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Feminism is a tricky word to nail down. As frequently as I find myself aligning my beliefs with men and women who eschew the label, I find myself meeting self-identified feminists with whom I share very little ideological ground. It’s a big, problematic, often contradictory tent.
Given the online company I keep, in the last few weeks I’ve read many a piece on whether or not there is a place for men in the leadership circles of the “Feminist Movement” (as if it were such a monolithic thing). Some very smart people think the answer is no. The extremists among them believe allowing men to affect the trajectory of feminist activism is nothing short of fraternizing with the enemy. Among the more moderate bunch, there is a very strong belief that the progress of women needs to be controlled exclusively by women; supportive men are welcome as foot soldiers, but should not exert influence. Ceding leadership positions that could be filled by females to even the most progressive men is viewed as fundamentally problematic for the upward mobility of women. On this issue, I disagree with both cohorts.
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There is a commonly cited comparison between men leading feminist battles on behalf of women, and white supporters leading Civil Rights battles on behalf of African Americans. Men and white people, respectively, are viewed as patronizing influences that undermine the very people they’re trying to assist. When it comes to race, I see the merit in this worldview. In the Civil Rights movement, white people are not advocating for their own advancement, so they inevitably end up having to speak for someone else, which leads to accusations of condescension.
To me, this is where the comparison falls apart. I don’t want men speaking for me, because I would find it patronizing if they assumed to know my experience. But, I do believe men have their own very real, very significant stake in equality between the sexes. They don’t have to speak on behalf of women to be involved; they can just speak for themselves.
My feminism (and like I said, it’s a big tent and I don’t speak for anyone but myself) is about abolishing heteronormative and sexist gender assumptions to allow people to reach their full potential, both inside and outside the workplace, as diversely talented, multi-faceted human beings. By my definition, men and women can both benefit from a feminist agenda.
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I believe our current societal structure oppresses women. I believe it’s significantly worse in other parts of the world, but even in the United States, I believe that women are often viewed and treated as emotionally ill-equipped people that require protection, prizes to be coveted, or objects to be used.
I do not believe our society oppresses men, but I do believe it restricts them. We see these restrictive views in commercials that portray fathers as inept idiots or emotionally stunted cavemen. We see them in laws that all but automatically grant custody to mothers, even when fathers are present and involved. We see them in pornography that shows teenaged boys that being manly means being aggressively and exclusively heterosexual. The Good Men Project attempts to expand our definitions of goodness and of masculinity, and the fact that we need such a forum only emphasizes how unfairly pigeonholed men really are.
The dichotomy that man equals provider and woman equals caregiver is damaging to both men and women. Historically, this dichotomy has done more and greater damage to women, since the sphere of female influence has been smaller and more tightly monitored than that of men. But, if we feminists want more and more equal access to the world beyond the home (which we do), part of that means breaking down the barriers to men’s involvement in the home. Some of those barriers are cultural relics (the emasculation of stay-at-home dads), and some of them are legal (how do we expect men to take an equal role in infant care when most companies don’t offer paternity leave?).
Progress towards creating a culture where women are full and complete members of every facet of society means enabling men to be full and complete members of every facet of society as well. I don’t want men standing up in feminist circles and beginning sentences with “Women feel like… “or “Women should always….” But I do want them in those circles speaking for themselves. I, for one, am very interested in what they have to say.
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Hi Mark, I figured I wouldn’t return to this because the most recent post before mine was from March. But, I’m glad to see that you took the time to respond. I’m not attacking men. I am one. My best friend is one. So’s my dad. There are tons of great guys out there. But, there are also a bunch of guys who have trouble seeing women as people with boundaries that need acknowledgment and respect, much like they themselves have. Much of what I am saying, and I should have made this clear, is about folks treating each other… Read more »
Okay, I just read some of the other posts, and most of those guys are exactly the folks that need a nice sit-down chat with a buddy who can help them put down some of their hang-ups (e.g. women are trying to brainwash me, women wanting to take all your stuff and leave you with no well-defined role and so on…). Great examples guys. Oh, one other thing, it sucks that that guy got beat up a ton by social workers when he was young. But, it’s certainly not hard to do a little research and find out that the… Read more »
A man’s involvement in feminism is most needed in speaking to other men, just like whites folks were most needed to influence other white folks in the civil right movement. Women want rights. There aren’t too many women out there who don’t want an equal piece of the pie. It’s us dudes’ turn to get in on spreading the good word to other guys that being nice to women is where it’s at. Most of the guys out there who have a hard time getting on board with that idea are a lot more likely hear that message if it… Read more »
“Sure the ‘where do we go from here?’ conversation will go on simultaneously and after we’ve straightened out us menfolks, but this is one area where the division of labour among the sexes makes sense.” The problem is actualy the assumption, by feminists like yourself, that menfolk don’t respect women and put their needs on par with their own, or that think us “menfolks” need to be “straightened out”. Perhaps if you could stop projecting malice onto us long enough to take an honest look, you’d realize the problem isn’t men (not women ether). The problem is the preconceptions that… Read more »
I will find no truce with feminism until its adherents see fit to acknowledge the harm they have done and to make reparations for that harm. The characterizations presented in this article are childish and spiteful, reeking of stale rhetoric and designed to silence opposing viewpoints, especially the male viewpoints it claims to invite, rather than fostering discussion. As a male victim of systemic child abuse by women (unlike most feminists, I can use the word “systemic” correctly. In this case the abuse was perpetrated over a period of more than ten years by social workers in the employ of… Read more »
You are so right!
To those that claim feminism should include men, that it is not about male bashing, I look forward to seeing a response to:
https://goodmenproject.com/men-and-feminism/toward-equality-for-everyone-a-response-to-the-end-of-feminism-as-i-knew-it/comment-page-3/#comment-116459
and
https://goodmenproject.com/men-and-feminism/toward-equality-for-everyone-a-response-to-the-end-of-feminism-as-i-knew-it/comment-page-3/#comment-116768
I think I’m the only feminist left commenting on this article. lol.
And I think my reply would be pretty obvious…le sigh. (not at you, but at those comments). That is precisely the kind of rhetoric I’m against.
Nope, I keep checking in and continue to be amazed by the amount of comments this article generated.
And yet, Jasmine defended the views of Judy. She presumed they were coming from a place of balance, equality, and justified her words based on the presumption, but as you could see, it was not a place of balance. when those claiming to be about equality wil still stand behind (or in front of, shielding) those with this type of rhetoric, it becomes very difficult to tell one type of feminism from the next. Please understand, this is why so many are hard pressed to accept claims of being egalitarian feminists from people such as yourself, because others doing the… Read more »
Mark, you have here explained far better than I have the point I was inarticulately trying to make to Jasmine, except I didn’t have a specific example involving her to point out.
“You have noted a few times that you don’t understand why you encounter such hostility despite claiming to be egalitarian.” Ah. It may have sounded like I don’t understand why…but I do, at least on a cerebral level. I do comprehend – it’s all well and good for someone to say ‘no I don’t think men are evil,’ but then when that same person defends a comment made by someone who essentially said ‘men are evil,’ it’s difficult to trust what anyone says. I get ya. But here’s where my pie-in-the-sky attitude comes back – I hope we can figure… Read more »
“Actual egalitarian feminists need to call out radical feminists when they say such harmful and hateful things. And the MRM needs to be able to recognize that not all egalitarian feminists are such enablers.”
And you don’t see the later as being a potential result of the former, when talking short term/achievable goals? why must these both be done simultaneously, or the MRM make the first move (IE, to accept, based on nothing but your words and the promise of actions not yet taken, your claims to egalitarianism (and by “your” I mean egal feminism, not you specifically))?
I do see the latter as being a result of the former, yes. But just because it’s the result, doesn’t mean it’s not problematic. Because…when I get called out for being a feminist (in any sense of the term), and when I get told by someone that they don’t actually believe I’m an egalitarian feminist…that makes me want to circle the wagons, it makes me feel a bit defensive. Just like, I’m sure when someone who takes on the label of egalitarian feminist defends someone who says such harmful things, it probably makes you feel like battening down the hatches,… Read more »
When you claim to be egalitarian, which means supporter of equality for all, the what is the purpose of adding the term feminist to it???
Because I personally have focused on women’s issues. So egalitarian (I believe in equality) feminist (I focus on women’s issues)…not to the exclusion of men’s issues, and not to say that men’s issues are less important…but that’s just where my focus is.
I suppose to be more accurate I could call myself an egalitarian, centrist, feminist, lgbt-rights advocate, sex-positive person. But seeing as we’re talking about gender here, I’m simply shortening it to egalitarian feminist.
My objection to the term “egalitarian feminism” is that you cannot play for a team (feminism) and be the referee (egalitarian) at the same time. I hope you know the term “conflict of interests.”
Heather’s acknowledged that here definition of egalitarian feminism is equality for all, but a focus on women and support for the need for the MRM (though the hostility she experiences makes this part difficult). Unlike many other egal feminists who feel the MRM should be subsumed into feminism, she believes there is a place for the MRM, not within feminism, but within the gender discussion, alongside egal feminsm. At least, this is how I understand her position.
When feminism and MRM are most often on the collision course, then using the term egalitarian feminism seems more like a Trojan horse.
and this is clearly where you missed the bulk of the discussion. There are two types of feminism, most fit into the feminism you’re speaking of (gynocentrism), some use the egal fem term like a shield (or as you put it, a Trojan horse), but some, like Christina Hoff Sommers, actually do promote the beliefs in equality they espouse.
Yeah Mark, that’s pretty much my position, thanks 🙂
I’m more apt to go with the Trojan horse idea … not at all saying the Heather herself has any ulterior motive but this “come to our camp and let’s talk” is, in my view a Trojan horse. Nonetheless Heather, you said it yourself, your focus has been on women’s rights and that’s what the feminists have and continued to do. No true interest in leveling the playing field. And I can honestly tell you, real MRM’s though there are a few fringe groups that don’t fit the mold, men are simply interested in getting back what they have lost,… Read more »
This quote was recently posted on one of the groups I’m part of. I assure you that it wasn’t prompted by me or anyone … “When you love a woman, you love the smell of her hair, the taste of her neck, hearing her voice and feeling her soul. By Steven Iavarone” And the gentleman that posted it is VERY active in men’s rights, more specifically, fathers rights. Does this sound as though the is anger toward women? Many are assuming that MRM’s are all about anger and revenge, they aren’t !!
I don’t think MRMs are about anger and revenge on women (though I have seen that in a couple people). I think a lot of the rhetoric and discussion I have seen shows anger toward feminists. Not all women…but toward feminists. And I’ve already discussed why I think this is problematic.
@Mark Goblowsky – I think a lot of the problems in our dialogues are about the period of time we’re talking about. I treat this article as something that calls for a change in the future of feminism. I see it as someone who acknowledges some of the failings of feminism (although she uses problematic terms), and is saying it’s time to change that. I think either MRAs or feminists ignoring each other isn’t an ideal solution either…working together would be best. Which, I’d like to highlight that I’m not suggesting that it’s likely to happen…I’m just saying that it… Read more »
“I think either MRAs or feminists ignoring each other isn’t an ideal solution either” Perhaps not the ideal, but for the moment, it is likely the best we can do. There is too much hostility on both sides. If the MRM could be left alone to establish itself and do what they felt was needed, without the constant shaming and attacks, possibly even with the occassional support, it would go a long way towards bridging that gaps. but so long as feminism attacks the MRM, the MRA’s will point out how damaging the political feminists have been as a counter.… Read more »
“I prefer to deal in acheivable goals, and adapt and adjust my goals as things change.” I’m more of a…have pie-in-the-sky goals, and then create achievable goals as stepping stones to that ideal. But always keep that ideal in the back of your mind, or else you might forget the point of it all. Just different world views and personalities, I suppose. “I don’t see so much railing.” – well this is an oldie but a goodie…women’s right to vote wasn’t exactly helped along by traditional gender norms. The narrative at the time was that politics was too rough and… Read more »
Re: pie-in-the-sky… I just find it more difficult to adapt to changing circumstances when I reach too far ahead. But as you say, this is just personal preference. “women’s right to vote wasn’t exactly helped along by traditional gender norms.” Lack of support is not the same as opposition. railing against something is opposition. Strong opposition. My point was that, with the exception of combat, when feminists goals didn’t line up with patriarchal values, the worst that happened was it canceled out the patriarchal drive to support and help women, leaving apathy, not railing against. the only exception being military… Read more »
“Lack of support is not the same as opposition.” – True. My use of the term ‘railing against’ is problematic. I know there was opposition to the idea, but I don’t know how much of it was an organized opposition. Anyway…the point still stands that there are multiple aspects of feminism that aren’t in line with traditional gender norms. Exactly how much they deviate is a variable. (And yes there are also aspects that are in line with traditional norms, such as gender-based protection against domestic violence). “What happened to that pie-in-the-sky and what should be/what is ideal attitude?” –… Read more »
“Nice. I mentioned having more grounded goals as a stepping stone…and this is sort of where I think that fits.” Sorry. just needed to point out consistency helps in discussion. When you are always looking from an ideal “should be” perspective, suddenly switching to a more practical, achievable goal (without clarification) causes problems. “except for the problem that often a feminist who actually uses that label feels extremely unwelcome when trying to approach the MRM” Except there is no need to approach or get approval from MRA’s to speak down of the radicals and gynocentrist. It shouldn’t matter what the… Read more »
“Sorry. just needed to point out consistency helps in discussion.” – I didn’t mean that ‘nice,’ sarcastically…I meant it genuinely. As in, nice catch…cuz yeah the use of language is important, and I sometimes fall into the trap of not being clear or specific enough. Well the reason I didn’t comment on Judy’s comment is because I didn’t read it until you provided the link. I didn’t ‘let it slide,’ so much as I just didn’t see it. And I’m not saying the MRM needs to be welcoming, exactly…I mean I’m not expecting a parade and a welcome wagon. I’m… Read more »
“And as for why some of us egalitarian feminists would like a less adversarial relationship with the MRM…well because working together achieves more. ” It most certainly would, but again, small steps vs pie in the sky. But I need to point out again, Speaking out against the radical viewpoints isn’t about supporting the MRM, it is about helping to repair feminists reputation, so that people (not just MRA’s, but including MRAs) are less hostile. “That’s the main thrust of this article…let’s work together.” But as even you acknowledge, it is a “lets work together under my authority”. Quite a… Read more »
“But you’re not defending the ideas of the MRA, you’re defending the ideas of your own egalitarian feminism.” No right…but I’m just saying I’d like to be able to point to different parts of the MRM and be like – yeah I support this too. Because, particularly with domestic violence and the definition of rape…I am very much on the side of the MRM. Being an egal feminist and supporting the MRM are two different things…but it’s like…maybe there are egal feminists out there who would call out more radical feminists on their crap if they thought it was worth… Read more »
“maybe there are egal feminists out there who would call out more radical feminists on their crap if they thought it was worth it.” This is where I’m getting stuck, why do you need MRM approval for this to be worth it? Wouldn’t promoting a more balanced, equal outlook, that helps both men and women, make it worth it? wouldn’t combating the very real negative views of feminism, and making crystal clear that not all feminists are like that, to the general populace, to the politicians and to the media… wouldn’t that make it worth it? Wouldn’t preventing harmful policies… Read more »
“This is where I’m getting stuck, why do you need MRM approval for this to be worth it?” Alrighty lemme take a step back because I’m beginning to say things that are being read in ways I don’t mean. Maybe it’s because I keep replying so early in the morning for me (its 4:30am now lol). Okay so we have been focusing on egal feminists calling out radical feminists, and I’m trying to say that for an egalitarian feminist to do that sort of on his/her own is a bit daunting. If you think that the only option you have… Read more »
@Heather <— cool, I just figured that out. So, you really don't know anything about MRM's? In some of the groups I'm in, we can smell a feminist a mile away and accordingly, will more then likely put them on blast. The smallest hint that someone may be of the feminist persuasion, tghe red flag is thrown. If I look at many of the things you've said, and this is not to offend, you would appear to be a feminist. The fact that you have such astrong opinion and view of what an MRM is, without actually knowing them, draws… Read more »
Mate, I only ever am talking about things from my perspective. I apologize if I don’t always put in “from my experience with MRMs…” but that is always what I mean. From my experience and from the experience of other people I know with regard to MRMs…that is where I draw my conclusions. I’m not claiming to be an expert, I’m just discussing what I’ve observed and what I’ve discussed with other people. “The smallest hint that someone may be of the feminist persuasion, the red flag is thrown” – which is exactly in line with my experience with MRMs.… Read more »
Re: 2nd paragraph. that was my same experience with the feminist movement. Except the reason for hostility against me was due to how I was born.
“But at the same time, I’m reading all sorts of generalizations about feminism that aren’t entirely accurate either.”
Not entirely accurate, or just not applicable to 100% of the feminist population? there is a distinct difference. Because, to be honest, I’ve seen a lot of generalizations about feminism from feminists that are also not applicable to a great measure of the feminist population.
“That was my same experience with the feminist movement. Except the reason for hostility against me was due to how I was born.” – yeah and for me it was because of a perceived ideology that I do not actually espouse. My point is that hostility based on assumptions is bad all around. “Not entirely accurate, or just not applicable to 100% of the feminist population?” Well I don’t know all feminists. 😉 But in my experience, the more hardcore political groups do not actually represent the feminism of the majority of the people I talk to. Now, I dunno…maybe… Read more »
“Well I don’t know all feminists. But in my experience, the more hardcore political groups do not actually represent the feminism of the majority of the people I talk to…..” this largely sounds like you’re saying “it’s not 100% applicable”, as opposed to actually being inaccurate. This is an important distinction. Furthermore, even you admit that the “radical” feminism is still politically “roaring” and doing plenty, to which many of the criticisms are accurate. So most peoples views of feminism will be formed by those politically active radical feminists. More importantly, it is those feminists who are shaping the laws… Read more »
“Furthermore, even you admit that the “radical” feminism is still politically “roaring” and doing plenty, to which many of the criticisms are accurate.” I just think it’s important to make direct these criticisms toward those who are actually causing the problems. When I hear about how all feminists are doing such-and-such…or about how feminism as an idea has cause this or that problem, it makes me less likely to want to hear the rest of what is being said. Now if I hear about how political feminists have cause a problem, or about how radical feminists have caused a problem…well… Read more »
“When I hear about how all feminists are doing such-and-such” Are you sure it’s not you sometimes adding the word “all” into the equation (I see this far too often). Sometimes yes, but more often than not, i see generalizations stating feminists are doing such and such…. if even a few femnists are in fact doing such and such, the statement is not wrong, and to inject “all” into it so you can feel justified in defending against it only places yourself as a shield for those very feminists doing that act. you end up putting yourself between them and… Read more »
“Are you sure it’s not you sometimes adding the word “all” into the equation (I see this far too often).” This is a case where it’s all about the interpretation of the words being said. Because even if the word ‘all’ isn’t used it can be implied. I don’t inject “all” as a means to defend the feminists who actually do espouse ideas I think are harmful, though I’m sure there are those who do. I, personally, interpret it as meaning all because without a signifier, it _can_ mean all. It’d be like saying – lesbians are masculine. It is… Read more »
” I don’t inject “all” as a means to defend the feminists who…” Never said that was a means, just a result. Let me give you an example. If someone said “feminists are pushing through anti-male laws” and a feminist jumps up and says “that’s not true, feminism isn’t anti-male, it’s about equality for all” and proceeds in a back and forth about what feminism is about, does one of the results of this exchange not appear to be the shielding of the feminists who are pushing through anti-male laws? May not have been the original intention, but it is… Read more »
“Does one of the results of this exchange not appear to be the shielding of the feminists who are pushing through anti-male laws?” Ah yes, I see what you are saying. And I would say that the problem with both those statements is that they are not specific enough…because at face value neither of those statements is quite true. Or at least…neither of those statements manages to express the whole truth. I think our disagreement about the use of the term “all” or a lack of any qualifier is really just all about the very subjective aspects of reading and… Read more »
“Like for example, one of them actually is a staunchly conservative Catholic…we aren’t great friends but we are acquaintances” Whereas you have an acquaintance who is a “staunchly conservative Catholic”, two of my oldest friends is a gay couple whom I’ve known for 35 years. One of my business partners is gay. And let’s add this to boot, I work with a group that provides meals to people with AIDS (some women, mostly men) where I personally deliver meals to the home bound. Ya know what? MOST of the volunteers in this group are from the local church goers. Maybe… Read more »
I actually know plenty of gay Christians too…because obviously being gay and Christian is not mutually exclusive. And Christian feminists. And gay conservative Christians…well one. etc. etc.
My whole point in bringing up the Christian conservative right, was to say that making generalizations about the people who are part of it is inaccurate. That is my point.
“My own experiences leave me to believe that seriously hardcore radical gynocentric feminism is a dying ideology….at least numbers wise”
How about this then?? “(WOMENSENEWS)–More than 50 women’s rights organizations will be using
March 1, the first day of women’s history month, to announce a
voter-major mobilization effort for the 2012 elections”
Women’s rights? 50 organizations???? Men’s rights are struggling with keeping a handful together. “Women’s history month?”
@JohnD – I actually don’t think women should be more protected than men. I think kids should be protected. I think groups which suffer discrimination should be protected against that discrimination. But I don’t think that one gender should be more protected than the other. And as for what you’re saying…I think you’re forgetting the bits back in our other conversations where I’ve acknowledged that feminist policies have done a lot to hurt men. But that wasn’t what I was referring to in that comment. I was just saying (in a somewhat frustrated tone) that I hear what sounds to… Read more »
Julie, Hindsight is always 20/20. What we’re seeing now is the results of feminism (from rads being at the wheel) after 40 years. In other words: we can all look back NOW and say Galileo was in the right. We can all look back NOW and say the klan was messed up. But, the church’s persecution of Galileo may have resonated with people. It was a common belief that mankind was god’s children and we were the center of the universe. The concept that we were on this mudball hurtling around the sun may have been scary for lots of… Read more »
Holy crap.
Sorry heather. I tagged a reply to you with Julie. I have a lot of errands to run right now, and a lot of things on my plate today, and I haven’t had any coffee.
“Additionally, you paint the picture that feminism used to be a good movement, but morphed into something bad.” – Yeah I do paint it that way. But I suppose really I see it more as something that spawned from a good idea, and became mired down in it’s own beliefs. Because as Chris Rock said in Dogma – “You can change an idea, changing a belief is trickier.” “There is valid proof that the haters were always present in feminism since the 60′s.” – Yeah but the 60s isn’t the beginning of feminism. I think the radical version of feminism… Read more »
Emily gets points for trying to be inclusive.
Remove the qualifier that men have to agree that they aren’t oppressed to have a voice in feminism and you’re on to something good.
Yeah. (I don’t have anything else to say to that…just yeah).
One quick comment … Men should “protect” women. We are hard wired to do so.
Alright I was trying not to make the assumption that what you wanted was to return to strict gender roles, but that’s what it sounds like.
Okay there are so many comments on here, I’m worried I might be failing to respond to something someone said. If I did fail to respond to something from someone, then don’t think I’m ignoring you. Please just e-mail me at [email protected] if you want to continue some part of the discussion I have stopped talking about. For some reason the gravatar link thing isn’t working for my picture…so that’s why I’m posting my e-mail here. 🙂
This article demonstrates even moreso why men do NOT belong in the feminist movement. You acknowledge the very view that many feminists do not believe men belong, and that alone should be reason enough. A movement that claims to be about equality, but openly rejects half the population, will not serve the interests of that half equally. But moreso, despite claiming to feel men belong in the feminist movement, you still demonstrates the very behaviours that promote the idea’s of the feminists you disagree with about men’s place in leadership. You still feel men speaking for anyone’s interests but their… Read more »
Heather, I want to ask you a question. I assure you there won’t be any sarcasm or vitrol, except for an honest expression of my feelings. So hear me out. In one of your comments towards the person who’s wife was shunned by feminists because she chose to raise a family over a career, you tell him that was a very old version of feminism and that your feminism is part of maybe the post-third wave umbrella. My question for you is this: Why did it take three waves for certain feminists to finally question just how far off course… Read more »
I agree with what you’re saying, Eagle! Completely! For my mind, one of the great tragedies of the history of feminism is how it has rail-roaded right over men’s issues in the past. It created a perceived enemy, men, and often has refused to view men as anything else. I think it’s important to discuss it and acknowledge that history, warts and all. But most importantly…I think it’s essential we don’t repeat it. And please, just hear out what I’m about to say: I see a lot of the anger and rage that a lot of the most gynocentric feminists… Read more »
Heather, I simply doubt your supposition could ever happen. You will NEVER see the MRM advocating and GETTING 80% of fathers getting default sole custody to mothers 6% (as the reverse is happening currently) and fathers able to deflect mothers custody with impunity, or move the kids 1000’s of miles away against the mothers wishes. You will NEVER see the MRM advocating and GETTING a huge $1 billion dollar package on male-centered DV in which the law would state that shelters that help women would be ineligible for funds, and a Office for Violence for Men which would create primary… Read more »
Edit:
4th line should have said:
mothers 6% (as the reverse is happening currently) and fathers able to deflect mothers visitation with impunity
Edit:
2nd to last paragraphs should have stated:
We have SO MUCH consciousness raising to do that to talk of the dangers of the MRM, just seems like somebody complaining about water damage to the building when we’re trying to put out a fire to save 100 children.
“As girlwriteswhat says. Feminism isn’t a reversal of patriarchy. It’s patriarchy on nitro. Feminists were so largely successful, because their beliefs align so neatly with the perceptions of millions of Americans.” This is where we disagree. I think that the aspect of feminism that focuses on women domestic abuse victims, and some aspects of maternal rights, are patriarchy on nitro…but not the all the rest of it. There are parts of feminism that have worked to make women viewed as equal (getting the right to vote, in the workplace, in the military)…those are not about perpetuating the view of women… Read more »
Heather writes: “The feminist movement didn’t set out to screw over men…but it’s managed to do that in some pretty profound ways, in part because it focused on laying blame on one group of people (men). I don’t see how MRAs who focus on laying the blame on one group of people (feminists) can help but perpetuate the cycle.” I need to try and respond to this in a succinct way. What you’re not observing is that feminists blaming men, and MRA’s blaming feminism are two different animals. Feminists blaming men is largely a form of bigotry. What has followed… Read more »
“those are not about perpetuating the view of women as victims.” This is not what is meant by patriarchy. Patriarchy is the gender division of labour and allotment of responsibility based on the inherent risks involved in those labour divisions. Seeing women as victims has nothing to do with traditional patriarchy, only patriarchy theory and much of feminism. ” let me do what I will.” And you don’t think this very part of what you said doesn’t play into patriarchy in some way? “The feminist movement didn’t set out to screw over men” First wave feminism did not, but first… Read more »
“This is not what is meant by patriarchy. Patriarchy is the gender division of labour and allotment of responsibility based on the inherent risks involved in those labour divisions. Seeing women as victims has nothing to do with traditional patriarchy, only patriarchy theory and much of feminism.” Yes I am aware of this. But the discussion of feminism and patriarchy and how apparently patriarchy made it so that women could play the victim, etc….that all goes back to a discussion John D and I had on GirlWritesWhat’s Patriarchy Shamtriarchy article. I wasn’t saying patriarchy was the victimization of women….I was… Read more »
point 1: my point was that playing the victim, while a potential outcome allowed by patriarchy norms, is not a direct consequence. a woman is not a victim because of patriarchy, she can manipulate others using victim status because of protectiveness for women. your comment came across otherwise. furthermore, that is not the limit, and allowing women to do what they want (the part of my comment you didn’t address) is also included. In other words, even calls for being treated equal, to some degree, manipulate patriarchal beliefs. point2: but it is the differences that prevent a repetition. if Feminism… Read more »
With regards to point one – yeah I see how it came across, I was just clarifying it. It was sort of reliant on having been part of that other conversation I had with John. (I’m just hoping that he didn’t read that wrong too). – Okay so do you mean specifically because the call is for women’s equality as opposed to just gender equality? Yeah okay I can kind of see that…but it’s like…look feminism is going to focus on women’s issues, cuz…well it’s in the name. Some of the earlier feminist stuff does say that men oppressed and… Read more »
“Well…you’re probably going to totally think I’m nuts for this…but I actually don’t think that demonizing the Nazis or the KKK, or the Taliban is needed.” Say what? I suppose you needed to say this to justify your saying “ Yeah. But I still don’t think we should. Because at the end of the day, the people who espouse that hateful ideology are still people. They have reasons for thinking the way they do, which I actually think we should attempt to understand.” I don’t think we should excuse it, or ignore it…I think we should fight harmful and hateful… Read more »
Sorry for the length: “Okay so do you mean specifically because the call is for women’s equality as opposed to just gender equality? Yeah okay I can kind of see that…but it’s like…look feminism is going to focus on women’s issues, cuz…well it’s in the name.” Look at the title of this article. Tell me what it is about, then read what I just quoted. Can you not see how these are actually contradictory? Far too many feminists claim feminism is about equality for all, and insist men concerned for men’s rights should join the feminist movement. But it’s not… Read more »
@Tom – to me the difference is whether you’re fighting against a harmful ideology or whether you’re hating a person who is apart of that ideology. Look, Hitler didn’t think he was doing anything evil. He thought he was actually solving a problem for Germany and making it stronger. He was wrong; his ideology murdered and imprisoned millions of people…it was hateful and discriminatory and needed to be stopped. In the case of the Nazi’s, a peaceful protest wouldn’t have cut it…they were invading other countries for crying out loud…war was the only answer. But so then, are all Nazi’s… Read more »
Mark, we are again nested to the end, so I’ll start this again.
Heather writes: “The feminist movement didn’t set out to screw over men…but it’s managed to do that in some pretty profound ways, in part because it focused on laying blame on one group of people (men). I don’t see how MRAs who focus on laying the blame on one group of people (feminists) can help but perpetuate the cycle.” I need to try and respond to this in a succinct way. What you’re not observing is that feminists blaming men, and MRA’s blaming feminism are two different animals. Feminists blaming men is largely a form of bigotry. What has followed… Read more »
Heather writes: “The feminist movement didn’t set out to screw over men…but it’s managed to do that in some pretty profound ways, in part because it focused on laying blame on one group of people (men). I don’t see how MRAs who focus on laying the blame on one group of people (feminists) can help but perpetuate the cycle.” I need to try and respond to this in a succinct way. What you’re not observing is that feminists blaming men, and MRA’s blaming feminism are two different animals. Feminists blaming men is largely a form of bigotry. What has followed… Read more »
“When blacks opposed the Klan was that also continuing the cycle?” Well firstly, were there anything but radical Klan members? Because there are non-radical feminists (such as myself). Also, the Klan actively went out and murdered people…feminism (as a group) has not gone out on murderous rampages. Whether the policies they’ve advocated for have caused deaths is another issue…I’m saying they aren’t taking guns and killing people. Also, opposing and demonizing are two different things. Advocating against feminist ideologies that hurt men, okay I understand. Vocally opposing feminists and feminist organizations that advocate against men, alrighty no problem from me.… Read more »
@ john d …. video is clear, it happens all the time in the USA where a women can beat the crap out of the man and it’s defended but the moment a guy slaps back (note “slap” because one punch will take her down) he’s a jerk but as the video shows, men will also step up and protect / defend her. In general, men are not out to take anything away from women, we simly want back what we’ve lost in the past 30 years. @ Heather .. You’re right, Feminists didn’t kill men as the KKK did.… Read more »
“BTW, I’m a right wing Cathoic conservative … glad to meet you. And, love ya to meet my wife, a female Catholic right wing conservative and a Mexican to boot!” Okay…right…and I’m guessing that the reason you pointed that out was because you were a bit peeved at my comment regarding right-wing Christians? Yes? Because, my anger at an entire group of people that you belong to is something you feel is unjustified yeah? Because you’re a human being, you have values, and being a Catholic conservative is just you adhering to your values and beliefs. (I’m just guessing here.… Read more »
“Okay…right…and I’m guessing that the reason you pointed that out was because you were a bit peeved at my comment regarding right-wing Christians? Yes? Because, my anger at an entire group of people that you belong to is something you feel is unjustified yeah? Because you’re a human being, you have values, and being a Catholic conservative is just you adhering to your values and beliefs. (I’m just guessing here. Don’t mean to assume).” No, I mentioned it to prove to you that the so called “right wing conservative” are not what you assume. If you took some time to… Read more »
“If you took some time to KNOW who we are, you may not have the perceptions you have” No right that’s kind of my point. We can make certain generalizations about an organization, but when it comes to the individuals within that organization…well they’re individuals. The reason I continue to bring up LGBT rights isn’t because I’m trying to push them…it’s because that’s where I see parallels. In trying to relate to and empathize with what you, and the other men here, are saying…I go to the most similar thing I can think of, and that’s it. I’m seriously not… Read more »
Tom writes: “In the years that I’ve been involved in men’s rights, I can, without going back to my archives, count no less then 22 men who killed themselves because they lost their family.” That doesn’t surprise me, and I sympathize with their families. In the past 8 years or so, I have read about 5 or so fathers who either executed self-imolation on court-house steps or some other form of suicide and left a note blaming the family court. I have never seen these stories go to the national level. As I told Heather in a different article comments,… Read more »
“I heard someone tell me once “Yes, it was harsh. I had a problem with it. But it needed to be said” because of the times back then.” I just wanted to point out that quote from Eagle. That was the justification for a lot of the anti-man rhetoric back in the day. It was necessary. It needed to be said. We had to raise awareness at any cost. They couldn’t worry about how it might affect men, because they had to make people aware of how bad it was for women at the time. They couldn’t possible topple the… Read more »
Heather writes: “And then there’s your quote: Which sounds to me a lot like the same thing: They can’t worry about the possibility of what the MRM might do with it’s anti-feminist rhetoic.” Heather, false equivalency. Why? Because I don’t see statements of bigotry starting from the top-down in politically active MRM groups. Andrea Dworkin wrote a fictitious novel in which the female character said: “I would like to see a man beaten within an inch of his life and a high heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig”. Now, everybody clearly knows… Read more »
“You know as well as I do, that as soon as MRM politically active orgs begin expressing anti-woman sentiment or advocating anti-woman laws, that they will lose sponsors and members–they would essentially be shut down.”
I’m not suggesting they do advocate against women…I’m saying they advocate against feminists. Which in of itself wouldn’t be a problem….it’s the addition of _demonizing_ feminists that causes the problems. _That_ is where I see the similarities, and that is where I see potential problems.
“the addition of _demonizing_ feminists that causes the problems”
While I’m not an MRA, I would like to point out that feminism’s reputation with many average people is essentially the same as it is with MRA’s.
Yeah but I think that’s indicative (at least in part) with how much feminism was going _against_ traditional societal norms. A lot of the criticism of feminism wasn’t expressed in a rational and cohesive argument. A lot of it was more along the lines of bashing them…and hurling the wonderful insult of “lesbian” on all feminists. Oh yes…feminists are so unfeminine that they’re actually lesbians – how very insulting. It’s also interesting…on the one hand I hear arguments that feminism is so bad that the majority of people actually disagree with it. And then on the other hand I hear… Read more »
It doesn’t take a lot to be powerful. any wealthy person or politician can tell you that. Feminist groups can lay claim to having a lot of support because they are well organized with (until recently) very little opposition, plus a tendency to play upon gender norms (as you’ve already acknowledge) to inspire guilt or shame or feelings of protectiveness. If just 1 in 5 women claimed to be a feminist, even if 3 in 5 openly hated it, that 1 in 5, being more organized, with political positioning they garnered when they were more popular, can hold a LOT… Read more »
Yes my use of the word “powerful” there was inaccurate, sorry. I meant more…on the one hand I hear that it’s widely supported, and then on the other I hear that it’s widely hated. Specifically…that it has influence because it is so popular, and that it is so popular because it is in line with traditional gender roles. But then on the other hand, that it is wildly unpopular, which gives justification to why MRAs are openly hostile to feminism. – that is where I find the contradiction. I’m not saying that power=popularity…I’m saying that is the argument I hear… Read more »
“Oh yes…feminists are so unfeminine that they’re actually lesbians – how very insulting.”
They brought/bring that on themselves . . . intentionally.
Even in 2012, it is very common for gender studies feminists to reject (with enthusiasm) traditional feminine grooming habits such as shaving.
“They brought/bring that on themselves . . . intentionally.” Sort of. Kind of. Not really…and now I’m coming at this from a LGBT history perspective rather than a feminist perspective. There was a small subset of feminists who eschewed men and became political lesbians…but they were relatively small. As for the whole, not shaving or wearing a bra thing…it wasn’t about trying to say ‘we aren’t feminine,’ so much as it was trying to say ‘feminine is what we say it is.’ It’s like a lot of the discussion about masculinity here at GMP…men redefining the word to include things… Read more »
I’m pretty sure there would be a variety of explanations for their behavior, which (by the way) is not at all rare. Regardless, feminists themselves were/are the ones who reject(ed) traditional femininity.
Yes well now we’re getting into a bit of an off topic discussion…but rejecting traditional femininity is not the same as rejecting femininity, full stop. – anyway, my point in mentioning the insults levied against a lot of feminists was to say that feminism was, in some ways, going against cultural norms.
Heather writes: “It’s also interesting…on the one hand I hear arguments that feminism is so bad that the majority of people actually disagree with it. And then on the other hand I hear that it is so bad because it is so freaking powerful…and that it’s powerful because it is keeping in line with traditional gender norms. Well how the heck is that possible? – can’t have it both ways.” Heather. You have to understand that feminists have been nearly unopposed writing anti-male legislation for the past 40 years. So, the anti-feminist sentiment you’re seeing on the street is AFTER… Read more »
And now this is nested into oblivion…so I’ll start a new thread for this, John. 🙂
This I agree with. I’m finding far too many similarities between the MRM and feminism for my personal liking, and when I speak out against it, I get attacked. It’s truly disheartening. but society has never stood to protect the average men (only the elite), while, despite much of feminist teaching, feminism was asking society to do more of what it already did, the MRM is asking society to go against it’s nature long enough to fix the damage done. and more importantly, while feminism may have had to rail against ages of built in tradition, the MRM has an… Read more »
Well somewhere around here I was trying to point out that while some of what feminism was doing (advocating against domestic violence and rape against women) was perpetuating the idea that women need to be protected…a lot of it wasn’t. Fighting for a woman’s right to vote, for example, is the exact opposite. It’s saying that women are equally able to use reason and logic…don’t protect us from the political sphere, let us join. Same thing with regards to having a career, joining the military, etc. And when feminism was fighting for those things they also had an opposition that… Read more »
“And when feminism was fighting for those things they also had an opposition that benefited from social norms.”
But that opposition was not organized or conscious. And it most certainly didn’t have the past experience to know better.
And most MRA’s, from my experience, don’t need to shout against feminists. we throw facts at them. The belief that disagreement equates to shouting down is part of the problem with feminism (not saying you’re saying this now)
“But that opposition was not organized or conscious. And it most certainly didn’t have the past experience to know better.”
True, true. Which is why I’m not saying the two situations are exactly the same…just similar. I tend to notice patterns in things…to make analogies and draw parallels. So, yeah…I notice some similarities and it worries me.
“And most MRA’s, from my experience, don’t need to shout against feminists. We throw facts at them.” Well from my brief experience with MRAs…I don’t have facts thrown at me so much as I get them hurled at me…like boulders. And then my own facts (or my own interpretation of facts) gets torn down unless it’s in agreement with theirs. (And I also am not saying that is what you have done, not at all. And I’m _not_ saying that is how most of my conversation on this article has been either. Mostly it hasn’t been like that). Perhaps it’s… Read more »
I’m still waiting to hear what MRM’s you’re familiar with? I know of no MRM that has anywhere near the exposure influence feminist groups have. I say “groups” because organizations like Planned Parenthood is a feminist group. You just said you’ve had limited exposure to so where do you come off sounding as though you’re well versed with MRM’s.
I see where you’re coming from, Heather. Especially with this part: “And I think the way to avoid that is to focus on fixing the societal problems that perpetuate gender inequalities, and to avoid playing the blame game, or the victim game.” You’re right. I would get behind this in a heartbeat. In fact, I do anyways. However, let me address a few points: “I see a lot of the anger and rage that a lot of the most gynocentric feminists espoused mirrored in what a lot of the angrier MRAs are saying. Only this time, the enemy is feminists…and… Read more »
Oh I’m totally not offended by what you’re saying, by the way. I’m sensitive to sarcasm, yes…but reasoned discussion and criticism don’t offend me. 🙂 “As I’ve said before, most of the anger comes from people who are seriously hurt.” – I totally acknowledge that a lot of the MRAs who give voice to their anger are coming from deep personal wounds. And I actually think that there should be a forum for them to voice that anger. I totally get it. Not to harp on about my own personal life…but having safe LGBT spaces where I can bitch and… Read more »
“As much as the three waves of feminism bear responsibility for the retaliatory nature of the MRM….the strict traditional gender roles of the 19th century west bear responsibility for the retaliatory nature of the feminist movement.”
Except one is a concept/habit that affected both genders in different ways, while another is a concious ideology that should know better, due to their own experiences, but continues to promote opposition.
Heather: “I totally acknowledge that a lot of the MRAs who give voice to their anger are coming from deep personal wounds. And I actually think that there should be a forum for them to voice that anger.” But there isn’t. That’s my point. Years ago, there used to be places where men could go and talk about their issues. You know what happened? Society and the gynocentric’s pressurised them to include women. Those that didn’t were forced to disband/shutdown. Now, when there’s even a hint of maybe starting a space for men, society screams out that it’ll be at… Read more »
“But there isn’t. That’s my point.” Well then I’m all for making them. And the internet has something for everyone…I’m sure there are more man-only sites than GMP where men can rant a bit more. And if there aren’t…then someone should make one. “Too bad nobody bothered to address it back then. Look at the damage it’s done now.” Agreed. But I think it’s important not to dwell on the past (funny considering that’s what I do for a living. lol). But really…I think the best way to move forward is to do just that…move forward. Acknowledge the past, and… Read more »
Yeah, I agree with your overall point Heather.
Moving forward is the only way to proceed.
It’s just really hard when you’ve still got feminists living in the past dictating things. That’s why people focus on the past because these relics are from the past and society is still influenced by them.
“It’s just really hard when you’ve still got feminists living in the past dictating things.”
This is something I completely and totally understand. And that’s why I think spaces for a sort of cathartic expression of all those frustrations are necessary. So that you can vent your anger, and rant and rave in a safe space…and maybe be a bit more willing to focus on the future when having discussions with people who might not agree with you.
That’s the general you…not you specifically.
Heather: “This is something I completely and totally understand. And that’s why I think spaces for a sort of cathartic expression of all those frustrations are necessary. So that you can vent your anger, and rant and rave in a safe space…and maybe be a bit more willing to focus on the future when having discussions with people who might not agree with you.” You just summed up where my own self-development is working on at the moment. I’ve still got a ton of anger about not just what happened to me in the past but towards that strand of… Read more »
Would somebody please get me off moderation? I’m getting irritated here.
Ah moderation happens to everyone based on language used and also length of the post, I think. I don’t think it’s you…so much as that you’re posting long bits. I get posts on moderation too that are wicked long. “Told me that yes men can get bullied by women but men bully other men, women are bullied by men.” – as if women don’t bully other men or other women. He should go watch Mean Girls. On a more serious note…no of course I don’t blame you for ranting at something like that. Sometimes people make jacka$$ comments, and then… Read more »
I worry 100 years frrom now that men will be eliminated The first and second wave feminism MADE the issues that men are confronted with today. Feminist groups that want a level playing field and be the platform for change is like saying that the KKK should coordinate civil rights activities and be the platform to make changes. NOW may no longer overtly promote career over staying at home but they also don’t nurture it. With the exception of promoting things like VAWA (which includes education on spousal abuse) the stay at home mother doesn’t have NOW in their corner.… Read more »
Tom writes:
With the exception of situation comedies who depict the stay at home mom as an idiot,
You must not watch tv, because every stay at home mom seems to be superior to the working man in almost every category of human behavior.
Look at Everybody Loves Raymond. Debra is depicted as smarter, more organized, of stronger will, more empathic, a harder worker the list goes on and on.
Actually I watched that show which has been off the air for a while but I watch the reruns. There were a lot of episodes where she was made out to look like an idiot. Even an episode where she tried to go back to work. I have to be honest, I don’t watch alot of TV, what I do watch is TIVO’d.
Tom writes: “Go to a movie and see a women slap a man and ya hear things like “you go girl” “Beat that SOB.” Watch a scene where a man slaps, hits or shoves a women, you hear the audience gasp. Men are bad, women are victims.” Exactly. The feminist movement was so successful at passing laws against men, because their sentiment dovetails so nicely with the national mentality of male disposability and female protection. Men requiring protection creates revulsion in both men and women. Look at all the images of women on male violence that are so readily tolerated… Read more »
@Tom
You do not have to worry that men are going to be eliminate 100 years from now. As far as I can see that as the present legal inequalities favoring women increase, men would evolve dissociate themselves from the society which would be really frightening for the government and women. Men are the pillars on which the civilization stands. Women need men as much as virus needs to infect a host to live. Men just have to take a bold and unified stand that they are no longer going to tolerate these injustices.
“Men are the pillars on which the civilization stands. Women need men as much as virus needs to infect a host to live.”
Well see now this is the type of rhetoric that makes it difficult for me to engage in a conversation about these issues. You seriously just compared women to a virus, Rapses. And to say that ‘men are the pillars on which civilization stands,’ is as bad as what some of the more gynocentric feminists have said…that ‘women are the pillars of civilization.’ Neither is true…people create and maintain society, not just men or just women…both.
Nobody is none so blind as those who won’t see. Just make a list of all the great pioneers in various fields, and you will find only men in those lists. It concludes that men have almost been sole contributors to the civilization. Most of the time the only contribution of women to civilization has been making babies. As for the conversation on the topics of relation between me and feminism, the only problem is that feminist take ha high stand and try to preach men instead of listening to their problems.
Right, well…that’s something I haven’t heard argued in a long time. Instead of rebutting it here, though, I’ll just point you to another GMP article.
So I am really curious, now, as to where you’re from…what sort of job you have…who you are, really. Not in some sort of snarky sort of way. I am just actually curious. Like…I don’t expect you to necessarily answer that…because I realize I’m asking personal questions. But I’m curious.
Well I think your cultural relativism has failed you as you are interested in knowing the background of commenter to form judgment. If I remember correctly you did the same with another commenter from Canada with two advanced degrees. To satisfy your curiosity, I would like to inform you that I originally from South Asia, born in former aristocratic family, did my Masters and PhD in mathematics from a very prominent U.S. university and am currently working in North Europe.That is all that I wish to reveal without compromising my anonymity and hope it satisfies you well.
Thank you very much for sharing that. I’m not asking to pass judgement (just like I didn’t ask the Canadian guy about his personal life to pass judgement). I was actually just trying to get a feel for where you are coming from…trying to put your comments and opinions into some sort of context, is all. I hope I did not offend you by asking.
Which yeah, that kind of is what cultural relativism is all about – understanding the cultural contexts that people are coming from. Again, not to form a judgement…but just to understand.
@Heather
Since you are playing for Team Feminism on this thread, let me put a straight and simple question to you. What does feminism offer to men???
Heather writes: “Well see now this is the type of rhetoric that makes it difficult for me to engage in a conversation about these issues.” Agreed. In order to stop the feminist juggernaut it is going to be necessary to underscore man’s humanity, not play the blame game with the feminists. Just for the record, it seems a lot of men are so very angry at having injustice thrust upon them (I don’t know if rapses is one of them) that they can’t see straight. To put a (possibly undeserving spin) on what rapses is saying, when it comes to… Read more »
Alright yeah I get what you’re saying about the actual, physical building of the infrastructure of our current society. And, ya know, if that’s what Rapses was trying to say…then okay.
But from where I’m sitting, it sounded a bit more like saying that all of civilization in the history of ever was created by men. Not just the west today, and not just physically….but that women didn’t contribute in any way except to pop out kids and cook meals.
Which is not only offensive…but inaccurate.
Heather,
I’m not sure what rapses was saying. However, I do understand the sentiment.
I think this is part of the problem is that the only allowable reaction from men who face true injustice is anger.
Allowable and/or construed? At my facility we do and exercise where clients (the boys) deal with their feelings. Most of them are very familiar with “anger” and they see everything they feel ass “anger.” The client is to fill out a slip that starts with “I feel _____ ‘ toward a behavior or a situation with a peer and is presented in group to the peer whom they are addressing. We have an open discussion as to the “feel” part and what these guys learn is that they have more feelings then “anger.” It also teaches them assertiveness skills in… Read more »
“Feminism want have have successfully brainwashed society that any time a man brings an issue to suface, they’re angry and nothing else. So on one hand I work with young men to learn that what they feel is not always anger and to learn and be okay with other feelings, I come here and “You’re an angry man” is shoved down my throat. No, I an many mrens rights advocates are not angry!” Um no…what I’m saying is that I read a lot of these posts and it sounds angry. Or rather, it reads angry. I’m not trying to brainwash… Read more »
Another tactic I have seen employed by feminists (or maybe not a tactic so much as just throwing themselves out there) is for a feminist pundit (say at a rally) to say something like: “They say we’re a bunch of angry women! Damn right we’re angry! We’re angry because of A, B, C, D reasons!” But, when feminist bloggers talk about MRA anger, it’s always painted as 1) unjustifiable (we’re angry about LOSING PRIVILEGE rather than the concept that our civil rights are being stolen) and 2) the idea that MRA anger is DANGEROUS or violent which is a ridiculous… Read more »
@John Gottman D – right okay. I wasn’t trying to say any of that. I’m saying that cool heads and rational discussion is the way forward, for everyone. There should be a space to express anger (or any other emotion) regarding any injustice (for anyone and everyone). But if you’re trying to have a conversation with someone who you disagree with, and the attempt is to try to meet in the middle and come to some sort of shared understanding…then leaving as much emotion at the door as you can is useful. (Now you, individually…you in general. And I include… Read more »
Rapses writes: “Women need men as much as virus needs to infect a host to live.” I think making an analogy that compares women to viruses is a bit much. Your comparison may be accurate for the type of toxic dysfunctional women who are most likely to use female-biased laws to forcibly remove a man from his children and try to keep him out of the children’s lives permanently (all while he has the pleasure of paying the courts and his wife for injustice of course) you have to remember that the women who do this are a minority (although… Read more »
Well put and I agree … good luck to them. It scares me what society will look like in 50 years or even less. Men have lost so much in themselves and it’s not getting any better. If you even have a chance, read something that I have shared with many guys through the years. On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs – Dave Grossman. Amazing.
Tom, I read part of the essay you mentioned. I understand the sentiment, but it sounds a lot like people are supposed to tolerate the encroaching destruction of civil liberties. Let’s take 1 example about soldiers in airports. The 911 hijackers didn’t even try to get any fire-arms onto the planes. What that tells me is that screening was not the problem. If all this money spent on $200k xray scanners per airport was spent on expanding the air marshal program instead we would be much better off. In many or MOST instances governments shout alarm to further intrusion into… Read more »
“The first and second wave feminism MADE the issues that men are confronted with today. ” Actually no. First and second wave feminism made many of the issues that men are confronted with today…particularly with regards to parental rights and reproductive rights. However, your mention of female-on-male violence as something that feminism made acceptable is forgetting a lot of history. Traditionally women were seen as physically weaker, and therefore unable to hurt a man. So a woman hitting a man is viewed as funny because conventional wisdom says that women can’t hurt men. Feminism was remiss in not addressing this… Read more »
Oh and you asked me to name MRMs. I can name one…A Voice For Men. But then…I can only name one political feminist organization…NOW. I’m not part of any political feminist organizations, so yeah I don’t know their names. Also, asking me to name something is a bit…well it’s not a good litmus test for anything. I am appallingly bad at remembering the names of people or things. Like, I can remember entire movies that I haven’t seen since I was a child…but ask me to tell you what they were called and I’m at a loss. It took me… Read more »
Although I enjoy this platform, I wouldn’t call it an MRM. It’s simply a platform for men to voice their views. It takes no position other then to allow men AND women to vent.
GMP isn’t an MRM, no. It’s specifically stated that it’s focus is not on either the MRM or feminism.
Here is what society has taught males. A couple years ago I had a teen client, he was 17 at the time. He disclosed that “he bagged is first babe when he was 11” It was his teenage babysitter. He in no way saw that he was sexually abused. MRM’s … we’re fighting to be heard about things like this. Whereas you see women being manipulated by “what beauty is” through the cosmetic and fashion industry, I see men and boys being taught that all they are is dudes out for a quick lay. My concern with feminists in these… Read more »
“And I ask again, why do the MRM’s have to go to the feminist camps? Why are you all going to the MRM camps and LISTENING to what we have to say?” Personally, I think it should go both ways. Men belong in the feminist movement, women belong in the MRM. And yeah just like men in the feminist movement shouldn’t be restricted in what they say, women in the MRM shouldn’t be restricted in what they’re saying. We should all of us listen to each other more (which I always try to do, but don’t always succeed). But a… Read more »
You have changed your tune. This all started with men going to the feminist camp. Now you want to ride the fence and have us all go to each others camps. Won’t happen. Personally, I don’t need to listen to their side. I’ve heard it for 30+ years and hear it every day in the courts, at work, in the shopping center … everywhere. Turn on the TV, watch a movie … it’s all there all the time. Not related to this string but I need to mention something that pertains to the perceived notion that men in MRM’s are… Read more »
“You have changed your tune. This all started with men going to the feminist camp.” Well firstly, if I had, then wouldn’t that be something to be commended instead of criticized? I hate it when people have this discussion with differing ideas and then if one person actually changes their mind, they’re derided for it. What the heck man. But in this case, I actually haven’t changed my opinion. This particular article was about men joining feminism, and so my replied have been centred on that. Just because I was talking about men joining feminism, didn’t mean I was excluding… Read more »
Yeah, if you went to a “mens” group to listen, then why didn’t you “listen?” Coming from the corporate world of business to business sales, “listening” is a key to success. Being in the industry that I’m in now “Listening” is a key when working with these kids. I have a feeling you went into those groups to try to change them. Years of men working in these men’s groups and dealing with countless issues, do you honestly think you could come in with an “I have a solution” to your problems approach. Personally, my impression is that you were… Read more »
“I have a feeling you went into those groups to try to change them. Years of men working in these men’s groups and dealing with countless issues, do you honestly think you could come in with an “I have a solution” to your problems approach.” Assume much? I didn’t make a comment or say a thing to any of these groups, actually. I did, actually, go into them to listen. And what I heard was a lot of generalized anti-feminist rhetoric. It put me off. It wasn’t about them listening to me, because I didn’t say anything. It was purely… Read more »
Whenever there is a discussion on the relationship between men and feminism, the debaters are stuck in definition and jargon missing the central issue. 1) The author claims that men belong in the feminism. For a group do belong in any kind of movement, it should have a stake in the cause of that movement. Feminism addresses none of the men’s issues; therefore men do not have any stake in feminism. Then, how men belong in the feminist movement? 2) The author claims that her feminism (whatever that means) is about abolishing heteronormative and sexist gender assumptions to allow people… Read more »
#3 is an excellent point. We keep getting inflicted with this narrative that women are oppressed. However, the best examples they can come up with is examples of individuals behaving badly: in other words women are oppressed by culture (i.e. slut-shaming, street harrassment). These are things a person can get over if they have a thick skin. The issues oppressing men are SYSTEMIC and institutionalized by the governing elite. It is impossible to fight them except to make yourself a martyr and risk imprisonment. If family courts are so female biased that custody is given to toxic mothers over loving… Read more »
#4 … Funny you brought this up. I was married in 1970’s and one of the big issues was that women did all the work in the home. It went so far as to place a dollar figure on what a wife was worth. Back then, best I can recall was that a women was worth as much as 50K per year breaking down each function she performed around the house. What they didn’t do was place a dollar amount on what husbands did in the home. I did the plumbing, painting, mechanics on the car, the landscaping and misc.… Read more »
The following article is what convinced me to do more chores around the house:
http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/01/work-l-spot-she-will-beg-you-for-more.html
@Eric Gaby: Alrighty examples of male privilege – politics (like I already mentioned), the mainstream view of the LGBT community, modern conceptions of beauty, the tech industry, the military, the corporate world. It’s not a matter of looking at the numbers, strictly. It’s more about the perception of those categories both within and without those specific contexts. I have to go out at the moment, but I will be back to elaborate a bit more on the LGBT example because frankly that’s the one I’m most familiar with. And yeah the feminist movement hasn’t done much with regards to female… Read more »
“Alrighty examples of male privilege – politics (like I already mentioned)”
How can there be female politicians if men always comes out on top as a result of male privilege?
And sorry, your theories and examples are not backed up by any data.
How can there be female homeless people if if the case of homelessnes, women are privileged? To say that women are privileged when it comes to, say, child custody, isn’t to say that women will always 100% of the time get custody. It says that the system in place favors women. So with politics, there are female politicians…but the dialogue that surrounds people who are running for office favors men. The tech industry – there are women who work in the tech industry, but to do so is very much an experience of walking into a man’s world. LGBT community… Read more »
“the dialogue that surrounds people who are running for office favors men.”
In what way? What is your evidence?
“there are women who work in the tech industry, but to do so is very much an experience of walking into a man’s world.”
As a result of women’s choices. Feminists especially choose to take gender studies and then blame their lack of jobs in engineering and tech on men and society.
Why don’t feminists acknowledge personal choice with their male privilege theory?
“In what way? What is your evidence?” – I am not retyping my whole Clinton and Bachman discussion. That is what I was referring to. “Why don’t feminists acknowledge personal choice with their male privilege theory?” The question of personal choice impacts statistics. For example – are there more women who are nurses, than men, because of personal choice? Maybe. But then we have to ask ourselves why? Is it just a meaningless statistic? In this case the answer is no…it’s because in jobs which entail a caregiving role there is female privilege. Personal choice exists, it’s just that people’s… Read more »
The experiences of two politicians not being treated like little old ladies is not evidence of male privilege. Anybody, male or female, young or old, who wants to run for office better have thick skin and be prepared for no-gloves-on treatment, not special gentle treatement reserved for ladies. Women and girls are more willing and interested in voluntary (no charge) caregiving for friends and/or family. Thus, it stands to reason that they would be mroe likely to pursue jobs in caregiving. This is not any sort of privilege; it is reality. This conversation is precisely the kind of thinking that… Read more »
With regards to the politics – it’s not that they weren’t treated nicely. Obviously politics is a tough and dirty game. It’s that their gender was a source for attacks and ridicule.
With regards to the nursing example – again it’s not that women are encouraged to engage in caregiving work, it’s that men are discouraged. Male nurses have to contend with all sorts of stereotypes about their sexuality….and that they’re just failed doctors. They are often seen as less masculine because of their profession.
Let me explain how this works: Obama’s big ears, McCain’s T-Rex arms, Hillary’s cankles, Bush’s stammering and inarticulateness, etc. Whatever people can use they will use. It’s not about ears, arms, cankles, gender. it’s politics, not a Sunday picnic. If they were mean to the women and nice to the guys, then you would have a point. How many little boys say they want to become a nurse or daycare worker? You don’t hear that. Nothing to do with sexuality. You are ignoring the reality that men and women are simply not the same, and make different choices as a… Read more »
And yet none of the examples you gave are at all what I am talking about. I think you’re seeing this as a very black and white situation. As if for you, in order for there to be male privilege, the men have to be treated amazingly, and the women like shit. And vice versa with female privilege. But the reality is that it’s a much more subtle situation. So in politics – everyone gets attacked for different personal things. But when Obama had to suffer attacks that were based on his ethnicity, that indicated ethnic privilege. Because those attacks… Read more »
I disagree Heather. I don’t think the game of politics is either male privileged or female privileged. I think the press is likely to attack either a man (seeming to) fail at his gender role or a woman (seeming to fail) at her gender role. Look at Edmund Muskie who essentially lost a presidential bid because he appeared to cry when reporters claimed his wife was a drunk. As Eric M said, the politicians detractors will latch onto ANYTHING they can use. I simply think that many women smartly stay out of politics. What needs is there for a woman… Read more »
“Look at Edmund Muskie who essentially lost a presidential bid because he appeared to cry when reporters claimed his wife was a drunk.” Okay, but if that was the case, why then was Hilary also derided for showing emotion…she is a woman after all. There is a heteronormative bias in politics, certainly. Both men and women are expected to adhere to certain gender standards – the women wear make-up, but the men most certainly don’t. The women have long (ish) hair, and the men keep it short. The men are expected not to show tears. etc. etc. But for a… Read more »
Well, whatever reasons women may feel inspired to go into politics, it seems that women choose that those things they wish to fight for are not worth the intense scrutiny. In other words, you seem to be falling into the standard dynamic that disparity equals discrimination that many feminists fall into. I see women (smartly) staying out of politics as it could be very damaging for ones soul. You see an anti-woman environment. Also, in your discussion with Eric I think I see where the miscommunication lies. Eric makes very good points that when we take the metrics which show… Read more »
Holy crapple apple…that was long. lol. I guess I can’t complain considering I write such long posts too. So no, I’m not saying that fewer women in politics equals discrimination. My discussion of women in politics wasn’t about the numbers…I was _purely_ talking about the tight rope you referred to. That’s all. A discussion of the numbers would be a completely different one. (I only got annoyed at the implication that women would defer to men in politics unless there was a specifically feminine issue they cared about). – I’m actually a bit of an anti-statistics person…I mean not really…but… Read more »
“How can there be female homeless people if if the case of homelessnes, women are privileged?” I sited information on the ratio of men vs women and the overwhelming majority are men. “”To say that women are privileged when it comes to, say, child custody, isn’t to say that women will always 100% of the time get custody. It says that the system in place favors women” Which means that women are privileged when it comes to child custody. “ So with politics, there are female politicians…but the dialogue that surrounds people who are running for office favors men.” You… Read more »
“I sited information on the ratio of men vs women and the overwhelming majority are men.” – That was a rhetorical question in response to Eric’s question about women and politics. And yes, women are privileged when it comes to child custody. That is what I am saying. Women are privileged, but any privilege doesn’t ensure being favoured 100%. As for politicians – I’m not talking about whether male or female politicians favour feminist agendas or not. I was purely talking about the obstacles they face while trying for election – in which women are attacked based on their gender.… Read more »
Which I’d just like to add, that what you’re picking apart here is sort of beyond the point. Or maybe it serves to prove my point. – Male and female privilege exists, but it’s all reliant on a contextual approach. Not everything has a gendered privilege…but for those aspects of society in which they do, the way to understand it is by looking at a specific context. So the actual rights that LGB people are fighting for, no male or female privilege. The actual policies put in place with regards to paternal rights, female privilege. The discourse surrounding the personal… Read more »
“Male and female privilege exists, but it’s all reliant on a contextual approach.”
It’s a useless feminist concept used almost exclusively to hammer males, but you disagree. Fine. Have at it.
Regardless, what will happen is that the feminist movement will continue to use the term “male privilege” and continue to not use the term “female privilege.” Let me know when the movement discovers female privilege and uses it just as often as male privilege. But, I won’t hold my breath.
I think you’re sort of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It gets used to blame men, yes…but that’s a problem with who has been using it and how it has been used…not with the idea itself. And there _are_ feminists using the term female privilege (and plenty of other privileges as well). I’m a feminist who is using it. Rachel Goodchild is a feminist who used it to write an article for GMP. My professors at my university who were feminists also used it. The more political groups like NOW might not be using it…but that doesn’t mean… Read more »
The only professed feminist that I have ever heard use female privilege in writing without being prompted by someone noting that they don’t use it (e.g., in this case) is Rachel Goodchild. But, of course, she is also the only feminist that I know of who is also a masculist. So, she would be able to see both sides, not just one.
Thing is, there are lots of feminists out there writing, commenting, blogging that you may not know about. Like who knows how many. There is much I mention in my FB or conversations you’d never see. Lots and lots and lots of liberal humanist feminists see both sides. You don’t have to believe me, and there isn’t anyway to prove it, but I see them. Heather sees them, my friends see them.
I have no doubt that there is writing, blogging, and commenting happening – but about what? I do realize that not all professed feminists are gynocentrists, but do these writings denounce them as actually anti-feminists, not feminists at all – calling them out because their views are incompatible with equality? I hope so.
Eric writes:
“I do realize that not all professed feminists are gynocentrists, but do these writings denounce them as actually anti-feminists, not feminists at all – calling them out because their views are incompatible with equality? I hope so.”
Color me dubious.
@ HeatherN I don’t know if I’d include politics. Women make up about 53% of the voters. Some estimates have women controlling more of the country’s wealth than men, mostly widows. Hillary Clinton had a strong political machine and was backed by a former President. It’s true that harmful gender constructs could be held by the gender adversely impacted, but I think that the country was looking for an outsider when Clinton ran and even feminists wouldn’t back Palin or Bachmann. I voted for Clinton in the primary and Obama in the general election. There was no democratic primary this… Read more »
“Women may also avoid politics because their husband’s are politicians.” How many men would avoid politics because their wives are politicians, I wonder. And I’d argue that women being 53% of voters doesn’t actually factor into it. Men are part of perpetuating female privilege, just like women are part of perpetuating male privilege. As for the military…yeah I put that in there, then took it out, then put it in there again. But I’d argue that when African-Americans weren’t allowed in the military that was part of white privilege. And the same for Don’t Ask Don’t Tell and heteronormative privilege.… Read more »
@HeatherN “How many men would avoid politics because their wives are politicians,” I’ve been trying to think of some, but haven’t come up with any. Sarah Palin’s husband wasn’t a politician. He ran a construction company. Gifford’s husband I believe is an astronaut. It seems to cut both ways. When you look at it from a macro level, you can say that women are disadvantaged because their voices aren’t being heard, but on a micro level, it’s generally the husbands that take the risks in politics while the wives get to enjoy the advantages. By risks I mean that there… Read more »
With regards to the military – “I would think they were differently privileged rather than strictly male privilege.” Yeah that is probably a better way to say it. Really my whole point in all of this is to just explain what male and female privilege is and to explain that both exist. The terms might be problematic, but the concepts are real. With regards to the expectation of behaviour within a political family – yeah but a politician’s wife and children are expected to behave in certain ways too. Could you imagine a tom-boy type of politician’s wife? Or an… Read more »
Heather said “So I think limiting the role women can have in the military is part of male privilege….it’s just a really complicated aspect to it considering it’s to do with risking lives.” Yeah, it’s a male privilege to have to sign up for selective service at the age of 18. Like I challenged many of you before, go to NOW and ask that they campaign to include females in selective service mandate. Consider how you would feel living in the late 60’s and early 70’s and making a decision to enlist in the military because you’d have a better… Read more »
I said it was complicated, and I didn’t include selective service. I also didn’t discuss suicide in the military. I was specifically referring to the fact that women are not able to hold the same positions as men.
Heather, Regarding the military. I don’t think what feminists are doing should necessarily be taken at it’s face value. I have seen a lot of advocacy from feminists centering around sexual harassment and rape of women in the military. I haven’t seen a lot of this advocacy lately, but from about 4 to 8 years ago I remember a lot of articles and feminist press releases centering on this: remember the tailhook scandal? In other words, feminists seem to be fighting for women to be a “protected” class of soldiers whithin the army. This is problematic. The army is built… Read more »
I don’t mind women fighting in the military, or even on the front line. Although I think there needs to be some research to show this won’t increase soldier deaths. Anybody who knows the story of Jessica Lynch knows that the reason they were 100’s of miles behind enemy lines in the first place was because either Jessica or the other female soldier wanted to get to a phone and call their parents. Jessica is a very pretty girl, I can easily see how the male soldiers would pretty much agree with whatever she wanted to do. While I am… Read more »
“If such a study DOES show that unit cohesiveness is impaired significantly, or female deaths contribute substantially to combat readiness due to lowered morale/trauma then feminists need to own up to reality and put stop banging this particular drum” Wow…that sounds so familiar…wait a moment…where have I heard something like that before….oh yeah…with regards to the repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. (That was sarcastic. Sorry). Look with regards to filing sexual harassment and rape charges…I think that should be something that is advocated for regardless of gender. So I don’t think feminists should stop discussing it…so much as they… Read more »
“So, once again I don’t have a problem with women fighting for their country on the front lines, as long as there is a study done to show this won’t destroy unit cohesiveness or lower morale when female deaths do happen.“ Do ya really think that a male solder would have any chances in the military if he said anything regarding his concerns with having females on the front lines with him? Whereas gays had “don’t ask, don’t tell” men in the military today have the “don’t say and shut up.” Nonetheless, solders adjust to their environment and make the… Read more »
Heather writes: “Wow…that sounds so familiar…wait a moment…where have I heard something like that before….oh yeah…with regards to the repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. (That was sarcastic. Sorry).” Good point. However, I have some counter-points. From what I remember, the military brass never authorized (or if they did quoted) any statistical evidence regarding gays serving openly in the military. In essence all they did was kept saying “nuh uh”. I mean even a survey of soldiers about how they felt would have been good. I think there would be a lot more factual evidence of the proof of disharmony… Read more »
I meant a single shower coed shower for both sexes to bath together.
Heather writes:
“So which is it? Are men destined to try to protect them? Or are they destined to try to sleep with them?”
Those two are only mutually exclusive if sleeping with a woman is defined as some kind of harm.
Yeah okay. The reply where I put that in was a bit more of an annoyed rant than a rational argument. But all of that still points to this idea that for some reason, men are unable to overcome their biology. It doesn’t even matter than I don’t think either protecting women or sexual harassment are part of men’s biology. The point here is the idea that they’re stuck with it. Which is just…demeaning to men, I think. If women can overcome their (supposed) biological impulse to be protected and actually join the military…why don’t we expect men to overcome… Read more »
“Cohesiveness” … good word. For years society has and continues to stereotype men as unfeeling and the claim that one reason MRM’s struggle with gaining strength is their inability to be cohesive. Yet when we look at the military and men in the military, you find the epitome of where men work together and bond. Let’s strip down the military of men so as to accommodate women. How I act with my male friends is different from the way we act when their wives are present. That’s not to say when they’re not around we become “men behaving badly” but… Read more »
@JohnD “I have seen a lot of advocacy from feminists centering around sexual harassment and rape of women in the military. I haven’t seen a lot of this advocacy lately, but from about 4 to 8 years ago I remember a lot of articles and feminist press releases centering on this: remember the tailhook scandal? In other words, feminists seem to be fighting for women to be a “protected” class of soldiers whithin the army.” You might want to phrase this a little differently. I would think not getting raped by your own soldiers is a pretty basic necessity to… Read more »
I also went on to say the destructive impact simply threatening a FALSE allegation could do between a private and a higher up. I think I explained my point, but there was one omission. My understanding of feminist advocacy regarding rape and harassment in the military is this: Feminists want to port over civilian work-place sexual harassment rules to the military. Considering how powerful a false rape allegation is in civilian life (Duke 3), this would transform the lowest female private into a queen bee in which no rules would apply to her. Under such rules a drill sergeant who… Read more »
With regards to women in the military and being uncomfortable about possible oggling – here is where I’m going to break away from many of my fellow feminists and say – suck it the hell up. Usually I avoid that phrase, but in this case, I’ll use it. In the case of actual sexual harassment or rape (by a man or a woman, to a man or a woman), I totally believe that soldiers need to be able to report it and have it dealt with. But with regards to showers, and living space, and bathrooms etc…yeah coed makes sense… Read more »
Alright I also don’t want you guys to think I’m trying to speak from a man’s perspective or something…but most of the guys I know are kind of tired of being seen as being so unable to control themselves are women.
“But with regards to showers, and living space, and bathrooms etc…yeah coed makes sense to me.”
It certainly makes as much sense as heterosexuals and homosexuals cohabiting. It’s outright discrimination to bar men and women from sharing showers and quarters while at the same time insisting that heteros and homosexuals share.
“It’s outright discrimination to bar men and women from sharing showers and quarters while at the same time insisting that heteros and homosexuals share.” Right well now I’m again talking about this topic from a LGBT perspective…but here we go. Kind of, yes…except…our society has separated living spaces based on biological sex for a long time. So for all that time gay guys and gals were sharing living space with straight guys and gals. As much as it might make some people uncomfortable…the easiest counter argument is that – hey it’s been happening for centuries. It’s nothing new. With regards… Read more »
“As much as it might make some people uncomfortable…the easiest counter argument is that – hey it’s been happening for centuries. It’s nothing new.”
It’s a weak argument. Blacks were segregated for a very long time. The arguments are essential identical: it would and does make some people feel uncomfortable.
If segregation is wrong because some people are uncomfortable with the person’s homosexual orientation or race, it is just as wrong to be segregated based on gender. Segregation is either discrimination or it’s not.
You will notice that all I ask is for consistency.
when you talk about men being lead around by their penises it reminded me of something. I remember seeing this very funny online video that I haven’t been able to find. It was of a relatively young (mid 20’s) man and women flirting (in presumably one of their homes/apartments). The guy’s about to get undressed and asks her to be gentle with his….. because it’s his best friend. Then it’s revealed that his best friend (penis) is actually a miniature guy who talks. It’s super funny. Astoundingly the woman doesn’t lose interest. The guys is very surprised. Then the miniature… Read more »
@Eric Gaby – with regards to separation based on gender versus sexuality: Naw I’m not saying that either actually makes more sense. What I’m saying is that I think the reason military was more willing to suggest that separation based on gender was alright (but separation based on sexuality wasn’t) was because so much of our society already separates living spaces based on gender.
@ JohnD
I understand. I just wanted to make sure that we don’t do the same thing that the feminists do and equate accusation with false rape. There was a 64% increase in rape reports and feminists took that to mean that rape increased by 64%. They instinctively equated accusation with guilt. I pointed out that in 2009, the rules changed for pregnant women. In addition to being transferred out of combat zones, they would be court martialed along with the men who impregnanted them. Of course my comment was met with silence.
I forgot that I mentioned one other thing to them and that is that when a person makes a rape claim, they are transferred out of their unit. Could it be that there are more rape claims because women can no longer get out of combat by getting pregnant? That is a possibility, but we shouldn’t just assume it. I want the MRM to not just be an alternative to feminism, but for it to be a better alternative than feminism.
So voting indicates level of oppression? Man, 20 year olds must be REALLY oppressed….
@ HeatherN
I’m not sure I’d include the military either. The vast majority of combat deaths are male. The ban on women in combat does seem to reduce their risk of being killed. I tend to say that I’d rather have a choice than not, but I don’t know that all the men in combat positions had the option to not be there. I hesitate calling getting killed a privilege.
Why should women have to hold the same positions? Again, men are hard wired differently and built differently. It’s that simple. What happen to the same value but different?
They don’t _have_ to hold the same positions. That’s not the point. If it was simply about the fact that _most_ front-line positions were being held by men, that’d be a different discussion. The point is that, regardless of their qualifications, women are banned from holding certain positions in the military.
You just contradicted yourself. “They don’t have to hold the same positions …” “… women are banned from holding certain positions.”
Nono…what I’m saying is that it’s not about whether women actually do hold the same positions as men. As in…it’s not about looking at some sort of statistical breakdown of which positions are held by men and women, and then trying to equalize it. That would be ridiculous.
The problem is that women are banned from holding certain positions by virtue of being women. Doesn’t matter whether they’re qualified or not. It doesn’t even matter if they’re more qualified than a man who is in that position. The fact that they are women means they can’t hold it. That’s discrimination.
@Heather “Alrighty examples of male privilege – politics (like I already mentioned), the mainstream view of the LGBT community, modern conceptions of beauty, the tech industry, the military, the corporate world. It’s not a matter of looking at the numbers,” The interesting thing about the tech industry is that scientific evidence indicates that women can succeed. It may be a confidence gap that causes them to avoid the tech industry. I can’t find the citation, but Dr. Linda Sax did research comparing student’s grades in math with student performance. She found that girls scored higher than boys, but consistently under… Read more »
Okay, It’s time to break out a pet peeve of mine. This pet peeve is this. When companies (voluntarily or under laws like in sweden in which 50% of ceo’s must be female) try to generate good PR by expanding their female presence in various departments where women are currently under-represented, it’s (more likely than not) actually BAD for the women who are hired, BAD for the men near them, and BAD for the company and much more likely to get them a multi-million dollar sexual harassment lawsuit. Here is my theory. Let’s say for the sake of argument that… Read more »
Oh guys…no I’m not talking about the number of people in an industry. I am completely, 100% against hiring women to fill a position just because you want to appear to have more of a female presence. That aspect of affirmative action might have been needed to get the ball rolling, but it’s totally unhelpful now and should totally high tail it out of here. In all cases, the main concern should be about hiring the best person for the job (ideally), regardless of anything else. What you say about the confidence gap, John Anderson, is really quite interesting. I… Read more »
“Observations” at this point are not enough. Hard facts are needed. “just as innovative” isn’t enough in this care. Could it be that because the video game industry, because it caters to the male, is enough of a reason to select a male over a female? It’s a feminist view that because she may have equal qualifications that they should consider her and not him? Yeah, maybe a guy is who they want, what’s wrong with that? Do you know the inner workings of the companies that are contacting HIM over HER? You have observations and assumptions and not facts.… Read more »
Booth Bunnies (also called Booth Babes) are (mostly) women at gaming related conferences that basically hired as eye candy to draw (mostly) male attendees to their booths to show off their products. They often dress up as game characters or are just in branded clothing which is usually skimpy (imagine things like tiny halter tops, daisy dukes, and bikinis that are covered in game company logos).
Personally I think they distract from the actual reason for the game conference (you know, the games) and perpetuate the idea that in order draw in guys one needs sex.
Very much agreed Danny. They also have the unwelcome side effect of making it so that other hot women at a booth are sometimes ignored, even if they are actually part of the company trying to sell their games. I’ve caught myself making a b-line toward the nearest guy to have a discussion, assuming that the attractive women around were probably hired as eye candy. Tom – here’s the thing…I didn’t bring up all those examples of male privilege to start a contest of who has privilege where. The point was just to show it exists. It’s there. That’s all.… Read more »
Where do I start? @Danny .. Thanks for the clarification of the “booth bunny” I figured that was what it meant but I wasn’t sure. Having had to do many conventions, I’ve seen more than a few of them. So basically it’s marketing and a way to bring people to your booth? Oh, what horror? Years ago, I had a female manager where we had a booth for our company. We had several female reps. The female manager had t-shirts made which had the company logo is small print strategically located right at the end of the boobs. To say… Read more »
“Then affirmative action is/was nothing but discrimination shielded by laws.” – Yes. I am against affirmative action. I can see the logic behind it back in the day…but _if_ it was ever valuable, it has long outlasted it’s welcome. It should have been done away with decades ago. At the same time, though, someone shouldn’t be able to not hire someone _just_ because they aren’t the preferred ethnicity, gender, etc. We shouldn’t _force_ a company to hire a minority. But we also shouldn’t allow a company to not hire a minority _just_ because s/he is a minority. Get what I’m… Read more »
“So basically it’s marketing and a way to bring people to your booth? Oh, what horror?” The problem isn’t the existence of the sex sells mentality…because yeah it does sell. The problem is what results from it. So, like I said, it perpetuates the myth that the gaming and tech industries are only for teenage guys. I’m not saying do away with it altogether…I’m not saying we need to take sex out of video games or something ridiculous like that…I’m saying it’s so pervasive that it risks alienating a whole bunch of potential customers (and employees). Hell I know people,… Read more »
Heather writes: “and then if we take a look at like, the video games industry (which I sort of consider part of the tech industry, or at least related to it), then it’s even worse…because the assumption is still that the main audience for their product is male (and a teenager)” About 10 years ago I used to play everquest which was excellent. It was just like playing a table-top rpg like D&D. You had all the classic races like elf, dwarf, hobbit. You fought all the classic monsters like kobolds, orcs, trolls and ogres. About 7 years ago I… Read more »
Yeah I’m right there with you, John. I stopped playing WoW awhile ago.
According to Joslyn 19% of the fortune 400 charities are women. If we assume that these charities are more “family friendly” than corporate America as they are not profit driven, then we can say that they are more favorable to the “mommy track”. If we further assume that the “mommy track” does not impact women working for charities, we can determine that only 1 in 6 women can overcome the mommy track so based on women’s proportion of participation in the workforce, we can calculate about 7% representation as CEOs in corporate America. If there is some impact of the… Read more »
I would like to ask the so-called egalitarian feminists as to how feminism has ever directly benefited men? Feminism helped me let go of some dumb shit, like the idea that I always had to put together the Ikea furniture. I find it an annoying bore, but my wife loves it so that’s a household chore she takes care of. Before I became a feminist I was bound to the idea that there were some things that I “had to do” simply because I was a man, now we split up the work by who’s best suited to/most interested the… Read more »
LOL! You needed a feminist to tell you that?! Sorry but my father knew that over 50 years ago (he never put never put anything together), and he’s definitely no feminist.
The author of this opinion piece claims that men belong in the feminist circles and they should only speak for themselves in those circle. I would like to ask the so-called egalitarian feminists as to how feminism has ever directly benefited men? Why should a man put his trust in feminism? Men’s Right Movement is the love-child of feminism born from feminism f-ing numerous men.
” I don’t want men speaking for me, because I would find it patronizing if they assumed to know my experience. ” Some feminist never considered their conspiratorial rationalizations of male behavior to be patronizing. I for one would welcome women like GirlWritesWhat to speak for men in the Men’s Rights Movement along with other sympathetic women. Men are so constrained by the new gender normative behavior rules created by feminist that any complaints they have about women’s behavior are likely to be seen as misogyny. “I do not believe our society oppresses men, but I do believe it restricts… Read more »
Well written!
“I do not believe our society oppresses men..” Of course you don’t .In feminism dogma, men have never had to struggle for their place in society and have enjoyed unabashed privilege since time immortal. This is the narrative feminism needs to provide it the moral authority and ethos to pursue an agenda that is uniquely gendered and distributive among similar freedom movements. News Flash, Men HAVE historically struggled for their place in society. But we don’t call such movements “masculinism”, we call them the protestant reformation, the enlightenment, the democratic revolution, the anti-slavery movement, the labor movement, the communist revolution,… Read more »
There is no room for the male perspective in feminist circles and men well never be served by such a group.
I feel we talk a lot of semantics about what feminism is, with some feminists imagining the movement serves the liberation of all under the gender binary. But no; a movement whose very language enshrines bigoted division (“FEMinist” vs. “PATriarchy”) and celebrates naked hostility to a target group is specifically designed to exclude that target group from the conversation.
Men shouldn’t lend it credibility by enjoining feminist discourse.
Personally as a left of center progressive and a believer in compersion; I support the rights and equalities of all people. There is discrimination of all sort in our society, some of the worst being between the classes; something that our society doesn’t even recognize as we are brainwashed to believe that we live in a classless country. I work for a fortune 100 company. We have women in upper management, but they are definitely in the minority. Do they get paid the same as their male counterparts? I don’t know for sure, but highly doubt it. In the industry… Read more »
I don’t ID with any political direction as they are both rudderless and lacking in repeatable principles necessary for success. As a result, we have a mess on our hands co-created by both sides. I too work for a Fortune 100 company in the sales division, with basically runs the place. That is, no sales, no revenue, no paychecks. The top VPs are mainly female. No idea how much they make, but it’s probably way into the hundreds of thousands, and over a million for the boss lady. Do they earn as much as their male counterparts? I don’t know… Read more »
Obviously none of us on here are CEO’s. CEO’s of Fortune 100 to 500 companies are generally selected based upon their performance with their current company or others that they worked with. Board of directors are looking for their return on investments and if it happens to be a man that can give them the best bang for the buck, then so be it. I really don’t believe that it’s their “plan” to keep women out. In so far as women making less than men, studies do show that they do but not for the reasons that the feminists put… Read more »
“you may call me a feminist and I can assure you that my balls are still firmly attached to my body. ” Apparently you felt the need to point that out. Interesting. “Do they get paid the same as their male counterparts? I don’t know for sure, but highly doubt it.” Why do you doubt it? From the perspective of the company it makes no sense to hire more expensive employees if you can get the same value for a lower price. “I am also a strong supporter of the liberation of female sexuality.” How about male sexuality? Are you… Read more »
Nice caricature of a male who might have a complaint about feminism. Your ridiculous argument doesnt even address any of the many women who post on this sight who acknowledge or complain of feminism. How about you rebut things people have actually said instead of creating imaginary arguments/opponents?
“So yes, you may call me a feminist and I can assure you that my balls are still firmly attached to my body.”
That’s why it hurts when she squeezes.
“Guys worrying that a woman might have experienced a bigger dick than theirs in her slutty past. No wonder the penis enlargement industry is booming even if most of them are total scams. Come on guys, grow up and get over it! Quit watching so much porn; the majority of men in real life don’t have donkey dicks. ” Your post is loaded down with contempt for men. The misandry in you is great. Men can be insecure because they are human beings. When women complain about body image you show your support. If a man does this you lash… Read more »
Maybe you should open your tent to these GUYS? In western countries the large majority of homeless are men (75-80%), with single males particularly overrepresented.
The poor standard of writing among feminists never seizes to amaze me. Even more shocking is the total lack of quality control from within the movement or even from outside. You don’t even notice direct contradictions within one single article. “I don’t want men speaking for me, because I would find it patronizing if they assumed to know my experience. …I do not believe our society oppresses men…” Hypocrisies like this are the reason why no self respecting human (male, female or other) should support feminists. First you tell us in your title that men belong in “The Feminist” movement.… Read more »
Alright so because I am so very very opinionated…I’m going to comment on this. Here’s the thing, Emily wrote a piece where she’s saying she thinks men should join feminists. She writes an article saying she recognizes men are treated unequally and that she would like men to join her (and other feminists) in the fight for true gender equality. I will admit that her use of the terms “oppressed” and “restricted” are problematic. Perhaps it would have been more accurate to use them in the way Julie did in a comment here…..both men and women are “restricted” by gender… Read more »
@ Heather While I admit that my wording was harsh and perhaps insulting, uncivilized it was definitely not by any stretch of the imagination (otherwise I invite you to spend some time entirely without civilization to get some perspective). However, none of that has any bearing on whether or not my statements were accurate or not. “A comment that is laced with negative emotions will likely do little more than inspire negative emotions in those who disagree with him/her.” Anyone who cannot put truth before their immediate emotional reaction to some strong criticism isn’t going to contribute anything constructive anyway.… Read more »
“Anyone who cannot put truth before their immediate emotional reaction to some strong criticism isn’t going to contribute anything constructive anyway.” Yeah but my point is that your immediate emotional reaction triggers other emotional reactions, until eventually we’re left snarking at each other. Really sitting down and considering the perspective and comments from someone I disagree with takes a bit of work…some effort. Having to first remind myself not to get pissed off at mean comments just makes it tiring. I am perhaps a sensitive person…but that’s sort of my point. In an anonymous internet exchange you (and I) don’t… Read more »
“I am a feminist, actually, but I’m an egalitarian feminist.” Had to chuckle at this. You do realize that this statement includes the assertion that feminism is, by itself, not egalitarian, don’t you? Never mind, I’m sure it was just a blip and won’t try to suggest it was a Freudian slip or use it against you. Just having some fun – of which there desperately little in gender discussions. “I think, Adi, you are getting too hung up on her use of the terms “oppression” and “restricted.”” Well one has to be pretty deliberate to think of a new… Read more »
With regards to tone of voice: here’s the thing..GMP isn’t a feminist site, it’s not an MRM site either. It’s a place where, theoretically, everyone (whether you associate with those groups or not), can come and discuss what it means to be a good men. And, because feminism is not nearly as gynocentric as it once was, that includes some discussion of feminism. Hopefully, though, this could be a space where we all treat each other civilly and politely. I always attempt to do that…I always attempt to leave any annoyance or frustration I have out of my comments. I… Read more »
I apologize that is long.
I think if you are really serious about egalitarianism then you must be prepared to ditch words like feminism because they cannot be reconciled with each other anymore than the idea of an “atheist belief system”. If you want to focus on specific areas where egalitarianism is lacking, then you can always add that description without resorting to labeling. That way you underline that your ultimate goal is egalitarianism despite specialization. My other problem with that concept is that, in order for it to work, there must be common ground among those various groups but in order to find common… Read more »
“Me join the GMP? You mean as an author? I would be kind of flattered and I would promise to behave myself too ”
I’m actually on my way to sleep at the minute or I’d comment on the rest of this. I just wanted to clarify. I don’t have any authority to offer something like that, sorry for the confusion. I meant – why not join us in creating an egalitarian movement. Like…as in instead of tearing the down, why not try some constructive suggestions. 🙂
Oh oh but I’m pretty sure anyone can submit an article via this page: https://goodmenproject.com/about/
At the bottom of the page it provides you with links if you want to submit an article or an article idea. 😀
We love new writers. Email me at [email protected]
I just lost an entire freaking reply. Hot damnit I do not like this refresh. 🙁 Anyway…here’s the gist: Huzzah, I look forward to reading your first article. 🙂 I get that not all feminists would be willing to join an egalitarian movement. Us egalitarian feminists are a small group already, so it’s not like the MRAs would end up joining an already huge group of people. The earth and moon analogy is pretty cool (I was way in astronomy as a kid). But it’s inaccurate, because like I said, egalitarian feminists aren’t some huge group…and we’re the ones who’d… Read more »
Feminist (women) mhave had the benefit of spouting off at themouth for 30 years as to how they have been treated. Men have had NO platform. Yeah, damn straight we’re yelling from the roof tops as to how we’ve been screwed over. Yet it’s still not being heard. Many men have their head up their behinds and are clueless. It’s not until they lost their kids, their job, their money and are looking at being locked up that thay may start to listen. They need to know what’s going on and it’s for darn sure main stream society isn’t goung… Read more »
Great points Adi. What is in it for men. This tiny minority of manhating bigots seem to be driving the whole damn ship with zero opposition from the much larger group of kinder equity feminists–at least when we look at the political arm of feminism. The women are passing some very bad laws that have demonstrable harm to millions of men and their children. Sometimes the cynical side of me thinks it is an unspoken win win agreement: the kinder feminists don’t interrupt the bigots from doing their work of institutionalized pedestalization of women into laws, and the kinder feminists… Read more »
Waaaa. <— sarcastic and rude comment. She wrote aqn article that has nothing to do with men and their issues. She wrote an article to make her look like "meathead" in All in the Family. " Ohh look at me, I care, I'm reaching out. She wrote this on a MEN'S site where MEN would read it. Did you honestly think tghat non-feminist men would fall for this? Nonetheless, it did allow a platform for you and other feminists to look like these glowing angels who are trying to reach out to these poor men. Feminist tent is aq FEMINIST… Read more »
Heather: “As men, we do tend to collude in some feminists’ belief that men don’t hurt, however, every time we refuse (or are unable) to express what we are actually feeling–other than anger. ” This is a myth that goes back much further than feminism. It’s actually quite a traditional belief that men aren’t emotional. Its not that feminism started the myth. Its that feminists have no problem letting certain myths go unchallenged when it suits them. Which is why you’ll see some feminists go on about how they “know” the majority of female abuse/rape victims are suffering in silence… Read more »
I agree, Heather, that the belief that “men aren’t emotional” goes way back. Anger is about the only emotion that men are allowed to express in many macho cultures like ours. But that has not always been the case. Odysseus, for instance, regularly expresses profound grief, and men in war famously can be amazingly tender with a wounded buddy. It’s just that it takes more to drag some of those other emotions out of us. But they are there. Never think men do not “have” emotions. We are just less adept at expressing them (or perhaps such a wide range… Read more »
Actually Larry I’m not sure if your mention of Odysseus and tender moments with an injured buddy are remnants of the past. These days people don’t have a problem with the sight of men hugging each other, crying, and trying to comfort each other in times like that. If anything such a display of tenderness is treated as exception regards to the range of emotion men are allowed to have. A guy can cry over a limited set of things before people start laying into him and questioning his manhood. And its pretty much limited to death/injury of loved ones,… Read more »
OK, Danny, I’m busted. I’m 71 years old and a grandfather. My son and daughter keep reminding me that things are changing. And when I was in a men’s group in 1972 (we did it because our wives were all out in their “consciousness-raising” groups but it never worked well), I distinctly remember feeling pretty edgy when we would hug each other. It was rare for men to hug in public at that time. Obviously that has hugely changed, as has the degree of emotionality allowed us. My kids are right as usual. But here’s my question: is the change… Read more »
Danny: Yeah it is true that a lot of feminists do let the myths that suit them continue. Larry: Um…well I’m not a man, but I’ll comment on your second question. I don’t think that men inherently feel or express a smaller range of emotions than women. I only say this from personal experience. I am someone who actually doesn’t tend to express much emotion in public, and I’m a woman. And I’ve had friends who are guys (like traditionally masculine guys) who will cry in movies all the time. I, personally, think it’s mostly a cultural thing. But then…I… Read more »
Heather, As a man who finally after 40 years and some significant personal pain learned to cry in movies (and now does all the time), I would like to believe you are right that there is no “inherent” difference in how males and females feel (that’s one thing) or express (that’s another) emotion. But we do have different challenges as men than women. For one thing, as sons of mothers rather than daughters of mothers, our developmental trajectories are significantly different–more on that if you are interested. For another, our brains really are structured differently from before birth. The male… Read more »
My ‘everything is cultural’ reference was a bit of a throw away….a slightly self-depricating joke about how I tend to argue for the cultural explanation of things. I do, actually, recognize that there are biological differences between males and females. I just don’t think they are as striking or as polemic as we might think. And I do know plenty of women who dislike the idea that women are the same as men. (So that works both ways). With regards to the whole male brain vs female brain…I’ve read articles that both support and discredit this idea. It’s not my… Read more »
But here’s my question: is the change really all that broad in the culture or is it predominantly among liberal, white, college-educated men? I think the change is broad in culture but don’t let that fool into think its totally wide spread. Here is a post I did a while back on a picture of two black guys with one resting on the the other (http://dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.com/2010/08/downtime.html). Even among other black people this picture (and the guys in it of course) was called every bad thing under the sun. if society actually does allow, or encourage us to express our emotions… Read more »
Knowing that people flipped out about a picture like that just makes me sad.
Thanks for your thoughtful voice in all this dialogue, Danny. And thanks for posting that picture with your commentary. It is, as Heather says, very sad.
Any time Larry.
Yes it is sad.
Men have all the emotions women have but are unable to let them out. One emotion that feminists will capitalize on is “anger.” Look at thiose bad men and their anger. I work with adolescent male and anger is right up front with them but after months of work, they realize the anger is actually secondary to another emotion that society, influanced by feminists, don’t want to surface. You mean a man in a divorce is more then just “angry?” You mean these men want more then just pay back? Let’s take a look at society and how they out… Read more »
Heather (and Julie too) I can’t reply to this comment directly because there is no button, but I hope you see it. “Now…whether “male privilege” is valid or not, is another question entirely. I’d say yes, but then so is “female privilege.” I am an educated, middle class, white, woman. In many ways I have advantages over middle class, white, educated, men…” Thank you. Thank you for not brushing this aside as “benevolent sexism” or some freak anomaly of “The Patriarchy,” some glitch in the Complete Oppression of Women that accidentally worked out in your favor. (heh.. C.O.W. ahem… anyway…)… Read more »
Um, your welcome I guess. 🙂 It’s just the way it is. lol.
But yeah, that’s why gender equality is so difficult….we’re all unequal in equally different ways. Or maybe we’re all equal in unequal ways.
Sorry boys, but you will always be second class citizens amongst the male auxiliary. You may find some egalitarians, but it’s mostly about women’s power. You’ll be accepted if you are submissive.