Did Jason Collins use his former fiancee, Carolyn Moos?
Howard Kurtz and The Daily Beast “parted ways” on Thursday after Kurtz’s blog post on newly openly gay NBA player Jason Collins caused an internet uproar. Kurtz, a high-profile journalist, asserted that Collins was not completely honest about his relationship with women—that Collins “left out one little part”, Kurtz wrote—in the coming-out column he wrote for Sports Illustrated. Kurtz said that Collins failed to mention that “he was engaged. To be married. To a woman.”
This was an incorrect statement. Collins did mention in the column that he’d been engaged and had dated women in an attempt to fake it and make it. Collins and his ex-fiancée Carolyn Moos ended their engagement in 2009 after eight years together, and only within the last couple of weeks he told her the reasons for their breakup. The internet jumped on Kurtz, and The Daily Beast retracted his post before letting him go, though both sides are saying that the parting had been in the works for a while.
Jason Linkins at The Huffington Post channeled general opinion on Kurtz:
Now, Kurtz. He has heard it. From Twitter. And so he has altered his story a teensy-weensy bit. Now it reads that Collins “downplayed” the detail, instead of leaving it out. But again, as the Eat The Press telestrator shows, Collins didn’t downplay the detail. The societal expectations Collins was attempting to conform to posed a struggle. As he says, he felt that he “needed to marry a woman and raise kids with her.” He goes on to note that this put him in a constant state of self-denial.
Kurtz did miss an important detail from a journalistic standpoint. He didn’t carefully read what Collins wrote in his article, and jumped the gun in giving his take. To journalists, mostly, this was a great ethical failure on Kurtz’s part. But what about Collins’ failure?
As Collins admitted, he took Carolyn Moos for a ride on the Self Denial Express for eight years. Moos said upon finding out about Collins:
“It’s very emotional for me as a woman to have invested 8 years in my dream to have a husband, soul mate, and best friend in him,” Moos, a six-foot-six former WNBA player, tells TMZ. “So this is all hard to understand.”
CNN talk-show host Piers Morgan asked Moos whether or not Collins apologized to her when he came out to her. The 34 year-old former WNBA star indicated that Collins had not, telling Morgan, “I think he’s in the process of taking ownership of the here and now which is actually coming out.” Moos also told TMZ that she is taking steps to freeze her eggs.
In our haste to celebrate Collins’ decision we seem to be overlooking how Moos was wronged. This exposes a moral quandary for how we should discuss people who feel boxed into a certain social role who end up harming others in the process. Both Collins and Moos had grievances of vastly different natures.
Author and former Forbes columnist Kiri Blakeley went through a similar experience. She recounted in her book Can’t Think Straight: A Memoir of Mixed-Up Love her experience dating a man for ten years before he finally admitted to her that he was sexually attracted to men. Blakeley said of her mindset after the breakup in an interview with Forbes:
It will affect my relationships for the rest of my life. I know now that you cannot ever truly know anyone. If you do, you got lucky. Most of us don’t live with extended family, so we have this one person that we wrap our lives around. That makes that one person indispensable, which is very scary because people are flawed and people do lie.
Ten years taken from Blakely and eight years from Moos.
Bonnie Kaye is a therapist who works with gay husband / straight wife couples. She says that these sorts of relationships are very common in the United States. “It is estimated that approximately 4 million gay men are or have been married.” Kaye calls them “Limbo Men.” “They were hoping that love would cure those nagging urges that wouldn’t go away. They are hoping their emotional love for a woman will spill over into that sexual desire for her–but it rarely does, or if it does, it’s not for very long.”
Kaye says she advises her clients that they have no choice in being gay—“only in being honest.”
To be sure, it is not just gay men who string straight women along. Most people have been on one end of a relationship with asymmetric information, and their sexuality has nothing to do with it. But Collins did tell George Stephanopoulos that he knew at an early age that he wasn’t attracted to women. There seems room to be critical of Collins not for being gay or for the celebration at his announcement, but for not living up to the standards of decency people of all classes, races, and sexual orientations should be held.
Ideally, it wouldn’t matter what sort of personal crises a person is facing. There would never be a good enough excuse to waste a person’s prime years—especially, let’s admit it, a woman’s—while trying to search for identity or in order to maintain a facade to family, friends, and society. That’s a moral failure brought on, admittedly, by a dilemma that’s nothing short of a full-court press.
We can be happy that Collins came out of the closet and also understand that if men have to wait until they’re adults to feel comfortable in their sexuality then more women will be hurt, but we can also criticize him for hiding in a closet that is actually a person.
Read more on Ethics & Values.
How is it diff from a heterogeneous cheater . No one says ” how brave that he has the gut to lie and deceit” they don’t get praises for being a jersey or excuse for bad morals A gay man is brave and ppl sympathize and empathize. …get praises and excuse for being dishonest. .its like it’s ok he lied and use her because he a closet gay. ..F that he is still a coward jerk…accountability for our action and choices regardless of reasons^fear…I understand it hard but many chooses to not deceit people when they in doubt. A good… Read more »
My now ex b/f of over 8 yrs said he gay/bi. I see a lot of people not having compassion for the straight partner. My brother is gay and he came out and dealt with it. Being gay not a choice but being a dishonest and deceitful is. I also felt like we will be marry and have kids. We discuss and talk about growing old together. He fought hard to stay and maintain the relationships. Over 8 year’s of my life. I felt cheated. Emotional abuse. I understand it’s hard and confusing for gays. I’m an honest person and… Read more »
Mr. Ross,
Thank you for writing and publishing this article, it was a courageous thing to do. The Good Men Project seems to me to be the perfect forum for the questions raised here. I believe that people make the best choices they can given the prevailing pressures and perceived consequences. No person is perfect. No choice is without consequence. Sometimes we have to choose from amongst several abhorrent choices. Even then, the choices we make are our own.
One larger lesson here is to remember that ANYONE you assume is heterosexual could actually be in the closet.
Therefore, do not assume that Moos is not in the closet. It’s possible they were covering for each other. It’s possible they were both hiding their Stranger things have happened. The fact that she consented to be engaged to a man, and the fact that she wants to have children, is no conclusive proof that she’s not gay herself.
Does your recommended skepticism about a person’s presumptive orientation only apply to people who are presumptively heterosexual? Or does it apply to any person of any stated sexual orientation?
Fair point. I guess if I were to be consistent, I’d have to have the same skepticism about anyone who identifies as gay. We should not assume that Collins is actually gay just because he says he is. There appears to be much less incentive to cover up one’s heterosexuality than cover up one’s homosexuality, so in that sense the two are not quite symmetrical. (As Sean Connery’s character says in _The Untouchables_, “who would claim to be that who wasn’t?”) In an ideal world of equality, there would be just the same chance of anyone lying about any aspect… Read more »
I guess if I were to be consistent, I’d have to have the same skepticism about anyone who identifies as gay. Indeed. So does this principle of sexual orientation skepticism permit people to say, “Maybe he’s not actually gay. Maybe he’s going through a phase, or he’s afraid of women, or he’s just a malcontent who wants to undermine heteronormativity” or whatever other rationalizations people came up with. There appears to be much less incentive to cover up one’s heterosexuality than cover up one’s homosexuality, so in that sense the two are not quite symmetrical. True, but just because admitting… Read more »
I was just thinking that there’s an argument floating around out there that says that gays and lesbians today have a lot of “special rights.” (I’m not saying you’re saying this, I’m just reminded of the argument here.) There’s one way to test this assertion. Not a perfect test, but quite illustrative: If there were lots of special privileges to being openly gay, then one would expect a fair number of people to lie about being gay. There are always some people who will lie about themselves to get more benefits, so one would expect there to be a lot… Read more »
One would expect to see lots of people being exposed for pretending to be gay but who weren’t gay. Is there actually a definitive way to prove that somebody is not gay? Lots of people identified as gay engaged in heterosexual activity, yet that does not seem to undermine their gay identity. In fact, some gay people, like Stephen Daldry, remain in an active heterosexual union but still identify as just gay. When people like Ted Haggard or Larry Craig were caught engaging in homosexual interactions, they both denied that they were gay. Well, Larry Craig denied that he tried… Read more »
“Is there actually a definitive way to prove that somebody is not gay?”
Sure. You can check their name against the master list currently in the hands of the Central Soviet of the Gay Agenda. They also have the phone tree for all the Jewish people who worked in the World Trade Center who got that special call on September 10th.
Okay, but I don’t think the Central Soviet is receptive to Freedom of Information requests.
Gimme a break.
This is just a bunch of myths created by the Federal Reserve. If you really want to know if someone is gay, just read the tiny microchip inserted when the person got vaccinated. Go to your local Federal Building in any major city and make the person walk through the “metal detector.” Then ask the security guard for the results of the chip scan. Give the code word “Trilateral.” That should get the desired result.
Heather, I’m starting a new thread to continue our discussion. You mentioned ‘lavender marriages’ quite often up the thread. Quite a few of those – many of them – were *open* lavender marriages. A lavender marriage in which the gay member is open and honest with the straight member is a much more ideal situation than when the gay partner is lying to the straight one. You seem to assume that if Collins was honest with Moos that he’d necessarily be exposed to something he didn’t want society or the NBA or fans to know about. But he took a… Read more »
Lavender marriages can be open, or not. Sometimes a lavender marriage would be between two queer people, both of whom had a fake marriage to keep up appearances. So it’s a bit of an umbrella term. Anyway, OF COURSE it’s more ideal for everyone to be honest. Sheesh. If we lived in an ideal world, no one would have any reason to keep part of themselves a secret…no one would feel shame because of who they are, etc. etc. But, y’know, we don’t. And I don’t know how I can be any clearer, but assuming that he used Moos is…a… Read more »
I think the dishonesty is not resolved at all and the culture is a big part of propagating the lies. Collins is plainly not strictly gay but is at least partially straight. I assume that he was not practicing abstinence with Moos and that he was also performing properly. If those assumptions are true then he also has opposite sex attraction. But our intolerantly pro-gay culture doesn’t even allow for the correct description of affairs, that he is both. In the memorable Seinfeld episode, George got a massage from a man and fears that ‘it moved.’ But with Collins’ 8… Read more »
(comment was also made at glpiggy, hope that’s okay)
Good point. There are ways in which being strictly homosexual is more acceptable or more recognized than being bisexual. Maybe he wasn’t fooling her at all about being attracted to her because he was attracted to her. At the end of the day, I don’t see why it matters one way or the other whether he was physically attracted to her or not. Shoe on the other foot, I wonder how people would react if she pretended to enjoy sex with him so that she could get married and have children. A lot of people would simply say she sacrificed… Read more »
Let’s look on the bright side. Normally I’m a “glass totally empty” kind of guy, but here I see a silver lining. Beside all the things he did wrong, let’s see what he did right. He didn’t marry her after all. There’s no messy divorce or child custody battle here. He’s come out of the closet. He didn’t get 5-6 women pregnant scattered all over the country with children he’s not supporting. He probably wasn’t sleeping around with other women during his engagement to her. Considering all the other news stories we get about celebrities, including professional athletes, this is… Read more »
“Considering all the other news stories we get about celebrities, including professional athletes, this is actually somewhat refreshing.”
God, I know, right. He made a mistake and is a freaking human being, and everyone’s jumping on the hate train. Meanwhile we’ve got celebs doing all sorts of illegal and immoral nonsense without nearly this much moralising from the peanut gallery…but oh be gay and in a lavender relationship, and you’re criticized all to hell.
But you don’t even want the mistake to be mentioned. If it’s a mistake, then it deserves at least a passing discussion. As far as I can tell, nobody else has written an article examining where Collins’ ethics were lacking, but it is part of the story. It is what it is; that’s how Collins treated Moos. I’m not saying Collins deserves to be put in jail or even very harshly condemned; just that his shortcomings should be mentioned and Moos’ pain should be discussed.
Moos pain (assuming she actually is in any pain) could certainly be discussed, but framed very delicately and carefully. As I said, you want to criticise anyone, criticise the society we live in which has created situations like this at all. Perfectly valid way to acknowledge Moos’ pain and talk about how screwed up it is this sort of situation even exists. Turning this into a question of ethics, however, is where this thing becomes offensive. (That’s right, I used the word again). Because it isn’t a question of ethics, or ethical choices…it’s a question of societal pressures and norms.… Read more »
You offer all these high-minded defenses of Collins but I can’t look past the fact that you immediately question whether or not Moos actually feels betrayed or hurt by this despite what she’s said to the media. If Moos didn’t feel like she’d been betrayed or had her years wasted, I wouldn’t have even written the article. I’ve actually corresponded with her and she says that one aspect of her confusion and hurt is that she hoped that her and Collins would someday get back together after their breakup. Her thinking that is not necessarily recourse on Collins, but he… Read more »
Oh for goodness sake…I pointed out I don’t know Moos or Collins, so my point is that I don’t know the emotional state of either of them. That’s why I put that in there. And the fact that he was a millionaire who plays for the NBA actually makes the whole situation more difficult for him, in a lot of ways, not easier. The moment he started playing professional sports, his coming out (or not) went from a very personal issue to something that everyone would take notice of. So there’s more pressure to go into the closet and have… Read more »
Since when do societal pressures and norms preclude or purge any question of ethics?
I take it you’re not familiar with postmodern theory….
Unfortunately, I am familiar with it.
Friday, I sit in on the the weekly GMP conference call, while at work… The focus of the afternoon. seemed to be Jason Collins coming out. Which, for me, lacked enough meat to donate an hour to because I don’t view it as a a very big deal- the whole thing seemed like more of a whimper than a bang to me. As my sons, a couple of HS jocks observed, I guess Britney Griner means shit. I’m intrigued by one path the discussion went down; Collins was, evidently, engaged to a woman for a while during a relationship that… Read more »
“My immediate reaction is that there is some sort of prejudice inherent in this idea and i ask Why should Collins be any less of a user, of sweethearts, than any straight athlete stacking up girlfriends and baby mommas?” Perfect. I wish I had put it that way. I think the scandal threshold is much higher for the hetero cases. You have to reach the level of Anthony Cromartie to get any attention for being a sexual scoundrel. Or, if you have fewer kids with fewer women but are always starved for attention already, like T.O., then you get some… Read more »
Joann. You write: “Nobody is saying he’s a hero for breaking up with her. But he is a hero for being the first active NBA player to come out. You’re confused about the entire premise of this conversation.” In my opinion, breaking up with her was the first honorable thing he did in this process. Who is confused? Ultimately, THIS discussion was about what Jason Collins did to Carolyn Moos and the complete lack of compassion shown to her. It was not about the heroics of coming out as a BB player. If you are, as you say, “shocked by… Read more »
Amen to this.
This article went through quite a bit of discussion behind the scenes on many of the points raised in the comments here. I understand and accept all of them except for HeatherN’s which calls the article “offensive”. That’s just a lazy way of saying one doesn’t agree with the argument being put forth. But why is a closeted gay person leading someone on any different than a straight person leading someone on? The dishonesty strikes at the most fundamental starting point for what we can assume was Moos’s goals in that relationship with Collins. Collins knew he was gay and… Read more »
why is a closeted gay person leading someone on any different than a straight person leading someone on? Because the first guy is an imposter, and the second is your ‘regular run of the mill’ liar. The point is, Jason wasn’t very kind to Carolyn Moos and now everyone is hailing him a hero because he’s commented publicly that he will no longer be a dishonorable man. Hey – I’m not condemning him, I’m glad that he finally has the courage to live an authentic life and try not to hurt innocent women along the way. Also, the arguments that… Read more »
It rarely happens that people are shunned by their friends and family for being gay?! Where’s your data on that. From what I know, LGBT teens and young people have a high risk of suicide, and I know two gay people in my own life who were totally disowned for their sexuality and have no contact with parents. Two doesn’t sound like many, but remember that even at the highest estimations, only 10% of the population is other than heterosexual. Also, the next time you start to wonder about what it might be like for a man to come out,… Read more »
Interesting fact about Collins and Matthew Shepard. His chose to wear the number 98 on his jersey in remembrance of Shepard. He just didn’t tell anyone that was why.
Every single queer person I know has had difficulty with someone in their family accepting them. There’s the extreme: a few people I know were literally kicked out of their homes. One was sent to “conversion therapy.” And there’s the very lucky people (such as myself) who just had a coming out conversation and a couple of awkward years where you didn’t really talk about it because my parents were getting used to it. Most queer people I know either haven’t told their family for fear of their reaction, or did tell their family and one (or more) of their… Read more »
Joanna – I apologize for not being clear, I believe you misunderstood. First of all, you misquoted me. What I meant in the context of my response is that people are rarely shunned by their friends and family for COMING OUT – not for being gay. I’m not talking about teenagers, I’m talking specifically about men who have lead a down low lifestyle. When you are a grown man, you have no right to sacrifice innocent women because of your fears. I have MANY LGBT friends, I might even be myself – and I’m not saying it’s easy. Let’s just… Read more »
Fundamental flaw of the above: Collins was using Moos as cover. I think we can agree on that. Since that was the main purpose she served for him there was really no reason for him to let her move on… That’s a HUGE assumption. That he was with Moos as a beard is the MAIN reason? No way for you to know that. Maybe he loved her. Maybe he wanted to be a dad and have a traditional family with a woman? Because that’s what he dreamed of in his life, because that’s what’s normal, that’s what you DO if… Read more »
This, exactly. The reason the article is offensive, Chuck, is because it didn’t even entertain the possibility that what Joanna described is what happened. The article (like oh so many discussions about lavender marriages), assumes that the gay person in the relationship has a malicious intent. (And what the heck is with suggesting that calling something offensive is lazy? Some things are offensive. Pointing that out isn’t lazy). Chuck keeps using the phrase “strung along,” again implying that Collins knowingly and purposefully tricked Moos into the relationship. That is, as Joanna says, a HUGE assumption. And while I don’t know… Read more »
Well said Heather. Honestly, a bunch of mostly straight people arguing this is well, ridiculous. We don’t know why he made the choices he made. None of us know him. And of the straight people here, none know what it feels like to live like he lived. Having counseled many young people coming out, I can tell you it is one of the most stressful things I’ve seen people do, I can’t imagine doing it on a public stage risking employment. Does it hurt to be fooled? Of course it does. What a wonderful world it would be if men… Read more »
“I can’t imagine doing it on a public stage risking employment.”
I know, right. The fact that he’s a well-known NBA player doesn’t make being gay easier…if anything it probably made it that much more difficult.
Julie Gillis,
Under what circumstances would you express the same compassion for Carolyn Moos?
HeatherN, “The public condemnation is well out of order.” Wrong. He has made the rounds publicly accepted the accolades for his behavior of 7 whole days. Why are you excusing his behavior?
Really, folks, really? None of you have ever entered into a relationship that probably wasn’t built on the most stable foundation, but thought you could just get through it? No one’s realised that they might not be compatible with their partner, but kept on going…thinking that they could get over the hump? That they couldn’t give up on the relationship…that they could get through the rough patch. Love conquers all, and all that, right? Just need to work harder on the problem…just need to make it work. By all accounts he didn’t knowingly and purposefully trick her into a relationship.… Read more »
Not committing fully and being dishonest makes me an asshole as a heterosexual male. But if I came out of the closet, it would make me a hero.
Jason Collins is brave for coming out, but he was also a jerk to this woman. Equality is holding everybody to the same standard.
Nobody is saying he’s a hero for breaking up with her. But he is a hero for being the first active NBA player to come out. You’re confused about the entire premise of this conversation.
Nobody is saying he’s a hero for breaking up with her. But he is a hero for being the first active NBA player to come out. But the “coming out” narrative conceivably allows a person to co-opt the break up (or whatever questionable action in any case) as an element in his favor and for his sympathy, instead of letting that aspect be something that might count against him, or not count as anything at all. Personally, I do not think Collins did anything egregious. However, other persons have used their “coming out” event as a sympathy shield for bad… Read more »
thank you steve….you hit the nail directly on the head!
Steve523,
“Equality is holding everyone to the same standard.” I agree. Especially when the standard is expecting someone to accept responsibility for the choices they make and the damage those choices cause.
Not me. Maybe you should take a poll.
I don’t think you can blame her years of “wasted fertility” on him being gay. First, we have no idea if she wanted kids during those years or was pressuring him to marry her and have kids or what. Even if she was, plenty of women have been the same boat with straight men. If there is a lesson here, it’s about wasting years of your life on a partner who’s “just not that to you”. If a partner seems ambivalent about your relationship, they probably are. And they probably won’t change. In my experience with men, there is certainly… Read more »
Sarah, you believe that we can’t say whether she wanted to have children, then indicate that we can know that she knew he just wasn’t that into her. Really? I think we can say with certainty that she wanted kids; since, in interviews she has said they not only wanted kids, they planned it out (where to raise them and what schools they would attend). Maybe you missed those statements in your boys will be boys world. I haven’t seen or heard any comments from her saying she knew he wasn’t that into her. Have you read/heard that somewhere or… Read more »
If a woman really wants children she shouldn’t waste 8 years on any guy who isn’t ready to have them yet. I’ve seen this way too many times.
Being gay has nothing to do with it.
oh Sarah Sarah, being gay has nothing to do with it? OMG open your mind to the reality that he HID behind what he though he was supposed to do rather than live as he is. He could have been a “confirmed” bachelor for all his life and not involved a woman…..EVER
that you blame her for loving a man who is merely playing a part…..wow
Here’s how I feel about it.
I don’t know what it’s like to be gay. As a heterosexual woman, I’ve never had to experience what it’s like to be hated for my sexuality. On top of that, I’m not a person of color, and I’m not a man in the NBA.
Did he make the BEST choice? No. Does he deserve all of this, most often from heterosexual white people? No.
Joanna: I am a heterosexual black women who says: Yes, he deserves all of this. He is not the devil but he is not a hero. What makes this woman’s life(the time that she spent on him) any less valuable than his truth. We keep giving closeted men excuses but it diminishes the kids who never went in the closet, actually knowing the cost. Not just living in fear of what the costs could be. He hurt this woman by lying about his true desires and while I don’t think he should be jailed, I think that there has to… Read more »
Tiff216, I applaude you!
Tiff216, exactly!
“It might be and for the whole of his career he played the game and lied. What kind of hero is that?”
A human one.
I’m a white Jewish woman, what does that have to do with condemning his behavior and hiding who he is sexually from someone for 8 years, convincing her he’d marry her, planning a life with her….all the while never having wanted her. His ethnicity or race has ZERO to do with the lies he told or the time he consumed.
I think a lot of commenters are stacking all sorts of things onto this story, whether they are applicable or not. This is happening with his supporters and his critics. I wonder how much the fact that he was a closeted gay man really makes a difference in terms of judging whether he was “using her” or not. Moreover, it’s not clear to me that his being a gay black man and many commenters being (apparently) white and (apparently) hetero really makes a difference. We can’t just shrug and make no judgments whatsoever just because someone has a very different… Read more »
Actually, his being gay is not necessarily an insurmountable obstacle when it comes to the two of them having children. There are plenty of gay men who are biological fathers. It’s entirely possible that he could have come out of the closet AND married her AND had children with her, or some combination of the three. Or he could have come out to her and no one else and continued the relationship.
His coming out or not is clearly not the only issue here.
“To be sure, it is not just gay men who string straight women along. ” Men, Women and children string along Men, Women & Children….
Blaming an LGBT person who does his or her best to follow the rules of society, of his/her religion, of the teachings of his/her parents and family. Who tries so hard to be straight rather than to be whole. We’re wrong when we live as who we really are, and we’re wrong when we try to live as who you want us to be. And we’re weak when we see no way out. Thanks.
[Sue Gear = 17 years] ..and why now? Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad he finally made the right decision – honesty. This story has many facets, but the ones this article concentrates on are the INNOCENT FEMALE PARTNERS of these closeted gay men who pretend to be heterosexual and pretend to be committed to these women. This is a very specific issue, and I can’t figure out why or how anyone can find ANY fault with these women. Carolyn Moos wasn’t even on Jason’s short list of people to ‘come out’ to. She is still waiting for her apology.… Read more »
Nah – sorry, don’t agree at all. This is about being honest with another person, or having the will to tell a white lie to let the other person be free to continue their life. He is not an indigent, or a trail blazer, or anything of the sort. He could have told her he found her disgusting for being six foot six and let her move on with her life. The only grace I can support is if he was confused in his own mind, which is certainly a possibility. She deserved his honesty and he did not provide… Read more »
I’m with HeatherN on this. The problem is Societal. It’s too bad Moos made the choice to be with Collins, but that is life. You want perfect, maybe you should freeze your eggs and shop for the perfect sperm donor and have your children in a lab and feed them food from Monsanto, and on and on. Sexuality is a messy area and the sooner we as a people recognize that, and that it will never be Perfect, the happier we can ALL be. This ideal of marrying the woman, buying the house, raising the children in a harmonious world… Read more »
HarryM please step outside your closet. I know many people who own thier sexuality and bi-sexual couples who are swingers. Whether you agree with it or not that is at least living honestly. Carolyn Moos was not given any choice, as she did not have all the facts. Collins withheld the FACTS. So get your facts right! Seriuously, you are the one who is doomed and others of your ilk who obviously don’t believe in honesty.
Mr. Ross is correct. Jason Collins has known that he was Gay since adolescence. This is not some sexual fantasy, it goes to the core of the relationship – he wants a man not a woman. Suggesting Carolyn Moos question why she stayed for 8 years with the man she loved, who professed his love and proposed marriage to her and who planned a life, marriage, and children with her is an incomprehensible suggestion. It is astounding that she has been criticized more vehemently in the media than has he. To minimize the reality that women do in fact have… Read more »
I agree with you Kay. It’s interesting to me that people are more eager to discuss the choice Carolyn Moos had in being with him then they are the choice Jason Collins had in lying about the relationship. At the end of the day, we are all flawed human beings but I do think Jason has bigger culpability here. Women do not have an infinite time to have their own children and he wasn’t really thinking about her so much as he was himself. Does everyone want to have kids? However, if you are in a relationship for 8 years,… Read more »
Whatever happened to fool me twice, shame on me? “But he did take something away from her.” It’s perfectly natural for her to feel that way, and it’s somewhat true. However, if she really wants to heal, if she wants to learn from the past, she will need to own the choices that she made and examine why she made the choices that she did. If she simply puts all the blame on him for being a liar, then she is still liable to make the same mistakes again. If someone defines herself entirely as a victim, then she will… Read more »
I would like to respond to Heather N. You are correct that not everyone is fully accepting of the LBGT community, but millions of LBGT don’t go out and have fake relationships. People need to take responsibility for thier actions. You cannot excuse stealing 8 years of someones life on peer pressure in this day and age.
Paula, should Demi Moore be raked over the coals for “stealing” however many years of Ashton Kutcher’s life? I mean, they were actually married. I am shocked by the lack of compassion in this conversation. Also, Moos seems to be just fine. She seems to be a strong, competent, resourceful woman. Why does she need all of you defending her? You don’t know her, but you assume how she feels and that she needs people to somehow stand up for her. To what? She may be very happy in her life. To me it is offensive that everyone assumes things… Read more »
Why don’t you assume the same about Ashton Kutcher? We stereotypically presume that female sexuality is valuable and perishable with a very short shelf life. If a woman spends a good portion of her youth with a male consort and she does not receive a committed relationship in return, we judge that male consort harshly as having “used” or “wasted” her contribution of youth and sexuality. Because Ashton Kutcher is a man, we presume that his sexuality is predatory, consumptive and lasts longer than female sexuality. If his marriage to Demi Moore reined in his ability to prey upon other… Read more »
Joann, First, Ashton Kutcher was well aware of Demi Moore’s age when he married her, and her drug abuse history is legend. He had the knowledge to make an informed choice. Second, we don’t have to assume how Moos felt – she has stated it in interviews. If Moos is so powerful and omnipresent that for anyone other than Moos to point out what was done to her is unnecessary, then you must believe Jason Collins is weak and needs you to defend him since that is where you started and have stayed in this exchange. You ask how what… Read more »
We do not have to “assume things about her feelins and experiences” because she stated how she felt and her attitude about the matter. It is true that she is not weeping or vengeful, but she does not seem to be “just fine” as you suggest. She says it is “a lot to process” and “challenging.”
http://www.thestar.com/sports/basketball/2013/05/01/nbas_jason_collins_former_fiance_carolyn_moos_says_gay_announcement_a_lot_to_process.html
Joanna, how does a may-December marriage compare to a gay-straight marriage??? that you have the ability to question her thoughts/feelings after having planned a life and then call those of us who actually have survived the things that these sociopathic morons have done to us speaks so loudly that this is beyond a misunderstood issue. and yes, these guys choose strong women to use; somehow it makes their machinations that much more cruel. do we need to be blithering idiots to get “understood” by people like you? I don’t think so
First, not only did I NOT call you a “sociopathic moron” but I never would.
Who are “these guys”?
I’m sorry you’ve been hurt, Wanda, but you don’t speak for anyone but yourself.
don’t be sorry for me Joanna, I didn’t call you any names either. I ask you to open your mind to the possibility that smart women do fall for men who pretend to be other than they are. when it comes to sexuality, you (having not lived it) cannot understand the ramifications of somehow not being good enough, yet you keep trying because he’s blamed you all along for whatever has gone wrong and in the aftermath finding out that he’s gay and couldn’t every have loved you the way intended…….and no amount of trying or changing might have mattered.… Read more »
And now to move onto the big problem, which is this idea that Collins was deliberately using Moos as a closet. This last bit, right here, is just…so much wrong with it: “we can also criticize him for hiding in a closet that is actually a person.” Because no, you fucking cannot criticize someone for being in the closet, even if part of living in the closet involved being in a dishonest relationship. We live in a heterosexist world in which gay men (and women) are ridiculed, ostracised, and beaten to bloody pulps simply because of who they love. I… Read more »
Rant on, Sister. I totally agree.
No other option that the closet? How about the option of staying single in your closet?
Are you aware of the amount of pressure that gets put on people to form relationships? Do you know the pressure gay men face, constantly afraid that they will be found out, being told that they just need to be with a woman to “change their mind,” or even that being gay is a condition that you can “pray away.” There is tremendous pressure on men to go out and get women; to score. If you are not actively out trying to hook up, date, or in a relationship you will get ridiculed, you will have people say “what are… Read more »
How do you know who here is and who isn’t in Collins’ position? Life is very dangerous for a Gay man. You are rationalizing dishonest behavior that was at the expense of another person – this is what sociopaths do. He did not have to engage in a long term relationship based on a lie. Thousands of Gay men make a different choice and don’t expect Oprah to pat them on the head and say “Good boy”. Carolyn Moos made the mistake of loving him and Conan O’Brien ridiculed her publicly for several minutes at the top of his show.… Read more »
Exactly, so. This idea that Collins could have just been in the closet and remained single is ludicrous. A young, athletic, rich man not actively looking to hook up with women or date women? He’d have either had to come up with a really big excuse…like, joined a really conservative church or something…or he’d have had gay rumors flying about.
Young, athletic, rich … yeah there was nothing else he could do but lie to this woman for 8 years. Oh wait! He had the option of taking out a different woman every night if it kept the gay rumors away. No one knew Rock Hudson was Gay until he became very ill with AIDs. Again I ask, is there any behavior he could have exhibited in this relationship that you wouldn’t have excused because he is Gay? Let me ask this another question, do you think there is anything wrong with failing to tell your life partner what your… Read more »
Hang on, are you suggesting that some gay men may use conservative church membership as a way to hide their homosexuality? I am shocked. Shocked, I say!
Somebody tell Ted Haggard!
Well this is just…offensive, really. Like, I was trying to think of something else…but you know what, offensive actually fits. I’ll start with the small things…which is this whole idea that it’s somehow worse to waste a woman’s “prime years,” because what if she wants to have babies. Can we please, for a moment, get past the idea that romantic relationships are all about procreation? Please? Like, come on! The tragedy in Collins and Moos relationship does not lie in the fact that she wasted some of her “prime years” for baby-making. The tragedy lies in the emotional turmoil experienced… Read more »
First of all, what the hell does freezing her eggs have to do with anything? Unless you’re suggesting that Collins is responsible for her “wasting years of her fertility” or some pronatalist garbage like that. If she feels angry that she went too long without having a baby, that’s down to her choices more than anyone else’s choices. Yes, he lied to her, and I think he should offer some sort of apology. However, each of them had agency. She could have walked away at any time. He didn’t draft her. He probably changed very little over the course of… Read more »
I agree here. Certainly he was no more of a jerk than anyone who ends an engagement for any reason they had nagging in the backs of their minds.
I disagree.
It’s not like he ‘turned’ gay during the course of their relationship. He was gay before he entered the relationship. He was gay when he proposed marriage. He was and still is gay.
He is a con and she was bamboozled!
I’m heterosexual, and I haven’t shared about every fantasy or sexual urge with people I’ve dated. Especially when I felt it would be offensive. It’s easy to feel confused about whether certain inclinations are “wrong” and/or could change with time and effort. Not to have shared intimately about such feelings after being with someone for 8 years is sad, certainly, but it doesn’t make someone a liar or a con. I’m sure there are many loving, and generally honest couples who do not share their every sexual thought with one another out of fear of being rejected or out of… Read more »
Clearly you don’t know what a con is:
con definition
/kän/
Verb
Persuade (someone) to do or believe something, typically by use of a deception.
Noun
An instance of deceiving or tricking someone.
A disadvantage.
Synonyms
cheat
He stole 8 years of her life, period end of story. I was with a man for 25 years and married for 22 years. This narcissistic psychopath was having random casual sex with men he hooked up with on Craigs List, Grinder, the list of these sites is endless. Unless you have walked in my shoes you have no idea what it is like to lose your life. These men (and woman as well), clearly comparmentalize thier lives and are very good at living “straight” lives and playing the part of the devoted partner. My gay ex fully knew he… Read more »
Paula, I am sorry to hear about your experience, and I would also ask how is it that the guy being gay makes the situation any different than a straight man also running around and cheating? It’s the same. Cheating is cheating. In the case of Collins so far we have no evidence that he cheated on Moos. Did he? Maybe, maybe not. Just because someone is gay and dating a woman doesn’t automatically meant hat he was out running around and sleeping with men, he may have remained monogamous while dating and engaged to Moos. So if he didn’t… Read more »
I am sorry to hear about your experience, and I would also ask how is it that the guy being gay makes the situation any different than a straight man also running around and cheating? It’s the same. Cheating is cheating. A straight man “running around and cheating” would just be regarded as a generic scoundrel and degenerate. If the man is gay and “running around and cheating” with other men, he can use his orientation and prior closted status as a claim for sympathy to erase or minimize his infidelity and dishonesty. The issue then becomes “pity the poor… Read more »
Wait, you’re insinuating that Collins was cheating with other men, while he was with Moos?
No, I am not insinuating anything Collins’ actions. I was responding to KC Krupp’s hypothetical question in which he asked “how is it that the guy being gay makes the situation any different than a straight man also running around and cheating? It’s the same. Cheating is cheating.” And KC Krupp’s question was a response to Paula Scribner’s personal account of being married for 22 years to a man who was secretly engaging in sexual encounters with other men.
KC and Joanna, Yes, Mr. Collins is such a stand up, moral, ethical guy, I’m positive he would NEVER have cheated on Moos with men. No one has yet to ask him that outright, the media, politicians and celebrity’s are far too busy falling over themselves to glorify him on his heroic coming out party to have asked that question. I can guarantee the real answer to that question will also come out in the not so far future, by some of his gay lovers. So Carolyn only lost 8 years of her life. Hooray for her, and how noble… Read more »
Paula, Your ex deserves all the anger you feel towards him. But….how is all this venting working for you? Do messages like this make you feel better in any way or help you heal from the pain you felt? I suspect that writing about how horrible he was doesn’t make you feel much better but simply re-opens the wounds again and again. At some point he will be forced to own up to the choices he made. At some point, in order to heal, you will have to look at the decisions you made as well, if for no other… Read more »
Do messages like this make you feel better in any way or help you heal from the pain you felt? I suspect that writing about how horrible he was doesn’t make you feel much better but simply re-opens the wounds again and again. Why ask her if you seem to already know how venting works? But maybe some people find venting and catharsis to be helpful. At some point he will be forced to own up to the choices he made. It is a nice and comforting thought that all people who do bad things regret what they did and… Read more »
I suspect I know how venting usually works, but I don’t know for sure. That’s why I asked. I freely admit that I could be entirely ignorant on the matter, which is why I asked if it was working for her. Perhaps it really is cathartic. In my own experience with venting, it certainly pumps up my self-righteousness, but I’ve noticed it doesn’t really help heal anything over the long term. Just curious if her experience is the same. You’re right, that thing about him owning his own choices was pretty trite on my part. I’m getting all soft in… Read more »
To Wellokaythen,
If you had any clue as to how rampant this problem is in society you would realize the ignorance of you statement. Enough said.
Hmm. I’m at a loss to see how the scale of the social problem makes a difference in whether an individual can examine her own choices or not. Are you saying that because this problem is so rampant that your choices made no difference in your life? That sounds like a terrible way for you to treat yourself. But, okay, for the sake of argument, let’s say the problem is way too rampant for any person to have any individual agency. At what size does a problem become small enough that a person has to examine her own individual choices?… Read more »
wellokaythen, Your first assumption is incorrect in that I made a choice to be married to a sociopath gay man. I didn’t have the facts to make a choice. These men (or women) compartmentalize thier lives and are adept at hiding it. When you are in a long term relationship with a partner, your sex life is healthy and he is playing the adoring, loving, caring individual displaying characteristics in public of a moral human being how can one have possibly made a choice? I accidentally found out when he was in an accident and I went to shut off… Read more »
Still not seeing any language about making a choice of any kind, not even a choice based on false information. You did not choose to marry a sociopathic closeted gay man. Totally true, and for that you deserve all the compassion in the world. But are you strictly a victim of a massive social evil, or are you also an individual who had some tiny part in that horrible relationship? You were exploited and victimized, but was that the only role you had in that marriage? On a related note, I’m not sure what difference it really makes if one’s… Read more »
Sorry, that last message was just me being pigheaded. I’m already regretting what I said. I’ll cut out some of my own BS and make it simple:
I believe you. I feel compassion for you. I hope you can find some measure of healing. I believe there are many, many people in your situation. I believe the statistics you have cited.
Simple questions that my therapist has asked me multiple times:
How does stating all these facts help you heal? Is this helping you heal or learn or grow or is this serving some other purpose?
Stating the facts is educating people like you, who don’t have a clue. If I can help just one person with this knowledge, then I am serving a purpose. And yes, helping others is healing and it makes you grow as a human being.
Unless you’re suggesting that Collins is responsible for her “wasting years of her fertility” or some pronatalist garbage like that. If she feels angry that she went too long without having a baby, that’s down to her choices more than anyone else’s choices. It sounds like a variation of the grievance yelled by discarded and disgruntled first wives. You know, when they say, “I gave him the best years of my life!” or “He stole my youth!” The idea being that they wasted their most physically attractive life period in devotion to someone who, for whatever reason, turned out not… Read more »
“Pronatalist garbage”?
Do you realize that most of us exist because the people before us were buying into this “pronatalist garbage”? Moos wanted kids, seemingly with a man that she believed at least had some fundamental level of sexual attraction for her.. I don’t think she should be condemned for that, but I’m sure there are plenty of people (perhaps you, okaywellthen) who think that anyone who yearns for children in this type of relationship is a flawed individual.
Chuck, explain to me how Collins is, in ANY way, different from anyone else who breaks off a relationship/engagement after 8 years. For any reason. Seriously, I’m looking for specifics. I know a couple who were together 6 years, talked about a life together, shared finances, planned on kids, etc. The boyfriend in that situation always felt there wasn’t enough of a “spark” or chemistry with his girlfriend, but he loved her and so he stayed with her. He wanted her to be the mom of his kids. But after witnessing a friend go through a divorce, he decided he… Read more »
Joanna, You’re going behind the scenes here to why GMP chose to run the piece. I’d ask you to take it up with the editor I mostly deal with. We had extensive conversations about the piece. He had some strong criticisms, but we both understood that this is an op-ed. It’s my opinion which I did not force GMP to run. The New York Times has an editorial slant, but they also run op-eds that run counter to it. They entertain many different angles on various topics. I’m not sure that GMP has to publish only articles with which you… Read more »
“Do you realize that most of us exist because the people before us were buying into this “pronatalist garbage”?” I can concede half of your point but dispute the other half. Many of us are here not because our parents bought into pronatalism but because they didn’t give it much thought at all. Half of all pregnancies in American today are unplanned. That’s 50% who are alive not because they consciously wanted to fulfill the great destiny of having children but because they had an “oopsie.” Hardly a marvelous miracle when the miracle comes from getting drunk or forgetting to… Read more »
the last time you were duped by someone hiding their identity was??? when you’ve lived her shoes you may judge, and yes he took valuable time from her child bearing years!