Ideologues who lacks compassion for half of humanity will not secure freedom for anyone.
I spent a little too long on the internet today. I was on a mission to find out the thoughts women and men had on hair removal, specifically women removing hair from places that men don’t usually remove it from (i.e. underarms, legs). What I thought would be a history lesson along with some useful statistics turned into hours of achy-backed, red-eyed, horror-stricken internet browsing as I saw just how verbally violent commentators on all sides of not only this issue, but feminism-related discourse in general, were willing to get.
First there were the celebrity gossip pages. While I was pretty surprised at Julia Roberts going au naturale, I wasn’t really very shocked at the words “blunder”, “style sin”, and “wooly mammoth” being used to describe celebrities with armpit hair. My favourite articles were one that listed celebrities who “forgot” to shave their armpits and another which ended by saying “But, don’t worry, it’s okay. Everyone runs out of razors once in a while. Even celebrities!” As if anyone would ever do that on purpose. This didn’t shock me because celebrities uphold the status quo. The status quo is part of our current culture and that culture has certain beauty standards. Those standards include hair removal. To avoid hair removal is to deviate from the current norm. Regardless of how it should, could, or would be, that is the truth.
The part that did shock me, however, was that the very people at the head of the fight against such standards, the powerhouse behind female liberation, the feminists, came off just as aggressive. One article author, whom I’ll keep anonymous, proudly mentioned her lack of hair removal rituals before saying how “annoying” it was when men replied to women’s discussions of hair removal with claims of how “it’s hard for them too.” She said she didn’t want to even waste any breath responding to such “nonsense.” Despite the reality that there are, in fact, media pressures on men to remove hair regularly from not only their faces, but now their chests, backs, and private parts, this woman didn’t believe men’s feelings deserved discussion.
And she isn’t the only one. Dozens, hundreds, thousands of comments from feminist publications make scoffing, derisive, and dismissive comments towards men who post replies. While I’m sure, once in a while, there are men who say aggressive things, these men’s comments are not anywhere in sight. The comments that are left up are usually full of validation and then sharing, something that says “That’s really hard to deal with, I agree. Here’s what it’s like from a guy’s perspective … ” These comments are left up and then bashed by dozens of women.
I realize I’m launching myself straight into the jaws of the big, bad controversy and siding with the likes of Suzanne Venker (“War on Men”) and Naomi Wolf (“Vagina”) who have been bashed by feminists all over the world for their claims about female-male relationships. I’d still like to try and be a feminist, i.e. an advocate for women, as well as an advocate for men without being labelled a loony, old bag.
Stephen Covey, in 7 Habits of Effective People, describes three levels of relationship maturity:
- Dependent: The paradigm of “you.” Dependent people need others to get their needs met and blame others when those needs are not met.
- Independent: The paradigm of “I.” Independent people use their own efforts and resources to get what they want and take responsibility for their actions and choices.
- Interdependent: The paradigm of “we.” Interdependent people work together, combine their strengths, and supplement each others’ weaknesses to create great things and reach new heights.
There is no shortage of current literature encouraging independence, but we live in an interdependent society where we have to work together to get things done in our personal and work relationships. Covey says that we move through these three stages in order, needing to be independent before we reach interdependence, and that interdependence is the highest level. It allows us to achieve more than we ever could alone.
The way I see it, feminism is responding to the changing maturity of female-male relationships. We’ve surpassed the point where we need men to marry us and earn money so that we can survive. We’ve surpassed that point where blamed all our failures as women to thrive in society on patriarchal pressures. Now, we’re in the era of independence. The independent woman reigns. The independent woman can make her own money, raise her kids alone, drive her own car, and pay her own bills. The independent woman is equipped with her trusty vibrator, group of friends, and cell phone for no-strings-attached hookups. This is progress from where we were 40 years ago, but that doesn’t mean it’s the best we can do.
A lot of the time, whenever someone speaks out for the possibility that men could be harmed by the rather casually unintentional aggressiveness of feminism, the retort is something like “And what do you suggest, we start cooking and cleaning for them again? We lie down and give up our rights to voting, abortion, and equal pay? You must be joking.” I agree. That would be a joke. Reverting to the dependence stage after independence would be ridiculous. But what about interdependence? What about working together?
Unless men and women are going to stop engaging in any sort of interactions and that includes sex, civil union, and child-raising, there will come points when we need to work together. At those points, we can remain “I” and “I” or work to become a “we.” The difference, of course, is that “I” can only fight for “me” and likely against “you.” “We” can fight for “us.” It reminds me of a Swedish proverb I absolutely love: “Shared joy is a double joy; shared sorrow is half a sorrow.”
This was previously published on Authentunity.
Read more on Body Image on The Good Life.
Image credit: istolethetv/Flickr
More narcissistic crap that’s destroying Western civilization. Woman was made for man, man was made for woman. Cook for us? Is that all? Oh, God forbid that women love and serve the men who worked to provide, protect and cherish. Men’s side of the equation was nothing, eh? Feminism is where love and romance go to die. Independent? LOL! The entire edifice of feminism is predicated on government, the adulterous woman’s sugar daddy, infanticide, fornication and adultery. Feminist is rank sociopathy.
Personally, I have always believed that the American preoccupation of hair removal was really an effort to get away from the proposed ancestral ape. It has also occurred to me that it might relate to Asian and American Indian envy – we tend to have very little body hair or facial hair.
@: AdelaideRozaleMarie:I am always amazed at the faux umbrage of women who seem to forget that feminism has a recent history-like today- of racism, sexism, classism and other inequalities. I get sooo tired of hearing feminists scream at the top of their lungs about inequality while turning a blind eye to their own history.
We’ve surpassed that point where blamed all our failures as women to thrive in society on patriarchal pressures.
Really? Since when? Someone needs to notify the most prominent and loudest voices of online femnist activism of this change, because they’re all still singing the same old song.
Social change? I like who I am, I don’t want to conform to some liberal idea as to what “social change” is. I’ve managed to survive 5 heart attacks, gain and loss of a lot of money and assets. 38 years of a great marraige and two outstanding grandkids … what social change do I need to work on? I accept people for who they are.If she doesn’t want to shave, that;s on her … I think it’s gross but that’s me.My wife shaves and I’m glad she does. I’m as hairy as they come (I know … TMI) and… Read more »
Dear KT, We have absolutely no control over each other by power of authority, that is true. The only control we have is by the power of example. I believe that it is only by setting an example of active listening, compassion, and authenticity that we can hope to get the same thing back. That being said, feel free to disagree with my beliefs. What you believe is what you believe and I respect that. At the end of the day, everyone wants to feel like their opinion matters and like they’re doing the right thing. If we want massive,… Read more »
This article is missing SO much….I can’t imagine what forums you’re reading where men ARE NOT the ones making the majority of the horribly violent and disgusting comments about women and hair removal….but, I guess since you won’t bother revealing the sources you observed, I guess I won’t bother believing your claims. Nonetheless, you didn’t come to any conclusions about hair, for which I am very disappointed, especially considering the misleading title of the piece. Instead, you went on a diatribe about how other feminists are big meanie-pants to men who voice legitimate concerns…and you do this by cherry picking… Read more »
KT, somewhere in your lengthy diatribe and insults is a point. Do you care to make it or are you just spewing sound and fury with no substance?
I’m not even going to bother taking it apart bit by bit. Because your are a perfect example as to why I don’t support feminism fully. Just the fact that you share the tent with egiltarians makes me want to avoid it like the plague.
That was VEEERRY persuasive. I LOOVE listening to an angry person scream at everybody to get across points/feelings that clearly could have been calmly explained. Maybe it is you that needs to get laid, just a thought, a friendly suggestion. Instead of pointing the finger at everybody else saying we are “crotchety turds who are just mad they can’t get laid” maybe look at the tone of your own post and take your own advice. get laid, stay calm, and be nice.
I will grant you that men are pressured to remove hair, but it is still not to the degree that women are. I’m sorry, but no argument could even compare. Even men who shave the areas they are “expected” to don’t shave EVERYTHING. Most of them still leave their arms and legs hairy. Pick up any magazine or porn DVD scene to validate my claims. I can’t be the only one that finds it funny that so much as mentioning how men have expectations put on them causes people to instantly go into the “It doesn’t matter who has it… Read more »
Author: “Just as the feminists I mention in the article are not listening, those who are dismissing feminists based on their lack of listening or any other behaviours are also not listening.” One who identified as a feminist here mentioned that women suffer from gender based violence and men suffer from gender based issues. That’s the equivilant of saying “There’s not such thing as male victims of violence or abuse. Only women can suffer from it.” Why should I listen to someone who dismisses what I went through in the past along with other men of similar circumstances? I’m tired… Read more »
Thank you for sharing your experiences, Eagle. I feel for you. It’s really hard to have one’s experiences diminished. I think you’re so brave and authentic for continuing to speak openly about them! I support you in that 100%. One of my favourite quotes, that I’ve used in a previous article is: Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. -Friedrich Nietzsche Essentially, you’re doing the right thing. You’re speaking about your experiences and, by doing that, are setting a wonderful example for people everywhere. I… Read more »
Vironika: “You ask why you should listen to someone who dismisses what you went through. I would never suggest for you to listen for the purpose of accepting their views and internalizing them. I would just suggest to not knock people down for their beliefs. They have them for a reason and, if those of us who believe something different can come together and spread our message, there’s a good chance that their beliefs will change. Let us seek to spread good in the world and have the bad fall away.” Recently, at work, I overheard a phone conversation between… Read more »
Thank you everyone for your comments. I feel like the discourse here has, ironically enough, steered in the same direction as the bloggers I refer to in the article but with a different target. In order for us to be able to talk openly about the rights and relationships of men and women, we need to be open to what others have to say. Just as the feminists I mention in the article are not listening, those who are dismissing feminists based on their lack of listening or any other behaviours are also not listening. Communication is, always, a two-way… Read more »
Iam a feminist, and I dont shave !! I think my armpits look sexier with a bit of hair in it, Life has show me that I live better when I please myself and non shaving my armpits or my legs or my pussy, really pleases me. If some men get annoy by it, thats on them, Im not here to be liked, Im here to like myself and I definitely like myself. Now MEN need to learn to ACCEPT US JUST THE WAY WE ARE instead of trying to change us for their pleasures, WE WOMEN ARE WHO WE… Read more »
More power to you. One just hopes that you celebrate men with really hairy backs and chests, furry feet and arms, and lengthy beards just as vocally! 😉
Would somebody bring my comment I made earlier back please? This is getting ridiculous.
The feminist movement is very diverse and there will be many who try to pass off hate speech as feminist literature. There are always going to be extreme hateful fundamentalist that attach themselves to a movement to justify the persecution of a group of people. While women suffer of gender-based violence (1 in 3 women are victim to gender-based violence) men also suffer from gender-based issues. e.g. stereotypes and a growing pressure to submit to fashion (which has historically been a feminine issue). there are always going to be ignorant people that neglect men e.g saying that rape is a… Read more »
…men also suffer from gender-based issues. e.g. stereotypes and a growing pressure to submit to fashion (which has historically been a feminine issue)… Men, herstory says fashion was historically feminine. That isnt accurate, clothes and fashion were a unisex marker of status, a statement of yr character, and were also a store of wealth. Poorer people kept up with fashion but were sometimes behind the fashion, as clothes being a store of wealth were reused, retailored and eventually sent to usedclothing traders (a good number of whom were women) Peasants in 14th ce england wore cloth that only slightly less… Read more »
well that escalated fast. I apologize. I was too broad, I did mean in relation to hair removal. I shall be very careful to specify the meaning of every word I write now. I have noticed a change in trend towards hair removal in my generation, I see MANY men waxing legs, chests, underarms and many other hairy places (facial hair is still stayed somewhat in style, as long as it is not overgrown, although moustaches have been a HUGE trend I have yet to see any one with a moustache it is more stickers and tattoos and decorations which… Read more »
well that escalated fast. I apologize. I was too broad, I did mean in relation to hair removal. I shall be very careful to specify the meaning of every word I write now. hey no worries, as youve clarified you were talking just about hair removal (your post makes more sense now i understand which lens you were looking through). Dont worry about being ‘very careful’, whether feminist or not most are pretty laidback here. well i think so. On a side note your fashion knowledge is fabulous. thanks, it was part of my reading over the last 3 or… Read more »
this went into the m zone, my last post spent 16hours in there. so hopefully this version gets posted –well that escalated fast. I apologize. I was too broad, I did mean in relation to hair removal. I shall be very careful to specify the meaning of every word I write now.– hey no worries, as youve clarified you were talking just about hair removal (your post makes more sense now i understand which lens you were looking through). Dont worry about being ‘very careful’, whether fe,mi,nnnist(altered to avoid the m zone) or not most are pretty laidback here. well… Read more »
this went into the m zone, my last post spent 16hours in there. -well that escalated fast. I apologize. I was too broad, I did mean in relation to hair removal. I shall be very careful to specify the meaning of every word I write now.- hey no worries, as youve clarified you were talking just about hair removal (your post makes more sense now i understand which lens you were looking through). Dont worry about being ‘very careful’, whether f-nist or not most are pretty laidback here. well i think so. -On a side note your fashion knowledge is… Read more »
Statements like “The feminist movement is diverse,” “feminism is a big umbrella,” there are different waves and streams of feminism,” etc are cliched and have no value whatsoever.The goals and policies of any organized movement are determined by its prominent leaders and leading organization and not by any lay person who claims to be a member of the movement. If the feminists in academia have included the hate speech in feminist literature then it is feminist literature and represents their own views. Trying to put yourself as an example of virtuous feminist would cut no ice since you do not… Read more »
Like any movement there are many branches of the same tree. For example; Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. Both for and apart of the civil rights movement but using VERY different methods and moving in slightly (*understatement*) different directions. The connection ALL (true) feminists have is their belief that women have the same worth/ should have the same legal status as their male counterparts. You will have Christian feminists who have very different views then a secular feminist (Pro-life vs. Pro choice. Abstinence vs. Sexual liberation. etc…) but they have at least one overlapping belief. What I was getting… Read more »
Frankly Adelaide, thats a good quality you have. The ability to use the brain despite the cultural and political conflicting message is a laudable thing. Actually thats the real independence. My personal opinion is there is nothing wrong in feminism per se, as a personal philosophy. But the real enemy of feminism is not the patriarchy. But the political and academic arm of feminism. If you pay attention people blame on feminism the various policy that has been done in the course of years that goes to benefit exclusively women or the politicization of womens issues. I know, everybody knows,… Read more »
Adelaide: ” While women suffer of gender-based violence (1 in 3 women are victim to gender-based violence)” According to the latest CDC stats, there is a significant percentage of male victims who have been subjected to sexual abuse. Plus the 1 in 3 stats have been disputed. Adelaide: “men also suffer from gender-based issues. e.g. stereotypes and a growing pressure to submit to fashion (which has historically been a feminine issue).” And this is what frustrates me about certain strands of feminist thought as well. The fact that you believe women suffer from gender based violence while men merely suffer… Read more »
Im sorry for using the wrong word. Of course I recognise sexual and domestic abuse happens to people not belonging to the female gender, it is an ISSUE (violence is an issue, I thought so anyway) ! I didn’t know that equality meant I had to use the exact same wording twice. I was only giving examples. Fashion is an issue, I work as a personal assistant at a kids salon, I have seen many a child traumatized by the experience, mainly boys. They have their beautiful long hair that they love, their mothers bring them in to shave all… Read more »
Adelaide: “I didn’t know that equality meant I had to use the exact same wording twice.” When you identify as a feminist for equality and yet only give ONE example slanted towards women’s issues, then it’s neccessary. There are feminists out there who claim to be for equality but only advocate women’s issues. Nothing wrong with advocating for women’s issues, but don’t call yourself for equality between both sexes when your brand goes only one way. Equality means for both sexes, not just women. Ergo, better you identify yourself as for women’s and men’s issues if you are for equality.… Read more »
Alright, comment taken on board. I do identify as for issues non-specific to the female gender, which was the point i was trying to get across. Just because i am a feminist doesn’t mean i am not as equally supportive/interested/concerned about issues (including sexual, emotional and every other kind of abuse) that face people of ALL genders. The reason i made a comment about the salon was not because i thought it the most important issue under the sun, i made the comment as an example of why fashion/expectations of the physical appearance is an issue. Of course there are… Read more »
Independence involves differentiating oneself from others, so that you are no longer materially or emotionally dependent upon or reactive to them. It involves recognizing that ‘I’ am distinct from ‘you’ and that neither represents an all-controlling perspective on the world. It involves owning one’s own agency and taking responsibility for oneself, one’s emotions, one’s reactions, one’s behaviours, and one’s destiny. It involves distinguishing oneself from and practicing receptivity to a realm that is other to oneself and to the voices that speak from such a realm. It involves recognizing that it isn’t all about you. I would question whether much… Read more »
Alastair, you have just enumerated every issue that I, an independent, forward-thinking woman, have with modern day feminism. We have all been victims of circumstance at some point in life — both men and women.
I have little tolerance for any ideology that encourages women to stay that way by choice.
“A lot of the time, whenever someone speaks out for the possibility that men could be harmed by the rather casually unintentional aggressiveness of feminism, the retort is something like “And what do you suggest, we start cooking and cleaning for them again? We lie down and give up our rights to voting, abortion, and equal pay? You must be joking.”” There are a lot of things wrong with “feminism”, this one in particular is annoying. Feminists seem to believe that criticizing feminism, or even a particular feminist, means you must disagree with absolutely everything about feminism. The same way… Read more »
I just looked at your website and saw your interest in authenticity and autehntic interaction. You might find these interesting:
http://www.authenticmanprogram.com/
http://www.authenticwomanexperience.com/
“This is progress from where we were 40 years ago”
Happiness studies show women are significantly LESS happy now than 40 years ago.
“casually unintentional aggressiveness of feminism”
Feminists have intentionally tried to make women as angry at men as possible and haven`t even tried to hide it.
I’m in my 50s and it still amazes me how much political significance people attach to hair and hair length, whether on one’s head or anywhere else. I thought this was all moot forty years ago.
A lot of the time, whenever someone speaks out for the possibility that men could be harmed by the rather casually unintentional aggressiveness of feminism, the retort is something like “And what do you suggest, we start cooking and cleaning for them again? We lie down and give up our rights to voting, abortion, and equal pay? You must be joking.” I agree. That would be a joke. Reverting to the dependence stage after independence would be ridiculous. But what about interdependence? What about working together? Here’s the thing though. That reaction is at best an over the top reaction… Read more »
Hit submit too soon. At those points, we can remain “I” and “I” or work to become a “we.” The difference, of course, is that “I” can only fight for “me” and likely against “you.” “We” can fight for “us.” It reminds me of a Swedish proverb I absolutely love: “Shared joy is a double joy; shared sorrow is half a sorrow.” I think the reason it’s so hard to become “we” is because the “me”s and “I”s are arguing over whose fault it is that they have not formed the “we” yet. As in “It’s YOUR fault that we… Read more »
“A lot of feminists love to go on about how men rush into women’s spaces with such “nonsense”, “derailing”, and of course “mansplaining”. What they like to leave out is the fact that they made some statement or declaration and those guys that rush in aren’t trying to put women down or silence women but are actually challenging some nonsense that was said in the first place.” Yes I agree, I dare to say all the intervention from men on women site is to correct the often nonsense typed in those places (and viceversa women in mens spaces). Who if… Read more »
I forgot to add, but this is not unique to feminism. Is actually a general behavior from all political and religious groups and orgs. It is easier to antagonize somebody and organize to fight a abstract enemy (patriarchy, capitalism, satan, sin ect) rather than look inside first and then the world around and finding some real solutions. This also leads me to somewhere else. The meme that women prefer to talk about a problem, while men prefer to fix a problem. I dont know how much truth is in this stereotype. But if real that may explain to a certan… Read more »
aaaarg the rest of my message is in moderation. Please be patient people. :-)))))
i have two posts in there, theyve been in for twelve hours now