When Cornelius Walker observed his son’s particular interest in a girl wearing yoga pants, he realized it was time to discuss respecting the right of women to feel safe and secure.
I like women in yoga pants. If I see a woman with her yoga mat slung across her back, stainless water bottle in hand, rocking a pair of lululemon crops my eye might linger perhaps a half-second longer than usual. The first time I noticed them was at a coffee shop, where a young student (I presume, living in a college town as I do) came in for a chai latte. At first I thought it an odd fashion choice for the bitter New England winters until my companion alerted me to the yoga studio across the parking lot. Since then yoga pants appear to be everywhere: at the gym, the home improvement center, the DMV. It certainly doesn’t hurt that yoga practitioners are often young and fit. It’s clear these women spend time working on their bodies, and if they didn’t want others to take notice they wouldn’t wear such revealing clothing.
At least that’s what I’ve heard, but not from women. Because when I ask women—and I have—they universally say they wear yoga pants for comfort. I’m sure there are women out there who do want you to look, who derive some pleasure at the titillation caused by the sight of their shapely rears in pants that appear designed to aid those who suffer from a deficit in imagination. The problem is, those women are rare and they’re indistinguishable from the women who are simply out and about during their day, whether on the way to a Hot Power Vinyasa session or just to the corner store to pick up a pack of smokes. A pair of yoga pants is not an invitation to ogle, let alone comment.
I was reminded of this the other day when picking my seventh grader up from school. There was a cute girl a few yards away wearing yoga pants and I noticed my son looking a bit too long. When I was his age the boys thought it was all good fun to go around pinching and slapping the girls’ butts. “Of course the girls enjoy the attention,” they rationalized, but anyone who cared could tell the difference between enjoyment and the look of horror that crossed many of those faces. The boys weren’t pinching and slapping butts because the girls wanted it, they were doing it for their own enjoyment. If there was a girl or two that did enjoy it, that’s of little comfort to the many who were violated.
I turned to my son, “you know, even if the girl chose those pants to make her butt look cute, you still shouldn’t stare or comment. Her wanting her butt to look cute is not the same as her wanting you to comment about her butt. And staring is just rude, and makes some people uncomfortable.” He paused for a second, while the words sunk in. It was clear he hadn’t ever thought about what she wanted. In fact, I doubt he was even aware that his staring had any impact on her.
“But what if she does want you to comment?” he asked, always looking for the loophole. “She’ll let you know,” I replied. I thought to add, “and if you’re married to her, the answer is always ‘you look great'” But there’s no need to perpetuate that tired stereotype…
Photo: Flickr/lululemon athletica
So is it bad for your son to stare, period?
Or is it only bad if the person he is staring at realizes that he is staring?
I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily good or bad to stare, only that one should consider whether it achieves their desired outcomes and weigh the potential for harm. If your goal (or distant dream) is to get to know the person better, and set them at ease around you, staring is likely to work contrary to that purpose. If you’re not concerned about how your staring might impact the person negatively, and how that negativity might contribute to the discord in relations between the sexes, then staring seems a good start in that effort.
If your goal (or distant dream) is to get to know the person better, and set them at ease around you, staring is likely to work contrary to that purpose. Probably. That is, if that person realizes that the other person is staring. If the staring person successfully uses stealth or subterfuge to evade detection, and the person he is staring at never realizes or finds out, I do not see how that person is going to be upset or discomfitted. The staring person may or may not have distant hopes of interacting or engaging with the person he is… Read more »
Nick – great dad.
Ed – the good part: You’re here reading. The measure of intelligence is being able to absorb and change one’s view point by growing in empathy. I hope you’re intelligent enough to do this. (Which will require your modifying your male privilege mindset.)
I’m surprised at how offended so many people are by this. he’s just letting his son know that you can look at an attractive female and appreciate it in your head, but to also be aware of how that person feels, and not to do something to make them feel uncomfortable. he’s not telling him that it’s bad for him to appreciate her attractiveness. there are ways to check somebody out without making them feel threatened. stare if you want, but if they notice, look away for a bit. don’t just keep staring at their ass. just be polite about… Read more »
*it’s NOT some huge denial of freedom
I think a good rule of thumb for everyone is to not stare at people in general. It is hard to do. It is human tendency to look at what one finds interesting. However, since most people do not like being stared at, everyone should be conscious that their gaze is not always wanted. Likewise, I think a good rule of thumb is to realize that just because someone is dressed a certain way does not mean they dressed that way to draw attention. Coincidentally, a few days ago I went with my godson’s brother to pick my godson up… Read more »
All good points, Jacob.
I think Nick may have been thinking about when a person says, “Do these jeans look good on me?” or “Do I have a fat butt?” which, sadly, is a pretty common conversation piece for teenage girls.
I agree about the staring. My son has girls who seem to like him, and when they stare he starts to feel like they’re teasing him or that he’s done something wrong.
You sound like a superb dad Nick – thoughtfulness is a great lesson to instill. And speaking of thoughtfulness: from Antoine de Saint-Exupéry in The Little Prince “Grown-ups love figures… When you tell them you’ve made a new friend they never ask you any questions about essential matters. They never say to you “What does his voice sound like? What games does he love best? Does he collect butterflies? ” Instead they demand “How old is he? How much does he weigh? How much money does his father make? ” Only from these figures do they think they have learned… Read more »
Cornelius/Nick, thanks for having that conversation with your son. I never knew yoga pants created such an uproar for men. I thought this was an important part: “He paused for a second, while the words sunk in. It was clear he hadn’t ever thought about what she wanted. In fact, I doubt he was even aware that his staring had any impact on her.” I bet your son isn’t that different from most boys his age. I’m sure that most boys don’t think about how their actions may impact another. That’s perfectly normal and he hasn’t done any wrong. But… Read more »
For the guys that see this as a negative, I don’t think many men would appreciate me complimenting on strictly their money. Like if I saw a guy pull out a big role of money and said, “Wow, you have so much money. That’s great.” or if he had a really nice car or house, “Wow, you must make a lot of money. I like it.” While smiling at him. It’s the same with women and their body parts. It doesn’t always feel like a compliment when the thing getting attention is more about what another person gets from it… Read more »
“If a woman compliments men for pecuniary and material aspects, they are probably not going to feel degraded and violated in the same way that women supposedly feel when men comment upon a female person’s physical/sexual attributes.” I think men do feel devalued and degraded when women pay special attention to his bank account. Alot of men don’t want to be used for their money and compliments about their money, from a woman, isn’t all that flattering, as you prove in your own comments below. And there is nothing “supposedly” about it. What alot of men don’t get is that… Read more »
I think men do feel devalued and degraded when women pay special attention to his bank account. You would rightfully object if I claimed to know how all women would feel and think in response to something. Likewise, it is wrong and unfounded for you to claim to know how all men do feel in response to something. When men present themselves in ways that emphasize their wealth and material advantages (driving a new luxury car, wearing an expensive suit, etc.), it is hard to believe that they would necessarily feel “devalued and degraded” if someone paid attention to the… Read more »
I think men do feel devalued and degraded when women pay special attention to his bank account. You would rightfully object if I claimed to know how all women would feel and think in response to something. Likewise, it is wrong and unfounded for you to claim to know how all men do feel in response to something. When men present themselves in ways that emphasize their wealth and material advantages (driving a new luxury car, wearing an expensive suit, etc.), it is hard to believe that they would necessarily feel “devalued and degraded” if someone paid attention to the… Read more »
Alot of men don’t want to be used for their money How much is “a lot of men”? Three quarters of men? Half? One quarter? If you mean “be used” in the sense that somebody will take a lot of a man’s money and he receives no benefit or gratification in return, then yes, a lot of men (and people in general) would probably find that unpalatable. However, some men do not mind “being used” for their money as long as they get something for their own interests in return. When men purchase pornography, they know that they are being… Read more »
And there is nothing “supposedly” about it. I am not doubting or disputing that most, perhaps virtually all women feel violated and degraded when men comment upon their physical attributes. What I am disputing is your suggestion that unsolicited compliments about a man’s money are of the same gravity, threat or peril as unsolicited comments about a woman’s physicality. Men do not view such a comment as the same kind of threat or danger that women view the sexual/physical comments. Therefore, it is not a compelling analogy. Certainly, some women do objectify men for their wealth. However, most men do… Read more »
What alot of men don’t get is that they unfortunetly usually only give compliments about a woman’s phsyical persons/sexual attributes because they are attributes that may best benefit *his* pleasure first. Not because he is sincerely giving her a compliment or even wants to sincerely compliment her and make her feel good about herself. Sometimes when men give “compliments”, they are not really compliments in the true spirit of a compliment. They are mearly giving credence to something *he* gains pleasure from first. This indictment that you make about sexual/physical compliments applies to any kind of compliment under the sun.… Read more »
I’m disturbed by the idea that it’s okay to use and discard a person for your own benefit while obviously wanting to be used and discarded as a person yourself. Call it disturbing if you like. I would just call it “reciprocity” or just a variant of the Golden Rule: doing unto others as they would do unto you. If I know that a person is willing to use and discard me once they get what they want, I would feel much less compunction about doing so to them. And the fact that a person is willing to associate and… Read more »
Someone that would do that to another person, even if that person had the same motiviation, is not better than that other person. Who says they have to set out to be better? They are just treating that person in like kind or similar fashion. However, I do think that such scenarios in which both sides intend to exploit each other are morally different from situations in which one side has good faith and the other side simply chooses to take advantage of that. A man might be content to exploit gold-digging women for his sexual gratification, but if he… Read more »
Infact, I would say that they were actually made for one another. Then why object to the match? I think you are being even more pessimistic than warranted. Even when both sides are out to use and discard each other, it is not necessarily an interaction marked by hostility or malevolence. When an old, moneyed man wines and dines an attractive woman, he knows that she is primarily there for monetary remuneration and material benefits. And he knows that she may discard him if he can no longer provide the material gifts or if she herself comes across a better… Read more »
I doubt most men would have their roll of money on obvious display if they were not prepared to shrug off the attention that came with it.
I really, really appreciate this, and I really wish more fathers had this talk with their sons. I have a great father and my brothers are good people, but while my dad himself wouldn’t publicly “compliment” female strangers because he finds that wildly inappropriate as a polite and married man, when I try to curtail my brothers’ inappropriate behavior by explaining how harassed I feel on a daily basis by what may seem harmless -albeit admittedly intense and obvious- stares and the apparent, frequent need strange men indulge to vocally objectify me…both they and my dad always dismiss me disbelievingly… Read more »
I think a compliment can be okay, if appropriate. My husband has a “classic” Toyota Land Cruiser and people who drive these cars (especially the ones 20+ years old) have this sort of brother/sisterhood. I’ve seen my husband walk up to a woman who was driving a Land Cruiser about his year, and say, “Great car, it’s in great shape!” etc. But he kept his distance physically and sort of judge her reactions as to whether she wanted to talk to him or not. I was waiting in my car watching this all unfold and thought about how wonderfully he… Read more »
If we expect men to be the primary initiator of relations between men and women then women are going to have to put up with unwanted advances. There is no way around it. Women can’t expect to live in a insulated bubble of privilege where men dance around their personal peeves. A women does not represent all women and the most sensitive ones should not set the bar for everyone else.
I think that the most important piece of advice this person is passing on to his son is that ,contrary to popular belief, most women do not dress a certain way FOR men. Just because a woman wears yoga pants, or a short skirt, or a low cut top, it does not mean that she is wearing it to solicit looks and compliments from men. Men are not questioned when they choose to wear comfortable clothing, yet somehow if a woman wears comfortable yoga pants she is “asking for attention”. That line of thinking is one step away from saying… Read more »
I agree with most of seriously’s comment. I don’t think that teaching your son not to ogle is teaching him that “his sexuality is a menace”. It’s teaching him to be generally respectful and considerate of the feelings of others. A lot of women are uncomfortable with prolonged stares and comments on their physique from men that they do not know or are not attracted to. Telling a boy that the best thing to do is to be mindful of that, and not press unwanted sexual attention on a woman, is not smothering that boy’s sexuality. It is teaching him… Read more »
Is this serious? A man’s sexual feelings are a menace to a society? That’s what you conclude? So what’s a woman’s sexuality then? The definition of evil? This isn’t about not giving compliments until you’re told it’s okay. It’s about being respectful and if you don’t see that then take a second to consider your presuppositions. I’ve found that men don’t consider how staring affects a woman, because the men are the ones staring and enjoying the privilege of invisibility. If you were stared at because of what you chose to wear that day, be it for comfort/convenience/fashion/etc, you might… Read more »
I wonder how much invisibility you could take and still consider it a privilige.
One word, JE:
Empathy.
If you want someone to have it for you, then you gotta do the same in return.
Exactly. And to blanketly describe “invisibility” as a privilige is hardly empathetic to the people who suffer from being constantly ignored and overlooked.
Yeah because being told that your invisibility is a (male) privilege is a great way to offer empathy.
I never said that.
I think you can at least try to understand what women go through. If you want people to understand your experience, your first step should be in trying to understand theirs. That’s a rule for everyone.
It doesn’t matter if they’re not doing it for you, some people will, you still have to be a good person. At least that’s the rule I go by.
I will try to be a good person regardless of what is happening around me.
I think you can at least try to understand what women go through. I did try at one point and learned the hard way that it simply didn’t matter. Trying to understand women only taught me that women have it worse and men should get to the back of the line because they have so much privilege. After working on the frustration of those results (and still being told that those results either did not happen or who knows how many other excuses) I’m back to trying again. But in the interest of understanding then let’s look at serious’s mention… Read more »
“I never said that.”
but the post I answered did.
“I think you can at least try to understand what women go through.”
I never questioned seriously on how women experience their gender role, only her conjecture on what the male role is like
No, by no means am I denying any harm of invisibility but I do believe that when you are the standard or the dominant one, you don’t take the time to consider how you got to be in that position, simply because it isn’t something you’ve had to think about. When I tried to have a similar conversation with a man who felt that all women enjoy being stared at and asked him to consider himself in that position, he couldn’t because he had nothing to relate it to. My comment was not meant to be generalized as my opinion… Read more »
Empathy would be women choosing to wear some loose shorts over those yoga pants so they don’t draw the gaze of 13 year old boys. Empathy would be not wearing outfits that our overtly sexual when that is not your intent.
empathy: n. the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
So a woman should be able to understand how a man might view her as a sexualized object that is seeking any and all forms of attention and should, on that basis, never wear anything form-fitting because it draws attention to her body? and she should understand that men simply don’t have the self-control to not give unnecessary attention to her because of her clothing? and she should assume that all men would respond this way?
I don’t think this solution would be positive for men or women.
No, Ed. I’ve been reading your comments here and on the other post about yoga pants. Normally I try to be empathetic and understanding, but your comments are way off the mark. Assuming that all women (and in this case, a 13 year-old girl) go out of our way to drive men into a sexual frenzy by wearing clothes we like is not only wrong, but dangerous. And insulting to both genders. Are all men really so primitive that the sight of a woman in yoga pants makes them lose all control? I don’t think so. Is finding such a… Read more »
Time to dust off my Jabba the Hut costume!
Would hate for someone to get upset by my skinny jeans or v-necks.
I knew I’d get some use out of that thing after all!
Finally, the men of the world can be free of my meddlesome breasts and bottom. Phew.
Good job. It’s never too early to tell your son that, as a male, his sexual feelings are a menace to society. After all, every man is one yogapant-ogle away from raping someone, right?
Yes, that’s exactly what I told him. I said, “Son, you’re guilty of rape until proven innocent, so make sure you’re completely deferential to whatever her wants and needs are and by no means are you to make your own sexual desires or needs apparent, you’ve got to keeps those locked away until you die.”
And if that doesn’t work, you can send him off to a John Stoltenberg retreat.
For a moment I thought you were being sarcastic. But then I realized that when it comes to rape men really are guilty until proven innocent (and then sometimes treated like as guilty anyway).
It seems like things are swinging from “making the comment whether she wants to hear it or not” to “assume that she doesn’t want the comment until she gives you the go ahead….and make sure its what she wants to hear”?
Danny, this is my little logical game:
What’s the worst that could happen if you gave her a non-sexual compliment? She doesn’t want to go out with you, but she’s not offended.
What’s the worst that could happen if you gave her a compliment sexual in nature (ie “nice butt”)? She doesn’t want to go out with you, you made her feel dirty and unsafe, and she thinks you’re an asshole.
So, you know, say something genuine and nice about something other than her body or sexuality instead.
What’s the worst that could happen if you gave her a non-sexual compliment? She doesn’t want to go out with you, but she’s not offended.
You sure that she won’t be? It may increase the likelyhood of not being offended.
Of course I’m not sure. But if you genuinely like her shoes and say something, without stalking or invading her space, you’re doing nothing wrong.
There will be people who are offended if you look at them sideways, so there will always be a risk of living and breathing as a human being on this earth. My guidelines should work.
As Dr NerdLove said, some women are assholes, that doesn’t make all women assholes.
“She doesn’t want to go out with you, you made her feel dirty and unsafe, and she thinks you’re an asshole.”
No that’s how you feel and you can’t speak for all women. She just might be a strong person who doesn’t find all male sexual interest threatening. You expect men to be hyper sensitive when engaging women but these young women many not be the shy butterfly you are.
What’s the worst that could happen if you gave her a non-sexual compliment? She doesn’t want to go out with you, but she’s not offended. What’s the worst that could happen if you gave her a compliment sexual in nature (ie “nice butt”)? She doesn’t want to go out with you, you made her feel dirty and unsafe, and she thinks you’re an asshole. Under the “Schrodinger’s Rapist” rule, even non-sexual compliments can be construed as offensive and threatening and can make a female person feel unsafe. The person receiving these compliments may take them as social transgression and preliminary… Read more »
So your son has been taught he can not give a compliment until he has been given a green light to give a compliment AND he should give the compliment that the requester wants to hear (especially if married)
Sorta to the first, and no to the second. Which is to say this: just because you think it’s a compliment doesn’t mean it is one. Context matters. Going up to a random person and saying “nice butt” isn’t usually taken as a compliment. That doesn’t mean you can’t say something nice – I had a woman compliment my shirt the other day – but commenting on body parts has a different context and is laden with more meaning than commenting on clothes. If there is a woman I don’t know, I’m not going to give her my appraisal of… Read more »
I second Nick aka Cornelius here. As a woman.
Please, NEVER say to me “nice butt” or “great boobs” or “you’re hot”. When I was single, a simple, “That’s a cool haircut” or “cool shoes” or “isn’t this line long?” (while standing in a long line, obviously) would go a long way. It starts a conversation.
Don’t say sexual things to people you don’t have a sexual relationship with. Just don’t.
I agree–not sure how commenting on the ass of a woman you’re not dating or married to, however flattering the comment might be, would be anything other than creepy.
“Don’t say sexual things to people you don’t have a sexual relationship with. Just don’t.”
That’s complete crap. You can’t make a hard and fast rule like that based on your personal preferences. There is such a thing as flirting that occurs prior to the onset of a sexual relationship and men can flirt just like women.
Thanks for the mansplanation! Without you, I might never have realized that actually, I love strange men coming up to me and making sexual overtures. Phew! I thought it was inappropriate, sexist, and immature to do so, but you have corrected my wrongful thinking. How would women ever understand sexism if it weren’t for helpful dudebros like you? Shame on me for ever thinking that women, not men, know sexism when we see it!
Seriously, Ed, that has worked for you? Saying a sexual thing to a stranger?
“Remember context” is the hard and fast rule. If you’re flirting, you’re establishing a relationship. But walking up to a stranger and saying, “nice ass” is not flirting. If you’ve been flirting and mutually escalating the talk to be more sexual, there might be a point where you can comment on how fine her ass looks in those yoga pants. Funny enough when I had just finished writing my reflection above I went to see a friend who happened to be wearing yoga pants at the time. I asked her why she was wearing yoga pants. “Because they’re comfortable and… Read more »
Odd to think women might have complexity in their experience of context and safety.
Making context a “hard and fast rule” seems kind of oxymoronic. Since context is something that necessarily varies and changes at the slightest aspect, different people will necessarily have different perceptions and readings of their context. Inevitably, one person will think something is appropriate in one context, and the other will think it is not appropriate in that very same context.
The only hard and fast rule that seems to be safe for all parties is “don’t say anything” or “don’t interact.”
How about just not teasing men in public? Do women not understand their physical appeal and the male biological reaction?
I asked my 13 year old son what he thought of women and girls in yoga pants and he said, “That they go to yoga class?” And I figured that was good enough for now.
And the DMV! Don’t forget that they also go to the DMV. That poor child needs more education, Julie.