—
Ariel Chesler believes that men who recognize and write about their own male gaze and internalized sexism should be applauded and not shamed.
—
Andy Hinds wrote a while back about being a feminist and the father of two daughters, and his continued objectification of women he encounters in daily life. Hinds’ honesty about how his own behavior bothers him was generally greeted with disgust and derision.
As Hinds later admitted on his blog, Beta Dad, the intended humor of his piece was lost on his audience. It was not clear where the piece was serious and where it was meant to be humorous. This is evidenced by the outrage at his non-serious suggestion that he would limit his objectification by cloaking women in “imaginary burqas.”
Amanda Marcotte expressed concern that Hinds believed “that feminism is really about policing men’s thoughts and scrubbing them clean of anything resembling sexual desire.” Marcotte then advised Hinds that it was okay to fantasize about women “as long as you respect their right to not know that’s what you’re doing.”
As a feminist man myself, and the father of two daughters, I think Hinds deserves applause his honesty and for raising this topic. For, I too, have objectified women that I passed on the street or the grocery store or the gym. It bothers me too. And, this does not mean I am not a feminist.
Hinds’ critics agree that sexual fantasies are both normal and okay as long as the target of your fantasy is not impacted. Marcotte and others suggested that discretion is the key. Of course, sexuality is normal and healthy, as is sexual fantasy, and feminism is not meant to limit our sexuality.
♦◊♦
Yet, there are three concepts that Hinds and his detractors couldn’t quite articulate that are helpful here: Internalized Sexism, Contradictory Reality, and Work in Progress.
We have all (even feminists) internalized sexism. This means that even if, like Hinds, you celebrate and support the advancement of women and equality in every sphere, you have also internalized the sexism that is pervasive in our culture. And, this is not limited to men. All of us internalize the messages we see about women. I worry, for example, that my daughters will internalize the message about women they get from all the princesses marketed to them: You are an object; you must be pretty; You must be rescued by a handsome, wealthy man. This may manifest in other ways, such as when women dislike and try to take down other women who are leaders; they can only accept male leaders or men in positions of power. Or, it may manifest in a woman’s self-hatred and limitation of self.
For men, even feminist men, internalized sexism places our normal sexual desires into hyperdrive and takes our male gaze and multiplies it to the nth power. All of the pornography, movies, television commercials, and music videos that surround us, which in fact are speaking mainly to men, have an impact on us. All of these show us women as sexual objects posed for our pleasure. And, even if we would never gaze at the real women in our life (our mothers, our sisters, our wives, our daughters) that way, we are taught to gaze at other women exactly in that manner.
This leads us to the concept of a contradictory reality. This means that all of us live with inconsistencies. For some, like Jonathan Safran Foer, it may mean eating meat for years while being against animal suffering. For me, it was my immersing in deeply misogynist rap lyrics and hip hop culture, even as I learned how to be a man from my mother, a feminist leader, and other wonderful strong women. So, even as I proudly marched at abortion rallies, attended feminist Seders, and learned how to chop wood from Kate Millett, I sang lyrics containing the words “bitch” and “ho” countless times and began to see women through a super-male-gaze.
We must accept that sexism exists, that we have internalized it, and that we are works in progress trying to minimize the impact sexism has on our daily lives, including on our sexual fantasies. Being a feminist does not mean being perfect. Male feminists need to grapple with our male privilege, our internalized sexism, and, as Mychal Denzel Smith has discussed, we need to do the emotional work of feminism by challenging ourselves and the other men in our lives to change our language and gaze regarding women.
Finally, we arrive at the fact that we are all works in progress. Hinds has done the important work of sharing his internalized sexism. He is to be applauded for exposing his contradictory reality and sharing his personal challenge of confronting his own sexism.
This post originally appeared at On The Issues Magazine
—
An odd observation is that Chesler’s mother, Phyllis Chesler, is well-known for disputing extreme approaches to feminism while remaining a feminist. She for example rejects the “false consciousness of victimization” that feminism sometimes incorporates. I think she might have trouble with the article.
Male Feminist is a contradiction in terms. Despite her disclaimer, according to Amanda Marcotte
you are the problem simply for being a man. You must constantly apologize for being male and look
to Feminism to tell you how to behave.
People analyze and name feminism on a conatant basis without naming its counterpoint, MASCULINISM. This writing isn’t addressing the “male gaze” as much as it is interrogating the masculinist gaze. Get your terminology right when you put ‘feminism’ or any other body of theory under a microscope.
/shameless self-promoting (but I think justifiable) warning I’m fascinated that no one in this discussion has yet brought up the fact that GMP posted my piece that touches on some of these issues (i.e. the hypocritical click-baiting and male bashing of authors like Hanna Rosin and others) the day before. I think Ariel’s points are well taken, and don’t strike me as demeaning or denying the fact that there are issues around maltreatment of men (both individually and as a class) that many in the “feminist” movement need to seriously address. But that’s not even remotely close to the point… Read more »
So male sexuality is wrong/bad in the end and we should feel bad about that.
I was in a rush but I think I should add on that.
Mostly with this part.
“For men, internalized sexism places our normal sexual desires into hyperdrive and takes our male gaze and multiplies it to the nth power.”
So our sexuality is because we are sexist. We should not feel good about being sexist so we should feel bad about our sexuality. Any helpful tips for overcoming this? Maybe cold showers, Gram crackers, or boyscouts will help?
I suppose that’s one way you could read that sentence. Another is that we have our natural, healthy sexuality, but that some of the things our culture teaches us affects that in unhealthy ways. For example, we’re often taught that as men we should want sex all the time, even if we don’t. Our sexuality is often framed as “more is always better” in terms of frequency and partners, with those numbers being a metric for our worth as men. We don’t have to be that way, and for many men that conception of male sexuality is harming them. There’s… Read more »
Dude, male sexuality isn’t the issue here! Sexuality and objectification are two different things. Let’s use this hyperbolic game for a sec (I’m in no way equating the two types of sexuality and objectification so don’t get your undies twisted): pedophiles have both sexuality and objectification going on–they have a sexual appetite AND are objectifying non-consenting children. You can have objectification without sexuality. For instance, dehumanizing a person by making them the butt of every joke (I think of the typical fat guy in the office who gets made fun of and is not seen as human). You can also… Read more »
It’s not hard to see how inconsistencies arise. The more important questions are a) are you actively trying to improve your mindset do that fewer inconsistencies happen and b) are you trying to make positive changes within our society so that we can become more inline with our ideals? If the answers here are yes, then I’ve got no issues.
I never know what to do with this kind of polemic. Can the author provide some guidance? When does the author’s concept of acceptable sexual fantasy cross the line? 5 second fantasies are okay, but 10 second fantasies are misogynist? Is there an objective demarcation? If a woman strips a unknown man naked in her mind, is she engaging the same kind of objectionable behavior that is described herein? Policing sexual psychology is an issue, especially when you suggest that there is one, ‘natural’ level of male sexualization. Maybe the author could include a section describing what he considers healthy… Read more »
Or…you could just do what the vast majority of humans do—ignore stuff like this and behave in the way that is most comfortable to you.
I think he means when fantasy turns to action (passive action or aggressive action)
Hey Ladies, lets talk about being Gentlemen.
Same dynamic, different era.
Ungentleman, I’ve talked about being gentleman, here, https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/an-old-fashioned-gentleman-alroy/.
And Ariel, I love this piece, and I love Andy’s piece. I was saddened by the response to it.
I love this piece, I thought Andy’s was okay. I love Andy and know him somewhat well, and the sweet guy that he is in the world didn’t come through in his piece. I agree with Marcotte about what is your job as a person who lusts after another – generally, keep it to yourself (unless in an established relationship, casual or formal, wherein you exchange conversation about your lust). Good rule. I know what Andy meant to say, because we’d discussed it a lot (as it says in his piece) but I didn’t think it came across as clearly… Read more »
I was being a little cryptic, sorry about that.
What I mean is that there is gentlemanly male to female benevolent sexism, and there is make feminist / feminist expected male to female benevolent sexism.
These types of benevolent sexism are the same thing, just one is the old version and one is the undated version.
Further, when men have low levels of benevolent sexism, see treating women as equals and the sort of attitude that mra’s have – its misperceived as misogny.
https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/bitstream/handle/10012/6958/Yeung_Amy.pdf?sequence=1
We also internalize sexism about men as well. I was hoping that you would touch on that as well as female privilege toward the end.
Diz, discussing the issue around how men may internalize sexism in their daily lives, doesn’t take away anything from you or other men or the issues you may face differently or jointly.
Perhaps you should write an article on how we internalize sexism about men. I’d be interested in reading that. Right now though, I’d like to see a focus on what the topic is *here* so that we can respect *this* topic that is being talked about. Do you find that you internalize sexism toward women? In what ways? How do you approach it?
Erin, Diz’s point stands on its own merits. It needs neither policing or supplementary questions from you.
That’s right Michael. It does stand on it’s own merits. Which is why I suggested that he write a serious article about internalized sexism about men. An article I said that I would be interested in reading and focusing on men during that time. This is such a deep and complex issue. You can not possibly expect that all the nuances and issues and differences between men and women, and there are many of them that we should not ignore that exist, can be covered in one small article under an umbrella of asexuality. My questions are completely valid in… Read more »
Well, I don’t think you will get an article out of me, because that is a long session of typing that I doubt will be published. But, if you’d like to continue here, then assuming my posts pass moderation I would be happy to do so.
I’d say that I probably do internalize some degree of sexism, though certainly more now than before. I would honestly say that before I became interested in the gender debate, I had none at all.
You never know until you try Diz. And it’s a shame that you aren’t interested in writing an article about something you clearly feel needs to be discussed. That really deserves it’s own space and own voice seperate from this article. I would love to read an aritlce about the way men feel like they suffer internalized sexism. But no, I am not interested in having that discussion here. That’s not fair to this piece. If you however *here*, want to talk about what this article is refering to, I’d really enjoy to hear your thoughts and opinions on that… Read more »
It is quite relevant when many of the female feminists who seek to police the words of males have their own unexamined sexism against men in play, in much the same way that hypocrisy discredits anyone.
Orish, this article is about one thing. No article can be about all things. Ariel is under no obligation to explore sexism against men.
It is a logical fallacy, and intellectually dishonest, to suggest that because Ariel didn’t bring up internalized stereotypes against men that this is an indication that they don’t exist.
That’s just not true. If I write about sexism in The Walking Dead, that doesn’t mean sexism in Mad Men doesn’t exist.
I think it could be argued that continued refusal to discuss sexism against men in discussions about sexism in general is, in itself, sexist.
Beautifully put Diz.
Refusal by whom? The author? Just because he didn’t choose to mention it doesn’t mean that he’s refusing to talk about it.
No one person is obligated to take up any cause.
Diz, based on what I gathered from the article, the author was confronting his own internalized sexism specifically toward women in comparision to his identification with Feminism. He also mentioned another man, Hinds, who also was considering his own internalized sexism toward women specifically, as well. This article was actually very specific in the type of internalized sexism the author wanted to address. If you re-read the article, you will see that there is a strong specific focus on the way men, and all of us, internalize sexism specifically toward women. And we all do. Even I do it. Why… Read more »
Re: “this article is about one thing. No article can be about all things. Ariel is under no obligation to explore sexism against men.” Of course not. That’s not the underlying issue. Millions of articles have explored sexism against women, and when someone asks, “What about sexism against men” the response is along the line of “the writer is under no obligation to explore sexism against men.” Hence, very little gets written about sexism against men. Many commenters do want to know about it. Here’s a primer: “The Doctrinaire Institute for Women’s Policy Research: A Comprehensive Look at Gender Equality”… Read more »
There are certainly a lot of articles out there that have explored sexism against women. And many times, when I see one come up, there is bound to be someone who is upset by the topic. We still live in a world that deals out a heavy hand of sexism toward women. It’s still a worthy conversation to have. Why not have it AND then take actions for more articles about sexism toward men to be written? Why try to discourage this conversation because you wish there were more articles about sexism for men? There is plenty of room for… Read more »
Joanna, I didn’t claim anywhere that Ariel said that internalised stereotypes against men didn’t exist. Is it intellectually honest to strawman? My point is that simply that it is RELEVANT. Why, for example, should he or anyone be expected to put up with moralising from someone like Amanda Marcotte? He’s not done anything like she has in terms of sexism, like insisting that people accused of a crime are definitely guilty despite knowing little more than superficial details about them (like their gender) – and refused to apologise for it. Saying we should be taking accusations of sexism seriously from… Read more »
Forgot the actual link ^_^
Is this really about wanting both angles of an article covered at exactly the same time? If there instead had been and article that focused exclusively on sexism against men, would we even be having this discussion? How many men here would have truly had a problem with a piece that exclusively focused on the unique problems to men? How many of you would have said, “Woah, wait a minute, you need to also include how this affects women from this angle as well.” I have never seen an article that exclusively focused on men at the GMP, where a… Read more »
When internalised sexism against men would go some way to explaining the reaction the original piece received, then it is scarcely irrelevant to bring it up – the issue is relevance, not some misguided notion of balance. Doyin’s article brought up both kinds of racism because both were relevant to the situation. Racism against women was not. And I think it’s a bit much to effectively say “everyone has internalised sexism, but as ever we’re going to ignore the fact that this might apply to the people doing the criticising of a male gender issues writer”. It seemed clear that… Read more »
Erin, this article is about internalised sexism against men, the authors internalised sexism against himself in fact. The whole idea that a man’s normal desire response towards a woman, one which most women go to a great deal of trouble to elicit, is somehow ‘wrong’ is nothing more than an internalisation of the feminist demonisation of men. You don’t see anyone complaining about the way women sexually objectify men, in fact that is seen as an expression of empowerment. What has been lost, in the hysteria and propaganda, is the distinction between desire and objectification. To the most primitive (reptilian)… Read more »
That humans have tendencies is not the issue here. The issue is whether or not our society encourages or discourages negative tendencies. No one would argue that, for example, selfishness may have biological roots. But, as a society, we’ve determined that unchecked selfishness is a hindrance to the society that we want to create. As a result, we teach kids to share and – miraculously – adults tend to be less selfish than babies. Even if all humans have a tendency to objectify others, that doesn’t necessarily have to be how adults behave. Just as people can be happy without… Read more »
“God made man in his own image, and man has been trying to return the favour ever since” – Voltaire (1) right and wrong according to who? nearly every great human oppression and crime against humanity is perpetrated by people who think they are above nature, who think they know better than life itself how people should be and then try to impose that. Nature is balance, otherwise our species could not have survived. We don’t learn pro social behaviour, it’s part of our DNA experienced as empathy and intrinsic human values. (2) Women aren’t discouraged from objectifying men, they… Read more »
Adam, sorry for such a long response. It’s hard for me to express myself in limited words. So hope you have a little time to read this. I don’t think it’s a man’s desire for a woman that is being called “wrong”. It’s the impact that society, media, extreme, hyper and disturbingly sexist images of sexuality, peddled 24/7, rewiring those primitive brains you speak of, strongly impacts the way we look at each other. This goes beyond just “sexuality”. Yes, being attracted to a woman physically is normal. Magazines, movies, videos on end of never ending images of young, perfect… Read more »
Powerful response and I think you for it. However I have to point out almost all of this men already know. We know what a trophy wife is. We know what a gold digger is. We also know it is shallow to date a women just because of how she looks. However this won’t change the simple fact that we might find her fun or attractive trying to socially engineer and that out of us is probably going to take electrode’s or religion. I have no desire to by cornflakes it send my kid to boy scouts to try and… Read more »
I strongly disagree that this is something “almost” all men already know. Or women for that matter. Here is a list of things I have seen and experienced regarding sexism through my life: 1.Boys who snapped the bras of the girls with the larger chests in junior high. 2.Boys who made comments about our bodies directly to our faces. Some girls where told they had “dick-sucking” lips, or needed bigger boobs or needed to loose weight. They were just boys and their beliefs stemmed from a society that told them that they could judge girls and women based on their… Read more »
Your list is nice, and you are right… sexism is real.. “Our world is not a sexually healthy place. It’s past time we are honest about that. ” Your right it is really not…. That hardly means I am going to let anyone put me to the knife to “fix” me. “I also do not want to control anyone’s sexuality.” I am going to be very blunt about this…. I do not trust you. I do not trust the author of this article. I do not trust anyone with a agenda about sexuality. Men and women have had far to… Read more »
HI Erin, I always enjoy your comments, your really strive for balance and rationality in how you express yourself. We are not in disagreement on most things. The more we mature personally, as a result of age and education, the less we objectify others. It’s why most sexual violence happens between young people. I don’t offer the biological argument as a defense for bad behaviour, only as a counter to the feminist ‘social constructionist’ view of bad behaviour as being culturally determined. I agree that our society is sexually warped, I personally find most fashion magazines with their over-sexualisation of… Read more »
Adam, I think that’s a compelling response and I don’t disagree. But I don’t think you and Andy or Ariel totally disagree either, you’re just coming at it from a different perspective. I think we can all agree that there is nothing wrong with lusting after the people we are attracted to, and I think we can all agree that the problem becomes when we make that lust someone else’s problem by leering or bothering them in any way or expecting something to happen. That goes for men and women. I like Ariel’s analysis, but I get what you’re saying… Read more »
Hi Joanna. First let me congratulate you on having the courage to post as yourself, I respect a person who is willing to be accountable for their opinions. Second, though i agree with your point, let me point out that you have the privilege of being an attractive woman, of being the one who is mostly pursued (and yes I do know that there are costs to that), and therefore of not having to negotiate the tricky waters of being the pursuer. Men generally have to walk a fine line between being assertive and demonstrating their interest and their ‘dominance’… Read more »
You said “Warren Farrell” and my interest in the conversation has waned. I’m sorry, I’m not a fan of Mr. Farrell and have no interest in that conversation.
OK. you are entitled to your prejudices.
By prejudice I think you mean opinion.
Totally valid points you make but I think is best left for another article for another day.