Men may be getting mixed messages about what women want, but Ben Neal believes that if men truly give their all, they not only become what women want, but also get a more fulfilling life.
There is a lot of talk lately about masculine and feminine, and the dance they do together—most of it by women.
I recently read one such article by Lori Ann Lothian, in which she describes the widespread disappointment women feel with men today (an “existential despondency”) and their deep soul longing for a warrior-hero to meet them and match them in life and in love. I also read several comments on Facebook from men who claim her article is unrealistic, a “little girl’s fantasy.”
Really guys? Is it ridiculous for a strong, intelligent, self-aware woman to ask for a man to be her partner and her equal?
I understand the disappointment Lori is talking about. I am a man raised by my Mom—not because my father left or ran away, but because he simply didn’t show up. He came home from work every day, cracked open a beer, turned on the TV and essentially checked out; while my mother (who also worked) handled all of the duties of raising children and maintaining a household.
I’ve seen enough to know that this dynamic is all too common. Generations of men have been raised without any real example of manhood; just an absentee father and whatever cultural stereotypes are being pushed by the media.
So we try to fit this “manly-man” image—be tough, work hard, make money, chase pussy, play sports, eat meat, drink booze—but it’s a hollow shell that doesn’t reflect the true depth of human nature. It’s an outward show that leaves us feeling fake and inadequate. To hide from that feeling we do whatever we can to tune out, zone out and escape reality.
More and more men are rejecting this macho bullshit; turning within, finding ourselves and embracing the feminine aspect of our nature. Unfortunately, we often swing too far toward the opposite end of the spectrum, and in getting in touch with our feelings we lose touch with the primal essence of masculinity.
Collectively, we’re still trying to find the balance.
I think it’s fair to say that we men are receiving mixed messages about what women want from us. We’re asked to be brave, strong, confident and sensitive, caring, emotionally intelligent. We’re asked to be ambitious, driven, successfuland to make time at home for family, love and intimacy. We’re asked to be artistic, romantic, passionate andbalanced and responsible; to provide security, stability and fun and adventure.
Not to mention, blow her mind between the sheets.
In short, we are being called to grow in all directions at once. We are being invited to push the boundaries, break the mold, and come into the fullness of who we are and what we are capable of.
And you know what? It’s about time.
It’s about time we stopped selling ourselves short. I’ve heard enough excuses such as “nobody’s perfect,” or “I’m only human.”
Women aren’t asking anything more than what your boss expects of you at work, or what your coach expects of you out on the field—that is, everything you’ve got. To be successful in sports, in your career, or anything in life, requires that you give your all. Why should relationships be any different?
Women aren’t asking us to be perfect, they are asking us to be fully ourselves; fully alive, awake and purposeful. They are calling us to be artists, poets, fathers, lovers, activists, leaders, entrepreneurs, craftsmen, teachers and trailblazers who are intentionally creating a new and better way of life.
Is this too much to ask?
If it is, that’s fine. Go back to sleep. Find yourself a woman who is equally unconscious and keep playing out the same old co-dependent drama. I wish you the best.
But the goddesses of the world are ready for awakened warriors; men who are bold and strong, clear and present, fierce and passionate. They are calling for a new generation of bodhisattvas—heroes on the battlefield of life. Men who will show up, give their all and not hold back.
I know you’re out there. It’s time to stand up and be counted. Speak out and be heard. Let the women of the world know that we are here. We are awake.
We are ready to dance.
–
Originally appeared at Elephant Journal
About Ben Neal
Ben Neal is a father, a musician, a mystic poet and lover of Zen. He lives with his beloved in Kansas City MO, writing and teaching meditation and experiential spirituality, tending his garden, raising his son and riding the wave of global Awakening. He loves to have passionate philosophical discussions on the nature of ultimate reality over hand crafted Belgian-style ale. He aims to suck the marrow out of life, and infect the world with unbounded Love and Freedom. Connect with him on Facebook or on his blog.
Photo: Flickr/Frog and Onion
What do you expect of women in reverse? I have never read an article demanding effort from women in the same way but articles like this urging men to man up are plentiful. Articles ltrying to demand any effort from women are bashed as trying to Control women. The alternative to the type of man you described first is not Your feminine side but a different masculinity. And not a masculinity that is only a name for a more feminine way of being but something actually masculine. Such men are plentiful in the past too yet if you only listen… Read more »
Hi Jules
Thank you,I am fine.
No I don’t think it is anything wrong with George, but he gets bored with his women.
Or maybe they kick him out of bed? I do not think of him as a player,but then I never read gossip about celebrities and their complicated love life.
Not everybody is cut out for marriage,that is true. But I am sure everybody wants love, one way or the other.
It is unlikely to expect there to be a magical combination of traits that that will universally guarantee any will have the perfect relationship. It’s a pitfall to assume simple words can explain the nuances of what happens to bring a woman and a man together without expanding those words with some definitions. I think at the very core of any potentially fulfilling relationship, there has to be a basic ability and willingness each to communicate with each other. Being able to say what it is you want/feel/desire. There are as variations of people as there are fish in the… Read more »
Hi James
Thank you.
You must have given this a lot of thought.
This advice is impossible to take seriously.It’s like I’m sitting in a workshop,in a hot tub in the Marin Headlands with people who really should be covered up,listening to a lecture on how to pick up self professed concious women.This is the kind of woman who can’t wait to show you the exhausting list of characteristics she must have in a man.And you know how much men enjoy that. You know it is possible to price oneself right out of the dating market.
Hi Copyleft Honestly, I do not understand what you mean. I have read up some MGTOW websites yesterday and this is the impression I got from reading them. It is totally impossible for me to understand what you mean and what you talk about. I do not grasp want you say, can not figure our what you mean. It seems you only repeat one sentence again and again and again in the hope that magics will happen. The sentence you repeat is women relentlessly focus on what women want. When I ask what YOU want you continue to say I… Read more »
I wish I could believe you, but it’s seeming increasingly unlikely. My question has not been “Why isn’t anyone asking what men want?” That’s a valid question, and it’s not asked nearly often enough.
My question is “What are women OFFERING that makes them think they deserve our time, effort, and attention?” And they can’t seem to come up with an answer–in fact, the very concept seems foreign to them.
Hi Copyleft You write: ✺question is “What are women OFFERING that makes them think they deserve our time, effort, and attention?” ✺ It is impossible for me to know what other women offer their partner,husband or lover. What I have offered is: *A warm body to cuddle( a clean sweet smelling trim well trained body). *Some days sex in addition to body warmth. * faithfulness *Hopefully interesting company and conversations since I have spent long years at the university and read up on many subjects after that. * friendship * emotional support and understanding * money and property *skills and… Read more »
Sorry Copyleft
I forgot one important thing:
WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO OFFER?
Finally! A woman steps up and answers the question.
Note: The woman who stepped up and answered the question was NOT American. Now, that speaks volumes.
Thank you Iben. Everything you want and desire is perfectly reasonable to me.
Cheers!
Hi Jules
Thank you for your warm,kind words.
There is not enough popcorn in the world for this discussion…
Women aren’t asking anything more than what your boss expects of you at work, or what your coach expects of you out on the field—that is, everything you’ve got. To be successful in sports, in your career, or anything in life, requires that you give your all. Why should relationships be any different? Because maybe, just maybe, we’d like a space where we don’t have to put on a front? The other arenas you list are just as much laced with bravado as the “manly-man” “macho bullshit” you list earlier in your article. If our relationships are just more of… Read more »
“Women aren’t asking anything more than what your boss expects of you at work, or what your coach expects of you out on the field—that is, everything you’ve got.”
My boss gives me a paycheck; my coach helps me earn a victory or trophy that I already wanted. What are women offering in return for all this hard work? Funny how the question never even occurs to many women, isn’t it?
“I’ve seen enough to know that this dynamic is all too common. Generations of men have been raised without any real example of manhood; just an absentee father and whatever cultural stereotypes are being pushed by the media. So we try to fit this “manly-man” image—be tough, work hard, make money, chase pussy, play sports, eat meat, drink booze—but it’s a hollow shell that doesn’t reflect the true depth of human nature. It’s an outward show that leaves us feeling fake and inadequate. To hide from that feeling we do whatever we can to tune out, zone out and escape… Read more »
“Sorry that your dad was a beer drinking slug but he was not the norm.”
The problem was never the Dad. The author grew up thinking he had to please women…most especially his mother. This was something his mother taught him. But it has never and will never be a man’s job to please a woman. His father knew this. His mother didn’t.
And that’s something a lot of women have yet to realize too—because they’ve been given the opposite message by feminism: “Women are fabulous the way they are, no woman should change to please a man, and men are defined by how well they meet women’s needs and expectations.”
Well, screw that. An authentic men’s movement doesn’t give a damn WHAT women want, expect or require of men–it concerns itself solely with what works for MEN, period. Women’s input is neither helpful nor requested.
And this is going on in this article too. Women, well they’re already goddesses. Apparently. But us sucky men, well, if we try really hard we can be bodhisattvas! Not gods, just perpetual seekers. So we’re supposed to aspire to something touted as equal and yet couched in very unequal language, and the best we can hope for is to be a disappointment, because even though women don’t really want knights in shining armour, they just want warrior-hero monks instead. In the same breath as an acknowledgement that the demands placed on men are frequently contradictory. Ahem. Yeah, can’t imagine… Read more »
How attraction ACTUALLY works in America: Jay, a sweet, kind, but also short, balding, and otherwise not particularly interesting man asks his “friend,” Jane – a woman he’s been pining after for nearly five years — what he can do to improve his luck with the ladies. Jane tells him, “Well, I just read an article on GMP about how men need to be more open-hearted. Maybe you should try that…” Jay, having no real idea of what the heck that even means, responds, “Okay… sure, I’ll try that.” Jay spends the next three months meditating, studying Buddhist teachings, and… Read more »
And Jane deserved to be used for sex because why again?
I can understand your frustration. We all have our own frustrations at things the other gender seems to do.. I can’t understand why that excuses treating women poorly or why it’s women’s fault how *Jay* decides to treat them or turn out.
Other than the obvious fact that this story is very one sided, I can see a lot of things Jay didn’t do well.
@Erin…
How was she used for sex? It was consensual.
Btw, was not Jay treated poorly by Jane? It is the same guy inside that she spurned years ago. Now that he is buffed, shaved head, and tan he is some how different. It’s simply crazy Erin.
It’s the same animal in different clothes. But, NOW she wants to fuck him. It is this mentality by a lot of women that is a complete turn off to many men, myself included.
And the author wants to talk about “being authentic…” I truly scoff at the notion.
Jules, consensual doesn’t mean that one person isn’t still using the other. And I don’t see how Jay was treated poorly by Jane. Because she didn’t want to sleep with him at first? That’s treating him poorly? Do you know how many guys didn’t pay attention to me when I was chubbier? Guys who just wanted to be my friend while they went for my hotter friends? When I lost the weight, I got a lot more attention. Where they treating me poorly? I would say they weren’t treating me poorly even if it would have been nice if they… Read more »
@DD
LMAO!!!!!
So true. Just does not take 5 years. Usually, it is a different man who a lot of women sleep with. But, these guys just “hit it and quit it.”
Honestly, all these guys are doing is the EXACT same thing that many women already do to men. This is why I argue that young men today should simply become serial daters and/or serial monogamist. Women can talk all they want about authentic connections blah blah blah. But, it’s mostly rubbish.
Hi Jules
I hope you are fine these days.
But this comment confuses me:
✺”This is why I argue that young men today should simply become serial daters and/or serial monogamist”✺
It is my impression that men already are serial daters and/ or serial monogamists.
But maybe you simply say to young men:” do not marry.”
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/07/i-oppose-tax-breaks-marriage-%E2%80%93-why-should-i-subsidise-other-people%E2%80%99s-weird-lifestyl
I posted this once before, but I think it is funny enough to be posted twice.
@Iben..
Hello Iben!
What I am saying is men should do precisely what women are doing today. Become serial daters and serial monogamists.
Men should clean themselves up, hit the gym,…..in essence make themselves marketable to women. But, offer little to no commitment, either long term or short term. When the man is tired of her, just dump her and move on to the next woman.
Why? This is what women here in America do on a daily basis to men.
Hi Jules
You sound a bit pessimistic my friend. I hope your relationship will last.
@Iben…
No, I am not pessimistic.
My relationship will last as long as she will have me. So far so good. She is a kind, intelligent, unselfish, and beautiful human being. We think very much a like. She too was never interested in “going through a bunch of men” as she likes to say.
Life Is Good Iben. Especially when you have a good person as your partner.
@Iben…. You wrote, *It is my impression that men already are serial daters and/ or serial monogamists. But maybe you simply say to young men:” do not marry.”* Only a few men are so privileged Iben. Yesterday, I was working out in the gym. A guy came in and several women literally went flocking to him to say “Hi Paris”…One of the female trainers said he was just a player. So, you see. Here is a good looking, well groomed, well built guy who is a player who has probably screwed half the women in the gym…..Lucky him. Yet they… Read more »
Hi Jules You write about players: ✺”So, you see. Here is a good looking, well groomed, well built guy who is a player who has probably screwed half the women in the gym…..Lucky him.”✺ We don’t use word player where I live,but I imagine you mean men that sleep with many women and seldom commit to long term relationships with any of them. I have known four players in the biblical sense. Maybe I would use the word Don Juan, Playboy, Cassanova.. We were close friends. They all had something in common in addition to extraordinary good looks. Four men… Read more »
@Iben… Hello! Hope all is well with you. “What I try to tell you Jules, is that behind this apparently successful image of the player, the playboy, the Don Juan , is often an emotional problem that stops them from moving into long term relationships” It’s possible. Could it also be they are having too much fun to want a LTR or get married? If you look at say George Clooney, he is a serial dater/monogamist. Guy seems to be very happy and enjoying himself. I don’t think there is anything emotionally wrong with him. He is just not cut… Read more »
I feel like I would rather just give up. Women have learned to demand a great deal but provide less and less in return.
“Women aren’t asking us to be perfect, they are asking us to be fully ourselves; fully alive, awake and purposeful. They are calling us to be artists, poets, fathers, lovers, activists, leaders, entrepreneurs, craftsmen, teachers and trailblazers who are intentionally creating a new and better way of life.” This very much resonated with me. I’ve never expected perfection from the men who have been a part of my life, romantically, familiar or otherwise. But I’ve felt that they sometimes just gave up a little bit. And it’s that “little bit” part that can be so insideous because it’s not always… Read more »
Erin. “This very much resonated with me.” I just don’t get it with women. We men are already these things and more!So, just what is the author’s point here. This piece is just to pander to women. It has very little to do with men. Why should a man go through all these changes for a woman when 80% of women are NOT willing to like wise for men. Only a sucker would go for what the author is suggesting. The bottom line Erin is it simply is not worth it for most men. I certainly speak for myself. I… Read more »
As always, MGTOW have the answer.
Until more women recognize that male attention is something they have to earn, rather than be entitled to, we’re going to have this problem of nonstop demands and complaints. Take away the supply, and see how long it takes demand to adjust.
Copyleft, I don’t feel entiteld to male attention. Neither do I believe I should have to “earn” male attention either. I should be recongnized by men as a valid human being. Not just in terms of my sexuality. I do believe I should have to earn a “good relationship” though. By the way, the kind of women you are talking about, the ones that easily receive male attention, those are not for the majortity of us average girls that watch the way men pander, cater, oggle and trip all over themselves for the youngest, hottest babes. Us regular girls are… Read more »
Hi Copyleft You write: ✺”Take away the supply, and see how long it takes demand to adjust.”✺ Respectfully , Can you tell me what you supply now that you withhold as strategy to change society and change women? I try to read up on this ,but it is still somewhat unclear to me, so have patience . This is not me attacking you, all I want is to understand . Do you no longer want to supply: Is it marriage ? Is it sex? Love? Is it taking care of your child? Is it any contribution to your society ?… Read more »
“MGTOW can not control women’s reproduction . We can become pregnant using a teaspoon filled with semen. No intercourse needed. But that is what all this is about ,isn’t it. Control of women’s reproduction, but not wanting to take care of children . Tell me what coutries do MGTOW emmigrate to for a better life?” ….and here we see that your polite inquiries, ‘with all due respect,’ have been disingenuous. Not a big surprise, really. If you can’t move past your relentless focus on what women want and what’s best for women, you have nothing to contribute to a discussion… Read more »
Hi Copyleft
You write:
“move past your relentless focus on what women want and what’s best for women, you have nothing to contribute to a discussion of men’s issues.”
Copyleft it is nothing new to me that a man try to dominate me,and silence me.
Nice try,but it only makes me smile 🙂
@Iben:
But that is what all this is about ,isn’t it. Control of women’s reproduction, but not wanting to take care of children .
“women’s” reproduction?
Are you saying that men do not reproduce? Or are you saying that men should have no control over the result if THEIR contribution to the reproduction?
Last time I checked, it was still needed both a woman and a man to reproduce..
Hi FlyingKal I hope you are fine 🙂 Of course both men and women reproduce. We get children together and hopefully raise them together as well. I simply tried to understand the ideology of MGTOW, how they think, what they react agains,why they are so angry( even hateful) and how some of them see as a strategy to change society ( or women). Different websites have somewhat different views, but many give the impression that MGTOW refuse to enter relationships ,marriage and refuse to take the responsibility of fathers. Ask them Flyimgkal,if MGTOW want to take on the RESPONSIBILTY of… Read more »
Jules, I appreciate your honest and graceful response. I don’t think the piece is meant to pander to women. I also don’t think the piece is suggesting men simply do what women want men to do for the sake of making women happy. (Although, I don’t know what is so offensive about a man wanting to do things to make his partner happy. What man doesn’t like when his partner does this for him?) I think the piece is simply calling men to be fully present and to not use fantasy as an escape by approaching our real feelings and… Read more »
@Erin….
“Men may be interested in material about how to sleep with women, but it doesn’t always feel like men are very intersted in matieral about how to authentically connect with us. Sometimes, it feels like it’s simply all about the sex.”
Well, you have a point here. IMO, knowing how to connect with a woman means getting to know her as a person first. The sex should be secondary. If I cannot connect with her or discover who she really is as a person, then I am not interested in sex with her, period.
Well spoken and from the heart Erin….that is definitely a turn-on…
P.S. This is not digitally flirting. I don’t DO flirting. It’s just what my first response was.
Thank you PursuitAce. That’s one of the best things someone’s said to me on the internet.
“Women aren’t asking us to be perfect, they are asking us to be fully ourselves; fully alive, awake and purposeful. They are calling us to be artists, poets, fathers, lovers, activists, leaders, entrepreneurs, craftsmen, teachers and trailblazers who are intentionally creating a new and better way of life.”
What man, who is or does all that, would have time with a woman?
@Erin:
. I htink women just want to see men who try.
“try”
“Try” what?
@FlyingKal…
EXACTLY!!! Just what the hell is it they want us to try? Many men have gone beyond trying. They have sacrificed, been treated as second class citizens by their wives,……
I just don’t know what else men can do.
Btw, it seems as if a lot of women are attracted to men who really don’t have to do a damn thing other than just show up.
Well, it hasn’t been my experience that men have gone “beyond trying”. It’s also not my experience that women are attracted to men who simply show up. That seems insulting to me. It also seems arrogant to believe that men are these perfectly formed human beings that have done everything they can do and it’s women that are the problem.
Hi Erin and Jules I agree with Erin. Yesterday I had somewhat of an insight. In my effort to understand MGTOW I browsed through forums,debates,read some articles and saw the hate some men had at women in general. It is hate and contempt and they intent to harm all women ,pump and dump them. When we permit ourselves to generalize our feelings of anger like that we do exactly the same thing as racists do. They believe some persons are inferior just because of some differences from themselves like the shape of the eyes,nose,skin color and so on. And they… Read more »
Beautifully said Iben and so insightful.
“When we permit ourselves to generalize our feelings of anger like that we do exactly the same thing as racists do. They believe some persons are inferior just because of some differences from themselves like the shape of the eyes,nose,skin color and so on. And they believe they have a right to treat others like shit and ruin their life if possible.”
So true! I hate that term “pump and dump” but i’ve heard men say it alot. Like women deserve to be used like that.
@Iben.. Hello! I am not familiar with the MGTOW movement. All I can honestly say is there are a lot of hurting men her in America. Remember, hurting people hurt others. We men have been told to be a, b, c, d……etc and you will “get the girl.” Many men have done what a lot women SAY they want, desire, and need only to be rebuffed. I understand rejection. I understand that that it is pretty silly of men to think that the woman of their choice will or should like them. If they are made because they could not… Read more »
Hi Jules You ask: ✺”I have a question for you Iben. If a woman has a man around just for sex (she really does not like him and would not even consider dating him but the sex is good), is this using/exploiting the man?”✺ She must be pretty desperate! Women often feel used if men do this to them. I do not know how men feel in the same situation. But I would feel I used a man if I treated him like that. Many men have asked me jokingly :” please use me”,but what happens if you accept the… Read more »
@Iben.. Hello Iben! Thanks for your reply. Remember this piece from the HP? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/emma-johnson/ingle-moms-and-other-stro_b_3117711.html Here is an excerpt, “I could write a whole post on the beauty of going out with men you have no interest in dating long-term. If you don’t care if you ever see the guy again, somehow everyone is freer to be themselves — and enjoy each other more. If I was looking at Lou through relationship goggles, I might have bristled when describing his most recent relationship with a woman who moved into her new house by transporting one dining chair per day in her… Read more »
Hi Jules This woman made a date with a man on a dating site. I suspect this is a dating site where also some want to hook up for one night? Maybe they agreed before they met that this would be a one night stand, a fling. On The Guardians dating site you can choose what kind of relationship you look for: *A fling . *let’s see what happens . * long lasting relationship and marriage. I read last week a woman wrote this: “Italian men are said to be terrible for one night stands. Because they want to take… Read more »
@Iben… Hi! You asked, “Tell me why this story makes you so upset Jules. It touches something in you and you have sympathy for Lou. Do you see a friendly warm man that gets used?” First, let me say I could care less about Lou. He simply did what most men in America would have done if they had the same opportunity: he got some sex. He is 6’3, Italian, well built….I am sure he gets to do this quite often. These are the men that many women in America love to fuck. Now, let’s turn to the big picture.… Read more »
@Erin,
All I am saying is when I look at the total landscape out here, there are women (not all, probably not most) who demand hardly anything of some men other than being good looking and well built. These women are attracted to them for these reasons alone Why? Because all they (the women) are seeking, at the moment, is a good rump.
Are you denying this fact?
@Erin:
Well, it hasn’t been my experience that men have gone “beyond trying”.
I didn’t say that.
I merely asked what efforts are left untried.
Also, I often find that the ones who actually are trying their best, often get disregarded as the act of “trying” itself seems unattractive…
“Women aren’t asking us to be perfect, they are asking us to be fully ourselves; fully alive, awake and purposeful. They are calling us to be artists, poets, fathers, lovers, activists, leaders, entrepreneurs, craftsmen, teachers and trailblazers who are intentionally creating a new and better way of life.” Men are already these things! Obviously, it still is not good enough. A man should be himself, period. Trying to be what most women supposedly want you to be (only for her to wake up one morning and say she us “unhappy” or “unfulfilled”) is simply ludicrous. This article has to be… Read more »
I’m nobody’s hero, and I’m not a warrior, neither metaphorically nor actually. Sorry.
Just because you haven’t given the things you fight for name, doesn’t mean you’re not a warrior.
Couldn’t agree more Jules. Very oppositional to what this project is about
I just want to point out, once again, how deeply ingrained, and largely unconscious, this hetero-normative ideal actually is. As one woman above put it, “when in a relationship I give 100%, otherwise what is the point?”, essential re-capitulating Ben Neal’s “bodhisattva warrior” call. But if you take even a short step back, you quickly come to recognize several things: First, no one gives 100% to any human endeavor all the time – ever. There’s an ebb and flow of how much attention we pay to any activity, and any relationship. Second, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with a man deciding… Read more »
You make some excellent points here, most notably in the area of monogamy and whether or not that’s even a fair expectation of men any more. In many ways, we’ve already become a de facto “monogamish” society already. Even though I’m in my early 30s, I have a bunch of college-aged friends, and NONE of them are in a strictly monogamous relationship. They swap partners like guys in my age bracket swapped baseball cards back in the day. In many urban environments, this practice likely extends up to men and women in their 30s and beyond, even if it’s often… Read more »
Paul, for me, treating any human being as a “hobby”, seems rather disrespectful. Even for the friends I only get to see a few times a year, they aren’t a “hobby” to me. They are very much a “labor of love”. Feminism or no Feminism, I think men and women should still work together. And they should want to work together. DD, do you know what I saw in school? I saw young men who wanted to treat women like party favors. We were judged and talked about based on how good our bodies where or weren’t. If our bodies… Read more »
Hi Erin
Well said.
And when Paul say men have the sexual power from the age late20/early 30 then we can tell him that he is delusional .
Maybe it feels good to live with illusions like that, but it is no more than illusions. Pathetic illusions .
And who wants sexual power over another human being?
I prefer a love relationship not a struggle about who has the most sexual power.
I’m with you Iben, who wants sexual power over anotherh uman being? Well said! I don’t! I want to have healthy relationships with men. Not ones riddled who power plays. The truth is, the truth that I fear a lot of men don’t want to see, is that we all got it hard. Life is hard. Relationships is hard. We don’t always get the love or sex lives we desire. That goes for women and men. And if you stopped blaming women for everything from Feminism to the lack of satisfaction you (general “you”) as a man may feel, and… Read more »
Genius, Paul. Why anyone should bother to post after this I have no idea.
A near-perfect reply, Paul. Congrats.
Hi Paul Your comments are fine. But somehow I feel lots of the conflicts and anger we see here has to do with conflicts over children , anger from brutal divorces in America. I can understand that hatred. But… You write: “✺Second, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with a man deciding that he’s going to treat his relationship with a woman as an avocation, rather than a vocation – a hobby rather than a job or even a labor of love.”✺ I agree, as long as the man don’t want children and make sure he never make any woman pregnant. .… Read more »
“So we try to fit this “manly-man” image—be tough, work hard, make money, chase pussy, play sports, eat meat, drink booze—but it’s a hollow shell that doesn’t reflect the true depth of human nature. It’s an outward show that leaves us feeling fake and inadequate. To hide from that feeling we do whatever we can to tune out, zone out and escape reality.” When I was younger, I tried skipping out on most of that stuff at one time or another. Because it was “macho bullshit” or seemed more healthy, or some girl I liked had a liking for one… Read more »
I’m going to need a clear definition of bodhisattva and “hero on the battlefield of life”. I find this entirely troublesome language. Just so you’d know, my roshi has never told me that I should be a hero on the battlefield of life. He’s told me that, on the contrary, my perceptions are illusions. Life is a battlefield if you fight with it. What is the responsibility of a hero in the battlefield of life, and in what way does a woman’s happiness depend on, or find itself influenced by, this bodhisattva? Also, is she already a bodhisattva just by… Read more »
Exactly. If every man’s a hero, then none of us are. Why even bother to make the distinction?
I’ve reached a point in my life where my own real focus is to continue to grow as a person and to contribute my unique and valuable gifts to this world. If women respond to that, then great, but if not so be it. Men who’s sense of worth is too heavily influenced by how women view them are lead inevitably toward destruction. It’s a story as old as the bible itself.
I’m not a fan of this article, but I thought I would add that the Elephant Journal that the author references is much more nuanced and balanced. I applaud Lori Ann Lothian for that and also question why we’re continuing to experience so much male-bashing from other men; even when women aren’t asking for it. And here I was hoping that had died off with the Hugo Schwyzer’s well publicized self-destructive exit from the blogging scene.
We experience so much male bashing in general because men can take it. Well up to now that is. But if many women are right and more men are really boys than men, I would expect a lot more push back from those boys. Or whining as some people call it. The problem with criticizing boys is that what they really need is more training and more experience. Otherwise they would be men. See the problem with the constant critique?
Instead of being defensive, and filtering through only to come up with rebuttals, how about just try it? Be openminded and realize that we women really don’t want perfect, but we want someone who is there, actually conscious and there. I cannot speak for all women, nor men, but when in a relationship I give 100%, otherwise what is the point?
How about, instead of women spelling out yet again what they want and need and require, they try earning it? I’m still waiting for someone to explain what’s in it for men to jump through these hoops; why, exactly, should they be constantly trying to meet women’s demands? What are women offering to make it worth our time and trouble?
The correct answer to “Where are all the good men?” is “What are you offering in return?”
i thought the correct answer was “Can’t you see them? They’re over there, hanging out with the good women…”
*chuckle* Good one!
Hi Copyleft
Now I have answered your question.
Lets here what you have to offer?
Be openminded and realize that we women really don’t want perfect, but we want someone who is there, actually conscious and there.
Being open-minded has told me that whatever it is women want, it is not me.
Hi Flyingkal
Are there any MGTOW in your country?
.
Hi Iben,
I don’t understand the question.
I guess there’s a fair share of men who are for a multitude of reasons not living with a woman in their life, if that’s what you mean. But there’s no organization to it, as far as I’m aware of.
Why do you ask?
Hi Flyingkal
I ask because I have never heard of this phenomena in our part of the world.
It is not exactly a movement but maybe we can decribe it as an idea,ideology and a strategy for social change . The PUA community and MGTOW are intertwined it seems.
Hi Iben,
I don’t have any experience with either movement (PUA or MGTOW).
But from the outside they seem to be rather opposite, I would say. One is about how to best pick up women, i.e. maximize the social interaction, while the other seems to be about choosing to have the least interaction possible.
Then again, most of us who are alone doesn’t need a movement for that. We “managed” that all by ourselves…
Hi Flyingkal
You have a great sense of humor .
I hope things turn out well for you.
Thank you, thank you!
Yes, men are receiving mixed messages from women these days…and mixed messages from the world, generally. We’re living in an age of great flux, when all the old rules, assumptions and roles are crumbling. The best thing to do in response is simply ignore all the other voices – and particularly the voices of demanding and contradictory women – and find your own way as a man. Finding your own way doesn’t mean going your own way. It might mean doing what this guy is doing, and re-inventing his own version of domestic life. But then again, it might mean… Read more »
Pretty much this…Thanks Paul. As a friend to women everywhere I’m here for you if you need it. So far you haven’t needed it so what’s up?
Well if my comment makes it through moderation it doesn’t read right. But I think you get it.
Apparently women, who are goddesses, are desperate about what they’re not getting from men. First they’re going to find out what it means to be feminine again. Then I suppose they’ll get back to us. By us I mean the men they find attractive. So that would be some of you guys out there. As a friend zone member of the goddesses I’m here to offer any help you might need. Unless you find that offensive. Otherwise we can just go back to loving life together.
Hi PursuitAce says:
Tell us what you mean when you say :
✺”find out what it means to be feminine again”✺
I am curious. Is it all about how we look,dress and depend on men,or can you give a description of feminine women?
What I think of as feminine is no longer relevant. I was referring to Lori Ann Lothian’s comment in her article. So I guess she can answer that when she figures it out. It looks to me like women are going to figure out what the new femininity is as well as the new masculine. I just want to see how it all plays out.
As always, women are demanding that men step up and try to please them, meet their standards, and accept the challenge of making women happy.
Men are responding, quite reasonably, “Why should we?” And it seems that women don’t have a good answer to that.
Exactly. These articles must bring in a ton of pageviews, otherwise I’m not sure why GMP would see the need to run some variation of the same article every few weeks. What it all comes down to is the fact that people respond to incentives. For men, the message we get in our teens and twenties is that unless you are good-looking, popular, and/or know your way around women, you’re pretty much out of luck when it comes to dating. The so-called “alphas” tend to dominate the dating scene. This changes somewhat as we age and women start looking to… Read more »
I think your emphasis on “attractive” women is interesting. You seem to be blaming women for wanting the men who are interesting, good looking, strong etc. (“alpha males”) yet you yourself would obviously prefer to date women you find attractive, as opposed to, say, chubby, shy girls who don’t exude any sexual energy. Women are no different — it’s human nature to pursue what is attractive to us. I don’t have a solution — as an average looking woman, I know what it’s like to be on the sidelines while the interesting people chase after the hotties. It’s a sad… Read more »
Yeah, I started adding the “attractive” label after a discussion here on GMP. My argument was (and still is) that attractive men and women have much different responses to their dating options than their less attractive peers. If we’re attracted to a certain type of individual, then we should spend some time figuring out what things they might be attracted to and start to incorporate them into our personality. I don’t think there’s anything sad about it; it’s just reality. And I’m not blaming women for being attracted to a certain type of man. I just think articles like this… Read more »
Because most of us try to do the very same.
“Men are responding, quite reasonably, “Why should we?” And it seems that women don’t have a good answer to that.” Because we’re tired of settling for the wrong guy. Because we don’t want to be your Manic Pixie Dream Girl any more than you probably want to be funneled into being a fairy tale prince. Because we want a fully developed partner–not someone to take care of and not someone to take care of us, but someone to match our strength, our pride, our confidence, our self-awareness, our vulnerability and honesty. Because we want to be as inspired by you… Read more »
To which we respond, “Well surely not all men are like that (ie, ‘the wrong guy’, so why then do you continue to choose the men that are?”
So when men ask “why should we try to meet your standards?”, the reply is “because we’re tired of putting up with lousy guys who don’t.”
Do you see how that doesn’t answer the question? Stop telling us about what YOU want and need, and tell us why MEN should care. What’s in it for us? What are WE getting in return?
Hi Copyleft You write: ✺” Stop telling us about what YOU want and need, and tell us why MEN should care. What’s in it for us? What are WE getting in return?”✺ It is a fair question, but do you Copyleft ask :what’s in it for me and what do I get in return?” Do you approach women with that thought in your mind? Then what happens when you fall in love? Do you close your heart and move on because you already feel she can not love you back and she will not even try to treat you with… Read more »
Did you read past the first sentence of her answer?
Yes, I did. And it was the same explanation of what WOMEN want, what WOMEN are tired of, what WOMEN are looking for, etc. etc.
Tell me why I should care. Tell me why ANY man should care.
Hi Copyleft
I think we have a communication problem. Maybe my English is not good enough, all my English teachers in high school will say so.
I ask what YOU want.
What do you Copyleft want ?
The article is a requirement for us (men) to step up our game, because we are not meeting the standards that you (women) obviously want, need, demand and deserve. I think Copyleft poses a fair question, one that deserves more than just mirroring the same question, since nowhere the article mentions anything about in what way women have stepped up or what the “rewards” may be. (Not to mention the masses of men who already have stepped up, only to be disregarded.) i wrote a “list” a couple of months ago about what I wanted out of a relationship and… Read more »
Hi Flyingkal Please write a new list and post it. I look forward to it. I tried to communicate with Copyleft, but see I failed in my efforts. So I give up. As MGTOW he prefer to never have any relationships with women so of course he don’t have to listen to,talk to,befriend or make love to women. He can sleep alone for the rest of his life. This is his choice and I respect that. Since he prefer to never have relationships then he don’t have to go in dialogue with women or try to understand a women. He… Read more »
Iben:
“I tried to communicate with Copyleft, but see I failed in my efforts. So I give up.”
From where I sit, returning the question “What do you want?” with “What do YOU want?” is hardly an effort in communication.
But I’m sorry for bargaining in. Maybe you have solved your problems now, for all I know.
Hi Flyingkal Yes,I waste my time . I am not qualified to communicate with men that is filled with hate against me and anything female. Let them go their own way,why worry about where they end up. They tell us they will stop “the supply”,but will not tell what it is they withhold or can supply. . I guess they will stop the supply of men that marry women, raise families and take care of their children. They write on webpages that all they want is to exploit the sluts sexually in one night stands and dump them. Lets hope… Read more »
Yes, I saw your question, Iben, and I thank you for asking it. However, it doesn’t answer my question, which is what I was hoping to address.
Hi Copyleft Forgive me. I saw your answer first after I wrote a answer to Flyingkal. I know him from earlier that is why I spoke with him. I will try if I can to answer your question, but then only as a question asked from a man that wants some kind of contact with at least one woman. If you want to live as A Man That Go Your Own Way without anything to do with women, then you do not have to communicate with or read any article written by women about what they dream of. But if… Read more »
Or ‘awakened warrior-hero’.
Same concept, different presentation, hence the backlash to this article.