Some guys complain that women won’t do things that men want, sexually. Or worse, they aren’t into sex, at all.
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Originally posted April 28, 2014 by BroadBlogs
Some guys complain that women won’t do things that men want, sexually. Or worse, they aren’t into sex, at all.
They grumble after I’ve written something like this:
A woman explains, “A lot of guys have come to expect the ‘Porn-Star Experience’ … A few women might enjoy it, but for most it’s harrowing.”
Or,
Robert Jensen, a professor and feminist who speaks on pornography says women frequently ask whether they should fulfill their guys’ disturbing requests, whether, “ejaculating on her face, anal sex, a threesome, rough sex or role-playing that feels inauthentic to her. His response? Women are under no obligation to participate in any sexual activity that causes pain, discomfort or distress.
But no, say some guys. Women should agree to excruciating sex because love and loyalty are found on the other side.
If you “debase” yourself in the bedroom, you may well find yourself on a pedestal and treated like a princess out of the bedroom… Sorry girls, but if you don’t want to be treated like a walking vagina, you will probably have to, counter-intuitively, make yourself to be a walking vagina… You will destroy your relationship with your man unless you overcome (your revulsion).
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That, from a man whose wife left him.
Another guy insists:
It freaks men out when you act like a porn star at the beginning and then slowly become more inhibited and prude… A woman that is willing to explore her sexual boundaries and becomes more sexually adventurous throughout the course of the relationship will never be abandoned on cheated on by a man. TRY IT! YOU WILL SEE.
Even a marriage counselor blogged that feminists ruin marriages by saying women shouldn’t have to do anything sexually that they don’t want to do.
I asked this guy why he didn’t help men to help their partners enjoy sex, instead of insisting women do things they find hurtful or repulsive. If everyone’s enjoying it, then everyone wins.
Other men take a different route and get far better results.
“Demon Ted,” one of my male students, wrote a post called, “Porn Fantasy Mistaken for Reality.” To paraphrase:
My girlfriend told me she’d do a threesome if I wanted. I told her to never suggest anything that makes her uncomfortable or unhappy. As we talked she blurted out a long list of things her ex had done, sexually, that she didn’t like. When she was finished I was upset that she had let someone treat her like trash. I was unhappy that she had come to believe she must do things she hated for a relationship to “work.”
Demon Ted took a very different approach and is very happy in his relationship.
In her research, Naomi Wolf learned that, physiologically, women must be relaxed and free from bad stress to get into sex. And they often need romance, and a strong feeling of connection. So bring your lady flowers, take her dancing, lie in each other’s arms and tell her she’s beautiful. Create emotional connection. That works way better than harping on never getting any. That’s all bad energy.
Yet some whine, “She expects flowers?”
Really? You want anal, but buying flowers is just too much trouble?
Truly, sex doesn’t have to be gross for one partner to be amazing for the other. And if it’s gross for her, it’s only a matter of time before she loses interest, entirely.
Therapist, Scott Williams, advises men: Forget your own orgasm and you’ll get amazing sex.
Why would that be?
Women’s sexuality is far more repressed then men’s in our society. So men typically have a higher sex drive and want it more. And whoever wants it more is going to have to make a bigger effort to get it. So if “he” focuses on “her” orgasm, they will both have a pretty great time. She will be more interested in sex. And she just might end up being more interested in experimenting, too.
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Image credit: AimeePlesa/flickr
In Japan there is a growing movement of “grass eating” men who are walking away from marriage and relationships because they simply see no benefit in it. They don’t want to conform to the expectations of others, or to impose their will on anyone else. This is another form of MGTOW. Expecting things from other people almost always leads to disappointment. If any relationship becomes more trouble than it is worth, then it’s time to walk away and reevaluate.
Aren’t there also way more men in Japan than women? Or am I mixing that up with China?
This may not be PC but learning to care about, think about the needs of someone else, and be in a relationship with another human person simply makes you a better person.
Both China and Japan have move male persons than female persons, but the problem is much more conspicuous and serious in China. Due to its large population, even small percentage points of demographic difference can add up to a disparity of tens of millions. The “one child” policy and the cultural preference for male children obviously exacerbated the problem. http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/14/opinion/china-challenges-one-child-brooks/ It is getting to the point where Chinese males are importing and trafficking refugee females in droves. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/china/China-fears-rising-bride-imports-due-to-imbalance-in-sex-ratio/articleshow/9771215.cms This may not be PC but learning to care about, think about the needs of someone else, and be in a relationship… Read more »
It’s not a matter of someone being “worse” than someone else. You’re taking my statement to mean,”…makes you a better person *over* and in *comparison to other people.”. When all I’m saying that “It makes you a better person.” (PERIOD) I’ll explain it this way. Have you ever had a life experience that you knew made you a better person? It gave you an insight or a set of skills you may not otherwise had? Did that experience have you believing you were actually a better person then other people who didn’t have the same experience as you? My guess… Read more »
It’s not a matter of someone being “worse” than someone else. You’re taking my statement to mean,”…makes you a better person *over* and in *comparison to other people.” Then you should not have used the term “better.” The term “better” requires comparison and ranking between one thing and another and suggests that something is in some way superior to the other thing. It makes no sense to call something “better” without suggesting or implying something or some condition that is “not better” or “worse.” If I say “those dissection classes made her a better surgeon,” it would suggest that prior… Read more »
Megalodon, you’re previous argument was not about someone’s personal accomplishments making them better at an assigned job or task. You insisted that my use of “better” implied I was saying an individual was superior to another. “Better” and “superior” are not mutually exclusive. Saying that the surgeon is a better surgeon because of the classes she took is not even in the same ballpark as implying that she is automatically superior and of more worth as a human being then someone who picks up garbage for a living and who didn’t take those same classes. Our life experiences help us… Read more »
Megalodon, you’re previous argument was not about someone’s personal accomplishments making them better at an assigned job or task. That aspect is irrelevant to me because I do not think the import of the word “better” varies depending upon whether one is describing a person’s technical abilities or describing a person’s inherent worth and nature. The term “better” still implies a hierarchical and ranking comparison. And it is not as if engaging in jobs and tasks is entirely distinct from your conception of a “better” person. You yourself said that persons who are in relationships become “better” at certain deeds… Read more »
“That aspect is irrelevant to me because I do not think the import of the word “better” varies depending upon whether one is describing a person’s technical abilities or describing a person’s inherent worth and nature.” But I do and it’s not irrelevant to me. I see a wealth of difference between describing one’s technical abilities and describing one’s inherent worth as a human being. “Superior” is one word used as a synonym of “better”. But other words are used too. Such as “Improved”, “More skillful”, “more effective”, “recovered”, “well” and “partly or fully recovered from illness”. All of these… Read more »
“Superior” is one word used as a synonym of “better”. But other words are used too. Such as “Improved”, “More skillful”, “more effective”, “recovered”, “well” and “partly or fully recovered from illness” Yes, and all of the examples you provided suggest and imply a ranking and hierarchy between different things and conditions. The word “improved” suggests that something has now changed and become greater and superior compared to what it used to be, and that before the thing “improved,” it was in an inferior and less favorable condition. “More skillful” means that there is or was something that was “less… Read more »
By whose standards? Yours? No one “owes” another person anything besides simple common courtesy.
Read my response to Megladon. I think it’s pretty rationale.
Thanks.
Why can’t men understand that their sexual enjoyment will improve if they wouldn’t treat sex as nothing more than the end result? Most men have been notoriously selfish in the bedroom and instead of being critical of their partner and complaining that they don’t get it enough, would just look at themselves and how they approach the sex act and their partner. It’s easy and an excuse to blame the woman for an unsatisfactory sex life. Foreplay isn’t about squeezing her breasts a few times or jamming your fingers into her vagina. Foreplay is a decision to treat your partner… Read more »
“Most men have been notoriously selfish in the bedroom”
Citation frigging needed.
I am personally not that much into romance and I do not need a deep connection to enjoy sex. However, negative stress is bothering me and I guess it is the same for men. Unfortunately, due to differences in strength, bad experiences and socialization women tend to feel more vulnerable than men in these situations than men and it is more likely that they experience negative stress. I do not condemn the sexual activities mentioned here. I might even find some of them pleasant. What I don’t get however is why the relationship should get better if I force myself… Read more »
Some women do like to experience pain. My friend showed me pictures of her buttocks raw red as that gets her off with the spanking and I thought….NOOOOOO for me. I like pleasure only but not everyone likes the same stuff. The key is to only do what you both like, don’t force someone to do it if they don’t want to.
Oh sure. If somebody likes pain this is perfectly fine. I just don’t like the idea that all women should enjoy pain or at least not mind. But if she likes it, there is no problem. But you are right, the key is to do what both like and not to force somebody to do things they don’t want. I really think one should talk openly, but without pushing it. I just don’t like men that start to discuss and try to convince me. We can talk about it, but if I feel bad about something all the arguments in… Read more »
Oh, by the way. this article was about what to do when women don’t want to do certain things. It would have been interesting to read more about what to do if women aren’t into sex at all. I guess the chances that she is not into it are higher if a men behaves like some of the men described in the post. But some people – men and women – just have lower libido than others. I think this is quite a difficult issue. On the one hand it is not very fullfilling to have much less sex than… Read more »
As an aging feminist, I am appalled by this article. Ladies, if your partner thinks that you owe him a particular sexual experience with no concern for your comfort or desires – run. Run fast and run far, there are plenty of good guys out there, don’t waste yourself on a complete douche. Gentlemen, if your partner thinks that you should forget about your pleasure and take care of her – run. There are lovely, caring women out there, don’t settle for a selfish witch. Many years ago, I became involved with a dear young man who happened to have… Read more »
Being that my wife and I were virgins when we got married, we didn’t like calling it “sex” so we made up a name for it. We would call it “doing laundry” which worked out well because we could be out and one turn to the other and say “let’s go home and do laundry.” One night while in bed, I asked her if she wanted to do laundry? She said she was too tired. About a half an hour later she rolled over and apologized it that it was the first time she said no, that she wanted to… Read more »
Hahahahah that’s awesome.
lololol
Hey just one simple thing here…in line with what Dan is trying to say. You should neither completely focus on the other person or yourself while having sex. It is actually the case that if you are completely selfless, completely concentrating on giving the other person an orgasm or pleasure, it often doesn’t work and they aren’t pleasured. Why?? Because you are not there, you are not in the moment, feeling the vibe with your partner. You are in a mental mode of “getting it done.” It is a task and a goal, not a shared experience. Sex with another… Read more »
We don’t come into relationships knowing how to be perfect people. Especially sexually. I have engaged in things that I didn’t always want to because my partner wanted to. I wanted to be his fantasy and live up to the fantasy because I knew that when I wasn’t around, he was looking at all these other girls that I was visually having to compete against. You here ultimatums about these kinds of things, “If you don’t do it, he will get it elsewhere.” I was too young and inexperienced to know what lines to draw. I didn’t have the communication… Read more »
Porn is not reality. And those women, screaming their heads off though they might be, are getting paid to sound like they are getting off. I’m not anti porn, but it does a great disservice to the men and boys who think that it is any indication of how to have great sex with a real woman. And a great disservice to the young girls and women who think that it an indication of what they should like and want before they have enough good real sex to figure it out for themselves….
Totally. It’s not reality. However, it doesn’t stop people from asking their partners to mimic the things they see in porn. It also doesn’t stop people from being turned on by pornography itself simply by knowing it’s not reality. Have you ever seen a really cheezy horror movie that made you laugh and roll your eyes more then it terrified you? It failed to trick your brain into the possibility of that situation happening. It didn’t spark the fear it was trying to spark. Porn tricks people’s brains into thinking the possibility of it happening is real enough to spark… Read more »
Not all persons view or consume pornography with the expectation or hope that their reality is going to simulate and approximate the things that they view. In fact, reality is probably never going to simulate or approximately any of the media people consumer, pornographic or otherwise, whether it is films, video games, novels, poetry, Shakespeare, etc.
I am not talking about “everyone”, but I am concerned with the younger people who think porn (which most boys start watching in late grade school these days)*is* real, and that the attitude that women are primarily only sex playthings is becoming deeply ingrained for some of them. The fact that woman are real people with desires that are not well represented isn’t getting communicated to them through the older men in their life. If you listen to the young women having their first sexual experiences with these young men, you would know it is actually a problem for many.… Read more »
They will have to do some kind of statistical study about what percentage of first sexual experiences involve attempted simulation or reenactment of standard recognized pornographic acts. The fact that woman are real people with desires that are not well represented isn’t getting communicated to them through the older men in their life. Perhaps. But perhaps there aren’t as many “older men in their life” who are present or available to act as sexual mentors. But then again, is there any reason to assume that “older men” are necessarily any more virtuous in the matters of sexual morality? Are they… Read more »
Yep, I guess I would hope that as young people have experiences with real people of the opposite gender they want to share sexuality in such a way that is not as one sided as most porn. And that young women learn to ask for what they want as they are equally entitled to sexual pleasure. I don’t nearly as many young women who want to have their faces cummed on as men who think that looks like the thing to do since they’ve seen it a million times.
Hope springs eternal.
But I am waiting to see if pornography use starts becoming the predominant and primary form of sexual activity for people (or male people at least). Maybe pornography users will be declared as a sexual orientation unto themselves.
Megalodon, actually, lots of men watch pornography with the hope and expectations that their reality will simulate what they are watching. Hence the cliche “Honey, lets do this thing I saw in porn”. Or men encouraging their partners to watch porn with them. This is the exact reason I’ve shared a bit of my personal experiences here to showcase a piece of it. My experiences are more common than you care to talk about. Men have let porn shape their sexuality. What I find interesting is that instead of talking to me about my experiences, you were quick to jump… Read more »
Megalodon, actually, lots of men watch pornography with the hope and expectations that their reality will simulate what they are watching. I specifically said “Not all persons view or consume pornography with the expectation or hope that their reality is going to simulate and approximate the things that they view.” Maybe a lot of male persons nurse that hope. Does that add up to majority of pornography users having that expectation? I do not know. Like I said, I hope they do a statistical study to analyze what percentage of active pornography users try to impose and enact their pornographic… Read more »
“It seems that for you, the only acceptable way to discuss pornography is for men to hang their heads in shame and admit and concede to everything you say and allege about pornography and its users. ”
Okay. Sounds good.
You may find that not at a lot of people are amenable to that condition, even on The Good Men Project. You may have better luck at a John Stoltenberg convention.
Hey-
Have any of you seen the film, “Don Jon?” I think it gets to the issues of consuming a lot of porn without coming off as a morality issue or couching the porn-addicted man as a loser or messed up in any way. It shows the way porn can undermine the human connection, and it does so in a sex-positive way. Check it out, a very well done film.
Megaladon: porn can be fun for a nite on your own or with a partner, but I wouldn’t think anyone, given the choice, would regularly choose a computer screen over a warm and excited human playmate? I guess that would look like de-evolution to me. I guess women would need to get in touch with their bi side and get together to make up for all the men at home with the fake boobed girls that are paid to get off on the small screen? And thanks for the movie advice,Ericka, I will check it out…
I wouldn’t think anyone, given the choice, would regularly choose a computer screen over a warm and excited human playmate? You assume that everyone is “given the choice.” Of course, it can be the case that persons become acclimated enough to pornography that they are no longer qualified or inclined to expend effort on attempting to copulate with another human. There are some places where human sexual interaction appears to be declining and losing ground to pornography and other simulated media as the preferred sexual activity, like Japan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrgCjeXrmD4 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/magazine/26FOB-2DLove-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDOvkJE6Gr4 I guess that would look like de-evolution to me.… Read more »
tldr: You have a tongue, use it. Problem solved.
Is that the same Robert Jensen who tried to transition from heterosexual to homosexual because he though that heterosexual activity was irredeemably oppressive and patriarchal, but then he tried to become celibate and impotent because he concluded that all of his sexual impulses were contaminated by patriarchal values?
I agree with the comments above that deride the emotional excesses found in the MRA movement. I get a lot from it, in terms of looking for parity between men and women, but avoid chewing on the broken glass which is found there. I could say the same thing for the feminist movement. There is a place beyond all the disconnects we’re seeing here (and over and over again, on GMP and all over the net) between men and women. It’s not an easy place to get to, and it requires a commitment to higher consciousness, however you name it.… Read more »
Soo many conflicting and interesting opinions. Man this site bums me out sometimes
Any woman that didn’t take my orgasm seriously would probably not be my girlfriend any longer. My orgasm is important, and if she values her orgasms then it is important too (as in I value what she wants). “And whoever wants it more is going to have to make a bigger effort to get it. So if “he” focuses on “her” orgasm, they will both have a pretty great time.” It needs to be a 2 way street. If she lies there like a starfish and doesn’t engage in the sex then her lack of orgasm is largely her own… Read more »
Even a marriage counselor blogged that feminists ruin marriages by saying women shouldn’t have to do anything sexually that they don’t want to do. No that alone isn’t doing the damage. What’s doing the damage is the thought that a woman should have to do anything sexual she doesn’t want to do and she owes a man no explanation while at the same time passing judgment on men won’t do something sexual that he doesn’t want to do. (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/08/08/dealbreaker-indeed/) (Take a look at this lovely comment near the end of that now closed thread: And I will say, as a… Read more »
I’d like all of these men to have to agree to anal sex with an object first before they keep trying to convince women to do it. It really pisses me off that so many men in particular are requesting women to do things they wouldn’t ever swap places to do themselves. Just because you’re in a relationship, the other person doesn’t owe you anything ‘Women should agree to excruciating sex because love and loyalty are found on the other side’ The link doesn’t work so I can’t read it but those men shouldn’t ever be in a relationship, firstly… Read more »
You’re dead on, thank you.
If anal sex is excruciating, you two are doing it wrong. Having been on both ends of the experience, I can honestly say that both end up feeling pretty good.
You can blame mainstream porn for the “anal sex is excruciating” line of thought. A fair amount of it focuses on manly men causing women pain (most porn does *not* encourage respect for women- and I say that as a person who is not anti-porn!) And you are right, if done correctly, it does indeed feel pretty good. However, it is not everyone’s thing and no one should have to do it if they don’t want to. As stated.
Selina – this exact scenario. Yes! And you know what? He agreed. And we both learned about new sexual boundaries. All of these men who watch anal porn, you have the same pleasure centers and the same sensitivities. So.. “man up” and play fair and she just might change her tune.
Works the same way for many things in bed and in life…
Does that count for oral too? Because there’s many a woman who demands to be licked but finds taking it in the mouth herself to be “gross”
In fact, feminists pretty much demand oral otherwise it means you hate women
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/08/08/dealbreaker-indeed/
With all due respect, one person’s opinion does not equate to “feminists believe”. It sounds pretty ridiculous. I would never say it means you hate women! You do have to understand that is the primary way some women orgasm so it could be pretty important to them. On the other hand, I was unaware there were many women who don’t do oral on men either.
Also, you talk about ‘entitlement’ feminism in the context of your wife/partner feeling ‘entitled’ to enjoying herself in bed (god forbid) in the same breath as you talk about how you’re entitled to do whatever the hell you want in order to feel good in bed. Are you kidding me? This is what feminism is all about – everybody being equals! If you don’t want to go down on your wife, don’t. If you’re going down on your wife so she’ll go down on you, don’t. For god’s sake, guys, nobody is entitled to have any kind of sex or… Read more »
Dan,
Are you saying that mutually sexual satisffaction is not a form of emotional connection?
Also, it’s a bit funny how these conversations always start with “make sure your girlfriend is satisfied” and “don’t expect/demand anything from her that you’re not ready to give her yourself”, only to land in “Give all you can, but don’t expect anything in return”.
But I guess THAT is what feminism really is all about?
Actually, I advocate for the opposite – do what you want to do to make her satisfied and let her do what she wants to do to make you satisfied. If what she wants to do to make you satisfied isn’t enough for you, then after an adult non-aggressive honest conversation you have to choose your relationship or your sexual needs. You find someone who’s into what you’re into or you accept how it is – both of you. Mutual sexual satisfaction is an excellent form of emotional connection, but if one of you doesn’t want to do what the… Read more »
nor consensual, for that matter.
@Dan,
I agree.
But I guess we read different articles then.
Loving the guys on here moaning about being pleasant to their partners in bed and not getting it back. If you don’t want to do it for the enjoyment of doing it, don’t do it. And if you’re pressuring your women into doing things they don’t want to do, that’s a little bit rapey (same as if they’re doing that to you, too). Have a conversation with your partners when sex is off the table, explain what it is you like and what she likes and if there’s no common ground then you have to decide what’s more important –… Read more »
Hi Dan
I just felt the need to honour your wisdom. My partner of 4 years and I are in the exact position of him having a far higher sex drive than my self and I know for my self if I give in when I am not fully ready then I am left feeling abused and he is not feeling ok with that. The bottom line is whats more important the relationship or sex.
Thanks for feeling brave enough to share, Heather. I doubt many people think about how damaging it is, for the now and for the future, to pressure their partner into sex. It’s not going to make them want it any more, and it’s only going to damage the future desire for sex by linking it to negative emotions for both partners.
” And if you’re pressuring your women into doing things they don’t want to do, that’s a little bit rapey (same as if they’re doing that to you, too)” Stop using the word rapey, it’s dilluting the impact of what rape is. Nagging a partner is not rape. Pressuring them by force is rape, pressuring them with blackmail, etc would be coercion, nagging would probably be sexual harassment but not rape. If they willfully choose to have sex then it’s not rape, it’s shitty to do, but still not rape or even remotely close to it. When I am nagged… Read more »
I’ll direct you to someone who covers this well: http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/01/coerced-consent-yes-means-no/all/1/
Loving the guys on here moaning about being pleasant to their partners in bed and not getting it back. If you don’t want to do it for the enjoyment of doing it, don’t do it. So if a man misled a woman into thinking he would form a relationship with her if she copulated with him, she should not complain or feel slighted when he discards her, because if she did not want to copulate just for the enjoyment of doing it, she should not have done it? Right? Anyway, a person may enjoy engaging in a certain activity in… Read more »
I don’t think you should have any kind of sex with someone because you want something. I also don’t think you should be deceptive in procuring sex. You should not assume anything, ever, especially in a relationship. If you want oral sex, you don’t have to give oral sex, you have to ask for oral sex and see what the response is, then deal with that response appropriately. What I’m saying is, you can’t do X because you want them to do X back to you, you do it purely because you want to do X. You can’t go ‘I… Read more »
I don’t think you should have any kind of sex with someone because you want something. That pronouncement probably renders about 90% of sexual interactions as immoral and dishonest. What about people who are copulating because they want to produce offspring? Does their hope of some subsequent consequence resulting from the copulation render their decision to have sex as bad, because they were not in it solely for the sex act itself? I also don’t think you should be deceptive in procuring sex. You should not assume anything, ever, especially in a relationship. Personally, I agree. Unfortunately, so much of… Read more »
So women never pursue sex just for the physical gratification of the act? They must always be in it for the sake of some conjugal, connubial bond?
Apologies – I missed the ‘just’ out. Everyone is a 3D sexual being with different wants and needs a different times.
Adding the word “just” does not seem to change anything. You’re still making an unqualified claim about the sexual proclivities of female persons. You think it is impossible or inconceivable that a female person might sometimes only be interested in physical gratification for a certain sexual encounter? You think female sexual interests must always involve the desire for some kind of emotional and psychological communion? Yes, everyone is a 3-dimensional being, and sometimes 3-dimensional beings (male or female) may just want a physical encounter without any connubial pretensions. This notion that all female persons always want and need some kind… Read more »
This notion that all female persons always want and need some kind of emotional, intimate attachment to accompany sexual activity just sounds like sentimental gender essentialism
and check mate.
an excellent series of posts megalodon
Apologies, that’s what I was trying to convey, not in a very eloquent way by saying that we are all three dimensional beings – that everyone has different facets and that sometimes everyone wants different things. I’m a woman, and I was making a sweeping statement in response to the very physical-act-led sweeping statements about men being made.
Did somebody in the thread suggest that men as a gender are only interested in the physical sexual acts and physical gratification?
I agree with the critique of “entitlement” feminism, myself, as well as the general decline of GMP. That said, nobody acknowledges that MRAs have a point because the MRA community completely undermines what legitimate criticisms they have pissing and moaning about how men are so much worse off than women. I don’t like it when sheltered women play the victim card, I like it even less from sheltered men oblivious to the fact that, men are not more oppressed than women worldwide (actual claim made to me by a self-professed MRA). As to the actual topic, the advice in the… Read more »
I agree with the critique of “entitlement” feminism, myself, as well as the general decline of GMP. That said, nobody acknowledges that MRAs have a point because the MRA community completely undermines what legitimate criticisms they have pissing and moaning about how men are so much worse off than women. I don’t like it when sheltered women play the victim card, I like it even less from sheltered men oblivious to the fact that, men are not more oppressed than women worldwide (actual claim made to me by a self-professed MRA). It depends on how you frame the issue, which… Read more »
In olden times, men believed there were two kinds of women: adventurous enjoy sex women and wife & mother women, who didn’t and weren’t. Nowadays men are figuring out that the two types of women are the same woman depending on which partner she is with. With the temporary or new guy she’s adventurous, but later loses interest with husband & dad. Old guys imagine that trust and comfort and experience and intimacy and even commitment will increase her willingness to please him and to enjoy pleasing him, but our modern hope for decades together bumps against her instinct to… Read more »
What is “The porn-star experience”? Is it to be turned down on every request to be given some oral, maybe on a ratio of 1:10 or 1:20 compared to what you self give? Then I’ve had it. Is it to have the woman more or less instinctevly and automatically turn down every intial initiative to have sex with a resounding “No!”, although she may frequently mean “I’ll think about it, ask me again in a while…”? Then I’ve had it. Is it to have the woman tell you “I’ll seduce you tonight…”, and then when nothing happens she’ll excuse herself… Read more »
I also express my deepest despice for the childish “man”-boys who have expressed the quoted opinions in the article.
But that doesn’t automatically mean that the polar opposite is true, that your sex ill be all roses and honey if you just put your every effort into satisfying your girlfriend.
It is a scandal to tell men to give pleasure, not just flowers once in a while-
-would your ego prefer if she said “Get it over with and pass the dildo, so I can finally get my rocks off”?
So how to deal with a woman who says, “Don’t touch me, I don’t want pleasure!” ?
Respect her boundaries, ask her about why (in a non-threatening environment), ask her if she’s willing to get help for whatever emotional or physical trauma has made her feel this way, make her feel safe, decide whether your relationship is more important than touching her, act on that decision.
And if he decides that he is not willing to continue the relationship without physical sexual acts and ends the relationship, would you respect that decision or would you condemn it as unfeeling and selfish?
Personally, I’d say he did the right thing, providing he did it with respect, care and honesty. Don’t be a martyr, no-one will be happy.
If sexual satisfaction is supposed to be an important thing in a relationship, then I would imagine there is nothing shameful or condemnable about one person ending the relationship if it no longer provides him/her sexual satisfaction. Then again, we have this notion that ending a relationship because one is not sexually satisfied is somehow callous and shallow. If a rich, privileged man divorces his spouse and marries some younger “trophy wife,” he is classified as a scoundrel or rake, a stock figure of contempt (though some male persons may envy his privilege). But if this rich man no longer… Read more »
I welcome toys in the bedroom, if it helps her then great. I’d be disappointed if I couldn’t do wonders for her like she’d do for me (I am easy to please) but if toys help then I’ll use them on her too. I want us to share in pleasure, not some weird one sided non-sense.
After ten years of doing everything I can to ensure she has the best possible experience in bed – foreplay lasting until she throws me on my back and takes me, I love performing oral for her and regularly give her more than one orgasm in an evening – she cheats on me.
Next time around I will be more selfish.
That’s really not fair to the next woman you’ll have an intimate relationship with. You’re going into that relationship with preconceived ideas about who you think she is because of who your ex was. The next woman isn’t the same person as the woman who cheated on you. She is an entirely seperate person and when you are really truly ready to be in a relatoinship again, she and YOU deserve for you to come into the relationship already persecuting her for what another woman did.
When persons think they were treated unfairly or unsatisfactorily, they sometimes change their behavior and standards to reduce the risk of being treated similarly in the future. That applies to all kinds of human interactions, not just conjugal or intimate ones. If an employer was robbed by a dishonest employee, the employer may decide to impose stricter scrutiny and security measures upon future employees. Is that unfair to the future employees? After all, the future employees are not the same person who embezzled from him. If a businessperson is defrauded or ripped off by a business partner, he may decide… Read more »
In reference to the above comment, which seems to be on the wrong post, I forgot my orgasms and frequently worship my wife in the bedroom for hours, resulting in copious amount of orgasms for her. The results after of 10 years and 3 children, a woman that’s turning to a prude, is selfish and self absorbed in the bedroom, as she’s so used to being doted on and paid attention to, but doesn’t return the favor unless prodded and then it’s a hassle
It started out as “equality” feminism, but has morphed into “entitlement” feminism. That’s why 75% of women and 85% of men in America refuse to identify themselves as “feminists” even though those same people are overwhelmingly in favor of women’s rights to equality, choice, etc. (This was a poll of 1000 people reported on in Huffpo, btw). “Entitlement” feminism is an unmitigated disaster, and needs to be called out and deconstructed again and again. For some reason though, you never see any articles doing that sort of deconstruction and critique in the GMP, even though there’s plenty of material to… Read more »
Paul’s comment on the other hand……wrong thread? Although I largely agree with it – you don’t seem AVfM content on here anymore because it was deleted. Can’t go around acknowledging MRAs have a point. There is nothing pro-MRA here – just mockery when the topic does come up.
Peronally I think we are much better off without Elam and mainstream MRAs. They see the problems alright most of the time, but walk completely in the wrong direction trying to solve them. Feminism is not the enemy, because all problems that plague men have been around much longer than feminism. I strongly believe that feminism can be an ally to men’s positive development. Of course you have to ignore the loud crazy minority of them that just hates. But there are crazies everywhere. We are fighting the same enemy. And anyway, GMP got rid of Schwyzer too, and that… Read more »
Peronally I think we are much better off without Elam and mainstream MRAs. In the long run I agree however I do think they did a lot of good for men by pushing a lot of issues that just weren’t getting notice and attention without them. Yes a lot of what they say is extreme but in terms of MRM growth they were a needed catalyst. And anyway, GMP got rid of Schwyzer too, and that is definitely a good thing. To my understanding Schwyzer left on his own rather that being gotten rid of and Amanda Marcotte left on… Read more »
Which brand of Feminism are we talking about here? If it’s the “all men are potential rapists and abusers”, then that attitude is the real enemy. What Feminists don’t realize is that the “equality” they were seeking was to be just as expendable as any man. Unless you are at the top of the pyramid like a politician or CEO you are just a small cog in a very big machine or cannon fodder for the next war. We just bought into the same lie, and have been fighting over it.
The “all men are potential rapists and abusers” faction are those which I termed the loud crazy minority. So I am not talking about them. I should hope that we (and feminists as well) are not fighting for a world where everybody is disposable, but for a world where nobody is. If they are a blind when it comes to men’s position in this (e.g. the grunts in the army), then that’s where we come in. This is our part of the fight. But all non-crazy feminists will support us in this; or at least not hinder it. Those that… Read more »
Peronally I think we are much better off without Elam and mainstream MRAs. They see the problems alright most of the time, but walk completely in the wrong direction trying to solve them. Feminism is not the enemy, because all problems that plague men have been around much longer than feminism. You seriously think they don’t know this? I have to wonder how much of AVfM you’ve actually *read*. They are against both traditional gender roles and feminism where it obstructs men’s rights. If you’re a feminist fighting for your issues, you have to fight traditional norms. If you’re a… Read more »
Reply button is right there; and no, it isn’t.
Don’t you dare tell any man his orgasm doesn’t matter – not least because if you dared do the same to a woman they would not be remotely so sanguine as you and the author of that piece expect men to be in response to such a statement.
Exactly so. I just stuck my generic critique of GMP here because it seems such a good particular example of what happens on this site all the time. And apparently, the editors here are simply clueless about their own unconscious misandry. It’s the human condition. The fish doesn’t recognize the water in which it swims. We don’t recognize our own unconscious, culturally driven biases until they’re pointed out to us…repeatedly. Fifty years ago, that included (arguably) the bias of the patriarchy. Women have been very vocal about that bias, and I think we are better for its being exposed. But… Read more »
Reply button is right there; and no, it isn’t.
Don’t you dare tell any man his orgasm doesn’t matter – not least because if you dared do the same to a woman they would not be remotely so sanguine as you and the author of that piece expect men to be in response to such a statement.
Dude, you’re going at her while expecting something, which isn’t the same as worshipping your wife in bed, she knows when you’re touching her that you’re expecting something back. Sex should be about everyone having a good time, so if you’re not enjoying doing something for the sake of doing it, then don’t do it. And don’t expect her to do stuff she doesn’t enjoy either. Don’t be a sex martyr.
See, the difference is this is actually sensible advice.
Telling someone “your orgasm doesn’t matter” is not. Nor is defending it a good idea.
men need to step it up and take back their rights as men. Not every woman can be a goddess….
With an article entitled “Men, Why Your Orgasm Doesn’t Matter”? Gee, thanks.
Irrespective of a guy’s failings in consideration of his female partner’s orgasm, it still does actually matter.
One can challenge these things without implying that the guy’s sexuality is less important, or that his preferences are “gross” – how utterly regressive!