You Can Get Laid Without Being a Jerk

There are a lot of ways to be a jerk when you’re trying to get laid. Emily Heist Moss writes a letter to her brother about how to make hook-up culture be about pleasure and consent, instead of “scoring.”

A letter to my brother, and all his college friends,

College is awesome, right? No parents, no curfew, no rules, and there are girls everywhere. It is an alcohol-fueled, school-spirit-enhanced buffet of ladies, and it’s hard not to want to sample everything on the menu. So you should! Seriously, I’m not going to rain on what could potentially be a literal parade, so just be safe and have fun.

You’re waiting for the “but,” because I’m your nagging big sister and that’s what I do. Here it is: Be safe, have fun, but don’t be a manipulative, coercive asshole about it. There’s story after story about on-campus sexual assaults, astoundingly high rates of date-rape, and even more terrifying estimates of unreported incidents. I’m not worried you’ll be that guy, but there are still dozens of tempting and legal ways to be a douche when you’re trying to get some action. Forgoing these “techniques” requires recalibrating your hook-up goals to emphasize consent, respect, and yes, pleasure, instead of “scoring.”

◊♦◊

There are strategies to get laid that are violent and criminal, and there are methodologies that are just mean-spirited and misogynistic. You can find the drunkest girl in the bar and hand her another shot. You can physically back a girl into a corner at a party until the only way out is through you. You can cut a girl down to size with backhanded “compliments,” belittle her until she thinks the only way to feel good again is to win your attention. You can taunt her with insults about prudishness, until she thinks she needs to prove something. You can taunt her with insults about sluttiness, until she thinks she might as well confirm what you already think of her. You already know that these dick moves are beneath you.

There are milder forms of deception and coercion, though, tactics that are dangerous because of their efficacy and subtlety. These are the ones to which I want to draw your attention. You can lie about your feelings for her. You can promise things you can’t deliver. You can agree to commitments you know you’ll break. You can hear hesitation or uncertainty in her voice, and ignore it. You can play with her emotions, knowing full well that if you were honest about your lack of intentions, you’d lose your shot at a hook-up. You can know that if she were sober, she wouldn’t be doing this, and you can go for it anyway. A court might not convict you, but I hope you know that these are dick moves, too.

The pronouns in this essay thus far would suggest that I think only men can be coercive when it comes to sex, and we all know that’s patently untrue. We know male rape is a real issue, and that the stigma against victims can be excruciating. We know that women can lie and scheme their way into sex just as well as men. We know that insults to masculinity, epithets like “pussy,” or accusations of homosexuality can compel guys to do things they don’t want to do, just to prove a point. The toolbox may look different, but we know that girls can wield emotional manipulation and social coercion with expert dexterity.

All these strategies work more often than we’d like. I hope someday we can better teach teenagers (and adults) to call bullshit when they see it and to let the insults roll of their backs instead of eat at their self-esteem. But in the meantime, the fact that those manipulative moves might work doesn’t mean you should use them. These are tools for weak people, people for whom sex is a contest and winning matters. Sex can, and should, be fun. It can be playful, it can be casual, but it isn’t a game. Whether enacted by men or women, these bullshit strategies are not sexy, they are not cool, and—quaint as it may be—they are not very nice. There’s nothing wrong with a little push-pull, a little back-and-forth banter with a prospective partner, but assigning a winner and a loser to a sexual encounter sets us all back a couple decades.

◊♦◊

You should never feel like you’ve been convinced to have sex, and you should never feel like you’re doing the convincing. You want partners—one-night-stands or long-term relationships—who want to have sex with you as much as you want to have sex with them. The culturally established “no means no” is too low a bar. Only yes means yes. And I’m not talking about an “I guess we could…” or an “I don’t really care….” or an “Only if you really want to….” or a “Might as well…” I’m talking about an enthusiastic, excited, sustained “Yes!” Are those “yesses” less frequent than the non-committal, hesitant “not-nos?” Yeah, they are, but it’s worth it to know that the people you’re fooling around with really want to fool around with you, too.

Alcohol clouds everyone’s decision-making abilities, but it doesn’t make us deaf. Even at frat row, bar crawls, or crowded house parties, you need to listen for that “Yes!” And you need to be saying it too! If you’re a “Yes!” and your partner is a “Yes!”, then I revert to my original advice: be safe, have fun. Consent is not a traditionally sexy concept, but I absolutely guarantee you that two enthusiastic, excited, sustained “yesses” is what it’s all about.

Love,

Your big sister,

Emily

 

—Photo taberandrew/Flickr

About Emily Heist Moss

Emily Heist Moss is a New Englander in love with Chicago, where she works at a tech start-up. She's a serious reader and a semi-pro TV buff. She writes about gender, media, and politics at her blog, Rosie Says. (Follow her: @rosiesaysblog, find Rosie Says on Facebook). 

Comments

  1. No woman should ever give advice to men on how or how not to pick up women. There I said it. Unless she is a lesbian she has no idea what it takes to seduce her or other women. That is the bottom line. I think women have valuable and important things to say but they miss the target more times than not when analyzing the issues that men face when it comes to women. No woman in her right mind is ever going to tell a guy to be a douchebag or a jerk to try to pick up a woman or get in her panties. Many women think that a guy can get a woman just by being nice but ask any guy who doesn’t have Brad Pitts looks, Dwayne “the Rock” Johnsons body or Donald Trumps bank account and they will tell you that being themselves doesn’t work because if it did they wouldn’t need to seek advice from the so called gurus on how to get laid. The truth is you shouldn’t be a jerk but most of the typical nice guy things won’t work either. The answer lies somewhere in the middle. For example most nice guys wont’ even tease a woman(which is not the same as being mean). Jerks do this automatically but take it too far. That’s just for starters. There is a lot more to it.

  2. i can’t thank you enough for posting this.
    i just broke up with someone for this very reason.
    whether you are male or female, it’s just important to really listen.
    It’s painful when someone you’re crazy about is hesitating, but if you genuinely care for someone then you honor their right to hesitate and you back off.
    Control and coercion can never co exist with love.
    I feel like, a lot of people are groomed to be go-getters, salespeople and “overcome obstacles” — these may be good strategies in the workplace or the marketplace, but in personal relationships they spell doom.
    The last thing i want is to be ‘won over’ through sales tactics or otherwise manipulated.

    I guess i’ve come to realize it takes a very secure, emotionally strong person to allow another the freedom to choose without any type of pressure.

    As they say, set it free. If it comes back, it’s meant to be.

  3. So, let me put this out there. I have heard it said by professionals in human behavior that “what a women wants most is to be desired.” Do you all think this also??

    • well hell. anybody?? I guess its just you and me Andrea.

    • Well I think that’s a bit hard to gauge AND define. I’d prefer to be thought of as attractive, but it’s not my #1 priority. And does desirability in this case mean as a partner, taking into account my personality and abilities, or is it more/purely physical?

      • Yes, desire is hard to define. I suppose it takes all into account. But, to be wanted, is at the core of desire. And to be wanted is very powerful. I don’t think desire is limited to lust.

        • Well how can you say that all women want the same thing? Everybody is different, you can’t say that is every woman’s big turn-on. I mean, most people do want to be desired, but I seriously doubt that that’s what attracts a woman to a man every time. And again this has the same implication of men always being the initiators. It’s 2013 everybody, women and men should be thought of as equals, and it should not be a surprise for a girl to initiate, they have a sex drive just like men do, its a bond that all human beings share.

  4. Except we all know that women under the age of 30 can’t tell the difference between a$$hole and confident.
    It makes for a real conundrum.

  5. Great letter – if only I always remembered to NOT READ THE COMMENTS I’d be feeling pretty good right now! I don’t understand how every well reasoned, thoughtful article I ever read seems to also be read by loads of people who then use the comments to spew utter rubbish that shows the most basic grasp of the topics behind the article are completely beyond them. Case in point – “It’s a nice article, but it’s basically useless! All it really does is tell you to be just another caring, courteous nice guy! Unfortunately, being a nice guy is a well known recipe for failure!” *headdesk*

    • Right?!

    • I feel your frustration……..

    • What I find most frustrating about these comments is that there aren’t more men responding to this article, and the ones that are seem to be disagreeing with it — which is fucked up beyond belief. This article defines a standard that all of us guys (and girls) should adhere to- both for our own personal well-being, and the well being of all of the women (or men) in our lives. Nobody should be persuaded to have sex. Sex really is a beautiful thing when it’s between two people who wholeheartedly want to experience it together. Also, any guy who thinks its a turn-off for women to initiate sex is just messed up. There’s nothing sexier in the world than a strong, independent woman who knows what she wants.

  6. circlebill1 says:

    It’s a nice article, but it’s basically useless! All it really does is tell you to be just another caring, courteous nice guy! Unfortunately, being a nice guy is a well known recipe for failure!

    • The above only deals with consent, and making sure you’ll know it when you see it. There’s a little more to courtship, though — to have people interested in you, you have to be interesting.

      Why wouldn’t I go for the interesting nice guy over the interesting douchebag?

    • An Ethologist says:

      Except when it’s not.

    • Be interesting! I’m dating a really interesting, and also very nice guy. I was attracted to the niceness. There are a lot of “nice guys” out there that think they deserve the girl just because they’re in no way offensive. Consider that most of the jerks out there are getting laid not because they’re jerks, but because they tend to have opinions and hobbies and such.

      • I think that is true. Being interesting is more important than being nice for sure. But, in the long run, being an interesting jerk will not be tolerated as much as a polite wimp.
        That’s why we have affairs. So we can be with the jerk once in while but come home to the wimp for the long term.

    • I think that caring about the other person and being a “nice” guy is only a recipe for failure if you are going after the kind of girls with so little respect for themselves that they expect you to be a jerk. Which is probably most girls these days… more than half of the other women I’ve met have been sexually abused in some way before the age of 16. Which means their idea of what a “real man” is, is likely messed up. So they go after the guys that are likely to abuse them – because that’s what they’ve been taught. They wear clothing that makes a guy want their body first and foremost because these girls legitimately believe their body is their best asset. When you believe that being a jerk is the only way to get ahead with women, it perpetuates their idea that they should expect men to be jerks. It might get you somewhere – but is it really where you want to be? Personally, I was never abused and I believe I’m worth someone’s time – and the right guy is worth mine. I get whistles and guys calling me “hot” all the time – but I choose to dress in a way that encourages them first noticing my face. I like it when guys treat me with respect and legitimately want to know about my hobbies and my life. No matter how sexy us girls are, there are always going to be girls with bigger boobs, but there’s only one personality exactly like mine. And I become crazy about the guy who takes the time to know ME. It doesn’t mean I want a wimp. A friend showing up on a Harley to take me for dinner is awesome. If his goal is to get to know me – not to get into my pants.
      There are still some of us girls with self respect out there! And the ones without self respect are more likely to gain it if guys stop believing their only option is to be a jerk!

  7. Apr 25, 2008· common sense says the actual wildlife are adults with the heart. In the world of materialism, consumerism, and persistent comparison genuinely creatures show enjoy …animals

  8. reg schroeder says:

    if you watch animals “court” you can learn a lot about humans. watch as the bull nudges the cow and she withdrawls. watch how she resists his advances but always leaves a little room for possibilities. then watch how she gives in as he climbs on her back.
    there is always a “maybe” in regards to mutual sex. males leaning to turn the maybe into a yes is very much a part of the dance.
    many times if a women initiates sex it is a turn off to the man also. if the the penis says no then “yes” does not matter.

    • wellokaythen says:

      Yes, but WHICH animals are the best models for human courting behavior? In my experience, there’s more than one praying mantis out there…. : – )

      • reg schroeder says:

        i don’t know what that means?? more than one praying mantis out there.

        • Female praying mantis bite the head of the male praying mantis and eats him during the mating ritual. using animal courting behaviour isn’t necessarily the best example to model human courting behaviour

    • Actually, sometimes there is no “maybe”. I’m not going to elaborate. This should be obvious.

      Also, if a man is sexually interested in a woman, yet turned off if she initiates sexual contact, then don’t worry, I will back right off from that dysfunctional shell of a man.

      • Sorry, that was harsh. Such a response is probably involuntary, learned through decades of being bombarded with traditional gender roles.

        • I don’t think that was harsh. I agree with you completely. A man getting an unwilling woman to eventually consent to sex with him is a just a misogynistic power trip. Sex is much more pleasurable when both parties are excited to be doing what they’re doing. The energy is better, the mood is better, and the sex is better.

      • I am not sure where any of these posts are going. I can’t find the most current posts.
        so I’ve become lost in whatever conversation we might be having. no matter, I believe sex is pointless without a real connection. but, I believe one can have many connections in a lifetime.

    • An Ethologist says:

      Are you seriously trying to compare human sex for pleasure to animal mating? Do you actually know anything about animal behavior or biology? Because going here to support this point of view tells me you haven’t spent much, if any, time actually studying either. And do you know anything about evolution or why our bodies are designed the way they are sexually? It’s because, for the most part, we AREN’T like most other animals when it comes sex. And while it’s not always true (because there are always exceptions, yes we know that because I assume we’re all capable of some rational thought so let’s not jump to those like they prove anything) the general rule is that the more intelligent the animal, the more pleasurable the sex and the more likely they are to engage in mutual courtship. On top of this, while I’m actually pretty fond of evolutionary psychology, I’m pretty sure that as humans we can move above and beyond the base instincts of creatures that were bred to be fairly docile and not nearly as intelligent as their ancestors so we could cultivate them for our own nutrition. There are things we can and should look to the animal kingdom to explain about ourselves and there are places where we should actually throw that out and start utilizing the morals OUR species has evolved to believe. Specifically the places where we actually treat each other like we’re part of the same species and worthy of respect. “Because I think this is how cows work” is a lazy and irresponsible excuse that enables people to be jerks, not a legitimate reason for any sort of social interaction.

      • This was an old post and having you respond is a complete surprise.
        I would suggest that there are similarities between man and animal. Just a difference in courtship rituals. How is human dancing different than a mating ritual of swans?
        Obviously our experiences have been different.in regards to courtship. But in my experience the female is often reluctant to engage and the male pressures her by his being persistent. It is because of his persistence that she will not deny his intent and “gives in.”.
        Sorry if that is not how you see it or that you think being human somehow elevates you to a level above this behavior.
        I don’t think we are dogs but I am pretty sure intercourse would not happen if the “animal” in us were not present.

        • Reg: perhaps you and I are using certain words differently.

          If a man pressures a woman for dating or sex, and she eventually gives in, that sounds… awful. Are you saying this is normal? I go out with guys if I feel that I would like to, and if they have the same interest in me; not because they pursued me so relentlessly that they wore me down.

          True, the man has historically been the puruser. But in a healthy courtship, this involves the man taking one step forward, and the woman matching him, and so on and so on.

          I should mention that I believe “playing hard to get” is one of the most damaging things women can do, as it perpetuates and necessitates the scenario you described.

          • no I don’t think that is what I am saying. I am saying, if one person does not make a sexual advance, nothing is going to happen. so, in my twisted experience MAKE A MOVE with someone you like and tell them that.
            funny thing is watching some guy put moves on a girl seems way different than doing it myself. it seems contrived. such an awkward dance.
            I love women. Reggie suggests to read the book “The Women.” amazing story about Frank Lloyd Wright.

            • Okay, good. I think we were not on the same wavelength. I interpreted, “there is always a “maybe” in regards to mutual sex. males leaning to turn the maybe into a yes,” as very, very creepy.

    • My wife and I have a fantastic sex life and I have to say I agree with this concept. She ROUTINELY says ‘no’ even (especially?) when she’s in the mood, and she gets really turned on (and so do I) when I push a little harder for sex. I think some part of her is saying, “no, I don’t want sex… unless you REALLY mean it, in which case, f**k the shit out of me!”

      This blurs a lot of lines that shouldn’t be blurred by new partners though. It just isn’t safe for anyone. When she and I first met, we both definitely said “Yes” and I was still plenty turned on =)

      • I admit I also wasn’t thinking about two people who knew each other well.

      • Keilah speaks plainly about creating sexual tension. And Andrea, I have forgotten some the stupid things I probably said early on in this thread.
        One thing I have learned is many women feel as if “planned sex” is not ok. So, they wait for a “S.O.” to be a little pushy. In that way they can justify what happens as being spontaneous.
        I hope this makes sense to someone. This is just my experience with “some” women.

        • I reads a LOT differently when I consider two people who are in a relationship, and who actually DO want to have sex with each other! I had only thought about people who were (say) starting to see each other, or hadn’t yet, as is the tone of the article.

  9. We’re somewhere standing at some noisy venue on a long Memorial day weekend deep in the Hamptons. All around us are the surly signs of young boys and girls looking for that special something, or rather someone special. Then again at 2 am in the morning perhaps anything or anyone….

    http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2012/06/the-ins-and-outs-of-getting-laid-in-the-hamptons/

  10. was written in response to a blog post that was featured in our End

  11. Mark,

    Stop being some aspergery coward and get a good GFE escort. You will never look back.

  12. Chicks dig jerks……

    ’nuff said.

  13. Jose Vizcarra says:

    Nice, but the last thing this brother should do is to follow his sister’s advice. Life, almost 40 years of growning up among women only, have taught me that women’s advice will make you the kind of man women don’t find attractive.
    See the article with Dempsey’s picture for reference.

  14. And this is all many good men see when it comes to courtship — a long list of don’ts. That’s not enough to encourage good behaviour.

  15. While reading this article, I get a flashback to the point when i was called a pussy by a girl, after i refused to jump in the pool with her. That was her way to coerce me in to having sex with her . Sex should be as mutual as possible no party should feel coerced into indulging in sex. It take intelligence for both the girl and the boy to indulge in sex and still have emotions intact. Because if the guy gets to manipulate his way through and leave with his emotions intact then he is a jerk. If he is too open with his desire then he is still jerk.

  16. Black Iris says:

    Okay, I confess I’ve read some PUA advice. It has some good points, and some really bad points.

    The good advice:

    They start in bars or places where young single women are gathering to met guys. These are women who might be interested in sex and going after women who might want sex is a huge first step.

    They tell men to go over to the woman they are attracted to right away so that they don’t have time to lose confidence. The guys have something planned to say.

    They tell guys to figure out as soon as possible if the woman is there with another guy. If she is, move on. Again, no wasting time making passes at someone who is unavailable.

    They advise guys to look good. Nothing huge, just basic hygiene and reasonably neat clothes.

    They tell guys to approach women in a group and talk to the whole group. This takes the pressure off the woman and makes her less likely to feel threatened.

    The bad points:

    In the long run, the lifestyle of running around screwing strangers is bad for the men!!!!! Please don’t forget that Mystery has attempted suicide. When the guy who wrote the book finally found a woman he liked, she saw him as fake. There were a bunch of stories about PUAs losing women and being unhappy.

    Many of the techniques they teach are manipulative. That’s where you may end up getting laid but being a jerk. Negging women so that they’ll feel insecure and want you is bad. Making women think they’re going to have a relationship when all you want is sex is bad. You may get laid doing these things, but you’re not being a good man.

    • Black:
      The success of PUA I would say is mostly due to this:
      There is no other system out there to help men. PUA is all men have.
      Also, any individual man can take whichever elements from PUA he wants, and leave those he doesn’t want.

      For me, the most important tidbit I got from PUA is the manner in which women sh*t-test their men. A great deal of women sh*t-test their men whether they are 20 years into a marriage or on a first date. It is expressly represented in most PUA forums that sh*t-testing is a subconscious behavior of women. They think they are actively annoyed about something, but what is really going on in her brain is something totally different.

      The most eye-opening article I read on why women sh*t-test was on a PUA forum. It went like this: even when not expressing interest in sex, men like exploring women’s curves–feeling and caressing them (I’ve often done this w/my wife while lying w/her to watch tv).

      If women like confidence like men like beauty, then how does a woman “caress” his confidence? By sh*t-testing him. Sh*t-tests are done by women to make sure that her man still “has it”.

      Men like a very tangible aspect–beauty. Women like a very intangible aspect–confidence. It only stands to reason that women are going to have a drive to “feel” her mans confidence as men like to caress a woman’s curves.

      Men should be equal partners in a long-term relationship, and do their share of work and have respect for the woman (if it’s not returned then he has to make a decision).

      However, men should not obey every nagging little nitpicking complaint of women. Nobody likes or respects or “gets hot for” a doormat person.

      If she expresses an annoyance about a habit or something else (out of the blue)–don’t apologize (especially if you’re in a group) point out one of hers. If she complains that you didn’t do some chore correctly, than come back with if you burn off extra calories doing it wrong you’ll just get more exercise (or some other quip). Or make some other wise crack. What you SHOULDN’T do: apologize or admit you’ll do the chore her way in the future.

      The point is, don’t take your woman or yourself so seriously. You have to be willing to make fun of her and yourself.

      I think that the good in PUA could (possibly) far outweigh the bad. There are PUA websights for LTR, that quite frankly could save thousands of marriages.

      Contrast that to (what?) some vaginas (or other orifices) of women are being used under false pretenses?

      The way most feminists (and some women) shame men who use PUA tactics you’d think women’s souls were located in their vagina & the women were being sent to “don’t sell it cheap” hell or something when they have casual sex. Somewhere a man is getting access to a vagina cheaply, OH MY GOD!

      Get over yourselves.

      • If these same feminists extolling the nastiness of PUA were also calling out women who exercise divorce theft, then at least they would be consistent.

        But, as always with these battle of the sexes articles, feminists are only concerned about the harm to women. God forbid some woman somewhere gives up her companionship due to bs pillowtalk, but let’s not mention the great harm to men and children women due by engaging in divorce theft.

        Lifetime alimony is still the law of the land in many states. And this is supposed to be the century of equality? What a joke.

      • Isn’t it men who believe a woman’s soul is located in her vagina? Just have to play devil’s advocate here.

        One of the things about PUA that I find deeply ironic ( though PUA’s themselves seem deadly serious and totally immune to irony), is how on the one hand it’s sold as a male empowerment movement, yet at the same time, women — or, let’s be blunt, women’s vaginas — still have all the power in the relationship. A man’s worth is judged by how many vaginas he’s able to put his penis into. The movement teaches that a man can achieve greater success in life become a fully actualized person (to use standard self help jargon) only by improving his odds of inserting his penis in the vaginas of more women. That’s pretty amazing when you think about it. When I first read PUA literature, I was repulsed by the extreme objectification of women as being of no real value other than as sex toys and status objects form the PUA. I wanted to yell at these guys — hey, I’m more than boobs and a vagina! However, I eventually realized that its the PUA men who come across as fundamentally weak in their need for constant validation of their self-worth through having sex with women and our apparently magic hoo-hahs.

        • Jill,

          Newsflash! Men like female compansionship! Oh wait, that’s not news!

          Let me explain it like this: You think many PUA gurus and pundits are dysfunctional.

          My response? Fair enough–I agree.

          But, what did you expect? As more and more women’s attraction markers becomes deeply dysfunctional, the men who most meet these markers will tend to be dysfunctional! (doy!)

          When a good percentage of young women have such f*cked up sensibilities that the average ex-con thug has more potential for female companionship than a timid IT professional pulling down $80k or more a year, something is wrong–WRONG WITH THESE WOMEN! And the portion of these women (as a percentage) grows and grows with each new generation of women to come into their 20’s, thanks to the marriage averse and narcissistic culture strangling out all voices of loyalty and honor.

          But, there is a lot in PUA that good men can take from the movement to keep heat in their marriages. Athol Kay’s sight is a good place to start. There is A LOT for men to pull from PUA to learn about building (successful) LTR’s or dating women (even in a respectful way).

          I stand by my statement that many feminists and a great deal of women seem to get their panties in a bunch at the thought of a man getting access to a woman’s body with the low price of admission being bs pillowtalk.

          You’d think that the sun, moon and stars revolve around women’s vaginas. Get over yourselves!

          (PS up thread I talked about your marriage study. I don’t think your point about marital infidelity holds any water as related to that study)

          Once again, if you want a change for the better support shared parenting or other reforming of divorce laws which currently encourage women to exercise divorce theft.

          • Or maybe these woman are just angry that they no longer have the mating value that they can attract these nasty guys that use women like specimen cups.

            It’s not that they really care about these women–they are just mad that they will never be with a man like that again (or for the first time for most of these feminists).

            Either way, the concern rings false. It’s just more wholesale demonization of the male sex drive. Sigh.

        • Jill said:
          “hey, I’m more than boobs and a vagina!”

          And yet THE MEN WHO SEE WOMEN AS PEOPLE are the ones women are PASSING OVER FOR SEX!

          Dysfunctionality breeds more dysfunctionality!

          PUA is a symptom, not the cause.

          • Not necessarily, John. The guys that PUA’s call “beta males” are just as capable of objectifying women! While the nice guys are pining after the hotties and watching porn and signing up for PUA classes so they can chase “10’s”, there are a lot of nice women sitting at home who would love a little male attention but can’t get it because they aren’t sufficiently “hot.” Are the nice guys asking any of them out? One of the PUA sites I looked at had a big ad at the top that said, “Never date ugly women again!” So apparently the problem isn’t that these guys can’t get women, they just think the women they can get are ugly. Is that the attitude of a guy who sees women as people?

            • Jill:
              Even a nice guy who wants a LTR and builds the skills to entice female attraction, is going to then screen based on the most desirable women–and there is nothing necessarily wrong with that. This is no different than women ALREADY screen men for their effed up criteria.

              Those women would have to settle for “low hanging fruit” class of men under any system of dating. At least when marriage meant something, these women would have been guaranteed of a life-long mate. All you have shown me is that today’s shark tank disadvantages both sexes.

            • there are a lot of nice women sitting at home who would love a little male attention but can’t get it because they’re sitting at home

              Fixed that for ya.

  17. SpudTater says:

    The problem with this letter is that it is written as if sex was easily had; as if college was a non-stop lovefest where men could choose to have sex by acting nicely, or choose to have sex by acting like a dick, and for some inexplicable reason they are opting for the latter.

    The truth of the matter is that very few men indeed have the confidence, attractiveness and social standing to have any great say in the women that are available to them or the manner in which they approach them. The men who “choose” to act like jerks almost always do so because they don’t know any other ways to get women to have sex with them. It’s desperation, not manipulation.

    That is not to say that nothing can be done to fix the harmful ways in which men are approaching women. Volumes can and have been written on the ways in which men seek out women for relationships or sex, but very little has been written from a gender-egalitarian standpoint. I welcome advice of this nature wholeheartedly, but I can’t help but feel that perhaps this advice should really come from a man; somebody who’s been there, done that, and knows the challenges men really face in their sexual lives.

    • Good point.
      Maybe the reason so many articles written by women tell men to cool their jets and say “hands off”, is because the passive sexual role WORKS for women to still acquire companionship.

      THAT DOESN’T WORK for men. And it’s time for women to start understanding that.
      I too would much rather see an article from the man’s point of view. Women have so many more options in dating that any article from a woman will most likely be deeply flawed.

      • Black Iris says:

        I think the other reason women tell men to cool their jets is because too often the women are being approached by guys they don’t want to have sex with or not that fast.

        • Iris, I was speaking specifically about the article. I dont think this womans advice to her brother is as good as it would be if it was written by a male family memeber. I wasnt talking about womens responses to being hit on as directed to the hittee, but generic dating advice women give to men. Womens dating advice is flawed because they dont know what it is like for men in the dating world

          • Sorry, iphone posting mishap. I’ve always wondered if men REALLY want women to take a more active role in initiating relationships. They say they do, but at the same time, many men don’t seem to like women who are too forward or aggressive. They might say “yes” to a sexual offer but they might not see that kind of woman as having much value. I’m not saying all men think that way but enough do that it is risky for women to pursue men too aggressively ( though certainly there are exceptions). Also, men fantasize about being pursued by beautiful women but they are disgusted by the idea of unattractive women hitting on them. I’m sure they wouldn’t want to deal with that — being the “chooser” is not that fun if most of the pursuers are people you’d rather not get to know, which is something women have to put up with.

            • Using that logic, no one should pursue anyone. It’s risky for men to pursue women too aggressively (though certainly there are exceptions). How is it that men pursuing women should just get used to rejection but women pursuing men and getting rejected means men don’t really want women to take a more active role in initiating relationships?

              And don’t het women also fantasize about being pursued by beautiful men and also get disgusted by the idea of unattractive men hitting on them?

            • Jill,
              I think I see what you mean.
              I once read a fantasy series of books w/a comedy spin called the myth adventure series by robert asprin. It’s a pretty funny series. One book involves a god-father organized crime society encountering an other-dimensional merlin society.

              One of the mob bosses has a moll (a female hired companion for sex –or sugar baby I guess you would call it). The way this character is portrayed is very suave. First: she has a phd in psychiatry. 2nd by perpetually acting in an over-sexualized manner: she never has to have sex. Men are intimidated by her. It’s a really funny series.

              I think you’re right in that a sizable chunk of men would be turned off by an exceptionally lewd and hound-doggish way of being hit on by a woman, or that they might accept a liaison, but would not think her marriage material.

              However, I think the vast majority of men would be flattered to have a civil approach from a woman. I’ve been approached a total of maybe 9 times in my life–and I can say it was very flattering every time–even when I told the woman no.

              Whether men want this to change or not is not the issue. A while back, you gave a fairly in-depth look at the very negative social consequences of a woman being shot down. I have to tell you that it was very eye-opening.

              However, I think most of the fears (you stated) are vastly overblown just as the fears timid guys have about approaching are overblown (the stereotypical movie scene in which a timid guy asks a woman out and she insults him & everybody turns to point and laugh).

              I think that the drive of even average women to only accept the approaches of men who have a much greater ability to be suave and charming even more THAN THE WOMAN HERSELF POSSESSES (i.e. even a tongue-tied nerd girl will only accept the approach of a suave charmer) is only setting women up for pumps and dumps by players, not searching for a soulmate. In fact, I would say this drive sets women up for more futureless casual sex (and being used) than IF SHE HAD APPROACHED a guy she liked.

              Back to your point: I think you are 100% wrong about men being disgusted by approaches from “ugly” women. Even quite successful men are not approached by women as much as even a 5 or 6 women is approached. You would be astonished by how seldom guys are approached, unless they climb to the upper tip of the pyramid.

              On balance, even a woman who has “no chance” with a particular man will be let down MUCH EASIER than an equivalent scenario of a man approaching “out of league” woman. Most men are flattered by female approaches, even if they are not interested or the woman has “no chance”.

              • Good points, John. It is unfortunate that sometimes women can be bitchy or curt when turning a guy down. Unfortunately I think this is often because they have learned that men will grab onto any sign of encouragement, even a smile and a friendly tone of voice, and not get the message, which only leads to more awkwardness and hurt feelings. Of course, some women are just bitchy by nature.

            • I’m in John’s camp on this one. I’ve probably been approached a couple dozen times in my lifetime, and only a small percentage of those times (maybe a half dozen times total) was I approached by someone who was attractive enough that I would have pursued HER given a change in circumstance. All six of these women got at least a date out of it, and I maintained lenghty relationships with at least three of them. I’m an attractive guy who regularly approaches other women and asks them out, and I still LOVE it when I’m approached by an attractive girl who isn’t falling down drunk.

              The truth is though that most moderately attractive women NEVER approach men. I know at least two girls who have active dating profiles on multiple sites, and they never send out messages, and barely respond to the ones they get, despite this being the least risky form of approach there is.

              I rarely ever give women a hard time for approaching me. If she’s rude or overly aggressive, there’s a fair chance I’ll be rude in return. I’m not necessarily rejecting her — I’m rejecting her rude approach. In most cases, especially with attractive women, I’ll let them know that I appreciate their advances because I’m intimately familiar with how much courage it takes to approach a stranger in any environment. I think this is important since it’s sincere, and it lets them know that it’ll be safe for them to help with moving things forward in the future.

              If women want better quality relationships, and better men in general, it would behoove them to learn two simple things: 1) Approach more and 2) Be nicer to the guys who do approach you whom you’re not interested. After dealing with the natural rejection that comes from doing the first, the second thing is all but guaranteed.

      • I’ve

  18. I don’t always agree with you, John D, but you make a lot of good points in this post. I can’t claim to speak for ALL women, just for what I’ve experienced and seen, which is how sites like this have to operate. Most people are coming here to get their own questions answered and to look at things from other people’s perspectives. They haven’t done exhaustive research on human behavior. I’ve said before–it’s human nature to have the chase be fun, especially when young, inexperienced, and not ready to settle down. So the PUA thing really might work with a lot of girls, but I’ve had it tried on me, and it’s been done very transparently. I actually had one guy who I later learned was studying PUA come up to me and say “everyone thinks you’re the hottest girl…I don’t think you’re THAT hot.” I gave a confused look and went on with my night. It always seem like the girls who fall for must be not that bright, too immature for a relationship anyways, or do it because they know the guy will be an easy lay (they know they can have sex with him without strings or attachment on either end). Learning not to pedestalize women and treat them as human beings with flaws is never bad advice, though.

    I want women to initiate more, and just because I’ve experienced it a lot in my life, doesn’t mean it happens everywhere to everyone. I do very seriously want to advocate getting rid of the idea that women don’t/shouldn’t want sex and are to be ‘won’ as a prize instead of sex being a two way thing, and the women being seen as human. “Be sexy, but don’t be slutty,” everyone tells you. Act sexual but don’t actually take what you want. You’re right. A lot of women are very thin skinned (we have fragile egos too) and the idea that all men want sex all the time from everyone ever makes the fear of rejection even more difficult, implying that if you do get rejected you must be monsterously hideous. On top of that, now you’re a slut, and now you’re cheap and easy because you don’t give a shit about if he pays for anything, buys you anything, or marries you. I don’t know how to change those misconceptions, and I hope that women can get just the f*** over it and initiate sex and dating more. A lot of that will come from women not treating each other poorly and calling each other misogynistic slurs (thanks, Tina Fey :)).

    Also, you said before that feminists pedestalize women. Maybe they have in your experience. I certainly don’t. Most of my friends are male, and while I hate being ‘that girl’, I do get along better with men. I prefer to live with male roommates because I’ve had less trouble them in the past. Most of my few female friends’ friends are also male. I’ve heard a lot of the stuff that’s talked about on this site from them. That’s why this site resonates with me and I don’t only go to feminist sites made for women by women. I’ve posted on how much I love men and the beautiful male form in all of its shapes, sizes, colors, and heights. Feminism does address issues of homophobia, transphobia, racism, classism, double standards geared towards men (like that they can’t be good caretakers). They can’t do everything, though, and it’s natural for us to lean more towards issues that affect us–such as birth control options, sexual assault geared towards women (we very freely admit that your average men go through it too, but do focus on disabled women, trans women, women of color, in wars, and prisoners), ‘corrective’ rapes and assaults against lesbians in S. Africa, policing of our clothing, etc… Let’s hope that this site continues to grow and address more issues that seriously affect men without devolving into some sort of ‘I hate women and this is why’ bitchfest.

    • Aya,
      As I’ve mentioned. I’m not actually a member of the PUA community. I’ve read a lot of their sights. I think that even an ethically responsible man could pick and choose from their webpages what to use.

      I also think that they have a lot to use without being anit-woman.

      Next: keep in mind that as with anything there are going to be men on the low end of the learning curve on PUA.

      As those involved with PUA grow their skills, they get a much more nuanced level of negging.

      It’s supposed to be about teasing, showing that you treat women like everybody else–while very subtly making sly points that you are the seeker rather than him. Another tactic is (and I forgot the acronym / specific term) is “taking yourself off the table” as a viable love interest of her (I think this would only work on more immature woman).

      Example of a neg: “Are you trying to get me drunk so you can have your way with me?”
      Example of taking yourself off the table: “I don’t think we would make a good couple at all, neither of us are the type of person to put up with shit”. This one is particularly good, because it compliments her, while removing yourself from the dating prospects. This will always add the spice of the forbidden fruit / don’t mess w/the fire or you’ll get burned concept.

  19. Mark:

    Here’s how I actually go about getting laid without falling into “jerkish” behaviors.

    1. Looks: Looks do matter A LOT to women — not as much as they do to men, but much more so than most women will lead you to believe. Get on a good workout plan (stronglifts 5×5, p90x, and crossfit are all good ones) and stick to it a minimum 5-6 hours per week. Learn about fashion — you don’t have to go crazy with this. I often have women tell me I’m the most fashionable guy they know, and I often go out with a plain-colored t-shirt, a nice, expensive pair of jeans, a leather jacket, some bracelets, and a pair of chelsea boots. The entire outfit costs less than $500, and all I have to do is switch out shirts and/or pants to create a different look. Whiten your teeth. Have a dentist do it if you can afford it. Expensive process, but gets immediate results. Make sure your personal hygiene is impeccable. I always have mints or sugarfree gum, chapstick, and a lighter on me, and a pair of condoms and a stick of deodorant in my car in case I run out and forget these things. Try on different hairstyles until you find one that works for you. These are basic things, but you’d be amazed how few guys do these things. It’s much easier to get laid if you look like a guy who gets laid.

    2. Money: If you’re passed the age of 30 and not holding down a job in 50k range or better, forget about getting laid and focus on your career first. Sure, there are plenty of guys in their 30s who are getting laid without this kind of income, but they often have careers or lifestyles that put them in direct contact with lots of women. Once you have the money, use it to buy experiences and develop a lifestyle. Don’t spend money on “stuff,” with these exceptions — hobbies, art, household basics, and better and more fashionable clothing. Avoid long-term debt like the plague. Unless you’re married with children, there’s very little reason to have a mortgage or multi-year car note in this economy.

    3. Hobbies and interests: Have at least one hobby that you can talk passionately at length about. This one is for you… so do whatever you want with it. Couple that with another hobby that has a high female interest or improves you physically. Yoga, rock-climbing, and running are great because they serve dual purposes here. Dabble in a variety of other hobbies just for the heck of it… this will give you a wide body of things to talk about when you’re interacting with women. Join a meet-up group (www.meetup.com). Go to where the women are. And don’t be afraid to ask them out on dates. Just don’t be the guy who asks every girl out on date. Wait for her to show some signs of interest before making a move, but move fast when she does.

    4. Social skills: The four most important social skills you can have are 1) the ability to tell great stories, 2) the ability to make people laugh at will, 3) the ability to connect with people emotionally, and 4) game (knowledge of specific skills and techniques for building and maintaining attraction). For as much flack as PUA techniques gets on sites like GMP, most of the guys I know who are good with women use very little of it. If you master the first three skills, the only thing you’ll need to add is the confidence to make the first move. You can simplify the whole thing with one simple line: “You seem like [x]… I’d really like to do [y] with you.” I.e., “You seem like a lot of fun, I’d really like to take you out with me,” “You seem like you’d be a great kisser… let’s find out if that’s true.” It sounds cheesy on paper, but say it with confidence and you’ll be pleasantly surprised with your results.

    5. Beliefs, attitude, and confidence: This is the most important piece, but also the hardest to master. If you want to get laid, you have to start believing that you’re the kind of guy who gets laid. The only real way to do that though is to become that guy. If you’ve never been that guy, then it will take you a while to get there, even after you start seeing some improvement in your results with women. Look at the four hours of work that I mentioned above, then start going to where women are and putting these things into practice. These things take time… you won’t become a lothario overnight. But the long-term results will be much more satisfying than dumping money into prostitutes and other unproductive pursuits.

    • Edit: “four hours of work (bullet point 5)” should read “four areas of work”

    • Black Iris says:

      This makes a lot of sense to me.

      Women do care about looks, especially if they’re looking for sex and not a relationship. Guys don’t have to do as much to look good as women, so you don’t have to be a hunk or know about fashion. You can probably go pretty far if you’re just neatly dressed and not overweight.

      Having a career and hobbies/interest make people more interesting to others.

  20. Mark Williams says:

    Okay let me put the question in a more direct and concrete way. Maybe people can answer that question.

    Just what precisely ARE the things that women consider asshole behavior with regard to men and sex?

    One reason I don’t know is that the statements about asshole male behavior are frequently vague and confusing..

    For example, the following statement is along the lines of one I have heard numerous times. I think that statements such as this might be the reason I feel nervous and cautious about initiating sex.

    The statement is: “He thinks I am easy, well he isn’t going to get into my pants!”

    But what does such a proclamation even mean? I could parse it in so many ways. Could it be that for such a person who would make such a remark that they are simply opposed to ANY form of casual sex and hence I should expect such a thing from that person? I don’t know. I don’t have a clue what “easy” even means.

    You know I am the sort of person that looks over one of Hugo Schwyzer article about how a man shouldn’t count a womans “number” and instinctively I already agree with thesis not because I need an explanation but because the idea that something as dumb and random as a “number” means anything is beyond me. Not being judgmental about such a thing seems like the logical and moral default.

    The above “statement” makes me feel uncomfortable initiating sex because it sounds like it could be applied to situations where I have been inclined to make a move. I don’t understand what “easy” means or why its bad.

    My question has a lot of nuance so when you answer it please stick around to discuss it as I will likely feel the need to clarify any misunderstandings.

    • I don’t know if I can completely answer your question but I often feared that a man who thought I was “easy” would not care about me as a person but would only see me as a booty call. I slept with a guy once when I was 22, a friend of a friend. It was the first time I ever had a one night stand. I was leaving for grad school in a week so it was kind of a fling. I felt a bit slutty afterwards but I left for school and did’t think about him much after that. Over a year later, he called me out of the blue (he got my number from our mutual friend) and wanted to see me. I met him for coffee and he almost immediately started to pressure me to go back to my place. Clearly he thought I was “easy” and that I would be eager to just hop in bed with him again after not seeing or hearing from him ONCE after that night we spent together. that was an asshole move, and I felt hurt and offended that he would have such a poor opinion of my character. I told him I didnt want to go back to my place but we could get together again, but he left in a huff and never called me. So, that’s the kind of thing I worry about. The whole experience left me feeling trashy.

      • Mark Williams says:

        Thank you Jill. I had wandered if “easy” meant “doesn’t care for me as a person.”

        Men are taught. (or at least I felt like I was taught) that making a move under the wrong circumstances is a BAD thing. But when I ask about what wrong circumstances are bad, it seems like people wont give me a clear answer about what those wrong circumstances are. So it makes me wander if my perception that I am being taught that it’s bad to make moves under certain circumstances is just all in my head. But certainly there are circumstances that do piss women off?

        Some women have said something along the lines of “I want a guy to at least get to know me before he tries to have sex with me.” That actually seems like it’s very clear and helpful, it just makes me wander how universal that opinion is and on the other hand what if the guy just got to know you with only sex in mind? If that is the case then I wish an understanding that was more along those lines was instilled in me at an earlier age.

        And what if a guy were to try to have a one night stand at a bar, and at the same time he seemed like he liked the woman?

        Is liking the woman the criteria that defines being a jerk from not being a jerk?

        (I don’t know why I feel like what defines being a jerk from not being a jerk is so obscure-maybe it isn’t but somehow I didn’t pick up on that social message)

        You wrote:
        “I don’t know if I can completely answer your question but I often feared that a man who thought I was “easy” would not care about me as a person but would only see me as a booty call”: That seems to suggest the idea that what defines the difference between being a

        I am trying to find resources on getting laid at the library and at bookstores throughout my town that would help me understand the underlying ethos better in a way that makes me more realistically assess how my sexual attempts will be perceived. However every book on that subject is from those PUA pamphlets and frankly I don’t trust a word that those books tell me.

        What I am told with clarity is that you can’t try to procure one-night-stands in bars without making some women angry. However not ALL women are angered by such a move. So if you want to not look like a jerk and get one night stands at bars you can’t, but that does not seem like it’s as bad to me because at least I know why I would be called a jerk because I know the parameters of social expectations at least with regard to that specific circumstance.

        However I don’t know why anyone would want a one-night-stand without contacting the person again because it seems like its polite and proper to at least make SOME kind of contact with a person you slept with afterwards if only to touch bases.

        While I have responded to Jill with this post anyone is free to respond and comment to make a discussion about this. Thank you.

        • Mark,

          I think to a great degree, a jerk is in the eye of the beholder. I think many guys perceive women pursuing men who they (the guys) perceive as being as being jerks, but it’s also important to realize that the women in question probably do not see it that way. They think the guy is fun, exciting, interesting, physically attractive, etc.; they may be impressed with his social status or money; they may see him as a challenge; they may be looking for a certain kind of guy who will be impressive to their peer group (a key factor most guys are totally unaware of); they may be rebelling against their parents by dating a bad boy; they may have low self esteem and are repeating bad relationships from their childhood; they may be lying to themselves about what this guy is really like (very common); they may have abysmally poor judgment… The list goes on. There are a lot of factors at play. Attraction is not simple.

          As to what makes a guy a “jerk” I suppose when you get right down to it, most people mean a combination of traits like aggressiveness, dishonesty and selfishness. For example, making a beautiful woman your girlfriend for purposes of sex and social status, rather than genuine affection for her, and then cheating on her would be jerky. (I think this is often what guys mean when they complain “women like jerks”). Unfortunately, traits like aggressiveness, dishonesty and selfishness in a person who is extroverted, socially astute and charming can seem like positive qualities such as confidence, street smarts and ambition. Women can blind themselves to a guy’s true nature very easily ( just as guys blind themselves to a woman’s negative qualities if they are attracted to her). You can see this in women who marry a guy they must know is a total hound dog (Tiger Woods, for ex.) then they are shocked when he cheats on them.

          Some of the PUA stuff I’ve read talks about learning t be total honest with women about your goals so there are no hurt feelings. In other words, if you only want casual sex then be upfront about only wanting casual sex, while convincing the woman that she will have a great time with you. If you are upfront in that way, some women will be offended but some will accept your offer. My issue with PUA techniques is I’m not sure how many guys get to the point of radical honesty. Instead they are using the techniques to create an illusion of connection and emotional rapport, like a good car salesman, trial lawyer or politician. That may work but it’s cruel. I read an article once by a woman who worked as a personal assistant for a PUA guru and she talked about seeing a lot of cruelty by the men in this guy’s PUA circle and a lot of emotional damage to the women who were PUA “targets” — women calling desperately in tears and so on. So I would say those guys are jerks.

          Finally, I know this post is getting long, but I would not necessarily think that a guy who hits on me and clearly wants sex is a jerk. I may be annoyed, or flattered, depending on the circumstances, but hitting on women is not in itself jerky. In my one night stand back when I was 22, I didn’t think the guy was a jerk for wanting sex. I didn’t really expect him to call (although it would have been nice). What was jerky was showing up a year later expecting immediate sex, and then being a jerk about it (leaving in a huff) when I wanted to get to reacquainted first.

          I think the trick to hitting on women is knowing when to play your cards. If you do it too soon, before you have made an emotional connection AND the woman is attracted to you, you will always get rejected. That is the mistake most guys make. Also, you need both the emotional connection and the attraction, if you only have one or the other, she won’t want sex. “Nice guys” end up with emotional connection but no attraction, while some physically attractive guys who think they are doing everything right will strike out because they hit on women before establishing that connection. Jerks who are charming can succeed at both. It is also possible to succeed at both without being a jerk — I.e. without sociopathic qualities (dishonesty, manipulation, selfishness). That’s the issue in a nutshell.

          • Some more thoughts on this– I don’t know if you watched the show “The Sopranos” but there is an interesting plot line in the 3rd season (I think) involving Tony Soprano’s daughter Meadow and her first year at Columbia University. The first two boyfriends she gets are both jerks in different ways. The characters on the show are always very nuanced (one reason it was such a good show) and it is interesting to ask why Meadow makes the choices she does. The first guy, Noah, is an arrogant asshole and not particularly good looking, but Meadow falls for him for several reasons. (1) Narcissism– Noah is an intellectual and an academic super achiever. Meadow sees herself as superior to the anti-intellectual New Jersey mafioso she grew up with, and dating Noah makes her feel smart. (2) Rebellion — Noah is half Black and half Jewish and that drives Tony Soprano crazy. So she gets to fight with her dad, call him a racist and feel superior. (3) Unwarranted idealization — Noah is incredibly self centered, but he goes out of his way (at first) to be kind to Meadow’s neurotic, emotionally needy roommate, in order to impress Meadow. Ultimately, Noah shows his true colors and abruptly dumps Meadow.

            Meadow’s second boyfriend,Jackie Jr., is the polar opposite of Noah. He’s the son of one of Tony’s mafia cohorts. He’s good looking and charming but dumb as a post. He’s selling drugs while lying about attending college and scheming to get involved in the family “business” (which Tony is trying to keep him out of). Let’s just say it ends badly. Why does Meadow fall for him? (1) Emotional connection – he understands her background, he’s charming and very affectionate. (2) Physical attraction – the guy is hunky! (3) Manipulation – Meadow thinks he’s a normal college student and she has no idea what’s really going on. He’s only using her to get close to Tony. (4) Rebound from Noah – here’s an unintellectual guy (unlike Noah) who her dad will approve of! Ironically, Tony knows exactly what’s going on with Jackie Jr., but he has to maintain a facade of a loving type of uncle. Meadow only finds out what Jackie Jr. Is really like when he gets pissed at her when she doesn’t want to have sex when she’s sick with the flu, and she catches him with a hooker later that evening. She breaks up with him but still moans that “he was really great” while lying in the college health center, sobbing with self pity.

            So those are two vignettes that show the various reasons women might have for falling for guys who are “jerks.” It’s a lot more complex that just saying “all women like jerks” or “only jerks get laid.” I guess my key point is that Meadow didn’t realize that Noah and Jackie Jr. were jerks, she thought they were great guys. And what she liked about them were the qualities that non-jerks can possess as easily as jerks do. You can be an ambitious intellectual without being a jerk; you can be a fun loving party boy without being a jerk; you can be genuinely kind to children and old people or your girlfriend’s neurotic roommate without being a jerk; you can be assertive about wanting sex without being a jerk. Etc.

          • Mark Williams says:

            That a lot of stuff about PUA techniques and why women want or seem to want jerks. For now, I am not interested in that subject.

            Some things I have picked up from what you wrote.
            1.
            “In other words, if you only want casual sex then be upfront about only wanting casual sex, while convincing the woman that she will have a great time with you.”

            – Yes, this is good!!! I guess the problem with being upfront is that you can’t be upfront too soon but then if aren’t upfront you are leading her on. The solution generally proposed to me is to not try to get to know girls with sex in mind but rather just get to know them and what happens happens, I guess.

            Right now I am asking this girl out for coffee and I am not sure what kind of relationship I want with her but sex IS on my mind and now I feel all weird about it. Like I am being a douche bag. I ask her for coffee and she said she was really tired from work she will call me back, and I don’t know if she will call me back but now I think I will call her back if she doesn’t call me around Thursday and ask her if she wants to go to Karaoke this Friday. And I feel weird about it because I did not know how to show sexual energy from the get go. I also don’t even know it it’s per se a date because it’s a neighbor I just met and I think it’s more of an “introduction” and hang out than a “date”. I feel all weird about doing this for sex but am I really “bad” or do I just not know how to communicate myself?

            2..” If you are upfront in that way, some women will be offended but some will accept your offer. ”

            Ok, Thank You!. I really need to know this one. The idea that some women are offended and some aren’t is important to me because,there here is this fear that if I do have a woman who is offended I should take it personally as something that is about ME rather than just how that particular woman perceives casual sex.

            3.”I would not necessarily think that a guy who hits on me and clearly wants sex is a jerk. I may be annoyed, or flattered, depending on the circumstances, but hitting on women is not in itself jerky. ”

            .Okay, this IS very helpful. Am I an idiot for growing up thinking that women are necessarily offended if a guy hit’s on them (okay if not an “idiot” – very out of touch)

            The only thing is I don’t know how to “hit on” a woman I just met in a subtle way that indicates “yeah it’s about sex though maybe more” but lets see how things work over coffee.”

            The other day I was at a bar and I was looking for sex but it had to be with the right person and it had to be mutual fun and not necessarily just for one night. So anyways my friend tells me to introduce myself to the two gals sitting next to me. I do and drop in the line “hello” yep “hello” and then this gal gives me the most nasty and melodramatic frown and then says “we already have boyfriend.”. It stuff like that that* gives me the impression that women do not like to be hit on at all because even the slightest and most subtle expression of the possibility of sex ***in my experience”**** makes women respond negatively, but I guess I am wrong? Huh. That is interesting? Anyways other people have told me that she was being a bitch.

            Thanks for the responses. 😉

            • 1.
              “In other words, if you only want casual sex then be upfront about only wanting casual sex, while convincing the woman that she will have a great time with you.”
              =========
              I think this needs more illumination. Disregarding large group scenes like parties or weddings (in which you should just be respectful–but don’t be afraid to maintain eye contact–the more beautiful, the more important it is to maintain eye contact).

              However, if you are in a club or on a date, then know this:
              Every women in the U.S. knows that the primary (not only but always in the top 3, and for most guys the #1) reason they go on a date or club is for sex with a woman.

              So, while you want to be respectful, DON’T BE A COWARD!
              You have to:
              A) maintain eye contact

              B) be jovial (when she asks what you do say something off-the-wall like you’re a professional shoe tier. This especially works well in large groups, it will make you the class nerd and will garner comradeship from every1)

              C) don’t be afraid to touch her in little ways: on the small of the back when entering a room/holding a door for her, on the thigh (whether skirt or pants) when making a point, the back of the neck (pretend to brush something off if necessary), caress her forearms.

              D) flirt, lightly tease her (about profession, clothes, whatever) I like the line for you to say to her “are you trying to get me drunk to have your way with me?” because it kind of switches the gender roles, and shakes things up.

              E) if the moment feels right (to kiss, or whatever) try. You’re better off to TRY and told you rushed things, then to not try.

              Women (especially the beautiful ones) KNOW you want to have sex with them.
              Let them know she can decide when the time is right, but she has to know that YOU ARE A SEXUAL MAN, and that SHE TURNS YOU ON.

              Typically if you fail to do this (no matter how much rapport you built) you will be stuck in the “friend zone” (on balance–there are always exceptions).

              Women want men who are AT EASE with women and who are NOT AFRAID to let women know what they want.

              In other words being up front DOES NOT MEAN saying “I just want sex, then see where we go from there” at any time during the first date (from the dept of duh, I guess but I thought it needed saying).

              Also, as I mentioned earlier up thread: enhance your non-sexual achievements/interests/hobbies.
              Go hang gliding, nature trail walking, cave spelunking. Take a public speaking class.

              Women like men who are at ease with both sexes.

            • Mark, John D’s comments are great. He’s right, women know if a guy is talking to them in a bar, he probably wants sex. It’s not a surprise. Don’t feel bad that you have sex on your mind, most people do (including women). Focus on talking to everyone and being friendly and having a good time no matter what the social situation. Women do want a guy who at ease with himself and her. Be friendly and casual.

              The woman in the bar who was rude to you sounds like a bitch. However, some women get hit on a lot and they get cranky and quickly push guys away because it’s just too much hassle. They are afraid of getting stuck talking to a guy who is annoying and won’t leave. They don’t know you, so they don’t know you will be annoying, it’s just their experience with 90% of the guys who approach them in bars. You are right that it wasn’t personal. Just move on and like I said, try to be friendly and casual with everyone.

              If you are shy then work on your social skills by getting involved in activities where you can practice socializing without the pressure of trying to meet women in a bar. Take ballroom dancing or sailing or cooking classes or whatever. Just get out and meet people and talk to them, guys, whether they are older women, women you aren’t attracted to, clerks at the store, everybody! It’s a learned skill.

              • Mark Williams says:

                John, I have to be frank and admit that I am very wary about touching a girl in a sexual way without her permission, although Jill seems to agree with your advice. I recently saw a PUA vid where it recommends that if you get a hard on to let her know by brushing it against her. That only seems sexy to my own perverted self, it’s unbelievable based on everything I know that that’s considered good advice. And yet their was an article that positively appraised them at Salon.com.

                Jill, you make it sound so simple and it’s almost if your too good to be true. I’ve talked to a lot other women on the internet about these questions and I haven’t gotten answers as clear as i’ve gotten from you.

                Can I ask you if you work for anything related to the PUA movement? Sorry if I am being suspicious but there are a lot of these boards and it seems like most of them having people working for those kinds of agencies .

                What made you interested in responding to my questions?

                A lot of those books for PUA get sold and I guess it’s a multimillion dollar industry.

                • Mark:
                  Jill ripped me up 1 side & down the other a few pages back (or maybe on a diff article). I’m actually fairly surprised she agreed with me.

                  (A lot of PUA do not involve manipulation, but rather how to carry yourself. Also most of PUA is useless unless you get out and try it. The difference between PUA’s and average men is not their success rate. It’s that PUA’s make DOZENS of approaches per week)

                  You need to build a good solid foundation of building your personal interests and building your speaking skills/comfortableness with speaking to both sexes alongside with any dating/relationship specific skills–they are part and parcel of the same thing.

                  Women like men who:
                  A) are relaxed and calm
                  B) are comfortable with themselves
                  C) are comfortable speaking to (and can command the attention of) both sexes and regale them with humorous or interesting stories
                  D) are not afraid to flirt and touch in minor ways

                  On the touching subject: WOAH! You need to slow the car before you crash.

                  When I say touch women: I am not talking about sexual touching. I am talking about building a rapport with personal touching.

                  I’m also not talking about putting any part of your genitals (clothed or not) on any part of them. I am also not talking about touching any part of her genitals/breasts.

                  I am talking about personal touching featherlight caresses on: the small of the back when she passes in front of you, her thigh/knee when you’re talking, brushing her hair out of her face, etc..

                  This is why you should try to sit at a round table on a 1st date–not square. Square table gives you two options: across (much harder to work intimate touching) and invading her personal space & giving both of you a crick in the neck. Round tables let’s you be close, while not squished together.

                  Also, if you are looking for a quality woman, don’t go to a club. Meet women at church, book of the month club, singles bowling, or at the book store.

                  Basically, women who go to clubs are at an age in their life (on average but not always) who are simply planning on using men’s sexual needs against them to score free drinks–they’re typically (again there are exceptions) not the more dependable type of women upon which to build a long term relationship (if that is your goal).

                  Also, women in clubs have (what are called in PUA jargon) their “b1tch shields” up and on full alert.

                  It’s actually better to approach women in other spaces.

                  If you go to citizen renegade, there is a weblink for an E-book on “day game” that sounds like it would be perfect for you.

                  You might have to page back 5 or 6 pages of articles. Also, I would look up Athol Kay’s relationship game. After you are involved for what will hopefully be a LTR, this sight is very nice for maintaining teasing & good dynamics.

                  Hope this helps.

                  • Jill was mad that I even mentioned PUA.

                  • Yeah I probably did jump all over you for it 🙂 although I don’t remember the specific comment now. Usually I get irritated when guys use PUA teachings to stereotype female behavior — “all women like X and all women do Y because of Z, end of story” — like PUA is the revealed gospel. For example, using PUA to “prove” that women like to mate with “alpha males” and reject “beta males” (whatever those are), hence men (supposedly) need to act like jerks to get laid. Which I don’t believe is true.

                • LOL, John is right, I actually don’t like a lot of the PUA stuff. They have some tidbits of good insights about how to approach women effectively, but 90% of what’s out there is really awful. There are some really questionable “gurus” and wannabe gurus trying to make a buck and a lot of bloggers and other idiots posting a lot of crap. Rub your hard-on against a woman? That’s a freakin’ terrible idea. Please don’t do that unless you have been making out for, I don’t know, at least 30 minutes, and she’s clearly into it. In casual conversation? Uh, no. That could get you arrested or at the very least, thrown out of the club.

                  I once read some of the more advanced PUA literature and at the highest level, it seems like more of a self-help/lifestyle movement along the line of Tony Robbins (for example). The big difference being that PUA focuses on the idea that sexual conquests are the key to general personal success and effectiveness, which is kind of odd when you think about it, but that’s what they are selling.

                  Anyway, most PUA’s and guys studying to be PUA’s are not at an advanced level. Many of them who blog and post comments on the topic seem to be very angry at women. A lot of men learn a few PUA tricks so they can, yes, be manipulative jerks and, I don’t know, get back at the cheerleaders who snubbed them in high school. I could probably go on quite a while here (like about their misuse of evolutionary psychology) but I will refrain. Maybe the biggest criticism most people would level is that PUA training is not that effective for most guys and it’s a waste of money.

                  That said, if you can use some PUA advice to improve your ability to interact with women WITHOUT being a jerk about it, then that’s a win-win. If you want to know what I mean by being a jerk, see my previous comments! 🙂

                  • Mark Williams says:

                    Well they were vague but I think they were referring to a dirty dancing situation at a club. Then it vaguely depends on how nasty the dancing maybe but they didnt make that clear so it sounded crazy

                    But according to this “guys ask girls” website page where a guy asks if brushing up a boner when dancing is okay nearly every girl seems to be stoked about a guys boner. I don’t get whats going on. Is this for real?

                    http://www.girlsaskguys.com/Sexuality-Questions/61180-if-a-guy-and-girl-are-flirting-touching-is-it-a.html.

                    “Rub your hard-on against a woman? That’s a freakin’ terrible idea. Please don’t do that unless you have been making out for, I don’t know, at least 30 minutes, and she’s clearly into it. In casual conversation? ”

                    This is actually more than I know so its good needed advice for me at least that its not bad brushing a boner after 30 minutes of making out . “Please don’t do that unless you have been making out for, I don’t know, at least 30 minutes, and she’s clearly into it. In casual conversation? Uh, no. That could get you arrested or at the very least, thrown out of the club.

                    Jesus Jill who are you then?! Lol seriously, your giving very straightforward advice,.You are in grad school? Is it some sort sort of feminist/women studies degree?

                    So how do you hit on a gal for sex while being subtle or not crude?

                    • Hi Mark, no I’m not an expert in feminism or woman’s studies, mostly I’m just speaking from my life experience. I’m 44 and I’ve got, well, just a few years of dating and being single and having relationships. 🙂 I went to clubs a lot with friends when I was in my 20’s although that is not my kind of scene now. A few years ago, I became single again after being in a relationship for 7 years and I was feeling really lost so I started reading stuff in the Internet and that’s how I discovered the PUA movement. I was kind of horrified, actually, and I ended up read a lot about it. I’ve had guys try to use PUA moves on me, even at my advanced age, LOL. That said, I know how tough it is to be single and how hard it is to find someone whether you are looking for a fling or a LTR. I know a lot of guys use PUA because they don’t know what else to do to approach women. I know what women can be like, and honestly, I find it hard to deal with other women sometimes. The super attractive cheerleader/alpha girls treated me like crap in high school too, because I was a girl nerd. I joke that I could never be a lesbian because women are too much work.

                      Anyway, on the dirty dancing thing, you have to be careful with that, most of the girls who posted comments on that link referred to being turned on when they are already feeling close and flirting with the guy. You have to read the situation.

                      Basically like I said earlier, if you have an emotional connection and the woman is attracted to you, then things are a lot different. The mistake men make is trying to get sexual before both of those things happen. I don’t think it matters so much how or what you say if you have an emotional connection and she’s attracted. Before that, whether you are subtle or overt, she won’t be interested. If you are too explicit she may get grossed out or offended and if you are too subtle she will just ignore your signals. So work on building an emotional connection and getting her to feel attracted first. Some of the useful stuff the PUA’s teach talks about reading body language and non-verbal cues, how to talk to women in a way that’s light and casual, how to judge accurately how she is responding etc. You can also learn much of the same stuff from non-PUA’s. A lot of what PUA’s do to create rapport and so on is the same kind of thing that has been taught in sales for decades. That’s where a lot of it comes from originally. The self help part of the PUA movement is based on NLP psychology.

                      Maybe you should think about hiring a personal dating coach — I have a friend who did that and thought it was helpful. Other than that, work on social skills by being involved in a lot of different activities and talking to everyone you meet.

                    • Mark:
                      First off:
                      If you’re under the impression you’re going to get sex with a woman with only 10 minutes of time, you’re in for a rude awakening. There are the odd stories about love/lust at first sight, but this is rare. It is EXTREMELY RARE for a woman to want to jump a man’s bones at first sight. Women are simply not into looks as much as men–therefore a man has to be in the 99th percentile of looks to pull this off, and it is only with about 5% of women who are most cued into looks. Looks is not the #1 BAROMETER of what makes a man do-able. I’m not even sure it’s in the top 3.

                      This means you will have to put in substantial time rapport-building no matter what the venue.

                      You have to build rapport. Women need to feel comfortable with the guy (#1), and she’s only going to want to bed you if you prove yourself a better class of man (#2).

                      PUA is about faking confidence (until your success with women builds real confidence) and building rapport, making the woman trust that you’re an examplary male worthy of her affections.

                      I have said a number of times: in addition to pickup skills, you need to be building life interests that make you an INTERESTING and NOTABLE person who others will raptly listen to your stories.

                      You need to be FIRST among both sexes (not necessarily a leader, but a person people don’t interrupt and disrespect). Women like men other men respect. Building good speaking skills, and rich interesting hobbies/interests will probably get you farther with women then PUA if (IF) you’re looking for a LTR.

                      The reason being is that if you don’t build up those other skills, you will essentially be a fraud. You’ll have pickup skills to make women think you’re an examplary person, but with no meat to back it up.

                      If you’re looking to score with lots of women in less serious dates and short relationships then you can probably learn most of what you want in PUA.

                      Just for the record: when I was talking about touching, I was talking about in public social touching. I’m of an older generation (mid 40’s) and tend to think of dating as DATES, or get-togethers from work at a place like Buffalo Wild Wings.

                      In any event, the touching I was talking about was public social. Not sex tricks (on the dance floor or in private). In truth when it comes to sex tricks, I wouldn’t know that many and from what I hear there is no universal knock-em dead sex trick because women are so different in sexuality.

                      As I mentioned, in addition to life interests and good speaking in general (which will help you in life dealing with both sexes and in general with success) when out with a women (in a social environment) the two most important things are:
                      Let her know you’re a sexual person (non vocally) w/eye contact & flirting/teasing, and let her know you find her attractive!

                      Respect is all and good, but if you DON’T DISPLAY AN INTEREST, then she will think she turns you off.

                      Men are burdened with not only approaching, but reading all the social cues just right. When in doubt–do it! If you suspect she’s ready for a kiss, then go for it. It’s better to try and be told to slow down, then to think you’re NOT INTERESTED!

                      You will not get women’s affections by “playing safe”. Why? Because that’s what all the other guys do and it makes you as attractive as a doorknob.

                  • Jill,
                    As far as PUA’s being angry at women–I think that’s somewhat true for the older men (40’s and up) who are divorced (1 or 2 times) and are mad at their exes. But, I think they are also mad at themselves.

                    From what I have seen on the boards, the older divorced members of PUA seem to be mad at themselves because if they had understood what makes a women feel attraction EARLIER, they might have saved their marriages.

                    Also, as you get deeper into PUA (whether you agree or disagree) there seems to be a lot of proof for the PUA rules about females engagement with men:
                    A) that as women have less need for financial support they have been freed from the need to make smart decisions in mates.

                    Many women in their 20’s will waste YEARS trying to convince a smooth-talking ahole (who has an inflated ego w/no accomplishments to back it up) who treats her like crap and cheats on her, over a respectful man with a strong work ethic who is “going places” in terms of a future. Many millions of women are thinking with their libido just as men do.

                    B) women’s attraction markers make no sense for her or her kids (when she lets PURELY ATTRACTION make her decisions). She will live with losers & their abuse and have his kids, but refuses to pass on the genes of a much superior (by all objective measures) male, because he can’t pass a few shit-tests.

                    The greater the % of women who make decisions based SOLELY upon attraction (and for each new generation of women in their 20’s it seems to be getting very high), the more PUA community is on the money when they talk about women being:

                    Loyal-less, alpha banging, beta-crushing (and cheating) narcissists.

                    I remember reading an article about a woman at a stadium at a minnesota stadium who had sex with a man in the men’s restroom. When the cops arrested both of them, she claimed he spiked her drink.
                    Her fiance (not the man she screwed) and friends vouched for her saying that she was a respected member of the church and community.

                    The simple fact is she saw a tatted-up bad-boy ex-con (or whatever) and was probably drunk and thought with only her libido.

                    The stark naked truth nobody wants to address is that:
                    A) unbridled female sexuality can be harmful too
                    B) it’s just as destructive to relationships, marriages and children to have women thinking with only their libido as it is for men.

                    And yet, in counter-point to the many narratives of rules and strictures for men, we have the TOTAL OPPOSITE narrative for women. Whatever feels right she should do. It’s even ensconced in popular culture that women can do wtf they want anytime they want (i.e. listen to “Bitch” by Alannis Morrisette).

                    A lot of these older men once or twice divorced I am sure are bitter, as their exes divorced them based solely on the “heat” leaking out of their marriage, despite the men complying with everything the wives wanted. I am sure they feel quite entitled to pump and dump women, if the vast majority of women (in their view) are ONLY about titillation, and are willing to use men and break their hearts to achieve that end–the fact that millions of women no longer value a “good man” entitles them to be bad too (just like women) to get what they want too.

                    The simple fact is men SHOULD STAND THEIR GROUND on bullsh1t. For evolutionary reasons, or culture or whatever, VERY NEARLY ALL women DO shit-test. The men who know this and pass with flying colors will save their marriages and relationships, and keep the heat kindled.

                    Also, the younger men are not angry. I believe they are smartly looking at their older male family members who are getting raked over the coals in divorce court (and losing contact with their kids), for no more reason than complying with their wives every nag and complaint (ensuring their wives loss of respect and loss of attraction). Nothing dries a vagina faster than a man who buckles like a belt to a woman’s tiniest whim.

                    The more of a ME ME ME culture we have (especially for women), the more accurate do PUA members become. But PUA is just a symptom–not the disease. Shaming PUA members isn’t going to stop the shark tank that american dating has become.

                    Reforming family court to be gender neutral (instead of mothers winning sole custody THIRTEEN TIMES AS OFTEN as fathers) would be a step in the right direction.
                    Anybody who wants to restore some normalcy and respect for women (from men) and respect for “good men”, should join onto fathersandfamilies email list and join their action campaigns when they release information by email.

                    • Well John, I don’t agree with everything you say but I agree we live in the Age of Narcissism. However, that is not the fault of women only or men only. I am old enough to be clutching my pearls occasionally about the “younger generation.” However, I would argue that sexual liberation of women and specifically “hookup culture” has benefitted men enormously by increasing opportunities for no-strings-attached sex, which would have been very very hard to find in previous generations (except maybe the late 1960’s). Plenty of men have certainly participated in and encouraged the creation of this culture we live in. Men control the majority of media and advertising which shapes a lot of our attitudes. The mainstreaming of the porn industry, which has created a generation of people steeped in explicit sexual imagery like none before in history, is largely controlled by men and fueled by dollars spent by men (for the most part).

                      Anyway it is a lot more complicated that women bad, men good, or men bad, women good. We are all participants in this culture. And our culture has become destructive to individuals on many levels. We’ve embraced absolute freedom of choice but we’ve forgotten how to make good decisions. We’ve allowed ourselves and out children to be brainwashed by mass media and advertising which is all about getting us to indulge ourselves and buy more stuff. I agree with you that women chasing “jerks” and men becoming PUA’s are symptoms of the same problems, although you and I might not agree on the specific causes or the solutions.

                      As for divorce laws, I agree, to the extent they favor women that is not right and should be changed.

                    • Mark Williams says:

                      First off I am not a jerk am I if I hit on a woman for sex and it’s obviously early because you know it’s the first 15 minutes? Because you say there is no way that is happening, okay I get it. (What about this coming Halloween when there are all those big Halloween parties coming up and everyone is dressing sexy?)

                      “Basically like I said earlier, if you have an emotional connection and the woman is attracted to you, then things are a lot different. The mistake men make is trying to get sexual before both of those things happen.”

                      But that gets into the whole paradox of leading somebody on right? If I hit on her right away it’s unlikely that I am going to be in the top 1 percent of ultra attractive charismatic guys where that works but can’t I let her know my intentions are basically sexual in a way that does work? Do you know what I am saying?

                    • Jill:
                      Elite men participated in the destruction of men. That is about 1% of all men. Coincidentally, these elite men are the same ones who stood to gain with lots of care-free sex.

                      It you look at the movie Kramer vs Kramer that movie was about no-fault divorce. That movie was about 20 years ahead of it’s time. No-fault divorce was one of the worst pieces of legislation to rock this nation. And yet, it got almost no fanfare. It swept in silently, and changed things for the worse.

                      Under no fault divorce a bored wife can wreck the marriage through cheating, and still expect the house, custody, the lions share of assets, and a continuous nearly life-long supply of money, and the fathers parental rights flow through her permission only.
                      All men did not participate in this change. Only a tiny fraction of 1% of elite men who stood to gain from this did.

                      However, millions upon millions of women TAKE ADVANTAGE of mother-friendly divorce laws every year.

                      The culture follows the law. If it weren’t for family break-down and the shakiness of marriage (largely thanks to mother-biased divorce laws & female fickleness) marriage wouldn’t be such a dim prospect that dating becomes a serious option for men until late 30’s.

                      A 46,000 divorce 4state study says women initiate divorces 66% more often than men. The top 3 reasons given were different flavors of saying they were bored and that they knew they would get custody.

                      PUA is not the cause, but the symptom. Even were they magically to disappear, it would not make men marry in great numbers or stop the stem of divorces or remove the shark tank dating has become.

                      All it would do is cause lots of men who still believe in the old-style dependable good man to go without female companionship.

                    • Mark:
                      At this point, we are getting into some really nitty gritty details that are really off-topic for this thread.

                      My advice:
                      Do the research I mentioned. Read the blogs, take a public speaking course, get some interesting hobbies/interests, etc..

                      Any advice given, may or may not work on the first women you try it on. I don’t want you to give up. Do the research. Invest in yourself (public speaking, interests, etc..).
                      If you want more advice, post your questions on citizen renegade. Often they are patient with newbies.

                    • Mark – I will be blunt, if you are only interested in getting to know a woman for sex, and you want a “yes” within the first 15 minutes, you would be better off hiring a prostitute. The number of women who would be interested in saying “yes” to a sexual offer within 15 minutes of meeting you is astronomically small. It is statistically improbable that you will ever meet that woman. You have to be prepared to put some time and work into it even if you only want sex. Some of the PUA’s talk about achieving sex within 7 hours after meeting a woman, and even they are rarely successful. You have to give the woman the idea that you are a sexual person and someone she’d like to get to know, while working on building rapport. As to HOW you do that, well I hate sounding like I’m schilling for PUA’s because as I’ve previously said, there is a lot about them I don’t like, but honestly that’s a lot of what they focus on — methods for creating rapport and attraction. Some of these methods are sneaky and manipulative and can be used in unethical and creepy ways (like a car salesman learning to sell someone an expensive car that’s more than they can really afford) but other techniques are just good advice for being a likable person and making fun and interesting conversation. Other than that, I don’t know what other advice to give you…. It is just not that easy to find women to have casual sex with. Women are pickier than men and they are simply not as motivated as men are to have sex with the first person who is available. Unless they get to know you a little, they won’t be interested.

                    • John – I think we will have to agree to disagree on a lot of what you say. One could argue that men benefitted from no fault divorce as much as women because now they can dump their wives when they get old and fat and replace them with younger women, which we all know men will do if they get a chance. Right? But that would be a gross oversimplification, just like saying that women are out having rampant sex and cheating and dumping their husbands is a gross oversimplification.

                      I don’t think you can blame all the ills of society on feminism or women’s equality or no fault divorce. Again, we will have to agree to disagree.

                    • Mark Williams says:

                      “I will be blunt, if you are only interested in getting to know a woman for sex, and you want a “yes” within the first 15 minutes, you would be better off hiring a prostitute. The number of women who would be interested in saying “yes” to a sexual offer within 15 minutes of meeting you is astronomically small. It is statistically improbable that you will ever meet that woman.”

                      Jill I didn’t really say I wanted to get to yes in 15 minutes. That would be good if it was possible though. I think I must have misstated something or a particular subtlety wasn’t conveyed. 15 minute is fast for a direct answer I totally agree based on my experience and everything I know that that isn’t going to work even in a bar situation, (not in 15 minutes!)but when I say “hit on somebody for sex” within 15 minutes what I meant was convey my sexual interest within 15 minutes. Besides weren’t you saying earlier that it was perfectly normal for guys in bars to be looking for sex? Do you see the subtle (but important) distinction? How do you do that? Or can you do that?

                      Words are confusing and I feel like were tripping over each other.

                      “It is just not that easy to find women to have casual sex with” – How can it be that hard when so many woman have casual sex? A study shows that 1/3 of relationships in Chicago are non-exclusive. Another study shows that half of all college students have had “friends with benefits” relationships. Hmmmm, not to get into an argument. I don’t know just pointing those things out.

                      A couple of weeks a girl came up to me while I was walking down the street outside a bar with a friend and me and the gal started making out right away with hardly any words to preface it (nothing hardcore-okay it was kissing on the lips) (I have pictures. I can prove it.) And that’s incident seemed to me like it was part of what’s called the “Hook up culture” -in other words it was no myth. But I could be wrong.

                      Thank you for your responses 🙂

                    • Mark, I think I misunderstood you, I thought you were asking if you could ask a woman for sex or tell you that you are interested in sex within 15 minutes. That seemed a little optimistic! So yes you need to give her the idea you are interested pretty quickly — that’s the art of flirting. 🙂

                      I do think it is tough to get casual sex. There may be a lot of women having sex, but you have to be the guy they want to have sex with. That’s the tough part, that’s the part you have to work at!

                      I’m not part of today’s hookup culture so I don’t know how it works. Things still may be easier now, I don’t know. I don’t think you can expect girls to fall in your lap every day. 🙂 But maybe on the upside, it is easier to find women who are willing hookup than it used to be. So you have reason for optimism. Just get out there and meet as many women as you can, whenever you can.

                    • Sorry, typing in my phone, meant to say you need to learn the art of flirting because that’s how you show interest in sex without coming out and saying it within 15 minutes.

                    • Mark Williams says:

                      Okay Jill so you flirt within the first 15 minutes to show an interest in casual sex? But I have to be psychic to know how to do that? John gave some advise about light touching. Is it the sort of thing where if I make compliments of a more physical nature?

                      So when I think you were saying strangers have hit on you for sex and you weren’t offended it was more like “suggestive flirting” than something more direct?

                    • Hi Mark, you have to read the situation, but yes, if you are interested in a woman you should probably start flirting right away and see how it goes. You are correct, when I mentioned earlier that I wasn’t offended by being hit on by strangers, I was mainly talking about suggestive flirting. No one has ever flat out asked for sex but guys have said things to me like, “Do you want to go someplace quieter than this with me?” or “I’m going home now, want to come with me?” etc. Once a guy asked me if I wanted to go sit in his van in the parking lot (I said no). I’m not sure how much specific advice I can give you about how to act in specific situations. You have to be able to read the cues. You don’t have to be a psychic but you have to be able to understand the signals that you are getting from the other person. Is she receptive to your advances or not? If not, then slow down, if yes, then you can proceed. When you are having a conversation with anyone, how do you tell if they are interested in what you are saying? It’s all body language, tone of voice, verbal responses etc. I think maybe a dating coach could help you come up with specific strategies, or maybe a dating skills class (not necessarily PUA) or a weekend singles seminar. I think you need to learn some strategies and then just start practicing.

                    • Mark Williams says:

                      Jill, When you wrote that men don’t ever ask for sex directly but instead say “want to come to my place” I did not know that for a long time. When men ask for advice on how to get laid some just mean very simple stuff like that and not the weirdly elaborate PUA schemes or their books full of philosophy and cheesy anecdotes but light on How-To.

                      What I don’t get is how you told me that casual sex is hard to come by and I guess you suggested a prostitute or maybe that was just for the “15 minute” bad idea. However when I look up prostitution on the net because I’ve thought about it (though the idea doesn’t exactly enthuse me for a number of reasons including experience) what I read from women is often something along the lines of “why would a guy ever go to a prostitute when there are so many women at bars giving it away for free” Are you disagreeing?

                      You know I just never knew until late that the house had such immediate sexual connotations. And it’s not hard to think why once you do become aware. The house just isn’t a safe place to be because of the threat of rape and as a result it becomes by default the place for sex and then a whole system of euphemism surrounds it.

                    • Hi again Mark, boy it’s complicated. I’m sorry if some ofnthe things I said sound inconsistent. Is it easier than it’s ever been for guys to get casual sex? Probably yes because the stigma for women has declined (although it hasn’t disappeared). But guys still have to work to get casual sex, that’s what I meant by it being tough. I just read an article that said according to some researchers, only about 20% of men and 20% of women on college campuses are actively participating in “hookup culture.” So if that’s accurate it means 80%of the women you meet are not the types that will easily have casual sex. And of the 20% who are left, you have to convince them to pick you. So I just don’t want you to think it’s easy and beat yourself up because women are jumping into bed with you! 🙂

                    • Jill:
                      One wrinkle:
                      I disagree that no fault divorce helped men in any way. When we had at-fault divorce the person who broke the marriage contract (through addiction, abuse, abandonment or adultery) got little assets and lost custody and if the primary breadwinner lost a sizable share of future earnings.

                      In other words a bored man (under past divorce laws) got punished.
                      With today’s divorce laws, the man gets punished whether at fault or not. In other words–a bored man divorcing achieves the same result under either law.

                      The difference is for women: With at-fault divorce law a wife divorcing due to boredom (or because SHE cheated) would have lost custody, gotten few assets and no child support (and probably greatly reduced alimony). But under today’s laws, women can divorce due to boredom OR because she cheated and receive MUCH BETTER outcomes than the past.

                      Where is this advantage for men that you mention? Please list exactly what this advantage is for men?

                    • Mark:
                      I forgot until now, but another aspect of PUA is called by the acronym IOI. It stands for indicators of interests.

                      PUA books and web pages have a list of IOI, that help clue men into what are cues to search for that the woman is “into you”.

                      According to what I have read, these cues are often subconscious on the womens part. They are not deliberate. This will help you get in the loop of her attraction level.

                      You seem to be worried about making “the move”.

                      My point is that if you spend your time with the hints I gave (and further hints from these other sources) like rapport building, you won’t have to worry about one super-important “move”.

                      You and her will be having fun and bonding and she will show an interest. You won’t have to worry about when to make “the move”.

                    • Jill:
                      Here is the link to that divorce study:
                      ht tp://www.livestrong.com/article/146100-why-do-women-initiate-divorce/

                      I strongly disagree with you about divorce. While this may sound bad of me to state: if women initiate 2/3’s of all divorces and state they are divorcing due to boredom & because they know they will get the kids (and considering that mothers DO get custody 13 times as often as fathers) this is important.

                      There is no reason these millions of mothers could not offer an olive branch to the fathers and agree to shared custody. I really believe that if divorce courts favored fathers the way they do mothers, a more generous portion of fathers would not take EVERYTHING THEY COULD GET under the law (when everybody admits the law is unjust). I think there would be a substantially larger segment of fathers who would volunteer to offer shared custody.

                      Men are raised to take care of women. Women are raised to be taken care of. But, now the culture says that women can use government as a bully by proxy to milk men, and keep their kids from the fathers.

                      There is VERY LITTLE NARRATIVE about moral compasses for women/mothers, or defining what a “good women” is. Quite clearly there needs to be. In fact, I think there is a much greater societal need to begin that dialog as opposed to the reams and reams of articles detailing what men need to do to be “good” or “usefull”.

                      The overwhelming narrative for women is she can do whatever the eff she wants the consequences be damned.
                      This is damaging to fathers, but it is MUCH MORE DAMAGING to children.

                      There are hundreds of studies which show children raised in fatherless homes do much more poorly in a number of areas.

                      There is a reason many more young men are choosing to be life-long adolescents. The idea of being a father and husband have literally been stolen by millions of fickle heartless women and their toadies in family court.

                      Marriage is now such a landmine for men, that younger generations of men are now wising up. They are also beginning to have a very mercenary view of women. Younger generations of men don’t feel obligated to do anything for women, because they are reflecting the vibe women have been giving them.

                      It’s all very sad. It’s bad for women, bad for men, (and both sexes are being predated upon by heartless lovers) and particularly bad for children.

                    • John, I’ve seen that study cited a lot as “proof” that women divorce for frivolous reasons (“I’ve outgrown”). There are other studies out there. According to this one h ttp://www.smartmarriages.com/ams.pdf, the most common reasons for divorce cited by women were lack of commitment, too much conflict and arguing, infidelity, lack of equality, and married too young. The most common reasons cited by men were lack of commitment, too much conflict and arguing, infidelity, unrealistic expectations and married too young. In other words, the reasons are pretty similar. Respondents could give more than one reason: women cited 5 reasons on average, men cited 4. Women were much more likely to report infidelity (almost 60%) than men (around 47%) (unfortunately there is only a bar graph without the actual numbers). Over 40% of women and about 9% of men cited domestic violence.

                      The thing I’d, social surveys often have varying results and you cant’t just pick one survey.

                      The study was done by the National Fatherhood Initiative. The reasons for divorce chart is on page 23. Note it looks like the captions for the 2 charts on that page are reversed.

                    • Hey Jill.

                      That link didn’t work.

                    • Sorry, this is the link http://www.smartmarriages.com/nms.pdf

                    • Hey Jill.
                      I don’t think this marriage study is stating what you think about divorce.
                      The only graph I can see which states a male & female bars for infidelity is actually titled:
                      Extent to Which Other Stated Reasons for Divorce
                      Predict Saying That Domestic Violence Was a Major Reason

                      In other words it has to do with predictors of DV being stated as a major reason based on the other reasons given–not upon the percentage of incidence of infidelity.
                      (Not to mention that simply stating Infidelity could be one on either party).

                      In addition if you look at the Last sentence of the First paragraph on page 23 it states:

                      “Only four women, less than two percent of all ever-divorced female
                      respondents, gave domestic violence as the only reason for their
                      divorce.”

                      If four women are 2% of the female divorced respondents that’s only 200 women. Additionally, this doesn’t tell us the reasons women seek divorce because this will include some women who’s HUSBANDS seeked the divorce.

                      Sorry, but this doesn’t work. The study I referenced was 46,000 divorces and referenced the reasons WOMEN sought divorces, not why they had divorces inflicted upon them.

                      I am going with the 46,000 respondent survey. Also, in the marriage survey you linked some 70% of respondents thought that marriage should be harder to end.

                      I’m sorry, but the simple fact is PUA has grown out of the destruction of marriage. To find the cause, you only have to see that the state has set itself up as competition to husbands (whether welfare, or insuring women’s good outcome of divorce even when she destroyed the marriage).
                      It seems women have bought into these new laws hook, line and sinker.

                      What we need is a double-barreled does of reform so the state no longer insulates women from their actions (i.e. treats women like adults just as we do men).

                      When we have that, we will have not only equality, but PUA will be a thing of the past.

                    • The tables are confusing because they have the captions reversed. The 2nd table on that page shows the percentage or respondents who gave different reasons for divorce. 40% of women gave DV as one of several reasons.

                      My point is that it is very easy to find studies and surveys that support any view you want. Finding that other study took me all of 45 seconds on Google. I’m sure there are thousands of studies on the causes of divorce. You should’ rely on any one synopsis of any one study as “proof” of anything.

                      In the study you cite, some lawyers looked at 46,000 divorce records. It wasn’t a survey as far as I can tell. Did they get the causes of divorce solely from things people said in their legal papers? How accurate is that? Keep in mind those papers are usually written by lawyers. If there was a survey component, was it a scientific survey? How did they select participants? And so on. I don’t know the answers but those are questions I’d want answers to in deciding whether the results are valid.

                    • Jill, the bar graph doesn’t state what you claimed.
                      Also:
                      * it’s not a study of why women initiate divorce, but a study of all divorces. i.e. many of these women had divorce initiated upon them
                      * the sample size of female divorcees was only 200
                      * since this is a study of 200 women divorced (including ex-hubby initiating) infidelity could mean cheating by either spouse, so even if the titles are switched this 70% infidelity rate means nothing to identify the rate women are CHEATED UPON

                      You stood this article up as a refutation of the study I linked that shows women call it quits in marriage for almost no reason. (The article I linked is the largest study EVER done of why women initiate–i.e. I didn’t fish for what I wanted to show).

                      As it stands, your linked study doesn’t refute anything. If you have something better please list it. Beliefs should be molded around objective reality. I’m not going to say you’re wrong necessarily because you want to believe whatever you want about divorce, but I would say that your beliefs should be shaped by objective reality.

                      On these forums I rarely post something I believe that aren’t backed up by evidence. And when I find something evidence-based that contradicts what I believe, I usually admit that I am wrong or that I have to hit the books again.

                    • John, I’m not going to argue with you about the validity of one study vs. another, I really have no idea. I told you I spent 45 seconds on Google, I’m not writing a thesis on this. As I said, there are a lot of studies out there. The study YOU keep citing is actually synopsis, posted on a website, which has very little information about the actual study, except that it apparently involved a bunch of lawyers looking at divorce filings. I can’t tell from that how they reached their conclusions or whether their conclusions are valid, or whether the website is even reporting their findings accurately. Social science is a fuzzy science at best and you can poke holes in any one study. You are cherry picking one study and citing it as gospel. Sorry, I’m not buying.

                    • Hey Jill:
                      If finding evidence to support your beliefs is only worth a maximum of 45 seconds, that’s your personal choice.

                      Here is the actual study reported on in the livestrong.com article.

                      Just some ideas:
                      Just because something is unpalatable doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. It may be a craptastic message that the majority of this whole sh*tty ball of wax (the shark tank of dating and instability of marriage) can be laid to fickle women availing themselves of the intense female advantage in family courts but that doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

                      I think we’re raising our girls and boys in dysfunctional ways, but PARTICULARLY SO for girls. There are reams and reams of commentary about “a good man”. Our popular culture is overflowing with it: songs like “I’m holding out for a hero” and “Are you strong enough to be my man?”
                      Man up, be a real man, be a good man.

                      When have you ever heard of a comparable monologue about morality in women? When have society ever uttered the words “good woman” or “real woman”?

                      The message to men is to make themselves USEFUL. The message for women is that you can do whatever you want, the consequences be damned.

                      Is it really so unbelievable that when we raise women to be self-centered and to not be concerned about consequences that they stand up and deliver?

                      One of feminism’s battle cries is that women are shaped by modern media message (like telling girls they suck at math becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy).

                      It’s time to start a conversation about “good women”. Things are reaching a critical mass, and we society can’t take much more of the kinds of injustices being inflicted upon fathers and children.

                    • ht tp://www.unc.edu/courses/2006fall/econ/586/001/Readings/Brinig.pd f

  21. Dear Lord, the good men project is devolving into some misandric nonsense. At least post another “letter” that tells women to control THEIR primal urges NOT to sleep with “jerks” no? Not just two sentences on how “women can be manipulative too!”? Or does that not merit a full article?

  22. Mark Williams says:

    Colin your advice just isn’t the route for me. Prostitution is just too impersonal for me to get any enjoyment out. I have tried that route and it doesn’t work for me, but Thank You.

    So again here is my question for somebody helpful ton answer:

    This article does not fully tell you what not to do to be called a “jerk”. For one thing manipulation is not the only “jerk” move at least as I understand it, there are another of other ways that men get called jerks.

    One reason that men ask about how to get laid without being a jerk is that they fear missing out on an opportunity to have sex (which is a good thing in my opinion!) just because of misplaced fears. When I was growing up I was taught that all women were offended if the guy wasn’t in love with the gal. Now that might seem like an incorrect belief to you but it what I was taught.So If that’s not true what’s the real truth then? Can’t anybody tell me?

    Of course many people will say “just be honest” that’s what is socially acceptable, and maybe it is but like I don’t think that’s the entire truth. Could it be that there is a lot more than one opinion among women about what find offensive if so then please say that. because that is something that isn’t ever said as strange as that is. How about a how to get laid without being a jerk essay that says something like your inevitably going to be called a jerk because that’s life?

    I am asking somebody empathetic to please discuss with me? I don’t know what it is so hard to get a decent and clarifying answer.

    Do you understand my question?

    • Mark,

      Why are you spending so much time and energy worrying about a problem that you don’t have?

      Being called a jerk isn’t a life sentence. What some people find egregious and offensive, others find funny and interesting. You can’t control for every variable. Quit looking to other people to decide what’s acceptable behavior for you.

      I have my own personal code of ethics when it comes to sex and women — and I stick to it. For me, it’s 1) Don’t lie or deceive, 2) Don’t force anyone to do anything against their will, and 3) Be honest and direct with my intentions. That’s enough to keep me out of trouble 99% of the time. The other 1% I will look at what happened, decide who’s in the right or wrong (from my perspective) and either apologize if I’m in the wrong or move on if they’re in the wrong.

      People are unique and varied individuals. Very few behaviors are considered universally good or bad. You really can’t know what sexual advances a woman will respond to until you actually try to have sex with her. Some women get bored with guys who don’t aggressively pursue them, for others, aggressive pursuit is a major turn-off. The only way to know for sure is to try. Try everything… figure out what works for you and the type of women you’re most interested in. Then capitalize on your success.

      • Mark Williams says:

        Thank you. You are right. You are saying a lot of things that I wish more people would say. Not every women has the same criteria over what they think makes a guy a jerk.

        (Aggressive pursuit isn’t the same thing as getting a person in bed for casual sex at least as I see it-why does everyone seem to equate having sex with having a relationship? According to some people if you want to take a girl you are having sex with to the movies and other stuff then you are in a relationship-I just don’t get it. Doesn’t a relationship have to do with the feeling you have for a person rather than what you are doing with them)

        • Mark, as you’re seeing, no one (at least, no one female) can answer your question. No one can tell you “how to get laid,” despite the article title that promises exactly that.

          All they can do is tell you what NOT to do–specifically, a long list of complaints about things that guys do that make them jerks. NO ONE will ever tell you specific, positive steps you can take to actually GET LAID; they will only deliver a lot of “don’ts” that tell you nothing.

          The most frustrating are the ones who tell you things that you already know, through experience, DON’T WORK. Things like “be yourself, be honest, don’t go looking for sex in the first place, be nice and considerate”… all the stuff women SAY over and over that they want, but they don’t actually MEAN. It’s a frustrating situation to be in, and it comes with the Y chromosome.

          I don’t have any helpful tips for you either, Mark. Sorry. Only this particular exchange has had anything useful at all, and that boils down to “get over your fear of rejection and get out there dating as much as possible.” You’ll still get rejected– a LOT. And it will hurt–a LOT. But there’s no other way as long as the Mating Game rules are still in effect.

  23. Mark Williams says:

    This article does not fully tell you what not to do to be called a “jerk”. For one thing manipulation is not the only “jerk” move at least as I understand it, there are another of other ways that men get called jerks.

    One reason that men ask about how to get laid without being a jerk is that they fear missing out on an opportunity to have sex (which is a good thing in my opinion!) just because of misplaced fears. When I was growing up I was taught that all women were offended if the guy wasn’t in love with the gal. Now that might seem like an incorrect belief to you but it what I was taught.So If that’s not true what’s the real truth then? Can’t anybody tell me?

    Of course many people will say “just be honest” that’s what is socially acceptable, and maybe it is but like I don’t think that’s the entire truth. Could it be that there is a lot more than one opinion among women about what find offensive if so then please say that. because that is something that isn’t ever said as strange as that is. How about a how to get laid without being a jerk essay that says something like your inevitably going to be called a jerk because that’s life?

    I am asking somebody empathetic to please discuss with me? I don’t know what it is so hard to get a decent and clarifying answer. If I was socially active and wasn’t so isolated I would already know and i’d probably be just as unemphatic as many of you are being. I would just say oh your just being whatever….just get laid.

    Could perhaps a lot of the whole thing about being “too nice” and not being able to get laid is that being “too nice” you make assumptions about how to interact with women sexually that simply aren’t true?

    Do you understand my question?

    • Mark,
      While I appreciate that women are posting on this, I think one wrinkle is this:
      Individual women are on here posting and saying “this is what all women want”.

      The thing is, no individual women can come on here and post what “all women want”. I can’t come on here and post “what all men want”. Because I don’t know.

      Here’s my main beef with what a lot of women on here are posting: They CLAIM they don’t want jerks, however they don’t seem very concerned with the REALITY that MANY MANY women in their 20’s (which is really what most of the dating world consists of for men & women) are very immature (just as men are).

      The simple fact is that, a VERY LARGE portion of women DO go for jerks. They confuse assholishness with confidence. Which is only expected. People on here may claim it’s a stereotype, but there are some valid concrete reasons why the stereotype of the jerk-desiring women exist.

      This is especially pronounced among very beautiful women. Any man who treats a very beautiful woman like she’s special (or even kids her that she’s not good enough for him) will be approaching her with a much stronger position than all of the idolizing men before you who have put her on a pedestal. The simple reason is due to novelty.

      Her beauty commands a lot of fear and worship from men. Simple logic of the human equation says this will get very boring very quickly. A man who treats her like a normal person will give her some novelty. Even, if she turns him down–odds are she will do so in a kind way and continue thinking about him A LOT.

      While the advice to be confident is correct, it doesn’t really instruct you how. Maybe the solution is to get a life-coach, or take a class on public speaking so you become more natural.

      It may even be worth-while to take a class on dating. They’re very expensive, but considering how wretched some of these guys sound over love & relationships it might be money well spent.

      But do you due diligence. Don’t just pick one out of a phone book. Research any group you are thinking about paying. It may be worthwhile to invest in some dating books. If dating is important to you and you’re not doing it well, then act like it’s important and work to fix it, rather than just cry and moan about the world being unfair (not that the world isn’t–but you have to play the best hand you’re dealt).

      Unfortunately, despite repeated claims for equality women will not let go of the time-worn classic of making men perform advances. For all their talk about the fragile male ego, it is women who are much too thin-skinned to ever face rejection–and that’s just the world we live in.

      • Typo:
        Any man who treats a beautiful women likes she’s NOTHING SPECIAL

        • Mark Williams says:

          I appreciate what you have to say here. And I think that women who make the claim that ALL women are such and such are obviously wrong……

          However I am asking a very different question than you are responding to….

          My question is about how to go about getting laid without being a jerk. I want someone to answer my question. To me it’s an urgent and important question.

          Would somebody please read my above post and begin an intelligent discussion with me that does not involve condescension or a lecture ( for that matter venting about how frustrating their experiences have been with the opposite sex)?

          • wet_suit_one says:

            Mark my man, I’ll give you the same advice that I gave Colin. Pay for it. This assumes of course that you’re not in a jurisdiction where paying for it is illegal. It isn’t where I’m at.

            The transaction is brutally honest. No one has any illusions on either side (unlike many other such liasons obtained in a conventional manner). Treat each other with respect and dignity and have a whale of a time.

            If that’s not what you want, and who does over the long term really, hear me out. You want to obtain sex without being a jerk. The prostitution route gets you there. If you want to find a relationship and have sex, go on a ton of first dates (real easy on Plenty of Fish), and have sex with pros in the meantime. Until you find a woman worth your time to have an actual relationship with and have sex with (be picky, no point in jumping into anything too serious too soon after all. Remember, you’re not desperate because you’re getting laid).

            It’s not generally socially sancitoned, but it does get you over the sex hump. If you are as I was (namely a 32 year old virgin, which is uncomfortably close to a 40 year virgin), it’s a reasonable and fair route. Make sure that your pro is doing it of her own free will (i.e. no one straight out of a crack shack or off the streets. There are thousands and thousands of them so it’s not that hard, but be a decent man about it and don’t pay $40 to some sex slave because you’re a cheap douchebag. Pros are pros and deserve to be paid accordingly).

            Yeah and be sure to get tested and all the blah blah blah that goes along with having sex with people who’s medical history you don’t know (which is like everyone in the world including your mother and father) and play safe.

            Get all your fantasies out of the way (now is the time to have sex with the hottest possible woman you can lay your hands on! You’ll love it, I sure did!) while you look for a woman who’s actually in your league and has more going for her than her sex appeal and willingness to have sex with you for money.

            Learn as much as you can about pleasing women sexually while you’re at it too. Pros will be happy to let you know (real pros anyways, some pros aren’t so pro in that area). Ask questions the same way you’d ask questions of a lawyer or doctor assuming you didn’t have to pay them for their time.

            And date! Seriously DATE! Go out on every date you possibly can with whoever will say yes to you (which is pretty easy on Plenty of Fish if you’re serious about it). Yeah, you’ll waste a lot of evenings with women you would rather not spend time with, but you’ll get a full measure of the diversity of people out there, andyou’ll have some fun (see lists of what to do for dates and just go through the whole dang list. There’s tons of stuff you would never otherwise do if you weren’t doing this). You’ll build some confidence (between the sheets and in dating) because you’ll have what you lack: EXPERIENCE. Pay attention to what you’re doing right or wrong on dates and fix those problems. It’s much like riding a bike. You’ll fall off a bunch but eventually you’ll become proficient at it (even if you’re not winning the Tour de France). Yeah, it’ll cost money, but them’s the breaks. College wasn’t free either so deal with it!

            Need anything else?

            Also ignore the haters. It’s your life. Live it.

            While you may reject my recommendation, you will eventually have sex without having to pay for it. If you go on 60- 70 first dates (like I did), believe it or not, you will actually get laid for free from time to time (even if it’s not in a serious relationship). It really does happen. But until you go on all those dates (and it’s a numbers game because you’re a guy), it ain’t gonna. Just do it.

            If you’re getting shot down too much on POF, remember this. Make a great profile (they provide you with tips and hints on how to do this to attract women) and let the women come to you. Any woman who writes you or even just looks at your profile (you can do this), hit them up and say hi. Then ask them out for coffee, a drink, lunch, dinner, whatever. And do it day after day after day.

            Don’t care if you get shot down (you will repeatedly). Don’t care if she’s a flake (you’ll meet many). Don’t care that all kinds of great seeming fish will get away (they will and there will be more). Just go out and date. Date everyone who will say yes. Don’t descriminate because you don’t actually know what you like until you know and everyone is different. Some larger women are the BOMB and you don’t know until you’ve tried it.

            This route resulted in me having one of the best times of my life. I had sex with gorgeous women totally out of my league. I got to indulge in most of my sexual fantasies (including having sex with a Lara Croft look alike! Seriously, it was that good!).

            I got to meet women from all walks of life (a major in the army who drove a ferrari, an online porn model, a crystalogist (yeah she was a flake, but whatever), an executive at a big company who just had a child, a world class musician who worked with Pavarotti, a suicidal depressive who had the worst childhood imaginable, a philosopher who took a job as a security guard so she could study quantum mechanics (some of the best conversations EVER!!!!), an environmental activist (that was a street pick-up, which is one of my prouder moments as it was a date finagled through a 10 minute discussion about the environment with a complete stranger. Total SCORE!!!! Didn’t go anywhere, but whatever), a medical student, and on and on and on.

            It’s that easy, but I”m telling you. Just do it. What do you have to lose? Some money? Pah! What is money without women? Useless!

            Get it done and live your life.

            The Wet One

          • wet_suit_one says:

            Oh yeah, I also got to have sex with a couple of bodybuilders (definitely worth your time. Check it out). Hair models, hand models, women of every ethnicity and race. Women of different sizes (in every department too).

            And best of all, I met my sweet love through this process. Hands down the finest woman I’ve ever met. For her, I’ve given all that racket up and now I enjoy happiness in her company. Ah… The good life. It’s there for you Mark if you’ll reach out and take it!

            The Wet One.

          • I would take a public speaking course. Maybe get a life coach (much different than a therapist. A life coach will help you set goals to help you grow as a person and give you good advice on how to achieve them)

            Start finding some interests that you like. Next year I plan on taking up hang-gliding.

            Their are fun things to do in each state that don’t require athleticism: like cave spelunking or trail walking. You can join a singles trail walkers group, or singles bowling.

            You could look up PUA websights. The best one I have seen is Citizen Renegade.
            Just type that into the web-search. You can take whichever tips or suggestions you are comfortable with.
            There is also a technique called Kino, which involves light touches to women’s thighs or small of her back, brushing her bangs away, etc.. that are proven to work.

            But, don’t just concentrate on picking up women. Concentrate on developing interests that mark you a novelty/top tier quality interesting person, so people will have interests in your stories. Develop your speaking skills etc..

            I hope that’s a good base.

  24. Black Iris says:

    Great article. This should be handed out in sex ed classes in high school.

  25. Another fantastic post, Emily, thanks for brightening up my day with some intelligent opinions on sex.

  26. And it’s possible to change. It’s not really a change of ‘values’ to feel like you’re ready for a serious relationship, just a different stage in life, and it happens to both men and women. Sometimes it never happens and you’re happy just sleeping around, which is great. Your moral system doesn’t have to change for you to decide you’re bored with bars, the chase, and want something more stable. You can still high 5 your buddies who do chase ass. I had a male friend who slept with every woman and man who crossed his path during college. Now he’s been happily married for 4 years to an intelligent, gorgeous woman, has a beautiful baby boy, seems completely happy, and doesn’t have any regrets. I have another friend who always thought that he wanted a soulmate and monogamy, then started to get regularly laid and confided to me that now he just can’t stay faithful to one person. As his friend, I had already seen that he was headed that way and could see that despite the way he’d been before, he had changed his tune. He’s still a very good guy. Both guys would be considered ‘1st tier’ by people here, but neither is anywhere near a jerk.

    • “How about, no you ran your legs off in chase of the men who made my life a living hell, when we were young. But now when 8of10 makes boatloads of money and has lost all of his overweight, and you have lost your capital in the meat market, then suddenly I am supposed to feel sorry for you that I remember you previous actions and don’t want to deal with you.”
      How about, if you’re THAT bitter, angry, and self righteous, why the hell would I WANT to deal with you? How could being with someone like that possibly make for a healthy relationship? I could never want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t want to be with me. What’s the point of it? Despite requiring compromise and the presence of jealousy or frustration, a relationship is meant to make both/all parties happy. Also, I don’t care if you’re fat (my first serious boyfriend was 250 lbs and I had become the hottest girl on campus)….I do admit that there would be a problem if you were seriously obese and I had to deal with getting you out of the door or having to buy 2 plane tickets for you instead of 1. I don’t care if you make money (No one I’ve ever seriously dated has made any money, I don’t care about jewelry, and I don’t mind paying for/splitting bills. If a guy with whom I had a casual encounter did have money, I wouldn’t want to know or care, since I’m only trying to have fun, and gifts would make things weird and awkward). Your weight loss and money don’t make you a fun guy to be around or a good/caring boyfriend or friend. It doesn’t even make you a good lay. If you really think that it does, you’re pretty shallow.

      • “And it’s possible to change. It’s not really a change of ‘values’ to feel like you’re ready for a serious relationship, just a different stage in life, and it happens to both men and women. ”
        Newspeak. Changing the wording, doesn’t change the facts.

        “Sometimes it never happens and you’re happy just sleeping around, which is great. Your moral system doesn’t have to change for you to decide you’re bored with bars, the chase, and want something more stable. You can still high 5 your buddies who do chase ass.”
        You high five them because you wish you still had that kind of value on the meat market.

        “I had a male friend who slept with every woman and man who crossed his path during college. Now he’s been happily married for 4 years to an intelligent, gorgeous woman, has a beautiful baby boy, seems completely happy, and doesn’t have any regrets.”
        Wait until he starts balding, gains weight and gets laid off. See what his wife will do to him then.

        “I have another friend who always thought that he wanted a soulmate and monogamy, then started to get regularly laid and confided to me that now he just can’t stay faithful to one person. As his friend, I had already seen that he was headed that way and could see that despite the way he’d been before, he had changed his tune. He’s still a very good guy. Both guys would be considered ’1st tier’ by people here, but neither is anywhere near a jerk.”

        That was not what was meant by 1:st tier, and you are very well aware of that.

        “How about, if you’re THAT bitter, angry, and self righteous, why the hell would I WANT to deal with you?”
        You don’t, please leave me alone. But don’t complain that men only want younger better looking women when you lose your looks and your value in the meat market.

        “How could being with someone like that possibly make for a healthy relationship? I could never want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t want to be with me. What’s the point of it?”
        As above, this has never been the question. The question was why suddenly when the people who had no value, suddenly gain value they are supposed to extend some kind of sympathy they themselves were never shown when they were of no value.

        “Also, I don’t care if you’re fat (my first serious boyfriend was 250 lbs and I had become the hottest girl on campus)….”
        So why did you dump him?

        “I don’t care if you make money (No one I’ve ever seriously dated has made any money, I don’t care about jewelry, and I don’t mind paying for/splitting bills. If a guy with whom I had a casual encounter did have money, I wouldn’t want to know or care, since I’m only trying to have fun, and gifts would make things weird and awkward).”
        More rationalization.

        “Your weight loss and money don’t make you a fun guy to be around or a good/caring boyfriend or friend. It doesn’t even make you a good lay. If you really think that it does, you’re pretty shallow.”

        So what if I am shallow? I am very well within my right to be a shallow a-hole if I so desire. This is something I have learned from feminist discourse. See for example the feminist response to Alyssa Bereznak.

        • Alyssa Bereznak wrote a really awful, crappy article. The fact that she did it on a tech gadget site was either supremely dumb on her part, or part of an attention and controversy ploy by the site itself. If the latter, it worked. To write someone off for something as awesome as being top of the top in the MTG world without knowing anything–or bothering to know anything–about the game (which requires intelligence, patience, money, and is a good platform for meeting friends) is beyond shallow. If she’d made an intelligent argument about how his dedication to the game might have affected their potential relationship due to his travel, instability of schedule, insecurity about not being able to play the game herself, then fine. Instead, she just stereotyped and said: “EWWW NERD.” Not writing his successes in the OK Cupid profile was more a show of humility than creepy, in my opinion (I know I wouldn’t have been that humble if I ever needed to go on a dating site). She deserved to be called shallow and a terrible writer. She didn’t deserve to be told she’s a cunt whore who deserves to be beaten. Not ok.

          She does not represent all women. I’m with an avid MTG player, and at the moment, I’m the one buying him cards (although he does have a great, expensive collection and often trades). I accompany him to pre-releases, release events, PTQs, FNMs, etc. Since he is currently broke, I’m going to end up having to buy him cards when needs them (I feel guilty that I haven’t been able to buy him a a box from Innistrad so that he can play a good standard deck right now). I buy duel decks so that he can help me learn, even though I know I’ll never be as good as he is.

          I repeat, Alyssa is not all women. She did something really dumb and ignorant. Who hasn’t? I don’t agree with her, but the terrible, irrelevant, inflammatory language that was used against her is completely misogynistic, defensive, and doesn’t accomplish anything other than to bring more attention to her and the site–and make the MTG community (with which I’ve never had any trouble in person) look bad.

          • I think the crux of the matter is this:
            Is alyssa closer to the exception or the norm for women, particularly dating women in their 20’s.
            I think 8 of 10 (and myself actually) are of the persuasion that she is closer to the rule, rather than the exception.
            The dating world is a shark tank LARGELY due to the fickleness and inflated sense of self-esteem of women.

            The guy Alyssa shamed on her webpage was a millionaire fund manager. The simple fact nobody likes to accept is that young women think with their libido just as much (or more) than young men. Wasting their time trying to change bad-boys, players, and thugs into LTR material.

            And (to my observation) these women never really grow up. They only “settle” for hard-working poindexters in their late 30’s because they know they no longer have the mating value to attract the attention of charming men. They still pine away for these men who used pumped and dumped them.

            Now, when these women run short on options NOW they want to play some kind of blame game on the docile respectful poindexters who got their lives straight while women made much poorer choices?

            The morale of the story is don’t think the blame game is going to work in the particular situation when it comes from 39y/o women who spent half their lives riding the charmer pumpem and dumpem c*ck carousels on 39-49y/o men who spent quiet lives amassing decent life-options who trade those options in for the women they desire.

            It’s a huge case of the pot calling the kettle black. Don’t blame men for playing the best hand they are dealt.

            If you want a better outcome for all (and not just for narcissistic women who mispent their youth) then you should advocate for restoring the marriage contract.

            Support shared parenting advocates. But most women don’t want to do this. The would rather have the option to titillate themselves with lots of fun guys (with no real future) and shame men later in life to take them after they’ve been used like a communal specimen cup.

            Let’s be honest for a change. Let’s be honest about immature choices women make too.

            • I’m sorry if, in your experience, she is the rule. I just know that I’m not, and that a lot of the women I know are not. Who would I blame and shame afterwards? Most of the men in my social life have treated me with the same respect I gave to them. If I didn’t want a relationship with them, why should I expect they would want one with me? I’ve said before that I have no interest in changing a man and don’t really think it’s up to me to do so. If they want to change in any way, good for them, but I’m not going to waste my own energy on it. I’m not some…man missionary. I would never blame a man for being a ‘docile poindexter’, but I will point it out when he lacks confidence and puts me or another woman on a pedestal that we can never fulfill (or even deserve) just because we’re hot and talk to him. Just like my guy friends and partner won’t call me terrible names, but will tell me when I’m being a bit crazy or unreasonable.

              I don’t pine for any of the ‘more charming’ (that’s so subjective, too) guys I’ve slept with. They were fun, and I hope they’re doing well, but my dorky, broke, not in shape partner can make me cum 10 times in 15 minutes, shares his ‘nerdy’ hobbies with me, tells me when I’m being crazy but accepts my apologies afterwards, treats me like a woman, not something that he’s won, and loves me as much as I love him. I’m 25 and while I wasn’t hit on very much when I was younger, I’ve had my pick of the ‘litter’ for a little while now, since I’m beautiful, intelligent, and nice. I know what I want, though, and it’s not wealth, a super-body, fake insults, or acceptance of him by my friends (family might be a different matter :)). I need a guy who isn’t bitter and respects women, with whom I can have fun, play games, cook, watch tv, travel, fight and have makeup sex afterwards, cuddle, etc.. It just makes for an easier, funner, less complicated life. I’m blessed to have found a guy like that, but find no use in flagellating myself, him or others for having experimented with love, sex, friendship, drama, or sexual fluidity when we wanted to.

              If enjoying sex is considered ‘misspending youth’, then we really do live in a puritanical society. If someone doesn’t want to get married, they shouldn’t have to, but if they chose to have children, it’s important to understand that the kids come first now. That goes for hetero couples, singles parents, gays, lesbians, etc.

              • Aya,

                I applaud your acceptance of men for who they are. I also applaud your acceptance of the men which Alyssa seems to think are disposable.

                While we could probably argue about whether or not Alyssa is the rule, I think it would be spot-on to say that the average women lie somewhere between your acceptance and Alyssa’s fickleness. In my experience the great majority of 20’s and low 30’s women are much closer to Alyssa than to you.

                ON these pages I’ve seen women crying about how they get hit on by dozen’s and dozens of men each week. I’ve also seen many female posters cry about how they’re not approached by women.

                I’ve even seen one female poster called out and trying to claim BOTH things on two different threads within a week apart (on the timing of the articles).

                It seems most people blithely accept when women say: “all men are like_____”.

                But, when men pour out their feelings about the shortcomings of women to realize a valuable man it’s “oh no! All women are not like that! In fact me myself am like this _______”
                (In other words: when women complain men are the problem it’s undeniable fact. When men complain women are the problem, it’s the undeniable fact that the complaining men are the problem. Are women ever at fault?)

                Regardless of how over-prevalent the exception seems to be on these boards (chuckle):
                All women can’t be the exception to the very noticeable trend that women in their 20’s devalue reliable respectful men in exchange for drama kings to spice up their lives.

                I’m not on a rampage on women. I and other commenters are trying to give a very serious counter-point to the author, that young women make poor choices true.

                It’s called experience for a reason.

        • Alyssa Bereznak wrote a really awful, crappy article. The fact that she did it on a tech gadget site was either supremely dumb on her part, or part of an attention and controversy ploy by the site itself. If the latter, it worked. To write someone off for something as awesome as being top of the top in the MTG world without knowing anything–or bothering to know anything–about the game (which requires intelligence, patience, money, and is a good platform for meeting friends) is beyond shallow. If she’d made an intelligent argument about how his dedication to the game might have affected their potential relationship due to his travel, instability of schedule, insecurity about not being able to play the game herself, then fine. Instead, she just stereotyped and said: “EWWW NERD.” Not writing his successes in the OK Cupid profile was more a show of humility than creepy, in my opinion (I know I wouldn’t have been that humble if I ever needed to go on a dating site). She deserved to be called shallow and a terrible writer. She didn’t deserve to be told she’s a c*** wh**e who deserves to be beaten. Not ok.

          She does not represent all women. I’m with an avid MTG player, and at the moment, I’m the one buying him cards (although he does have a great, expensive collection and often trades). I accompany him to pre-releases, release events, PTQs, FNMs, etc. Since he is currently broke, I’m going to end up having to buy him cards when needs them (I feel guilty that I haven’t been able to buy him a a box from Innistrad so that he can play a good standard deck right now). I buy duel decks so that he can help me learn, even though I know I’ll never be as good as he is.

          I repeat, Alyssa is not all women. She did something really dumb and ignorant. Who hasn’t? I don’t agree with her, but the terrible, irrelevant, inflammatory language that was used against her is completely misogynistic, defensive, and doesn’t accomplish anything other than to bring more attention to her and the site–and make the MTG community (with which I’ve never had any trouble in person) look bad.

          (edited due to moderation for using bad words <..>)

          • I agree that, just like Alyssa, you have the right to be shallow. Just recognize that your weight and money won’t make you fun, caring, cute, interesting, or good in bed. I’m genuinely sorry that you got bullied. It’s a problem that’s finally being addressed in the media. A lot of people are bullied because of their weight, ethnicity, being too pretty/too ugly, sexual orientation, gender identification, race, class, social awkwardness, etc. It doesn’t help to face it 24/7 on the internet. Pushing one’s own insecurities to others by bullying them and making their lives a living hell is sick, and your bullies were sick. I hope the women who dated them didn’t bully you as well or sit by the sidelines and let it happen. If they did, they were just as sick. All you can do is hope that they’ve recognized that they were wrong and changed.

            I never complained that all men only want younger, hotter girls (I’m sure a lot do, but what use is it to care or get hung up on it?). I was simply trying to say that a lot of vocal MRAs seem to only see a dichotomy between girls they put on a pedestal (future bitches who don’t sleep with them and go after guys that they deem unworthy) and fat old crones (who hate sex and don’t deserve love)—but don’t recognize that a lot of women, straight or lesbian (as well as gay guys) go through the same things that they do. They also watch the people they think they love stay with and keep coming back to abusive, manipulative people. It’s not something that ONLY happens to straight, self-proclaimed ‘beta’ men.

            If everything is a meat market to you, then why bother with people? Is it that impossible to believe that many people want good relationships, good friends, and good sex, and will continue to care about the important people in their lives? I highly doubt that my friend’s wife (the mother of his child, and a very smart woman) would leave him simply because of some hair loss. If they both lose their jobs, it’ll be tough and cause a lot of stress. There might be money arguments, affairs, etc—but marriage often involves work. No marriage will ever be perfect, but you love each other, you love your children, you should be attracted to each other, and you’ve built a life together. That’s so much more important than a hair style or being able to afford a whatever-inch TV. My parents’ friend stayed with her husband through deafness, job changes, hair loss, and major problems with children. As for my first love, it’s simple. I dumped him not because of his weight, but because I was very young and wanted to see what else was out there—poor, rich, fat, buff, nerdy, frat boy, awkward, arrogant, whatever. Who says your first love and first sexual partner has to be your last, especially at a young age? He’s still one of my very best friends (if not my best friend). He’s also lost a lot of weight and I continue to encourage him in his own romantic and sexual pursuits. He’s had success with beautiful girls and I hope he continues to.

            • “I agree that, just like Alyssa, you have the right to be shallow.”
              Great.

              “Just recognize that your weight and money won’t make you fun, caring, cute, interesting, or good in bed.”
              I have to refer to more feminist dogma on this question as well. It is my full right to regard myself as the ultimate gift to women, and if women can’t see this then they are simply ignorant. Just as feminists state that women never have to change or commit introspection.

              “I’m genuinely sorry that you got bullied. It’s a problem that’s finally being addressed in the media. A lot of people are bullied because of their weight, ethnicity, being too pretty/too ugly, sexual orientation, gender identification, race, class, social awkwardness, etc. It doesn’t help to face it 24/7 on the internet. Pushing one’s own insecurities to others by bullying them and making their lives a living hell is sick, and your bullies were sick. I hope the women who dated them didn’t bully you as well or sit by the sidelines and let it happen. If they did, they were just as sick. All you can do is hope that they’ve recognized that they were wrong and changed.”

              I don’t care, let those women have it off with the bullies, they are well within their right to have it off with whomever they so please, that is not for me to decide. That is not what I am arguing about, what I am arguing about is that these same women complain when they can’t compete for the bullies anymore, and the bullied don’t want to deal with those women.

              “I never complained that all men only want younger, hotter girls (I’m sure a lot do, but what use is it to care or get hung up on it?).”

              See previous articles on this very site, ‘Her looks, your status’ and Is it natural for older guys to lust after younger girls?

              “I was simply trying to say that a lot of vocal MRAs seem to only see a dichotomy between girls they put on a pedestal (future bitches who don’t sleep with them and go after guys that they deem unworthy) and fat old crones (who hate sex and don’t deserve love)—but don’t recognize that a lot of women, straight or lesbian (as well as gay guys) go through the same things that they do. They also watch the people they think they love stay with and keep coming back to abusive, manipulative people. It’s not something that ONLY happens to straight, self-proclaimed ‘beta’ men.”

              Let me ask, is there a loud vocal movement spreading out in media talking about how women and homosexual men get exactly the level of romantic attraction they deserve and if they get a level they are not content with then they only have themselves to blame. If there is such a movement, then I will say it is fair to all genders and sexual orientations.

              “If everything is a meat market to you, then why bother with people?”
              A lot of times it is a meat market. The most sexually attractive man gets laid the most. The losers get nothing.

              “Is it that impossible to believe that many people want good relationships, good friends, and good sex, and will continue to care about the important people in their lives?”
              I have seen too much to believe that.

              “I highly doubt that my friend’s wife (the mother of his child, and a very smart woman) would leave him simply because of some hair loss. If they both lose their jobs, it’ll be tough and cause a lot of stress. There might be money arguments, affairs, etc—but marriage often involves work.”
              Just wait and see. You would be suprissed at how fast things can change, especially when better offers come around.

              “No marriage will ever be perfect, but you love each other, you love your children, you should be attracted to each other, and you’ve built a life together. That’s so much more important than a hair style or being able to afford a whatever-inch TV. My parents’ friend stayed with her husband through deafness, job changes, hair loss, and major problems with children.”
              See statement above. Things can change at a very rapid pace.

              “As for my first love, it’s simple. I dumped him not because of his weight, but because I was very young and wanted to see what else was out there—poor, rich, fat, buff, nerdy, frat boy, awkward, arrogant, whatever. Who says your first love and first sexual partner has to be your last, especially at a young age?”
              Something better, yes.

              “He’s still one of my very best friends (if not my best friend). He’s also lost a lot of weight and I continue to encourage him in his own romantic and sexual pursuits. He’s had success with beautiful girls and I hope he continues to.”
              This is probably just you saying this to make yourself feel better. I have seen and heard this speech too many times. He is such a great person, oh how I wish that he would meet a woman who could appreciate all those things, but I don’t feel anything.
              It is just a nice way to not having to confront a pure market fundamentalist approach to dating and attraction.

              • No, no. Not better. Just different. New lust. New penis. New places to f***. Different experience. Like you’ve never heard of any guy who was married to a gorgeous, smart woman cheat on her with the dowdier nanny, some dumb girl he met in a club, a prostitute, an ugly but aggressive woman he met on a trip abroad, etc… (I didn’t cheat on him, just trying to draw a comparison that different doesn’t always have to mean better).

  27. Jill, I *think* what 8of10 is saying is that if a woman has slept with someone who he considers a jerk, she will get rejected by a ‘second tier’ (presumably what he considers himself at the moment) if or when she wants to date one. This would make all jerks ‘first tier’ and all nice guys ‘second tier’ (this makes no sense, since plenty of very good men are also intelligent, educated, sexy guys who date and mate with women). He and other guys are completely free to avoid and reject any woman they want, but to use his words, “Those men aren’t attractive anyways, so it shouldn’t be a loss to females of the world that they hate women.” It seems outdated, silly, insecure, and impractical to vilify a woman who’s been with someone you’re not a fan of. It’s not exactly slut-shame, just a little immature. I don’t like one of my partner’s exes. Frankly, I think she was a total bitch to him, me, and in general. He had a lot of sex with her. So what? He’s having sex with me now and is great at it. 8of10 *could* be saying that jerks are ‘second tier’, but that wouldn’t make sense in the context of his other comments.

    Also, 8of10, who’s kicking whom in the above situation? I’ve never encountered that particular fetish in my sexcapades, but I’m sure it’s out there…:P Sure, relationships between (and within) genders are not always going to be neat, especially when you add sex into the mix. One friend falls for another, a couple drifts apart, two people love one another, but one or both of them isn’t/aren’t ready or willing to have a monogamous relationship so they sleep around, sex drives/kinks/sexualities don’t match, etc… Of course, it won’t *always* be perfect, but there’s nothing wrong with two consenting parties having a good time and parting without some big scene. All you can do is try and treat one another with respect and admit it when you haven’t.

    • “Jill, I *think* what 8of10 is saying is that if a woman has slept with someone who he considers a jerk, she will get rejected by a ‘second tier’ (presumably what he considers himself at the moment) if or when she wants to date one.”
      You were the one talking about vocal MRAs refusing to go after other people than victoria’s secret models. I asked why that is a problem. MRAs aren’t attractive anyway so what is the problem if they hate women?

      “This would make all jerks ‘first tier’ and all nice guys ‘second tier’ (this makes no sense, since plenty of very good men are also intelligent, educated, sexy guys who date and mate with women). He and other guys are completely free to avoid and reject any woman they want, but to use his words, “Those men aren’t attractive anyways, so it shouldn’t be a loss to females of the world that they hate women.” It seems outdated, silly, insecure, and impractical to vilify a woman who’s been with someone you’re not a fan of. ”
      This is totally incoherent.

      “It’s not exactly slut-shame, just a little immature. I don’t like one of my partner’s exes. Frankly, I think she was a total bitch to him, me, and in general. He had a lot of sex with her. So what?”
      Yes, so what? How about, no you ran your legs off in chase of the men who made my life a living hell, when we were young. But now when 8of10 makes boatloads of money and has lost all of his overweight, and you have lost your capital in the meat market, then suddenly I am supposed to feel sorry for you that I remember you previous actions and don’t want to deal with you.

      “He’s having sex with me now and is great at it. 8of10 *could* be saying that jerks are ‘second tier’, but that wouldn’t make sense in the context of his other comments.”
      Why is it so hard to comprehend? You can’t first run your legs off chasing bullies, and then suddenly when you can’t compete for the bullies anymore then start talking about how ‘you have changed’ and that you ‘have different values’ now.

      “Also, 8of10, who’s kicking whom in the above situation? I’ve never encountered that particular fetish in my sexcapades, but I’m sure it’s out there…:P”
      You can’t first talk about how second tier men are worthless and should just realized they will never procreate, then suddenly when the first tier is to tough for you start running back to the second tier. You treated people in the second tier as crap when you hold power, then be prepared to be treated as crap when you fall into the second tier.

      “Sure, relationships between (and within) genders are not always going to be neat, especially when you add sex into the mix. One friend falls for another, a couple drifts apart, two people love one another, but one or both of them isn’t/aren’t ready or willing to have a monogamous relationship so they sleep around, sex drives/kinks/sexualities don’t match, etc… Of course, it won’t *always* be perfect, but there’s nothing wrong with two consenting parties having a good time and parting without some big scene. All you can do is try and treat one another with respect and admit it when you haven’t.”
      I treat people like they treat other, and judging from how vocal women are about that men should know their place and realize they get the female attention they deserve, they have clearly shown they want to play hardball, and that means I will play hardball with them.

      • I don’t think any guy is worthless or shouldn’t get laid, nor have I ever had a situation where a first tier guy was ‘too tough’. Like I said, most of the guys I consider ‘1st tier’ are very sweet men who just happen to be confident and make for great boyfriends and friends. I’ve had a lot more problems with friends who consider themselves ‘2nd tier’ and just don’t seem to get the dating scene complain to me because I’ve tried to be nice to them (and I can never give them any good advice), or go after me romantically and whinily because I’m a hot girl who said a few nice words to them. The only people I said aren’t good people anyways are the ones who point fingers and judge. Guys (and girls) who can’t get a date just need to step back and realize that they might be doing something wrong.

  28. What Utopian nonsense

    To assume that there should always be perfectly mutual desire in sex is absurd. Oftentimes sex can be transactional. If men were less aggressive about sex, then no sex would ever be had again.

    • And the goal of modern feminism would be accomplished.

    • “If men were less aggressive about sex, then no sex would ever be had again.”

      What ARE you talking about?

      • ” “If men were less aggressive about sex, then no sex would ever be had again.”
        What ARE you talking about?”

        What he means is that the society dictates, the man initiates sexual intentions and shows enough determination to convince the woman of his interest. The woman has the option to follow through or avoid the situation.

    • “If men were less aggressive about sex, then no sex would ever be had again.”

      You don’t hang out with the same women as I do.

      • wet_suit_one says:

        Well, my sweet love and I, who’ve had sex dozens and dozens of times now, probably only would have had once or twice if it were up to her.

        I asked her if I was ever too agressive about sex or pressured her or coerced her into sex and she said no. Yet she’s only initiated maybe twice in our whole relationship.

        Crap, I’m seeing a problem here. And yet she’s the most orgasmic, sex loving woman I’ve ever been with. Oh no, I’m sensing an issue here that needs careful discussion. Ah crap! Oh well, better now than afte the ring goes on the finger…

        The Wet One.

    • Doctor Ragnarok says:

      I see troll-people…

    • EJDoyle says:

      Weird; the guys I know that are getting laid regularly aren’t very aggressive people. In fact, most of them seem pretty cool- and my metric of ‘cool’ includes ‘not being aggressive or pushy about sex’.

    • What is true is ladies say they are looking for nice man. It is also true that their actions prove it is the mean, offensive, and rude males are the ones they choose. Look at any dating sight . The facts stick out . If a man says he : cooks , gardens, reads, loves to cuddle , ect. is less likely to be chosen . Yet the Ladies on these same sites say that’s what they are looking for .

    • Jamie Parsons says:

      Now that is a ridiculous comment, true nonsense.

  29. Speaking for myself, sometimes a gal just wants a little action. So she goes out and looks for some. Maybe she’s taking you home because she decided early on that she was going to. She may be taking you home DESPITE all the smooth moves you’ve been making, not BECAUSE all that game you think you have. Sometimes with the young studs it’s best to let them think it’s all their idea. Saves a little time.

    • Have you ever hit on a 40 something guy in Home Depot, Gertie?

      Just thinking maybe that was you…and all this time I figgered I was making all the right moves.
      Well…until I went to plumbing and headed for the checkouts with a brandy new toilet plunger.

      Eeew

  30. Colin, I feel your pain bro. you see sex happening all around you and you would like to have some also. Someone earlier suggested “buying some”. I think that’s dead nuts on advice. Since you’re just looking for that first “score”, who better than a seasoned professional who knows how to make a man “fell like a man”. A 4 day visit to Vegas should do the trick. Just go and do the reasearch. Check reviews, find a good “ranch” and go for it. Or you could wait around for “the right girl”. Yeah, another weekend with “rosey palm & her 5 sisters”. Hey, the ’40 Year old Virgin’ might be a funny movie, but it’s a pretty sad way to live your life.

    • That’s a good idea. Just make sure it’s a reputable brothel that tests and doesn’t exploit underage girls. If I hadn’t had sex by now, I’d be seeking out some erm…paid company myself to get some experience.

      • Black Iris says:

        I think it’s an awful idea. It’s a rotten first experience. If you’re a sensitive person, things might not go well. It doesn’t teach you how to make love to a woman. I don’t even see how it could give you confidence. And then when you find a girl who likes you, she’s probably going to be turned off that you went to a prostitute.

        • wet_suit_one says:

          Pray tell, where O where does one learn to “make love to a woman”?

          Could you point me to the books or video that spells it out?

          As well, you’re prejuding the matter rather too quickly aren’t you? A person could, you know, find a pro who will teach you how to make love to a woman. It can and I’m sure does happen. There are paid sexual surrogates who do these things you know.

          The Wet One

  31. Anonymous Male says:

    One of the most common ways we know a particular man is an asshole is the way he mistreats the women who have slept with him. It is one of the most obvious ways in which assholes reveal themselves. And yet these guys seem to have cycles in which they do this over and over to woman after woman, and sometimes the same woman returns again. And usually there is some evidence of his true nature but he manages to find a willing sex partner anyway. So, male observers may naturally feel a little confused by this. (I would hope many women would be confused by this as well.)

    Being an obnoxious jerk is not a great strategy to choose, but apparently if the goal is simply to get laid, it is not always a deal-breaker either.

    • Unfortunately, a lot of guys who others consider jerks just happen to be more fun to be around. What’s obnoxious to me is a guy forging a frienship with me without making his usually transparent anyways intentions clear, who tells me that my boyfriend is a jerk without any evidence but a few passing complaints or observations, whines to me about some girl he put on a pedestal, and who has his only sexual knowledge and experience from porn. I’d rather be with someone who’s honest and confident about sleeping with other girls, than with someone who I know would be so thrilled by any female attention that he jumps at every chance and dishonestly humiliates me..

      • “Unfortunately, a lot of guys who others consider jerks just happen to be more fun to be around. ”
        Yes, this seems to be the general reality of things. Telling cruel and demeaning jokes about other men, that is called charm and joy of life.
        Showing up to an engineering conference only talking about drunken adventures to hide you have nothing else to talk about and feel intellectually out gunned that is called social grace.

        “. I’d rather be with someone who’s honest and confident about sleeping with other girls, than with someone who I know would be so thrilled by any female attention that he jumps at every chance and dishonestly humiliates me..”
        Yes, so you like a winner, tell me something we don’t all ready know.
        What I find more and more amusing is that every woman feminist or not, bleeding heart liberal or not they all seem to agree that the meat market should be modeled after a market model that would make even Ayn Rand talk about going to far in deregulation.

        • You bring up a good point” 8 of 10. To me, the ability/right to eat and have basic healthcare (even when you’re old and unable to work) trumps the ability/right to find a ‘soulmate’ or get regular sex from someone who looks like Jeri Ryan and takes it up the butt (it’s an exaggeration, but I couldn’t help a 7 of 9 reference, given your name). Even a liberal person would tell you that you can’t get a job by sitting your ass all day and hoping it will come to you, only going for jobs for which you’re grossly unqualified, showing up at interviews without showering and dressed in sweats, or acting so desperate for the job that the employer will wonder if there’s anything you can do for THEM.

      • Aya:
        Your comment makes me think of a particular idea:
        The nerd males of the world who pedestalize women are very much the same as the feminists who seek to pedestalize women.

        I think it’s funny that so many talk so negatively about PUA, because PUA has a lot more frank discussion about what makes women tick and accepting them for who they are then feminism.

    • Many jerks don’t seem like jerks at the beginning. Instead, they seem fun, confident, attentive, and emotionally engaged. They usually show their true colors later, by which time the woman has already made an emotional investment. And women can do very dumb things when they are emotionally invested. People lie to themselves all the time. Men do it too — they will stay with an attractive woman who is emotionally abusive and manipulative simply because they are mesmerized by her good looks and sex appeal. This is an example of “confirmation bias” or seeing what you want to see. I had a roommate in college who was drop dead gorgeous and she treated guys like sh&t, but none of them ever dumped her even when she took their money and cheated on them. They kept coming back for more. It drove me crazy. I couldn’t understand how otherwise intelligent guys could be so stupid.

      • The problem with a lot of vocal MRAs is that they only see women as either a Victoria’s Secret model/girl put on pedestal that won’t date him, or an old, fat crone who doesn’t deserve love anyways and hates sex. They don’t recognize that a lot of women in between who go through the SAME thing, just like Jill and I have said. We also often sit on the sidelines and see guys who keep going back to manipulative women who use them, treat them like shit, and cheat, but overlook the ‘nice girls’ out there.

        I was lucky enough to go through an ugly duckling transformation situation, so I have both perspectives and try to be jaded by neither. I’m still pretty young, but very few guys I’ve met who have been complete black and white jerks like people try to paint. I might have a fun week long stand with someone who’s mostly jerk, but I won’t go into a long term relationship with him, and am likely to eventually get bored or annoyed with him. If that’s what he wants, then it’s win-win. A lot of jerkier guys (especially ones who act that way to gain acceptance of their peers) go on to become pretty good guys once they’ve matured, ‘gotten it out of their system’, or found something/someone that makes it worth to change their behavior. Some never change, and that works great for them. I’m not at all advocating dating someone hoping that they’ll change (dumb), just saying that guys and gals are rarely simply just ‘jerk/bitch’ or ‘nice’ like crappy movies and romantic comedies seem to suggest.

        • “The problem with a lot of vocal MRAs is that they only see women as either a Victoria’s Secret model/girl put on pedestal that won’t date him, or an old, fat crone who doesn’t deserve love anyways and hates sex.”
          Shouldn’t be a problem really. Those men aren’t attractive anyways, so it shouldn’t be a loss to females of the world that they hate women.

          “They don’t recognize that a lot of women in between who go through the SAME thing, just like Jill and I have said. We also often sit on the sidelines and see guys who keep going back to manipulative women who use them, treat them like shit, and cheat, but overlook the ‘nice girls’ out there.”
          Support works both ways. I know all kinds of things about what it feels like to be a woman, I have heard all kinds of stories about ‘not conventionally attractive’ women and how they feel. Yet somehow I have yet to see a single woman actually express genuine sympathy and understanding for men, other than lip service.

          “I might have a fun week long stand with someone who’s mostly jerk, but I won’t go into a long term relationship with him, and am likely to eventually get bored or annoyed with him. If that’s what he wants, then it’s win-win.”
          I.e. when the women you compete with have better offerings, then you can go to second tier.

          “Some never change, and that works great for them. I’m not at all advocating dating someone hoping that they’ll change (dumb), just saying that guys and gals are rarely simply just ‘jerk/bitch’ or ‘nice’ like crappy movies and romantic comedies seem to suggest.”
          I.e. women know what’s best and if a woman approves of a man, then he can’t be a jerk no matter what.

          • “I.e. when the women you compete with have better offerings, then you can go to second tier.”
            Why does every sexual encounter have to be a competition or end up in a relationship? Can’t two hot people just have fun sex and both move on without any drama? If I have sex with a guy for a week, and he goes on and marries someone more suitable for him in a month, and I do the same thing, what’s the problem? Good times, wish you the best, if we stay friends we do, if we don’t, we don’t.

            Where did you even get that I said that women know best? All I was trying to say is that it’s not all black and white. It’s not a Disney movie where one guy is Aladdin and the other guy is Jafar, or one girl is a princess and the other is a crazy slut who tries to ruin her life and steal her boyfriend.

            • “Why does every sexual encounter have to be a competition or end up in a relationship? Can’t two hot people just have fun sex and both move on without any drama? If I have sex with a guy for a week, and he goes on and marries someone more suitable for him in a month, and I do the same thing, what’s the problem?”
              No problem as long as you accept that the second tier choice has every right to reject you.

              “Good times, wish you the best, if we stay friends we do, if we don’t, we don’t.”
              Old saying in my native language. The ones you kick on your way up are the ones that catch you when you fall.

              • Everyone has the right to reject me if they choose. I have the right to reject everyone I want to. It’s not rocket science…or brain surgery (whatever the saying is nowadays). I also have the courtesy to not insult, bully, or shame the ones who reject me. If they’re not into me, so be it–it’s my responsibility to get over it, move on with my life, and spend my energy on my career or people who are better for me.

              • I don’t even understand what point you are trying to make. First you complain that women prefer “jerks’, then you say that the “jerks” are “second tier” and the more attractive women are getting better choices. Which is it?

                I have a feeling, 8of10, that you won’t approve of anything a woman does, so there is little point debating with you. I’ve read many of your posts and you are one angry dude. Just keep in mind that whenever you point a finger, three of your fingers are pointing back at you.

                • “I don’t even understand what point you are trying to make. First you complain that women prefer “jerks’, then you say that the “jerks” are “second tier” and the more attractive women are getting better choices. Which is it?”

                  Do you read what I write? It is simple. You can’t first go after the first tier, and talk about how worthless the second and third tier is, and then suddenly when the competition for the first tier is too fierce, then suddenly go after the second tier.

                  “I have a feeling, 8of10, that you won’t approve of anything a woman does, so there is little point debating with you. I’ve read many of your posts and you are one angry dude. Just keep in mind that whenever you point a finger, three of your fingers are pointing back at you.”

                  It’s not me first screaming my head off about my ‘right to preference’ and then demand sympathy when I am not included in other peoples’ preferences.

                  • When have I ever said that “second tier” men don’t have a right to procreate? You are all over the map. But I’m not going to argue about who is 1st tier or 2nd tier because I do not buy into these false dichotomies. People are individuals and have individual preferences (and yes I do believe we all have a right to our preferences, both men and women). What works for one person won’t work for a different person. Yes, some people are more attractive to members of the opposite sex. So what? If you are having trouble finding relationships then you need to look at yourself and learn to present you strengths in the best light.

                    If you are complaining that many young women are immature and make bad choices in men based on transitory physical attraction, then, yeah, I agree with you as a general rule. Young men make similar mistakes. Eventually most of us grow up and our attractions become more nuanced. I don’t see why you think that’s such a bad thing. You seem to enjoy this fantasy of pretty young women who rejected shy/geeky/awkward guys being punished when they get older and the shy/geeky/awkward guys turn around and reject them. I submit that doesn’t actually happen. I know dozens of single women who are dating and finding happy relationships in their late 20’s – 50’s and beyond. I think while you are sitting at the computer feeling angry that you aren’t screwing 22-year-old hotties and wallowing in your righteous indignation and your revenge fantasies, other men and women are out meeting each other, getting involved and living their lives.

                    By the way, when I was in my 20’s I was a bit of a nerdy girl and I dated plenty of shy/geeky/awkward guys. The biggest problem with shy/geeky/awkward guys is that they are often difficult to talk to, don’t know how to engage socially, miss social cues, and they are so reticent that it is impossible to emotionally connect. Maybe the reason that women are more likely to choose those kinds of guys later in life (if indeed that is true, as you say) is because THOSE GUYS HAVE CHANGED. They’ve grown up and gotten better at talking and relating to women. Have you considered that possibility?

  32. We all know women are never manipulative. Worry less about men and examine your own behavior. In stead of trying to change us, why not focus on ways you can improve yourself. Unless of coarse you feel you’ve reached the pinnacle of perfection. I shouldn’t be surprised, feminism was never about accountability,

    • “The pronouns in this essay thus far would suggest that I think only men can be coercive when it comes to sex, and we all know that’s patently untrue. We know male rape is a real issue, and that the stigma against victims can be excruciating. We know that women can lie and scheme their way into sex just as well as men. We know that insults to masculinity, epithets like “pussy,” or accusations of homosexuality can compel guys to do things they don’t want to do, just to prove a point. The toolbox may look different, but we know that girls can wield emotional manipulation and social coercion with expert dexterity.”

    • It’s ‘of course,’ not ‘of coarse.’ I too get annoyed when articles on this site say things like “men have an animalistic instinct to have sex”, without mentioning that most women do as well (we really do). This site focuses on mentioning men, for better or for worse, because it’s called the Good Men Project. Women can certainly act in ways that are not ‘good’ and very manipulative. I don’t think that this article or any of commenters are trying to prove otherwise.

      Feminism is not about saying that women are always good people just because they don’t have penises—it’s just about making sure that women around the world have the same earning potential as men if they chose to take it, are allowed to express their sexual desires without punishment, and are able to avoid false gender and racial stereotypes (this goes for trans women as well).

      Masculinity is great. Femininity is great, as is everything in between. Just make sure that it’s your personal choice. Men can be good caretakers, women can be good leaders. Women who chose to stay at home and take care of the house and their children are perfectly justified in doing so—so are men who chose to do the same thing and the ones who chose to pursue a ‘manly’ career. Most men are not rapists, and most women are not victims. It’s important, though, to support the men and women who have been victims of abuse and sexual violence.

  33. Why not do an article on how women can act like ‘jerks’ when approaching man? Typical feminist inspired article. Man bad, woman good. Demonize men and victimize women.

  34. This is only really advice for picking up feminist women. Doing that will generally lead to every discussion you have turning into an argument, as feminist women will pick over everything you say and deny that you have any right to an opinion that differs from their own (google the term ‘mansplaining’ if you have any doubt of this. It’s a term they made up that basically mean ‘you have no right to disagree with me or explain how you view things because PENIS!).

    Ignore this and find someone who doesn’t think every man is a potential rapist, and who isn’t a festering pustule of anger towards the gender of which you are not a part. I’ve been reading these folks for years, and while some of them are in it to achieve equality and right injustices, most of them are just in it because five years ago, some psycho raped them or a guy cheated on them.

    • I consider myself a feminist, and I love men (most of them, at least). I think penises are great. Most of my friends are guys because I tend to get along better with men. I’ve seen a few hopeless seeming cases like Colin’s where they feel entitled to regular sex just because they act like some romantic comedy from the 90s told them to. I’ve had guy friends tell me that they wish they could ‘become’ jerks so that they could get the girl of their dreams (without bothering to look into less ‘popular’ ones). I know this won’t work but I know what they’re doing isn’t either. I’m not an advice columnist, so I’m at a loss other than saying to stop acting so desperate, bitter, or self-loathing. I hope he does find someone. I bet when he gets one girl, the 2nd will be easier, and so on. It’s that first hurdle that’s the hardest.

      The vast, vast majority of men are not potential rapists. Rational feminists know that very well. That’s why we’re so against men telling women to cover up, whether it’s a law requiring burquas, or calling women who wear skirts ‘sluts’. By doing that, you’re saying that all men rape at the sheer sight of an extra piece of skin. That’s not true, even a little bit. The only people who might think that all men are rapists are rapists trying to excuse their own actions.

  35. “id venture to say most of that sex wasn’t rape.”

    Yes it was if the definition of rape is anything that doesn’t include enthusiastic consent. Animals don’t have language so all animal sex is rape (with the exception of fish perhaps). And humans spent half of their history without language so at that time all sex was rape. The new feminist definition of rape requires language. So rape is the rule. Sex is the exception. Consensual sex is a rare thing indeed if you accept feminist definitions.

  36. I don’t get why women on here are calling me a jerk. I don’t do anything that makes me a jerk. I can’t comprehend how being not great with women makes me a jerk, because numerous people have said that. “If you’re awkward, or don’t have a lot or self esteem, etc, you are a jerk.” How?

    As for me not actually being nice, how would you know? Is it nice to hold open doors? Is it nice to without fail offer/try to pay? Is it nice to be polite? Is it nice to do little random acts of kindness that has nothing to do with sex or anything else (helping mothers with strollers getting up and down the subway steps, asking confused tourists if they need some help, etc)? I am not a jerk who thinks that nice is not hitting or degrading a woman; I am a genuinely nice person. I always want the people I am with to have a good time, and I will ask them, if it appears they are not enjoying themselves, if they would like to do/eat/drink/whatever something else.

    I hear both women and men talking about teasing women and being playful. How is teasing nice? I don’t know how to “playfully” tease, mostly because I was relentlessly picked on as a child, so I don’t find teasing very fun or playful.

    Am I a bit whiny on here? Yes. Do I think it is incredibly unfair that I have been involuntarily celibate because I’ve tried extremely hard to be the kind of man that women claim to want? Yes.

    I especially love the “just have confidence.” If I had confidence, I wouldn’t have confidence problems. Success with women breeds confidence, and a noted lack of success with women hurts confidence. I can’t just magically be confidence, and no one ever tells someone how to have confidence.

    As for being desperate, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that if I can’t make progress with women — and very soon — my chances at ever having a fulfilling relationship get close to zero. How many women in their early 20’s really want to be with a man who has only kissed a couple of times? Being awkward and new at things is acceptable as a teenager, but it isn’t so acceptable in your 20’s.

    Instead of actionable advice that can help me excite women, attract women, and be interesting to women, I get insulted, called a creep, called a jerk, etc, and get advice like “have confidence.” I haven’t gone the PUA route because it honestly makes my stomach turn, and the negging, teasing, backhanded things, etc just aren’t me. But I haven’t had any success being nice, considerate, and eager to make the other person happy.

    • randomStranger says:

      The missing ingredient from all the advice above is showing clear intent. The meat market (crowded bars & clubs, etc), lends itself to the PUA approach (sux, I could never be a PUA either), but the PUA approach pretty much only works in the meat market.

      How to get laid is a 2 stage process, 1) keep doing what your doing in order to establish a comfortable relationship with new women, get to the point where she is comfortable interacting with you (it sounds like you know how to do that already, that part is simple if your not a jerk which it sounds like you aren’t ;)) 2) and this is the hard part, show direct intent. Anybody telling you asking a woman (yo so you wanna head back to my place for a movie and some wine or somthin? because I think your a rly great person) is “easy” is LYING TO YOU. It’s awkward every time you do it but it’s honest, and unambiguous. frankly if she isn’t enough of an adult to give you a clear yes or no without telling you your a “jerk” for asking then she’s not grown up enough to be having sex in the first place.

      The thing nobody tells you about not being a jerk is that showing clear intent ISN’T being a jerk and the woman who say it is are either immature or not feminist enough to take responsibility for their own sexuality, and you don’t WANT a chick like that, those are the girls that actually DO all the stuff MRA’s love to complain about when they talk about the “typical woman”.

      Once you find one that’s said yes it’s a pretty no brainier, yea it feels real strange when your sitting next to her on your couch and your not sure if she wants you to make a joke about the movie or kiss her but ya know, you’ll figure that part out, sex is the one thing people have been doing since there have been people on this planet and id venture to say most of that sex wasn’t rape.

      and for the love of god don’t let people like lee tell you your an irresponsible creep for not getting laid as much as you want, he’s just rly arrogant and thinks all the factors to getting laid are clear to every guy and if you don’t get it you must be trying not to. The real confidence killer is guys like him who use their own sexual experience to bully people instead of help them.

      gl man.

      • Random Stranger says:
        those are the girls that actually DO all the stuff MRA’s love to complain about when they talk about the “typical woman”.

        I don’t believe your statement is an accurate assessment of the MRM.
        There is a small spinoff section concerned about dating, but the largest men’s rights organizations (like hisside.com, fathersandfamilies.org and Natl Coalition for Men) advocate for full equal parental rights for men, and greater health care for men and other important issues.

    • “Instead of actionable advice that can help me excite women, attract women, and be interesting to women, I get insulted, called a creep, called a jerk, etc, and get advice like “have confidence.” ”

      Ignore the comment above. Most women are not feminists. And most feminists lie about being sexually assertive. You can talk to women about sex. You can flirt with them. Ask them their fantasies. But your going to be fully responsible for sex and you will have to do the initiating. PERIOD. She will not make a move and if you ask her you might get a yes or maybe silence. But silence doesn’t mean she doesn’t want it. She expects you to show interest in her not the other way around. You are chasing her. Just like the animal kingdom. Women don’t want you to ask for sex they expect you to lead them towards it. This is how women work. Even most of the feminist ones.

      • I don’t want to tread into dangerous territory by saying that women ‘just want it’ or are ‘asking for it’, but you do have a good point. As I’ve said, I initiated first sex with my current partner, but I was drunk, extremely interested in him, and really, really horny. What can we do to get women to initiate more? Can we get rid of the myth that women don’t want/shouldn’t want sex? That they’re ‘giving’ something away when they enjoy penis? That the only reason they do it is to rope/keep/drain financially a guy? When you’re at home using a vibrator and fantasizing, at least you won’t be doing the ‘walk of shame’ (I’d rather it be called the ‘Walk of Singing Lonely Island’s I Just Had Sex!’) the next morning. Or be told you’re ‘cheap’ because you paid for the date instead of the guy, or because you don’t care if he marries you or not.

        We might still be a part of the animal kingdom, but we have the ability to think and reason. If we can fly across the Atlantic in several hours, we can certainly teach women that it’s OK to express their desires. I might feel assertive, but I’m guilty of not verbally expressing my desires as much as I should. When it comes to my partner, I usually just start making out with him, sitting in his lap, and groping. Even though he fancies himself a feminist, he’s still better at outright saying “I want to have sex now” than I am. I’ll work to change that. I certainly couldn’t have done it at 17, when I desperately wanted to initiate sex, but felt I’d just be bad at it or suddenly turn into some super-whore. I still find it hard in my mid-20s, but at least I’m aware now. If a guy rejects me, it’s not the end of the world, and if I get labeled, the people who do it aren’t worth my time anways.

        • I’m in my 40’s, and I STILL find it hard to just say to my partner, “let’s have sex now” or “I want sex!”. Even when I’m super horny. It is stupid but it’s hard to overcome those inhibitions. I’m more willing to initiate than I was in my 20’s but When I do, I still feel kind of embarrassed and worry that he will think less of me for being too aggressive. Sigh.

    • Black Iris says:

      Try a dating coach. Google them. They’re not about pick-up tricks, just figuring out how to present yourself.

  37. Way to twist the meaning of this conversation all out of whack.

    My original post was in response to the Emily Heist Moss assertion that a guy shouldn’t proceed forward with sex with the girl for the FIRST time until he got a “enthusiastic, excited, sustained “Yes!” from a girl. In my response I assumed that people would understand that when I said that the strongest verbal affirmation that I’ve ever got from a girl was “Sure [it’s okay to proceed],” that they would understand that I was specifically talking about the FIRST time you have sex with someone… a point I clarified in a later post. I never once said that the ONLY way to get sex was to aggressively pressure a girl into it, or anything to that effect. In fact, if you read what I actually wrote (and not Lee’s strawman response), you’d recognize that I’ve never pressured a girl into anything. Pressuring a girl would mean hitting a girl’s boundaries and immediately trying to push past it. I’ve always maintained that when a woman lets me know she’s not comfortable proceeding, I STOP, and move on to something else, until one of us re-initiates physical contact. That re-initiation may not even happen on the same night. This leaves the woman if a clear choice. She can continue with the physical contact at a later point (which happens quite often) or she can decide not to without fear of harm or pressure. There have been times in the past where a girl has been in my bed, mulling over a decision of whether or not she wants to continue moving things forward, and we didn’t because she wanted something from me that I wasn’t willing to give her (she wanted a boyfriend, I had just come out of a five year commitment and wasn’t willing to jump that quickly into a new relationship). If I were being coercive or manipulative, I could have easily lied and had sex with her. But why would I do that if I knew that she’d be happier moving on to someone who was more interested in a relationship than I was?

    Earlier, I highlighted ONE example of how I moved a relationship forward to sex without the “enthusiastic, excited, sustained “Yes!” that Emily mentioned in her article and how it ultimately lead to what has so far been a very satisfying relationship. There are many other ways to get to “YES!” I’ve had girls walk into my room in the middle of a house party and start taking off their clothes… there have been plenty that just reached down and start unbuttoning my pants or taking off my shirts. None of those instances began with me sitting down and talking about whether or not we were going to have sex beforehand. None of those times began with the women giving me an “enthusiastic, excited, sustained “YES!” And for that matter, none of them began with me giving that “YES!” either (if we’re going to be truly egalitarian, we might as well hold women to the same standard, right? Or are guys the only ones who be jerks in this realm?).

    My original point, and one that I still maintain, is that most sexual relationships don’t begin with neat little conversations about sexual boundaries (as Lee adamantly maintains they should) or with women giving an “enthusiastic, excited, sustained “Yes!” when asked about sex. As another commenter posted, “Our society requires both men and women to be more subtle.” Articles like these do a massive disservice to both men and women if we’re telling the “good men” of GMP that they need to aspire to such an exceptionally lofty standard, without first saying that to get to the point often means going out, meeting lots of women, asking them out on dates, and putting yourself in a position where sex and intimacy between the two of you is a real possibility… in other words, being more aggressive. And even after doing all that, you should still know that sometimes a woman will pursue a sexual relationship with you without you first sitting down and having a conversation about it. Sometimes opportunities do just fall into your lap, but as many male members of this board have already confessed, you can spend a lifetime waiting on those opportunities and getting nothing in return. Sometimes you have to ACT first. I think GMP would be a better site if it focused more on getting men to ACT and take control of their dating lives, in a way that’s respectful to women, without putting them on the defensive with articles like this, the anti-PUA articles, and the “Accidental Rapist” essay, and many other articles like these that litter the site.

    • First of all–at least from what I’ve read–a very small part of this site is meant to tell guys how to get with women. I never got the impression that that is the purpose of ‘Good Men Project’. I thought it was more about discussing misogyny, misandry, racism, perspectives from the LGBTQA community, problems with gender roles in society, etc. It’s also about encouraging men and women and to understand the context in which they interact and do the best they can to represent their gender well.

      I completely agree with you on the idea that ‘enthusiastic’ consent is often stretched too far. What’s an enthusiastic response for one person might come off as mild acceptance for another. I can’t see any practical way of measuring enthusiasm, especially when it comes to dating and sex, both of which are plagued with societal and cultural boundaries. I hope no one here is actually advocating having to sit down with every potential partner and writing out some contract. It’s not practical and quite frankly, that would seriously take away from the passion and romance of the moment.

      I usually love Hugo’s writing, but I think the “Accidental Rapist” article took it a bit far. If what his role in that situation makes him a rapist, then I’m a rapist, as are a lot of the guys with whom I’ve had sex. I’ve had sex in situations where I didn’t completely feel like it, had my mind elsewhere, or would rather be doing something/someone else. I don’t think that those situations had nearly as serious and devastating an effect on me as a rape does on a victim. It’s important to recognize the difference, whether we’re talking about an alley rape or a date rape. I still applaud him for being sensitive to Katie’s problems and for admitting that there was something wrong with the arrangement.

      I also can’t be against an article that says PUA advice is pretty dumb and that you shouldn’t have to resort to manipulation or pretending to be manipulated to be able to have sex. I can smell PUA techniques from a mile away. Looking back at before I was familiar with the PUA strategy, I remember guys trying to use it on me and my friends. They were usually guys who had a very insecure and hateful ‘vibe’ (I hate using the word, but I don’t really have a concrete way to describe the feeling), and artificially made themselves act like confident assholes. You could just tell. Their fake insults just made me feel uncomfortable and they didn’t seem like they’d be any fun to get to know better. The techniques obviously work on some girls, but it doesn’t make you a ‘good man’ to have to resort to them, nor does it make you a good woman to not be able to see past it unless you’re just looking for an easy bang.

    • DD – wanted to say that I totally agree with you. Lee’s arguments, while technically true in an academic context, do not hold weight in reality. Just in terms of the odds, most women DO in fact expect men to make the first move early on in the relationship. While there will be the odd woman who will give a huge enthusiastic YES after a nice sit down discussion on whether or not to have sex for the first time, most women respond to non-verbal communication and give their consent through less vocal, though just as agreeable, channels of communication. This is not to say that after the first time, women are not straightforward – in fact, in my experience, women generally become very vocal and forthcoming about having sex after the first time, but that’s the catch – AFTER the first time. Before, like it or not, the reality is that men are expected to make the moves leading to intimacy.

  38. I realize I am writing this comment kind of late in the discussion, but I have been thinking a lot about this topic, and trying to decide how to respond to a couple of the earlier comments I posted.

    So how do you get laid without being a jerk?

    I truly believe you do not need to be a jerk to get laid. But there is one huge factor that’s missing from a lot of the above discussion about jerks vs. nice guys, enthusiastic vs. ambivalent consent, confidence vs. timidity etc.

    You will get laid if you give women the idea that having sex with you will be FUN. Hardly anyone here has mentioned that sex is, above all else, FUN, and that women want sex to be fun. Especially if they are in the mood to have a casual hookup, with all the risks that entails, they are thinking, I damn well better have a good time. I’m not talking about fancy techniques here, mind you. I’m talking about the spirit of it.

    Some guys give off a vibe that sex with them will probably be awkward and serious. It’s not about being too nice or whatever. It’s awkwardness. That’s not what a woman wants to feel when she contemplates a hookup. Other guys give off a vibe that makes women think that sex with them will be fun and exciting. I would argue that many PUA techniques, like light-hearted teasing (“negging”), work NOT because they rip up a woman’s self-esteem but because humor relieves that awkward tension and nervousness that often arises in social situations, makes her laugh and makes her feel like it would be fun to have a spontaneous sexual escapade with this guy. Unfortunately, sometimes guys who are “jerks” are also pretty fun to be around.

    I have a co-worker who gets tons of women. He attracts flocks of women wherever he goes. It’s almost ridiculous how easy it is for him, and he’s not even particularly good looking. Although he works out and he’s in good shape, he’s also balding, in his 40’s and he has a big nose. His success with women has nothing to do with being a jerk. He treats women in an almost old-fashioned way, always opening doors and so on. He’s extremely respectful and kind toward women. He shows a lot of personal interest, remembers personal details, asks you about your family. The key, though, is that he’s also constantly being a big tease in a way that is light and funny. Women fall all over him — I would be very tempted to sleep with him myself, except that we work together and I’m in a relationship. 🙂

    So rather than telling guys “be confident” I would say, “figure out what you are doing that comes across as nervous and awkward and change those things”.

  39. I’m sorry for putting words into your mouth, I didn’t actually mean to do that. I had just written 3 very long comments and sort of stuck that in at the end. I’m a huge fan of safe/honest/consenting adults/whatever floats your boat movement when it comes to sex. Sometimes the ‘no means no’ thing gets taken too far, though, and I feel like it alienates a lot of guys from feminism in general. A lot of it has to do with the word ‘enthusiastic’ being thrown around when talking about rape. DD’s dilemma is certainly weird. Does he go after women who don’t find him attractive? Does he not know how to recognize enthusiasm? Does he live in a situation where women are discouraged from liking sex? Is he really THAT unlucky, or is there something wrong with what HE’S doing? Not all of my yeses have been super crazy enthusiastic, but most have. 0 out of 25 women–those are some bizarre odds.

    • No problem! I’m also in forum fight mode and probably came off a little defensive.

      I am a bigger fan of “Yes means yes!” as a movement. I would probably disagree with you on the alienation, I personally think that guys who get alienated from feminism because of consent issues weren’t exactly likely to sympathize with feminism’s goals in the first place. But yeah, agree to disagree.

      I started typing my take on DD again, but hey, I’ve harped enough on the guy. I think the reasons for his 0 in 25 are pretty clear in his own posts.

  40. Just to put it out there–I’ve also never in my life had a guy who isn’t crazy or homeless outright say that he wanted to come over and jump my bones. Our society requires both men and women to be more subtle. Men, because they’re afraid to come off as creepazoids or wannabe rapists, and women because they’re afraid to be forever labeled as sluts and whores. The brave and confident out there can get past that or decide to work to change these stereotypes. I’m sorry that more women don’t initiate to a lot of guys on this forum. I really am. The myth that all women never want sex (unless they’re manipulated or for money) and all men want sex no matter what with everyone ever might contribute to that. The fear of rejection is bad enough, but when you add into it the fear of “Omg, he refused your advances. Men want to have sex with anything that moves, so you must be a hideous person, and a slut to boot!”—it just gets more difficult. That being said, I just had a woman approach me aggressively and ask me out a couple of days ago, so it does happen. I’ve initiated sex in the past, although it was very difficult to do so at first, out of shyness and fear. I’ve also seen plenty of girls throw themselves all over guys.

    Additionally, despite being a feminist (whatever that means today), I also don’t agree with the “enthusiastic consent” thing. Although ‘enthusiasm’ is preferred, having bad, bored, or drunk sex does not make either party a rapist.

    (sorry for the essay)

    • “That being said, I just had a woman approach me aggressively and ask me out a couple of days ago, so it does happen”

      Are you a woman or a man? I”ve only ever once had a women be sexually aggressive with me .

      • I’m a woman, but I’ve also had to initiate. I initiated my first sexual encounter with my current partner. It’s had more to do with experience level and individual confidence than gender, for a lot of it. I’ve dated a couple of guys who’ve told me that their first girlfriends were the ones to initiate sex because they were just more confident by nature or the guys were the ones who were virgins. Yet, I do agree that women, especially in more conservative situations, don’t initiate and let their desires be known as much as they should. I certainly couldn’t do it for a long time. That’s on me, mostly, but the culture around how women should behave certainly didn’t help. I’d like to think that I’m over it.

    • To clarify my point, I never said that a lack of enthusiastic consent makes one a rapist. However, it is often a sign that people are pressured into having sex. Especially for the first time, I think it’s important to err on the side of respect and wait for a time when you’re both actually into it. I think it shows respect for yourself and others to wait until both parties are excited.

      In the case of DD, having NEVER had enthusiastic consent for the first time with 25 different women is a huge red flag.

    • “Bad bored or drunk sex” is not what the author is talking about. She’s specifically warning about the subtler types of coercion that are so prevalent that we may not even think of them as coercion – targeting a drunk girl because she’s drunk (not just having sex while you’re drunk, the target is the key bit here); gently talking a girl into having sex; implying that if she doesn’t have sex with you it’s because she’s a prude (and this is a big one, because we exist in a cultural context which insists that women’s true worth and power is in their sexuality). How can we not all agree that “no means no” is not enough; it must be “yes means yes”? Don’t coerce or bully women into having sex with you, no matter how gently. Easy.

  41. No woman goes specifically after jerks—that would make no logical sense. What does make sense is human nature. People, especially when young and just discovering sex and romance, enjoy the chase and love a challenge. You don’t think I was annoyed in high school when all the guys went after the cheerleaders despite knowing that I was prettier, smarter, and in my naïve head, more capable of loyalty than all of them? Guys do the same thing—they also go after the girls who others want and are considered desirable by the majority. The more you’re wanted…the more you’re wanted (you can artificially inflate how you’re wanted by pretending you don’t care, which is fine if you’re looking for casual sex, but rings shallow if you’re looking for a relationship). I thought those women were bitches and when I saw them breaking a crush of mine’s heart, I got angry and didn’t understand why he put up with it and didn’t want me. It happens on both ends and there’s no use taking it out on the other gender. It’s human nature, and some people grow out of it and see past it, some don’t.

    If a woman is naïve enough to fall for PUA tricks, she’s probably not ready for a relationship anyways. Hopefully the PUA was a good lay for her and hopefully she’ll find a good man or woman to share her life with once she’s ready. The only reason I could see sleeping with someone who uses the very obvious PUA techniques is if you’re not interested in a relationship and see PUA techniques as telltale signs of someone who’s interested in a night/week stand without too many strings or drama.

  42. Wow, here we go again. First of all, I don’t understand why so many commenters on this site can’t wrap their heads around the fact that sex feels really f***ing good for women too. I’ve had sex with a few guys on the ‘jerky’ side, but mostly I’ve done it with very decent, good guys. It’s not black and white, either. Very few guys are straight up jerk or straight up saint. I’ve fallen for guys both sides of the spectrum, and gotten bored of guys on both sides. Every time an article related to sex is written, posters just assume that every time a woman has sex, it’s because she was manipulated and it never stops being condescending. I have sex because a hard, warm penis feels good in my vagina. I have sex because I like the taste of my partner’s…you know. I have sex because I love the warmth of a man’s body on mine. I have sex because I’m bored. I have sex because I’m tipsy and hyper. I have sex to please my partner when he’s horny and would even if I didn’t know he’d reward me for it later with orgasms. I have sex because…love and stuff.

    Not every sexual encounter is meant to be a relationship, but sex can be better when there’s a connection and it’s great to be with someone who knows and appreciates your body. I’m not ‘giving’ ANYTHING up when I enjoy sex. I’m getting pleasure and he’s getting pleasure. It’s that simple. When a penis enters my vagina, it has no bearing on who I am as a person in the rest of my life other than taking some time out of my day. For the past 2 years, I’ve been in a monogamous relationship with a very nice guy. No, not a bitter, desperate, misogynistic ‘nice guy’™, just a good guy who’s there for me when I’m stressed, walks the dog when I can’t, laughs at my stupid jokes, calls me out when I’m crazy, but accepts my apology afterwards, and lets me know that he loves me.

    That’s a real nice guy. A ‘nice guy’™seems to think that he’s God’s gift to women just because he doesn’t abuse, insult, rape, or manipulate women. I’d take someone who’s a bit of an asshole over that self-righteous attitude any day. The guys that women do have sex with aren’t some mythical jerk monsters—they have a range of attitudes, qualities, and that make them able to get what they want, whether it’s a one night stand or a committed relationship. Some of them might be dicks, it happens, but most of them are just men who have something that women find attractive.

    A lot of the commentators on this site also seem to think that women only ever have sex because (1) they were manipulated, coerced, or raped and (2) they want to ‘rope’ a man into a relationship and…you know, babies (3) they want to take all of the man’s money, then marry him and screw him over by taking even more of his money. I enjoy sex and being coerced into a situation where I have to have it sounds sort of illegal to me. I pay for or split the bill on the VAST majority of my dates, as do most of the girls I know. I work, my partner doesn’t. I have no interest or using an innocent child’s life for financial gain or to artificially keep a guy around. And I’m far from celibate. Go figure.

    • Totally agree! I often find myself reminding male friends that women get really f*cking horny too. We have the same amount of fantasy, desires and lusts as men. I fully appreciate men who defend women’s rights and fight the trivialization of sexual violence against women but do also find that in the process we are portrayed as less sexual. This in fact empowers men in a damaging way- it makes us seem like passive recepticles – if men knew how deeply we lust for satisfying sex and how much we enjoy it they might actually feel threatened that they are not fulfulling these desires. Often when I talk to my male friends or friends of my husbands about sex I practically get high fives for ‘talking like a guy’ . What is that about?? I think that the problem could partly lie with women. We need to be much more explicit about sex, to get female porn directors to create images that we want to see- basically we need to get more vocal about sex to dispell the myth that men want more sex and better sex.

  43. Just wanted to post a comment and say that as a guy, I’ve always felt like you do on the subject, and I’m glad someone else is fighting the good fight.

  44. Here’s a quick outline of how I met my current girlfriend.

    We met at a poker game at a friend’s house. Had a fun chat, but she left before I could get her contact info.
    Aggressive action: Set up my own poker game a few weeks later. I called up friend to get email list of people who might be interested in playing. After she didn’t respond to the general invite, I sent a second follow-up email and eventually was able to convince her to come.

    She shows up to poker game:
    Aggressive action: I immediately pulled up chair next to mine and asked her if she wanted to sit and talk. We talked about shared interests, and I made sure to mention some interesting things I had coming up in the next week. We eventually settled on a hiking meet-up.

    She shows up to hike:
    Aggressive action: Playfully grabbed at her hands, tickled her, playfully teased her when she tripped and almost fell into me. Little things, but she later said that doing this made it feel much more like a date with a potential suitor than a hike with a friend. We agree to an official date.

    She shows up to date:
    Aggressive action: We go to what turned out to be a pretty loud bar. I pulled her closer to me “so we could hear each other better,” played with and massaged her hands, and kissed her soon after she began reacting to positively to things I said, rather than waiting and hoping for something at the end of the night. We set another date for her place.

    At her place:
    Aggressive action: Over the next couple of dates, I would go to her place, make dinner, watch a movie, etc. When things started getting physical I’d push to the point of her resistance, stop, start doing something else, and then try again later. When we reached a point where it was clear that things weren’t going to progress any further, I put on my clothes, promised I’d call her to set up another date, then left. By the end of the second date at her place, we were having sex, and oh yeah… she was stone-cold sober when she made the decision to have sex with me.

    Result:
    I’m now seven months into a relationship with a 31-year-old self-avowed feminist who can count her number of past sexual partners on one hand. Prior to meeting me, she hadn’t had sex with a guy that she hadn’t known for at least a year. Now she regularly and enthusiastically initiates sex with me. When I showed her this article and my response, she said that she understood the basic premise, but that there are guys in her past who she knew were into her and probably would have had sex or a relationship with had they been more aggressive. When I asked about her experience with me, she said that she knew at the time that she wanted to have sex with me, but that she was afraid that I wouldn’t respect her if we moved forward that fast… not because of anything I’d done, but because she’d been brought up to believe that girls who have sex early in the relationship are “sluts.”

    One of Merriam-Webster’s definitions for aggressive is: “strong or emphatic in effect or intent.” It’s just a mindset that asks, “How do I push this to the next level without waiting for it to come to me?” I think this is a demonstration of how to be aggressive without being coercive or manipulative and how to make opportunities happen for you instead of waiting for them to come along. Nothing I’ve said, done, or demonstrated here is coercive, manipulate, misogynistic, ignorant, or any of the other various adjectives that have been thrown my way.

    • I’m glad it worked out for you. But here’s the rub- you had no way of knowing, at the time, what was going through her head. The whole “When things started getting physical I’d push to the point of her resistance, stop, start doing something else, and then try again later” thing is a primary pattern for relationship sexual assault- just keep pushing till she gives way, never once talking about it (or did you leave that part out? It seems pretty important). Your train of thought was also the exact same as the standard rape defense, “I didn’t need to ask, I just knew.”

      That’s the thing with communication. You could be stepping way over people’s boundaries and if you’re not willing to openly discuss it, then you’re at fault. Why was it that you didn’t know why she didn’t want to have sex early on until some time later? That seems like a relevant question for you to have asked when met “resistance” rather than walking out the door and promising to call.

      You seem to have a very condescending attitude towards these women you know. All the sexual encounters you’ve described have this element where the woman’s sexuality is just dying to get out, and you have to be aggressive and repeatedly try to do her to overcome those actions of hers that say otherwise, all the while not communicating about any of it until well after the fact. You seem to see women as fundamentally incapable of knowing and communicating their own boundaries, they’re always just so repressed and need your constant pressure to know what they want. And seeing how you say you’ve never had enthusiastic consent on the first time, I’d have to say you appear to seek out woman who have these boundaries just for the fun of prodding them until they fall down.

      The great thing about enthusiastic consent is that it’s about when your partner says that they’re ready, not when they give in to you after constantly pushing up against “resistance.” It doesn’t matter whether she’s worried about her reputation or just doesn’t want to have sex, those are her reasons and she has a right to them. Learn the reasons, stop pushing boundaries and have sex when she can enthusiastically consent. I’m not sure why this is a controversial idea: ask the woman when she wants to have sex, then have no-pressure sex when she’s actually feeling psyched about it! What’s wrong with that as a model?

      • Wow… clearly I’m fighting an uphill battle here. Really, what is it with feminists and all the shaming language, accusations of sexual assault, and personal attacks? Is there no other way to make a reasoned argument? This is my fourth time posting here, and not once have I directed my argument at a specific person [that streak will end here] or made a denigrating remark… yet, after each comment I’ve made, in comes some hero screaming “well you must be coercive, manipulative, misogynistic, a jerk, etc., etc.”
        I’ve already said it twice before, but I’ll say it again, since it’s clear that it’s not sinking in… Whenever I feel like I’ve reached a woman’s boundary, I STOP! If I touch her in a certain way, and she grabs my hand and moves it somewhere else, I stop. If she says, “No,” “Not yet,” or “I don’t think I’m ready for this yet,” I stop. If she does anything but give me an obvious green light that it’s okay to proceed, I stop, and direct my attention to something else. Body language, “resistance,” talking and listening… if this isn’t communication, then what is? This isn’t me saying, “I just knew.” This is me paying attention to and reacting to what the woman is telling me. And “something else” is just that… something else. In the past I’ve played board games, video games, grabbed a drink, watched a movie, cuddled with the girl, talked, gone to sleep… whatever. Whatever it is I feel like doing that’s not sex. Most times, after doing something else for a while, the girl re-initiates physical contact with me… not the other way around. Yet you’re still here implying that I’m pressuring girls into sex, and practically assaulting them. What’s your deal?
        Honestly, you simply can’t judge my attitude or character from a handful of internet posts. I just spent the last three hours out drinking and dancing with two of the girls that I’ve hooked up with in the past. If I was a borderline rapist, I don’t think they’d be jumping at the chance to go out with me again. Do you?
        You need to grow up a little more. The world isn’t nearly as black and white as you think it is. The women I’ve dated this year are professionals in their late 20s and early 30s. They know where their boundaries are, and they’re assertive enough to let me know when I’ve hit them. 90% of the time I don’t. If anything, I have a reputation within my social group of being too laid back, and not being aggressive enough. I know a lot of guys that are aggressive, but they’re aggressive in a way that isn’t particularly effective in leading them towards sex and relationships. I still get laid more than most other guys I know because I present myself as a sexual person who knows how to navigate the sexual landscape without coming off as being too pushy, needy, cocky, or insecure. I love and respect women. I wouldn’t be able to have the kind of ongoing relationships with them that I have if I didn’t. But I also realize that no girl that I haven’t had sex with is going to just call me up and say, “Hey I’m horny… why don’t you come over and ‘jump my bones’ tonight.” Sure, after I’ve had sex with her a few times (and sometimes it only takes one time) she may say that… but not right at the beginning she won’t. If I want to get laid, even if only occasionally, it’s going to take some effort on my part. If I want to get laid a lot, then it’s going to take A LOT of effort. Them’s the breaks.

        • Have you told your girlfriend your opinion on feminists like her? Does she, also a feminist, always resort to shaming language?

          I didn’t accuse you of sexual assault, it’s just that if you were pressuring her into sex and she felt obligated to sleep with you, as is the case for many cases on non-enthusaistic sexual assault.

          You haven’t said anything about talking and listening. In fact, you’ve cut her agency out of your whole story. It wasn’t that she asked you to stop, you “encountered resistance,” much like an invading army. Maybe you changed this because then your story doesn’t seem as bad. Essentially you initiated sex until you forced her to tell you to stop, rather than asking straight up how she far she wanted to go that night. Then you waited an hour and tried again, as if she’d feel more comfortable after an hour of watching a movie. Then you did it again. And again, over several dates, never once asking her what level of physicality she was comfortable with. Every time, you pushed until she had to stop you, then totalluy disrespected that by pushing an hour later. On the first date, when it became clear that it wasn’t going further, you immediately put on your clothes and left. Nothing coercive or manipulative in there at all.

          I didn’t ask for details of your personal life. You started by saying that enthusiastic consent is not something that men should wait for beause you’ve never had it, then continue to give me stories of pressuring women into having sex before they’re comfortable, because these boundaries are socially ingrained and thus not valid. This is all I know about you, that you pressure women into having sex and never wait for them to be excited about it. If you use your personal life to make a point, people arguing against that point only have your personal life as a reference.

          It’s very true that it isn’t black and white. Pressuring women into sex by trying every hour for a few days isn’t always rape, but it’s sure a lot closer to rape than I think people in general are comfortable with. It’s because everything isn’t black and white that it’s important to wait for full, enthusiastic consent.

          Ah, how your story changes. Does your current girlfriend know how you spent that last few hours? For such a sexually conservative woman, you seem to have an awfully open relationship. And seeing as you apparently pick exclusively insecure and unassertive woman and then pressure them into sex (again, this is the only information you’ve given me about yourself), I think it’s extremely likely that they would spend time with you again.

          To bring it full circle, you argue against enthusiastic consent with “If I want to get laid, even if only occasionally, it’s going to take some effort on my part. If I want to get laid a lot, then it’s going to take A LOT of effort.” So, by effort, you mean moving aggressively enough to have sex with women before they consent enthusiastically. And you think this is the only way you can have sex a lot. And you think it’s strange that I think you should respect yourself, and others, more.

          • Wow, my second paragraph got bungled somehow, sorry. I meant that some sexual assault does follow that pattern, and without asking her straight up what her level of comfort was, how did you know she wasn’t feeling pressured or obligated into it? She might not have been, but you would have had no way of knowing that until after the fact.

          • Likening “meeting resistance” to that of an invading army is your interpretation. I too would have liked for DD to be more clear on what that meant for him, but you jumped ahead and made your own conclusions. If I was to do the same, I’d say you probably made up your mind about DD already by the time you’d read his first post.

            It seems it’s all semantics with you, Lee. Of course, with your fancy human sexuality course, you’ve got the lingo down. You could win any argument even if you’re wrong. And, yeah, you’re wrong to attack DD the way you have, Lee. You’ve no interest in understanding where DD is coming from. This is just an exercise in domination for you.

            Asshole.

    • Anonymous Male says:

      DD,

      I think what you outlined sounds like a reasonable set of things to do in building a dating relationship with a particular kind of person.

      I wonder if she sees the history of your relationship the same way. Unless she tells you what exactly made the difference, you won’t really know what made the difference. I know when courtin’ my wife I did a lot of things to get her to like me and build on the attraction. Based on what she told me later, a lot of those things didn’t make much difference, and some of the things I wasn’t even aware of are the ones that made the biggest impact. What you remember as ‘what worked’ may be totally different from what really ‘worked.’

      There may be a classic post hoc fallacy here. “I did X, Y, and Z, and then she had sex with me, so it must have been the X, Y, and Z that did the trick.”

  45. kind of silly… but yeah I was mostly nice and got laid a ton. Hey guys want a tip on getting laid? Be over 6 feet tall and in shape

    • So all the women just jumped on you. Because that is what we are debating here. You never initiated a kiss, never initiated sex? The woman initiated everything. Or in other words: Was it like an Axe commercial? Because if it wasn’t then you are a date rapist and a jerk. That is the feminist view.

    • Most men do not fit this criteria nor can they control how tall they are, this tip makes little sense.

  46. @R.W. Thanks for having a clear head on this topic. Yes, being meek and timid is not going to get you the girl, nor is being a douchbag, dickhead or asshole. I think it is a elegant mixture of confidence, respect, vulnerability and humility that will ultimately win you the prize of a warm bed at night. Men can use their tools like manipulation techniques or passive aggressive power games, but at the end of the day, the men who use those tricks need to take a close look at themselves and ask if they are the man they want to be.

    • Oh. So men just need to transform themselves into the “elegant mixture” you describe to “win” “the prize”.

      A. The idea that “the girl” is something you “get” is objectifying and misogynistic.

      B. The idea that men need to cultivate and display personality traits women approve of in order to earn the privilege of sexual expression is misandrist and highly gender-normative.

      So you bought the whole sales pitch about gender roles hook, line and sinker, huh?

      • The article is about gettig laid, and while no one has an obligation to display traits that other people approve of, you will generally find that you have more social success if you do. So I’m not sure why this comment upsets you so much. You do have to “earn” the “privilege” of sexual expression insofar as that means the privilege of having sex with people who are under no obligation to have sex with you. In other words, if you want to have sex with someone, you have to do something to get them to want to do it. That’s true of both men and women. You can’t expect to just go up to someone and demand sex because you feel you are entitled to it. So, yeah, it is something you earn. Women also have to “earn” it by being sexy, flirtatious, attractive etc.

        • I’m frustrated that some folks are still acting like sex is something to be “won” and that there are highly specific elements that will work all the time if you have them.

          If you and another person are mutually vibing on each other, that’s all there is to it. You won’t vibe on everyone. I won’t vibe on everyone. It’s the ones where there is some level of a connection that matter, and it’s not about a particular formula.

      • “B. The idea that men need to cultivate and display personality traits women approve of in order to earn the privilege of sexual expression is misandrist and highly gender-normative.”

        Spot on Morgan!

      • Morgan- here’s the thing, all animals on the planet and in the sea have some kind of courting etiquette to capture attention of the opposite sex. It is our biological nature to flaunt what we have. Women do it, men do it. I am not hating on men. I am suggesting that they use grace and vulnerability to entice a woman, because we need enticing. Women measure a man by what he can provide for her, both mentally and physically. It is rooted in our biology. Most men derive a great deal of satisfaction from being able to protect and provide, and most women derive a great deal of happiness from nurturing and nourishing. I did not create these rules but I sure do enjoy when a man demonstrates his “worth” to me. How else can you weed out the good ones from the bad? ( Again, I am not talking about material demonstrations, I could care less about that)

  47. A guy doesn”t have to be a jerk to get laid, but it sure helps- there’s plenty of demonstrable reason for saying that.

    Emily’s essay itself lends evidence that being a jerk (to get laid) is at least fairly common; would it be so common if it didn’t work?
    Why does it work?
    Probably because humans seem to want what they can’t have, abandoning a greater amount of judgement to get it. In a dynamic where the woman is doing the choosing, she’ll often ignore better judgement to gain what she thinks she can’t have- hence the guy’s negging, the mild insults, the no calls.
    The more attractive a woman is- or at least a woman who has been fawned over because of her looks- the better “being a jerk” works.

    That’s why, as a woman’s attractiveness ascends the 1 through 10 scale, it’s increasingly likely that she’s with a jerk.

    I DON’T BELIEVE women when they say that all they want is a sweet, considerate man. They only say that because they think their mother must be listening. They’d never listen to Dad, since he’s a patriarchal putz, after all – and she’s emPOWered – even if Dad might have some idea of which guys are sincere and which guys are players.

    Poster “Colin” will eventually find someone, maybe when she’s about 30. The sad thing is this: the more attractive this woman is, the less worthy she is of “Colin” ‘s affection. At 30, she’s ridden every painted pony on the sexual merry-go-round; while I reject the notion of calling such a woman “sloppy seconds” because of her sexual past, she’s going to bring alot of emotional baggage that “Colin” will have to carry.
    After all, “all men are jerks”…
    right?
    You’re partly right dear lady- in the case of the 10% of men whose existence you actually acknowledged, some of whom you rewarded with sex.

    • Do you have a study demonstrating this? I feel that everyone takes it on faith that women like jerks, but even anecdotally this isn’t true.

      Colin is a jerk- he doesn’t have to be and might not always be, but right now he’s choosing to be. He’s taking no responsibility for his self esteem issues and projecting them onto others. He thinks that he needs women to have self-esteem and objectifies them as providing self-esteem- this is, in my opinion, even more of a jerk move than the stereotypical jerk objectifying women as sex objects (at least that’s honest). He blames everyone around him for his problems and thinks that other people should fix them. This is a reasonable working definition of “jerk.”

      However, you’ll notice that he isn’t successful with women. Nor is any actual jerk I’ve ever met. The few who are hot enough to get with women anyways end up unhappy because women didn’t magically solve all their problems, and they end up settling down with women with just as poor self-esteem as them.

      Women like men who run their own lives and don’t want to use a woman as an emotional crutch. Every respectful, responsible man I know who likes women and takes control of their own life is now either living with or married to women who are awesome cool and crazy sexy, myself included. Stop blaming your problems on women, it ain’t them.

      • I wish there were a ‘like’ button on this site (sigh, internet addiction), as this is probably the most ‘real’ and logical comment I’ve heard on this thread, and it doesn’t put down either gender. I’ve noticed that men like the same thing in women. Being desperate and bitter doesn’t get anyone anywhere. Been there, done that, made me miserable–and I’m a very attractive woman. Self esteem is one of those advice staples that’s always easier said than done, but man, does it make a difference.

      • Colin is a jerk because he’s not a “natural” with women. That’s about what it adds up to.

        From Colin’s self description, he sounds like an interesting person, steeped in the arts and well-educated.
        One would think- now that we’re forty some years after the sexual revolution, that a woman-some woman- would use her empowerment to look over the shoulder of “Mr Natural at it” and go for the type they all SAY they want.
        Nope.
        The old “man risking rejection” paradym works as well as ever- feminist empowerment not withstanding.

        To answer your question- no I didn’t do a study nor did I draw a conclusion from a study, but they do exist and my assertion rings true.
        It must, since feminists rail against it…
        and Emily took the time to write her “brother” about it.
        Perhaps you should ask what study she is using as ger own basis, no?

        • Read my post again, Colin being a jerk is a choice he is making. I never said it’s because he isn’t good with women, it’s because he thinks he needs women to have slef-esteem and as a result doesn’t see women as people.

          Education does not make someone a good person.

          Actually, the whole point of women’s sexual empowerment is that they now like who they like. That doesn’t generally include whiny jerks. Now people who think that they know what’s “best” from women, and who they really “should” like (sense of entitlement much?).

          Ah, the old Intelligent Design Argument, “just because I can’t prove it doesn’t mean it’s not true.”

          Feminists rail against people who are manipulative and coercive assholes. These assholes are also extremely unlikely to have satisfying relationships or a lot of sex because people don’t like manipulative and coercive assholes who don’t take responsibility for themselves. Emily is writing because she cares about her brother.

          Emily isn’t making any sweeping generalizations about an entire gender’s attractions. She’s saying “Lots of people have sex without being an asshole. Have sex. Don’t be an asshole.” I’m not sure why this is controversial. 90% of men have sex at least once a year (Kinsey Instititue) The overwhelming majority of men aren’t assholes. What part of this do you disagree with?

          • “Feminists rail against people who are manipulative and coercive assholes.”

            Yet the women with the most choices-those most attractive- consistently reward such men (or men who pretend to be assholes) with sex.
            You obviously don’t believe me. I suggest you reconcile your belief with the fact that feminist bloggers/leaders continually try to somehow ban instruction in PUA (or at least make such men social pariahs) or construct laws making any sex that may result “rape”.

            Pretty strong measures in dealing with a problem that you say doesn’t exist.

            I wish you were right Lee. I don’t think you are.
            Just for the record-and not that anyone asked- I couldn’t be bothered in engaging with any sort of deception or coersion to get sex.
            I’m too lazy and unimaginative, I guess.
            Sooner or later even the dumbest blonde (sorry, I couldn’t resist) will figure out you’re a liar or tire of being coerced.
            I doubt I could keep up the act for very long, and- like so many have already said- I’d rather have enthusiastic sex than merely consensual sex; and I get it.

          • “90% of men have sex at least once a year (Kinsey Instititue) The overwhelming majority of men aren’t assholes. What part of this do you disagree with?”

            If a man is only getting sex once a year, that only means he’s got a lack of money rather than a lack of confidence, and I doubt that he regards himself as sexually successful just because he ejaculates into a woman on an annual basis.

          • Lee, let’s say you’re right that the men having the most sex are jerks. But the non-jerks can still have a reasonable, satisfying amount of sex. They’ll just maybe be sleeping with 20 women in college instead of 200. I think most men would be OK with that, and it doesn’t require them to be a jerk at all.

        • Colin is whiny, desperate and has low self esteem. I say that with compassion because it’s not his fault that he has issues, but it is his responsibility to change. Women don’t avoid him because he’s too nice, they avoid him because he’s needy, angry, self-absorbed and has no genuine interest in them.

      • sue bridehead says:

        I am very disappointed to read this second-to-last sentence. Boo.

  48. Getting laid has almost nothing to do with how nice you are or how big a jerk you are. Confidence plays a big role, but there are plenty of confident men in this world who don’t get laid. In my experience, the biggest determinant to how much sex you’ll have in your life is how aggressive you are about pursuing sexual opportunities with women. You can be the nicest guy in the world and still get more sex than you could ever handle if you simply learned how to flirt, tease, touch, kiss, and talk to women in a way that made them feel good about themselves, while aggressively moving the relationship toward a place where it’s possible for the two of you to have sex.
    Having said that… this article is misleading and downright disrespectful about how sexual relationships actually play out among men and women. If you’re in college and not very experienced with women, the chance that you’re going hear a stone-cold sober woman giving you a sustained, enthusiastic “YES!” to the question of sex is non-existent. I’ve dated, kissed, and/or made out with close to a hundred women now, and have probably had sex with about a quarter of them. The most enthusiastic response I’ve ever heard from a woman was, “sure,” to the question of “do you want to go to bed?” and that was after nearly three hours of fooling around on two separate dates. I’ve lost many sexual opportunities to not being aggressive enough (as told to me by the women themselves, after some time had elapsed), but I can’t think of a single time where I missed out on sex by being too aggressive. I can immediately think of two or three cases where I pushed myself well out of my comfort zone before getting a hard and fast “No,” and in each case the girl called me back at some later date intent on setting up another meet-up.
    I’m sure there are plenty of GMP readers who are good men and are hoping to leverage that into meeting the kind of good woman they feel they deserve. GMP should really consider offering these readers some good, solid advice on how men should go about meeting these women. This article isn’t it.

    • The Wet One says:

      You Sir, are a genius. I bow to your superior courage and prowress on the battlefields of love.

      I never figured out how to do that. I just put up my money and went from there. Still, by the numbers, I was with more ladies than you. No regrets on that front. 😀

    • Maybe this is just my experience and the men that I know, but most men do get an enthusiastic yes. My current partner initiated sex the first time and was happy to do so, as have many girls I know.

      Why would you settle for anything less? I want women to be excited about having sex with me. I haven’t missed out on opportunities because women I like tend to speak their mind. If I’m not moving the relationship forward and they want sex, they tell me. Respect yourself. Do you really feel that you can only have sex if you’re aggressive at the right times, say all the right things, get women drunk, and act in a coercive and manipulative way (if you’re not being coercive and manipulative, I’m not sure what your problem is with the above article)? Do you feel so undesirable that you don’t seek out partners who enthusiastically want you?

      • You’re implying an awful lot of things about me that I never spoke to in my original post. All I said was that if men want sex with women, they should be aggressive about pursuing sexual opportunities with women. I added that, in my experience, waiting for around for a “stone-cold sober woman giving you a sustained, enthusiastic ‘YES!'” is a losing gamble. I never said anything about getting them drunk, saying all the right things, or being manipulative or coercive, so I’m not sure where you’re getting your information from.

        The problem I have is the article is that the author presents one extreme — the coercive, manipulative jerk who can only get laid through borderline sexual assault — and contrasts that with another — the “nice” guy who waits for “an enthusiastic, excited, sustained [‘YES!’]”. But it’s a false dichotomy. Consensual sex between two adults can and most often does begin in ways that don’t match these two extremes. Most girls, especially those of college age, aren’t going to give such obvious signs that they’re willing to sleep with a guy for fear of being labeled a slut.

        If the author was serious about teaching her brother how to get laid without being a jerk, she’d tell him to aggressively pursue the opportunities that present themselves, to understand objections a woman might have with sleeping with a guy “too soon,” and how to address those objections in a way that’s genuinely respectful or both his and her needs. A guy can easily learn to do this in a way that doesn’t turn him into a jerk, but also doesn’t leave him on the sidelines waiting for things to just happen between him and a girl.

        • The first issue is that this is exaclty what the author is saying. She’s saying meet people, have consensual sex, make it good. So when you disagree with her by saying that this is in no way what dating is like, it’s reasonable to assume a few things:

          1. You, as you’ve claimed, have never had a sober enthusiastic yes despite having sex with 25 women. Again, this might be my experience, but most college-age women I know are pretty damn psyched about sex. If you’ve slept with 25 women and not a one called you up stone sober and said, “I want you to come over and jump my bones now” then you’re either absurdly unlucky, deliberately pick women who aren’t assertive, or are coercive and manipulative. Following general laws of probability, if no girl has ever enthusiastically wanted to have sex with you, then the latter two are true and you need to value yourself higher and find women who do want you. Alternatively, maybe you don’t seem trustworthy enough for women to not be afraid of you thinking they’re a slut.

          2. You don’t think that, as it says in this article, just being respectful and not coercive and manipulative is not good dating advice because more aggression is required. Again, this is selling yourself short. Many women want to have sex with you, if you think you have to aggressively hound them until they shrug and say “sure,” then it really seems you don’t think very highly of yourself. If you think that men have to go massively out of their way and aggressively pursue women instead of living their lives and following their passions in order to have sex regularly, then you can’t think very highly of men and men’s sexual appeal. Let women can come to you sometimes.

          To address your points, the author did tell her brother to puruse opportunities, just in a respectful way, and to respect women’s decisions of when they want to have sex. Then, in your last paragraph, you accuse her of not doing so. So it seems like there’s a lot more there that’s maming you upset than what you’re claiming. I’m guessing that you want the author to validate your decision to pester women into sex rather than just living your life and choosing women who you respect and who are sexually assertive.

          I know there are a lot of presumptions, but then you’ve haven’t said anything in your last reply to make me question my original ones.

          • typicalBozon says:

            “If you think that men have to go massively out of their way and aggressively pursue women instead of living their lives and following their passions in order to have sex regularly, then you can’t think very highly of men and men’s sexual appeal.”

            Well I know I don’t 😉

            By your logic I’m pretty much a walking contradiction. I’ve never in my entire life had a woman call me and say “I want you to come over and jump my bones now”, in the mean time I’ve managed to peruse an extraordinarily unique career, I’ve been to every continent more than once, I play 4 instruments 2 of them proficiently, I’m an avid cook (food is kind of a big deal for me :D), brew my own beer (and soft drinks some times), I’m a giant video game, animation, and intercultural comic nerd and I’m working on learning to read 2 additional languages.

            number of partners? 1, I waited for her to initiate, and when she finaly did she told me that me NOT doing it “made her feel like a rapist”. So while I’m sure there are many factors that lead a man to get laid “living their lives and following their passions” is certainly NOT one of them ;).

            Not that Ill ever change who I am in order to chase something as trivial as sex but the whole “women will naturally come to you if your just not a douche bag” is definitely NOT the norm for all of us -_-.

            But I guess this is where I tell you I’m in my late 20’s and you tell me I’m just a kid and it will come with time right? <_<

            • Where’s the contradiction? I’ve met world travelers with great self-esteem, and I’ve met ones who hate themselves so much that they feel being the best traveler around is the only way to feel good about themselves. There’s no correlation.

              I didn’t say that everyone will have at least one woman who’s really excited to have sex with them, I just said that if in 25 sexual encounters DD didn’t find one then he’s beating the odds with a vengeance. How he hasn’t managed to find one partner in 25 who enthusiastically wanted to have sex is totally beyond me, unless he deliberately picks unassertive women to pester.

              Alright, that was not normal behaviour for your former partner. Feeling like a “rapist” for initiating sex (provided it was done respectfully) is very likely due to deep personal issues on her part. Not women in general or culture, or on yours, but on hers. Sounds like you’ve moved on, so why still feel bad about it anymore?

              So here’s the issue- it really is the norm for most of us. 80% of American men 18-34 have sex at least once a month. You’re not one of them. It might be bad luck, but probably not. It might be the entire culture, but then why are so many men, particularly men with high self-esteem successful? The responsibility for change lies with you, so take a look at yourself. I’m not saying that it’s neccessary for you to have sex once a month, but if you want to, think about what you need to do to be more appealing.

              In the course of living your life and following your passions, traveling and playing instruments, you’ve met a lot of women. That’s step #1. Step #2 is being the kind of person people would date. I know you from a few paragraphs and I can already see that this is where you’re going off the rails. You don’t think you’re sexy, or that men can be sexy (see your first sentence). You are arguing in support of a guy who thinks that aggressively bothering women into bored sex is the norm for human relationships. You’ve got a bitter streak and blame the world for your problems. You’ve traveled the world and have no doubt seen people who can’t afford a meal to eat, but still feel whiny that you’ve only had 1 sexual partner (lots of men have zero, not including men who are too disabled for most types of sex). You want me, a total stranger over the internet, to agree with you that the world’s treating you badly when life dealt you a hell of a better hand than 90% of humans. You have some holier than thou going on, “Not that I’ll ever change for something as tricial as sex” when we both know that this entire thread is about sex and clearly neither of us thinks it’s trivial. Do any of those seem like attractive qualities? And if I can tell that from three paragraphs, think of how long it takes the women you know to figure it out.

              Being a respectful, confident, compassionate person isn’t something that can be faked. If you’re angry at women, angry at the world, over-entitled, close-minded, insecure, it shines right through you. If you think that the only way you’d be worthy of love is to stop living your life and aggressively chase and bother women like DD, then why do you expect women to have a higher opinion? You have overentitlement and misogyny where you should have personal responsibility.

              So hell no, I don’t think you’re still young (I’m 24, myself), and I don’t think that life is going to just throw a woman at as if she was a random agent of fate rather than a real person who makes her own choices. I think that if you’ve met so many women and had so little success, it’s time for you to admit that you need to drop the poor-me attitude and start doing what you should be doing to be a more appealing prospect. Start with self esteem.

              • “80% of American men 18-34 have sex at least once a month.”

                I googled this and couldn’t find the reference. Care to help me out here?

                • It was in the textbook of a human sexuality course I’ve taken, but I left that book at my office. So yeah, I am actually sorry for posting a stat without being able to back it up. But here are some good internet resources on sexuality:
                  http://www.iub.edu/~kinsey/resources/FAQ.html#frequency
                  Highlights:
                  up to 43 percent of single men 18-24 have sex monthly
                  up to 53 percent of single men 25-29 have sex monthly
                  up to 74% of partnered men 18-24 have sex monthly
                  up to 80% of partnered men 25-29 have sex monthly
                  up to 96% of married men 18-24 have sex monthly
                  up to 98% of married men 25-29 have sex monthly

                  90% of men have had sex in the last year (compared to 86% for women)

                  Also, keep in mind that these statistics are getting old, applying to 1994. However, if anything, 1994 was a more sexually conservative time than now.

                  My statistic was rough, and probably a few percentage points too high, but I think the point still stands that it is by far the norm to have some sexual activity.

              • typicalBozon says:

                wow… I don’t even have quotes big enough to highlight all the stuff you “know” about me that I didn’t say, and isn’t true.

                I’m quite sure I didn’t blame anybody else for me not getting laid, in fact, I don’t think I even said i was upset about not getting laid, and I KNOW I didn’t “blame women” for it. Im also sure I never said anything akin to “zomg my life sux, woe is me” so I don’t know where you got the idea that I was miserable, cus that’s certainly not the case.

                All I meant to point out was “Being a respectful, confident, compassionate person” isn’t 100% of what it takes to get laid, it’s only part of the equation (unless your a douche bag ;)), otherwise all of us would have women banging down the doors ;).

                And as far as douche bag’s moves go, I’m quite sure telling people if they aren’t getting laid once a month there is something wrong with them is pretty high on that list.

                … and as for the “so why still feel bad about it anymore?” comment, um maybe it’s because when somebody you care about tells you you made them feel like a rapist you really want to know why so you don’t do that to OTHER people you care about 😉

                • You are under no obligation to respond to me, or even read my posts. You wanted to bring your personal life into a defense of DD’s aggressive and coercive tactics (read his later post about how he first had sex with his girlfriend- his description of his pressuring her to have sex and denial of her agency is a chilling description reminiscent of the battle of the somme- “Squad hands have met heavy resistance”), not me. If you put something on the internet, it will get criticized.

                  You say I’m wrong, but I have no reason to believe you. You could bring more examples from your personal life in, but then you might, like DD, be digging yourself a hole. It’s your call.

                  Here’s why I feel you don’t take responsibility. You’re posting in defense of a guy with very little respect for when women want to have sex. You think that there’s some formula to getting laid (maybe 75% being a respectful confident guy and 25% high-pressure tactics) which implies that you buy into the vending machine mentality- women are something you can “get” by having the right combination of strategies. You also appear to have little self-confidence as you think you’re somehow missing the magic ingredient (from the context, is it aggression?). If you haven’t had sex because you have high standards or are too busy, own it. However, you clearly feel that you want to have sex, but have been unable to, and were asking me how you’re not having sex when you’re just such a stand-up guy, that reeks of entitlement and insecurity. Why, when you’re so well-traveled and talented and generally awesome, aren’t women banging down your door? It couldn’t be the fact that you’re insecure (because you’re so awesome and feel the need to tell people on the internet about it to prove that actually confident men don’t have sex), it’s because you haven’t adopted the universal formula to get laid! It’s because all those men who say that just being a genuine, happy person is enough to find sexual partners must be lying to you!

                  I actually clarified that there’s nothing wrong with not having sex. I just said that if you’ve wanted to and are having trouble, it’s your responsibility to do something about it, because it is very unlikely that the world is going to change. That is your insecurity coming out. I don’t think you’re a lesser man for not having sex, but you clearly do. So, if you want to have sex, figure out what the problem is and fix it,

                  I can’t think of a single way in which that could have been your fault in any way. Again, it really sucks, but I think your reaction to it shows some insecurity.

                  • typicalBozon says:

                    I’m just sayin gettin laid takes work. Like DD, you gotta be willing to put in mad time and effort to set the conditions and show persistent interest for a sustained amount of time, “just not being a genuinely good person” is only 1/3 the battle.

                    and the only reason i spoke up is cus people should know that just not being a douche bag isn’t going to compensate for sitting on the side lines. getting laid takes SERIOUS effort.

                    • You realize that my issue with DD isn’t that he puts effort into meeting girls, it’s that he thinks the only way to have sex is to pressure them into it instead of waiting for when they can enthusiastically consent. Enthusiastic consent is the core issue here. And yes, if you think that high-pressure tactics are the “work” you need to put in, then you’re selling yourself short.

                      I’d say it takes risks, and it helps to work on yourself, but dating is fun, not hard work. If you see a woman as a job, with special stages to continuiously move towards sealing the deal, then it just seems that you should work on your own self-respect so you can actually just have fun on dates and not worry if it takes two dates or ten until she’s ready to enthusiastically have sex with you.

    • Maybe if you change up your strategy, you’ll get something a little more enthusiastic than a “sure.” ‘Cause your approach right now sounds a lot like the misogynistic, manipulative, aggressive, and ignorant methodologies that Emily is trying to combat. You might even find you enjoy sex more when you’re sleeping with someone who, ya know, actually acts like they want you… who thinks you’re more deserving of a “yes” than just a “sure.” I DON’T KNOW JUST A THOUGHT.

    • DD’s comment above is the most sensible, reasonable thing I have ever heard on this site. Its the only thing that accords with my experience.

      @Lee and @Julie: Typical feminist bullshit. Most women expect males to be sexually aggressive. They expect dominance. They don’t initiate. There is tonnes of evidence this is the case. Read a fucking romance novel. Watch a movie or a television show. Read Nancy’s Friday’s My Secret Garden. Read it carefully. Almost all the fantasy’s are from the POV of a passive women, reacting to what her lover is doing. Including the lesbian fantasy!! So even when a woman imagines herself with another woman, she thinks of herself in the passive role.

      Your world view is delusional. I don’t even know why your part of the debate.

      The reason we know that women expect us to initiate is because THEY TELL US. Over and over again repeatedly they say things like:

      “I expect men to initiate”
      ” If a guy takes to long to make a move, I lose interest” (this I have heard 3 times)
      “I want equality in the relationship but in bed I expect the guy to be dominant” (I heard this from a very assertive woman)
      “Don’t tell me you want to kiss me….just do it”

      I have even had a weird interaction where a women wanted sex and I didn’t so she tried to guilt me into initiating sex with her. Even in this situation where a woman wanted sex she had to figure out a way to get me to initiate it because she didn’t want to do it herself.

      • I stopped reading after “there is tonnes of evidence, read a romance novel.” if you are citing romance novels as empirical evidence about healthy sexual relationships, you might want to go back to school and take a couple classes in research methodology. research novels and sporadic anecdotal experiences always make for the best empirical generalizations. #sarcasm

      • Speaking for myself, there’s a point where assertiveness becomes a turn-off, and it’s pretty easy to pass that point. Is it flattering when a guy comes on to me? A little, but if this is my first interaction with the person it’s more skeevy than anything.

        Cripes, I’m pretty submissive myself, and dominant men are still a turn-off to me. Perhaps one of the reasons that I wound up with the guy I did was that when we initially met and I told him to back off (I was dating someone else at the time), HE DID. Had he pushed things at that time, I doubt I would have continued to give him the time of day.

        I think the more important issue though is that the more work you do to ‘convince’ a woman to have sex with you, blurrier the line between consensual sex and rape. It isn’t about which method will get you laid more, it’s about which one is more respectful of women. And while I’m still just speaking for myself, I much prefer a man who respects me to one who doesn’t.

      • Okay. Dude. First of all, you used romance novels as a source. That discredits your entire argument.

        Second, you clearly don’t understand what Emily is saying here: she doesn’t mean that a man shouldn’t ever try to initiate sex; she doesn’t mean that men should just wait around for a woman to call and ask them for sex. What she means is that whoever DOES initiate sex, whether man or woman, should a) ASK and b) actually LISTEN to whatever response is given. And the only way for the sex to be good for all involved and truly consensual is if the response is an enthusiastic “YES.”

      • Friend, as a ladyperson I do appreciate when men initiate things or show signs of interest in me before I decide I’ll sleep with him. But those things all come before sex, before my enthusiastic, “Yes!” It means at the party where we are flirting, and you’re reading my interest in you right, by all means take the initiative to touch me in a flirtatious way, maybe take the initiative to kiss me if it feels right, or maybe you just take the initiative to say you’d like to see me at X tomorrow night and get my number. Waiting for my “Yes!” to have sex doesn’t mean you are completely paralyzed and stuck discussing Doestoevsky with me until suddenly the urge to have sex strikes me like a bolt of lightening and I’m tearing at your clothes. There is a whole wonderful, flirtatious run-up to having sex that you miss if you’re busy carting drunk girls directly to bed for lackluster, bored sex that she was too out of it to really care whether she did or not.

  49. – Men will do what it takes to get laid.
    People only have a problem with it when men start mimicking the actions of the a**hole.
    – Improving your success with woman means taking risks, which sometimes means being perceived to be an a**hole, creep or weirdo.

    • What are you talking about?

      I’m a man, and I don’t cross people’s boundaries for sex. I’m in control of myself and take responsibility for my actions. Don’t group us all into one category, most of us are honourable, decent people. I neve understand why so many men on this site have such a low opinion of men. I’m lked around by my brain, not my penis.

      People have a problem with it when it crosses other people’s boundaries. Coercion and manipulation isn’t cool, and is often illegal. If you think you need coercion or manipulation to have sex, you must hate yourself. Work on some self-esteem. Like most men, women have sex with me because sex with me is good.

      It does indeed mean taking risks. The biggest risk is to speak to women, being upfront and courageous about the fact that you’re attracted to them, being respectful of their space, and accepting with courtesy if they’re not interested. All of this requires self-esteem, and none of it requires manipulation or is particularly creepy. Again, if you think you have to be a creep to be successful with women, that’s your low opinion of yourself, not theirs.

      • The only way to know if you’ve crossed a boundary is to cross it.

        Just because woman may see these men as creeps, doesn’t mean the men in question are.
        You have men who won’t even bother approaching a woman for fear of being seen as a creep,
        you don’t have to do much to be seen in a negative light.

        • Take a course on assertive communication. I’m serious- knowing and respectingyour own other people’s boundaries is a life skill that goes well beyond meeting women. If you can’t figure out socially accepted boundaries and aren’t willing to actually ask other people what those boundaries are, then you’re going to have a lot of problems in life. Ask women if they want company, if you can sit down at their table, what they’re looking for, if they want to be touched. Take it from me, it sets you apart from the crowd who thinks that women can’t actually be communicated with like normal people, and shows confidence, which is sexy.

          Those men are what is called “responsibility dodgers” and self-defeatists. If their approaches to women are typically labeled creeps by many different women, then they’re doing it wrong. If they approach women where women can’t get away, such as corners, hallways, on the bus, in lineups, show sexual interest before they even know anything about the woman in question (showing they have no standards), or just start grinding on the dance floor, they’re being creepy and need to learn how to talk to women as people. They need to take responsibility- the problem isn’t women or culture, asmost men have sex, but them.

          If their approach isn’t creepy but they’re worried it is, then they have such low self-esteem that they don’t want to try and just rationalize to themselves why they didn’t try.

          • There are no socially accepted boundaries, just people who think their way is the only way.
            I’ve known guys like that, could never be assertive, always asking question and needed someone’s permission.

            A woman’s word isn’t law, just because she’s labeled a guy as a “creep” doesn’t mean he is.
            Men should go out and throw caution to the wind because they’ll be seen as a creep no matter what they do.

            • There absolutely are- personal space, degree of intimacy in conversations, respectful of others’ decisions- cornerstones of civilizations. The aggressive and manipulative behaviours outlined above are way over these basic boundaries. In addition, if it’s not clear that you’re going to go over a boundary, adults ask first. Testing a boundary because one doesn’t have the communication skills to ask is only acceptable in children.

              You are a guy like that. Aggression, manipulation, passivity, passive aggression, the blame game- these are all equally not assertive. Assertivity is knowing your own and others’ boundaries and being able to communicate them firmly.

              As for the last paragraph, this is further evidence that you fall into one of the two types of men I described. Yes, occasionally a woman will label a noncreepy action creepy. Some people might also not like you for no good reason. Some people will steal from you, and some will insult you. That’s life. For men with self-esteem, it’s not this traumatic event you make it out to be. If men are dissuaded because their actions are every now and then misinterpreted, it’s because they’re looking for an excuse to not live their lives.

              However, if many or most women see your actions as creepy, Occam’s Razor that bit of information and you’ll find that it’s much more likely that you, not them, have the distorted social standard. This is even more likely because you don’t take personal responsibility for your own actions (i.e “men will do anything to get laid” not “I will do anything to get laid”) and think aggressive communication is assertive, two traditional hallmarks of creepy guys.

              Take responsibility. The world isn’t going to arrange itself around your social expectations. If you are not socially successful, while most other men are, this means that your social strategies have to change.

              • – Just because YOU think someone is crossing a boundary, doesn’t mean the person on the receiving end feels the same way.
                There are guys who can’t believe i would greet woman with a hug and kiss on the cheek.
                To them i’ve crossed a boundary, to the woman it’s normal.

                – Adults YOU KNOW ask, there’s a reason one of the many complaints about men is that they’re not assertive.
                Asking can you greet a woman with a hug/kiss would put you in that category.

                – Occasionally when a woman labels a noncreepy action creepy, she will then mention it to her friends or on the internet.
                So that guy is officially known as “that creepy guy” or “loser”.
                It’s called social proof and sometimes it can bite you in the a**, a majority of people will take the word of someone they know.

                – Yes guys will do anything to get laid, some will even take it to an extreme.
                It’s all about the results and guys will follow the men with it.

                – Everyone isn’t using the same strategy, it’s about getting from point A to point B.
                Some men go the path of the “a**hole” and some men go the path of the “good men”

                • Asking IS assertiveness. Look it up. Assertive communication does not meaning psychically knowing what everyone’s boundaries are, it means being able to express your own and ask and listen to others’. And yes, I think it’s good form to ask anyone if they would like to hug the first few times, before it becomes a habit, as some people have different levels of comfort with physical contact. What’s to lose? If they actually want to hug they’ll say yes. Your equation of asking with passivity implies to me that you don’t ask because you’re afraid they’ll say no. You’re not psychic; right now you have absolutely no way of knowing if you’re actually creeping someone out or not.

                  As for your friends, either they’re way too involved in your business or are trying to politley tell you to stop being so creepy to mutual female acquaintances.

                  Occasionally you’ll get passed up for a promotion too. Life is hard, and sometimes bad things happen. But, again, if you’re actually not being creepy and have self esteem, it’s not a huge deal.

                  Nope, you will do anything to get laid, and you avoid taking responsibility for that by pretending that it’s a gender trait. I wouldn’t do anything to get laid. Nor would most men, who are in general ethical and respectful of potential partners. Most men also have a lot of hobbies, interests, and jobs that get in the way of being laid all the time, which they choose to have. These are all choices we make. You choose to be ethical or not; your Y chromosome doesn’t do it for you. Own it. You don’t speak for all men, and you don’t know them. Stop hiding behind gender roles and misandry.

                  Personalilty and character are not strategies. This isn’t Diablo, there aren’t specified paths on which your personality must develop. Again, take some responsibility. If you’re being labeled a creep all the time and it’s impacting your social or love life, noone’s going to change that for you but you. You can imitate “nice guys” (ie. guys who think they deserve sex for holding a door open) or jerks all you want but it’s not going to change a thing until you realize that your life is your own. You don’t have to follow one of two social scripts to have social skills. You just have to realize that other people’s boundaries are as important as your own, whether you agree with them or not. I’m a stranger on the internet; if you want to keep blaming everyone else for your problems, it’s no skin off my nose. However, if you want to actually see some of those problems fixed, take out a book on assertive communication and learn to respect yourself and others.

                  • – Asking is not assertive.
                    You’re looking for an answer and that answer fuels your next action.
                    – If they don’t initiate the greeting i will.
                    People will not ask a person how they’d like to be greeted. the person receiving the greeting has to be the first to initiate it to turn it in their direction.
                    – Hug/kiss on the cheek is only creepy because of the person doing it, not the act itself.
                    – Men will do anything (good or bad) to get laid and curry favor with woman.
                    – When did i say that I was being labeled a creep ? I’m not.
                    What i’ve been saying is that men are labeled things like “creepy” or “weird” simply because of something woman/people find bad or uncomfortable about them, it can be anything.
                    – Someone with a lack of social skills isn’t spontaneous, for them just starting a conversation with someone is an uphill battle.
                    – I never said people’s boundaries aren’t important, i said that they aren’t gonna sit their waiting for you to ASK THEM to break through their boundaries.

  50. It never fails to surprise me that the same men that complain about manipulative women will defend to the death their right to coerce/manipulate women into sex and openly mock enthusiastic consent. Even when a woman openly ask them to do so.

    • @Lori Day who’s wondering were all this animosity is coming from.  I don’t think it’s as much animosity as much as it is frustration.

      For a lot of men Sexual Morality is seen as luxury for the wealthy.
       
      Some of the commenters here obviously feel  that Women have this wealth of Sexual Capital that allows them to be Judgmental, Aloof, Discerning and dare I say “HIGH & MIGHTY”.

      While we poor men …(sarcasm)…are tasked to either sacrifice our sense of Nobility or face sexual starvation.
      DoucheBag Ladies Man or Social Anorexia?   The choice is yours…

      I don’t think women will ever truly understand social starvation on the same level as a man. So a lot of the “Helpful Advice” coming from women tends to be interpreted as condescending lecturing from a  Privileged Outsider.  

      With that said…
      Collin and 8of10 for your own sake, please learn to love your own lives 1st then worry about women. Cuz it seems to me that you guys are waaaay too much in love with self-pity & helplessness to ever let a Women come between you and your pity party.

      I mean you can fall in love with misery ya know, and when you go out with misery no other women will do!

  51. If I may weigh in on the topic from a gay male perspective (though perhaps not entirely representative), I have had my share of “hookups” and one night stands over the years. But I’d trade them all in for a repeat of the few, very few times I have had a peak experience–when love, not just sex, was part of the equation. I have even had what I call a “burning bush” experience, tantamount to Moses’ encounter with God on Mount Sinai. (I mean no irreverence or disrespect. There is no other way I can categorize the powerfulness of this experience.) Guys, when your life approaches its end, you won’t be thinking about how much sex you got. You’ll be remembering the love, the real love, you have known.

  52. You know I can’t get over the whiny comments that started this thread off…
    It kinda reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

    -“Love is the ultimate expression of the will to live.”

    So love life or drop Dead.

  53. Excerpt:

    Forgoing these “techniques” requires recalibrating your hook-up goals to emphasize consent, respect, and yes, pleasure, instead of “scoring.”

    and there are methodologies that are just mean-spirited and misogynistic
    ==========
    TGMP seems to have a big h@rdon for PUA (pickup artists) community. The author sounds like a woman who got burned by some pickup artists.

    It’s always funny to me that the time when women get mad at pickup artists is when he REMOVES his titillation and excitement: i.e. he moves on to his next conquest. Yep: getting used hurts.

    As often as authors say the PUA is full of crap, the thing that seems to drive them wild the most is that the PUA community is so SUCCESSFUL at teaching men the basics of how to get laid with lots and lots of women.

    It’s not completely ethical, it’s not nice, but then neither is the environment into which men have been thrust.

    At one time divorce laws were fair. The person who committed one of the four A’s (abuse, addiction, adultery, abandonment) who was sued for divorce would cause the suing spouse to get the lion’s share of the assets, and custody of any children. If a spouse sued for divorce w/out just cause, then the other spouse got the lions share of assets & custody. This was a common sense arrangement that took to heart the pledge “till death do you part”.

    But, in walked feminists and changed the rules. Now, a woman can divorce for any reason whether noble (he’s hitting me & the kids) or ignoble (I’m bored–marriage is boring) and still expect to receive sole custody 80% of the time lavish child support awards, and in many states life-time alimony (so much for female independence).

    Feminist authors at tgmp have a point: PUA is very cruel and mercenary–no doubt.
    However, feminists will cease being hypocrites when discussing PUA when they acknowledge that PUA’s are simply mirroring the mercenary and cruel actions of the millions of women who execute divorce theft upon men and minimize his contact w/their children to maximize her child support.

    When feminists begin joining hands with shared parenting advocates and helping to right this terrible wrong which harms society and children (there are many dozens of scholarly studies which show dads are integral to well adjusted children due to the fact that dads parent differently) then they won’t be totally full of crap when talking about PUA.

    I agree that it’s bad for society what PUA’s do (just as what many of mercenary women due in divorce theft).
    But at least what PUA’s are doing is targeted at women. Aren’t we told every day that women are strong?

    The main target of divorce theft is not men but children. Children who (w/out dads) are MUCH MUCH more likely to grow up to:
    Have low educational achievement
    Have problems with drugs/alcohol
    Have less mature (or even dysfunctional) views on sexuality
    Get into trouble w/the law or go to prison (80% of prisoners of violent crimes come from fatherless homes)
    Be suicidal or depressed
    Enter into dysfunctional relationships
    Become sexually active at a much earlier age
    Girls become pregnant teens

    Until feminist authors start acknowledging the huge harm mercenary women are doing to children, then I suggest they stfu and enjoy their huge helping of JUST DESSERTS.

    I bet the author of this article is still pinning away for her pickup artist who left her gasping for breath and was probably the best time of her life.

    She’s not writing a letter to her brother, she’s writing a F U letter to the pickup artist that made her feel like a woman and moved onto another target. She’s going to make her considerate hard-working boring poindexter husband pay and pay for the fact that he shares a Y chromosome with the guy who used her (and she wished it could have gone on forever).

    • Feminists hate PUA because it is a relationship equalizer. It actually makes women want men (for the emotional titillation and excitement) as badly as men want women.

      Most women who have been w/PUA don’t complain about being manipulated or mistreated until the PUA loses interest in her. In other words despite his crappy treatment she gets mad when he breaks up w/her, or worse treats her like a 1-night stand despite all the bs pillow talk he gave her about her being “the one”.

      Many women think that if men are foolish enough to get married to gold diggers, he has nobody to blame but himself. Well, if women are going to put out simply because of bs pillowtalk, or a man passes a few sh1t tests or inserts a little drama into her life like simple techniques like “push pull” or “negging”, it would be just as accurate (if cruel) view to say she too deserves what she got.

      If women are going to give up their affections over so flimsy a reason, then they deserve to be plumbed if a guy knows how.

      To put it simply: since women get to do the choosing of which mate they will have, they are analogous to a lock, and men are analogous to a key.

      A key that can open many locks is a good key. But a lock that is opened by many keys is a poor lock.

      If feminists want PUA’s to be less successful, then they should instead instruct women to stop “giving it up” for such superfluous reasons.
      PUA can only grow. In fact, I would expect that it will easily grow 5=10 times in size in the 4 years.

      • John, let’s not pretend that PUA’s sociopathic remedies are anything other then payback and hate sex.

        • But it works. The moment PUA tactics stop working, the PUA community will dissolve. This is the main problem with the feminist anti-PUA doctrine. PUA offers a long list of things that can be done, follow these steps, do these things. The only thing feminists have provided so far is long lists of don’ts.

        • But 8of10 has a bit of a point. People have no problem telling men that if they are complaining about the types of women they are getting with they need to quit messing with them. Why not tell women the same?

        • I actually agree. But when society condones and winks behind peoples backs at millions of women’s merciless mercenary positions in romance at divorce theft, then feminists are turning a huge blind eye to a huge part of the problem when talking about PUA.

          Feminists are trying to continue to enjoy huge social and legal privileges without the fallout consequences (like why should men be loyal and honorable when there is no reward or even ACKNOWLEDGEMENT).

          It’s all wrapped up together. If feminists would join in campaigns in shared parenting, or start talking to women to stop giving it up just because a guys jerking actions make their gina tingle I would join in their campaign against PUA. But as it is, this is just a HUGE case of just desserts.

        • Budmin:
          To clarify: I somewhat agree with you except for the venomous nature you attribute to PUA.
          It’s a very mercenary view of sex & relationships. I think that is the best way to describe it.
          I don’t think it’s payback, or hate sex.
          If it is hate sex, then why do women feel so bad when a PUA dumps them?
          No, it’s not about hate–it’s about being mercenary. It’s about men being dumped into the shark tank which the dating world has become.

          The thing is: nobody is calling out the female sharks who lead guys on to drain them of their resources, or who marry a hard-working boring poindexter just to engage in divorce theft, possibly while cheating with him on the side during the whole marriage.

          To say that millions of women aren’t also doing what PUA’s are doing is just naive. Furthermore, lately PUA’s do exactly what a large sub-set of women do, but these women receive far less shaming than the male equivalents do.

      • Thank you John D for proving what I have always thought is the ugly core of PUA’s. I am going to cut and paste your comment every time someone tries to argue that PUA’s are actually good guys who just need some help with women.

        Hate sex, indeed. Have fun.

        • Do you know anything about John Ds association with PUA?

        • First off, I’m not a PUA participant. I’ve read some pages and I find some of the insightful.
          I’m happily married for 8 years.

          However, I am not an advocate per say of PUA.
          You’re free to post anything you want, but it wouldn’t be indicative of anything. It’s not like you’re getting a quote from the president of the pua club.

          My point is that if you’re going to call out a subset of men for being mercenary, cruel and manipulative of women when it comes to romance, then to avoid hypocrisy you need to also call out a subset of women (100’s of times larger than PUA community) for doing the same to men and more importantly with DEVASTATING consequences to children.

          I agree that PUA is cruel, manipulative and ethically on the border.

          But so is the actions of millions of women who practice divorce theft. Where are the calls for ethics and morality when mothers push to minimize dad’s time w/their kids to maximize her child support?
          Where are the calls for morality and ethics when mothers who cheat on their husbands still get custody?

          Feel free to paste whatever you wish. But, please don’t think you’ve WON something.

          Nobody has won anything in this nightmarish corrupt system of family and marriage being put onto the extinct species list.
          However, feminists pushed for the dissolution of the social contract between men and women.
          To now complain that it isn’t rainbows and moonbeams for all women 24/7 and lay the blame at the feet of a small minority of men seems pretty disingenuous.

          There is nothing I would like more for marriage to be a life-long contract and kids to grow up with two parents and loved. I would like nothing more for PUA to be a thing of the past.

          It’s all very sad. Please keep thinking you WON, that’s what started this whole mess.

          • From your comment, I gathered you were an aspiring PUA but if you are not, I stand corrected. I am sorry you feel that all women are evil witches (you are married? hmm) but nothing I can say will probably disabuse you of that notion, so I won’t bother. Have a nice day.

            • I am sorry you feel that all women are evil witches (you are married? hmm) but nothing I can say will probably disabuse you of that notion, so I won’t bother. Have a nice day.
              ======
              Lol, I dare you to find any such comment I made about women.
              I was making a simple point. The “meat market” of today is a direct result of the instability in marriage and divorce laws which make it TOO easy to divorce (and particularly incentivize women to do so).

              The current status has vastly benefited a HUGE subset of women who are both cruel and mercenary and merciless in their stance for romance. To not expect men to adapt is both unrealistic and naive.

              If we’re to talk about PUA, then we need to talk about the reasons it even exists. If divorce theft wasn’t a reality, then PUA’s wouldn’t even exist.

              But, whatever it takes in your mind to make this about bad men, and not the group of bad women who number 100’s of times larger (and exert their detrimental harm upon kids rather than adults).

      • But I already WANT men. Why do men think women don’t want them?

        All these comment make me feel really sad about how men seem to view themselves in this world: too weak to make decisions on their own about their behavior (‘if women didn’t fuck assholes, we wouldn’t be them’ seems to be a common refrain), so undesirable that no women would want them despite being one of the ‘good ones,’ they have no choice when it comes to with whom they mate b/c women are the only ones who hold that power, etc.

        It’s sad that with all this distress over assumed emasculation, in reality it looks like you guys are doing it all to yourself.

  54. Great article. I’d elaborate that the best, most energizing, explosive, beautiful, heart-opening, simultaneously orgasmic sex comes when both people are enthusiastically intimate. This kind of sex happens when there’s not even a question about consent, when it’s clear that she’d be more pissed off, offended, and hurt if I DIDN’T follow through with getting it on, now that she’s so hot & bothered.

    Gentlemen, the key here is that we must learn to be excellent flirts, must learn how to arouse female sexual desire through masterful flirtation and foreplay.

  55. AnonymousDog says:

    A long list of ‘don’ts’ with too little practical, actionable, affirmative advice. Most men, most young men, are not naturally jerks or douchebags. Why assume that your brother will be one? Are you assuming that he will have incentive to emulate the ones he meets?

    Wouldn’t it be more productive for all concerned if you were to introduce him to some of your unattached friends and give him a chance to be the respectful, well intentioned young man that he naturally is?

    • I had the same reaction… “So, where’s the advice on how to get laid?” The title suggested that such advice would be presented, but instead it was a long list of “don’ts.”

      Sure, “Don’t be a jerk” is always good advice, and acknowledging that women can be jerks too is evenhanded. But as a friend of mine often says, “How will this get me laid?”

      • My best advice on how to get laid? Stop making “getting laid” your sole purpose when talking to a woman. We can smell it a mile away.

        • My best advice on how to play a tennis match? Stop making “playing a tennis match” your sole purpose when talking to a woman. We can smell it a mile away.

          And your advice if copyleft wanted to play tennis with someone else would be , to stop making “playing a tennis match” your sole purpose when talking to that person?
          The guy wants to find a tennis partner to play a game of tennis

          • Are you equating sex with tennis? Really? Because false comparatives aren’t very useful.

            My advice would be to avoid asking complete strangers to play tennis, but to rather try to have a conversation and gauge an individual’s interest in tennis, and then specifically playing tennis with him, before asking that person to play tennis. I might also suggest he avoid going into a situation assuming that every person he will talk to that night won’t be interested in playing tennis with him, because he already knows how they all are, because they aren’t individuals, but one large heaving mass of groupthink.

            That would be a start, I suppose.

            • AnonymousDog says:

              KJN,

              What works for a woman won’t (usually) work for a man. Since men are usually expected to make the first move, women have the privilege of waiting for men to come to them, whereupon they can choose to play or not. Since most men won’t be approached by women in most situations, they don’t have the privilege of being passive.


            • My advice would be to avoid asking complete strangers to play tennis, but to rather try to have a conversation and gauge an individual’s interest in tennis, and then specifically playing tennis with him, before asking that person to play tennis.

              So you agree with me, good.
              Cos this below was barking
              My best advice on how to get laid? Stop making “getting laid” your sole purpose when talking to a woman.

  56. The Wet One says:

    The easy way to get laid without being a jerk is to pay for it. All honesty, all upfront on the table. No muss, no fuss and everyone gets what they want.

    Right? Right?

    Yep, after reading the comments above, I’m definitely posting this. This will help out the young lads when they’re wandering around in the wilderness wondering how the hell do I get laid without being a jerk. Took me ’till my 30’s to figure this one out, but I encourage the young’uns to proceed this way, assuming it’s legal in your jurisdiction of course, if not, well, lobby your politicians for change so you can get laid. It’s worth it! It helped me in my life tremendously and I was able to make up for some lost time (not much but some.

    There’s more than one way to get laid.

    Word of advice, stick to indoor prostitutes. Cleaner, safer, more private and more likely to be free of the negative aspects of prostitution. Remember, the Internet is your friend in all things pooning. You’ll find what you need there.

    Now, if that wasn’t a good man move, I don’t know what is. I get horny young lads off the backs of shy young women. I got young men laid (or helped them there anyways). I put money in the pockets of women who want money. Everyone was honest and upfront about their desires.

    We all good now?

    I can’t wait to hear the replies!

    • I actually kind of agree with you. I have mixed feelings about the whole subject but if a guy is single and so sexually frustrated that it is ruining his life, then visiting a professional may be his best option. I went to college in a California town about 2 hours from Reno and I know that a lot of guys took trips to Reno for the legal brothels. I can’t believe I’m advocating it but, there you go.

  57. This is a great piece. Thanks for writing it!

    And to all the guys complaining that if they don’t pull these moves, they never get laid: maybe you need to figure out how to talk with women about what they want. It’s not a question of backing off. It’s a question of pressing pause, checking in, and going from there. It might sometimes mean backing off, but it can also mean changing what the two of you are doing and finding something that works for both of you. If you can’t have that conversation with a sex partner, maybe that’s the reason you’re not having much luck.

    • Will you pay for the sexual harassment fines during the learning period?

    • Well said, Charlie. Pressing pause and checking in, as you put it so well, is the honorable thing to do and makes for a clear conscience later. It’s all about respect. “Are you sure?” or “Are you OK with this?” are simple questions to ask, even in the heat of the moment.

      • Press pause and checking in === pressuring her to have sex. You date rapist you. You shouldn’t pester her to have sex according to feminism. She is supposed to want it and have her own agency. She need to enthusiastically consent. Good luck waiting for that.

  58. This is a solid piece and a lot of good advice. I like your approach, like those above have said it seems really balanced. Hopefully some of this practical advice can make a difference for both men and women. I’m very glad to read this kind of thing since it’s not been that many years since I was in college and I remember much of what you write about. Some guys just lacked respect and I’d always hear about it from girls around campus. One of my younger sisters has just started college so I hope she encounters decent guys who think the same way advocated in your article.

    • So these guys who lacked respect, did they have lots of women interested in them? This is probably my largest grief with this kind of advice. In theory it should work one way, this is the society we would like. In practice it often turns out the people doing the exact opposite of the moral rules are the ones coming out on top.

      • I hear what you’re saying and I’d sometimes wondered about that myself. The big example for me from my college years was my first college roommate. A real “ladies man” to use the cheesy old term, he always had lots of girls wanting to be with him. He took full advantage of this, but of course also treated each woman with disrespect and borderline abuse (and I mean abuse). A lot of people in our dorm really respected him for his way with women, and I’ll admit that early on I lost some respect for these girls who went running to him whenever he said he wanted to be with them.

        Then, after a couple of years of college, the lawsuits started (no joke) and the stories floating around campus about how he behaved with them once he got them alone basically made him radioactive socially speaking. His way caught up to him. A few years ago there was a site called “Don’t Date Him” or something like that. A list of men to be avoided, though it was eventually sued out of existence other than as an advice site. On a hunch (years had gone by) I went to the site and searched my old roommate. Literally hundreds of entries about him, including one that indicated he’d claimed to have gone to Harvard when we really went to a local state college. The girl who wrote that got him fired from his investment job in Boston for lying on his resume.

        Point is, he did really well with the ladies in terms of one-night stands. Some guys were very jealous. I wasn’t because I arrived at college fully intending to find “the one” and I did. We’re still together, having met at 18, in our mid-30s now. I remember my roommate turning to me one day (we got a long great despite our utter differences in the ways I’ve spoken of) and said (paraphrasing of course), “Eric, I hope whoever you end up with sucks your dick every night. Because I know how you think of women, and I know how I treat them, and I know right now I get what I want, but over the long term you deserve the best from whatever girl is lucky enough to be with you.” This was his (somewhat demented) way of saying that he knew how he treated women was wrong, and he knew that I would end up doing well over time.

        I met my wife soon after, we’ve been together since. His life is still out of control (I honestly have always assumed he’d been abused in some way, given the ease with which he abused women). His way is a good way for a series of one night stands and superficial relationships that end up in conflict and misery (not to say that all one-nighters or casual relationships have to, if there is respect they can be great I’m sure). But if you value women over the long term, treat them as equals and partners, and show them that your time together is about being together and not about scamming her out of something, then things turn out well over the long term. I think it’s just a matter of what a man wants in life. Can the abusive player types get laid a lot in college? You bet, but it’s neither necessary nor the right thing to do.

      • The goal of the piece is not how to get laid, it’s how to not be an asshole. Is coercing and manipulating women to have sex with you getting “out on top?” Are women human beings worthy of respect or just objects to get to a goal?

  59. Truly wonderful, insightful, well-written piece. I may show it to my son.

  60. Henry Vandenburgh says:

    Somehow, I don’t think having a dog chain on your wallet is a good way to start, though…

  61. What Mike said.

    That, and the same deeply held question I sometimes ask and sometimes don’t when I read these kind of flaming comment threads. Where does so much anonymously rocket-launched rage at female writers com from? I saw this as a very loving and personal letter from a sister (who has experienced the college meat market) to her younger brother. She clearly did not say “don’t have sex,” she simply mentored him in respect. What is so “feminist” or outrageous about encouraging respect?

    • AnonymousDog says:

      Where does the ‘rocket-launched rage’ come from? Frustration at having women bestow advice on us that does not bother to address the problems that we actually encounter.

      Most guys have no problem not being jerks. They have a problem figuring out how to approach women, they have problems finding women to approach, you name it. Too many women seem to think that those aren’t really problems, and just assume that men just need more help in not being jerks, and that if men could just avoid being jerks, they, men, would automatically have success with women. Not being a jerk is the easy part.

      Why shouldn’t I be outraged at the assumption that a man will naturally fall into jerkdom?

    • “That, and the same deeply held question I sometimes ask and sometimes don’t when I read these kind of flaming comment threads. Where does so much anonymously rocket-launched rage at female writers com from?”
      Because the advice is so often in the form of you are bad, stop being bad. And being good means not complaining when it is painfully obvious that the people doing bad are rewarded for it, while you doing good means you have no right to expect any kind of reward for it.

      “I saw this as a very loving and personal letter from a sister (who has experienced the college meat market) to her younger brother.”
      I read it as a backhanded insult under the guise of advice to her brother.

      “She clearly did not say “don’t have sex,” she simply mentored him in respect. What is so “feminist” or outrageous about encouraging respect?”
      She said that he should always be considerate and consider the womens’ feelings. I have also experienced the college meat market, and when it was closing time at the bars women didn’t show much consideration of who would respect their no when the chose whom to go home with.

      • You know, I would not just either men or women in general by the minority of people who hang out in meat market bars until closing time. Have you considered that might be a select group of people who probably are not making the most mature or responsible choices about dating and relationships?

        The vast majority of women are not out getting drunk and looking for random pickups in bars. They are in school, at work, volunteering, taking classes, involved in the community, at church, etc. etc. When I was in college, my friends and I were usually in class or studying or hanging out at a coffee shop or the library. Yes we did go to bars or parties once and awhile, but we were not sleeping around with random strangers. I never went home with a guy I met in a bar (despite getting plenty of offers). If you want to meet quality women maybe you should get out of bars and try to simply get involved in activities where single women are present. Then be assertive and ask them out. If you are just looking for random hookups then I can’t really help you, but I don’t actually believe it is that easy for guys to get random sex from strangers. The few times in my life where I’ve had a casual hookup, it’s been with a friends with benefits situation.

        From reading some of these posts I feel like guys are comparing themselves to a fantasy of some ideal man who can walk into a room and get any woman he wants with the snap of a finger. Are there guys like that out there? Maybe a few celebrities and athletes (even then, I’m sure they get turned down sometimes). But I suspect most normal guys struggle and they have a lot less sex than they would like. And even guys like Tiger Woods who can have any woman they want — they keep wanting more. They are still unhappy and unsatisfied. Look at Charlie Sheen — yeah he’s banging porn stars and strippers, but the guy is a miserable train wreck. At risk of being an armchair psychiatrist, his sexual acting out is almost certainly a way of dealing with deep-seated unhappiness.

        I could sit around and feel crappy about myself because I’m not as attractive as the most attractive woman I can imagine and I’m not a trophy wife for a billionaire CEO. I could sit at home and pine because I don’t have the face and body of a porn star or a model. What good does that do me? It would just make me miserable. Nobody gets everything they want in life — nobody. You play the hand you are dealt.

        We only have one shot at life so make the most of it.

        • Sorry, first sentence should be *I would not JUDGE either men or women in general

          • “I would not judge either men or women in general”
            Thank you Jill for point that out!

            At the risk of being an armchair psychiatrist, it seems to be that some of these commentors have suffered in one way or another in a way that relates to women. Because of that, they have transformed that hurt into cynicism, bitterness, and misogyny and now only speak in generalizations.

            So, since emotions are stronger than logic, and between the “back-fire effect” and “confirmation bias,” the people who wan’t to defend this article have their work cut out for them.

            http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

        • permanentlooser says:

          I think you completely missed the topic here (no offense), most dudes consider it pretty easy to get laid as long as they are willing to exploit another person. The issue at hand is how to ask for something like a “friends with benefits” arrangement withOUT being judged as manipulative or disingenuous. Most of the feminists I know consider the action of approaching a friend with a sexual offer rude and the idea that a man can freely submit such an offer to a female friend misogynist. The question being posed is how do good men propose sex to female friends without implying they don’t value the friendship as it stands, as this seems to be a genuinely common misunderstanding between good men and women. Like any form of communication, being genuine is only half the battle, the other half is figuring out how to get the other party to understand what the hack your saying 😉

          And for the record, yes there is a large pool of men who are largely successful in their sexual endeavors, many of them are “jerks”. The people asking the questions fueling this thread are those who are unwilling to become “jerks” to get laid.

  62. Very nice Emily. I’m sure your brother is more than thankful for having such a wonderful sister. I would like to be more like you towards my own brother….

    Sex is its own category to be sure. No other activity takes on such pure forms of rationalizations of interactions. This is my main beef with all of this. I understand the origins of the frail nature of sexuality. I don’t think we need to continue to speak as if we’re still in that place of origin. The pedestal we hoist sexuality on top of may no longer be the best place to put it. Sex is not love, or commitment, or compassion – though it sometimes / often times, an artifact of those very things.

    In my opinion, it’s time to move this thing forward.

  63. Maria Pawlowska says:

    Emily! I think this is an awesome piece – thanks so much for it. And Bruce is also right – women are just as sexual as men and if they openly want sex that doesn’t make them ‘sluts’. Or it shouldn’t anyway…

  64. Congratulations, Emily, on a beautifully balanced piece. I often wished, when I was your brother’s age, that I had a sister to call on for advice like this. Colin, 8of10 and permanentlooser; please try taking a step back and reading Emily’s post again. The gold in there is that women want sex too – just as much as men. It is after all, hardwired into each and every one of us. If it wasn’t, most of us wouldn’t be here, right?

    Henry, the asshole attraction thing has been pretty fully explored and it’s not that women are attracted to assholes, it’s that they’re attracted to confidence. I’ve found that women are more inclined to be attracted to confident, stand up guys than confident assholes. If you’re a stand up guy and you work on your confidence, you’ll be streets ahead of the ‘assholes’, believe me.

    Great sex is neither given nor taken; it’s shared. It is entirely possible to be a stand-up guy and have a fulfilling sex life with as many, or as few, partners as you wish while still staying honest and respecting yourself and your potential hook-up partner without resorting to manipulation, deceit, coercion or booze etc.

    It has been my experience that accepting a woman’s “I’m not going to have sex with you” or words or actions to that effect – I mean really accepting it on a deep level – and backing off at that point has later resulted in many a happy dalliance, invariably with the woman making the advances. Demonstrating genuine respect for your partner and their comfort – apparently – can be very sexy. Who’d have thunk it?

    I emphasize that this is not a tactic and must never be used as one. You have to genuinely mean it – women can generally smell your bullshit from miles away.

    Remember that women are sexual beings just as men are. Where it’s different is that (for the most part) the worst things that can happen to a man are the humiliation of rejection and perhaps a nasty case of ‘blue balls’; for women it can be horrendous physical danger. Ponder that. Please.

    • PS – Emily, I like your ‘dick moves’ term. A list of dick moves (for men and women) could, perhaps, make for another great piece from you.

    • AnonymousDog says:

      Sorry, Bruce, “work on your confidence” isn’t any better advice than “be yourself”. Nothing in the article, or in your post, for that matter, offers any positive advice on interacting with women beyond “don’t be a jerk”.
      You don’t have anything to offer the guy who isn’t a jerk, so why bother?

      • How to be confident when picking up women:
        Look women in the eyes. Speak of future goals with confidence, but do not be arrogant about past successes. Be honest. Treat those around you with respect, including waitstaff. Be interesting: have three or four “most interesting things about me” lined up for talking points – did you recently travel somewhere cool, have you read a controversial book, did you eat something really disgusting that turned out to be divine? If you start to feel out of your depth, remind yourself you’re one of the good guys, and therefore a catch. Don’t walk into a room assuming you know that all women in that room will behave in a specific way (i.e. are only interested in assholes, and won’t be interested in you) – believing that all women behave a certain way implies that you don’t see women as individuals, and we can smell it from a mile away.

        That’s a start I guess. Other ways to build your confidence in general would be to find something you love to do and excel at it – becoming confident in one area of your life will increase your opinion of yourself across the board. Stop living as though the world is keeping score: there is no life you “should” lead, only the one you want to lead – being confident in the choices you’ve made, in order to live the life you are living, is sexy as shit.

  65. “There’s story after story about on-campus sexual assaults, astoundingly high rates of date-rape, and even more terrifying estimates of unreported incidents”

    Most of it is propagated by the very same people who push the “yes means yes” enthusiastic consent model. Teh feminists

  66. If women would stop having sex with assholes, men would stop acting like assholes. The power is in the hands of women.

    Women, why you reward assholes with sex?

    • Exactly Henry, and while most are probably not sleeping with “assholes” in general, there is a fine line between being confident and being an asshole. Most often the women I know personally cannot tell the difference.

      The underlying problem is not men acting like “assholes” its women accepting and confusing it for “confidence”. and as much as the good men of the world will hold ourselves to a higher standard, the vast majority of men wont, and will continue to do as they please for sex, leaving us to pay the price.

      The real solution is to educate women on what constitutes confidence and even that women are attracted to confidence brings a prerequisite that men don’t have. It falls onto the women to prudently search out their partners for their behaviour.

      remove the prerequisite for confidence and there will be a level playing field.

    • “Like” or +1 take your pick.

    • Women enjoy sex with men whom are assholes, because it makes their vajinnies tingle. Assholes get their hamster all fired up & ready for action. Nicey-nice boys don’t do that for them. It’s an evolutionary thing. I didn’t believe it myself till I did a few experiments, and lo & behold, it’s true. Tease a girl, make her realize you’re not intimidated by her, that her beauty doesn’t scare you. Mix it with humor, a nice smile, a modestly high amount of confidence, sprinkle with some mystery & intrigue, heat with flirtation, and voila’–you will have pussy falling at your feet.

      • Funny, but I only get weak at the knees for men who are kind to me. I avoid sex with assholes like the plague.

        • Ever considered that you’re among the exceptions to the general rule?

          • How many “exceptions” do you need? There are women out there who like respectful men. Why isn’t that enough? These are the emotionally healthy women. If you want to be with an emotionally healthy woman, develop self esteem and learn to communicate assertively and respectfully.

            Just so you know, studies don’t actually show that aggressive or manipulative men have more sex. Studies actually have shown:

            1) People in equal relationships have more sex. http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/06/060419.sex.shtml

            2) Like attracts like (Byrne, Hahn and Hwang, Klohnen & Luo, etc., take your pick). If you think all women act alike, you will attract women who think all men act alike and have bad gender expectations. If you whine a lot, you’ll attract whiny women. If you take personal responsibility and develop self-esteem, you’ll attract women with personal responsibility and self esteem.

            3) People with high self esteem scores are more likely to have sex. They are also more likely to do good things for the world. Ergo, being a genuinely kind person is statistically correlated with having a lot of sex.

            I think it’s amazing how ordinarily rational men continue to throw all statistics out the window and insist on their personal creed that they don’t do well with women because women like jerks. From a statistical point of view, the opposite is true: emotionally healthy women don’t like whiny jerks, and that’s why men who whine and blame women and are upset at women’s sexual choices don’t do well. There is nothing “nice” about guys like you.

            But, you know, you can always fall back on the anti-statistical point of view to avoid taking any responsibility for your own actions and social skills.

            • Wow. That’s a lot of inference you’ve made about me from a simple one-line question; pretty much all of which is wrong.
              I’m simply pointing out that Caterina’s stance on sex with “assholes” isn’t the norm. I can speak on this from personal experience because I am the former nice guy who is now an “asshole” and gets laid a hell of a lot more for it.

    • I’m sorry, what? It sounds like you’re saying men are so weak, they can’t even think for themselves. Is that what you’re saying?

    • Blaming your problems on “women” as if they’re a uniform group, and saying that they have to change their sex lives for you to take responsibility for yourself and not be coercive and manipulative, IS being an asshole. There is absolutely no distinction between you right now and the stereotypical hyper-entitled disrespectful frat boy. So if I were you, I’d be glad at this point that some women do in fact sleep with assholes such as yourself or you’d be straight up the creek without a paddle.

      • Blaming your problems on “women” as if they’re a uniform group…is kinda like blaming your problems on “men” as if they’re a uniform group.

        Your criticism is an indictment of the premise of this entire site.

        • The premise of this site is, from the horse’s mouth, “The Good Men Project is not so much a magazine as a social movement; an ongoing in-depth discussion that has by now involved millions of people, all getting back to a core question of “what does it mean to be a good man in these modern times?””

          The magazine is by and for respectful men who want to talk about personal ethics. There are a lot of commentators who don’t understand personal ethics and think that they have no responsibility for their own actions (“it’s women, it’s culture, it’s feminism that MAKES us unethical”). However, despite such commentators, I think the articles on this site are by and large grounded in personal responsibility and rarely blame gender groups for anything.

    • They’re hard wired to. Since before humans climbed down form the trees and started walking upright, assertive “asshole” males have been the ones most likely to ensure the survival of their genes. That doesn’t change just because of a few measly generations of so’called modern civilization. As much as humans don’t like to accept it; you can’t just reason away millions of years of biological instinct.

      • Anything goes as long as you don’t have any responsibility for your own actions, eh?

      • So where did all the non-asshole guys come from? According to your argument, every single freakin’ man on the planet should be a raging asshole because only raging assholes have reproduced since males climbed down from the trees 12 million years ago. Obviously that’s bunk

  67. Well, the Nice Guy crew is here. At least Colin made it a point to mention that he is a bitter misogynist because girls didn’t have sex with him. Yeah, I’m sure the reason you didn’t get laid is because you didn’t “take what you want”

    • Clearly, you don’t even know what misogyny is. Also, yeah, it really is.

      • Taking what you want from another without their express consent is, at best, morally questionable and, at worst, rape. Sharing something you both want is another story altogether. All that’s required is an honest conversation.

        • If every man waited for women to say, unequivocally, “YES, YES, YES!” then there would be 99.9% less sex going on than there currently is. I’ve never heard a story from anyone I know about a woman telling them without any ambiguity that they want to have sex. Not one. “Do you want to come back to my place?” “Oh, okay.” “Sure” “Why not.” “That could be fun.” etc, etc, etc. The percentage of women who will give a direct answer about having sex with a guy is lower than the interest rate at the fed.

          • Hi Colin,

            I appreciate your frustration, but I have to say that I all your comment makes me feel is sad. I don’t know what kind of women you go out with, and I believe you 100% that this has been your experience. That being said, your comment is not an accurate reflection of the kind of women I know (and the kind that I am), or the kind that many of my straight male friends like to date. They (we) are vocal about their desires when they feel comfortable and excited about a new partner.

            Emily

            • I’ve given up trying to go out with women. I’ve fully accepted that women my age — early 20’s — will never EVER want to be with someone who cares about their thoughts, feelings, and happiness. Unfortunately for me, I am unable to be a jerk in order to get laid and get dates, so I inevitably don’t get any. Even though women SAY they want someone who is nice, thoughtful, and will elicit their opinions on things; they don’t. Instead of just deciding on what to eat and if the woman doesn’t like it, tough, I’ll ask them what they want and if they don’t like the choice or whatever, I’ll try to fix the problem so that they ARE enjoying themselves.

              This appreciation for the experience of the other person results in me having dozens of female “friends” and not a single romantic prospect.

              This is, inevitably, where you respond and say that young women are immature and that women will be all over me when I’m older. It is great news to know that when women are young, they won’t even consider an intelligent, tall, and — dare I say — rather attractive man because instead of being a swaggering tool he is thoughtful and understanding. When they’re older, however, they’ll tire of having so much fun with the arrogant, backhanded, sleazeballs and be willing to settle for someone who actually has a heart.

              The sort of things I see men do on a regular basis to manipulate and demean women into sleeping with them is appalling, but it works. It is unfortunate that I can’t bring myself to do those things, because by being the nice, kind, thoughtful man every woman says she wants to date and sleep with, I am actually the nice, kind, thoughtful man every woman just wants to be friends with.

              • permanentlooser says:

                I am older, and most of my friends are older than me, and of the single ones among us, no, women are definitely NOT “all over us, now that we’re older”. It doesn’t happen that way. The sad truth unfortunately is that while the number of gender egalitarian “non asshole” men is growing, and being fostered more than it has in the past, most women simply choose not to be sexually assertive because they don’t have too.

                Most women simply don’t embrace feminism to the point where they feel comfortable kicking the “traditional male approach” to the curb, and since they are the oppressed, it is their decision when to adopt what. I’m sure at some point enough men will come around to the idea of “its better to be a lonely good man than a sexually experienced asshole” but we were simply born to early to reap the benefits the anti slut – shaming efforts of modern feminism. Hopefully the next generation fairs better…

              • GirlGlad4the GMP says:

                Colin,

                I hear your frustration, but it’s awesome that there are young men out there who respect young women. I have never, ever shared my body with one of the ‘jerks’, not at 20, not at 30. Nor would I ever sleep with a man who bedded numerous women. Keep being respectful, the right girls will come your way. It may take a little time, but they will see you. In the meantime, keep your eyes open, I guarantee there are alot more girls than you realize who are just looking to get a leg over too.
                Emily: the issue I see in what you are saying versus what some of the male commenters are saying boils down to words. In the case of sexual violence words are the most important factor, I agree. That said, sometimes “yeah sure” does really mean yes. Women, as they move towards their mid-to-late twenties are pretty explicit about what they want…girls in their late teens/early twenties, not so much. Because they are so worried about the opinions of their peer group, an emphatic yes is near impossible to get, even if that is precisely what they want. And sometimes, you are right, sometimes “yeah sure” is “I’m not sure I want to, but…”.

                So that being said, perhaps the letter to your bro (which is great, BTW) could include some degree of responsibility in double-checking. If a girl gives you a half-hearted response, it never hurts to just ask her if she’s sure, and let her know it’s okay if she’s not ready.

                ‘Cause yes, sex is best when both (all) parties are enjoying themselves!

                • You say the right girls will come my way, but I don’t believe you. I’ve been told that for years, and I still haven’t had that experience happen to me once. You know who tell me the most that I’m a great guy and that I’d make the perfect boyfriend? My extremely large contingent of female friends. What is a little time? I’m almost 23… I’ve given it “a little time.” Do I have to wait until I’m 30? While everyone else is having a good time, I’m stuck being unhappy because I can’t bring myself to do unsavory things because that is the only way to get any as a man.

                  I also hear a lot of talk about “confidence.” You know what’s a big confidence booster? Getting laid. Getting actual affirmation that you are attractive, desirable, etc. You know what is a huge confidence killer? Being exactly what women say they want in a man and not even getting a chance.

                  • Why would you want to be with a woman that doesn’t want you for who you are anyways?
                    Trust me on this one, there are more important things in life than getting laid.
                    After being rejected for a couple of years more one learns to stop wasting effort on things that can never succeed and start investing energy in things that can actually come to completion.

                    • Says the person getting laid. A few more years? Why is it that jerks have been getting laid and dating women since high school, and I’m almost 23 and I still have to wait a few more years?

                  • GirlGlad4the GMP says:

                    Colin,

                    I’d ask why you’re so focused on sex, but I got it, you’re 23. It’s ok if you don’t believe me, one day you will see my point. 8of 10 is right, you don’t want to just have sex for the sake of it, with someone who wants you to be something you’re not…especially if you’re inexperienced, it will ruin sex for you. Yeah you’ll feel good…until about 2 minutes after you ‘peak’.

                    What ISN’T clear in your postings is whether you want sex with a side of relationship, or just to mess around with girls in general. If it’s the former, then by all means, go and find her. Most young women are looking for sex in the context of a relationship.

                    If no-strings is what you’re looking for, I return you to the ignored comment I made about keeping your eyes open, as there are likely girls out there who want to blow off a little steam. I went to Uni, I saw it: exam-time was the best for random, consensual hookups…stress relief, as it were.

                    And stop focusing so much on sex (although I’m sure it’s difficult). A guy who thinks about it too much…well it comes across in their daily interactions, and it’s not attractive. Focus on rounding yourself out as an individual. Women like athletic men, women like men who play instruments, women like men who build things…learn new skills, make great grades, it’ll serve you in more ways than one.

                    • The only people who say there are more important things in life than getting laid and brush off not getting laid are people who are getting laid. Not getting ANY sex AT ALL is MISERABLE. I’d take totally random hookups, I’d take relationships, I’d take just about anything at this point.

                      You suggest I focus on rounding myself out… that isn’t something I need to focus on. That was the advice I was given in high school when I wasn’t getting any. I am a classically trained musician with almost 20 years of playing experience (yes, that means, I started playing piano at age 3). I am athletic; I am well read; I can converse in multiple languages; I own my own corporation. Those skills, and many more, are great, but they don’t make being alone and involuntarily celibate any more palatable.

                  • Dude I have never gotten laid in my life, ever. I am a few years older than you are. I just learned to stop putting energy into things that will never come to be.

                    • The Wet One says:

                      Colin, do yourself a favour and go see a pro. Sex isn’t as big a deal as people make it out to be. It’s best to learn it first time and have some fun doing it. See a pro. It’ll be money well spent. I know it was for me. Once I got the whole (gotta have sex thing) outta the way, then I was significantly more relaxed and cool about sex. Then hit up Plenty of Fish, make a great profile and date every woman who says yes. Your sex life will improve and you may even be happier. Maybe not (lotsa whackos out there after all), but you gotta do something different if you want things to change.

                      Read the book “The Game” too. It’s retarded in parts, but it does provide some basis for understanding what’s going on in the dating game.

                  • Hey Colin, would you sleep with a girl who whined all the time about how her sexy lady friends get all the attention at bars, and no guys ever notice her for her accomplishments? Who whined *so much* that her bitterness towards men seeped through her every word and made you feel attacked just for being a dude?

                    No. You wouldn’t. You wouldn’t be interested in talking to her for 5 minutes. You didn’t show up to get attacked, you showed up to have a good time. My guess is you’re in that boat, and the ladies aren’t interested in your bitterness. Clearly you have lady *friends*, and they’re probably like “oh bitter Colin, if he’d just relax and smile a little more, he’d be fine.” That’s what I say about my un-laid bitter male friends, and it’s what I say about my un-laid bitter lady friends. Bitterness is hardly ever sexy.

                    • The Wet One says:

                      Yeah, seeing a pro kills off this bitterness real fast. It helps too, just like Jessie says it would. It was definitely the case for me.

                    • GirlGlad4theGMP says:

                      Jesse,

                      You are right, Colin is so focused on sex (or lack thereof), it’s unattractive. He doesn’t realize the vibe he’s giving off, which is a shame, because he might genuinely be a good guy.

                      Colin: As for being them ‘them’ from the us and them of the getting laids versus not, I’ve also endured long periods of celibacy. I do understand how difficult it can be.

                      I’d have to point out that while I don’t like the idea of a novice (perhaps virgin) visiting a LEGAL sexworker, as suggested, it’s not the worst idea in the world. Nor is jumping on a dating/sex website and posting your needs. But if you do either, be careful, and be thorough about your position and your needs. Sexworkers can be very gentle and understanding, and that’s precisely what you should have if you’re new to the game. Nothing like a bad first experience to ruin your inital experiences. Same goes for non-sexworkers. If you explain your needs, there are women who I’m sure would love to help you out.

                      But, I keep going back to keeping your eyes peeled and your ears open, there are more ladies in your age group who are going through the same thing than you realize.

                  • You say that you have a lot of female friends, so let me ask you: have all of them only ever slept with jerks? has there literally been not one nice guy in the mix? There are plenty of nice guys and most of them have girlfriends.

                    I’ll be perfectly honest – my boyfriend is pretty great. He’s really what I consider a “nice guy” and that’s why I’m with him. He’s very respectful, very considerate, and just generally likes people.

                  • Colin – the more I read from you, the more convinced I am that you don’t feel that you’re worthy of enthusiastic consent from a woman, and you’re making your real world experiences fit this narrative in your head. People can become so addicted to the “high” of being a martyr (or the “NiceGuy” in this situation), that they subconsciously fight any behavior modification on their part in order to keep getting that “high.” In all sincerity, I really think you should speak with a professional.

                  • Colin,

                    Being nice is not the problem. I was a shy kid growing up and would never use manipulative methods to get girls. I am a ‘nice, respectful, and intelligent’ person, just like you say you are. However, I was with several women in high school and have had an attractive, kind and intelligent girlfriend since I was 18 (23 now).

                    Please take a very close look at yourself. Being a nice person does not exclude one from the dating world. Several people have noted that perhaps it is your bitterness, lack of confidence, and seeming obsession with sex that may be the problem. Or maybe, you are just boring. I don’t mean this as an insult, I just want you to understand that just being a nice person will absolutely NOT prevent you from attracting women. It truly must be something else about you.

                    The sooner you find out what that is, the sooner you can change it.

                    • It is hard to be confident when you’ve never gotten a yes ever. Am I bitter after losing the best years of my life being alone and now being so far behind the curve that if I actually get the chance to date, a woman is probably going to be repulsed by the fact that I don’t even know how to kiss? Yes.

                      How am I supposed to be interesting and funny, if I’m always worried they’re going to be offended? I see guys “playfully” tease girls all the time, but the couple times I’ve tried that have ended in disaster. I don’t know what the problem is, my friends don’t know what the problem is, my therapist doesn’t know what the problem is, no one knows what the problem is.

                  • You’re spot on in your observations, Colin. I can sympathize with your situation because, in high school, I was in your shoes. Then I wised up.

                    If you really wan’t to change your situation, you need to learn to adjust your tactics.
                    1. get laid- even if you have to hire a pro. Women in general are much more attuned to body language and non-verbal communication than most men are. Your biggest problem right now is that any women you meet can sense your frustration as soon as they meet you. You may as well have it tattooed on your forehead. There just isn’t any way around that other than removing (or at least greatly lessening) that.
                    2. Stop listening to what you female “friends” are telling you and observe what the do. It sounds like you probably already have, and that you’re intelligent enough to recognize the disconnect. The truth may not be pretty, but it is what it is.
                    3. Take what you learn and apply it to yourself. Change how you approach women. Buy some new clothes, learn to play an instrument, buy freaking motorcycle if you have to. Go somewhere outside your normal social circle and practice, practice, practice. If you haven’t already, visit http://heartiste.wordpress.com/ for tips. Best PUA site in the world, and it can even teach you a thing or two about human psych beyond the PUA field.

                    Don’t give up, man. And don’t listen to anyone who just says that “Someday, the right girls will come to you” bullshit.
                    They won’t.
                    Ever.
                    You have to be proactive. On the bright side, if you’re only 23, you’ve got plenty of time to still enjoy yourself. You just don’t have any to waste.

              • I’m much older than you and a bigger loser. Believe me, women will not suddenly become interested in you when they get older and more mature. You still have to pursue aggressively and get rejected routinely. The post here is just saying don’t rape any women, and don’t even get into that grey area of “almost rape”. Sounds like good and obvious advice.

                • The Wet One says:

                  Seriously Colin, pays your money and get laid. It’s easier on everyone and I won’t have to listen to you whine about your failure to take responsibility for your own sex life.

                  Of course, you’re probably in the States where taking responsibility of your sex life is illegal. In which case, I say travel to Neveda. It’s legal there.

                  Get to it and grow up some. I wouldn’t screw you either. Too damned whiny.

  68. So, he can have sex infrequently or almost never and be a completely stand up guy doing it! You know what feels good? Doing the right thing and getting punished for it. I’m sure your brother is going to look forward to those nights jerking off when he could be getting laid because he didn’t accept “okay, sure” because it wasn’t “OH MY GOD, YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!” I don’t think I’ve ever heard any story about a woman ever being so forthright and affirmative about having sex. “Okay, sure” is about as green-light as it gets.

    And you know how I know he won’t get laid? Because I don’t because at any perceived sign of uncomfortability with women I always back off. Instead of being aggressive and taking what I want, I’ll back off and then some douche will end up taking them home. Being an aggressive douche gets you laid when you’re under 30. Being a nice guy who cares about whether a girl feels comfortable does not.

    • Let’s not forget that he will be very happy to see the guy who cracks cruel jokes at his expense, about how worthless he is and how he should just go back to his basement and jerk off in the dark will have women flocking to him.

      It is funny how the men who are perceptive to the female fragile existence and frame of mind are the ones who have to pay the price. How about we see some advice aimed at women for once. Here is my suggestion. Ask your little sister, ‘How do you think it makes the guy feel when you come in after he has had it with being abused, kicks the living crap out of his bullies, and fawn all over the ones that got the beating they righteously deserved?’

    • permanentlooser says:

      ditto, I’ve never been a jerk, as a result, I’ve been mostly celibate (2 partners), almost 30 and dono how to change at this point. If I could tell a good kid anything as a good man it’s don’t waste your good years while ya got em, cus once there gone your either husband material or a manchild.

      • It might be worthwhile at this point in the debate to distinguish between people who think they are “nice guys” and people who honestly respect women. Readings these comments leaves me convinced there’s very little overlap between those two groups.

        The meaningful distinction is not whether your a nice guy or a douchebag, but whether or not you respect women. If you respect women (or people in general) you’re not going to fall into the douchebag category. Not being a douchebag, however, does not automatically make you respectful of others.

        Being nice doesn’t earn you the right to a relationship. You still have to put yourself out there, take risks, honestly talk about what you want and what you are looking for. You have to do all of that while being respectful to another. Really, niceness isn’t the important quality here. Honesty, compassion and self-esteem are all more important to treating another person as an equally valuable human being. Niceness is, in its own way, a manipulative strategy.

        I don’t think the author’s advice to her brother is to be nice; it’s to be respectful.

        • Astley Brown says:

          you’re acting under the (misandrist) assumption that challenging anything wrong about (some) women, automatically means you’re a misogynist. stop that. it’s not getting you any brownie points, and it’s totally a red herring, distracting from actual issues that need to be talked to on the male side of the fence.

          There is a huge issue with courting/dating/sex “rituals” (I honestly can’t think of any other way to put it). women are not still “liberated” as they claim. Nor are they so independent. Though they have picked up many male-like behaviors, there’s still no full give and take, unless it’s guff. Women still feel the need to project this “neither here nor there” attitude when it comes to sex, when it’s obvious just by our all being human, first off–and studies, that women want sex just as much as men, if not more. They’re still worried about coming off as “easy”. ESPECIALLY if they like a guy. So yes, they will pretend they aren’t totally into it (at times).

          I’m not suggesting that anyone go borderline rape (A Louis C.K. joke comes to mind) on the “off-chance” she might like it. Hell, I don’t even like the whole “asking” part. it should happen. There should be obvious chemistry. And if I have asked, it’s usually a “what do you mean ‘sure'” to that.

          But back to my original point. Stop bashing down your downtrodden counterparts, trying to lump them into some woman-hating group. They’re obviously not as lucky and optimistic as you–rather, deluded. So if they’ve got a bit vitriol flowing, do you know, that (and experts in the field note this), human contact, affection and sex is needed. Its required. But I guess you’ve never had to sleep alone when you didn’t want to, now have you?

          You’re like a rich man telling some homeless guy “go get a job” and blaming him for his plight when you haven’t even walked a yard in his shoes.

          • Women suffer a lot of negative consequences if they are perceived as “easy.” You shouldn’t be so quick to brush it off. One of my biggest fears about having casual sex when I was in college (along with STD’s and pregnancy) was how the guy would treat me afterwards – mainly, my fears involved would he brag to his friends and would they joke about me. I didn’t want a reputation as a slut, because that could stop quality guys from pursuing me. These fears stopped me from having sex MANY times when I was otherwise very turned on and ready for sex.

            Maybe things have changed a little with today’s hookup culture, but I don’t know. I think those fears are still valid, to a degree. There is no guarantee that a person you casually hook up with won’t treat it as a big joke, tell everyone about it or use it to score points with pals. (Women can do the same thing about guys they sleep with.) I wasn’t comfortable enough with myself at age 21 (or now, actually) to just say to hell with what other people think.

            There are plenty of men who WILL lose respect for a woman for being slutty. I believe often the quickest way to ruin the prospect of a quality long term relationship is to hop in bed with a guy too quickly. Once you are in “casual sex” category in his mind, you will be stuck there. Obviously, there are exceptions but you don’t know if THiS guy is an exception or not.

            Women as a rule would be much more willing to adopt a “free love” attitude and express themselves sexually if there were no negative consequences. But itmis foolish to believe that those consequences don’t exist, even in 2011.

    • Guys, I don’t really understand your comments.

      There’s a big distance between being an “aggressive douche” and “backing off at the first sign of uncomfortability.”

      Honestly, of the pieces I’ve read on the Good Men Project, this is one of the better ones. Emily admits up-front that women are every bit as manipulative and scheming as your average male date rapist, this is a far cry closer to the truth than anything written by Hugo Schwyzer ever, and is frankly refreshing on this website.

      And then you guys jump down her throat as though she hasn’t included that at all.

      This piece is written as a letter between siblings sharing experiences, not as a broad-sided attack on men.

      The fact is, emotional manipulation does exist, and it is not inherent to any one gender. That does not mean we should all go out and learn how to do it. It means we should rise above it.

      Maybe this is easy for me to say, I’m quite happy with my love life. But I also know that I have honesty, both about my intentions and my feelings, to thank for my successes.

      • permanentlooser says:

        “There’s a big distance between being an “aggressive douche” and “backing off at the first sign of uncomfortability.

        Honestly, of the pieces I’ve read on the Good Men Project, this is one of the better ones. Emily admits up-front that women are every bit as manipulative and scheming as your average male date rapist, this is a far cry closer to the truth than anything written by Hugo Schwyzer ever, and is frankly refreshing on this website.

        And then you guys jump down her throat as though she hasn’t included that at all.

        This piece is written as a letter between siblings sharing experiences, not as a broad-sided attack on men.

        The fact is, emotional manipulation does exist, and it is not inherent to any one gender. That does not mean we should all go out and learn how to do it. It means we should rise above it.

        Maybe this is easy for me to say, I’m quite happy with my love life. But I also know that I have honesty, both about my intentions and my feelings, to thank for my successes.”

        when I was 19 and in school, nobody told me how to ask without being a douche bag, they just told me not to be one. so since didn’t know what a positive approach looked like, only a negative one, I didn’t ask, because I thought, “better to not risk being that guy than to experiment in a way where I could hurt somebody else”. I didn’t say Emily attacked men, intact the piece is fine, I simply added advice I wish somebody had told me when I started collage. Because I “also know that I have honesty, both about my intentions and my feelings, to thank for my successes.” Which is why after roughly 5 sexual encounters, ill probably die with many female friends, and a past of mostly celibacy and regret.

        … I wish somebody had told me, so I offer my advice to him, in hopes he wont be left to the same fate… that’s all…

        • I guess I just don’t understand because there is nothing in your comment that seems to be actual advice (maybe I’m reading it wrong, I don’t know).

          When you say “If he does this he’ll end up celebate” it sounds an awful lot like “Emily is giving out patently bad advice.” Rereading your comment, I can understand that this may not have been your intention, but it’s what I took away from your comment.

          Is there any way you could post some solid advice instead? What would you tell her brother to do, instead of not to do?

          • permanentlooser says:

            “if you hit the cross roads between not being able to reconcile if your being a jerk or being sexually assertive, it’s better to ask for forgiveness than permission, because once you decide to sit on the sidelines for fear of being (that guy), you’ll never get off the bench, and nobody is going to tell you what a good man hitting on a woman looks like, so be rdy to make that choice and learn by being the asshole to a degree if you have too”

            It’s controversial, but id trade a past where at one point i was an asshole but being apologetic and knowing how to ask for what I want without being offensive, over the one I have now, destined to be the respectful guy who dies never knowing what it feels like to have a satisfying sex life.

      • “mily admits up-front that women are every bit as manipulative and scheming as your average male date rapist,”

        Where?

        • Sorry, copied and pasted in haste.

          Emily, no mily.

        • Um…did you miss this whole paragraph:

          “The pronouns in this essay thus far would suggest that I think only men can be coercive when it comes to sex, and we all know that’s patently untrue. We know male rape is a real issue, and that the stigma against victims can be excruciating. We know that women can lie and scheme their way into sex just as well as men. We know that insults to masculinity, epithets like “pussy,” or accusations of homosexuality can compel guys to do things they don’t want to do, just to prove a point. The toolbox may look different, but we know that girls can wield emotional manipulation and social coercion with expert dexterity.”

          • We should probably table this issue for now and fight illiteracy first.

          • I read it now for the second time. Still where does “Emily admits up-front that women are every bit as manipulative and scheming as your average male date rapist,”

            There is

            1) No mention of “every bit as manipulative or scheming”, and

            2) No mention of “male date rapist.”

    • I don’t know enough about any of the commentators to say one way or the other, but I’ve met and dated many men with nasty, cruel personalities who were convinced that they were “nice guys.” They were arrogant, insensitive, and narcissistic, all the while bemoaning how it was only the “assholes,” not nice guys like them, who had success with women. They were so bitter and angry that they decided to be “no more Mr. Nice Guy,” even though they never really were nice at all. Many of them defined niceness with a really low bar, like “I’d never hit a woman, no matter how mad she made me.” Great. Thanks. I’ve learned to be very suspicious whenever anyone bemoans being “too nice.”

      Obviously there are truly nice men who know that they are nice. I’m just saying that self-reporting is very poor evidence. Like that movie line says, “Everyone thinks they have great taste and a sense of humor, but we can’t ALL have great taste and a sense of humor.”

      Bitterness, self-righteousness, and entitlement are pretty big turnoffs, and they may be what women are sensing. Seething, misogynistic “nice guys” raise a lot of red flags to any girl who’s paying attention.

    • I guess the question is what’s more important to you – getting laid or consent?

    • Oh, Colin, Colin, Colin, Colin.

      Well, your first problem is thinking that not having sex every night while in college is a punishment – not having sex is not punishment, it’s just a fact of life. Sometimes you get to have sex, sometimes you don’t. You don’t deserve to have sex every night while a dude in college – the default is not “I deserve to be pleasured,” and anything less than is a punishment.

      Also, “Okay, sure” might be about as green light as it gets for you, but there are plenty of men under 30 who have regular sex and elicit a response much more enthusiastic and positive. Just because you fail to do so, does not mean all men experience such failure.

      Perhaps the problem is that you don’t feel worthy of enthusiastic consent – it’s nobody else’s job to convince you otherwise, but yourself.

      • Problems with this comment:

        1. The presumption that celibacy is the default state of humanity. It’s not. Sex is. A human being denied an opportunity for sexual expression is a human being in chains.

        2. The presumption that a man is responsible for how women respond to him. Note that this is misogynistic in that it deprives women of agency and misandristic in that it attributes the failures of both men and women to negative traits and men. If women respond poorly to a man it is because the man are flawed, if men respond poorly to a woman it is because….the men are flawed. It’s hard to argue with something that nonsensical.

        The fact that we have constructed a society in which people are denied sexual contact is the root problem. The ridiculous behavior of both men and women is a combination of adaptive and acculturated attitudes to an unnatural and unhealthy sexual famine which is artificially imposed.

        Now, here’s the key point to understand: the sexual reserve of women is THE controlling factor in this situation. This is not an adaptive behavior. It is learned. Women have been taught to deny sexual contact to men. The anti-male influences on feminism have obscured attempts at exploring the extent to which women are complicit in the creation of dangerous and damaging sexual narratives, which is why you see so many women in these comments taking the position that women’s sexual behavior should not (CANNOT) be considered as a factor in producing the behaviors objected to in the article.

        It’s LUDICROUS. This is common sense. If someone is doing something you don’t like to achieve a specific result that you are capable of denying them, all you have to do is prevent them from achieving their goals to deter the behavior.

        We live in the real world. If you create barriers to sexual expression, people will find ways to get around those barriers. That is a fact that will never, never change. The question being asked is “How do we stop people from trying to surmount social barriers to their fulfillment in unethical ways?” The question that should be asked is “How do we remove social barriers to people’s fulfillment?”.

        Unfortunately, the latter question would require men AND women to examine and adjust their behavior, which is why women will not ask it and the narrow minded gender advocates who have hijacked feminism will decline to admit it as a concern.

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