By Understood
As a female engineer with ADHD and learning differences, Kellie Williams is breaking ground in a male-dominated field. Learn what she’s done to thrive in spite of harassment and ill-fitting equipment made for men. And find out the tools and accommodations she uses at work for her ADHD.
To find a transcript for this episode and more resources, visit the episode page at Understood. https://www.understood.org/podcast/ho…
We love hearing from our listeners. Email us at [email protected].
Understood is a nonprofit and social impact organization dedicated to shaping a world where the 1 in 5 people who learn and think differently can thrive. Learn more about “How’d You Get THAT Job?!” and all our podcasts at u.org/podcasts. Copyright © 2021 Understood for All, Inc. All rights reserved.
Transcript provided by YouTube (unedited)
0:01
[Music]
0:05
from the understood podcast network this
0:07
is how’d you get that job a podcast that
0:10
explores the unique and often unexpected
0:12
career paths of people with learning and
0:14
thinking differences my name is eleni
0:17
matheal and i’m a user researcher here
0:18
at understood that means i spend a lot
0:20
of time thinking about how we find jobs
0:22
we love that reflect how we learn and
0:25
who we are
0:26
i’ll be your host
0:29
[Music]
0:30
so i’m very excited to introduce kelly
0:34
kelly is an engineer with adhd working
0:37
in sustainability
0:39
and she’s also one of my closest friends
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we met shortly after both of us moved to
0:43
new york city
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about four and a half years ago at this
0:46
stage and she’s one of the first people
0:49
to be really open with me about her
0:52
differences
0:53
how they impact her day-to-day
0:55
and like also her best to support and
0:58
understand her so i thought it would be
1:00
really great to have her on the show and
1:03
learn more
1:04
so
1:05
let’s start with
1:07
where you’ve landed in your career today
1:10
yeah so i’m a mechanical engineer i’ve
1:13
done a lot of different types of jobs
1:15
i’ve worked on
1:17
building design i worked to design
1:20
security equipment for the world’s
1:22
largest prison equipment company i’ve
1:24
directed an energy and sustainability
1:26
department for
1:28
texas’s largest school district
1:30
i’ve done energy consulting construction
1:33
commissioning and now i work for a new
1:35
york city utility company as a strategic
1:37
planner in the energy efficiency
1:39
department
1:40
wow that is a lot
1:43
so kelly you mentioned that you are a
1:45
sustainability engineer
1:47
what does that mean
1:48
sustainability engineering energy
1:50
engineering
1:52
this could be something from developing
1:54
clean energy technologies or
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to
1:58
improve efficiency
2:00
for existing
2:01
equipment or buildings so reducing
2:04
greenhouse gas emissions or
2:06
in my context i work in the building
2:08
spaces so i’m looking at
2:10
how are the lights the equipment that
2:13
keeps the buildings cool and dry
2:16
and all the programming that goes on
2:18
behind the scenes how do we get that to
2:20
operate in a way that reduces the energy
2:22
needed to run the building
2:24
and
2:25
that way it reduces the greenhouse gas
2:27
emissions and then on the other side
2:29
which is more upstream is looking at
2:32
like can we do solar wind other
2:34
renewables that can benefit the
2:36
environment so in terms of
2:38
sustainability as it is today it’s
2:40
really about environmental impact how do
2:42
you reduce it and there’s a lot of
2:44
different ways you can do that so like
2:46
what do you like about where you’ve
2:47
landed at the moment
2:48
i really like that i
2:51
get to choose what i can hone in on and
2:53
that it’s contributing to
2:55
a larger goal being climate mitigation
2:58
that i’m like personally very interested
2:59
in and have been interested in since i
3:01
was a kid
3:02
yeah so what makes you so passionate
3:04
about climate issues i don’t even know
3:06
where to begin
3:08
climate issues it’s an existential
3:10
threat that we have to
3:11
solve for i think about
3:15
my family my nieces you know the world
3:17
that they’re gonna inherit by us this is
3:19
such a deep question
3:21
where we are facing an existential
3:23
threat and to me it’s my personal
3:26
biggest priority it’s almost like when
3:28
someone says who are you
3:30
what am i why am i doing this and i
3:32
think climate mitigation is something
3:34
that is so important it impacts
3:35
everything it impacts the economy the
3:38
quality of our air and our water the
3:40
ecosystem it touches on so many things
3:42
it’s so important that
3:45
it’s the only thing i can really focus
3:47
on it’s the only thing that i can
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continue to chase is solving this
3:53
problem
3:54
and i just have this inherent interest
3:57
in helping it and maybe it’s partially
3:59
related to being empathetic
4:02
you know i don’t like to see communities
4:03
suffer because of climate change or
4:05
animals being displaced or like going
4:07
extinct it’s really sad you know i think
4:09
we should be good stewards of our earth
4:11
and our of our resources and in our
4:13
environment
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so i want to see that i want to be a
4:16
part of something that is contributing
4:19
to make things better
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and that’s why i’m really interested in
4:22
climate
4:24
it’s so so important and how is that
4:25
interest influenced like some of the
4:27
other earlier decisions you made in your
4:29
career i graduated college during the
4:32
recession i did not have a lot of
4:33
options so that’s how i landed with this
4:35
prison equipment company job it wasn’t
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the
4:38
most
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feel-good fuzzy job that
4:42
i imagined myself doing but it made me
4:45
realize that i had to pursue a passion
4:47
because i dreaded coming into the office
4:50
every single day and eventually i found
4:52
one that really hit the spot and that
4:54
was doing energy efficiency and energy
4:56
management and once i hit that stride my
5:00
career grew very rapidly because i was
5:02
very motivated as in my 20s as a manager
5:05
very young manager
5:06
and i was a total go-getter so much
5:09
energy and i felt like nothing could
5:11
stop me so you mentioned like it’s
5:13
really important for you to have
5:15
something that you’re really passionate
5:16
about
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i would love to know how that relates to
5:20
your adhd we’ve heard a lot of people
5:22
talk about motivation but i would like
5:25
to hear about your unique experience
5:27
with that for me if i’m not doing
5:29
something that is contributing to a
5:31
large goal or feels worthwhile like i
5:34
have purpose i just don’t see the point
5:36
in doing it at all so i know a lot of
5:39
jobs are really important but for me i
5:42
feel like i need to be needed in order
5:44
to keep going otherwise i just lose
5:46
motivation it just feels
5:48
pointless and i struggle to continue to
5:51
do that type of work totally
5:53
so once i find something that i really
5:55
like
5:56
i’ve tried to find a way that i can
5:59
hyper focus in a way that is beneficial
6:01
to me because i’ve hyper focused in ways
6:03
that are very harmful
6:05
so i have to be really disciplined and
6:07
set up structure for myself to think
6:10
what is this contributing to is this a
6:11
question that needs to be asked now is
6:14
this going to be a worthwhile
6:17
exploration
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and if it’s a yes and if it’s a yes now
6:21
like the near term then i can usually
6:23
follow that and that can be pretty
6:25
beneficial
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sometimes that looks like coming up with
6:29
really innovative ideas or very
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collaborative ideas or thinking on the
6:33
fly so with adhd for me it manifests as
6:36
racing questions
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and i
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will sometimes get caught up in the
6:41
wrong question or sometimes it’s the
6:42
right question very obscure question and
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i get to chase that
6:46
and that’s like chasing the white rabbit
6:49
and then it leads me down to a really
6:51
cool
6:52
solution sometimes
6:53
and i can also see how if you’re chasing
6:55
the wrong thing that can also be a
6:57
challenge
6:58
it’s horrible
7:00
disastrous
7:04
so
7:05
i think that that’s a really good segue
7:06
to hear about maybe some of the
7:09
challenges that you face with adhd
7:11
perhaps in the lead-up to like becoming
7:13
an engineer and then also
7:15
actually let’s start there okay so i
7:18
actually took some notes because i knew
7:19
i was gonna forget this is a very meta
7:22
thing right here um
7:23
because you put like what some of the
7:25
challenges so okay remembering things um
7:28
especially when i’m under pressure i had
7:30
test anxiety like nobody’s business i’ve
7:33
blanked out
7:34
on the simplest things even formulas
7:37
like pythagorean theorem which is very
7:39
simple for an engineer you learn that in
7:41
middle school so my challenges were
7:44
gaining enough confidence to believe
7:46
that i can have the answers when i need
7:48
them
7:49
which took a lot of exercise and
7:51
practice and like
7:52
all the cheesy affirmations so i went
7:55
through all these things to help me
7:57
through the test anxiety so once i got
7:59
through that and i was doing well and
8:01
making good grades that helped but
8:02
actually
8:03
what was challenging about this i was
8:05
undiagnosed until my sophomore year and
8:08
my boyfriend at the time who is now
8:10
actually an adhd coach oh wow i didn’t
8:13
know that he said kelly i think you
8:15
might want to get diagnosed i see that
8:16
you’re really struggling and so i got
8:18
diagnosed and i actually thought i had
8:21
so much self-doubt am i even smart
8:23
enough to pursue engineering i had so
8:24
much like imposter syndrome like who are
8:26
you there’s no you never even met an
8:28
engineer how are you going to be an
8:29
engineer you don’t even know what they
8:30
do you don’t even know what they look
8:31
like how they act nothing i had no model
8:34
for this
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so
8:35
when i got tested and they said you
8:38
actually have like an above average iq
8:40
and i was like what who me
8:41
i’m smart are you sure
8:44
i got those scores mixed up but then
8:46
they gave me some tools and medication
8:49
and that completely changed everything
8:51
it was so much easier to study i had all
8:53
the tools i needed in order to get
8:55
through my degree it took me six years i
8:58
worked full time and some of the
9:00
semesters is really challenging but i
9:02
made it and i did it and that is one of
9:05
my biggest accomplishments in life so
9:08
you mentioned
9:09
tools
9:11
do you want to talk a little bit about
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what some of those tools are and how you
9:14
came up with them or how you discovered
9:16
them yes trial and error is how i came
9:19
to learn what works for me the most
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unfortunate part of all of this is i
9:23
finally figured out what my best study
9:26
strategy was in my final semester of
9:27
college
9:29
six years later six years later
9:33
but the good thing is i was able to use
9:35
that for the rest of my career if i
9:37
didn’t have to study so hard and put all
9:39
that time into figuring out how i
9:41
learned best i wouldn’t have been able
9:43
to succeed as much in my career yeah
9:45
because i did all the work ahead of time
9:47
so now if i have a certification i’m
9:49
studying for or if i’m learning about
9:51
some like new technology it is so much
9:54
easier for me to
9:55
internalize it i’ve learned that i need
9:58
to externalize my memory i need to
10:00
externalize my time constraints and i
10:03
use a little cube with the minutes like
10:05
5 minutes 10 minutes i use tools to keep
10:08
me on track
10:09
the one thing that helped me through all
10:10
this is giving myself permission to use
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the tools and not feeling shame about it
10:15
and saying you know what
10:17
this is what i have to do to get things
10:19
done and that’s okay and it’s gonna be
10:21
okay and yeah it looks different because
10:23
i’m at work i’ve got all these like
10:25
noise cancelling headphones i have the
10:27
cube i’m in the corner because i cannot
10:29
be distracted i tell people if you see
10:30
me at the office with my headphones on
10:33
send me an invite do not disturb me
10:35
because i will go off the rails
10:37
and you’re really going to screw up my
10:39
day
10:39
so
10:40
it’s socializing and normalizing what i
10:44
need to do to get things done and
10:46
because i’ve been successful i am very
10:49
confident and standing out in that way
10:51
and being very vocal in what my needs
10:54
are so while you’re talking about tools
10:55
you mentioned this cube what is it
10:59
i have this yellow cube it has the
11:02
numbers 5 10 25 and 45 in a blank on
11:05
each side when i flip it for that number
11:08
of five it’ll give me a five minute
11:10
countdown it’ll beep and it’ll blink so
11:12
if i have my noise canceling headphones
11:14
on i can see it blinking i just like put
11:15
it inside and it has a countdown timer
11:17
oh wow that’s so interesting i use the
11:19
cube for task management so i use this
11:22
to set goals and to have a reminder now
11:25
fortunately i can usually remember what
11:29
i was working on what i needed to do
11:31
before the timer goes off i don’t know
11:33
how long things actually take me i
11:34
thought dishes took me one hour
11:37
i timed myself it takes me less than
11:39
five minutes to put up dishes in less
11:41
than five minutes to put them in the
11:42
washer i use this thing not just for
11:45
work but i use it for life tasks because
11:48
now that i have a data point to say
11:50
no
11:51
dishes do not take you an hour to do
11:55
you have a machine to do this for you
11:58
it feels like an hour because i hate
12:01
dishes
12:02
but i just say look beat the clock
12:04
gamify i use the cube to gamify tasks oh
12:07
i’m going to win i can beat the clock
12:09
and so i use it for getting ready doing
12:12
my chores sending emails i’m only going
12:14
to let myself do research for 45 minutes
12:16
undisturbed and then i’m gonna take a
12:18
five minute break or ten minute break
12:20
so
12:20
i use it to
12:22
task manage time manage
12:25
i have been witness to this i don’t know
12:27
if she had the cue why we lived together
12:28
because leaving the house where we would
12:31
go out
12:32
i’m like 10 minutes away from getting
12:34
ready and then it’ll be like 45 minutes
12:36
16 minutes later i’m like kelly where
12:38
are you at with getting ready like
12:41
what’s happening in there
12:43
it’s bad sometimes i don’t have the cube
12:46
back then
12:49
how do you think mood relates to adhd
12:52
and how that varies day to day oh my
12:54
gosh
12:55
as a new engineer when i graduated
12:57
college i looked at everything as like
12:59
so technical mechanical and i really
13:01
ignored feelings ignored emotions
13:04
and i was doing it in disservice to
13:07
myself because i needed to acknowledge
13:09
i’m feeling really irritable or i’m
13:12
feeling really sad i’m really really
13:13
happy
13:14
and if i can work my tasks around that
13:17
mood
13:18
it’s much better so if i’m feeling
13:20
really introverted i might just do the
13:22
research task that day bump it up a week
13:24
early and if i’m feeling really social
13:26
i’m going to do all my collaborative
13:28
activities then
13:29
so i just try to
13:31
work with these moods work with these
13:35
needs instead of resist
13:38
yeah it’s all about having
13:39
self-awareness yeah before you started
13:43
work did you have any idea like how any
13:45
of your differences would impact you at
13:47
work and were there any surprises or
13:50
things that showed up that you didn’t
13:51
expect
13:52
so some surprises were i had one of my
13:55
doctors tell me as a highly sensitive
13:56
person and i just took that as
13:59
emotional
14:00
and some sensory things
14:02
but
14:03
the way it showed up
14:05
in different jobs
14:06
as it still shows up is surprising to me
14:08
still like construction noise and dust
14:12
and just like the sound and texture of
14:14
grit underneath my shoes really bothers
14:17
me
14:18
in new york city i was commissioning
14:19
construction projects meaning that i’m
14:22
checking to make sure that the work they
14:24
said they were going to do was actually
14:25
done
14:26
and i’m
14:28
walking
14:29
new builds with like where the steel
14:31
frames are up and they’re just put in
14:33
the concrete floors or i’m doing a
14:35
retrofit where they’ve put in an air
14:38
conditioning unit at grand central
14:40
station or a pen station
14:42
and i have to
14:43
inspect the whole thing and it is
14:46
damp dark
14:48
gritty dirty loud there’s like
14:50
jackhammering next door because they’re
14:51
doing all this work there’s dust
14:53
everywhere my senses are completely
14:57
flooded overwhelmed my hands are dry
15:00
because you know you have to pick up
15:01
tools to open panels and like do
15:03
electrical work with multiple layers of
15:06
really itchy
15:08
material heavy boots
15:10
two layers of gloves for electrical work
15:12
plus tools
15:14
in potentially suits that don’t fit
15:16
right
15:17
yes i’ve had to do electrical work in a
15:20
suit that was three sizes too big for me
15:23
a men’s suit because they only had
15:26
electrical equipment for men it drives
15:29
me crazy and i learned that i can’t
15:32
force myself to be happy in these roles
15:34
and i have to honor my sensitivities and
15:37
just work with it instead so now i have
15:39
a better job now i’m working from home
15:41
and i love that because i get to shield
15:43
myself but what i’ve learned is that i
15:45
need to avoid certain types of work
15:49
it sounds good on paper but in practice
15:50
it is just terrible for me yeah
15:53
so when you were pivoting between jobs
15:55
were you doing so with the awareness or
15:58
with the knowledge that oh i need to
16:00
move away from like this particular
16:02
environment or i need to do something
16:04
differently
16:05
yes there’s a lot of intentionality
16:06
behind the work i was seeking right now
16:09
i’m in the strategic planning role
16:11
i wanted to do more project starting i’m
16:14
great with idea generation i’m great
16:16
with getting people
16:18
jazzed up and on board for a new
16:19
initiative i am not great at finishing a
16:21
project or following the instructions
16:25
it is not for me and i learned that in
16:28
my previous roles in new york city being
16:30
an energy consultant or construction
16:32
commissioner i had to do
16:35
copy paste
16:36
so repetitive different building but
16:38
same procedure
16:40
not for me i cannot do that so
16:44
i learned oh what’s the pattern here
16:46
between all these different roles i’ve
16:47
had the pattern was i love starting
16:49
things i like new initiatives i’m gonna
16:52
do that and i’m doing it now and i love
16:54
it i’m so pleased for you that you were
16:56
able to like make that connection
16:58
so earlier in the conversation you
17:00
mentioned you really enjoyed managing
17:02
people and you really enjoy
17:04
collaborating
17:05
you know knowing you as well
17:08
it kind of links to having like a really
17:11
strong sense of empathy yes being able
17:14
to read people and so
17:16
you’re really like attuned to what other
17:18
people are doing in the room yeah when
17:20
you said that it’s got goose bumps on my
17:22
legs because i don’t know i
17:24
am so sensitive to the minor differences
17:28
in people’s behavior voice inflection
17:30
micro expressions
17:32
even working in a virtual environment
17:34
has been really interesting because you
17:36
remove so many layers of that
17:37
communication and my ability to read
17:39
which makes it feel more anxiety
17:41
producing
17:42
but
17:43
you just learn to
17:45
oh it’ll find its way
17:46
you will find a way you’ll learn how
17:48
long the silences are and what to pick
17:50
up on in different people but i think
17:53
because of the sensitivities i am very
17:55
empathetic and i can try to view
17:58
a problem from the lens of whomever that
18:01
stakeholder is
18:02
and with that i can already do a lot of
18:05
information gathering and hypothesize
18:08
and then present it and they’re like oh
18:09
my gosh
18:11
you’re so good or no one’s ever asked
18:12
this to me before i’m so glad you did
18:14
though so these feel like superpowers in
18:16
a lot of ways oh totally
18:18
also it makes me think about
18:21
this trope around engineers not being
18:24
emotional in a way you’re kind of
18:26
debunking that or
18:28
recreating what it means to be an
18:30
engineer i love this question
18:33
so mechanical engineering has some of
18:34
the
18:35
least representation from females
18:38
in that entire engineering industry yeah
18:41
and engineering on its own is not well
18:43
represented oh my god let alone
18:45
engineering on its own is so far behind
18:46
with gender parity
18:48
well
18:49
mechanical is even further behind
18:51
senior year of my engineering degree i
18:53
was the only female still in some of
18:55
those classes actually the number of
18:57
women actually decreased as i continued
18:59
wow a lot of women drop out
19:01
being an online female engineer yeah i
19:04
had a lot of harassment just straight up
19:06
i had so much anger in that i felt
19:08
discounted for being a young female
19:11
engineer i felt discounted because
19:13
i have learning differences on top of
19:15
that having people say who do you know
19:18
who hired you
19:20
there’s rumors about how i got this job
19:22
blah blah blah i
19:24
thought i had to
19:26
adapt i thought i had to assimilate in
19:28
order to be successful at some point i
19:31
was said screw that i’m not doing this
19:33
i’m going to be my authentic self it
19:35
actually took therapy and a lot of
19:37
reading about how to get comfortable
19:40
with being uncomfortable
19:42
and a lot of that i was able to connect
19:44
with my experience with adhd
19:46
yeah so it was really cool because i
19:48
decided i’m not going to
19:50
act like a man act like this man
19:53
engineer who’s 30 years my senior
19:56
there’s so little representation of
19:58
women engineers in my field that i had
20:01
to pave the way because i was the only
20:03
one and i thought i get to make this
20:05
change i get to decide what this role
20:07
looks like because i am the first yeah
20:09
it’s interesting you bring up the idea
20:11
of a simulation how it links to adhd one
20:14
thing that i’ve been hearing in my
20:16
research is that there’s almost
20:18
i’m gonna say a spectrum but it’s like
20:21
there are people that think of their
20:23
difference as something they need to
20:24
assimilate in other words something that
20:26
they need to hide
20:27
versus other people that say no i’m
20:29
gonna own this and feel real pride
20:31
around it and there’s like a real
20:32
dichotomy there
20:34
and
20:35
i think making that shift away from a
20:37
simulation to pride is really what
20:40
allows people to let go of shame or
20:43
really see the superpowers that you
20:45
talked about
20:46
i am me
20:48
and i like it
20:52
so if you were speaking to someone who
20:54
wanted to become an engineer
20:56
and perhaps they have adhd or they’re a
20:58
woman what advice would you give to them
21:01
i would recommend that they seek out
21:03
something like engineer for a day i know
21:05
there’s these groups especially with
21:07
communities of color women
21:09
groups for young female engineers
21:11
there’s all these
21:12
segments of making engineering
21:14
accessible to young kids
21:16
from all different backgrounds
21:18
if they could find a group that can
21:21
provide some level of exposure
21:23
do the work
21:25
test it out you got to try on these jobs
21:27
go do a site visit try to learn if you
21:29
can from somebody and just spend a day
21:31
on a construction site because as a
21:33
mechanical engineer there’s so many
21:34
different avenues that you can go into i
21:36
could do energy i could do design
21:38
airplanes like it’s all over the place
21:41
and it’s not always on a construction
21:43
site there’s a lot of times when you’re
21:44
just at the desk reviewing drawings
21:47
put on their glasses and like a literal
21:49
magnifying glass
21:51
and just marking up drawings doing all
21:52
these checks and balances it can look
21:55
like a lot of different things so
21:56
figuring out how much your time is going
21:58
to be in the field versus in the office
22:01
i’m someone that likes to do both
22:04
so i
22:05
initially set out jobs that would give
22:07
me that flexibility to go explore in the
22:09
field and also be in my desk like doing
22:11
research
22:12
having enough conversations with people
22:14
to find out what is the good blend for
22:17
you and also look into your own personal
22:20
life to see
22:21
are you a homebody do you like to
22:22
explore things and see if you can
22:24
replicate that into your work i love
22:26
that such good advice
22:28
thanks so much kelly for being here and
22:30
for sharing your story
22:32
thank you so much for having me i’m very
22:34
excited to to share this
22:38
[Music]
22:45
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[Music]
24:19
you
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