When guys can’t believe in their natural power, they’ll believe in magic tricks.
—
Given that men and women are far more alike than different, and that most people are predominantly heterosexual, there are certain experiences and attitudes that both men and women share when it comes to the opposite sex. One of these is the frightening realization, around the time your sexuality develops, that the opposite sex has enormous power over you. They can break your heart, control your actions, completely dominate your thoughts, and (let’s be honest) basically turn off your brain.
This obsessive need for the approval and affection of the opposite sex that straight kids find themselves prey to is one of the defining aspects of our lives, and it’s terrifying. The awareness that girls, or boys as the case may be, hold so much unsought power over your mind and your actions can be frightening. It’s why young girls tend to adore what The Simpsons called “Non-threatening Boys“, the sexy but somehow desexualized lads in One Direction or the Disney Channel. They’re a safe outlet for these girls’ burgeoning sexuality, but they’re designed to not be scary. The immense power they wield over their fans will not be used to hurt them.
Another manifestation of this phenomenon was the assertion by many men in the 1960s and 70s that feminism was unnecessary because women already had all the power in the world. This assertion is still repeated by various MRAs who claim that desire for women is the driving force behind everything men do, and therefore all power and responsibility in the world devolves to women.
Indeed, the primary source of much misogynist anger toward women is from men who feel that women’s power over them has been abused, that they’ve been unjustly rejected or abandoned by women who they loved or desired, women who had that power over them. A key component of this anger is the fixed belief that that power relationship is one-way, that women hold the power of attraction over men, but not vice-versa.
It is, unfortunately, a belief that our culture encourages. Denial of the female libido is only part of it. We’re far too invested, culturally, in the idea that men are useful, but not attractive. This reinforces the notion of a one-way power dynamic of attraction and romance.
Just as it’s easiest to sell quack remedies to people without access to real medicine, it’s easiest to sell magic charms to people who can’t believe they have any charms of their own.
|
The problem is that in our culture, women are taught to make use of the power they have over men. All those articles about “50 Ways To Drive Him Wild!”, all the Wonderbras and negligees, it’s all part of the training women get, part of teaching them to maximize the power they have to turn men’s brains off, as it were. Unfortunately, this comes packaged with a whole lot of assumptions and programming about how that’s their only real source of power or value, something that feminism’s been trying to deprogram for decades.
The flip side of that, though, is that men are never taught to use our power to turn women’s brains off, to be attractive. We’re usually not even told that we have it. We tend to assume that some guys just have a mysterious ability to attract women, some unknowable secret that renders them immune to the sting of rejection or loneliness. We can’t connect that idea of being attractive to our own lives.
This is where the pickup-artist business model comes in. Unending books and seminars and “gurus” and god knows what all, all telling men that yes, the lies are true, women’s attraction to men is an impossible mystery that can only be unlocked with magic, and we can sell you the magic.
In the absence of any real sense of their own attractiveness or what about them might be interesting to another person, in the absence of any teaching or training about how to use their natural power of attractiveness, it becomes easy to sell men on magic tricks. Just as it’s easiest to sell quack remedies to people without access to real medicine, it’s easiest to sell magic charms to people who can’t believe they have any charms of their own.
The tricks they sell vary from relatively sensible stuff about being confident and interesting, all the way through to outright date-rape instructions, all of it lumped together under the same label. And all of it is selling men something they already have: the power to attract (straight) women.
Some men reading this will have an instinctive aversion to this idea; they’ve felt enough rejection and pain that they completely believe the idea that they are not and cannot be attractive just as themselves. They’ll buy into the crazy myth that 10% of men sleep with 90% of women just to justify their own experience in a way they can make sense of. These guys have a hard time believing that for every one of them, there’s a woman wishing she could find a guy to love her, to be with her, or just to schtup her into the middle of next week. These guys think they’re locked into loneliness forever, and consequently, are easy marks for guys peddling supposed magic keys.
—
What’s your take on what you just read? Comment below or write a response and submit to us your own point of view or reaction here at the red box, below, which links to our submissions portal.
◊♦◊
Sign up for our Writing Prompts email to receive writing inspiration in your inbox twice per week.
If you believe in the work we are doing here at The Good Men Project, please join us as a Premium Member, today.
All Premium Members get to view The Good Men Project with NO ADS.
A $50 annual membership gives you an all-access pass. You can be a part of every call, group, class, and community.
A $25 annual membership gives you access to one class, one Social Interest group, and our online communities.
A $12 annual membership gives you access to our Friday calls with the publisher, our online community.
Register New Account
Need more info? A complete list of benefits is here.
Fascinating stuff here…I am an old lady with a lot of boyfriend experience. I have noticed that young women are usually first attracted to ‘bad boys.’ Which most likely makes the good ones feel left out. It seems to happen in every generation. I know it certainly happened to my daughter. I am no psychologist, but I have a gut felling that this happens because young girls and women know in their inner Psyche, that they will never actually marry one of those types…because most of them know they would make terrible husbands and fathers. It sure is fun while… Read more »
Great article, Noah. I use the phrase: Enticing Desire. Women are sexual beings. Rather than try to figure out how to get around her defenses to let you do what you want To Her, Stoke the flame of her desire For You. Know that Yes, YOU can be worthy of being desired. YOU have value. Know your value. Add value, not just to women you want to fuck, but to everyone around you, and the world itself. Own your sexuality and your desire. There is nothing wrong with sexually desiring a woman. Allow yourself to feel what you feel without… Read more »
Dating events and the dating industry in general create an environment that triggers insecurities about our love-ability to romantic prospects. The better connections seem to happen in neutral situations when we are just relaxed enough and ourselves. In my opinion, those who are most comfortable in their own skin are the ones who easily make connections with others.
(((❤)))
in the heart of every woman glows a precious perfect jewel
delicious and delightful, it brightens every fool
she’s the key to liberation for every breathing man
so dive into her splendor and love her while you can
I don’t like the performative model of masculinity that this critique seems to be tacitly endorsing. You either demonstrate your mastery over women through your natural god given abilities or else you are “cheating” and resorting to “tricks”. But what if we stopped teaching men that they need to be “successful” with women or to have some kind of “natural” (No cheating!) mastery over women. I think that there is a far more romantic way of looking at how men can approach relationships. What if it was simply about finding somebody who is right for you? Most men and women… Read more »
True, some people don’t like the idea that some men are just looking for ass. Shaming or no, sometimes that is all we want though. I don’t pursue women to demonstrate success. I do it because I’m horny, because I enjoy it, because it’s fun. Romance and “masculinity” have little or no to do with it.
Aside from the people who write these articles… what guys give a damn about any kind of “model of masculinity”?
I completely agree with you. Why don’t need to put men in a box and say that pursuing sex is about getting a notch on your belt. Maybe men are looking for fun. That’s basically how we talk about casual sex when we talk about women; we need to apply the same attitude toward men. I’m not sure why you think you have more sense than me. That’s my point. This article puts men in a box where mastery is proof of a man’s authenticity and I am opposing that view. I mainly meant “romance” in respect to romantics relationships… Read more »
I agree with you, even though the “scene” is full of macho bullshit, most of the guys who try to learn this are trying to overcome their inability to meet and attract the “right” woman, and the best way to meet the “right” one is to meet a lot of them. Which is especially appealing to men who feel they never meet women at all.
Here’s the thing though – even though pick-up artistry bills itself as providing help for men that don’t seem to have much luck with women, there’s an awful lot of snake oil being passed out as good advice. Even worse, there’s also a lot of advice that when you think about it is pretty manipulative and all about, at best, deceiving your way into bed with someone. That’s the part of pick-up artistry that’s objectionable. There’s certainly room for dating advice that doesn’t have the macho bullshit, manipulative tactics, snake oil or misogyny of mainstream pick-up artistry (and some of… Read more »
This entire chain seems to perpetuate several myths which with I’m uncomfortable…
That a woman’s virtue resides in her hymen.
That women are intellectually inferior beings who can be preyed upon…
That I’m a PUA in training because I bathe and wear a clean shirt… On occasion…
The premise of the title is based on a horrible and insightful premise. Its a very popular premise and that really upsets me. The basic idea is that everyone is the same and that things should work “naturally”. Its based on the reductive idea that if things don’t work that way then we need to demonize people because they are supposedly using “tricks” I am really just so tired of this. THINK BIGGER. BE BIGGER. End this dehumanizing mentality that pretends that it is so enlightened but in reality its the opposite of enlightenment. What about all the men who… Read more »
Am I the only one who thinks it’s quite a leap, that some people seem to ignore, from “being entitled to one’s feelings” to “being entitled to making other people responsible for them” ?
Hi John Anderson I have to work,and unplug ,but read this From Mark Manson blog. I think he describes some of the unhealthy aspects of PUA teachings: http://markmanson.net/ ✺”Disassociating From Our Emotions A common way we bypass dealing with the emotional stress involved in dating is by disassociating our emotions from intimacy and sex. If we shut off our need for intimacy and connection, then our sexual actions no longer rub up against our emotional maps and we can greatly diminish the neediness and anxiety we once felt while still reaping the superficial benefits. It takes time and practice, but… Read more »
Hi Noah and thanks for the article.
But it left me a bit baffled, thuough. You seem to state the obvious, but when I got to the and I just got this “yes, and…?” feeling about it.
I mean, yes sure, there might be a woman out there who would actually like me and possibly even be attracted to me for who I am (and how I look!!?). But how to find her in a 3 biljon haystack when closing in on having lived 2/3 of your lfe?
Hi John Anderson Just thinking about PUA ( based on what I read on their websites) triggers so intense negative emotions in me,that I choose withdraw from this thread. ( I am not joking.) I prefer to enjoy life and believe in love,and trust that some men have decent values. But here is what Wikipedia writes today about PUA: ✺”The community claims that the above-mentioned concepts derive from scientific disciplines, such as the concept of social proof from the psychology of influence, and various concepts from sociobiology and evolutionary psychology (such as the term “alpha male”). However, the claims of… Read more »
Typo
Eric C. Hendriks’ sociological study “Ascetic Hedonism: Self and Sexual Conquest in the Seduction Community
Hi Iben, “I prefer to enjoy life” I understand and I agree and that is precisely why I don’t disagree with much (some of it is rapey and wrong) of what the PUA is teaching. If having casual uncommitted sex with many different partners makes some men happy and the women freely consent, I have no issue with it. I don’t think it’s right to limit someone else’s happiness because it doesn’t fit with your opinions / desires / beliefs. I don’t mean you personally are doing this. I think you’re a decent, caring, person, but as a general rule… Read more »
Hi John Anderson You are wrong if you think my negative reactions to PUA is that they have causal sex. I am Scandinavian and I have had causal sex without getting emotionaly hurt. My problem with the PUA is that they teach the use of LIES and MANIPULATIONS to get a woman into bed. Their instructions, their plan A,plan B,plan C…are all based on the use of lies and manipulations to get access to a woman’s body. This is not instructions on how to make an person in an office give you the info you ask for, it is manipulations… Read more »
Hi John
That ,men seduce women and women seduce men is not a bad thing. It is one of life pleasures,but we have to be aware what we are doing,and have respect for others feelings. Even men can be fragile souls 🙂
Here is a blog written by a man is a former PUA teacher,but now warn against it.
He writes well about it.
http://markmanson.net/modern-dating
I am sorry I called some men pathetic losers. Name calling is not acceptable behavior even when angry.
“I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.”
I thought you meant to write, “you can’t build an LTR on a lie.” But that would be crazy, because it happens all the time.
I got into PUA several years ago, went through the typical approaches and teachers, eventually, though, I came across a group called the Authentic Man Program. Other PUA teachers made me feel as though I could walk into any room or party and pick up any girl (and it did work) but Authentic Man program, rather than making me feel as though I could pick up an girl, made me feel like I was a better man, a better father. I’m not here to sell the Authentic Man Program, I’m just saying that a real PUA teacher has the same… Read more »
@ Michael Anthony
Wouldn’t that depend on your goal. If you only wanted to get laid, I would think the PUA approach would be best. If you were looking for a LTR. You can build an LTR on a lie.
“made me feel like I was …, a better father.”
Seems to explain it to me.
Not sure what you meant by your comments, could you be more clear? Everything in life, even PUA, depends on the person. If some guy just wants to go out and get laid, no matter what, then he’ll make it happen. Whether he’s paying some gay thousands of dollars to teach him how to pick up a girl or whether he’s paying a hooker. But not all PUA teachers are the same, so let’s not make that mistake. For an example, again, let’s compare something like Real Social Dynamics (RSD) versus the Authentic Man Program (AMP). If you’re interested in… Read more »
*sorry meant to say “paying some guy thousands…”
@ Michael Anthony “Where as AMP instructors would say something like: “Ok if you want to meet the woman of your dreams then you’ve got to be the man of her dreams. Hit the gym. Go for a hike. Join a book club. Socialize more with friends. Go out there and follow your passion…” ” I’ve found this or something similar to be most effective and I’m not sure why. I’ve always had more success with women when I’ve said screw it I’m going out to have some fun and if I hook up with someone double bonus. I think… Read more »
@ Michael Anthony This is what I meant. If you’re looking for a future mate, it’s best if you approach her authentically. It takes effort to live a lie and I don’t think anyone would be truly happy doing so. If you’re looking for a one night stand, then why not PUA if it can be done in an ethicl way and I understand there is some debate as to whether that can be accomplished. I will say this. In almost every relationship there is some deception. A lot of it is minor. Choking down someone’s cooking so as to… Read more »
The thing is a lot of people just assume that all PUA is inauthentic or “lying.” The openers, patterns, and closes are typically for beginners. And I guess you could call it “lying,” and at the same time, doesn’t everyone say “fake it til you make it?” They are a temporary fix that get some success for the beginner and help them to start learning and understanding what they’re doing. The goal isn’t to always be using patterns, the goal is eventually understand what the heck you’re doing, why it has the impact it has, and eventually forget about the… Read more »
Hi KC Krupp
May I ask a question? You seem to know a lot.
1: do the PUA gurus teach their pupils about the use of contraception and testing for STD between each new sex partner ?
2: do they teach men to make sure the woman consents to sex?
Hi Iben, As with everything I’ve said so far on this thread the answer is that it depends on the guru. There are some PUAs that are outright slimy, whose tactics can only be described as manipulative, there are others that are very upfront and honest and focus more on inner game (i.e. self development,) and there are lots of PUAs that fall somewhere in the middle; if you follow them, the guys who are really respected tend to start somewhere in the middle and then drift further towards the honest side of things. To answer your specific questions: 1.… Read more »
Here is some perspective on the Kickstarter book that spawned the most recent PUA blow up from one of the people in the interview I mentioned above and from Mystery:
http://www.xojane.com/issues/return-of-the-female-pickup-artist-defending-seduction-in-the-wake-of-the-redditor-kickstarter-scandal
Also, the guy responsible in the kickstarter campaign is in the NY Times interview as well. I think you’ll find his reactions there interesting.
Hi KC Krupp Than you for a long and fantastical answer 🙂 This is a good review what this is all about. My compliments ! It is exactly what you say here that made me angry at their teachings when I saw it on websites : ✺” That said, the PUA community is rife with the same misunderstandings about what constitutes consent as society in general…… Resistance (LMR), which are terms to describe when a woman who had seemed like she wanted to have sex and at the last minute backs out. Now part of the PUA assumption in this… Read more »
Iben, While my guess is that he isn’t a PUA, that doesn’t mean he isn’t. Even if he is a PUA that doesn’t mean he’s lying or being insincere. Most PUAs I knew were always very upfront about what they wanted. When I was actively dating I would say that was dating multiple women and that if at any point she was uncomforatable with that then we probably wouldn’t be compatible. There is this image that PUAs run around covered in scarves and big fuzzy hats, mainly because a lot of new PUAs took Mystery’s advice on peacocking literally and… Read more »
Hi John When a person expresses how she or he feels that is NOT shaming others. Do women sometimes treat men unfairly .yes we do. But to express how you feel is not shaming. A man that feels shame if an other person expresses that he has crossed a person boundary ,well maybe he has to reflect a bit on why he feels shame. I posted this article because it expressed so well how I feel sometimes. And actually felt in my marriage. So if you respond that women are dishonest and always lie,then I give up. That is exactly… Read more »
Hi Iben,
On some pf these threads I’ve also pointed out that men hitting on women is the only intrusive behavior that gets criticized. Suggest that panhandlers should refrain from asking people for money and you’ll be labeled as heartless. Suggest that women shouldn’t comment or fawn on strange babies and you’ll be labeled as silly. So if no similar behaviors are labeled as creepy, how is this not shaming men?
There was a recent ruling in one the America mid-west state supreme courts that denied a 17-year-old in foster care the right to pursue an abortion.
http://www.chron.com/news/article/Neb-high-court-nixes-teen-s-request-for-abortion-4869315.php
I can’t see this ruling as having anything to do with even the letter of the law. Let alone the spirit. It’s not a product of the educated mind. It’s clearly the result of feeling. The expression of the feelings of all these so-called judges are clearly shaming this young woman.
A person’s feelings are not so special as to be beyond question or criticism.
Sorry about my typos
Any man that is not visually impaired
Hi Jar You say: ✺ “On top of that women practise their own form of “game” by wearing makeup, push up bras, getting fake breast implants. Tell me, why aren’t these women being told to “just be themselves” ?”✺ Don’t worry jar, women are also told to “just be yourself” by self help books,psychiatrist ,family and friends. And we share the confusing about what this really means….. And if you refuse to be “conned ” into bed or a relationship by a woman’s use of makeup and breast implants you can simply reject any woman with makeup and implants. Because… Read more »
I don’t have a problem with women doing those things at all, my point is they’re not “being themselves” either. They’re tailoring themselves to the desires of men, the same thing PUArtistry does but for women by men.
As for your gym comment: while looks do matters to women, studies show the most sexually desirable men are those who are able to display some form of dominance (usually social). That’s what PUA largely is – creating communication patterns to display social dominance. There’s also a large focus on male confidence and belief systems.
Hi Iben, “And men have never been denied accesses to self help books and books about psychology and relationships . Men could just walk into any bookstore and buy them, you still can.” There are also articles on how women can get their boyfriends to propose, but these women are not criticized as being manipulative. They’re not criticized for reducing people to a calculation. When women are told to give men a marriage ultimatum, they’re applauded. It’s viewed as an act of love, but I don’t see forcing someone into a lifetime commitment to satisfy a need that you have… Read more »
Men’s desire for sex is one thing and and women’s feelings are something else entirely. It’s not like our cultures completely sold on the mind/body fallacy. Clearly the two can’t be equivalent!
ps: some poor women are in the same sorry state as many/most men–stuck with a low libido partner who prioritizes their lofty emotions over their partner’s base lusts.
Are they really all that different? One person desires some sort of emotional fulfillment. Yes sex feels good, but there’s a lot more wrapped up in it than just physical pleasure. Come on, the release is good and all but that’s not all there is to it. There are a lot of issues involving social pressures and expectations, ego, social value, etc in being sexually successful for men.
Sorry, a little sarcasm in there. i don’t think they’re that different at all.
Sadly because it works?
Same as cultivating a “bad boy” persona……if what women say truly worked neither “bad boy” or PUA would work…..yet both do…..to a limited extent. Personal favorite was the “redeemable bad boy” it worked even though I was short and troll like, albet with decent wit, fierce emotional warmth and a reasonable intellect. Without the persona it was “friendzone” all the way, with it was making out in bars and darken cars along with the first encounter BJ’s quite often……those came way before I asked or expected them……they were welcome though.
I’m assuming a hetero normative approach. Here’s the thing. All guys know that women / girls are sexually attracted to men / boys. We learn that early. We know the reverse to be true. This is fact all the weird stuff about society telling us that men are not sexually attractive is BS. I knew my sister had a crush on Shaun Cassidy and various other guys. She knew I liked Linda Carter and various other women. To perpetuate the myth that this is a secret know one knows is snake oil to sell articles / books. All the guys… Read more »
The belief that men and women aren’t very different creatures is silly.
The reality is women are threatened by the idea of a cold analysis so easily performed on their Id’s. The feminine mystique must always be maintained and a guy must only ever “get lucky.”
Meanwhile it’s perfectly acceptable for women to buy countless books and magazines on how to better understanding men.
On top of that women practise their own form of “game” by wearing makeup, push up bras, getting fake breast implants. Tell me, why aren’t these women being told to “just be themselves” ?
Before we all have a PUA witch hunt, let’s put the subject in perspective, just for a moment. Like it or not, the matrix we’re living in is a late stage, failing capitalist society. If you’re into Ken Wilber, or Spiral Dynamics, that would be ORANGE on the spiral. (And if you have no idea what I’m talking about here, do some googling for some nifty education). And the characteristic of this stage of the spiral is that everything is all about markets and market valuation, buying and selling, supply and demand, the darwinian social order, Schumpeter’s creative destruction –… Read more »
Hi Paul You write here: ✺”Everybody, at every level of our late stage capitalist society is being taught how to sell, how to promote, how to hype, how to get someone to BUY PRODUCT. Why single out some small and really insignificant group of entrepreneurial and dweeby guys, who are basically doing nothing more than a sort of LIFE COACHING to help other dweeby guys get some game?”✺ When I read what you say here I question if you have spent a weekend or two reading the ” advice ” and conversations we can find on PUA websites. If you… Read more »
Iben, Here’s a perfect analogy: Weight-loss plans. There are a lot of sleazy. slimy operators out there looking to bilk people out of money by selling the promise of, for example, a pill that lets you eat whatever you want and not gain weight. Does this mean that nobody can lose weight, ever? Is eating right and exercising a “magic trick” that doesn’t work, just because it’s also a “weight-loss plan”? No. There are techniques that work, and lots that don’t. PUA is the same way: There are a lot of sleazy, slimy operators out there, but if you keep… Read more »
Hi Jonathan G You write: ✺”But just like diets, it takes real, long-term commitment to see real results.”✺ Then my question is : what results are you seeking? Is the “result” you work towards an ability to “bang 6 women each week”? That is the title of a PUA book. So in then years time you have banged 3000+ women. Is that the result you work towards? I do not say you have to be a virgin until you marry, but is it your dream to have causal sex with as many strangers as you possibly can? 4F find-feel-fuck-forget. Is… Read more »
So, Iben, then that book is probably not the one for you. That’s just it, different people have different goals in mind – men ARE looking for different results. Some men like the idea of banging 3000 women, my guess is that some men really do just enjoy that idea while for many others it’s more about the idea of the ‘power’ behind it. Other men aren’t looking to bang 3000 women, they want to learn how to connect with, communicate with, and build relationships with women so that they can find someone to be with for the rest of… Read more »
Hi KC crupp I have no doubt that some men want to hang 3000 women 🙂 maybe preferably virgins. You say: ✺”while for many others it’s more about the idea of the ‘power’ behind it. Other men aren’t looking to bang 3000 women, they want to learn how to connect with, communicate with, and build relationships with women so that they can find someone to be with for the rest of their lives.”✺ I do understand the idea of the ‘powwer behind it’. And I do understand that men want to connect and build relationships. Life is work and love… Read more »
Sorry about my typos.
Men wants to bang women, to hang them 🙂
Some PUAs lie. Many do not. I personally have not read the book you described above so I don’t know the content. Most people I meet already have an opinion of PUAs before they even read the first PUA webpage. If it’s negative it usually results in anything the PUA saying being interpreted as being horrible and awful. Part of this is because the text lacks tone. A good example of this is the famous “It’s not lying; it’s flirting.” A lot of people, who already don’t like the idea of PUAs start frothing scream “they’re advocating lying, those scum.”… Read more »
Oh and here’s a PUA that focuses more on developing qualities that lead to good interactions with women and solid relationships down the road: http://www.deservewhatyouwant.com/
Overall his website isn’t so great, but his mailing list is fantastic. These days he refers to himself more as a “dating coach” than a PUA.
Hi KC Krupp Thank you. But is it correct to call this for PUA, pick up artistry ? I prefer to use the term PUA only for certain schools of seduction. Men have seducted women ( and women men) for thousands of years,and given the knowledge to the young from generation to generation. PUA teachings are a mix of this old knowledge we all know a little of, and something new. But the attudes are disrespectful women, and also show the values they have about sexuality. Some pretty messed up values , and ideas about sexually. And why are MGTOW… Read more »
If you’re going to define “PUA” purely as the ‘schools of seduction’ you find unsavory, then the only thing you can find there is the unsavory. By definition you are closing out all other options, when the reality is the ‘certain schools of seduction’ are only one part of the whole PUA community.
Hi KC Krupp
Sorry, I misunderstood you.
You say this man does not call himself a PUA.
I am glad to hear that. Coaching can be a good thing.
That’s what the PUA community is: coaching. Some coach and teach unsavory techniques and ‘trick’ while others are very positive that focus on “inner game” and really resemble self development coaching with a focus around having confidence with women and developing people skills. We’re always talking on this site about how feminism isn’t a monolith, and the PUA community is the same way. “Dating Coach” or “PUA,” they’re terms used simultaneously. Tyler Durden from RSD has called his services “dating advice” for years. Neil Strauss (author of “The Game”) commonly refers to himself as a “dating coach,” “dating guru,” and… Read more »
Hi Iben –
Clearly you didn’t understand what I wrote. Your intense hatred for these PUA types (“Frankly I hope they burn in hell”) is clearly affecting your cognitive capacity to read what I wrote with any comprehension.
To answer your two questions:
1) I am very familiar with PUA sub-culture, and have spent time on their website, because I am fascinated by all sorts of sub-cultures, including ones I personally do not embrace.
2) I raised two daughters as a single father, and taught them well how to distinguish good guys from bad guys.
the pua term is overused and yes largely part on marketing hype, however there has been beneficial parts of the industry of seduction. i have to disagree with your statement of everything be lumped together including ‘date-rape instructions’ though i was told from you guys facebook page that some recent kickstarter created controversy on that, which i wasn’t aware of. all i’m saying is excluding the title ‘pua’ there have been beneficial and powerful information out there for guys, and the reason why is women hold their guards up themselves and play games just as much as guys do. the… Read more »
As a woman I find this sentence odd: “All those articles about “50 Ways To Drive Him Wild!”, all the Wonderbras and negligees, it’s all part of the training women get, part of teaching them to maximize the power they have to turn men’s brains off, as it were.” I’m wondering how many women do this in an attempt to turn men’s brains off. What good does that do us I’m wondering? If any women who are reading this can relate to it, please explain. From my own experience, and hearing what other women have to say, women seem to… Read more »
The “shut down men brain” I think is a metaphor, for to be attractive to men you are also attracted to. If the advice doesnt have anything to do with men, the advice would not be “50 ways to drive HIM Wild” but “50 Ways to have high self esteem”. The fact that HIM is part of the sentence means the advice women get have to do with men. Although the intention is not to arouse men or shut men brains off, it still how to be attractive to opposite sex. Because its natural as a human being that we… Read more »
I agree. If anything, these articles always made ME feel inadequate. It’s not about “haha, stupid man, I’m gonna get him NOW!” (who’d want to turn another human being into a drooly almost-vegetable, especially a significant other you care about?) but more about “you don’t drive him crazy. you’re still failing. see here how to not fail anymore… if you try hard enough”. I think we (women) are mostly focused on achieving that fleeting goal, of ever striving to fulfill the most recent attractiveness standards, of being what we think “all men” want, so we can finally get our proverbial… Read more »
Amen Kay. Couldn’t agree more. All those articles also made me feel more inadequate then I ever felt they were saying men where stupid. They largely focused on what I, as a woman, should be doing, to make myself more acceptable and presentable to a man. And when I was younger, boy, did I try and controt myself into all kinds of things just to get some male acceptance. And I couldn’t agree more with your point about the narrative of “conniving women’s wiles” and “score chicks”. Or how some like to call it… “pussy”. And even less flattering word… Read more »
One question: where are those men who can get 90% percent of women, anytime they want outside of action movies and ads? (You see where I’m going?) The sad truth is, we’re probaby exposed more often to fiction (internet, print media, tv, movies) than to our own real lives. We have a hard time to even tell the difference. That “foster reality” divides mercilessly between “playas” (who are, in fact the ones who have the right cell phone, the right aftershave lotion, the right clothes…) and “loosers”. The truth is, we’re all somewhere in between. Think about it for one… Read more »
Zodak, it sounds like you’ve bought the Koolaid. Sure, confident is nice. But there is someone for everyone, and waiting until you are “just right” is a guaranteed friday night date with your I-Pad. Nice guys end up…with nice girls, usually. It just takes meeting the right one, which takes getting out and having a life. If “be yourself” means (always) sitting home and playing video games, then there might be room for improvement, but if you have interests, friends, and are willing to smile at the women you see in the course of your day, then you don’t need… Read more »
“Someone for everyone?”
Think you may have drank the Kool-Aid too.
There is quite literally not, “someone for everyone.”
http://www.economist.com/node/18530371
And even if there were, who says there is only ONE someone for each person?
some people have social anxiety. Theres a reason why many guys/girls choose to stay at home at friday night and play video games/reading books instead. Theres a reason some people have difficulties in social life, either its making friends and startin a conversation. Theres a reason some people are a “loner” in high school days and not “hang out” like most of their freinds. Please dont shame us who doesnt have those social abilities like normal people. Just because we are not like you doesnt mean we dont have a life.
Hi John
You are right. Many have social anxieties or simply a personalty that is private.
However, for a man like that to seek advice from PUA gurus, is not smart.
There are other intelligent well educated persons that offers advice that is also emotionally healthy .
So why waste time and money on PUA? There are other options for men that need advice about how to approach women, about love,about sex,about relationships.
“And all of it is selling men something they already have: the power to attract (straight) women.” they don’t, we don’t. men have to learn how to be attractive. you are telling men what everyone else says “just be yourself” those men know that strategy doesn’t work. Pickup artistry tell them they have to learn to be confident, to make more money, dress better, cultivate interests, stay in shape. in other words become the man that women want. while very young girls may like “non-threatening boys” we all know adult women do not. they hate nice guys. they are disgusted… Read more »
But “women” are different and want different things, just like men. Pick up “artistry” (*snort*) is offensive to both genders for generalizing them and turning them into shallow, calculating caricatures of human beings.
Also, really? “Women hate nice guys”? This ridiculous claim has been debunked so many times and so wonderfully I’m gonna stop typing now. COPY PASTE!
http://dearcoquette.com/post/31277006552/on-nice-guy-syndrome
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VXXXX9iVPI
http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/12/problem-nice-guys/
They sure do finish last:
http://jezebel.com/5972788/no-one-is-entitled-to-sex-why-we-should-mock-the-nice-guys-of-okcupid
Hi Jar Thanks for sharing the link . I liked what I read about the concept creepy. And this also the problem with the PUA, a total disregard for women’s borders ,women’s physical or psychological space. http://jezebel.com/5903883/why-guys-really-hate-being-called-creepy the ✺”MRAs are up in arms about “creep-shaming………… The answer is that creep is the only insult that instantly centers women’s perceptions. To call a man a “pussy” is to make a comment about how his behavior appears; to call him “creepy” is to name how he makes women feel………………. At the heart of the “anti-creep shaming campaign” is a concerted effort to… Read more »
Hi Iben, “At the heart of the “anti-creep shaming campaign” is a concerted effort to discourage women from relying on their instincts to protect themselves from harm” I disagree. Creep shaming demonizes men for their sexuality. Two men doing the same thing to the same woman may elicit a different reaction from that woman based on whether she’s attracted to the man or not. A non-attractive man is a creep. An attractive man is a date. How many women actually feel “threatened” and are not simply grossed out? I think much of that I feel threatened stuff is a cop… Read more »
Bingo. John gets it.
These shaming anti-creep campaigns are actually very cruel. What they really are doing is creating a system that allows women to not have to deal with the sexual desires of men in the lower rungs of society.
The only time they feel “sexualized” or “creeped out” is when it’s done by low status men. An alpha male type guy delivering the exact same words would elicit a completely different reaction.
Define “attractive”. And more to the point, what makes a man attractive to a woman? At TIFF I saw the film Belle, a biracial young woman raised by her upper class white relatives. She had a white female cousin attracted to a young white man of a good family. He had looks. He had money. [Spoiler] He also was a racist – and a creep (made evident by his words and actions). When the actor (Tom Felton, of Harry Potter fame) came out for the meet and greet – the audience (male and female) booed and hissed for a good… Read more »
I disagree. In my experience, creep means a jerk who doesn’t understand the concept of boundaries, or that no one is owed sex. It has nothing to do with attractiveness. You can absolutely be hot and be a creep. (Again, this assumes women just care about looks, which isn’t true for many, if not most of them, at all.)
Also, obviously, women can be creeps too, and I’d also suggest it has nothing to do with being hot or not (though the “Hot Crazy Scale” from HIMYM comes to mind).
Varying mileage I suppose because I’ve seen both what you and John describe.
There’s a big difference between “Can you imagine the nerve of that sorry guy trying to talk to me?” and “This guy doesn’t take no for an answer”.
One is calling out a creep and other is text book creep shaming.
That’s actually a very good point – to be perfectly honest, the examples made it clearer for me, because I have never actually encountered the “eww, loser, get away from me, lol” types you’re both describing outside of movies and TV. (I’m also not American, by the way, which might make my experience different in another level yet.) Sorry.
Still, there are jerks/shamers/libido demonizers across the genders, but that still doesn’t validate the “niceness=single” (or “ugly=single”) premise.
@ Kay
Although your definition of creep is much closer to my definition, that’s not how I hear it normally defined. I rarely here creep defined in terms of actions. I constantly ask why is a man complimenting a woman on her appearance a creep, but a woman complimenting a baby on their cuteness (appearance) not a creep? Why is a man asking a woman what she’s reading a creep, but a woman asking a parent how old their child is not a creep?
Hi John I should not take part in a discussion about creep shaming. As a Scandinavian that is not a master in English, I can only guess what the word means and how it is used. To demonize a persons sexuality is not good,we can agree on that. We are sexual being and it is noting wrong in showing sexual interest, but …… The thing is that all cultures have unwritten rules for acceptable ways and unacceptable ways to show sexual interest. And you have to be sensitive to others. Where I live women do not use words like “creep”… Read more »
Hi Iben, Whenever I’ve discussed creep shaming, I’ve always considered it invalidating a man’s sexuality mostly because it has been defined in terms of feelings rather than actions. A woman may perceive a good looking man checking her out as flattering. I guy who’s not good looking could get the gross out reaction. Ugg, I can’t image having sex with you. I think to some extent that’s how men look at a woman’s reaction. If a woman feels creeped out it’s an implicit rejection of the guy’s sexual attractiveness. Both guys do the exact same thing. One guy gets a… Read more »
Hi John No I can not. I am “lost in translation ” 🙂 But it surprises me if men often experience impolite or rude reactions from women if men try to start an conversation. Is this the way women behave in your part of the world? To me it sounds childish ,mad more like how 12 year girls behaves when insecure. I should stay out this discussion because I have never witnessed anything near what you describe as creep shaming, It is hard to be young man looking for a girlfriend, but to be made fun of because he wants… Read more »
The thing is they DON’T do the ‘exact same thing.’ Two guys sit next to a girl reading on the train and comment on the book she’s reading. They both say the exact same line. Why does one (A) get her phone number while the other (B) is seen as a creeper? It’s because there are so man other factors that play a huge role in communication like tone, inflection, pacing, and body language. – A spends more time looking at the book, then looks at the girl only when he’s ready to question her about it while B stares… Read more »
I can’t say no women will say that guy A was a positive experience but I can tell you that anyone playing that manipulative game to get my number would not be seen as a positive experience. They would be seen as manipulative which I have a high level of unwillingness to cooperate with. You haven’t IMO described two different men, you have described one guy with the same intentions going about his behavior in different ways. I do agree that some women determine “creepy” based on how attracted they are to a man and that is a serious problem.… Read more »
Hi Veronica Well said! And this way to get a woman’s phone number IS manipulative and it says a lot about a man if he uses tricks like that to get intimate,to get a woman to bed,to get a little warmth or try to get a girlfriend. But they are not looking for a relationship, just someone to use for the night. And if the woman is willing to have sex before seven hours have passed she is given a ugly name fool’s mate.. All he has to offer is manipulations and tricks. They have many pre planned manipulative moves… Read more »
Wow, you just assumed the worst intentions out of these hypothetical guys. I never talked about their intentions and I never said they were just “looking to play her.” My example was simply to illustrate how different behavior will result in different responses from people. How do you know that both guys weren’t genuinely interested in the girl? Maybe she was reading their favorite book and that got them excited and made them want to talk and get to know her better. It doesn’t matter if B’s intentions are honest if his behavior still makes her feel “creeped out.” My… Read more »
KC, thinking of the kindest, or clearest way to say something is entirely different than your example of how to manipulate someone into feeling pressured or feeling falsely reassured about giving out their phone number.
It all comes down to what is the intention? If the intention is to be kind and give someone as much space and comfort to make their own decision as possible then no games.
The term “Fool’s Mate” isn’t a comment on the woman. It’s a comment on the guy. It’s being critical of him. A lot of people completely miss the fact that the PUA community is actually harsher on men then the women. There are more terms and discussion about deriding and bringing down other men than there are about women. Saying that a woman was a “fool’s mate” isn’t criticizing the woman, it isn’t criticizing her choices, it’s saying that the guy should not get cocky and think that he’s some gift to woman or has ‘great game’ because it happen.… Read more »
Sorry but if I understood the article correctly, it isn’t about nice guys, it’s about “self-proclaimed ‘nice guys’ who are actually total dicks”.
Again, I can’t imagine a situation where being too nice can be a disadvantage: maybe you’re not outspoken enough; maybe you’re not confident enough; maybe you’re not interesting enough; or maybe you’re actually a total dick. Niceness doesn’t enter the equation, it’s just a cop-out excuse (actually similar to the “I’m not hot enough”/”guys just want supermodels” one for females).
Sometimes, “being nice” is just another form of passive aggressiveness, like “look at what a martyr I am!” or “I’m nicer than you are, so you owe me ____.”
Here Here!
Here Here! to Kay, that is!
@ Kay
But when we talk about Schrodinger’s Rapist many women use the excuse of playing the percentages to look at all men with suspicion. If most or a large minority of women can be successfully approached in a certain way, then why shouldn’t men also be allowed to play the percentages?
Men don’t need permission, except from themselves, to play the percentages and sometimes win and sometimes fail. Any reasonable guy (human) understands that life is ultimately uncertain–and thus all about percentages–so why take it so personally? I’d say that if a man has to be “allowed,” maybe he’s not a man. Except it ought to apply equally to women. Life’s a shit a show; a raucous mess. Rules help us get along mostly peacefully–but you alone decide how closely you want to follow them, or deal with the consequences of not doing so. Maybe you’ll find that the consequences for… Read more »
@John Gottman, What exactly do you mean by (both men and women) playing percentages (and using it as an excuse – for what, rejecting guys)? If it means something like saying “ALL WOMEN ARE [x] (eg. bitches who hate niceness), SCREW THIS, I’M GOING HOME” and/or “ALL MEN ARE [x] (eg., creepy potential rapists), SCREW THIS, I’M GOING HOME”, then well, you’re “allowed” to do it I guess, I just doubt other people will like you very much, or that you’ll catch the romantic/sexual interest of whatever gender you’re trying to romance/get sexy with. If it means something else, please… Read more »
@ Kay I’ve spent 25+ years in information technology. I’ve always taught every intern I’ve known to always ask the how and why something is done the way it is. Knowing the how and why something works will give them the what to do to fix it or make it happen. I guess I compartmentalizing things into consistent principles or theories. As long as I’m consistent with a principle and can apply it to multiple situations, then I can this is true. I’ll often take a principle and apply it to multiple situations to see if it remains valid. It’s… Read more »