Jasmine Peterson is a feminist who believes in men, and believes in equality for all. And she wants Valter Viglietti (and other men) to understand this.
This post is in response to The End of Feminism (as I Knew It)
I am a feminist. I love men. And as a feminist, I take deep offense to the insinuation that feminism is anti-male, or that its goal is only to advance the rights of women. That is not feminism as I understand or practice it, and as a member of a feminist organization, as a feminist who runs in feminist circles, and as a reader of feminist literature, this is not representative in any way of the feminists I know. Of course, that is not to say that there are not feminists who hate men, or who think women are superior beings. As with any heterogeneous group of people, beliefs will be held to varying degrees and may be expressed in a myriad of ways.
I agree with much of what Valter has said – men and women both have the capacity to be wonderful human beings, but we’re all fallible. As a feminist, I don’t think that women are superior in their morality, in their ability to nurture or to love, or in any other capacity. I don’t think men are superior in their ability to perform, to earn a living, or their ability to parent (I’m not trying to play into the gender binary with these capacities; just examples of how many people do femininity and masculinity, respectively).
Now, here is where our opinions seem to diverge. I want to understand men, and I want to support men. I want to help men to grow to their full capacities (outside of the ‘man box’), and to free men from oppression that they, too, face. And, as an activist, I engage in activities that are meant to address issues men face, in addition to women’s issues, so it really rather hurts me, and then kind of makes me angry, when I hear men suggesting that feminism is anti-male. Just like Valter really likes women, I really like and respect men (and women). In fact, I just have a huge respect for people, in general, which is why I work so hard in addressing inequalities wherever I see them.
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As a feminist I have been on the receiving end of a lot of anti-feminist backlash. A lot. My own partner, for a time, assumed the role of a masculinist in his opposition to my feminist ideology (we’ve since arrived at common ground, it seems, on the issue of feminism). The biggest concern seems to be that feminists assume that all men are guilty. Perhaps men have felt attacked by feminism. I get it. Acknowledging one’s own privilege (both male and female privilege) is a daunting task, because once acknowledged, if someone is concerned with equality, it means trying to let go of that privilege in creating a more equitable society. That can be pretty terrifying. And perhaps the discussions of privilege were initially quite heavily focused on male privilege, and this felt like a sentence of guilt. I get that, too. But in my experience, these discussions of privilege aren’t charging individual men, or women, as guilty parties; it’s merely about recognizing power structures in culture and how they contribute to inequalities so that we can find ways to empower marginalized groups. It’s not about blame. Similarly, talking about patriarchy, because of its perceived association to maleness, seems to make men cringe. Again, suggesting that patriarchy is a root cause of inequality is not an attack on men. Feminists, or all of the feminists I personally know, aren’t suggesting that the converse – matriarchy – is desirable. Patriarchy is as oppressive to men as it is to women. We’re not resisting men when we’re resisting patriarchy; we’re resisting inequality.
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What I’m curious to know is the type of feminists Valter has encountered, because they don’t seem to be anything like the numerous feminists I know. I’m not sure what kind of feminism it is that subscribes to the assumption that “To be a good man you need to always please (or never displease) women”. That doesn’t sound like any brand of feminism I’ve ever heard of, read about, or encountered. In fact, that’s decidedly not feminism. Feminists, in fact, want men to be free to be who they are, and to feel less encumbered by constructions of masculinity that might impose restrictions on how they express themselves. Feminists want men to feel free to express themselves in constructive ways. Feminists want men to be free to be their authentic selves. That doesn’t mean never displeasing women. People are certain to displease others, and no reasonable person would expect otherwise.
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I agree that not being able to own your thoughts is a terrible thing. I didn’t read the story to which Valter alludes, about the man who felt that his wife’s breasts were ‘ruined’, but I would assert that he should have the right to express his innermost thoughts and feelings without attack.
Women attacking this position isn’t akin to feminists inhibiting men’s authenticity. Firstly, Woman ≠ Feminist. And secondly, I think men and women should be able to freely express themselves. That doesn’t mean that upon doing so they’re not going to offend somebody, and won’t face reprisal. That’s part of authenticity – owning what you articulate. I have been subjected to tremendous amounts of reprisal simply for being feminist. That doesn’t mean I will stop being a feminist, or that I will dissociate myself from or call out an entire group who tend to engage in anti-feminist discourse. I have acknowledged that not everyone is feminist, that not everyone will agree with feminism, and that anti-feminist sentiment is deeply embedded within our culture. And it doesn’t mean that I think men should never displease women or should always make them happy. That’s not feminism.
Feminism is egalitarianism. Some people have even suggested that because of the many goals of feminism, it is time to change the name. I disagree (for a number of reasons that would make this more into a dissertation than a brief reply to Valter’s piece, so I won’t go into that here). Let me tell you, however, that feminism hasn’t changed from seeking equality to seeking ‘world domination’. In fact, feminism has grown into a movement that has accomplished great advancements in the status of women (although there is still work to be done), and has spread its reach to address inequalities of a number of marginalized and minority groups. Feminism is concerned with inequality, wherever it exists, and these goals are not in the slightest anti-male. Feminist researchers were the first to address masculinity as a health detriment in health research, out of concern for men’s health and greater morbidity. Feminists are concerned that young boys are subjected to gender policing more than young girls are, and the detriment this can have on their development. Feminists are concerned with men’s issues. That doesn’t sound anti-male to me. And let me just say, I absolutely love and appreciate every single male ally. Really.
Valter said: “In the end, I think this feminism’s “bias” might be its biggest failure. If you really believe in equality, then you care about everybody’s equality—not just for you or your kin.” The trouble is, this bias that you speak of doesn’t exist, except for perhaps among extremists, and it seems silly to generalize a prejudice against (or to dissociate yourself from) a whole group of people because of extremist factions.
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photo by aklawstudio / flickr
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The statement ” feminism is the radical notion that women are people” had lost all it’s value & legitimacy in western countries for the most part due to realities of women & the power that they hold in these countries, not the rest of the world before any body jump into conclusions, and since feminism has been losing some grounds when it comes to pushing it’s gynocentric agenda, it has been camouflage it’s goals as humanist movement which is far from the truth,the movements actions & words speak louder then it’s claims, the real statement is ” feminism is the… Read more »
“I have and do listen. A lot.”
You don’t, only act like that. That’s not the same.
I’m sure females do comment that women get raped to when there are male rape groups who speak out. Is this ok? I never said it was. Men do need to feel comfortable and supported to report such things. However to say men are raped in the world as much as women is simply false. Nor are they beaten as much. Go to Afghanistan, Africa, etc, this is a global problem. Women are sexually trafficked more, are child prostitutes, strippers, etc, far more than men. There are issues that affect women on a far greater scale and awareness needs to… Read more »
What about da wimminz?
To the egalitarian feminists, read the above comment and reverse the genders and you’ll get an idea of when people say “whataboutthemenz” and the insulting nature of it. “Your comment oh raped or attempted rape. Again, diminish, diminish the issue. Anytime a woman speaks out and defends against rape or abuse there comes the comments to try and marginalize it. This is part of the problem of why it occurs in the world. This complete lack of awareness. Many men do fight for women’s rights but not enough” How is the issue diminished, it’s actually reinforced because it shows men… Read more »
I think any reasonable person, whether they identify as feminist, MRA, or anything else, would agree that sexual violence, mental, emotional, or physical abuse committed by any person against any person is not okay. For Jody, or anyone, to be particularly concerned with violence against women doesn’t mean she’s not sensitive to or concerned with violence against men. The wonderful thing about feminism is that it’s not merely about elevating the status of women to a state of equality, but about deconstructing cultural institutions that maintain inequality – of males and females, of racial minorities, of the gender nonconforming, of… Read more »
“I think any reasonable person, whether they identify as feminist, MRA, or anything else, would agree that sexual violence, mental, emotional, or physical abuse committed by any person against any person is not okay.” Except that feminists don’t take that position on a consistent basis. We can all cite hundreds of feminist sponsored websites that equate domestic violence with violence against women, which evidences a tolerance for violence against men. I haven’t found a single feminist sponsored website that denounces the fact that men are far more likely overall to be victims of violence in general or the fact that… Read more »
This is not evidence of feminist’s lack of concern. This is simply evidence that the sites you’ve seen that proclaim to be feminist have contained information that you’ve interpreted thus. Stop generalizing. This would be like me saying that because I’ve seen a lot of vitriol on MRA websites, that any man or woman who proclaims to be an MRA is clearly hateful toward women, anti-feminist, a jerk, and doesn’t care about women’s rights. But I’m not going to say that because even if that may be true of some MRAs I’ve encountered, to generalize is not productive, does not… Read more »
This is simply evidence that the sites you’ve seen that proclaim to be feminist have contained information that you’ve interpreted thus.” Sorry. No interpretation involved. Noting a clear and long established pattern of behavior, with abundant evidence is not generalizing or interpreting. Supporting, expressing agreement with, and/or defending hateful views is evidence that the supporting and agreeing individual holds those views. I can point you to hundreds of examples right here. (I would be happy to provide examples) I came to the GMP with an open mind and have seen enormous evidence of feminism’s anti-male views, philosophies, accusations, arguments, and… Read more »
You’ve clearly come to the conversation from a place of bias, and therefore the manner in which you interpret things IS coloured by the lenses you’re wearing. If it were veracious that you were not biased or anti-feminist, you wouldn’t have come to the conversation on the defensive. You are STILL generalizing, and you are still speaking in reductionist terms.
Not at all. As I said, I can provide many examples of feminist written articles of anti-male prejudice right here. That’s not bias. That’s the sad reality.
That actually is a type of bias. We tend to seek out information that is consistent with our worldviews. Bias isn’t inherently a bad thing. It only becomes potentially bad when we can’t/don’t/won’t recognize the biases we have. You keep saying you’re not biased, yet you continue to remain on the defensive. Nothing shall get accomplished from this conversation, because you’re arguing something that isn’t there. Can you provide me statistics on my feminism? On my daily interactions and the proportion of times I’ve helped males and females? If not, then it’s not really relevant to what I bring to… Read more »
Observing prejudice and discrimination and noting that it’s prejudice and discrimination is not bias; it’s noting a fact. There’s nothing defensive about noting facts. If anything the prejudice that has been documented is Offensive, not defensive.
Circular argument. Extricating myself to get something more productive done.
Please. Thank you. I’m disturbed by the support and defense of prejudice and discrimination.
The worst part is when someone is espousing prejudice but refuses to acknowledge it. It makes moving forward more than difficult.
True. Hence, the problem with feminism/ts
Of course. It must be the feminists. In your interactions with people, who’s the common denominator? Perhaps try being more receptive to others, and you might find that your preconceptions are quite inaccurate indeed.
Perhaps try listening and thinking about the facts. And looking in the mirror. I am far from alone. I am part of a very large majority who have observed feminism and it’s anti-male bias and prejudice. The writer of the article this was a response to walked away from the feminist movement. That had nothing to do with me. Most women refuse to even be associated with the feminist movement, let alone be involved at any level. That’s got nothing to do with me. Even fewer men want any association with feminism. Again, that’s got nothing to do with me.… Read more »
I have and do listen. A lot. The author of this article (me) did not walk away from the feminist movement. I’m still feminist. As feminist as I was the day I wrote this article. 🙂
Ms. Jasmine, you wrote in response to a gentleman who dropped feminism for the same reasons I and most women and men never get involved in the first place.
I know which article you’re referring to. I was elucidating your prejudice. If you were not anti-feminist, as opposed to anti-prejudice, then you might have come to this post with a more receptive attitude. You cannot tell me that I do not work for equality, that I do not concern myself with the issues of people in general, or that I am some man-hating misandrist. We might have had a very productive conversation about the issues people face and what equality might look like, how we might work together to achieve that. Instead, you are stuck on the mantra ‘feminism… Read more »
“I was elucidating your prejudice. If you were not anti-feminist, as opposed to anti-prejudice, then you might have come to this post with a more receptive attitude.” Sorry, I cannot and will not be receptive toward bias and discrimination, even if it’s just lending tacit support to it by silent acceptance. “You cannot tell me that I do not work for equality, that I do not concern myself with the issues of people in general, or that I am some man-hating misandrist.” I never said anything about you personally. I spoke of the feminist movement and prejudice and discrimination that… Read more »
I’m not asking you to be feminist, or to even stop being anti-feminist. I’m merely asserting that conversations are more productive when you set your biases aside (or at least recognize and mitigate them) so as to have productive conversations.
I have watched this and many exchanges similar on GMP (and other blogs with other people) and I always wonder how the conversation would go in person. Would there be more good humor? Would there be more of an ability to back up, translate, come to understanding. I love dialogue, but don’t understand how some of the conversation can just be repeats of “new information” “no” “questions and clarification” “No” so forth and so on. No common ground is sought, not just with “feminists” cause I’ve seen conversations like this in other spheres, but other groups. It’s so strange to… Read more »
Jasmine, I’m not asking you to stop being feminist, just recognize the current and historic bias and misandry in within the feminist movement, stop pretending it doesn’t exist, and denounce it. The rest of the world sees it. Denying it is reminiscent of the emperor in Hans Christian Andersen’s “The Emperor’s New Clothes.”
I didn’t think nor state that you’ve asked me to stop being feminist. What I am suggesting, and have been suggesting, is that rather than argue about what you think feminism means or what I believe it means, focus on productive conversation. My experience of feminism has been anything but what you proclaim it to be, and when I do see such things I do and will speak out against them. As I’ve suggested before, perhaps the milieu is different here in Canada. However, when others point out to me ways in which they feel that feminism is misandrist, I… Read more »
Pot, meet kettle.
You’er missing the point. The argument was that it’s not true that men, as a rule, are “dropping out of fatherhood”. Do you not realize that creating a strawman is actually lying about someone? You continue to claim I said something I did not and then argue against what is, in fact, a lie. YOU used the term “dropping out of fatherhood”, NOT me. Children of single parent households are at a disadvantage in building a strong relationship with both parents, especially the non-custodial parent, which is most often the father. Hence, the changes your advocate, whatever advantaged they may… Read more »
Your argument lacks cogency, and I’m not following where you’re getting these bold assertions from. When and where did I say anything about men dropping out of fatherhood?
And still you’re missing the point (but illustrating my argument well). When you come to these discussions without a critical lens but rather with an anti-feminist lens, you’re likely to spend your time arguing, being defensive, and missing the entire point of the conversation. This is counterproductive.
I accidentally posted this here.
I’m not anti-feminist, I’m anti-discrimination and prejudice. That is my issue with the feminist movement. I can provide examples here.
Ah, I see. I couldn’t figure out where the fatherhood argument was coming from. 🙂 If it were true that you’re not anti-feminist, you wouldn’t expend so much energy on your anti-feminist sentiment. I am being candid – when I hear MRA, I do have a lens through which I then begin to interpret everything that person says to me. I acknowledge this, and attempt to mitigate its effect as much as possible so that I can listen to the person, rather than getting caught up in vehement debate about MRA as a whole. You are relying on generalizations and… Read more »
I am not against any group unless they/it adopts discriminatory and prejudiced views, which feminism has a history of.
If feminism denounces its anti-male views and philosophies and truly embraces equality, it would have my support.
Is it ok to make positive generalizations? I’ve seen many made for feminism and have wondered if it’s any more or less helpful than negative generalizations. What I see isn’t so much as anti-feminism, but anti-gynocentricfeminism the most, there truly does look to be 2 major mindsets in feminism and one of them causes major distrust (being female focused only) as the other is basically another word for egalitarianism. These 2 clashing views seem to cause the world of confusion, it’s sad but I truly now do believe egalitarian feminists need to separate themselves by a label in order to… Read more »
A resounding yes to your very last paragraph!! I don’t care if people disagree with me, or even if they have reasons to mistrust feminism. My only desire is that when talking with individuals of any orientation, we attempt to set our preconceived notions about what terms like ‘feminism’ mean aside and attend to the person and what the person is saying. I know I have a bias against MRAs and tend to become slightly defensive, so when talking to MRAs, I try to be cognizant of that and step back so that the conversation can be a productive one.… Read more »
Thank-you, hopefully your feminism wins out vs the gynocentrics. The thing I see the most is many voices desperate to be heard but unsure of where to go to speak. I truly hope they find their space, and hope I find that egalitarian feminist website one day:P
Archy, there’s no use pal. She doesn’t even admit the existence of fgynocentrist feminists.
According to her estimation, all of feminism is “wonderful.” Her word.
Are there manboobz style blogs for calling out the radfems?
Google for the “Agent orange files” Jasmine if you want to see a taste of some of the radfems.
Not that I’m aware. As anti-feminist as many MRA’s may be, I don’t think we are so much so as to dedicate our livelihoods to exposing what is so easily found. Plus, it really is a sad thing, to dedicate yourself to one big ongoing ad hominem attack upon a movement.
Look at the jezebel article in which the team of contributors at jezebel laugh about beating their boyfriends.
It’s pretty clear what is going on. Feminism teaches men can’t be victims because it applies class-warfare labels to the genders: oppressor and victim. Therefore because men’s pain isn’t “systematic” it doesn’t matter.
Even when it can be shown by factual evidence that in fact 50% of DV is female inflicted and men are 4 times more prone to stranger violence even when you include rape.
http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have
” For Jody, or anyone, to be particularly concerned with violence against women doesn’t mean she’s not sensitive to or concerned with violence against men.” Are you prepared to argue that claiming women have it worst and that means it’s ok to completely ignore male victims, and should anyone even mention male victimization within the conversation, it should be deemed an attack against women… are you prepared to argue that this isn’t being insensitive or lacking concern for male victims? Are you seriously going to defend the idea that not letting men speak without interpretting it as an attack is… Read more »
I’m not going to do any more of the back and forth. I’ve heard your points (repeatedly) and am not interested in arguing about whose conception of feminism is right and whose is wrong. I’d love to have a productive action-oriented conversation, but otherwise this is counterproductive and I am not interested in doing any more of the back and forth. Every point I address you will have a rebuttal. That’s not a productive mode of communication.
“not interested in arguing about whose conception of feminism is right and whose is wrong.”
Really? Why did you write a article defending feminism? Sorry, but the rest of the world’s perception of feminism is based on the history of the movement and the views and actions of feminists themselves.
What is not productive is refusing to see what most people see and not even being willing to open mindedly analyze why feminism has a solid reputation for being anti-male, among women and men.
” I’ve heard your points (repeatedly) and am not interested in arguing about whose conception of feminism is right and whose is wrong.” Then don’t come wincing and complaining when people trash feminism for what they see it to be. If you wish to make the choice to ignore peoples reasons for disliking feminism and seeing it as a largely hateful movement, to deem such a conversation as non-productive, then you have relinquished any right to claim others are wrong (without being a hypocrite, after all, for you to claim others are wrong is to deem that point important enough… Read more »
The conversation has been not at all productive, and so I extricated myself from it. I am not ‘wincing and complaining’ about people trashing feminism. What I am doing is elucidating that there are many misconceptions that have lent to the anti-feminist sentiment espoused by many. Those who see feminism as a hateful movement aren’t seeing feminism for what it is. They’re seeing a conception of feminism that isn’t accurate. I’ve looked into some of the assertions made by commenters about how feminists have limited men’s rights, and what I found was that it was a simplistic and reductionist assertion… Read more »
“What I am doing is elucidating that there are many misconceptions that have lent to the anti-feminist sentiment espoused by many.” No, what you are doing is telling people the anti-feminist sentiment people feel, the view of feminism as hateful, is based on misconceptions and not lived or witnessed experience. And you are failing to provide any evidence to support this claim, nor are you acknowledging any evidence to support their claims are valid (instead claiming to not want to go back and forth, but coming back anyways to once again state your opinions as truth (elucidating ?) and once… Read more »
You’ve just illustrated my point nicely. You’ve taken pieces of what I’ve said and used them to evidence something that is not there. For me to talk about misconceptions of feminism is not at all to deny that some people have had negative experiences with feminists. In fact, I have repeatedly acknowledged those experiences when they have been mentioned by commenters here. I would anticipate the same amount of decency from others, to acknowledge that my experiences differ from that. A productive conversation is not defined by agreeance. I’ve never suggested that (of course, you have taken my words to… Read more »
“For me to talk about misconceptions of feminism is not at all to deny that some people have had negative experiences with feminists. ” But for you to claim that anti-feminism (as a whole) is based on misconceptions (rather than the lived experiences of a large number of individuals) IS to deny that those experiences are noteworthy. Sure you can acknowledge that some people have had negative encounters with feminism (in fact, a great many people, given the general hostility gaining ground in the general population), but by claiming that anti-feminism is based on misconceptions, you ardently refuse to acknowledge… Read more »
You are entirely ignoring what I am saying and what I have said, selectively taking pieces that you wish to hear, and then interpreting them in ways that fit your vision of what I am saying and what feminism means. When I’m not being heard, I don’t care to continue a conversation.
You’re claiming I’m not listening doesn’t change anything. You still refuse to hear and see the hateful rhetoric within your own movement, even when it is pointed out to you, instead defending it as a misconception, as benign or ignoring it altogether, as if we never mentioned it. You still refuse to accept that, by claiming anti-feminism is based upon misconception, you are claiming your own experiences outweigh all others, and that this is a denial of all others who’s experiences conflict with yours, and who’s experiences are NOT misconceptions. And you still choose to run and deflect with accusations… Read more »
I am not pretending anything. I have disengaged precisely because you’re not interested in hearing anything outside of your already formed notions of feminism. And I’m not interested in having a circular and unproductive conversation. I assert that anti-feminism is based on misconceptions, even if it stems from experiences. Not because those experiences are not legitimate, but because those experiences inform a limited view of feminism. I have had some negative experiences with MRAs, but I’m not so reductionist or limited in scope to then assert that the MRA movement is in its entirety harmful to women and complete and… Read more »
I should also point out that you have been attempting to dismiss me as “not a productive mode of communication” right from my very first comment to you. You have yet to even acknowledge, let alone address a single point I have made, instead trying to pretend you are above me. Hows that for not listening.
My intent is not to be dismissive (although I do see how it comes off thus). However, the conversation is not productive. It is accusatory, circular, reductive, and unilateral. I’m not here to defend all of feminism. I cannot speak for self-identified feminists who behave in an oppressive manner. I cannot speak for the experiences of anyone else. I can, however, speak to my own experiences with feminism, working with a feminist organization, and my own goals as a feminist. I have dismissed this conversation because it was evident to me that your intent was not to empathize or come… Read more »
” Not because those experiences are not legitimate, but because those experiences inform a limited view of feminism.” Are you aware this is the first time you have actually acknowledged a point I have addressed to you, at least in this thread begun by Judy? But I need to ask, where do you get off claiming it is everyone else whose experience informs a limited view of feminism? Is it not possible it is in fact you who has a limited view of feminism? Was it not you who said your experience with feminists outside your local group and GMP… Read more »
I wonder how this conversation might play out in person. As it stands, I find you to be reinforcing all of my assertions about its nonproductivity.
Likewise, you reinforce my assertion that feminism is largely an exercise in psychological projection. And the fact you have repeatedly stated you do not wish to engage, yet here you are, needing to get the last word in, time and again. This (plus your repeated attempts to claim moral high ground) suggests the conversation in person would likely look like you talking over me so that I wouldn’t get my say, and if I asserted myself to get a chance to speak, I would be accused of being abusive or “mansplaining” (perhaps even using my large size to promote a… Read more »
I’ve been watching this go on and while I’m sure there are things in both your arguments I could agree with, if we were in person, I’d stage some kind of humorous intervention like a shot drinking contest or a knitting circle.
You both seem to be talking past each other (in my opinion) and I bet that if the convo was a personal/in person one it wouldn’t have gone this long this far.
The internet has it’s limits, I always say (even though Lisa disagrees with me 😉
I’ll do a shot now if you will! I’ve got me some bourbon!
This is part of the reason I refused to engage in a discussion of the issues with you – you are equating your perception of one person with the entire movement, reinforcing my opinion that you take a reductionist position. Anything I would have said would have been positioned within that frame. If you had come to the conversation from a place of genuinely wanting to hear in addition to wanting to be heard, I would have felt far more compelled to engage in the discussion. Instead, you’ve employed thinly veiled insults, generalizations, and circular arguments. You clearly have a… Read more »
In fact, I invite and welcome just such a conversation – one where both participants genuinely wanted to listen and learn from the others’ viewpoint. There was a time when I would have fully participated in a conversation revolving around circular arguments. However, I’ve learned that it is entirely unproductive, and nobody walks away from such conversations feeling as though they’ve accomplished anything.
I responded to Mark below, but my shot offer still stands.
I concur, Julie, that the internet has its limits. 🙂 And I also concur that there has been some talking past each other. It’s difficult when two people are staunchly rooted in a position to always be sensitive to the other.
If I weren’t in the process of attempting to finish up my 3-hour lecture to be given tomorrow, I’d certainly take you up on the shot offer. 🙂 If I finish it any time this evening, there will be a glass of vodka in my future. Cheers!
What Mark said.
My “poor white male” comment refers to anytime a woman speaks out about issues affecting women the rhetoric is oh some guys get beat/raped by women to. The point is to dimish the realities for women by these comments. No one should be raped or beaten and by all means start a mans group to spread awareness. If you did and females were commenting oh women get raped to. You can clearly see the purpose would be to undermine your cause. The facts are 1 in 6 women will be raped. Domestic violence is perpartated more towards women as well… Read more »
“If you did and females were commenting oh women get raped to.” Quite a few comments like that happen here on the articles discussing male victimization, it’s quite weird to see but I’ve seen quite a bit of it over the various feminism/masculism sites with comment sections, even Hugo Schwyzer and a few other feminist authors would do it in their own article! “Your an abuser what do you think when you hear feminists are scum? ” Something others and I have tried to do is show people there seems to be 2 feminism mindsets, 1 is gynocentric and only… Read more »
“My “poor white male” comment refers to anytime a woman speaks out about issues affecting women the rhetoric is oh some guys get beat/raped by women to.” The problem is that when people speak out against rape/domestic violence, it is framed in a gendered way that suggests only women suffer it. This is false and needs to be corrected. The fact that even our LAWS have gendered these problems shows what damage this causes. by law in the US, a man is not capable of being raped by a woman unless she uses a tool. Is this right? Is it… Read more »
Jody writes: “Female strip clubs outnumber male strip clubs 10 to 1. Pornography is only a woman doing whatever a man says with little concern for her pleasure” I thought feminism was about respecting women doing what they want with their body? what pure unmitigated drivel. Feminism is about the total infantalization of women. That is why feminism has to hold onto the victim label for women exclusively–feminists (like Jody) want equal rights for women, but not equal responsibility. When a women is to be held accountable for her actions, feminists want available a legal definition as victim (read: child)… Read more »
I read through most of the comments. The reactions to the word feminism is exactly as I suspected. We’re back in the 50s with women’s rights. It is the same reactions towards race in backwards time. Change feminism to racism and you will see the same reasoning. If you wanted equality for races, well you must hate white people or be a fanatic. What about those crazy civil rights people who cause trouble? Those goofy liberal teachers. What about the poor male white guy? Rape and domestic violence is overwelmingly forced upon women vs men. To say otherwise tries to… Read more »
That’s truly how it is when viewed through a feminist gynocentric anti-male prism.
yup. She uses the standard shaming tactics of “if you are against feminism, you must not women to have rights” as if that’s the only possible reason to be against feminism, and it’s methods (such as the denial of male victimization she uses in this very post, or the constant use of just this kind of shaming attacks) and anti-male theories (like patriarchy theory or the very objectification theory she puts forth, again, in this post) play no part in opposition to, or dislike of, feminism.
Neither the theory of patriarchy nor objectification theory are anti-male (although there are many misconceptions about each theory that might lend to an anti-male interpretation). In fact, objectification theory also applies to the objectification of male bodies, an increasing phenomenon in our media and culture.
Perhaps at their core, most academic levels, they are presented in more gender neutral tones, but they are still presented in the context of a female victim centric ideology, which leads many, including a great deal of feminists, to accept them as male blaming, female victim theories, and very few, if any, feminists will ever correct another feminist (never in my experience) when it is used incorrectly, in this male blame (IE, anti-male) manner. As such, at least as far as I’m concern, academic patriarchy theory and objectification theory’s “may” be gender neutral, but in the way feminism so often… Read more »
Your perception of feminism doesn’t ring true for what I have experienced and the work that I do as a feminist. To suggest that feminism is anti-male is as generalizing and reductionist as it is to suggest that men’s rights activists are anti-female and anti-feminist.
I have to agree, why is it so rare, actually I can’t remember anyone calling out gynocentric feminists like Jody?
“What about the poor male white guy?” How is this not shaming and insulting language? It infers that being male and white with problems mean’s the problems are trivial.
I mean, have to agree with Mark on
“The very fact you choose to challenge me, and fail to point out to Judy her flawed interpretations (as she uses both theories in anti-male ways within her post) only demonstrates my point.”
I’d also say it’s only some parts of feminism, it appears to be 2 separate monoliths if anything. 1 gynocentric and the other is egalitarian based on what I’ve experienced.
I haven’t seen an egalitarian “part” of feminism where there is no subscription to many of the same classic feminist tenets.
Ironically, the truly egalitarian feminists are often ostracised and deemed anti-feminist by other feminists, such as with Christina Hoff Sommers (see wikipedia, where she identifies as a feminist on the page specifically on her, but is deemed anti-feminist on the feminism page). But they do exists, albeit rare.
Thanks for your comment/correction. Ms. Sommers does seem to be for equality. She rejects many of the unequal, anti-male theories and philosophies that many so-called egalitarian feminists embrace, support, and defend.
I can see why feminists call her anti-feminist. She’s pro-equality.
What’s more, despite the fact many feminists openly reject her as a feminist, claiming her to be anti-feminist, they rarely do the same for radicals, whom they identify as fringe or a separate branch of feminism. IE, radicals, while not the same, are still feminists, but Ms Sommers, who is egalitarian, clearly is not. Says a great deal, that does.
Mark – very strong and valid point. I hadn’t thought of it that way. They, in essence, try to kick Ms. Sommers out of feminism thusly but refuse to do the same for even the most ardent man-haters.
Says a great deal indeed.
It’d be good for every feminist to see that Eric and Mark. If Christina cops so much flack whereas radicals are ignored then there is a major problem. I see christians, muslims, etc call out the radicals and denounce their actions, it would be quite heartening to see some feminist leaders call out the radfemhub stuff and any other misandrous bullshit.
Yet, it rings true with what I have experienced, as well as with what many others here as well. Furthermore, it rings true with Judy (based on her comments), whom I was replying to, yet you don’t feel the need to correct her on what feminism is about, thereby accepting and validating it. Perhaps you should take a critical look at your own house, see if the ideals you claim to have are truly represented by the visible, vocal proportion of the feminist movement, and acknowledge the failings, and the perception/reputation that wing has garnered the movement and ether work… Read more »
Feminism has built its reputation of being anti-male over several decades. It’s well known. There’s been ample opportunity to prove what it’s about.
If feminism was not anti-male and truly an equality movement it would be supported by more than a small minority of women and an even smaller minority of men.
Actually, that statement overlooks a lot of issues that complicates the position of feminism as an egalitarian movement. The reason it may not be widely supported at the cultural level has less to do with it being egalitarian or not and more to do with the fact that the anti-feminist backlash has painted feminism as some male-hating monolith that is out to destroy families so that women can take over the world. Anti-feminist rhetoric is everywhere, and there are a lot of myths of feminism that are promulgated. You ask people who don’t know much about feminism what it is… Read more »
I think it’s time someone made a true egalitarian feminist website. Would be very helpful as a goto place to understand it all better, I’ve tried n tried to understand it but I keep coming across radicals and gynocentrics and it’s annoying as hell. I hope I just suck at finding stuff:P
I haven’t seen much of either type of website – egalitarian feminist or the radical/gynocentric version (but I don’t have a lot of time to peruse the world wide web, which might be why). If I had the time and the know-how I would create such an internet space. Perhaps in a few years when I’m done with graduate school I will undertake such a task. 🙂
It’s definitely needed as the online world is now many peoples first introduction to feminism, even just facebook groups and the commenting on them has quite a lot of activity. I don’t goto university myself, and I don’t think our Australian universities would have egalitarian gender studies (I may be wrong but it sounds like most are women’s studies) so I haven’t been exposed to the academic feminism you speak of, just internet blogs and articles and picking up bit by bit via them + comments. This is the only site I can think of where I can discuss both… Read more »
I get the sense that academic feminism differs slightly from other forms of feminism, probably in part due to its focus on theoretical paradigms. I am a social constructionist, so I tend to focus on power structures and social constructs that are oppressive to a myriad of groups. Perhaps it is because of my social constructionist lens that I tend toward an egalitarian feminism (every time I see this term, it just seems so redundant to me, as I view feminism as an egalitarian movement). However, I’m also beginning to wonder if the difference isn’t necessarily academic versus lay person… Read more »
Yeah cultural climate could affect it. It seems U.S.A has a lot of questionable laws, and Australia also raises my eyebrow with it’s highly gender focused DV campaigns (my jaw will drop if I see Australia have a campaign that mentions female abusers and get significant airtime/publicity). There seems to be a real sense of female victimhood in some feminists which talks about men in a much more powerful light, and women in a weaker and more vulnerable light. This is something that tends to really bug me as I see it a lot in anti-abuse campaigns and usually studies… Read more »
I absolutely agree that any victim needs to be acknowledge, and I am equally uncomfortable with the positioning of females as victims and males as perpetrators. However, in my own work against domestic violence, I’ve seen the feminists I’ve worked with not only acknowledging that violence against women is an issue of power, but that this also impacts men because men are more likely to be victims of violence in general – especially at the hands of other men. I’ve done dating violence prevention workshops in high schools, and I try to maintain very gender neutral language so as to… Read more »
Thanks for ensuring the gender neutral language, I feel that will really help especially with the highschools. The earlier on that people can learn anyone can be a victim, or a perp I think the more we will see support for everyone as it undoes the current biases in society. It’s very encouraging to know there are those who see all of the angles and not just the stereotypes!
“The reason it may not be widely supported at the cultural level has less to do with it being egalitarian or not and more to do with the fact that the anti-feminist backlash has painted feminism as some male-hating monolith that is out to destroy families so that women can take over the world.” If feminism were an egalitarian movement, after several decades of existence, there would be abundant clear, non-subjective, measurable, compelling, incontrovertible evidence to prove that it is egalitarian. No such evidence exists. If such evidence existed, it would make it impossible to “paint” feminism in any untrue… Read more »
I’m not going to engage, Eric. I understand you’re coming from a place of mistrust of feminism. The things you’ve described feminism to be just aren’t feminism in my experience in feminist circles.
My comments are based on experience in discussion and reading feminist views, theories, arguments, and perspectives. It’s experience not mistrust.
I don’t doubt that your experience is different. As I said above, those inside feminist circles see things very differently than men and women in general do.
And I am also speaking from experience, and your assertions don’t match my experience. I’m merely suggesting that you’re applying a very general and reductionist view of feminism to a movement that is not at all monolithic.
Of course they don’t. As you said, your experience is inside the feminist circle, where that the rest of us consider clearly unjustified anti-male views are considered benign or righteous indignation. Just as the Tea Party has some variety within its ranks, there are certain core principles they hold in common, lest they are all Tea Party members. Likewise, feminists must share certain core ideologies, otherwise they would refuse to call themselves feminists, as most women do. That they choose to ID with the movement is evidence of common views. Thus, it largely is not totally but certainly largely monolithic.… Read more »
“I’m merely suggesting that you’re applying a very general and reductionist view of feminism to a movement that is not at all monolithic.”
Aren’t you doing the same in your denial of his assertions and experiences?
Whether it’s a monlith or not doesn’t make much difference since even the most ardent man-haters are welcome in the movement.
So much for really “listening” to what others have to say. if what they say doesn’t fit your preconceptions, then dismiss it as uninformed, based off mistrust (never actually self criticising to determine if that mistrust is justified), etc. You yourself have admitted you don’t know a lot of feminist sites because you don’t spend much time on the internet (and you refuse to be self critical of feminism, despite many feminists and ex feminists jumping ship for precisely the reasons being described to you), yet you feel justified speaking on behalf of all of feminism, and claiming those of… Read more »
I’m not speaking for all of feminism. I’m speaking to my experiences of feminism and how it manifests itself in my life and my work. I do not refuse to be self-critical of feminism. I will assert AGAIN – feminism is not a monolith. There are inevitably going to be things that different feminists do not agree on. That is the nature of any group of people. I have not said that anyone who has had any experience is wrong. And yes, I do think you need to listen better (because if you really read what I was saying, none… Read more »
And yet you refuse to acknowledge the factions of feminism that create the very perception we are discussing. You have claimed that feminism is not male-hating, yet let Judy’s comment that “Rape and domestic violence is overwelmingly forced upon women vs men. To say otherwise tries to distracts from the issue” go unchallenged, despite you claims of acknowledging male victims in your own work. When she claims “If you speak out. If you want real equality, rights, awareness, yes FEMINISM then you’re labeled a femnazi.”, why do you not tell her that what is needed is for both genders to… Read more »
People tend to seek out information that is congruent with their worldview. It matters not what I say or how I say it. You will find a way to perceive it in a manner that is congruent with your view of feminism. What I said does not at all negate an acknowledgement of Eric’s experiences. I didn’t say that there are never legitimate concerns about feminism. To refuse to acknowledge that there has been an anti-feminist backlash that is not entirely based on a resistance to some ‘anti-male’ agenda would be as remiss as me saying that Eric’s concerns regarding… Read more »
Doing the same thing seldom yields different results. As long as the anti-male agenda feminists are welcomed, supported, and defended, those who choose to identify with the movement are making a statement of support and agreement with their ideologies. Hence, their anti-male agenda will continue to define the movement.
@Jody RE: Domestic violence and rape. In the last year of the recent CDC report, male and female rape (forced to penetrate and being forcefully penetrated) had pretty much equal numbers of victims of male and female, with 40% female perpetrators and 60% male perpetrators. Many many many domestic violence studies show it to be a major problem for both genders, some saying equal levels, even the CDC report showed neck n neck for psychological aggression alone if I remember correctly. I do like how you said ignoring statistics because that is what quite a lot of people are doing,… Read more »
I don’t have the time to argue. Saying that many people hold beliefs that are promulgated at the cultural level and that are not necessarily accurate is not to say they are ignorant. I would suggest some Foucault for a deconstruction of what I’m getting at with that implication (discursive constructions of knowledge). I don’t sit down a woman who has negative views about feminism in some condescending manner, and it doesn’t necessitate a discussion. However, if feminism comes up, it’s already evidently a discussion, and often a conversation ensues in which I divulge the tenets of feminism to which… Read more »
“Saying that many people hold beliefs that are promulgated at the cultural level and that are not necessarily accurate is not to say they are ignorant.” IF they (we) are not ignorant, why would we need to have feminists sit us down and explain anything? “And what often comes from these conversations is that women (and men) say “Oh, well I believe in those things, too.” Of course there are things that most women and men agree with feminists on. Similarly, there are things that far left wing democrats and far right wing republicans agree on. However, common ground issues… Read more »
Thank you for writing, and I’d like to see more egalitarian feminists on here. The trouble is that just as much as your feminist aims include men and campaigning for their rights there are many other feminists who don’t. Some of them think of gender as some kind of scales, and that if either side is privileged, they are privileged in every way and that the other side is oppressed in every way. Others think that men deliberately created this system in order to benefit them and oppress women. Others again think that men are the root of all evil… Read more »
Peter, I don’t disagree with you. Where it becomes problematic is when we make sweeping generalizations – so if I were to say that men’s rights activists are misogynist and therefore should not be taken seriously, then I’m defining a group by those on the margins, and that’s not fair to the movement or to the people in it. And this is not directed toward you Peter, but I just received an email with a response from somebody, and I don’t have the time to sift through the comments to find it (my thesis draft is due Monday, and I… Read more »
“Feminist researchers were the first to draw attention to men’s health issues, and to the impact that some aspects of masculinity have on men’s health.” I haven’t seen any concern about men’s health from feminism. Feel free to point to a feminist group or organization’s website that has made men’s health a key agenda issue. What I have seen and continue to see from feminism is blanket criticism of and negativity toward maleness/masculinity. “Feminism has encouraged men’s role as father (this may be seen as a by-product of women entering the workforce and asking men to assume equal responsibility in… Read more »
I’ve answered what you’ve asked. I’m not sure if you have access to academic journals, but if so, I can provide you with a wealth of citations with which to explore the ways in which feminists has addressed these issues. I am a feminist, and I do all of these things. So you HAVE ‘seen’ feminists concerned with such matter. This brings me back to the fact that we often seek information that maintains our worldviews and biases to the detriment of taking in any other information which might not be congruent with your own beliefs. In addition to academic… Read more »
“I can provide you with a wealth of citations with which to explore the ways in which feminists has addressed these issues.” No doubt, in their own ways that come of as anti-male, in the views of most men and most women. “I am a feminist, and I do all of these things.” I have no idea what you mean by “all of those things.” We’ve discussed a number of things. Further, we see these issues very differently. For example, the feminist version of equality and concern for men is usually very different from what men are concerned about, and… Read more »
Instead of: “No doubt, in their own ways that come of as anti-male, in the views of most men and most women.”
No doubt. Feminism has addressed these issues in ways that come off as anti-male in the view of most men and women.
You don’t seem interested in shedding your misconception of feminism (“No doubt, in their own ways that come off as anti-male…”). I’ve provided you with exactly the information you asked for. And now back to working on my thesis I go.
“You don’t seem interested in shedding your misconception of feminism.”
I was hoping that you would provide factual information to support your arguments. If I have any misconceptions, factual data could easily prove it. However, all you’ve shared is your opinion that men dominate everything, have all the money, male behavior causes problems, etc.
By the way, my perception of feminism is shared by the vast majority of women (and men), which is why most women reject being with it.
I offered to provide you with scholarly articles; you dismissed this with your statement, which is why I didn’t bother.
Feminism is largely misunderstood at the cultural level. I am aware that many women do eschew the term feminism. However, when you actually speak to these women and get down to their actual beliefs, it’s not feminism that they’re rejecting but the misapprehensions about feminism.
“I offered to provide you with scholarly articles; you dismissed this with your statement,”
I did not dismiss the posting of any feminist scholarly articles that show true concern for males, for their sake, not based on how issues regarding them may affect females. Feel free to post any such links.
“Feminism is largely misunderstood at the cultural level.”
Women reject what they see and hear from feminists themselves. I personally respect the intelligence of women, and therefore don’t for a second believe that after decades of feminism’s existence that they are too dense or ignorant to understand it.
I’ve not even remotely implied that women who reject feminism are ignorant. My experience has been that women often think they’re rejecting feminism, but when you sit down and converse about it, it’s actually the culturally held belief about what feminism is and how it functions that they’re balking at. Their ideas are congruent with feminist ideals of equality, and they’re often shocked to discover that feminism isn’t about burning bras or misandry.
Also, I don’t have links. As I mentioned, these are articles in scholarly journals. I can provide you a list of references, if you so desire.
If they are not ignorant, why is there a need to “sit down and converse about it. . .?” If you are not claiming they are ignorant, why are they subject to (according to you) a wrong “culturally held belief about what feminism is and how it functions. . .” That, in fact, claims that all of us (non-feminists) are ignorant. We need feminists to sit us down and explain to us how things really are, because after decades of historic evidence, we still can’t figure it out on our own. Feminism is not new. It’s been around for decades.… Read more »
This 2012. If there is evidence to support your argument, at least something to point to would be available on the Internet. It wouldn’t all be locked up in text books.
Hello Jasmine, the way I see it, I would say there are three different kinds of feminists. We have the radicals, but there is no need to talk about them now (even though they kind of help to poison the well). We have the egalitarians and you seem to be a prime example of an egalitarian feminist with your stance on privilege and your view that there is a female privilege. Now, let me introduce you to gynocentric feminism -> http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/ ————————————————————————— Feminism: The advocacy of women`s rights on the grounds of sexual equality (OED) Given the historical and continued… Read more »
The point where feminism went wrong was when they crossed over from attempting to rectify codified things, laws etc., and go forth with the mantra “though there is still mush to do” applying that to western society. Its crazy making, and no, there is nothing left to do except live a life of excellence, above reproach. I see feminism against things like attitudes and feelings, good luck, there will be bad actors with weird feelings, along with killers and theirs and rapists and hookers and you name it. You will not stamp out what you perceive as wrong thinking, just… Read more »
Gee whiz, I wish I could retract that last post as both the mens sites listed DO allow women to speak.
I done stepped into it in my vigor for mansplaining.
Apologies given
[…] of the articles from the Project are specifically about the gender discussion. Others hit on topics not limited to gender at all. Each article is interesting, thoughtful and, I […]
Jasmine, Joanna, Lori et all.
I have a haven up specifically for you guys because I feel you’re doing your best to understand the other side.
Please look up “Circle Of Fire” and go there. I’ll make sure a discussion between us is possible.
Thank you.
Good stuff, Eagle.
“I engage in activities that are meant to address issues men face, in addition to women’s issues,” Then it should be equal to provide examples? And I mean examples of addressing men’s issues, not just happening to improve things as a side effect of helping women. Furthermore, I ask if you believe your individual participation is sufficient to counteract opposition to men’s rights, such as from NOW’s President’s opposition to shared parenting http://www.nownys.org/fathers_resp.html (amongst other feminist organizations) Or explain Tory Shepard’s current attack on the men’s rights movement as extremists (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/opinion/shepherd-mens-rights-extremists-go-online/story-fn34ojzj-1226240201714) while simultaneously (and hypocritically) promoting women and children first… Read more »
“ Firstly, Woman ≠ Feminist” And yet, the number one accusation made against any man who speaks up for men’s rights outside of the feminist discourse, let alone is critical of feminism itself, is to call them a misogynist. Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not justifying saying a woman should be assumed to be a feminist, or that any bad behavior or responses by/from women should be attributed to feminism. I don’t agree with this (Though, admittedly, my views of feminism are less critical then many other MRA’s, I’ll elaborate at the end**), but when a person (of ether… Read more »
Perhaps this answer might help: 1) Nobody denies that anti-male feminists exist. Only their number is under debate. 2) There are no anti-woman feminists as that would be a contradiction in terms. It’s a logical impossibility. 3) There are feminists who are genuinely for equality. Here too their number is not agreed upon. 4) Irrespective of the numbers, there must be a general anti-male tendency on average because there are no anti-female feminists to balance them out. Hence, feminism is anti-male. The only thing left to argue about is the extent to which it’s anti-male. The radicals are of course… Read more »
Adi: 1) Nobody denies that anti-male feminists exist. Only their number is under debate. 2) There are no anti-woman feminists as that would be a contradiction in terms. It’s a logical impossibility. Hold on based on the claims of many feminists the movement is about equality for all people. If that’s the case then wouldn’t anti-male feminists also be a contradiction in terms, also a logical impossibility? Even more interesting would be to find out if the percentage of sexist man haters is greater or smaller among feminists than it is among non-feminists. I recall about 2 years ago there… Read more »
” If that’s the case then wouldn’t anti-male feminists also be a contradiction in terms, also a logical impossibility?” No, because the claim that feminism is for equality is just that – a claim. And also the truth of that claim is what we’re disputing so a contradiction must be possible. Meanwhile, the term “feminism” by itself implies a pro-female stance which makes anyone who identifies as feminist, by definition, not anti-female. The existence of one single anti-male feminist already tips the balance of the whole movement against men (though very slightly). The only thing open for dispute then is… Read more »
I don’t mean this with any offense toward you, Adi, but your logic is off. If you don’t know the ratio between man-positive and man-negative feminists within the community, then you cannot come to any number in order to determine whether Feminism is “man positive” or “man negative”. If you could quantify it, perhaps you’d assign the man-negative members with a negative number and the man-positive with a positive, then at equal, you’d have a 0. I personally believe man-positive feminism is let’s say at 80%=8 of the population, and man-negative is at about 10%= -1 of the feminist population.… Read more »
“Tell me how that hurts you? I’m not asking for men to be fired to make room for women. I’m asking for them to have an equal chance.” Out of the 7 resume’s I have forwarded in the past 2 months to people in charge of hiring for my field (all men), 5 were returned with the recipient saying their company had an internal hiring quota and could only higher men once their female ratio was back up. I am routinely told that my accomplishments at work “would be so much more meaningful if only I were a woman” by… Read more »
Wow, that is terrible. Quotas seem sketchy to me, especially in some industries where they cannot get women to goto. Do they at least wait say 1 month and then hire a man if there are no female applicants? I don’t agree at all that women should get their conferences paid for whilst men foot the bill if it’s required for work, why put a man out just to get women ahead? He’s paid his dues and worked hard too, send them both, especially if 1 gender has been twice and the other hasn’t been once. I found it interesting… Read more »
Hi Joanna, first of all, I would never be offended by you pointing out flaws in my reasoning. In fact I appreciate it. Now to your point: You bring up man-positive feminists vs man-negative feminists and make a convincing case that, so long as we don’t know the number, we cannot tell from that how anti-male (or not) feminism is. That is correct, only I didn’t attempt to make that judgement. You left out an important (probably much bigger) portion of feminists: namely the woman-positive and woman-negative feminists. Now lets look at the four types of feminists in those terms:… Read more »
Hey Joanna, I had read before that women were fired during the great depression, but I thought this was only in male-type jobs (like factory settings). I didn’t realize this even trickled down to female “safe” jobs like teacher. I’m not trying to nitpick, or deny that this was sexism or oppression, but in some ways this was somewhat defensible. You have to remember that during the great depression there was little social net, and homelessness was rampant. When women worked it was (somewhat correctly) seen as a superflous income for her. In a time where many families had no… Read more »
Yes, but even if that were justifiable for *some* women, as their incomes were superfluous, but the problem with these en masse firings of women is that you never knew what a woman’s income was for or her situation. There could be a man working whose family had tons of money, and there could be a widow working to feed her children, or a daughter whose father is out of work.
Systematic oppression ignores individual stories, and therefore individual rights. Gender equality or nothing.
I’m sure there’s plenty of examples of individual suffering cause by such decisions. But they were desperate measures for desperate times. I’m sure if it had been possible to micro-manage such rules to ensure only the women who didn’t need jobs were fired they would have. I don’t think its any accident that the most “patriarchal” societies are usually the most threatened ones and I find it hard to conceive of gender roles as anything more than a survival tactic.
Patriarchy doesn’t suggest that all women are oppressed and men are not. It recognizes that power lies in the hands of few men, and that privilege of those over whom this power is held is transient. It varies on when and how we experience privilege and oppression. And it is certainly not theorized to be a phenomenon experienced only by women!
Just to amend that, it’s not to say that those who are oppressors are only men; there are some women in positions of power. As a social constructionist, discussions of power are really complicated, because I want to convey my thoughts in a manner accessible to all, but it’s a highly convoluted relationship. Power is transient, and it functions through complicity. Patriarchy isn’t about individuals (which means that no, we’re not blaming men or excluding men from discussions of oppression); it’s an institution.
Power does not only reside in the hands of “few men.” Hence, the feminist patriarchy theory is wrong. There are plenty of women with power, and many women have more power than men, increasingly so now. For example, in the United States, there are more women managers than men. Women have lower employment, are victims of crime and murder less often, and receive better and more education.
Hence, the feminist term “patriarchy” and how it is applied is wrong and misplaced; hence, it is just an attack on maleness.
That statement belies a misunderstanding of what is meant by power. As I said, it’s a really complicated theory, and it’s hard to convey it so as to be accessible. I think you’re thinking of privilege, not power. I did mention that there are women who hold positions of power. However, I also mentioned that power inherently possesses a component of complicity. Patriarchy isn’t about accusing individual men of holding and wielding power; it is referencing an institution. Government is dominated by men; CEOs are predominantly men; those who hold a vast preponderance of a nation’s wealth are men. This… Read more »
”I think you’re thinking of privilege, not power.” I quoted you using “power”, not privilege, and thus responded to that. Managers have more power than subordinates. The employed have more power than the unemployed. The educated often have more power than the un- or less-educated. (you know, the “knowledge is power” thing). There are millions of women with more power than men in those areas. “Patriarchy isn’t about accusing individual men of holding and wielding power; it is referencing an institution.” Who is in charge of this institution? Why is it called patriarchy not matriarchy? “Government is dominated by men;”… Read more »
Adi, sorry, but that doesn’t work. You’ve used your axiom of some elements of a group having one characteristic to prove that all of the group shares that characteristic.
By your logic you and I, as MRAs, are misogynistic because some MRAs are.
Hey Jody, you know when i first realized “feminism” was a crock? It was my Eighth grade year when my classmate, we’ll call her “Katie,” Was given an A for her (completely unironic) report entitled “Why Girls are Smarter Than Boys.” I, of course, objected to this characterization of the male gender as sexist. You know what I got for my trouble? Detention. My teacher was a feminist. She talked all the time about “patriarchy” and “rape culture” and the rest of that crap. I knew something was wrong about what she was teaching us, but I didnt say anything… Read more »
Also, speaking of reading feminist articles… do you know how many so-called “feminists” I’ve encountered who don’t even know who Andrea Dworkin, Mary Daly, or bell hooks even *are*? They’re only peripherally aware of the likes of say Gloria Steinem either.
I guess it’s sorta like the atheist who knows what the Bible actually *says* better than the Christian.
Feminism is a man-hating movement – and if not, feminists have to hurry to distance themselves from people like late Valerie Solanas and her admirers, but as far as I can see this is not the case. I wonder how Jasmine justifies the feminist ideology of Valerie Solanas and the supportive statements of NOW and similar feminist organizations, which consider a convicted violent criminal as a ‘heroine of the feminist movement’ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Solanas After murder attempt According to Robert Marmorstein in 1968, “[s]he has dedicated the remainder of her life to the avowed purpose of eliminating every single male from the… Read more »
Most feminists are good people. feminism is twisted and biased. Both of these can be true at the same time. I am not saying feminists are sexist i am saying that feminism itself is biased and relies on assumptions that aren’t true. Anyone who challenges those assumptions is silenced. I have seen this happen. Most feminists don’t understand that the assumptions they base their politics on is biased. This is why feminism is biased. Any challenge to the basic tenents of feminism is dismissed. Feminism posits the belief that men in power benefits men. It doesn’t both men and women… Read more »
The most dangerous aspect of feminism is its’ credibility. Feminism has done some much good in the past that it is deserving of its’ status as standard bearer in the gender equality movement. Consider the highly gendered FBI definition of rape pushed by many feminist organizations. It excludes nearly all female perpetrated instances of rape, even against females. I think feminist leaders did this for political purposes (and maybe some misandry. I’m not completely ruling out the possibility) and used this credibility and women’s justifiable fear of rape to convince over 100,000 people that this is what the definition of… Read more »
“I believe that most feminists are decent people and that there is a lot of common ground between feminism and the men’s rights movement.”
This!
Thanks to Jasmine for responding to all the comments and so on. I know how frustrating and difficult it can be to do that from my time on traditional feminist boards.
Jasmine says: January 16, 2012 at 1:46 pm ….. I’m not intending to be dismissive. I’m suggesting that rather than attacking feminism, listen to what the person is saying. It would be good for you to check out what moderators of feminist websites are usually doing when receiving any comment – even those perfectly polite and constructive written – from MRAs. Those comments will be immediately deleted and the user banned. Feminist websites are mostly attacked for their ignorance and arrogance against any comment from men, reasonable or not, because they do not want to acknowledge that men have problems… Read more »
Jody says:
January 16, 2012 at 8:50 pm
Where did people first feel feminism is bad?
I think, it was in this moment where feminists started to demand special privileges and rights, because ‘women are different’. – It’s about men and women are equal, but we women are even a little bit more equal than you men…
The male patriarchal society and porn culture has been responsible for the witch hunt against feminism. Now it is a dirty word, discarded, a joke, a caricature. Where did people first feel feminism is bad? Where did the idea form in the male mind? Can they even pinpoint a point? Many feminist haters haven’t read a feminist article in their entire life. Where oh where do these ideas come from? I can see why those who have to live with a false stigma would want to run instead of standing for truth and justice. If they’re that weak minded then… Read more »
“The male patriarchal society and porn culture has been responsible for the witch hunt against feminism. Now it is a dirty word, discarded, a joke, a caricature. Where did people first feel feminism is bad? Where did the idea form in the male mind? Can they even pinpoint a point? Many feminist haters haven’t read a feminist article in their entire life. Where oh where do these ideas come from? I can see why those who have to live with a false stigma would want to run instead of standing for truth and justice. If they’re that weak minded then… Read more »
The male patriarchal society and porn culture has been responsible for the witch hunt against feminism. Now it is a dirty word, discarded, a joke, a caricature. < That’s not the entire case and only a person that thinks feminism is a perfect picnic of sunshine and rainbows would think that. Where did people first feel feminism is bad? Truthfully I used to buy into some of the media hype. Then I started interacting with actual feminists to give them a fair chance. That’s when I learned that media hype wasn’t wrong, it was just unfairly generalizing about the nastiness… Read more »
Feminism is responsible for its own reputation. After several decades, if feminism truly was about fairness and equality, there would be abundant evidence to prove it. There isn’t. I have asked repeatedly for evidence of feminism being an equality movement, and all I have ever been given are repeated unsubstantiated claims. By contrast, there is plenty of evidence of feminism being anti-male, including here.
Eric M. says: January 16, 2012 at 9:59 pm Feminism is responsible for its own reputation. After several decades, if feminism truly was about fairness and equality, there would be abundant evidence to prove it. In Europe for sure, feminism has nothing to do with ‘equality’. Feminism is used to create so-called ‘gender-neutral laws’ which benefit mostly women. Obligatory military service – for men only – comes to my mind. But also regulations about alimony which makes it possible for females to claim support even 40 years after divorce from the ex-husband, guidelines to sentence female criminals who are getting… Read more »
I can see you will be very popular here Jody 🙂
Welcome.
Well Jodi, it could possibly be from these posts concerning male rape victims. http://subterfusex.wordpress.com/2010/11/22/hes-asking-for-it/ http://www.feminisms.org/386/can-a-man-be-raped-by-a-woman/ http://thecurvature.com/2010/10/29/justice-department-repot-on-sexual-assault-in-juvenile-detention-minimizes-violence/ Unfortunately they took down the first example, but the post was about the “silver lining” surrounding the rape of men. It argued that as more men got raped, men would take rape more seriously. The second post the author minimizes male rape victims as suffering less. The third one was an excellent post, but the only comment was essentially rape apology. I didn’t see comment calling her out, even the author, nor did I see comments in support of the author’s suggestion to end… Read more »
Sorry Jody, I misspelled your name. They could have also got it from the change in the definition of rape pushed by feminists, which granted is an improvement over the old definition and I may be just a bit too cynical, but did anyone else notice that it specifically exempts the vast number of female perpetrators. Mew definition Penetration no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by the sex organ of another person without the consent of the victim. It seems that a woman who rapes a man with… Read more »
I wrote an article on the redefinition of rape and how it excludes men as victims of females; not all feminists overlooked the work that still needs to be done, and those victims excluded by this redefinition.
And I am a feminist. Advocating for men’s rights and addressing issues that affect men are feminist issues.
“Where did people first feel feminism is bad? Where did the idea form in the male mind? Can they even pinpoint a point?”
For me, it started when a now ex-friend of mine said she became a feminist and wanted to be referred to, in print, as a “womyn” since “woman” has “man” in it, which she found offensive.
Now where, oh where is the “patriarchal society and porn culture” in that, hmm? Can you even pinpoint it?
So valerie solonas was patriarchal misdirection? I think it would be more honest for feminists to acknowledge their demons, even if only as a first step towards exorcising them. There are examples of men and women (porn obsessed or otherwise) unjustly dismissing feminist arguments in the name of religion, conservatism or whatever you may care to mention. But there’s also plenty of examples of people who call themselves feminists who claim that I am, by my very nature, a murderer and a rapist. Their arguments deserve dismissal, by feminists and non-feminists alike. The failure of the feminist movement to come… Read more »
I think it goes further than that. Christina Hoff Summers is a (self defined) feminist that does just what you are suggesting. She is critical of the negative elements within feminism, and calls for it’s “exorcism” (as you say), and for feminists to take up men’s issues as being as serious as women’s issues. For this, she is defined as anti-feminists by feminists themselves. She is openly ejected from the movement by other feminists, yet the radical supremacy type feminist only get dismissed as unimportant or “not-all-feminists-are-like-that”, but remain acknowledged as feminists. Radical feminists, but feminists none the less. So… Read more »
If one doesn’t/can’t see the anti-male and misandristic attitudes, theories, and views that are common within feminism apparently is in agreement with them. There are thousands of examples of such right here in comments and articles, including, for example, the many claims that all men are somehow complicit in rape, and that virtually all married men are rapists of their own wives (Accidental Rapist).
Jasmine, to be fair, you seem like a good person and sound like you are coming from a good place. I just think you have bought into an image of feminism the same way many people in my neck of the woods were pushed into christianty from a young age. There is a certain level of denial that we all have to move past when we discover that something dear to us isn’t what we thought it was. Feminism isn’t the champion of justice and equality that we all believed it to be, but we can take those values of… Read more »
I’ve stated elsewhere why I identify, and will continue to identify, as a feminist, regardless of the vitriol levied at me for it. I have not bought into an image of feminism; I am immersed in the movement. I think that I could say the same to you – that you have bought into an image of feminism that is not voracious. Feminism is not synonymous with misandry. That would be like me asking why any man would want to identify as MRA, why they would want to be linked to misogyny and hate. (I don’t think this; I’m illustrating… Read more »
*Veracious. Must remember to edit my comments BEFORE posting!
” Feminism is not synonymous with misandry. ” Now I personally will agree with you on this one, contrary to many MRA’s and others. That said, feminism is not synonymous with equality ether, as you posit. The one consistent factor found throughout all types of feminism is the drive for female empowerment. This is not to say one can not also have a drive for male empowerment. Or that this drive for female empowerment is to be taken to any drastic or unreasonable level, though for some feminists it very well could. But it must be acknowledged that ensuring the… Read more »
Why not list some websites featuring self proclaimed feminists who share your brand of feminism? I think this would be much more helpful than constantly saying so many commenters here are wrong in what they’re telling you about feminism.
Exactly. Most of the feminist sites I’ve seen sure don’t look like anything Jasmine is describing.
Excellent advice. I do not know even one feminist webpage sharing the opinion of Jasmine.
But there are many which are exactly the opposite of what she says…
For example, a typical feminist slander page against MRAs claiming MRAs agitate for rape and assault…Are MRAs concerned about anything other than raping and beating women?
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/10/explainer-whats-mra.html
Isn’t it nice that at the same time Jasmine is saying that feminists do like men, do listen to men, and are concerned about the rights of men, she’s dismissing every point men make and ignoring the evidence we present to back up our claims as ‘anecdotes’?
On one hand, I can understand her staunch, knee-jerk defensiveness. She’s seeing feminism attacked and feels attacked herself since she considers herself a feminist. It’s only natural to defend yourself when attacked. But in doing so, she’s doing exactly what she’s claiming feminists don’t do.
I am listening. And I’ve been very adamant about honouring the stories that have been brought forth. I have acknowledged repeatedly that I lament that anyone has been subjected to any such treatment by any human being, whether it be woman, feminist, men, or MRA. I’m not intending to be dismissive. I’m suggesting that rather than attacking feminism, listen to what the person is saying. I make assertions about my position on equality and all people seem to be hearing is “She’s a feminist. She’s a feminist”. Yes. I am. And that means I respect all human beings, and work… Read more »
“I’ve been very clear, I believe, that I don’t condone in any way the oppression of men. But at the same time, I will not be told that simply because I identify as feminist, I am an oppressor of males. I am talking about feminism as I know and practice it, to elucidate that the feminism that men have come for fear isn’t the only, or even the most pervasive, face of feminism.” And we have been very clear too…don’t just tell us…SHOW us. We aren’t simply telling you we think feminism is a bad thing, we’re SHOWING you WHY… Read more »
LBC, it will be a cold day in hell when Jasmine responds to your points with specific examples and citations. She made it quite clear in an earlier post that she feels she has no responsibility to engage in evidence-based argumentation, merely assertion-based argumentation, leaving it to those of us who disagree with her to come up with the evidence to prove her point, or search in vain for a long, long time.
Lisa, I hate to say it, but I think you’ve been the victim of a con.
> But at the same time, I will not be told that simply because I identify as feminist, I am an oppressor of males. I don’t think anyone is saying that *you* personally are an oppressor of males. It’s not personal! We think it’s nice that you are so egalitarian, but we don’t think that represents certain feminists that we oppose – the ones who are the anti-male, pro-female variety. What I and others would like from you is an acknowledgement that there is indeed this anti-male aspect of feminism, that it is often found in the politically powerful feminist… Read more »