—
Three decades after we ran the gauntlet of junior high together, my oldest friends are scattered across the globe, but we managed to arrange a rare reunion this summer, in which we regressed into adolescent camaraderie for ten days. When we’re not together in meatspace, we keep in touch using conversation-sorting app that lets us ramble on about numerous topics at once—conversations which we’ve been having for 30 years, on and off.
Once this last perspective was on the table, we realized that, as a group, we really didn’t know how to disentangle sex from intimacy.
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It’s a good system for us, because our interests overlap but don’t always match. So six out of eight friends might subscribe to the #sportsball thread, whereas the sports-indifferent two can dominate the #politics room, where another two or three might drop in now and then.
But there are a few threads to which we all subscribe. In one, called #manfeels, we seek out a vocabulary for our stunted emotions. In another, #liberal-confessional, we grapple with our shortcomings as supposedly progressive members of society. On both of these threads, the subject of women comes up a lot.
Instead of “women,” I should have said “partners,” or “objects of affection,” because one of my circle is gay. (That’s one liberal demerit to me, right there.) He’s married (it’s been legal in Canada for over 10 years, Yanks), and so am I and three other members of the gang. One friend is divorced; another never married, but has a child; and the last is perpetually single, though not by choice. So we bring about as wide a range of perspectives to the table as you’re going to get with any klatch of middle-aged cis white men.
When the #manfeels channel started up, one of the first issues raised involved middle-aged lust. I posted first, asking how everyone’s libidos were holding up as we all approached 40. Some friends reported a leveling off; others (including married men) said they were hornier than ever, a state that frequently clashed with their wives’ appetites. Friends who take heavy medication (antidepressants or antipsychotics) reported a flattening of sexual desire—but even they found themselves constantly yearning for more intimacy, even if it didn’t involve sex.
Once this last perspective was on the table, we realized that, as a group, we really didn’t know how to disentangle sex from intimacy. Nobody knew what it would look or feel like, to find a relationship that provides contact and closeness with no expectation of intercourse down the line. The only example we came up with was parenthood—mostly the early, tender years before they’re teenagers and want nothing to do with you—but that’s scant comfort to the bachelors among us.
One friend had recently been hired as an internet technician at a local college, and his daily exposure to women half his age had suddenly shot up by 1,000%.
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We’re not the first guys to discover this, nor is a group of eight a rigorous scientific sample. But it’s stuck in my mind lately, especially as I’ve been traveling. I’ve started to observe how other cultures cope differently with the male intimacy gap—from the “petit bises” or cheek kisses exchanged by male and female friends alike in France to the full body hugs on offer in some Mediterranean countries. Canadians sometimes hug, but it’s rare to see guy-friends embrace; usually a shoulder slap or a sideways half-hug is the closest we get.
Meanwhile, another challenge reared its head over on #liberal-confessional. One friend had recently been hired as an internet technician at a local college, and his daily exposure to women half his age had suddenly shot up by 1,000%. Was it acceptable, he wondered, to be a dirty old man in thought, if not in deed? Or would he have to arrange for chemical castration, just to keep himself feeling like a decent man?
Most of us confessed to feeling some degree of desire towards younger women, and though we blamed different causes, we applied similar remedies. Some blamed cultural ideologies that glorified and sexualized youth, while others blamed our simian hind-brains for having youthful sexual characteristics on the brain.
Personally, I think both nature and nurture are factors; and while I believe, as liberals, we’re obliged to call out bad cultural habits when we see them, I also suspect we’ll never completely shake off our creepy collective fixation on breasts, hips, and smooth, symmetrical faces. I’m a humanist, I know we can do better, but I allow for the fact that our inner cavemen will always be with us, and they need outlets. Suppressing them will only cause them to erupt in ways we can’t control.
We began to put our stunted emotional vocabularies to use in describing how much it meant for us all, to remain so close and so supportive after all these years.
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What outlets did my friends and I prefer? The most common answer was porn—a solution which carries its own degree of liberal guilt, but which seems less harmful overall than harassing co-eds in the workplace. A few guys found they could displace their inappropriate desires back onto their more age-appropriate spouses, though most of us were squirrelly about communicating this to our partners. And that carries a guilty burden, too, as if you’re cheating on your wife with your wife.
One friend claimed he could banish salacious thoughts through force of will alone: he looks (but doesn’t ogle), he acknowledges his lust, and then he lets it go. How zen. But even if we could all cultivate this freedom from attachment, it doesn’t address the basic concern: that as men, there’s something wrong with us for even looking in the first place.
I believe the #manfeels issue—lack of non-sexual intimacy—affects the #liberal-confessional issue. When men are raised to think of all intimacy as at least potentially sexual, and then starved of intimacy in general, we end up seeing sex everywhere, even when we know we’re not supposed to. Even a friendly smile from a teenage barista or a sympathetic hug from a younger co-worker get blown way out of proportion. Even if, intellectually, we know they aren’t actual come-ons, our emotional needs are stoked in ways we can’t immediately separate from sexual desire.
When we had our reunion this summer, we put most of this heady talk aside in favour of nostalgia and old private jokes. But every couple of nights, usually after a few beers, shit would get real between us. We began to put our stunted emotional vocabularies to use in describing how much it meant for us all, to remain so close and so supportive after all these years. We may have even shed a few tears. But there was no hugging, no clasping of hands, no contact. On the mornings after, I’d find finger-sized bruises on my upper arms, from hugging myself too tightly. They were my own “petit bises”; self-inflicted micro-aggression on the winding road to intimacy.
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Photo: Getty Images
And here I am as a 19 year old female dreaming of 40 year old men.
I don’t want to say much in the discussion here, because I’ve already had my chance. But there is one thing I want to state unequivocally as we go forward: My self-concept is shaped by everyone I meet and interact with – by the women in my life as much as by the male friends I talk about above – but ultimately I take full responsibility for my feelings, my ideas, my insecurities, and of course my actions. I do NOT approve of blaming women for what’s going on in my mind – especially some nebulous conspiracy of man-hating feminists.… Read more »
This thread develops in an interesting way…….
If you are a middle aged married man and you’re not having sex with your wife or not enough sex, would you not also have fantasies about all kinds of women, not just young women?
The question that everyone seems to avoid in discussions like this when everybody’s busy pointing fingers at men: If you are a middle-aged woman who are not having sex, what or who do you have fantasies about?
Hello FlyingKal… Believe it or not they also fantasize about sex too. A lot of older women, if not most, here in America are by and large ignored by older men. While their libido might not be as strong as before (many of these women are sexually repressed), they want to have sex. Many of them are healthier and more fit than their male cohorts. The sad truth is that we men tend to think of women as having shelf life. Once she is past a certain age, a lot of men think a woman becomes less sexual. It is… Read more »
Hi JJules,
Oh, I’m absolutely certain that “most” middle-aged women have fantasies about sex.
The question was more specifically what they fantasize about. What traits they are wishing for if they fantasize about a partner, etc.
Middle aged women fantasise about all sorts of things just like men; I’m sure it’s little different.
Rosy,
Thank you for your answer.
And yes, I agree with you. There are both variations and differences between the sexes.
The question was mostly aimed at the women who strongly defend the position that young women are much more (sexually) objectified than young men are. I was curious to know if that is all they see, or if it is just a part of the picture.
Young women are way more sexually objectified than young men. That is reflected everywhere in America. Perhaps it’s different where you live.
Erin
In my country it is against the law to have ads that is sexually discrimination.
Of course it still happens but it helps to make it illegal .
Don’t you in the U.S. have laws like that?
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A//forbrukerombudet.no/lov-og-rett/veiledninger-og-retningslinjer/veiledning-kjonnsdiskriminerende-reklame
Iben – I don’t know if America has such a law. Good for your country for having that. I do know that for young girls turning 12, that there is a marked drop in confidence. Boys experience this somewhat too but not nearly to the same degree girls are. When you hear about young boys getting blow jobs on the back of school buses but you know boys aren’t giving oral to girls like that, that shows the emerging narrative that sex and sexual power and sexual pleasure belong to males. I think a lot of that has to do… Read more »
“Young women are way more sexually objectified than young men. That is reflected everywhere in America. Perhaps it’s different where you live.”
I have not argued or questioned that point, I just think that the subject of “objectification” is a bit wider than that.
Hello Jules Indeed, women do fantasise about sex – of course we do! Sometimes due to the hormonal changes following menopause, an older woman’s libido may not be as strong as it used to be and this can be devastating for many women – especially those who had enjoyed their sexual relationship(s) before. However, many can work at this if they want to and I wonder if some women can’t be bothered. If masturbation had never been something that they actively engaged in, then there can be less incentive to try this later in life when libido is low. Interesting… Read more »
🙂
Jules,
“If you are a middle aged married man and you’re not having sex with your wife or not enough sex, would you not also have fantasies about all kinds of women, not just young women?”
Forgot to answer your question, sorry.
Married or not, I would answer “yes” to your question.
Scott, I deeply value your openness, commitment to understanding, and wanting to be a good man. • it’s better to be your kind of man, than her kind of man • your best allies in getting real are other men who want to get real • your sexuality is mostly innate • your desires and fantasies are beyond good and evil • if someone else doesn’t like who you are, do you deserve blame? • it’s an awful problem, that so many are starved for intimacy More on each: 1. “A man cannot be comfortable without his own approval” —… Read more »
Terrific comment Mark H…I love the advice you give.
You say,
“MOST MEN ARE INSTINCTIVELY ATTRACTED TO HIGHLY FERTILE WOMEN.”
Question,
Where is the evidence to support this Mark H? Seriously.
Maybe I am just different, but I am least attracted to young women. I am 55 by the way.
Jules, Attraction is complex, and works in different parts of our brain and levels of awareness. I don’t have evidence per se, and know only a little about the subject. However, mate selection is a subject of intensive study by researchers in a variety of disciplines, including psychology, anthropology, animal behavior, and evolutionary biology. In particular, anthropologists have studied mate selection across varied cultures, in an attempt to separate out social or cultural conventions. The consensus seems to be, that the physical traits men most often find attractive in women are strongly related to a woman’s likely fertility and capacity… Read more »
Jules – I find your response to Mark interesting. You and DJ are very supportive of Mark’s response. I consider most of Mark’s response very sex-negative because they reinforce exploiting women for his own desires and reinforcing male privilege and power over women. Yes, telling yourself your better with age an women are worse is completely about reinforcing male privilege and power. This is the disconnect I was talking about in how sex can not be positive when only one side sees it that way. When women tell men how they want to be treated or when men tell women… Read more »
Erin, I am really baffled as to why you see his post as sex negative.. I just don’t see your point here. ” Yes, telling yourself your better with age an women are worse is completely about reinforcing male privilege and power.” I have read his post several times. I cannot find where he suggests that men are better with age while women are worse. All I have said is that men prefer youth and beauty. I happen to think this is rather silly…but what am I to say. Men can sit around and want or desire young women all… Read more »
MarkH “Don’t play the victim or accept others claiming to be victimized by your nature.” “Is this terrible pain among men the responsibility of women?” Hmmmmmmm. This MarkH is a difficult question you ask. If I choose a man because I adore his character, admire his intelligence and like him enough to want to spend the rest of my life with him,I still will do him harm unless I also desire him sexually and turn myself on for him. I am certain or let’s say it is my hope that sexual attraction can develop and grow over time. The sad… Read more »
Iben, I appreciate your thoughtful comment, and relate to it in more than one way. When I have felt a powerful attraction or fallen deeply in love, it has always taken at least a few months, and sometimes a few years. One of my great passions was for a woman about whom I long thought that I really liked her, but wasn’t attracted in “that way” — but over time, with much caring and intimacy, I came to see her in such a different light. You wrote that you “dare not ask any good man to give the time needed… Read more »
MarkH I am sure you are aware of the risk you take by getting married befor she has developed sexual feelings, sexual desire for you. If we heard the truth about other people’s marriages then I am sure we would be surprised. And your variety of marriage may not be unusual . What is unusual that she is so honest about her feelings. Some friends of mine decided to get married in their student years after they both had been dumped by their partner and had their heart broken. They were not in love . They have a good marriage… Read more »
Iben, I appreciate your kind message. My beloved is unusual, in her degree of self-awareness, and willingness to open to me what is on her mind and in her heart. She and I both, are taking a big risk. Still, who doesn’t, when starting a family life together? Even with couples who seem to have all the right ingredients for an enduring union, disappointment, heartache and divorce often happen. However things will go in the future, it is my decision not to regret. I am walking this road with my eyes open. Whatever comes, sweet and bitter, it is the… Read more »
Is it her youth and beauty that you are obsessed? If she is old enough to be your daughter and has a child, then she must be sexually active? If that is the case and she is not sexually active with you, does this not trouble you? Or are both of celibate? I am just trying to understand how a man can opt for this sort of arrangement while maintaining his dignity. Whether her attraction and /or love for you grows over time, the fact remains that you at the moment is a second class citizen to some other man/men… Read more »
MarkH
“She and I both, are taking a big risk”
If you both live in the U.S. then I guess you are the one that take the greatest risk,economically?
Maybe I ask too personal questions MarkH,but I wonder if you plan to marry this “early ” because you have found your future bride to be in another country ?
Iben, I when I think of “risk” in relationship, I think of heart and soul, not economics.
We are indeed forming an international family … but this doesn’t really determine our timing. In a very-long-distance relationship, it is very easy to “drag one’s feet” (take things very slowly) — I think even more than when a couple lives nearby one another.
The urgency of our decision is based on the well-being of the small child, who needs and hungers for fatherly love. We agreed that we must make a serious commitment to a life together, or go our separate ways.
MarkH.. “This hits directly home for me, as I am in the process of building a family life with a woman who (a) is young enough to be my daughter, and (b) doesn’t love me “that way.” We’ve never been so much as undressed together. I don’t know whether we will ever have a sexual relationship, but we love each other and are preparing for marriage.” As I read this, I just could not believe it. How do have have a relationship with a woman who has zero desire for you? Is it really a relationship? Is she celibate? Or… Read more »
The conversation that we should be having here, Mark, rather then contently having to defend men against wild accusation, assumption, and disdain. Outstanding, lucid, authentic, to the crux of the issue, of many issues, the most glaring being men raised without fathers and male role models and not only having no sense of themselves, but left open to such negative opinions and accusations, subject to critique and direction based on assumption of “the other”. it is the very reason that we see so many men either in a state of self loathing, or totally lost in so far as who… Read more »
Mark – You are completely incorrect about when women reach peek fertility. Women reach peek fertility between the ages of 23 to 31. Fertility rates are always different for every woman (and man). All it takes is some internet research and these facts are very easy to find. Teenage females are actually not at their peak fertility. So it really makes no sense for men to lust after teenagers more so then they would women over 35 if all this was simply about fertility. The lusting of teenagers is heavily dominated by media and especially things like pornography. But the… Read more »
Erin
Danish research show women are the most fertile at the age 30-35 .http://www.aftenposten.no/verden/Eldre-kvinner-er-like-fruktbare-som-yngre-113898b.html
Erin
Here is more from the Danish research. Here written in Danish. I guess nobody will read it but the link is here if you want to use Google translate.
Women age 35-40 are nearly as fertile
as women 20-25.
.http://nordjyske.dk/nyheder/unge-og-lidt-aeldre-kvinder-er-naesten-lige-frugtbare/fe35c1d3-fcf0-4a3d-a58c-40d7c3bb5c0e/112/1513
That’s amazing Iben!
Iben, I’ve been busy and didn’t get a a chance to comment on this. Thanks for sharing this information. Very helpful! That backs up the information I gave about research discovering that women’s eggs, no matter at 25 or at 40 both have the same amount of genetic mutations which hover around 25, but how men’s sperm breaks down over time because it’s always replicating.
Erin, I don’t understand your point,
“I think the rest of your post is equally harmful to men and their own personal growth because it plays right into a very male-dominant/male-superior normative dialogue.”
Can you explain what you mean?
As regards female fertility, it varies across the world and is influenced by factors such as diet, poverty, longevity etc.
Rosy – Thank you for pointing out that fertility is varied across the world and influenced by diet. Yes, I was simply citing the fertility of American women. I appreciate you giving me the boarder view. I will do my best to explain that point. But if my latest response to Mark goes through, it might help to explain more in-depth. Mark spends a lot of time hyper-focusing on women’s fertility and hardly ever mentions his own. He lightly touches on male fertility but it’s not his main focus. I find that in a lot of these conversations, this is… Read more »
Erin, thank you for your reply however I’m still a little lost in your argument. I think it may be the linking of your ideas together that I find hard to follow. For instance, I’m not sure why MarkH needed to think about his own fertility when he was giving an argument that the drive in men to seek younger partners is based on biology and evolution. I thought he was quite clear about the moral imperatives being something separate. I didn’t think he was discussing his own position either but rather, talking in generalities. So I struggle to see… Read more »
Rosy, I deeply appreciate your compassionate understanding.
Erin and Iben, Thanks for the information posted about women’s fertility as it relates to age. Without getting too much lost in the specifics (which I think are not simple) … whether women’s peak fertility is at age 19 or 33, for men in their fifties (like me) the women with the greatest reproductive potential are a lot younger. Whatever else we may think or feel about such sexual desires, they are consistent with the logic of evolutionary biology. Males and females of ALL vertebrate species are programmed by genes to prefer categories of mates, which increase the likelihood of… Read more »
MarkH Some ( or many many ) women have an instinctive sexual attraction to dangerous men. The evolutionary psychologist explanation is that a long time ago,when women lived on more dangerous environments than we do today then these men gave the most security and protection for her and her children. Still today few women start a family with dangerous men, for obvious reasons even if many feel this instinctual sexual attraction. Some chose men like that when they live dangerous areas and have a high feeling of insecurity. But I think most of us are not slaves of our instincts… Read more »
Iben, Thanks for your characteristically thoughtful comment. You draw the vital distinction as between “instinctual sexual attraction” versus “love and choice of partners.” Because of our human capacities, these can be quite different — and this divergence brings us both blessings, and internal conflicts. When Scott writes about middle-age lust, I interpret that as drives, feelings and thoughts, which are probably instinctual at least in part. I didn’t see in Scott’s article that he or any of his circle of men are in love with, or even “hooking up” with, people who are much younger (or in other ways problematic).… Read more »
Mark – The way you talk about women’s youth (while ignoring your own age), comes off like something you feel you are owed or get to own. This has nothing to do with biology but systematic messages in our culture that try to disempower women because some men feel entitled over women and want to feel powerful over women too. When you try to claim that women reach *peak* fertility specifically at age 20, which was wrong, and use that to justify why a 50+ year old man is entitled to women who are 30 years his junior, that’s not… Read more »
Erin, It somehow seems important to me to respond to what you have written, and it’s a special challenge for me. I’ve spent hours thinking about it. Your comment above contains many statements which I am confident are true; several which are debatable and could be explored in light of evidence; and many statements which I am confident are false. If you are open in your mind and heart to deeper understanding, I hope that the thoughts written below may be useful; if your intentions are otherwise, then perhaps it will be of no value to read further. 1. The… Read more »
This is such an honest piece – thank you. I’m glad that you and your friends have found a way of sharing together in such a way, it’s very beautiful to read of men gathering together and practising sharing so vulnerably. But I’m sad too. I agree with you that the lack of non-sexual intimacy must feed lust. Interesting that you highlight parenting providing opportunity for touch. I think men might be raised to think intimacy comes through sex because boys are raised being touched less after they are toddlers. This is why I think girls get the refrain, “If… Read more »
Scott This article just made me confused. I do not understand what you try to tell us here. And let me just comment on what you say about middle age men lusting after younger women, and that feel guilty for the increased sexual feelings they have in certain environment and therefor therefor they go home and use porn as an outlet…….. How stupid is that? Maybe I misunderstand . Maybe you tell the story about the man that is turned on by his coworker and see it is more ethical to go home and masturbate to porn,than to tell his… Read more »
Well said Iben.
Maybe his schedule does not match that of his wife so they can have time alone?
Maybe his wife for whatever reason does no longer want to have sex with him, leading to a pent-up desire where the daily (over-)exposure to younger women merely tips the scale to occasional masturbation?
Maybe he doesn’t have a wife?
“Most of us confessed to feeling some degree of desire towards younger women, and though we blamed different causes, we applied similar remedies. ” Boy, the radicals and man haters have sure fucked you guys up. Now being attracted to women is a crime? Let me explain something. I love women, I love breasts, I love a nice pair of legs. If I see an especially attractive woman, I will look. Know why? I’m a normal, healthy male that has a natural attraction to women. Your sex drive is normal and natural. It is programed in. It is how the… Read more »
“Normalized” objectification of women is not the same thing as “normal” attraction. Even in you comments here you use very objectifying language of women on purpose, purposely making sure how much you love women’s body parts, not women as entire people. This is the language that is so common in our culture that contributes to sex-negativity. Attraction is great. Dissecting, pulling apart body parts and not seeing an entire person isn’t. Also, if you are unable to not objectify every attractive person you come across, that doesn’t seem sex positive either. Sex positivity should make both people feel good, happy,… Read more »
Awful lot of assumption and hyperbole, and word twisting. All bullshit, but a fine job of formatting and re-writing the conversation, while leveling accusation at me personally and ignoring what I said.
It was not my intention to make you feel attacked. I was doing the best I could to express my own thoughts in response to yours. As a woman, I am tired of men always focusing on our body parts and basically flipping us off and telling us “too bad” men like women’s bodies, deal with it. I feel like men don’t want women to have any say in how men relate to us sexually or how that makes us feel. Sex-positivity is about making all people feel good and happy in exchanges of sex. How do we do that?… Read more »
Erin
” Sex positivity should make both people feel good, happy, free and respected. It shouldn’t just be about what makes you feel best”
YES!
I agree with the overall premise of your comments here regarding what healthy sexual attraction should look like. Yes, it should be positive as oppose to negative. But, don’t you agree that many women today have taken on this sex negative view as well? i seems to me, at least that many younger women in particular, also engage in a lot of sexual objectification too. How do we separate today’s very casual and permissive sexual environment from sexual objectification? When a woman agrees to a casual one time encounter off of Tinder, is it not all about the man’s body… Read more »
Yes Jules, I think that young women can have many sex negative views themselves. I also agree that women can and do objectify men too. I just don’t believe male objectification is nearly as pervasive or as intense as what is done to women. And I will only use this one example because there is an extensive body of research if you are willing to do the reading. Sociologists at the University of Buffalo reviewed more than 1,000 Rolling Stones cover and images published over four decades. They discovered that while sexualized images of both men an women have become… Read more »
Maybe because the main form of male objectification is not sexual? Yet is perceived by us as just as damaging to men as sexual objectification of women is to you? That once again even the concept of men being hurt and damaged to a similar degree do to it is mocked. Just accept that men are just as damaged by the constraints and expectations of society as women are and that women are equally culpable for all of it.
Trey, I never said men were not damaged by constraints and expectations of society. I totally agree they are. I would certainly like to do a better job of helping men in that regard and not holding them to shallow expectations. I have dated men of all different heights and economic status. I learned early on that money doesn’t equal love. I don’t like entertainment like 50 Shades of Grey that portrays men as abusive, selfish people. I don’t like comedies that make men appear dumb. I like when men are portrayed in positive ways in the media! I support… Read more »
Startling!
Youth and physical beauty are linked!
Age and wisdom
Water and wet
spaghetti and carbonara
What do middle-aged people who don’t fall into the self-flagellating “white cis-gendered male” cathegory depicted here, fantasize about?
Anyone?
This is such an honest piece – thank you. I’m glad that you and your friends have found a way of sharing together in such a way, it’s very beautiful to read of men gathering together and practising sharing so vulnerably. But I’m sad too. I agree with you that the lack of non-sexual intimacy must feed lust. Interesting that you highlight parenting providing opportunity for touch. I think men might be raised to think intimacy comes through sex because boys are raised being touched less after they are toddlers. This is why I think girls get the refrain, “If… Read more »
Get a dog, a moto-cycle and a full personal library – Hazza, you just might find that there is no need nor want for women in your life: for intimacy or otherwise. Plus a good dose of travel helps.
Uggg. Honestly, this is depressing to hear. Basically this piece reinforces a fear a lot of women carry in men seeing women as being worthwhile of love and sex so long as we remain young and flawless. Maybe the answer is for women to objectify teen boys as much as adult men are doing to teen girls? I also fail to see how porn is a good solution to the hyper focus on youth confounded with sex. Considering the fact that porn exploits youth and the most shallow things about women and stereotypes us. Meanwhile, in porn men can be… Read more »
Ever hear of the cougar? Ever look into the prostitution rings on some of the Islands, where women go on vacation to have sex with young men and boys? Missed that did ya? Never heard of the “objectifying” of men as success objects, wallet rather then humans? never sat though a few weeks of divorce cases? Did you see, a few years ago when Florida came clean and a laundry list of female rapist was published, some of the victims pre-pubescent, a few handicapped? Remember the smith case, where she seduced young boys and convinced them to kill her husband?… Read more »
Anything to minimizes women. Meanwhile you use your battle cry to talk about how marginalized men are.
Women do not objectify men for their ages to nearly the same capacity men do to women. Good try though at trying to ignore and brush of men’s responsibility.
Total refusal to try to accept how men feel, instead the usual men are this and that. All that anger and hate will damage you more than those you despise.
I am not angry and I don’t hate anyone Trey. Please don’t feel justified in telling me who I am just because you dislike me. And just take a minute to think how you would feel if I told you, you had hate and anger. Honestly, I think ALL of us…you and me and everyone else here could ALL do a better job of understanding how the others feel. No one wants to care about anyone else here. No one seems interested in being better but simply wishing to paint themselves as the only ones entitled to pain and heartbreak.… Read more »
Didn’t say I dislike you….. In reality I pity you.
As I personally see it…… just my view. I wish you a fulfilling life with a partner (if that’s your wish) and for you to feel safe and content…….Something I wish for every member of our human tribe.
I disagree with you that men (in general) are responsible for the world’s ills and that Women are powerless. Society is a shared social construct…. We all are responsible.
Trey – Let me ask you something, do you think when someone tells you they ‘pity’ you, that they are being sincere? Do you enjoy it when people tell you, that they ‘pity’ you? Do you believe they say that to you because they are just trying to be honest? And if they told you they ‘pity’, would you nodd in agreement with their evaluation of you? I think when people tell you they ‘pity’ you, they do so to feel superior over you. By telling me you ‘pity’ me, you’ve effectively tried to created a dynamic where you are… Read more »
Thank you yet again for informing me of what in your opinion are my true feelings. I suppose I am now properly chastised?
Trey, Tell me which statement you would react better to if someone was saying this to you: 1. “I pity you.” 2. “I empathize with you.” Which statement is conducive to mutual respect? Were you not trying to chastise me by telling me you pity me? Where you not trying to paint me as some pitiful person who you feel bad for because of stereotypes you hypothesized about me in your own mind? Why is it okay for you to tell me you pity me but it’s not okay for me to teach you the difference between “pity” and “empathy”?… Read more »
I suppose I was not chastised enough…..
I wish you no ill will, just enlightenment, The ability to see beyond the narrow confines and darkness that have ensnared your vision.
Trey, at some point you have to ask yourself why you are more interested in making “me” the topic of this conversation, rather than addressing the actual topic. You’re thinly guised personal attacks are not subtle. It’s funny that you keep using the word “chastise” and are very sensitive to it. Are you not chastising me? I simply want you to take accountability for your words. Everything you’ve said to me thus far has been about personally attacking me and undermining me. It is effectively known as gas-lighting. At some point, you switched from the topic and decided you needed… Read more »
“I disagree with you that men (in general) are responsible for the world’s ills and that Women are powerless. Society is a shared social construct…. We all are responsible. Isn’t that very simple? I keep saying that yourself and women in general ( in the western-style democracies ) Are fully equal in agency with men IN GENERAL in those same societies. That does not mean that various gender roles do not each have their own pluses and minuses…….But that one has a choice as to how we navigate the boundaries and intersections of those roles, Or to throw them off… Read more »
But women aren’t fully equal in society yet. LIke I illustrated with the CNBC financial shows I watch. The women must be beautiful, younger and smart. The men simply must be smart. That is not equality. That is not something women can control. And that is simply one example in a long line. Such as the fact that in school, we largely only hear about men in history because women and their contributions where written out of it. Or that the majority of books and film and stories are led by male leads. Or the fact that girls will infact… Read more »
By the way Trey, above you told me I have hate and anger. You felt it was totally okay to tell me how I feel. Why are the rules different for you?
Have you not expressed anger at men in response to this throughout these posts? Did I misinterpret it?
“Women do not objectify men for their ages to nearly the same capacity men do to women.”
I think all evidence would tend to support your assertion. Men tend to value youth and beauty in women. Women tend to value a man’s status more than his age or looks.
There are a subset of women who do like young men (i.e., cougars). But, they are a small minority.
Yes, I agree that there is a small subset of women you like younger guys. But it is not a small subset of men who treat female youth as if it’s the thing that matters most. Our society fetishesizes women’s youth and over sexualizes young girls in ways that aren’t done to boys and men. I think if young boys and teen boys were hyper-sexualizes like girls, I truly believe a lot of men would find that upsetting. This does infact allow men some amount of social power over women and girls when it comes to beliefs about how men… Read more »
Erin “I think if young boys and teen boys were hyper-sexualizes like girls, I truly believe a lot of men would find that upsetting. ” I agree. Last night I watched a documentary from BBC Channel 4 , called ” obsessed with my body”. And I felt sorry for the British boys,if this is the new trend . This documentary tells us that British boys use nearly as much beauty products as girls . And they spend 30 percent more time in the bathroom and take twice as many selfies,as girls. But I would not can be described them being… Read more »
Hello Iben – I’ve not seen this documentary (and will look it up) but I think one worry is about how young boys are becoming increasingly more preoccupied by how they look. Eating disorders are on the rise amongst boys in the UK. I can only imagine that this is a phenomena observable elsewhere in the western world. Are boys being exploited by porn as much as girls? I believe so.
Rosy
Unfortunately the documentary focus too much on body building . That is not a new phenomena.
I find it more interesting to hear more about why men use makeup and now use lots of time and money on grooming.
The documentary does not give a good analysis why young British boys and men build up what they see as good looks, to give good self esteem,respect and maybe even a feeling of masculinity.
Women have done so for centuries and know it is trap.
Hello Iben, I’ve been thinking about your comment about adolescent boys and why they might be so preoccupied by grooming etc. Although I’ve not seen the BBC4 programme you mentioned, I think recent neuroscientific research may provide us with an answer. The brain has a growth spurt during adolescence and particularly in the higher brain, the prefrontal cortex, where there is some reorganisation including ‘pruning’ of synapses and myelination to increase the speed of brain signals. There is one area of the cortex called the medial prefrontal cortex which is responsible for mentalisation, self-reflection and awareness, which starts to grow… Read more »
There is a willful blindness to what lengths boys and young men do to fit be seen as attractive to their female peers. I’d say at most of the so-called “bad boys” became such to increase their dating odds…
Heck I did 40 years ago in HS tried being “nice” in college for a semester….went back to reforming bad boy….that really was to ticket.
But boys and young men work at it just as hard as the young women do…just in different ways to get traction with their respective audiences.
Trey1963 “There is a willful blindness to what lengths boys and young men do to fit be seen as attractive to their female peers. I’d say at most of the so-called “bad boys” became such to increase their dating odds…” I will look at the documentary one more time. My first impression was that all this grooming and focus on their own looks had more to do with their idea of being a man,be respected as a man , have power as one of them said. Of course they also wanted to be attractive to girls (and boys) but to… Read more »
“My first impression was that all this grooming and focus on their own looks had more to do with their idea of being a man,be respected as a man , have power as one of them said.” Because that will get them status…..and for Young men status tends to be aligned with dating success….. Also the display of disposable income points to the ability to provision….also correlated with mating success I played the bad boy roll……even if inside I was the shy sensitive introvert nerd…..elite school and all. Was never tall,rich or pretty….So smart/tuff/loyal/stoic/bad boy was the effective pattern…… I… Read more »
“(And what on earth are they doing ?
Never in my entire life have I used that much time.”
LOL…Yes, I really wonder. If they are putting in this much time, then I am sure there must be an objective. Usually, men don’t do this sort of thing unless at the end of the day (or night) there is either going to be sex or money….I just wonder what is the end game?
Strange to say the least.
Jules
“Usually, men don’t do this sort of thing unless at the end of the day (or night) there is either going to be sex or money….I just wonder what is the end game?”
Sex and money.
Sex with women or men plus a hope of becoming the next internationally famous male model….or simply thousands of likes on websites like Instagram.
Some even hope to make a living as bloggers just like women with their bloggs about makeup etc?
I am sure many men earn good money this way already. Like my favourite make up artist on YouTube W.Goss.
Here is Wayne Goss
https://youtu.be/YMN0PS2p6ZE
And I really like and respect this guy.
Interesting….Well he is talented..
Maybe I should try it:)
Thanks for sharing this Iben.
Jules I like him because he has experimented and found out how to apply makeup that look as if the person don’t have any makeup at all. Or just a little. So a self thought boy ,the son of single mother goes on YouTube and is a great success. Of course it is mainly for women ,but the reason why he started to experiment with makeup was he was bothered by acne in his youth. He is actually a sympatic,sweet guy,and now earn a lot is money ,with his own television show. But don’t think many men in my part… Read more »
Trey, being ‘nice’ was never enough to attract either gender. Women somehow are upheld to a standard about how we should be grateful when men are ‘nice’ to us. Go read ByeFilipe on Instagram. But I am confused about calling yourself a bad boy. Are you saying you treat women poorly in relationships? I find it hard to believe you treat women poorly in relationships and then would come here to say as much. How exactly are you defining ‘bad boy’? We all have seen the conversations where men say women like men who treat them poorly and go for… Read more »
Jules
Thank you Jules for this comment .
A warm hug!
”
“Women do not objectify men for their ages to nearly the same capacity men do to women.”
I think all evidence would tend to support your assertion. Men tend to value youth and beauty in women. Women tend to value a man’s status more than his age or looks.
There are a subset of women who do like young men (i.e., cougars). But, they are a small minority.”
Interesting how you ignored the entirety of the contention except to pull the one nugget of truth that would support your ongoing tirade against men. According to the data available, men do seek out younger women more than the opposite, but we are also in flux. More important to envision is that is how the gender based feminist mind works: women act this way less (allegedly, and in one small aspect of the issues), so we ignore that and blame men absolutely while holding women as victims…and when we do find contradictory evidence, as we now have with DV, seek… Read more »
Oi vei!
Seriously Erin, you are a master of irrelevant comparisons.
“Women do not objectify men’s vaginas nearly to the same capacity as men do” Is this your point?
The issue is sexual attraction and each sex “objectifies” (I despise this term) – they simply objectify different things.
“How would guys feel if their wives and gfs where lusting at teen guys all the tim?”
Odd comment…….Because I’ve known lots of 30+ women who openly admit lusting over guys in the 17-28 age range…..So? Women also are visually lustful creatures…..It’s part of the human condition. Are you saying that a hot surfer boy 18 yr old does nothing for your libido? We know women lust after hot guys as much as men lust after hot gals. That holier than thou shuff gets really old….. especially when we know it pure BS
Ignoring the huge amount of social constructs that infact do disproportionately objectify women and specifically objectify young women gets really old too Trey. Always dismissing the things women face and struggle with in a world that is ten times more critical of our ages than men’s, and then saying it’s totally okay for men to lust after teen girls instead of seeing the as young women who could use sound older male mentors, is a real shame. Women are not lusting after teenagers like men are. Women do not look at porn of school boys, male babysitters and all of… Read more »
You don’t represent all women….many do lust after younger men….that you claim not to changes that not one iota.
nope. I certainly don’t represent all women. But I do represent more women then I think you’d like to admit to. Neither do you repersent all men.
Erin,
On the subject at hand, I think you are mostly right. In my opinion, there’s really not much debate whether men in quantity lust after (and objectify) young women more than the reverse.
However, instead of bogging down in the yes/no “debate” every time this is brought up, I think it would be interesting for once to have a debate about other traits or characteristics that women do objectify in men, what these traits are, and the impact they have on the behavior of men, both at smaller and larger scale.
This article was about middle aged men lusting after younger women. This was the discussion the author opened up. Now you don’t want to talk about that? Does that make sense to you? You came into this article to talk about another topic entirely? The reality is that it is these beliefs that men hold about women that make women feel completely alienated from men. How are we to trust and feel close to men while men basically are telling us these kind of things? I’ve asked this question multiple times and have yet to see any man tackle it.… Read more »
You know Erin, I do greatly empathize with how you and other women feel. I really do. I can share in feeling this way because I have come to a similar conclusion about how many women perceive men…We are just useful tools. Ultimately we are disposable. So, for me it is the same issue as you state: “The reality is that it is these beliefs that men hold about women that make women feel completely alienated from men. How are we to trust and feel close to men while men basically are telling us these kind of things?” Look how… Read more »
As much as we see complaints about how society’s roles damage women along with the expectation of comfort and empathy, why is it so hard to get any understanding that men are just as damaged by the even narrower roles we are forced into. Along with that we all carry a shared culpability for damage done to others Not just men to women.
Hi Erin,
There’s a lot to be said about mutual trust and closeness, and as you say, understanding must come first.
I appreciate you taking the time to write an answer, but I think you misinterpreted the intention or motives behind my question.
FlyingKal,what is your intention and motive behind your questions?
Hi again, Erin. To elaborate just a little bit on my previous post (that will now end up below this one). “ You came into this article to talk about another topic entirely? ” Well, I posed the question because I would have liked a discussion about lust and/or objectification in a somewhat larger picture. If you think that’s an entirely different topic, well… I guess that is up to you. What’s been done here so far in almost 100 posts are some people pointing fingers at men at large for lusting after young women, and some others claiming that… Read more »
I just feel that so many of these conversations are over before they even begin, whenever one said says, “They do it too!” or “what about me?” We all want to be understood but what’s the right balance here? I feel like we always end up talking about the same things. I think I’ve done a bit more then just point fingers so I admit I find it disappointing that you appear to believe that’s what I’ve done here to some degree. I am not discussing these issues because I simply want to paint men as being ‘bad’. I talk… Read more »
Don’t waste your time, Trey. They see only what they want to see. Amazing how they do it.
By “they”, you obviously mean, me. You know what DJ, I bet if we ever met face to face, we would have a very different conversation. I bet you would see me differently and I bet I would see you differently. We might even be able to actually treat each other better and show each other some more grace.