones because I know that it’s a hassle and often awkward”
I feel the same. I don’t approach people wearing headphones because it is a hassle. But I don’t assume that I have any clue why any particular woman is wearing headphones on any particular day and that is because I am not a mind reader.
That’s the thing about asking for and giving advice. Obviously, you can’t make a blanket statement about every single situation. All the advice giver can do is talk about trends, personal experiences, and opinions–or offer up an explanation that might not have crossed your mind before. It’s up to the individual to get a feel for the situation and go from there. Unfortunately, that comes a lot more easily for some people than it does for others, and that’s why advice is a good starting point–but not the end all be all. Does he look like he’s in a good… Read more »
Oh, I’ve gotten those too. How about, “I can smell your cunt”? I was like, “fuck, I hope not!” (while walking away as fast as I could). That’s like a really fucked up Massengil ad. It’s just a part of being a woman, unfortunately, in this society, to accept that it’s true is not to condone it. It just never made me bitter, and as I’ve said before, I’ve come from a place of privelege where I’ve never been raped. I have been sexually harassed, groped, and physically violated. But I didn’t apply these experiences to all men. Things SHOULD… Read more »
I don’t apply my experiences to all men, either. I am not bitter, though I react with anger to the abuse I get. I simply do not want another relationship. I am unusual in that I really like my solitude and my space – even when I had a great relationship (my last one), I never wanted to live with him. I just wanted to enjoy him when I had the privilege of seeing him.
Online dating is horrible. And what of the time before online dating. Were all men predators then? I read stores like Sam Walton’s where he met his wife at a bowling alley and said to her “Haven’t I seen you somewhere before?” or the story from Switch where a Vietnam vet returning from the War was driving in his car and spotted a girl he knew in grade school. He stopped the car, turned around , tracked her down and found out she was working at a drugstore. He thought she was very beautiful. They ended up dating. To me… Read more »
Well Assman, it’s nice that you have the option of living in a world where romantic encounters on the street or in a bowling alley are possible. They are not possible for me. And, Assman, I don’t “claim” to feel oppressed by the way men treat me. I AM oppressed. I am not making up a “feminist” fantasy. It is simply MY experience. I did not say that all men are predators. I said that it is a violation of my boundaries when men approach me on the street with sex on their minds. I am a highly educated, cerebral… Read more »
I met my husband when he walked into the store I managed. It was a men’s store, and girls working in men’s store are seen almost as a “gift with purchase” in LA. He didn’t want to be that way, and so he came back over and over and just talked to me. I knew he liked me but he wasn’t weird at all… Finally he said something along the lines of, “I’m going to go see Old School [I think that’s what it was?] tonight at 7 and if you have plans or something and they fall through or… Read more »
That is nice for you, JF. I don’t get that kind of treatment from men. I get men staring at my breasts and saying things like, “You’re not good-looking, are you?” Or I get men stopping in cars as though to ask for directions, and then leering at me from head to toe and making comments about my body. Once as I was walking through the park a man approached and said, “I’m pretty good at eating pussy.” Or I have men demand that I “smile.” Men come across constantly as leering, drooling creeps.
“Once as I was walking through the park a man approached and said, “I’m pretty good at eating pussy.” Disgusting. I can understand why you have your opinion of men if this is your experience but to be honest your experience is as alien to me as MRAs. They have stories too about how badly and horribly women have treated them. I have no clue as to how some people experience these things and other people don’t. But I have friends who are girls and none of them have experienced anything similar to you. There is a strange disparity here… Read more »
I don’t know what to tell you, assman. This kind of thing happens to me on a daily basis. But then again, I’ve lived in large cities, so maybe that’s the difference. This is being discussed on a different thread here. I have a very thick skin about it. I don’t hate men. I’m in a relationship with a great one and most of the people I enjoy spending my time with are male. I don’t want you feel like you have to get off of an elevator because you might scare me (unless you actually intend to harass me,… Read more »
Assman asks: “One question for you: Under what circumstances are men to approach women. Not in any public place. Not at work. Not when the woman is alone in a bar. OK WHERE THEN? Please explain exactly where and under what circumstances men should be able to approach women?”
Speed dating. Match.com. Eharmony. Other dating sites where men AND women go to find mates. It isn’t that difficult.
Assman – A great many people – including members of many police departments – do not know the legal definition of rape. That is what these studies mention; the women know they were violated, but they cannot attach the word “rape” to the violation because they have never been informed of the elements of the crime of rape. When I told the local police I had been raped, they jeered at me because 1) I knew my rapist, and 2) they were (and still are) trained that forcible digital penetration of a woman’s vagina is sexual battery, not rape. This… Read more »
“I disagree that Colin fits into the category at all. But Assman’s speech about how hard it is to rape a woman was disgusting. Rape is a crime of power, and not just physical power. A 100 lb man could rape a 200 lb woman simply because he may have some sort of power over her be it a weapon, a job, housing, anything – even just fear. Rape doesn’t have to involve physical restraint. Go read Hugo’s many, many pieces on rape, even on male victims of rape.” My argument is either true or false….disgusting is an adhominem attack.… Read more »
For Assman and Colin, and the rest of the rape-deniers here:
http://www.middlebury.edu/media/view/240951/original/PredatoryNature.pdf
I disagree that Colin fits into the category at all. But Assman’s speech about how hard it is to rape a woman was disgusting. Rape is a crime of power, and not just physical power. A 100 lb man could rape a 200 lb woman simply because he may have some sort of power over her be it a weapon, a job, housing, anything – even just fear. Rape doesn’t have to involve physical restraint. Go read Hugo’s many, many pieces on rape, even on male victims of rape. Rape is when a person has sex with another person without… Read more »
“A 100 lb man could rape a 200 lb woman simply because he may have some sort of power over her be it a weapon, a job, housing, anything – even just fear. ” Well then; Is anyone eligible to consent? Do I rape my wife because I am the breadwinner and she is not? After all, she would be in a world of trouble (at least temporarily) should my income cease to be provided. The fact that I have life insurance speaks to that reality, at least partially. Whether I’m waving my pay stub over my head while asking… Read more »
If your wife ever says “no” and you lord anything over her as a consequence of her refusal, then that is rape to some degree. The end. As Emily Heist Moss said in her column about how to get laid without being a jerk, you should only be having sex if your partner is answering “Yes!” It’s easy. And I’ve been married quite a long time so I would like to think I speak with some authority here. Also, my husband is the primary breadwinner. If I thought that his providing myself and my children with our family’s home and… Read more »
Why do so many people have to make every answer so personal? We don’t have a problem in our marriage with sex or much anythng else. “If your wife ever says “no” and you lord anything over her as a consequence of her refusal, then that is rape to some degree.” I appreciate that clarification and I find it a completely reasonable attitude. However, your original statement sounded as if it were (or should be) codified into law. That’s why I asked. Interestingly, some feminist writers expressed similar, forboding attitudes about marital sex (in particular). To my knowledge, they never… Read more »
Here’s why I referred to you, specifically, in the response:
YOU: Do I rape my wife because I am the breadwinner and she is not? After all, she would be in a world of trouble (at least temporarily) should my income cease to be provided.
I knew you were being hypothetical, but if you’re going to talk about your marriage in the hypothetical, so will I.
I have no reason to make men feel guilty. I love men. I’ve said it a hundred times, I am a major guy’s-girl. That doesn’t mean sometimes you guys aren’t obtuse 😉
“I knew you were being hypothetical, but if you’re going to talk about your marriage in the hypothetical, so will I.”
Fair enough.
” That doesn’t mean sometimes you guys aren’t obtuse”
Obtuse or simply wanting for terms to be defined?
Having read your clarification, I understand and agree with what you’ve said, however, there are those who would never provide any reasonable clarification.
I’m glad you’re not one of them.
“For Assman and Colin, and the rest of the rape-deniers here: http://www.middlebury.edu/media/view/240951/original/PredatoryNature.pdf” Ah here we are getting close to the heart of the matter which is referenced as the 8th citation in the article above. There is a fundamental disagreement between feminists and me about rape prevalence and acquintance rape. The difference is this: I think women know when they have been raped whereas feminists think women don’t know that they have been raped. All of this is based on the Koss study where 73% of the women Koss counted as being raped themselves didn’t think they had been raped.… Read more »
If I remember correctly a huge portion of these women deemed to have been “raped” by the researchers went on to have more sex with their “rapists”.
@Assman: Your ideas about the nature of rape and rapists comes right out of the 1950’s. You cannot look at rape convictions and draw conclusions about the nature of rapists. Very few rapists are ever convicted, and the “normal” guy who rapes is usually never even reported, let alone prosecuted. As for your theory about how difficult it is to penetrate a woman, you assume that a penis must be used to commit rape. ANY object can be used to commit rape. Catching a woman off guard, reaching up under her skirt and penetrating her with your fingers is rape.… Read more »
“Face it, you are a rape-denier. And you are not a nice guy.” I never said I was a nice guy. As for rape denier I am not sure what the term means. If it means denying the feminist theory of rape…then indeed I am a proud rape denier. “Very few rapists are ever convicted, and the “normal” guy who rapes is usually never even reported, let alone prosecuted” How do you know that? The simplest theory (Occam’s razor) is that every time a man rapes regardless of who he is, he has an uniform probabibility of being caught. In… Read more »
To Colin: Re calling a woman with whom you disagree “crazy” or “unstable”: https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/why-women-arent-crazy/
My totally amateur, unoriginal theory: For a lot of people, two of the worst things in life are boredom and indifference. They think it’s better for someone to loathe you or fight with you than to have no feelings for you whatsoever. Better to be offended by someone or totally confused by someone than to be bored by him. If someone is needy, clingy, emotionally distant, unavailable, unreliable, self-centered, whatever, then at least there’s always something on the “to-do” list. There’s something there to convince yourself that you’re working on some sort of project. I’m not saying this is healthy.… Read more »
Which is why even the most militant, man-hating feminists are threatened by #MGTOW, which on the surface at least would seem to be what they want, is the ultimate irony
I’m dating a nice man. It’s been a completely different experience for me than most I’d had previously. Maybe I had to turn 37, with a string of failed relationships, in order to appreciate him. Maybe he had to turn 37, with his own string, in order to be a nice man. I don’t know; this is just how it happened. I did not feel a “spark” until the second date, and it’s grown slowly and surely over these 5 years. It’s been quite a surprise to me, getting to know this man without the aid of infatuation or thrill… Read more »
More likely he has been a nice man all along and has had women repeatedly blow him off until he met you. If he were a sociopath before he probably would have had more success with women and thus had much less incentive to change
Nice men can get chance ,but its a matter of gelling ,having mutual idea’s hobbies finding common ground .
Of course women want nice men.
You could say he say about men do they want nice girls ,because it often seems the opposite
No, women want men who are nice to them. What those men do to the rest of the world matters as much as the average rainfall in the capital of Brunei.
Alice, spot on. So called ‘nice guys’ are not nice at all. Because he opens a door for you or fakely acts like something he saw in a crappy romantic comedy (or does something he once saw in a crappy porno), he now has exclusive access to your vagina and relationships? He thinks he’s God’s gift to women because he doesn’t rape them, abuse them, or makes a few shallow gestures. If you leave or aren’t interested in a ‘nice guy,’ you’re a demon feminist who thinks all men are rapists but secretly wants to be abused. The men with… Read more »
Well, the whole “when and where to approach someone in a public place” question has a thousand complications of its own–it might even warrant its own article!
It does…but if you’re an intelligent person, it shouldn’t be too difficult to decipher. Girl walking home from work on a cold day, headphones on, with something clearly on her mind…probably doesn’t want to talk to anyone–it doesn’t make her a terrible person. Girl in a bar holding a drink, awkwardly smiling and looking around, scoping out the scene…yeah, go talk to her. Those are very specific situations, but even apart from them, all it comes down to is taking a minute and observing the other person’s mood, state of mind, and intentions. If you’re socially awkward (which I am),… Read more »
So what about situation like this.
Girl 1: Why doesn’t loser guy understand I don’t want him to hit on me when I am dancing all alone.
Girls 2: Why doesn’t loser guy understand that when I am out clubbing all on my own, I am looking for a hook-up.
Here is the answer: Women are not a hive-mind with breasts. Each woman is different. But NOBODY wants a hookup with a loser guy. Period.
Hey Copyleft – if you send us a question either to our email or through the blog itself, we’d love to answer it. Or maybe a series of questions. http://www.shesaidhesaid.com/ask We do have one that was about how meet girls if you don’t like pickup bars or online dating… And to go along with what Aya said, I said very clearly that if a girl has her earbuds in, never ever talk to her. Earbuds are the universal symbol for, “I’m not interested in talking.” Our column on meeting women, though if I’d known the world was such an ugly… Read more »
“Earbuds are the universal symbol for, “I’m not interested in talking.”” Nope, earbuds are the universal symbol for I am listening to something on my Ipod. Not “I’m not interested in talking”. There are many other reasons a person could be listening to their ipod such as: 1) I want to avoid the social awkwardness of both of us not talking so I will wear my Ipod because it gives both of us an excuse to not talk even though I would really like to. 2) I am bored. The Ipod is entertainment. 3) I always listen to my Ipod….its… Read more »
Okay then, how about if we just say that if a woman is listening to her ipod, and you smile at her, and she smiles back but doesn’t take out her earbud, she doesn’t want to talk to you. Of course I could be wrong in some cases, and so could the other women on here who agree with me, and the women I know who all say the same thing. But it might be smart for you to listen to us. Generalities are not absolutes, but they’re good guidelines and you can admit that I’m not a man-hater. I… Read more »
No, Assman, you do not know what women think. Earbuds DO mean “Don’t talk to me.” You engage in a great deal of wishful thinking and projection.
Keep in mind that there is a power imbalance between men and women. Men own the public space, and for the most part they feel entitled to grab women’s attention (and sometimes their body parts) in public. That is extremely annoying.
I understand what you’re saying. assman. I don’t wear earbuds specifically to show that I’m not interested in talking–I wear them for one of the reasons you listed. Yet, chances are VERY high, that when I’m wearing them, I’m not interested in human interaction. If I’m escaping the world, listening to my awesome music, or in the middle of a listening to a news cast, I probably don’t want to be interrupted, or to deal with the awkward and annoying taking one ear bud out and pausing my iPod thing. Does the difference make sense?
@Oh, no….. says: “No, Assman, you do not know what women think. Earbuds DO mean “Don’t talk to me.” You engage in a great deal of wishful thinking and projection.” So you are telling me that for every single women in the whole entire United States you know that every single ones does not what anybody to talk them.. I have a single question: How do you know that? Did you do a survey? Or are you generalizing your views to millions of people. My claim is pretty simple. I think women are not that different than men. So if… Read more »
Assman, you forget something important that I mentioned before. Men own the public space. Women have to defend themselves against men in the public space. All of the women here have said that when they have earbuds in, they do not want to be interrupted. They do not want human interaction. Listen to them.
Your argument is: Men own public space => women have to defend themselves => women will use earbuds to deflect male attention I don’t agree with the premise. You presented zero evidence for it. I don’t understand the chain of logic. How does men own public space imply that womn have to defend themselves. I don’t understand how if women did have to defend themselves they would necessarily use earbuds for it and not use earbuds for any other purpose. But really our disagreement is far more fundamental than that. I reject your strain of feminist thinking. There appears to… Read more »
I am not a feminist. I am a humanist. Do you disagree that men own the public space? I believe the debate was about when it was okay for a man to approach women in public in order to establish a sexual or “romantic” relationship with her. (I am not a romantic and do not believe in traditional “romance.”) The response thus far from the women on this list is that a woman wearing earbuds probably does not want to be approached or spoken to, and that if she does not respond with something more than a smile and remove… Read more »
I am really growing tired of GMP throwing away my comments with refreshes. ERRRRRRRRRRRRR! “Do you disagree that men own the public space?” No Your next paragraph about your charaterization of the discussion so far I fully agree with. “You may not see the issue of men approaching women in public places as an issue of predation, but in fact it is. ” Your right I don’t. “Such approaches are premised on the man’s assumption — based on nothing but his desires — that women will be receptive to his advances” They may be for some men but how could… Read more »
No one told you that every single woman who wears earbuds doesn’t want to talk. They said “wearing earbuds is the universal symbol for not wanting to talk”.
It is.
Clutching your throat is the universal symbol for choking too, it doesn’t mean every single person who ever clutches their throat is choking.
You need to google “universal symbol”.
I think your answer isn’t as universal as you make it sound Aya. Not everyone walking down the street wants to avoid conversation, not everyone wearing headphones is against popping them out at a moments notice, and not everyone who has something on their mind views a distraction as unwelcome. I’ve had a lot of pleasant experiences on both sides of that situation, approaching and being approached.
Truly nice guys don’t demonize women for not dating them or giving them a chance. There are genuinely nice guys who do accept women don’t date them due to some disinterest and not all of us are shallow and do try to date different types of women. Genuinely nice guys are not necessarily pushovers and do want at least a decent relationshp from time to time and sex truly doesn’t matter. Though truly nice guys do wonder why people don’t want to date them or even give them the slightest of a chance. Not to mention the fact that the… Read more »
I think this whole ‘nice guy’ thing is about male sexual frustration. Most people are uncomfortable even hearing male frustration discussed, so there is a tendency to suppress any such conversation by mocking frustrated men as ‘whining nice guys’, or asserting that their frustration is necessarily their own damn fault, they’re just entitled, etc., etc.. I’ve also noticed a tendency of some women to be defensive any time the subject comes up: “She doesn’t owe him a chance.” That’s true, but it doesn’t mean guys are not sincerely frustrated, or that their frustration is of their own making. Some guys… Read more »
But AnonymousDog, what is the point of talking about your sexual frustration to women? What are women supposed to do for you? It sounds as though you expect women to feel sorry for you and give you a mercy f***. Do you know how sickening that attitude is? We are not sex vending machines. We owe men nothing. We don’t have to be “nice” to you. I find it bizarre that the people posting here find my attitude “extreme” or “bitter.” It’s just a fact: women don’t exist to satisfy you.
You clearly have reading comprehension issues because no one has said women owe men sex nor has anyone said they are “sex vending machines.” With that said, women do owe men something… the same thing they owe other women and the same thing that men owe men and women… courtesy and decency which is clearly something you will not give to any man. If a man smiles at you do you spit in his face? The simple FACT is that women are, in 99% of cases, the ones who get to choose whether sex occurs or not. That means there… Read more »
No, Colin – you are the one with reading comprehension problems. I did not say that men are “just looking for women to rape.” You are furious that women get to choose whether or not to have sex. Your rage comes through loud and clear. And that makes you creepy and unattractive. You DO believe that women owe men sex. You keep talking about “getting laid.” That is such a sterile and offensive way to refer to sex. Women don’t owe you a goddamned thing, and your repellent attitude is what women flee from. Stop blaming women for your frustration… Read more »
Clearly you believe that women have the right to be as uncivil as they want with men and men simply have to deal. You are a hate-filled misandrist.
Right back at you, Colin. You believe you have the right to harass and annoy women because they don’t want to have sex with you. I don’t waste my time hating people. I detach from people when they behave badly. Fortunately, I have always been a loner who can entertain herself. I enjoy my life when it isn’t being blighted by men like you. So chew on that. You are the lonely, miserable hater, and you have to live with yourself. You can’t live with yourself. That’s a problem.
If you read any of Colin’s previous arguements, he said he wasn’t looking for sex but for an actual relationship with affection. The fact that we play off nice guys as guys who just want sex instead of guys who want a decent relationship just proves the fact that many people think the only difference between friendship and a relationship is just sex. Many people men and women want to feel loved. That doesn’t mean a women owes a man a relationship or vice versa. However many people start wondering what’s wrong with them when nobody wants to date them… Read more »
Interesting point, ADog.
Anonymous Dog says: “Too much of Nice Guy bashing is just an effort to suppress any meaningful discussion of their situation and their frustration with that situation.” I think what you’re seeing is a self-defense mechanism of women who don’t want to be exposed to the male pain being caused by women (who like the women posting) who immaturely go for bad boys and players. The women don’t want to deal with the reality that they not only are being immature, but have (likely) endured serious crap from drama kings (like cheating etc..) while never giving respectful men a chance.… Read more »
You know, the question isn’t about whether or not women like nice guys at all. And by making it about that, the advisors are perpetuating a tired, and sexist, old myth. And I’m not convinced that women should be told that they “should” “give guys a chance.” Why? She doesn’t owe him a chance; she owes him a polite response to his expression of romantic interest. Which she’s given him twice. The broader issue–whether or not we (people, not women specifically, thank you) should be willing to entertain expressions of romantic interest from people who seem “nice enough” when they… Read more »
So very true. You know, I dated bad boys. Several actually. And thanks my lucky stars I married a nice guy. He is a great friend, an amazing dad, incredibly sexy, and he appreciates me. Last week he left me little notes all over the house for me to find. In my closet he left one that said I had great style. On my mirror he left one that said I’m beautiful, on my sewing machine I found one that said my creativity amazes him, and many more. None of the bad boy jackasses I dated would have done something… Read more »
I have had this co version many times with guy friends who complain that they are “nice guys” who always get stuck in the “friend zone” with women. The problem is not that they are nice, it’s that they are uncomfortable with being sexually assertive and are afraid of rejection. To deal with that, they become friends with women, hoping that said women will someday miraculously pull off their tops and say “let’s have sex.” That’s just not going to happen. Maybe this sounds harsh, but if you are always friends with women but never lovers, then stop trying to… Read more »
Fair enough, Jill, but for every sensible woman like you there’s someone like Oh No… who equates being “sexually assertive” with being a rapist. Who can spot the crazies in advance?
Copyleft – that is a totally inaccurate ratio, and I’m bummed you’re letting an extremist like Oh No paint us all like that… The majority of women want respect, we don’t mind if you talk to us respectfully, as long as you understand when you are to go away. Here are a few keys: she doesn’t want you to hit on her if she answers you with a one-word answer and turns away. For instance, you’re standing in line at the coffee shop. You say hi, she smiles but turns away and doesn’t turn back. Don’t say anything after that… Read more »
I’d say that goes for women hitting on me. If they, don’t respond…that’s a message. Being socially assertive is great. Flirting should be like a good game of tennis, with each partner hitting the ball back and forth. If I swing and you don’t respond…I shouldn’t keep lobbing balls at you.
Fair enough. I don’t have the data to support my declared “for every good one, there’s a bad one,” so I withdraw it.
And I certainly agree that courtesy and respect for others’ statements, yes OR no, should be respected.
He said she said pukes: “Copyleft – that is a totally inaccurate ratio, and I’m bummed you’re letting an extremist like Oh No paint us all like that…” Extremist? You have just discredited yourself. I understand that you are in your twenties and relatively inexperienced, but don’t discount my experience (including being raped) by calling me an “extremist.” Try taking a time out from dating or sex. Watch what happens. You will be harassed; you will be called names like “extremist.” You will be called “crazy.” NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP. What is wrong with that? And… Read more »
Oh No, Other than disagreeing with the term “extremist”, did you disagree with anything in my previous comment directing CopyLeft in appropriate ways to engage a woman in conversation? Just curious. Also, I can’t speak for anyone else on here but neither myself nor Eli would EVER minimize your experience of having been raped. Nor would we discredit your desire to remain celibate for as long as you choose. I think it’s awesome, actually. My friend decided not to date for a year, I think when we were 28, and he grew immensely as a person in that time and… Read more »
He Said She Said: I re-read what you wrote, and, yes, other than disagreeing with the insult “extremist,” I do agree with you. I am not deeply angry at all men. I am very angry at a specific group of men and some local authorities who chose to assist and encourage my rapist and stalker instead of helping me. My experience has been truly shocking. One of the shocks is the extent to which men’s sexist fantasies about me have governed the situation. So I am less than patient with whiny, hostile men like Assman, Colin and Cofelt or Coleft… Read more »
I intentionally said assertive, not aggressive. You have to be clear about your romantic/ sexual interest and be willing to drop it and move on if she’s not interested. Obviousky I don’t mean pushing yourself on someone sexually.
Copyleft says: “Fair enough, Jill, but for every sensible woman like you there’s someone like Oh No… who equates being “sexually assertive” with being a rapist. Who can spot the crazies in advance?” Crazy? Do you know how many women are raped every year? If a woman has already told you she’d not interested in sex with you, and you continue to be “sexually assertive” with her, you are committing sexual assault. Rapists are generally not strangers who jump out of the bushes and rape virgins – they are pissed off guys like you who push sexual acts on women… Read more »
Listen, Oh No, there is a big difference between being assertive, being aggressive and being an actual rapist. Being assertive is healthy, it just means being upfront about what you want. Like asking a woman out on a date vs. just hanging around with her and her friends hoping she’ll notice you. Being assertive means telling a woman that you are interested in her in a romantic/sexual way vs. pretending you just want to be “friends.” Obviously, if someone makes a romantic gesture that isn’t reciprocated, they should back off. That’s true for both men and women. But if someone… Read more »
Jill – I did not say that the majority of men are rapists. I said that 80% of rapes are committed by men who know their victims. There is a great deal of denial in this culture about the nature and extent of rape. I prefer that men be upfront about their desires, and I also demand that men take “no” for an answer. In my experience, men do not listen to “no.” A lot of men have talked at me about sex for years, and I try to just let that stuff pass because I value those men as… Read more »
“There is so much more to me than my physical attributes.” I’ll second that, and it ain’t pretty, even if her face and body are. This woman is not a nice person, and I’ll wager that she never was. She’s extra bitter lately, but I’ll also wager that her miserable sh!t testing weeded out any truly decent respectful men- finally scoring a guy that actually raped her. No one deserves such a caustic attitude; ONLY a guy interested in the thrill of the chase and getting laid at the end will be willing to put up with it. I’m done… Read more »
No, you are crazy. TALKING is not assault, period. No one is talking about corning a woman in some dark alley and demanding she give it up. NO ONE. Sexually assertive is what I don’t do… which I should. Things like, if we’re sitting at the bar drinking and talking, touching her hand gently, or having my hand brush her shoulder when I get up to go to the restroom, etc.
You hate men, we get it. You hate ALL men, we get it. Men aren’t animals; we’re people.
“Things like, if we’re sitting at the bar drinking and talking, touching her hand gently, or having my hand brush her shoulder when I get up to go to the restroom, etc. ” Exactly. Sex involves a smooth progression from light touch ( touch on the hand, on the arm, shoulder), to progressively more intimate touching: touch on the small of the back, squeezing someone’s hand, hugging etc. Simultaneously there are other things you can do to indicate interest like ask about previous relationships, complement her appearance, tell her you find her attractive, that you would like to spend time… Read more »
Know-it-all Colin says: “No, you are crazy. TALKING is not assault, period. No one is talking about corning a woman in some dark alley and demanding she give it up. NO ONE. Sexually assertive is what I don’t do… which I should. Things like, if we’re sitting at the bar drinking and talking, touching her hand gently, or having my hand brush her shoulder when I get up to go to the restroom, etc. You hate men, we get it. You hate ALL men, we get it. Men aren’t animals; we’re people.” I did not say that talking is assault.… Read more »
It’s all context. I have had men touch my shoulder lightly after we’ve been talking for awhile in a bar, and it doesn’t bother me at all. I’ve also had strange guys try to grope me on the dance floor, and that pisses me off. Oh No, you need to stop being abusive. You are being trollish and trying to shut down the discussion. The discussion here is often lively and sharp, but you are crossing the line by making personal attacks on other commenters. Again, I’m sorry about your personal experiences, and I am not downplaying those, but this… Read more »
Yeah, okay, I’m sure that women are totally respond to a guy who asks if they can touch their hand. You’re sitting at the bar, drinking, chatting, having a good time, and the man asks, “Can I touch your hand?” If there was anything, I’d bet my last dollar that almost every woman would be extremely turned off by that. It just doesn’t work like there. Not everything in life is verbal… in fact, verbal communication is only 10% of communication. People don’t always ask nor do they always have to ask to touch someone else. You’re in a meeting… Read more »
Colin, I used to go to my favorite restaurant to eat at the bar. Men would sit down next to me and then start talking. Now, I like talking to people and hearing their stories. But when some guy presumptuously strokes my neck or the small of my back after talking to me for ten minutes, I am offended. Most men I encounter cannot read physical cues, or they just don’t care about what a woman does or does not want, because the men are blinded by their desire to get laid by someone, anyone. I am a real person.… Read more »
” Most men I encounter cannot read physical cues, or they just don’t care about what a woman does or does not want…I am sitting at a bar eating and having a glass of wine with my meal, I am looking to get laid. ” They are reading your cues just fine. You are sitting at a bar alone. You should expect to get hit on and if you don’t your an idiot. You don’t want to get hit on? Why the fuck wouldn’t you just sit at a table or take your food to go. A bar is the… Read more »
Colin,
this go ’round with an awful but (self proclaimed) pretty woman ought to serve as a lesson to you that even the prettiest women aren’t fitted for wings and halos.
Go ahead and risk rejection.
Who knows, maybe the first one who rejects you from this day forward will be the very woman with whom you’ve been striving – kinda makes you breathe a sigh of relief; no?
Ok…one thing I’m confused about. What is all this uproar about a woman’s gina tingling? What’s wrong with a woman being turned on? Actually being turned on while having sex…is…awesome. I think most men want to be turned on by the woman they f***, shouldn’t women have that option too? My gina is tingling just by thinking of tingly ginas…:)
Aya, don’t you know that women are not supposed to like sex? They are supposed to “give it up” in response to male groveling and gift-giving. Silly girl!
Female desire doesn’t enter into the equation. It’s all about MALE desire – the women be damned. And if a woman dares to enjoy sex, she will be branded a “slut.” What a “nice” world we live in.
Nothing wrong with enjoying sexual stimulation. I apologize if the way I worded that post made me seem derisive of female pleasure.
What I am critical of is women who seem to invalidate the possibility that a nice guy- possibly one with whom she is contemptuously familiar- can make her feel that way, instead going for the pump and dump peacock who knows what to say, where to touch and little else, leaving a woman with a hostile bitter attitude like “Oh,no”.
Screw you, Woggy. Or rather, I hope nobody screws you! I never went for “pump and dump peacocks.” The last time I had a relationship, I chose a guy who stuck around for years – and he was sexy and no-BS and unapologetic fun. He didn’t bother with being “nice.” But he was respectful – which is far more important than “nice” – and he enjoyed other facets of my being than the sexual part. He took the time to listen to me and to hear what I said to him – something I notice that the majority of American… Read more »
Any “Nice guy” who manifests his niceness by being in some woman’s “Friend Zone”- where emotionally castrated eunuchs make her habit of chasing Mr Ginatingles a pursuit with minimal cost involved, since her eunuchs will do all of that utilitarian stuff guys are good for- doesn’t DESERVE a chance.
Woggy – really? Women use men? What about men using women? That’s what I have gotten most of my life – men coming after me just so they can brag to their friends that they “got some” from me. I don’t think those men really enjoy sex beyond the momentary squirt of orgasm. They certainly don’t like women as human beings AT ALL. You don’t like women either – you hate them for not being interested in you, and then you act like a jerk. Good luck with that!
Sure men use women- it’s just that the article was about giving nice guys a chance. “You don’t like women either – you hate them for not being interested in you, and then you act like a jerk. Good luck with that!” Hmmm…. I’m not sure how you gleaned that summation of me from anything I’ve posted here or anywhere else. I’ve had women ask me for sex when I was in locales you’d least expect that sort of approach. I always politely declined- not because I don’t like them, but because I have a wife who I adore and… Read more »
Woggy – what are you babbling about? “Too bad you didn’t give a nice guy a chance while YOU had the chance”? There are no “nice” guys. You can find that out by saying no to them, and watching their rage bubbling over. “Nice” is a facade, an attempt to “get some.” Why does everyone have an obsession with pairing up? Why are people so uncomfortable with women who prefer to be alone? Don’t you realize that there is more to life than being part of a couple?
What Nice Guys need, and what they deserve, isn’t a chance. It’s an honest narrative about how attraction, and romantic/sexual relationships, work. A narrative that says it really is ethical to have sexual attractions, and to act on them. A worldview that allows for the realistic possibility that whoever they’re interested in might be interested in them too.
I don’t know how to give that to them, though. I am a Nice Guy, and so I don’t really believe those things myself.
So you are saying that you don’t believe it’s ethical to act on sexual attraction? Or are you saying that no one else believes it. Sure it’s ethical to have and act on sexual attraction….so long as you do it ethically.
Well, I was being a little loose with my language, sorry. I meant to imply the basis of Nice Guy-ness is that they don’t think it’s `Nice’ to confront women they’re attracted to by revealing their attraction, since she’s then likely to feel pressured, or creeped out, or whatnot. I manifested as a Nice Guy this way, with the concerns about pressure, creepiness, awkwardness, and a layer of the insultingness of the presumption that she might be interested. If I thought she might be interested, then it might be ethical, but I never did (and eventually settled on a work-around… Read more »
The problem, Brian, is that more often than not there is no “realistic possibility” that the woman in question might be interested in having sex with you. Men appear to be fantasy-driven, and they do not respond well to verbal cues. It isn’t about shaming or what a man “deserves.” It is about overcoming male narcissism and entitlement – that they MUST have sex with whomever they want. As a victim of stalking several times over, I can tell you that we would all be better off if men would simply pay attention to what women say to them. Use… Read more »
If they use their words and aren’t idiots, they probably will find that it’s usually a realistic possibility that the woman in question is interested. As a Nice Guy, when I worked up enough entitlement to tell a woman I was interested in her, 90% (i.e., nine of the ten times) were interested (and half ended up having sex with me -so yes, at least as often as not there was a realistic possibility). You can’t just throw every accusation at Nice Guys at see what sticks in this context. The audience is Nice Guys – they know what they’re… Read more »
Oh No Says: “The problem, Brian, is that more often than not there is no “realistic possibility” that the woman in question might be interested in having sex with you. Men appear to be fantasy-driven, and they do not respond well to verbal cues.” Oh No, you seem to be presuming a lot of negative intentions upon men who are simply performing the role they must to secure female companionship AS DETERMINED BY WOMEN. If the problem is men hitting on women, that is borne out of female passivity. Women thrust the role of initiator upon men. If you’re getting… Read more »