Men can’t sit next to unaccompanied children on Virgin Airlines Australia, according to the policy handed to firefighter Johnny McGirr.
Whether you spell it “paedophile” or “pedophile,” it’s a dirty word. Yet airlines are calling half their adult customers potential child molesters when they maintain policies preventing unaccompanied minors from being seated next to adult male airline customers. Boing Boing’s Cory Doctorow reported on firefighter Johnny McGirr being asked to move from his seat for precisely this reason, after McGirr wrote about it on Rant Nation. A stewardess on the Sydney to Brisbane flight asked a young woman to change places with McGirr because he “wasn’t allowed to sit next to the children. That was the explanation given.”
“It was an uncomfortable situation and I felt ashamed which was a weird feeling because I hadn’t done anything wrong,” McGirr writes.
Doctorow blames the way men are still seen as suspicious in the presence of children on the media repeatedly blaring “stranger danger” news articles when the real danger of child abuse usually lurks in the home, not with a random stranger on a commercial flight. McGirr wonders if internet culture has taken us so far from reality that we no longer recognize what is a genuine threat.
What do you think? Is this a sexist and unfair policy?
If airlines were truly concern about the protection of the unaccompanied minor, they’d take a hit on the seat next to that child and seat no one there. Bam!
If forcing a certain action on every member of a group because of the actions of a few members of that group is legit, we have a really great place we don’t want “to go there”.
I am a man with 2 daughters and think this is a great policy. I have no problem moving for this reason. Even if you stick me right next to the bathroom! I keep hearing discriminatory. Really? I read a story 4 or 5 years back about men, not women, molesting girls and women on flights. The odds are staggeringly higher for a man to molest before a woman does. This is a case of profiling that should be adhered to. GOOD JOB VIRGIN!!! They have been my favorite airline up to now, and they keep raising the bar higher… Read more »
The reason people are saying discriminatory is because it’s not just playing the odds that men are more likely to harm children. No such a policy takes the odds and uses them as backup to presume worst faith in all men. And for some odd reason it seems that such discrimination (in the realm of gender) is okay when it’s being done to men. If an airline really wanted to “protect children” then why not reserve a few seats near the back of the plan next to the attendant staff? (Such seating would only be reserved when there are actual… Read more »
I am a man with 2 daughters and think this is a great policy. I have no problem moving for this reason. Even if you stick me right next to the bathroom! I keep hearing discriminatory. Really? Interesting response there Trent. But…. I have to ask, does you view only apply to Virgin in flight, or does it apply to all forms of Public Transport? You mention you have daughters – Good Man You! ….and what is your view of Sons? Are they lesser people? How would you react to your 17year old son (not an unaccompanied minor under Virgin… Read more »
paedophiles should be locked up and the key thrown away at the very least! sure more acts of paedophilia are caused by men than by women, but to discriminate against all men based on the acts of what must be a miniscule percentage of the male population is unjustifiable and outright offensive. what next: single men can’t use the bus if an unaccompanied child is on it? single men must detour half a block around kindergartens? single men can’t enjoy some quiet time in a park by themselves? as for virgin and their poorly thought out policy, the answer is… Read more »
how long do you think it’ll be before this policy forces an airline to move a minority male away from a white child.
One wonders whose excrement will hit the oscillator first.
Oh and by the way society can’t simultaneously be in favor of policies like this, and complain that men don’t help with childcare enough. It’s one or the other, not both.
It’s not that men are automatically assumed to be paedophiles; it’s that the safety of the child is more important than the feelings of the adult male.
You are all worried about the adult male’s feelings being hurt.
And nobody appears to be the slightest bit concerned about the fact that paedohiles are overwhelmingly men.
I say that men should put aside their hurt feelings for the greater good, which is to make sure that no paedophile ends up sitting next to a child.
Just a few corrections to make ….. It’s not that men are automatically assumed to be paedophiles; … … well sorry but the urban mythology and supposed received wisdom has been just that for some time. You are all worried about the adult male’s feelings being hurt. Nice try at dismissal, but it does not work. No one has said that – but concern as to how the negative mythological stereotypes impacts both men and children has been raised. Your chosen words hark back to the issues of victim blaming – man queries issue – mythology roles out – mythology… Read more »
Before 1984, it was assumed that women couldn’t possibly, physically and psychologically be pedophiles. They weren’t studied as perpetrators, ever.
Assume something doesn’t exist…and then claim it’s not an issue. Yes, that’s science, right?
I mean, we still think chemical castration is the number one effective cure for pedophilia…must work wonder on women.
… and of course the It’s only men assumes (oh so wrongly) that all paedophiles are over the age of 18! It’s fascinating how age gets played out, and how the assumptions that a person of legal status “Child” can’t be a paedophile also gets bandied about with great abandon. So some should consider that sitting children next to children is also a gross danger in flight! One has to wonder how some would react to a person positing the view that all women over the age of 40 are not to be trusted around young males? I saw a… Read more »
I say that men should put aside their hurt feelings for the greater good, which is to make sure that no paedophile ends up sitting next to a child. Since MediaHound has addressed the rest of your comment quite nicely I’ll just come in right here. You say that the greater good is making sure that no child molester ends up sitting next to a child right? Take a look at this story. Based on your line of logic we should want to keep both of them from sitting next to a child right? But one is a man and… Read more »
Thank you, voice of reason.
What’s reasonable about sitting a female pedophile next to a child?
” it’s that the safety of the child is more important than the feelings of the adult male.” No, I think I’m totally with you on this one. I’m just saying we should weigh all the facts when we consider the safety and well-being of the child. Maybe men are more likely to be pedophiles, but also maybe men are also more likely to be scientific or artistic geniuses; he’s certainly more likely to have won a nobel prize -perhaps he can impart some memorable wisdom on my child during the flight. A strange man is also more likely to… Read more »
Some years ago, a young girl in Britain (3yo, iirc) drowned in a pound. A truckdriver said he had seen her wandering around but was afraid to do anything for fear of prosecution. Thing is, if he’d kept her from drowning…she wouldn’t have drowned and his explanations of why her had her by the hand would have seemed thin. When I’m in public and I see a kid who seems to be in some kind of difficulty, I never approach. I either tell a cop or ask a woman–presuming my wife isn’t with me–to check it out. This kind of… Read more »
As a man, I’ve frequently been made to feel unwelcome in the presence of children. If this is the airline’s policy, they should have arranged the seating at the check-in desk so that their male customers wouldn’t have to deal with the airline’s issues.
This is a clearly discriminatory policy would never exist if it were directed at women. Ironically, the only case of a child alleging abuse during a flight is of a woman attempting to sexually assault a 14-year-old boy.
Jacob – there is background to that story that brings it’s credibility very much into question. I’m not saying that the incident did not happen, but the court record shows that the case was dropped with no settlement – and there appear to be links to other family members activities.
That men are automatically suspect and on the flipside that women are automatically safe. Encourages incorrect threat perception in both adult and children’s minds. as 1. The greatest danger is from the men and women that the child already knows. 2. Defaulting women to be ‘autosafe’ in the same manner that male authority figures were ‘autosafe’, allows abuse like we saw in the scandals of the last 20yrs to go undetected and unprevented(as it is not even consciously acknowledged as a possibility) . Where reporting children were disbelieved because, “it is impossible he interfered with you. Dont you know who… Read more »
This is totally wrong and an outrage to men. I will add one caveat: men watching porn on planes. Sorry to bring that one up again, but the whole men/porn/plane thing makes my blood boil, and since my own daughter at age 8 was seated next to a man watching porn, and a few commenters on this site thought that was ok, I have a VERY strong reaction to that. So, seat random men next to kids on planes. Do not assume they are pedophiles. But the ground rule is NO PORN next to children. Reasonable?
Fair enough. I’m all for not exposing children to porn. I just wish this bullshit about assuming worst faith in men when it comes being near children gets dropped
Lori, you mean “people” watching porn on planes. Appreciate that you recognize the blatant descrimination against men sitting next to UAMs, but then you display the very bigotry and fear of men that such a policy originates from.
Well Lori – I do remember the debate well! But then again, it was triggered by that Supposed Bastion of Supposed Consumer Choice, Michael O’Leary of Riotair … sorry … Ryanair, and his idea of selling porn to passengers in flight. Odd – but as Riotair is a European business – and European law would make exposing children to porn a sexual offence and prosecutable as child abuse, it was all a publicity stunt – something Riotair is famous for – and as usual Dreary O’Leary succeeded. He also claimed that Riotair was to install standing seats and charge £4.00… Read more »
@ Lori Day
“But the ground rule is NO PORN next to children.”
I would hope that common sense and decency would be sufficient to stop that and it wouldn’t necessitate a rule, but if others could see the screen, I would have a problem with porn on flights period. I don’t believe that anyone should be subjected to watching porn without their consent. I’m assuming that your daughter was in a position where seeing the porn was not reasonably avoidable. If there isn’t sufficient privacy to prevent other passengers from viewing it, it shouldn’t be allowed.
John, I agree. But I find that when I take that position, I am soon being labeled a frigid, pearl-clutching feminazi by the pro-porn set, and it gets really tiresome, so it was easier to ask if we could agree to not having it next to children. I believe it does not belong on planes or ANY public space, but apparently that position inflames a lot of people, and I get tired of the battle. Thanks for your comment. Some of us have perfectly healthy sex lives and still believe porn does not belong on planes or in other public… Read more »
The airlines have the idea this makes kids safer. From which we deduce they have the idea that men are a threat to UAM. From where did this idea come? Either they’ve had direct experience with it, or somebody sold it to them. In the latter case, who would that be?
Oh I believe that trying to get to the bottom of that set of questions is a non-starter. I have spoken to people who travelled as UM’s back in the 20’s and 30’s – flying about the globe to the far reaches of the British Empire – parents working in New Zealand, Australia, Hong Kong, India, Across Africa and the Caribbean – and it was school holidays. It could take days with many stops, and they flew all over! I have one friend who used to fly between the UK and Papua New Guinea (Parents worked at Panguna Mine) in… Read more »
“The airlines have the idea this makes kids safer. From which we deduce they have the idea that men are a threat to UAM. From where did this idea come? Either they’ve had direct experience with it, or somebody sold it to them. In the latter case, who would that be?”
If a company paid female employees less than male employees (not even as a matter of policy), would you wonder if they had personal experience with female employees producing less or whether someone else convinced them of it?
I love this: “Airplanes in general seem to make people to strange things!” – but it’s back to front! People in general do strange things, but people are not normally in a flying sardine tin! The Proximity magnifies the issues. I’m surprised that it has taken so long for this story to feature. It’s been about for years – just Google “airline unaccompanied minor” to see who is up to what! – Southwest – Delta – US Air – KLM …. the list goes on and on and on and on, and when they get into code shares it gets… Read more »
“Whether you spell it “paedophile” or “pedophile,” it’s a dirty word. Yet airlines are calling half their adult customers potential child molesters…”
Wait, a pedophile is an adult, who is primarily sexually attracted to children, this is a sexual orientation. Neither is a pedophile necessarily a child molester nor is a child molester necessarily a pedophile. Similarly as you do here, Justin, we could use sexual person as a synonym for rapist.
The policy is obviously nuts and it wouldn’t even be debatable, if the group which was discriminated against wouldn’t be seen as a “privileged” one.
Alberich: “Wait, a pedophile is an adult, who is primarily sexually attracted to children, this is a sexual orientation.”
Hell no, Alberich.
Pedophilia is an illness and it should be treated that way. Yes, not all pedophiles are child molestors or predators. However, It’s really pushing it to label something akin to being homosexual.
Eagle34, I am by no means an expert in human biology, but as far as I know it is debatable, that pedophilia is a sexual orientation. See for example: http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/explaining-pedophilia It is commonly seen as an illness, because of the suffering it causes to the pedophile (like not being able to act on your sexual desires and those desires being seen as evil). I agree with you in so far, as I think pedophiles, who look for help to deal with their situation, should be helped like other ill people. But if a pedophile doesn’t want help, there is nothing… Read more »
Feels a little weird to say, but amen.
If we had a proper treatment system in place instead of pushing these people to the fringes of society, there might just be less suffering.
I personally would prefer not to be seated in a plane next to any child & I actually did not take a particular flight from Asia (Manila) to LA, because I was seated next to a noisy 6yr old with his mother on the next seat , I chose to wait 2days & I still think it was worth it because of a bad experience with a noisy child & his mom in the past nevertheless in principal & on equality basis alone in the case of Virgin airlines (Australia) I think enforcing different rules on men then women is… Read more »
Wow….that’s disturbing. Even I don’t look at every adult male as a potential pedo. Back in the 80s, I flew about 4 times per-week. USAir had table-seats up front. I always requested the table. Sometimes you had to sit facing backward, but hey….a table! Well that front-zone table area was where they always kept the UAMs. So I frequently (especially around visitation holiday travel) had kids sitting there with me at the tables. Twas no big deal. I had to ward-off the occasional HotWheels car about to take-out my hot coffee, but that was about the worst of it. Sometimes… Read more »
I worked as cabin crew for many years and yes we had this policy. It was seamless for us unless check in staff had not done their check in correctly. It wouldn’t normally be something a passenger would even know about. You are right it seems un just however the truth is much worse. There have been some sad cases of children being interfered with even accompanied when their parents are next to them but have fallen asleep. I myself had a flight where a female adult woke to her neighbour sexually assaulting her. Airplanes in general seem to make… Read more »
So let me ask. Yes there are certainly stories of men sexually assaulting women on planes. However the policy isn’t that men should never sit beside women on flights but men shouldn’t sit by children on flights. (And honestly while I can’t say it never happens I’ve never heard of a story of a man assaulting a child on a plane.) Is there some sort of leap from “some men assault women on planes” to “men will assault children on planes”. Push PC aside in this case, in this case the crew handled it poorly, but I have and would… Read more »
!!!!Whoah!!!
Would you be able to share what airline, or at least county of original? I know BA had this policy but canned it after it got bad press. I was only aware of Qantas Airlines (also Australian) with a similar policy which they obstinately refused to change. Is this a wide-spread policy in the airline industry -its got to be a patent civil rights violation in the US at least.
…oh and its a bloody shame b/c I’m guessing that the average frequent flyer and/or passengers sitting in the expensive business and 1st class seats probably skew potential-pedophile. So while you and your airline “have and would do it again without fear of me being hurt”, I sure as f*ck won’t be. You can think of it that way. The problem is some of these airlines are clearly doing this in secrecy and only getting caught when someone in check-in doesn’t “do their job” as our insider friend helpfully pointed out. Can we flush these organizations out and make their… Read more »
@ Denise
“Push PC aside in this case, in this case the crew handled it poorly, but I have and would do it again if ever needed without fear of you being hurt. Sorry but in that situation you and I would both be the adults, and good for you if you want to help me protect the innocent. Think of it that way.”
How would you feel if that woman you sat next to the kid molested him? I know I’m not going to so how would me moving help you protect the innocent?
Yes.
Not much else to say besides pointing out that Mirko Fischer experienced the same on British Airways in 2010 and succesfully sued them and BA consequently changed their policy.
Source: http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2010/08/british_airways_seating_policy
British Airways had a similar policy and it took a lawsuit for them to get their minds right (http://dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.com/2010/06/i-would-like-to-think-britsh-airways.html). Oh and in the British Airways version the flight would not take off until said “threat” was moved to another seat. So who do you think the passengers would get pissed at for the flight being delayed?
What do you think? Is this a sexist and unfair policy?
Yes and Hell Yes.