It is a woman’s responsibility to dress herself in the morning. It is your responsibility to look at her like a human being regardless of what she is wearing.
Originally appeared at NatePyle.com
–
Someday I am going to have to have the conversation with my son. No, not the conversation all parents dread giving and all kids are mortified having. I enjoy making people uncomfortable so that conversation should be fun.
No, I’m talking about another conversation. The one that happens after I catch his eye doing what male eyes do well – following an object of lust. We will probably be out at the mall, because that’s what dads do with their sons, and I’ll catch the look. Maybe we’ll go to the beach and see it. Doesn’t matter where it is, there will come a time when I will see it. And then it will be time for this conversation.
♦◊♦
Hey, come here. Let me talk to you. I saw you look at her. I’m not judging you or shaming you. I know why you did. I get it. But we have to talk about it because how you look at a woman matters.
A lot of people will try and tell you that a woman should watch how she dresses so she doesn’t tempt you to look at her wrongly. Here is what I will tell you. It is a woman’s responsibility to dress herself in the morning. It is your responsibility to look at her like a human being regardless of what she is wearing. You will feel the temptation to blame her for your wandering eyes because of what she is wearing – or not wearing. But don’t.Don’t play the victim. You are not a helpless victim when it comes to your eyes. You have full control over them. Exercise that control. Train them to look her in the eyes. Discipline yourself to see her, not her clothes or her body. The moment you play the victim you fall into the lie that you are simply embodied reaction to external stimuli unable to determine right from wrong, human from flesh.
Look right at me. That is a ridiculous lie.
You are more than that. And the woman you are looking at is more than her clothes. She is more than her body. There is a lot of talk about how men objectify women, and largely, it is true. Humans objectify the things they love in effort to control them. If you truly love a person, do not reduce them to an object. The moment you objectify another human—woman or man, you give up your humanity.
There are two views regarding a woman’s dress code that you will be pressured to buy into. One view will say that women need to dress to get the attention of men. The other view will say women need to dress to protect men from themselves. Son, you are better than both of these. A woman, or any human being, should not have to dress to get your attention. You should give them the full attention they deserve simply because they are a fellow human being. On the other side, a woman should not have to feel like she needs to protect you from you. You need to be in control of you.
Unfortunately, much of how the sexes interact with each is rooted in fear. Fear of rejection, fear of abuse, fear of being out of control. In some ways, the church has added to this. We fear each other because we have been taught the other is dangerous. We’ve been a taught a woman’s body will cause men to sin. We’re told that if a woman shows too much of her body men will do stupid things. Let’s be clear: a woman’s body is not dangerous to you. Her body will not cause you harm. It will not make you do stupid things. If you do stupid things it is because you chose to do stupid things. So don’t contribute to the fear that exists between men and women.
A woman’s body is beautiful and wonderful and mysterious. Respect it by respecting her as an individual with hopes and dreams and experiences and emotions and longings. Let her be confident. Encourage her confidence. But don’t do all this because she is weaker. That’s the biggest bunch of crap out there. Women are not weaker than men. They are not the weaker sex. They are the other sex.
I’m not telling you to not look at women. Just the opposite. I’m telling you to see women. Really see them. Not just with your eyes, but with your heart. Don’t look to see something that tickles your senses, but see a human being.
My hope is that changing how you see women will change how you are around them. Don’t just be around women. Be with women.
Because in the end, they want to be with you. Without fear of being judged, or shamed, or condemned, or objectified, or being treated as other. And that’s not just what women want. That’s what people want.
Ultimately, it’s what you want.
This post and photo originally appeared at NatePyle.com
My opinion is that you should be honest in your appreciation of a person, including how they look, and not to pretend otherwise. But this should be in the context of the idea ‘live and let live’. In the case where someone appears to be uncomfortable as a result of your attention, you will let it go if you’re being honest with yourself. Yes, instill the idea of respect in your son—but I fail to see how creating a sense of guilt for the feelings he has will help him form better relationships with women.
Don’t you think it’s kinda strange, this much talk about respect, from someone who opens the article with the verdict “I enjoy making people uncomfortable”…?
As soon as women’s “comfort” becomes men’s responsibility, we slip back into the mode of women as helpless and passive victims of male oppression–a nonsensical and pointless caricature of a useful gender discussion.
I work in a busy retail precinct which has two large senior secondary schools on it’s fringe. Much of the passing foot traffic is 16-18 year old students. Whilst the boys mostly dress relatively plainly the girls attire has been getting briefer every year. Inches of bare backside, acres of breast tissue, transparent tights, are a minute by minute event. Adult female shoppers frequently dress the same. If I were working in an environment with women dressing in these ways I would be very likely to make formal complaints. It isn’t necessary. I perceive it to be a sexual aggression… Read more »
I was working a checkout when this very very sexy I sure hope she was 18 old women walks into my line with her shirt all the way unbuttoned and pulled back so her bra was really the only thing covering her up. Her bra also did not fit right for when she turned you could see nipple. This made me uncomfortable and even a little scared. I made sure I looked at anything other then her. I honestly felt my job was at stake. I feared what other people were thinking about me and I was right to fear… Read more »
“This made me uncomfortable and even a little scared. I made sure I looked at anything other then her. I honestly felt my job was at stake. I feared what other people were thinking about me and I was right to fear as this women had caught the attention of my boss who was in turn watching me. ” Trust your instincts. I was at a party and this fairly attractive women was hitting on every guy there. You could tell she wasn’t hurting for dates. Something told me this isn’t right so I turned her down. A friend’s buddy… Read more »
I can only guess that, if some day all the women have exactly the same sexual liberty that men have, what will happens…:
(1)- If a man look in a indecent way to a woman and in response she go on him, kissing and grabing him;
(2)-All the women started to make men uncomfortable by lookind and saying sexual agressive words to them.
It is possible to look at a beautiful woman, see her as a fellow human being and yet still appreciate her spectacularly good looks. It is possible to do both. One does not need to feel ashamed for the simple act of appreciating a woman’s good looks. We are sexual beings, after all, and it is not healthy to deny these feelings, pretend we don’t have them and stuff them away, in that hidden place where I’ve stuffed many of my other feelings. Plenty of women look at men in a sexual way, after all. The difference is that men… Read more »
I have a daughter. What about the conversation with them? What do those of us blessed with little girls say to them? How about, guys are going to look. Some guys will stare. Some guys will ogle and creep you out. Unless the attention is invading your space, unless he is touching you or otherwise threatening harm brush it off and keep it moving.
I think that’s a super interesting question. I don’t know what I would tell a young woman and I’m terrified by the fact that I have no answer. “Don’t say anything, because when I’ve said something I’ve been spat on or called a slut or a c**t or a bitch.” That seems wrong. “It’s normal, guys are going to look. You’re going to be uncomfortable. You may even feel scared. Sorry.” WTF? I think there has to be something along the lines of, “Nobody gets to define you – not by their gaze, their stare or the things they say… Read more »
Tell her that when she notices him looking and gets creeped out, that she is doing the same thing to him that she thinks he is doing to her. She is objectifying him. She has turned him into a monster, someone to fear and be intimidated by, just as he may have turned her into an object of his lust. “I will ALWAYS stand up for your right to be safe, to feel safe, and to be who you are. Nobody has the right to hurt you, touch you or make you uncomfortable no matter what you’re wearing.” We would… Read more »
Best comment for a long time!
@ Hugh Smith
And I’d kind of like to hear the conversation someone would have with their daughter on how she turns down a guy she’s not interested in in a respectful and compassionate manner.
You’ll have to include what she should do if the guy persists after she’s said no. I would love to be able to respectfully make my ‘no’ clear, without having to get harsh because the guy won’t listen.
@ Donna If I had a daughter, it would have to be her mother because I definitely can’t read a woman. I had a woman throwing herself at me and didn’t realize that she was until I overheard a conversation she had with her friend where she wondered “what’s wrong with that guy?” There are ways to do it though. Some more unexpected than others. There was a woman I worked with. We would flirt. I got the impression that she liked me. I gave her rides home. She told other coworkers that she liked me. Unfortunately, our definitions of… Read more »
John, there’s a world of difference between not wanting to be rejected and not wanting to take no for an answer. When a guy doesn’t want to take no for an answer it means he’s ALREADY been rejected, and he’s forcing the matter by trying again – in other words, not respecting the woman’s response. He’s setting himself up for more rejection and, quite often, an excuse to be resentful. Guys who won’t take no for an answer are the scariest, most dangerous kind. Fear of rejection sucks. Fear of violence is much, much worse.
Except that every romantic comedy ever written is about a guy who refused to take no for an answer. We’re told on one hand that we should just give up the first time a woman says no to a date, and on the other that women find it attractive when men are persistent in their persuite of love. It’s confusing enough for a good, decent man. Note: That’s not to say rape, stalking, or staring creepily is acceptable. It never is. This is in relation to every-day guys simply trying to figure out what the heck it is that women… Read more »
@ Cindebee I don’t disagree. There is a difference between being rejected and accepting that rejection. I won’t argue that in an established relationship it may be more an issue of control than the loss of feeling valued. I wouldn’t discount that prior to a relationship starting, part of a refusal to recognize or accept a rejection is a refusal to recognize that one isn’t “worthy” for lack of a better word of the person desired. Should we teach our children how to handle rejection and failure in general? I think so. I also wonder if this might be the… Read more »
This is a great question. I have sons and daughters (and a sister) and I am not sure what I will tell my daughters. I am not sure how to reconcile my own feelings for women (The desire to look) and still help my daughters to be strong, sexually liberated and to remain safe (but still able to take some risks).
I would love to read an article from a mother or father about having ‘the talk’ with their daughters about dealing with looks from men, but presented in a way that doesn’t assume that all men are sleazebags.
As we say about 100 times in this comments section, look – but don’t make women uncomfortable.
It’s really easy. THink anything you want, just don’t make it anyone else’s problem.
I’ll do the same when I look at men.
@ Joanna
I think it might be easier to say you can look until or unless someone becomes uncomfortable. I think some of the resistance is that some seem to resent the fact that they have to predict what will make another uncomfortable.
The problem with that theory is that it forces people to make another uncomfortable before stopping. Therefore the damage is done. It’s like saying, “Hit until someone says ‘Stop'”
What we want is to prevent the person being looked at from becoming uncomfortable in the first place.
“As we say about 100 times in this comments section, look – but don’t make women uncomfortable. It’s really easy. THink anything you want, just don’t make it anyone else’s problem. I’ll do the same when I look at men.” Well, that’s all well and good until you drag ideologically-loaded terms like “objectification” into the conversation, not to mention, this article really does dictate to men what they should think about women under all circumstance. Talk about “objectification” drags the conversation into the category of thoughtcrime. I’ll put it this way – I’ll “objectify” whoever and whatever the hell I… Read more »
> As we say about 100 times in this comments section, look – but don’t make women uncomfortable. > I’ll do the same when I look at men. Thank you for saying that and thank you for being honest and admitting that you look at men. That’s both validating and liberating. I agree completely and I would never look at a woman if I knew it made her uncomfortable. I do care about women’s feelings. Making a woman feel uncomfortable doesn’t feel right, and it makes me feel uncomfortable myself. Their are other circumstances which apply also, such as age,… Read more »
@ Giggs “It is possible to look at a beautiful woman, see her as a fellow human being and yet still appreciate her spectacularly good looks.” And I think most if not all people do, but we do so on a subconscious level. Do you generally treat people with respect? Do you generally have compassion? Do you generally have empathy for those who suffer? I think most people do. The problem is that some insist that we are conscious of this in particular circumstances. If I hear someone say you can appreciate a bone crunching tackle, but always be aware… Read more »
But thank goodness Aaron & Jamal scoped the hell out of the woman in the back seat…
https://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/boys-save-kidnap-victim-in-dramatic-rescue/
Again, nobody says it’s wrong to look at a person who’s hot.
I cannot figure out why people are so confused about this.
JUST DON’T MAKE THEM UNCOMFORTABLE or make it their problem in any other way.
“JUST DON’T MAKE THEM UNCOMFORTABLE ”
If only what makes one “UNCOMFORTABLE” was something precisely defined and foreseeable, not highly personal and subjective (to the person and the context)…
If I (politely) look at a woman, she might be pleased by my appreciation… or, she might freak out because she was abused and any attention triggers her buttons… and everything in between.
How could I know?
You can’t ever know. And you NOT looking could make her uncomfortable. Of course there are thing…body language etc that you can pay attention to. But the thing that is ignored, is that this politically correct, regimented system make men uncomfortable. Where is the empathy from women over the enormous discomfort, difficult and fuckupedness that this situation causes. It is hugely fucking difficult because as Valter points out the same exact behaviour can result in different outcomes. And it is obviously causing problems for men since MEN ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT IT. Why aren’t you listening. Where is your empathy!?! Its… Read more »
Fine, be polite. That means probably about a 2 second look.
If she seems upset, move far away from her.
That’s polite.
If someone freaks out after you look for 2 seconds (while not standing too close or touching, obviously) then yes, you’ve done all you can do.
Is he obliged to remove himself entirely and depart from the location because of the person’s reaction?
@Joanna S.: “Fine, be polite. That means probably about a 2 second look. If she seems upset, move far away from her.” That’s what I (already) do – of course. But that’s probably not enough for some women, who feel uncomfortable just because they have issues with (male) desire, lust or attention to their bodies. And I’m sorry that they do, but I believe it’s not my burden to go beyond politeness and adapt to their issues – although I may do so, if I feel like it, out of compassion. But compassion is a choice, not something that can… Read more »
“Men’s eyes were made to look and let them gaze.”
-Shakespeare
“Is it not strange that sheep’s guts could hail souls out of men’s bodies?”
– Also Shakespeare
Hi, Nice article. I appreciate that men take their time to have healthy and meaningful conversations with boys and young men. I appreciate both men and women who try to help others to be the best they can be (best=completely subjective term). As humans (with all goodness, faults and failures), perspectives from all sides can be taken into account and, as we age, we use these perspectives to make the decisions on how we want to be as a child, adolescent or as an adult. Indeed I still modify my behavior so that I can try to be the person… Read more »
Objectification is the first step in dehumanization. We hear this constantly and barely understand why it is being discussed or why its important. Through out own life, I’ve understood early on that my gender was a burden. It was a burden precisely because I would have to endure physical and sexual abuse by males who could not control themselves. They could not control themselves for example starting in kindergarten, pushing me off the top of a slide, throwing a brick at my head through a play house window. They could not control themselves cheating at playing monopoly, or lying to… Read more »
It seems like one of the most common recurring refrains in the conversation is “it is absurd to think that no man should ever look at a woman for fear of inconveniencing her for a moment.” What’s really absurd is that that NO ONE has EVER suggested that in this thread. No one has ever said or infered that men aren’t allowed to look at women. No one ever said that a single momentary glance from a man is a HUGE inconvenience for a woman. No one has said ANYTHING even remotely like that. What people have said is –… Read more »
Tom, I agree with you; whether or not a man objectifies a woman he looks at is well within his control. There is just no excuse for claiming that men cannot control themselves and that luring at women is somehow “involuntary.” But I also think you are ignoring the problems inherent in the “don’t be a creep” standard. There is an incredibly informative thread on Reddit which is just a collection of men telling stories about all of the times women (mothers) have accused them of being pedophiles without any justification. A very common story is something like “I saw… Read more »
I think you’re talking about two important, though separate issues. There’s the “people should exercise self control and respect when looking at other people because, if they don’t, they come across as creeps” issue and then there’s the “women falsely accusing men of harassing them” issue. Just because both issues have a “creep factor”, it doesn’t mean they’re inexorably intertwined. Just because there have been women in the past who’ve allegedly accused men of bad behavior without merit, that has NOTHING TO DO with an article like this that says “don’t treat people like objects and use respect and common… Read more »
Tom, You are putting words in my mouth. At no point did I say anything even remotely like: “well, those ladies were PROBABLY going to accuse me of SOMETHING, so why should I bother even TRYING to act respectfully?” Indeed, if you go back and re-read what I wrote, you can see that I was very clear that men can and should control their own gaze. I agree with a lot of what you said, and I just wish you’d take the time to realize that. I think it’s very easy for you to claim that these are separate issues… Read more »
Did you read this part of the article Tom?
“You are not a helpless victim when it comes to your eyes. You have full control over them. Exercise that control. Train them to look her in the eyes. Discipline yourself to see her, not her clothes or her body.”
What do you think of those instructions?
How does the advice to “look her in the eyes” square with the equally-emphatic dictum (expressed on this very site) to NOT look her in the eyes, because she’ll be afraid that you’ll take eye contact as an invitation to unwanted pursuit?
I think it’s pretty clear those instructions are a deeply religious and respectful dude saying that a person shouldn’t linger and leer at another person’s body or clothes. If you actually read the article and take those instructions in context, there’s no suggestion that the guy is saying “NEVER, EVER look at a person’s body.”
The word “train” is a very precise word Tom. No one says they train to be respectful, regardless of the actual mechanics. There is also more context on his home page – where modesty is getting a lot of mention and attention. The religious part is right out there, he is a pastor after all. I agree that it does not imply “Never Ever” – everyone is a sinner, after all – but as long as you train hard and improve, that’s what counts.
I’m saying it. Don’t look. At all. It’s not as hard as you think. You will feel liberated. It’s called having higher standards than everyone else. And in the reverse don’t care who’s looking. Just watch out for threats and negate them preemptively in an intelligent way. I’d say man up, but that’s out of favor. So person up and enjoy the benefits of a superior life.
I’m beginning to think that there are a lot of weak feminists on this site. Your compromises will only lead to more problems.
Joanna: Valter said he doesn’t care if women are uncomfortable. That’s all anyone needs to hear. You know what? After Valter has said, the following, In the same way, if a woman pass me by and I like what I see, I look at her. Mind you, I do not ogle; I try to – somehow – restrain myself, to be respectful. But… nice rack, cute bottom, great legs? Sure, I look at those and I enjoy. I’m not convinced that he does not care. If he is making it a point not to stare and ogle and maintain respect… Read more »
Thank you Danny for noticing it. 🙂
Alas, when someone is overcome by emotional re-action, s/he sees only what s/he wants to see.
I applaud Nate Pyle & men (father’s) like him. Boys look to their father & learn how to treat women & girls look to their father & learn how to be treated as women. Men you are very important to our society & children are watching you. It is also obvious by the comments that some men get it & others do not. A big Thank You to Mark Greene & Tom B. To others, keep in mind “Your beliefs do not make you a better person but your behavior does”. It’s all about respect. A simple concept really 🙂
“Boys look to their father & learn how to treat women & girls look to their father & learn how to be treated as women.”
That’s a very typical meme Cynbad, and is at the root of some of the objections you may see. We’ve taken on a gatekeeper / which sometimes masquerades as passive, while boys are given “do’s and don’ts”.
The comment maelstrom on the author’s original website is intriguing.
http://natepyle.com/seeing-a-woman/
Oh, sure, there is the mirror of this dispute about staring and “objectification” and whose problem it is. But then there are comments about Christian “modesty” and denunciations from retrogrades. These new breed “enlightened” pastors attract a heterodox rabble.
I did pop over to Nate’s site to view some of the commentary and found this link among the many comments: the couple of comments regarding the link below are similarly contentious. I believe I am detecting a pattern!
http://givenbreath.com/2013/09/03/fyi-if-youre-a-teenage-girl/
The above is sort of the reverse angle, with more specificity to the electronic medium of exchange.
I guess I am kind of old school but my family covers this much more simply- “its not polite to stare.” Its a simple phrase that easily communicates the idea and acknowledges the fact that receiving an inordinate amount of attention from someone can be uncomfortable. Other benefits: 1. Works for boys and girls, men and women (they both need to learn this lesson) 2. Avoids politically loaded rhetoric that clouds the message and therefore renders the communication ineffective. 3. Doesn’t present women as some sort of victim superclass while ignoring the rest of the world. It’s a simple statement… Read more »
Well, It’s a good thing this bandwagon left town before I got here. I’m actually kinda glad I missed all the fireworks. As usual, the average man gets a wagon load of manure dumped on him and the few who dare to speak against the dominant conversation get the piss knocked out of them by the condemnatory crowd. Ah well. I for my part, will sit back and enjoy whatever views make themselves available to me and if other people can’t handle it, they can go and reverse cowgirl themselves. Not my problem. But it is entertaining always to hear… Read more »
Nate- Great idea to have such a conversation. It made me think of how I will do it. And I agree wholeheartedly with your final line, so I would lead with that. I would stress that we are having this conversation to honor HIM, not why he should do it for other people. I want him to be the best person he can be. I am old enough to know that very little of even the best humans’ lives is spent doing things for other people. Even when people do act for that reason, such as charity work, they are… Read more »
@Sisyphus: “moderation is the way to go”
That’s really the best attitude in a nutshell. 🙂
Great great great! Your a man and your telling men to take responsibility for themselves. We should never stop striving to be better humans. It’s a joint effort though, as I like to tell everyone out there. Yes, men should control themselves but sometimes they don’t. (This doesn’t just apply to men but also women who can’t control themselves) The world is working to change that but until then, I take precautions as a women. I dress fairly modestly, for the most part on a dark night I have someone with me that I trust, if I sell something on… Read more »
If your son turns out to be homosexual, have you prepared a similar lecture for him about the morality of looking at other males and how the male body is “beautiful and wonderful and mysterious”?
@Valter: You seem to take some issue with Nate’s words here and I can understand that (but at least you took the time to appreciate his effort). But please try to hear me out. I’m really fed up with this meme that I call “A man should NEVER make a woman suffer (including making her uncomfortable or uneasy)”. It’s unrealistic, unfair and sexist: because it puts all the pressure and burden on one gender alone. Okay while that meme as you call it does exist in some forms I don’t think that is what Nate is pushing here. When people… Read more »
Danny, I really appreciate your thoughtful reply – even when I disagree with it. 🙂 That’s the kind of attitude I can relate to – not the hysterical, emotional shriekings I read elsewhere (what I call the “NEVER EVER…!”). That’s the calm, rational understanding that can lead to real cooperation between genders, IMO. > “I don’t think that is what Nate is pushing here.” Probably. I basically appreciated Nate’s article. Better too much education than none. But since I was (already) fed up with that “meme” (as I call it), and the article seemed having it as an underlying attitude,… Read more »
Man, you use the word “suffering” frivolously. Yes, male suffering is JUST AS IMPORTANT as women’s suffering. No one has suggested otherwise. You seem very concerned that people don’t acknowledge that men’s suffering is relevant. It totally is. My issue is that I don’t see, in ANY WAY, how telling a man “Hey, don’t cross the line between acknowledging beauty and drooling over it like a dog with a bone” makes the man suffer. I’m a man and I can tell you – it doesn’t. I’ll admit – I have no idea what you’re talking about when you say “no… Read more »
No one. NOT ONE PERSON has suggested that you can’t glance at a woman. Or jerk off to an image of her in your head. What this essay addresses, and rather beautifully I think, is that no matter what someone looks like, we are not allowed to expect things of them, assume things about them. That NONE of us are just what is visible to the naked eye (even the naked eye looking at a half naked body.) And that we really don’t get to control other people. I’m sorry, I do not believe that it is that hard to… Read more »
John Stoltenberg has suggested that.
Where is this John fellow? I can’t find him in this thread.
Good old Mr. Stoltenberg doesn’t comment here. He’s just a male feminist who wrote a book called “Refusing to Be a Man.” Stoltenberg says that when a man fantasizes about women and masturbates, even without aid of pornography, it still constitutes objectification and devaluation of women. Male sexual fantasy per se is objectification. For him, it is bad when a man masturbates with memories of and passing thoughts about women, even when these fantasies are not violent. For a man to conjure up a mental image of a woman, her body, or its various parts, is to view the woman… Read more »
Now you’re grasping at straws, Megalodon. Bringing in some outside article is just silly. We’re trying to have a conversation here.
And didn’t you bring up your previous article up at your 10:42 a.m. comment when you complained about “obsessive questioning”?
Then don’t bring him up. He didn’t write the article. He didn’t comment here.
No, but his ideology and precepts are intimately linked with the propositions of the author of this article (as well as dozens of others on this site).
@Alyssa R.: “NOT ONE PERSON has suggested that you can’t glance at a woman. Or jerk off to an image of her in your head. ” Actually, some people (even here) suggests that you can’t glance at a women WHEN it’s making her uncomfortable (because making a woman uncomfortable is NEVER EVER allowed). And since you cannot know in advance WHAT makes her feel that way, you better never glance around. Just in case. Regarding the jerking off (privately), lots of feminists said that man doing that are lurid pigs and should burn in hell (of course, they never mentioned… Read more »
I thought we were discussing THIS article. Not anything that’s ever been said by anyone. Let’s stick with this article. This comment thread. (The feminists commenting here, all of whom have said, sneak a peak, take a quick glance, jerk off privately, but don’t bring the object into it actively.)
The way that you are describing your experience of ‘appreciating beauty’ is quite different from the sort of thing that I believe that many guys are describing here. Yes, guys appreciate beauty too. However, this really is not the sort of experience of looking at women that is at issue here. That experience is a more typically male experience and I seldom encounter women who really seem to manifest much of an understanding of it (this is well worth listening to on the subject—it really resonates with my experience and describes the sharp difference between a more typically female and… Read more »
Wow! An incredibly meaningful post which will be largely ignored here. But thanks for playing.
Yes it was.
It could have been a bit briefer though, something along the lines of: teenagers cannot be reasoned with -:)
For glances alone, the urge is hard to resist but continued staring requires active thought. I would be impressed to meet a standard person with a normal sexual drive who can resist looking at a naked person who is attractive of the opposite sex. I’d be impressed if they never looked at their cleavage for instance too. There are women who dress in such a way which HIGHLY increases the likelihood of people looking at her sexually, this increases even more if she is quite attractive. To expect people to never glance at her is foolish at best. To expect… Read more »
“Unsurprisingly, many women will strongly resent the idea of toning down their dress in order to bring out the best in men. However, all of us have to make allowances for those around us and moderate or tone down things that we would love to express on account of the weaknesses of others.” Tell that to indigenous men and women, and some African people. They see each other naked all the time and it’s normal, most of th times the body is not sexual, no hormone-driven wild urges there (thought some tribes would feel like it every tribe has a… Read more »
Rocky, I am confused. It seems to me that you are being whiny while accusing women of playing the victim. Do you hear yourself? I don’t want to mock you, but I am running out of options for taking you seriously. There could be a reasonable conversation about some of these things, but it seems clear it cannot be with you.
you say uncomfortable… what if cleavage in the workplace makes an old married guy uncomfortable? What if a women feel uncomfortable that an “ugly guy” looked (for a second) at her cleavage? This actually does happen.
This is a subjective term used to further vilify males.
Bullshit.
I’ve never met a man who felt “uncomfortable” because of business attire. Seriously. Only on the Internet.
Get over it.
I feel “uncomfortable” feelings of attraction for highly intelligent guys in beards and glasses. You know how I handle it? I deal with it quietly and don’t ask them to shave their beards or dumb down.
You are adults. Deal with this adult issue like adults.
Just because you never met such a person does not mean that such a person does not exist.
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202430875593&Federal_Judges_Grouse_About_Lawyers_Courtroom_Attire_
“Get over it.
I feel “uncomfortable” feelings of attraction for highly intelligent guys in beards and glasses. You know how I handle it? I deal with it quietly and don’t ask them to shave their beards or dumb down.
You are adults. Deal with this adult issue like adults.”
Get over being glanced at, deal with it like an adult. 😉