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Welcome to the second installment of The Good Men Project’s Conversations on Race, where we invite friends and strangers alike to discuss and explore their awareness of racial identity in America.
This week’s conversation features Adelaide Lancaster and Dr. Kira Hudson Banks.*
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Adelaide Lancaster
Hi Kira! It’s a little funny to be having a planned/unplanned conversation…
Kira Hudson Banks
LOL!
Adelaide
Do you have any ideas about the best way to begin?
Kira
Remind me of the charge? To talk about race generally, or talking to kids about race?
Adelaide
I think it’s about us, but that’s obviously an area we have in common too. Perhaps how we make sense of ourselves in our work…I’d love to know more about what has called you to do all that you do!
Kira
I grew up in Edwardsville, IL, which was about a town of 10,000 when we moved there. My parents both grew up in the city of St. Louis and were committed to raising their children where the best schools were. Being a predominantly White town, we were like the Huxtables (from the Cosby Show) to them– White and Black folks alike. We were an anomaly. My dad was a physician and my mom an entrepreneur and then CEO of a non-profit. Folks didn’t know Black people like us. So growing up I didn’t fit in anywhere and I became intrigued by how race, and how we think about ourselves and others in terms of race, shapes our experiences.
Adelaide
When did you first feel like you found your place? Both where you felt like you fit in but also where you had questions about race answered?
Kira
I was only one of 2 or 3 non-White students in my advanced classes. I knew that wasn’t because other kids weren’t smart enough. I remember a guy who was in the advanced classes and then dropped back a track. He felt like he couldn’t do the advanced classes AND football. So he picked sports. I knew plenty of White students who did both, why not him? I’m still looking for my place, but I began to find it in college. My mentor there, Beverly Daniel Tatum, introduced me to racial identity theory. William Cross happened to be at UMASS-Amherst at the same time and was revising his theory of nigrescence. It was an exhilarating time for me.
Adelaide
I didn’t realize that Beverly Daniel Tatum was your mentor! Amazing!
Kira
Yes, she is amazing. I met her the first day of classes, and the rest is history. That’s why I always tell students to go to office hours, lol. College was where I began to make sense of and found language for my experience. How about you, when did you, a White woman who could choose not to care about race start to think about it and talk about it with others?
Adelaide
I went to college trying to make sense of the world and race in particular. My favorite teacher in 3rd grade was an African American woman who did a lot of “diversity” work at our nearly all white elite private school. I had the chance to be in some “committee” conversations at an early age. I can’t remember particular things I learned then but I knew enough to know 1. that it was really complicated 2. that people had really different experiences based on who they were and 3. that my family was pretty defensive about the process and it felt fraught to talk about, even when we were supposed to be participating. I ended up finishing high school at a southern boarding school where I had and witnessed profound and profoundly painful experiences about race.
Kira
Where did you grow up?
Adelaide
I grew up outside of Philadelphia. Similar to St. Louis county in many ways. My boarding school was outside of DC but had mostly very southern students. I was one of few “yankees” and heard people often refer to the Civil War as “the war of northern aggression.” I about lost my mind and felt very out of place and struggled regularly with the idea that I’d have to compromise my morals if I wanted to have friends. I went to college with a well intact perspective that the north was not *that* racist… then I got into some classes about race and education and learned how wrong I was.
Kira
Boarding schools intrigue me, and I shudder to think about what indignities my Black boys might experience there. I am feeling like there is nowhere safe for them, but in particular, I fear what could happen with other kids in the community who haven’t been raised to value racial differences.
Adelaide
I think it was awful. They were stereotypically revered athletes and treated so differently as part of the community. I can’t imagine it was very safe at all. I actually went to the same college with a Black guy from high school and then we both lived in NYC after that. He’s been an important friend but I feel like even only recently would I likely be an OK person to talk to about what that experience was really like.
Kira
How long were you there?
Adelaide
I was there for the last two years. The norms were startlingly different. And while my conclusions and perspective was still way off, it was a catalyst in my journey.
Kira
And then you went to college in the North, correct?
Adelaide
I did. I went to Colgate in upstate NY. Also not a great experience but I learned a lot. I then followed the name of Dr. Robert Carter and his racial identity work to Teachers College in Counseling Psychology.
Kira
Racial identity theory has a way of grounding emerging adults!
Adelaide
No kidding! But even now I look back at myself in graduate school and think about all I *thought* I knew then.
Kira
Ditto!
Adelaide
For me, parenting is what has pushed me the most. How about you? Did parenting cause a shift?
Kira
In general or in terms of race? It caused all sorts of things to shift. LOL!
Adelaide
Both! I didn’t expect that my experience being a white parent of white kids would be as much about race as it is. I wouldn’t have thought that it would have been the next big push in my own racial identity journey. But kids have a way of holding you accountable and keeping you honest. (And yes, they’ve shifted a WHOLE lot of things not appropriate to mention here!)
Kira
It has pushed me to get clear about what matters, and forced me to articulate rather than merely feel my way through things.
Adelaide
Hmmm, I’m interested in the difference between articulation and feeling your way…
Kira
What I have come to understand as what it means to be Black, why that is, what that means for where we live, put them in school, who gets hired as tutors and sitters….
Adelaide
Sort of a pro-activity or intentionality?
Kira
I can say that I am proud to be Black and feel that being Black is not monolithic, but what does it look like to teach my kids that?
Adelaide
Totally. For me, I think their eyes and ears are what has made me LIVE my values and be accountable to my values instead of just have my values live in my head, but honestly, I still feel like it’s my community and friends and colleagues of color that hold me accountable for the outcomes of kids that don’t look like mine.
Kira
One day, I said “Black is beautiful” to my 7 year-old. He said that was being mean to White people. I reminded him that me saying Black is beautiful doesn’t take anything away from or mean anything malicious towards White people. It’s simply that the shows he might watch and ads he might see are telling him that White is beautiful. So I feel the need to articulate that Black is beautiful, so he can be sure to know that to be true. He wasn’t buying it. But to me that’s an example of where I need to be mindful about how I’m teaching or modeling the values I want him to possess.
Adelaide
Yes. And similarly for my family in a way. It’s really only recently that I’ve come into fuller contact of how harmful racism and white superiority is for me and other white folks. So much of my life has too (but differently) been dictated by a conformity standard…and one that is tied to internal worth and love and appreciation. It’s easier for me to meet the standard and then also inflict it on others…and my children, too. So much to un-program in order to make space for a multiplicity of beauty and goodness and talent and wisdom, etc.
Kira
Yes, so much to unpack. Say more about the accountability you have for other kids.
Adelaide
So, I’m trying to constantly be mindful of what is it that we are doing to ourselves…and then to others as an outgrowth, and how those are related and where are the drivers.
Kira
Yeah…that’s a big one.
Adelaide
Who is impacted by my parenting choices? Who is in my community? Who do I care about? Who am I acting on behalf of? Who am I impacting through my own parenting decisions and through my children’s behaviors/actions/beliefs? Where am I unintentionally causing harm? Where am I silent? And how does race show up in all of that? An example: my son has several black students in his class. One boy in particular he is close with, another not as much. Three days in a row he came home with a “story” about this child hurting him or bothering him. By the third day, I said “are you telling me the truth or a story?” he said they were stories. I was saddened and also concerned about what is going on. So I told him that I was sad about the stories, that would talk to his teachers, and on top of talking about the problem of untrue stories I told him that sometimes different people can be blamed for things more easily than others. I told him I was worried for what his stories mean to/for this other little boy. Then the next morning I talked with his teachers and not in a “what’s going on” way but in a I’m concerned about the dynamic and the impact for this child. I asked her to please let me know if there is something more happening. So I’m trying hard to be mindful of how we are contributing and re-inscribing patterns
Kira
When you talked to your son, did you name the race of the boy? That vigilance is important.
Adelaide
We have named his race often, but not in that instant. When I said that some people can be more easily blamed, he said “like people with dark skin” and I said yes. It feels important, and yet, when you have a reporter who is an unreliable 4 year old it’s a little confusing!
Kira
Awesome. Yes, it’s important to name it. And to not make race always synonymous with “bad” stories. Which is why We Stories and books for children who happen to be from a variety of backgrounds is just as important about intentionally telling the stories about the experiences of those children.
It’s a “both/and”.
Adelaide
Yes, exactly. And also not to segregate the ‘We Stories’ books all together. Our bookshelf has exploded this last year…but one of the best moments was saying to the kids “let’s read the new We Stories books” and they said “which books are We Stories books?”
Kira
Are you in the county? I was thinking about how that works when you are in spaces that are hypersegregated, so there is less contact.
Adelaide
Yes. We are. In Webster Groves. Do you feel like living in the city allows you to have more of the experience you’d like vs. what you experienced as a child?
Kira
Absolutely. It’s why we don’t live in Edwardsville or the county for that matter. Yet the resources we want to access are often out there. For example, my kids go to a robotics camp at Maryville University. It’s a 30 minute drive, and traffic stinks. One day my son asked why we have to drive that far for robotics.
We shouldn’t have to. We had a long talk about systems, resources, investment, divestment, the history of St. Louis, city/county, and our decision to live in the city and access resources rather than live in the suburbs. But it’s not fair. And I’m privileged to be able to afford the dance it requires.
Adelaide
The segregation is awful, and awful for kids. I feel like we cart ourselves around the city to get unsegregated all the time. Wouldn’t it be nice if Lafayette Square park (their favorite) was our neighborhood park.
Kira
Yes, it would. And it would be great if all the amenities that are in the county were in the city.
Adelaide
We bought a house in StL/Webster 8 days after learning we’d move here. I’ve seriously considered moving out of Webster once a year every year since. But then “doing the work where you are” has always prevailed…
Kira
Looking back, would you make a different choice?
Adelaide
I would. I now get to talk to incoming medical families and give a lot of different advice. I specifically ask what they’ve heard already and then counter the stereotypes and list of dos and dont’s I received.
Kira
Where would you have chosen to move?
Adelaide
I like your neighborhood! I mean your school is amazing and your neighborhood and park proximity is enviable. I think we’d have landed somewhere in Tower Grove/Shaw or maybe Soulard.
Kira
We like the racial and socioeconomic diversity of where we are, but are concerned we will be driving every which way come high school because of the limited school options. Yes, it’s amazing. I wouldn’t trade the school and park. Although, no school is perfect. And the kids are only there for a short time (yikes!)
Adelaide
Or University City and gone to University City schools, which were sold to me as a total no go.
In retrospect I was a baby parent and a parent of babies…I had no idea what was important to us as a family and was very susceptible to advice and examples from others. Now I have tons and tons of models/examples of families all over the city and I realize that most any of them could have been us.
Kira
My concern is layered raising Black boys.
Adelaide
Yes…say more.
Kira
I’ve had a teacher say my 5 year old is threatening them, because he said he will tell his parents what she made him do. I’ve had people assume my child is less intelligent when he actually performs several grade levels above. They set low expectations, and as a child, he lowers his actions to meet them. But all you have to do is set the bar high, and he bounds over them. I’ve been branded as “that mom” pushing him, rather than being seen as advocating for what he needs.
Adelaide
It just feels so overwhelming, so hard to be fending off in every direction…teachers, other kids, parents of other kids. Quadruple consciousness. Sometimes all the while having to protect the notion that any of it is even about race.
Kira
I share that to say, people say move to X, they have great schools. But I don’t trust anywhere with the education of my child. I don’t believe those places that look great on paper really love Black children. I believe they are tolerating them at best. And I refuse to pay tens of thousand of dollars to have my child have the experience like your friend at the boarding school. I know I can’t protect them from everything, though.
Adelaide
I believe you. And that’s such fierce love. My mom didn’t want me to go to boarding school but my dad’s family has a long tradition of early boarding school and having other people raise their children.
Kira
Yes, it’s exhausting. And it’s not fair. There are days that I get so pissed, because I wish I could only focus on the STEAM curriculum when choosing a school.
Adelaide
I hear that. Finding the safest and most supportive place is such a big component and probably comes first in terms of importance…and then requires that something else has to give. And in many places parents are comparing ratios of screens to children ;/
Kira
How did you feel about that?
Adelaide
Which, boarding school? Or, what you shared?
Kira
Boarding school, as the child. Was the piece about other people raising you in your mind then or only in hindsight?
Adelaide
I wanted to go. I felt suffocated in my home community and things at home were hard. So I had wanted to go for years…plus it was shown to me as a normal option. My dad died when I was in 8th grade though and my family wasn’t ready for me to leave. So I stayed. I then was essentially bullied out of my school in 10th grade though…so I had to go somewhere and I really wanted a clean start.
Kira
Thanks for sharing. Whoa, bullied out of school. What was the content of the bullying?
Adelaide
I think it started as girl stuff. I told someone that I couldn’t misbehave as much anymore because my family needed me to get my act together. (I was being hard on myself but I could tell I was down the wrong path.) So that group stopped talking to me, which turned into much of my grade alienating me, and having experiences being shouted at, harassed, my car damaged and vandalized, etc.
Kira
That sucks.
Adelaide
Yes, and challenges have made me who I am. I feel claustrophobic in spaces and institutions like that and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. On the boarding school piece though… I went to the Heard Museum in Phoenix this year and went through the boarding school exhibit. I was so struck by all the messages and campaigns from the Indian Boarding Schools. This history is so sad…and the added layer of sadness is that these messages about what it means to be a man or to succeed is what they/we serve our own kids too. We regularly outsourced the care of our families and it is not surprising therefore that we took that from others. I had a college class about Indian boarding school and this level of connection eluded me then. Now as a parent I think so much about the limits of protection and knowledge and care…which is some of what you were saying above. It’s so much easier for me to have the illusion of safety for my kiddos :/
Kira
It’s good to have a strong sense of your value system. Do you think that illusion of safety is a false thing?
Adelaide
No. I think it’s real that my kids are safer than brown and black kids. They will get the benefit of the doubt in ways that can literally save their lives. And institutions are built with them in mind so they really have to work hard to be counted out or use up chances. And that is really heartbreakingly unfair.
But/And we harm our white kids in lots of ways that allow them to value self above community and to disconnect from the humanity of others…and I’m not sure where we can be safe from that.
Kira
I really appreciate you acknowledging ways your children are taught to value self and the disconnection from the humanity of others White supremacy breeds. It’s so sad and maddening many White folks don’t see that or won’t admit it. Those are definitely costs of racisms for Whites. The disconnection from the humanity of others is also a function of capitalism in my opinion, and that’s hard to disentangle from in the US. And that’s a whole other conversation! It’s been fun to chat a bit. We could go in about ten different directions. But let’s keep talking.
Adelaide
I appreciate you, Kira. I’m looking forward to continuing the conversation!
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Dr. Kira Hudson Banks is an Associate Professor in the department of psychology at Saint Louis University. Her research examines the experience of discrimination, its impact on mental health and intergroup relations. Her courses have ranged from Abnormal Psychology to the Psychology of Racism. She has published in American Psychological Association journals such as American Psychologist, Cultural Diversity and Ethnic Minority Psychology, Journal of Diversity in Higher Education, and The Harvard Business Review and popular media outlets such as Huffington Post and The Atlantic.
As a consultant, she has worked with schools, communities, institutions of higher education and corporations to improve diversity and inclusion efforts and engage people in productive dialogue and action. She most recently served as a racial equity consultant for the Ferguson Commission and has continued as the Racial Equity Catalyst for Forward Through Ferguson.
Her consulting firm, The Mouse and the Elephant, is committed to developing customized curriculum to meet companies’ long-term needs. She received her BA from Mount Holyoke College, where she was inducted into Phi Beta Kappa, and her MA and PhD from the University of Michigan.
Adelaide Lancaster is a born and raised East-coaster who is still surprised by how much she loves living in ‘the Lou’ as St. Louis is often called. She co-founded, with Laura Horwitz, We Stories, an non-profit organization that utilizes children’s books to help families and communities start and strengthen their conversations about race and racism. Since its inception in 2015 it has supported hundreds of families who want to offer their children early education and exposure to conversations about race and has partnered with dozens of leading regional organizations to strengthen their offerings for families. Adelaide’s interest in racial equity began while earning her B.A. in Educational Studies and Sociology from Colgate University. She went on to earn a M.A. in Organizational Psychology and a M.Ed. in Counseling Psychology, where she studied racial identity development and group dynamics. She has spent most of her professional life as an entrepreneur, community builder and advocate. She was co-founder of In Good Company Workplaces, a first of its kind co-working space for women entrepreneurs in Manhattan, which opened in 2007. In Good Company has served thousands of women entrepreneurs and has helped shape the shared workspace industry of today. She is also an active parent in her school district, a proud supporter of many civic organizations, and is honored to currently sit on the board directors at Forward Through Ferguson.
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