Steve LaFond breaks down some of the confusing societal reasons that men think,”All women want this.”
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One of our editors recently wrote a brilliant piece about what women really want and how it’s sometimes at odds with the societal constructs we have put up in reaction to centuries of chauvinism. It was a good article, but the argument had me already cringing when I saw the dangling appendix of comments turning the page into a long scrolling adventure. I love staring into the abyss, so I took a peek. And I was surprised:
There is a very very thin line between the strong man and The Oppressor—and the perception of where a man stands on that line is a day-to-day gamble. The problem is, while women say they want these things, they also actively destroy men’s desire to embody them. What we are left with are man-children who choose to ignore the mixed signals, see that there is no sense crossing this particular minefield, and just turn on the Xbox instead.
The comment was written by a man expressing a common frustration, one that I’ve heard among my single male friends, with whom the dating game is fraught with rejection, and not for being a churl or creep, but from the worry that holding a door or pulling out a chair for a woman may be seen as a thoughtlessly sexist act. So I went to the great town hall of our common age, Facebook, and started a discussion about what gestures are and are not acceptable.
Are traditionally chivalric gestures inherently sexist?
“I was actually thinking about this over the weekend,” my friend Erica wrote. “Walking into a building with a handful of dudes, we were talking and joking. One of them opened a door for me and it made me stop and think: This is an acknowledgment that I am not on equal footing here. I didn’t like it. So I opened the next door for them.”
The door was held, as she put it, only for her. So, she made it a point to return the favor. But to some, context is key.
“I don’t think chivalry and gallantry are condescending unless they are meant condescendingly,” Lillian wrote. “There’s a big difference between ‘Ah, little girl can’t do things for herself so I guess I’ll step in and take care of her in with my enormous man hands’ and ‘This is a way for me to express that I value you.’ I take care of people I love too and I don’t think it’s condescending.”
Confused? In short, just hold the damn door if you’re the first person there, and you’ll wind up looking all right.
I can be your hero, baby.
My friend Dan is a big, gorilla of a man. He lumbers when he walks, makes other men nervous, and the only thing he loves more than macabre cinema is kittens. Young, small ladies flock to him by the score. One of his ex-girlfriends once told me she always felt safe when he was around and the fact that he was gentle with her made his potentially fearsome defense of her in any hypothetical situation really hot.
Strong men are sexy, but confidence was the big kicker for Dan. Dan carries himself like his body was made to be the perfect engine for cuddles or tossing three men out of a door. But the fact he’s not constantly out smashing men in the face in a desperate attempt to be the hero of the beach is what makes his strong physical attributes appealing. In short, he is not a jerk.
Pictured here: Not how Dan meets ladies.
I’m not saying all men who are beefy muscle mountains get women. I am most definitely not a mass of brawn (my wife, and half of everyone I ever dated can fireman’s carry me anywhere). In fact, women and men are attracted to a confidence and self-assurance that puts them at ease. And strength isn’t just in your arm, but your head. A great musician, comedian, or writer* that’s self-possessed of their talent is dead sexy. And it’s not threatening. A slight swagger based in what you do well is attractive.
Being the hero doesn’t mean you have to wrestle five bears, but lord it should.
Who initiates the kiss?
Initiating affection is something that has caused a lot of Sturm und Drang in my fellow gentlemen’s lives. I’ve also heard many of my lady friends lament that they would love, for once, if the guy they were interested in initiated something. For my male friends, almost all of them agree that the number one reason they don’t initiate anything isn’t because of a fear of rejection (though it’s part of it), it’s that they don’t want to appear “rapey.” Maybe this is a localized problem in Massachusetts, but I definitely see their concern as valid.
There is a commonly held belief that a man needs to be very mindful of how he initiates contact with a woman and to make sure he has the consent of his date/dance partner/fellow comic book geek before he kisses them. But this flies in the face of the romantic movies we watch, the romantic stories we read, and every Ayn Rand sex scene in her novels.
50 Shades of Ayn.
Here’s the thing: this isn’t a Robin Thicke song, it’s romance we’re talking about. Yes, ladies like overtures and initiative. They also like not being pawed at when they’re not interested. If you can’t tell, that’s a problem in the short term. It’s not a reason to reach for the Playstation 3 controller and start killing cops on GTA until you’re 50. If you’re unsure, talking to the lady about your intentions is the best way to go (and admittedly the most nerve-wracking). But the reward is make-outs and a decent time. Yes, we’d prefer everything to go off without a hitch and Forrest Gump our way into bed with each other, but so little in this world is that easy.
So what do women want?
Here’s the thing. There’s no essentialist archetype for the perfect mate. The funny thing is this: if all women confound you, look at the lowest common denominator in the equation. If all women are crazy, emasculating harpies then your attraction to them is certainly a statement on your own mental health.
Women and men often have contradictory desires, and this is nothing new. The secret is to be honest about what you want in a relationship, know who you are, and be at peace with it. It’s likely there’s someone out there for you. So what if you strike out a ton? Those who question and rebuff your affection from the beginning aren’t worth your time anyway. So long as you’re not a raging ass about it, you should be okay.
Good luck, bud.
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Photo: jonnygoldstein / flickr
I really think that the only thing that matters is confidence. That’s not being an alpha or beta, as they’re called. It’s being a confident person.
Nobody ever made a mistake not getting into a relationship.
Agreed, Sofia. Guys do tend to hold a lot inside. But the “bro code” isn’t all that complicated. ” But somehow, no matter what a woman thinks about bill-splitting, door-holding, etc, first of all she wants respect.” So, in this respect, women are not all that different. Neither are men. There is no danger in keeping the message simple for all of us. It doesn’t strip away our uniqueness or character. We are all attracted to people who are authentic, confident, and skilled at creating an environment and feelings of respect, appreciation, approval, admiration, and acceptance. Wrap those with a… Read more »
If you’re leaving it up to someone else to make you happy, make you feel comfortable, show you respect, etc…. then the problem is with you. YOU should be the one taking care of all that, not insisting that others pick up the slack and wait on you hand & foot.
I can dig where you are coming from.If one is an adult deconstructing this dynamic is anything but easy.Once the brain has been wired to behave in and percieve the world in certain ways, undoing it is exceedingly difficult.It takes a special kind of vigilance and presence that is rare.Unless,like Jules and myself,one has the kind of powerful personal experiences that forces change upon you.Even then,one must be steadfast and hold tight to their prinicipals.
Thanks for this article, great stuff. Also interesting to read the comments and get an idea about how men think about this. (Because seriously, what women think, want, like, dislike is ALL OVER the media (however confusing it is) but it was a true shocker for me to read about what men think because they hold that in for some reason. Like some bro code that can’t be broken…) What I think lots of men forget is that women are actually totally different. And I would love to meet a guy who takes some time to get to know that… Read more »
Why is there so much focus on being what a women wants in a LTR? The person you owe happiness to is yourself. Focus on finding the right match rather than trying to be the right match.
yippee. Nice.
This has one prerequisite. A guy can’t find a match if he is totally unclear on what he is trying to match. It’s easy once you do.
Chris Rock said it best: What do women want?
EVERYTHING.
Muahahahaha.
Mick Jagger said it long before Chris Rock in the song ‘Some Girls’
French girls they want Cartiers/
Italian girls want cars/
American girls want everythingintheworldyoucanpossiblyimagine!
“Yes, ladies like overtures and initiative. They also like not being pawed at when they’re not interested. If you can’t tell, that’s a problem in the short term. It’s not a reason to reach for the Playstation 3 controller and start killing cops on GTA until you’re 50. If you’re unsure, talking to the lady about your intentions is the best way to go (and admittedly the most nerve-wracking).” ok…at what point in time did this turn into something that needs to be laid out for the masses? when did that happen? i’m serious here, because it seems like such… Read more »
I am reluctant to lean in to kiss because I don’t want to make her uncomfy, even asking for a date is nerve racking because of this. Not only is it annoying to deal with feelings of rejection, but it’s annoying to be constantly worried about her being uncomfy. I probably was exposed to way too much ZOMG women live in fear mantra when younger and it’s had it’s effect of making me feel nervous as hell that my size and gender will make them uncomfy (I am 6’6, 300lbs+).
@imadime… Welcome to dating in 2013. The modern day well-educated feminists have stood things on its head! You, as a woman, cannot talk to “strange men”. You need consent to kiss. I guess before you actually kiss a woman, you need to whip out a “hold harmless” agreement. The much touted rape culture nonsense has taken over. Even though there is little evidence to support it. It is black swan. Men are so off balance today they really do not know what, if anything, to say to a woman. Nor do men have the confidence to do as myself: fuck… Read more »
“Men are so off balance today they really do not know what, if anything, to say to a woman. Nor do men have the confidence to do as myself: fuck the feminist rubbish, damn the torpedoes, and just do what you think most women like. This is why the bad boys are so successful, even with feminist women.’
Absofreakinlutely. True, true, true. And men of character and integrity can pull off the exact same energy if they so choose.
Gotta lose the fear.
you know, i have to also believe that there’s just a little bit of the squeaky wheels getting the grease. i have a ton of normal, hot-blooded, attractive, healthy and successful single and dating friends who might not like it if a particular guy tried to kiss them, but wouldn’t necessarily think the guy was trying to attack or rape them–unless he was. but those people don’t tend to write blog posts, tweet or post to facebook about an awesome guy they just met or flock to the comments sections of websites in defense of all the good dates and… Read more »
Hi imadime,
I think what has been happening, is a rapidly increased socialization to see most any kind of unwanted interaction as intended abbuse (be it willful or just social awkwardness/cluelessness).
And also an extremely rapid increase in possibilities to make the perpetrator of just about anything known to the whole world.
” I’ve heard among my single male friends, with whom the dating game is fraught with rejection, and not for being a churl or creep, but from the worry that holding a door or pulling out a chair for a woman may be seen as a thoughtlessly sexist act. ” This stuff drives me nuts. OMG, whatever will she THINK of me if I do this or if I do that. Really? Who cares what she thinks about you??? Which is very different from “who cares what she thinks?” The biggest reasons men fret over what to do, think ,… Read more »
“And try not to care what she thinks about you.”Good luck with that.Presumably,the reason one has invested the time and energy doing what you reccomend-getting to know her intimately- is because one does care if said woman does care.It is apparent that the mainstream values defining how men and women come together continue to disfavor men.It is equally apparent that many,many women don’t care and aren’t looking to give up any of their power.It is a drag dealing with someone who wants all of the control within a context flush with vulnerability. It’s a pretty damn silly and selfish way… Read more »
I agree…handling rejection is tough. One way married or single men can think about it differently is to ask themselves, “Why would I care to be in the company of ANYONE who behaves in ways that show they don’t want to be with me?” Really. Why would you care? A guy who gets this under his belt (eliminates his insecurities) along with a certainty that there IS some woman who would love his company can more easily navigate rejection. Granted, learning to be comfortable in letting those go who don’t belong with you is tough. And learning the confidence required… Read more »
Steve–excellent post!
I loved what you said here–it is spot on!:
“One way married or single men can think about it differently is to ask themselves, “Why would I care to be in the company of ANYONE who behaves in ways that show they don’t want to be with me?” Really. Why would you care?
A guy who gets this under his belt (eliminates his insecurities) along with a certainty that there IS some woman who would love his company can more easily navigate rejection.”
I agree: men should quit worrying about what women want, how to please women, the latest advice on how to measure up to a woman’s standards. That just feeds female entitlement.
@Gina Can you explain to me the philosophy you employed that has allowed you to so casually dismiss objectification of men as comparatively inconsequential? Your globalization of the experiences of all men as the same and your view that dating for many men isn’t difficult suggest you know very little about the experiences of men.The objectification of men is real and just as onerous and limiting as what women face.That,it seems to me, is WHY GMP exists,to redefine the limits inherent in objectification of men.Your view ignores the reality that men and women objectify each other.Which of course keeps in… Read more »
@og, lol. I too have noticed a major lack of agency amongst some women in taking responsibility for the world today. This idea of women being just slaves to the big bad men’s ideas is ridiculous, especially considering some women today still choose to date the misogynists, etc. Chivalry wouldn’t exist if women were not complicit in it’s undertaking, but hey when you benefit from sexism I guess it isn’t very important on the to remove list….
Gena, i understand what you’re saying but the fact remains, people have made things far more difficult then what they need to be. When i was dating my wife i had no problem with her paying. But then again i knew her. All this second guessing has to be tiring. … should i do this or that. Why can’t people just be themselves? If ya click then okay. … if not,oh well move on
When the wife and I were still fairly ‘newlyweds’ , we went out to dinner one night. She had already insisted that she was ‘picking up’ the check. Now, this was 1975 and attitudes were somewhat different than today. When the check arrived , she went to ‘slip’ me the money. I thought about it and said ‘No, we’re not going to pretend that I paid the bill”! So I let her pay it , and off to the side I saw a man with his date/wife getting quite agitated about this. I went over to him and said ‘Excuse… Read more »
The funny thing is this: if all women confound you, look at the lowest common denominator in the equation. If all women are crazy, emasculating harpies then your attraction to them is certainly a statement on your own mental health.
What if the opposite situation is equally true?
Kal, do you mean opposite as in some women claiming all men are X? They’d be wrong, too, and sadly misguided.
A couple things: 1. You can always ask a lady if she likes certain acts of chivalry or take her lead on these things. Offering to pay for dinner is sweet (ex. “Can I pay for your dinner? Would you mind if I get the check?”). Carte blanche REFUSING to split the check is annoying as hell. I dated a guy once to whom I tried to explain this principle, that I wanted to pay sometimes because having someone pay for me violated my sense of honor. His response “It’s your honor to let me pay.” D’oh. In the same… Read more »
Totally, Gina. And the idea of a man refusing to go through the door because you opened it? Was he an old-school vampire?
And the last paragraph gets to the heart of it, really. I’m blessed to have a ton of smart, wonderful women nerding out with me on a regular basis. Thank you for this!
I’ve had men refuse to walk through the door, too. That’s not chivalry, it’s just fucking obnoxious.
“Teach us to care and not to care. Teach us to sit still.”
And if that’s too highbrow for ya’, it’s all right here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZjAantupsA
There’s rarely a moment that Cameo doesn’t stand up to Eliot. I wish I had a time machine. They’d be fast friends.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said “There’s no essentialist archetype for the perfect mate.”
Btw, that discussion about holding the doors left me confused. I guess I didn’t chivalry, if not dead, was at least not necessarily appreciated.
Hi Larry,
Thanks for the comments. I think that the confusion about the door being held being appreciated or not comes from the fact that there were about seven nuanced answers about that one discussion with the ladies and men I was talking to, but the consensus that even the most “turned off” by the gesture agreed to was “if you’re at the door first, hold it for one or two people.”
I think what makes the difference is whether you are clearly singling out women, and only doing these things for them, rather than simply being a nice person who generally opens doors for other people (female or not, attractive or not). The latter is a good quality, of course, but some women don’t like the former because it says that you’re doing it because you think they can’t, or only because you think they’re attractive and doing favours for them in order to get something from them.
in a word,(hell) yes.Who can possibly keep up with this stuff?Who has the time?And what kind of person is so arrogant and insecure as to have these expectations?
Expectations that make one feel like they’re walking on egg shells just for a chance at kissing times? Yeah. That’s the rub of it. Being naturally nervous when looking to date someone is one thing. However, when it becomes less of a nervous anticipation and more of a sinking feeling that makes one feel they have to misrepresent…then the whole situation gets a lot less attractive.
Thanks for posting, buddy!
Quick follow up … I did a google search “books on dating” …..398,000,000+ …. Some one is getting rich.
Gosh I’m glad that I married when I did because there is no freaking way I could be a single guy now-a-days. I feel for my son .. used to be so simply, didn’t have 1000 different angles, do’s and don’ts, try this, try that, … holy crap ya’ll have made it more difficult then it really can be. Back in the old days the biggest thing a guy had to worry about was what he was gonna wear and what cologne to put on .. clean underwear and his breath smelled okay. You know what’s funny is that with… Read more »
Thanks for writing, Tom! Yeah, I definitely think we are overly concerned. I think the “old days” concerns are still valid (be clean, dudes), but we don’t have be paralyzed.
There’s no secret formula that really works, regardless of what those ads in my spam folder tell me…I mean us. I really think making sure our own heads are screwed on straight before trying to swivel someone else’s is a good way of going out into that terrifying world of romance.