Maria Pawlowska unpacks the problems with the sexual double standard.
Does the sexual-double standard really exist in the 21st century? Is it not just an element of academic feminist discourse? Personally, if you had asked me, I would probably (rudely) not even let you finish it before I responded with a resounding YES! The sexual double standard pervades our culture to such an extent that it’s almost unrecognizable. I mean, all you really need to do is watch the first 15 minutes of the Hollywood blockbuster He’s Just Not That Into You. I say 15 minutes because that’s a long as I lasted before I turned off this [insert invective of choice] movie about how all women want is to get hitched and have a serious relationships and all men want is to fool women into giving them sex (because, obviously, it’s just the men who enjoy one night stands and women indulge their partners hoping their sacrifice will result in a relationship). I’m not saying Hollywood has it all figured out. I’m just saying if they can get the likes of Ben Affleck and Scarlett Johansson to star in romantic comedies of this sort, it’s probably not a niche societal perception.
Another telling fact is that nymphomania only got stricken off the list of mental disease when doctors realized that its definition described women who basically liked sex and were willing to pursue it ‘like men do.’ You might say that the fact nymphomania is no longer a mental illness is progress. It definitely is, however the term is still used so commonly that there is obviously an issue here. Personally, I feel that if something is so deeply entrenched in our culture, it’s guaranteed to influence our lives. So, it’s useful to understand it.
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What exactly is the sexual double standard, you might ask? Quite simply, it means judgmentally applying different sexual standards—whether by others or the person themselves—to members of different sexes. For example—more often than not it will be the women worrying whether they can have sex on a first date and what their partners will think of them. Will he think she was ‘too easy’, isn’t ‘a respectful’ girl, not the ‘marry-able kind’? Similarly, you don’t normally see women bragging about the number of men they slept with and left before he even got up without leaving a phone number. It’s women who are usually left waiting for him to call. Otherwise they may appear too eager, no? What’s really nasty about the sexual double standard, however, is that it’s a double-edged sword and the men get their share of nastiness. Men are expected to be the ones initiating conversations, flings, relationships, and intercourse. They’re supposed to want sex 24/7 and spend most of the time they’re not doing it thinking about it. They should be able to support an on-demand erection, no matter the time, place, or circumstances. You never hear about men getting bedtime ‘headaches’ (and certainly don’t see silly newspaper cartoons about it).
The sexual double standard can commonly be seen masquerading as “natural tendencies” or “the product of evolution”. Who hasn’t heard at least one theory about how men are not designed for monogamy and women want to settle and have babies as soon as possible? Such biological determinism is particularly aggravating for me because I’m trained as an evolutionary biologist. I have a particular interest in the evolutionary biology, physiology, and sociology of sex. And let me assure that it’s the sociology part of things that has the greatest influence on what today’s Homo sapiens’ sex lives look like. The jury is still out on the details, but it is clear that sexual temperament is mostly down to individual variation. A wife might enjoy sex more than her husband and not be satisfied with the once a week he likes, not because she is an ‘oversexed nympho’ and he’s ‘a loser who can’t satisfy her’. It’s because—plain and simple—they have different sexual temperaments.
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We’re willing to put down almost every other preference to personal variation (women can even like playing rugby and football now and boys are increasingly seen in dancing classes) but not when it comes to sex. And it’s not really our fault—from a very early age we’re socialized to believe girls and women like ‘cuddling and talking about feelings’ while boys and men are really ‘interested in just one thing’. If I got a penny for every time a friend asked me if there was really nothing wrong with her if she wants sex once a day (which is more often than her partner does) or I got damming looks for speaking about sex openly and loudly (such un-lady-like behaviour!) I could make a sizable donation to Planned Parenthood.
The sexual standard is something that creeps into our relationships and deteriorates our sex lives every time we double-check ourselves, not because we’re thinking of our likes and the dislikes of our partner’s, but rather because we’ve internalized societal expectations. Mutual consent should form the basis of sexual relationships and not our preconceived expectations of gender roles. Sex should be negotiated between the people involved—and it’s about as easy to type these words, as it is difficult to deal with it in real life. Mostly because we come with baggage—personal and cultural. But the moment we become aware of it—and realize why we’re having all these doubts and worries and that maybe our partner is having them too—it becomes so much easier to try to leave that baggage behind the bedroom door.
—Photo Flickr/ChunkyBacon
You are NOT allowed to even suggest that there is a double standard here because then they say that you are whining and complaining … so it is better to not even bring it up.They will NOT even discuss it with you.
the real reason that there is still a sexual double standard is because of women . women call other women sluts and whores based on the sex they have , but do not call men whores and sluts for their sexual activity . even if they do women do not think a man is undesirable for it . women do think that other women and therefor themselves are undesirable for their sexual experience . women will all say that men call women sluts and whores too . there are 2 differences . the men who call women sluts and whores… Read more »
Of course there’s a double standard. Double standards, apart from being about discrimination, are also about plain differences between groups. There are double standards (that go both ways) between races, genders, and every group breakdown, simply because we’re not all the same. So, yeah, there’s a sex double standard between men and women. The only way to get rid of it is to get rid of gender differences. But obviously, by looking at other mammal species and by examining our own, there are significant sexual differences between men and women, and thus, behaviors that aren’t “okay” for men and vice… Read more »
But what behaviors do you think are okay for men and not women? If they are sexual ones, how can that work?
I laugh at the idea that women are afraid to approach men. In the 90’s, therapists like Nina Atwood wrote books like “Be Your Own Dating Service.” Back then, Atwood encouraged women to ask men out. However, she did a complete about-face in the 21st century and wrote a book called “The Seven Temptations of the Single Girl.” In that book, she told women to wait for the man to ask them out. Why? Because so many women who took the initiative had such bad experiences. Atwood said that when she was courting her ex-husband, Jack Atwood, she always took… Read more »
Equal Pay????
Men and Women in the US and Canada do receive equal pay or equal work when factors such as education, seniority, weekly work hours and a few other factors are taken into account.
Only lasts until women have children. Then women usually put more time into the family, men put it into work – anyhow that’s what the statistics show.
Iris:
What’s wrong with that? Your logical statement differs greatly from NOW and other feminist institutions that claim the hourly rate paid to women and men for full time work differs by as much as 28%.
If putting more time in w/family is what women find fulfilling, then where is the discrimination feminists holler about?
Men are 95% of on-the-job deaths. I don’t hear anything from feminists on that. $$$$$$ are not the only way to show victimization as far as work/life balance goes.
Another way to view the dating world, is not conquering, but approaching. Even very charming men get shot down more often than it leads to something. By being passive, women reserve the right to choose among the seekers. To couch this in terms of “conquering” is like saying that the woman who turns down offers from nice stable guys to bed only men who make over $150k is anything but the men “conquering”. The way you state it makes it sound like it’s all about predatory men, when in fact it is all about predations on both sides. Moreover, it… Read more »
As an interesting aside to this topic, there is evidence of a double standard, but not the one we are discussing. It’s really funny in fact. Some of you may have heard of that study where a stranger approaches a member of the opposite sex on campus (why is it always on campus? Gads!) and asks them if they would sleep with them. Unsurprisingly, most women say no and most men say yes. While I was looking for articles referencing that study I came upon this discussion of that study. http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/gender-differences-and-casual-sex-the-new-research/ It’s better than most discussions as the author seems… Read more »
And just to be clear, what I’m saying is that the real double standard is this: “Women think men are creeps. Men think women are viable sex partners.” I know that this is not what women THINK they think about men, but the evidence in this study shows that these beliefs strongly influence how women actually behave. I note that this generalization about women only applies to COLLEGE WOMEN. I sincerely hope that older, more experienced women don’t live in the same men = creeps mindset that apparently exists in college aged women. However, given the significant influence that these… Read more »
TWO,
You make an excellent point! Yes, there is fear involved for women. I’m pretty slutty but I do take precautions to ensure my safety. If I’m in the mood to pick up guys I usually do so at an establishment where I know the owner and many of the workers. Really, though, my best bet is to attend sex parties. Most sex parties have rules to make the women feel safe. It is a contained environment that is far different from picking up a guy in a bar.
Oh, and I want to say that I don’t view all men as creeps but I am very aware of the size differential between myself and most men (I am on the short side) and the potential danger of some of the situations I put myself in. Since I know I cannot match a man on a physical level, I use my social network to help me stay safe. It also helps that I don’t use alcohol or other substances.
That doesn’t sound like a double standard so much as a difference in how men and women look at strangers. Women don’t think men are creeps. They think some men are creeps. They also know that men are stronger than them. So they’re justifiably cautious about going home with a strange man. Most women have also had some experiences with strangers who approach them looking for sex who act more than a little odd. That shouldn’t be so surprising. People who are disturbed are more likely to lose their inhibitions. So when a strange guy on campus comes up and… Read more »
Adding to my earlier comment, I think the more interesting question is why so many men said “yes” to the strange woman who wanted sex. They should have seen her behavior as outrageous based on social/cultural norms, suggesting that she was unbalanced or crazy, or had an ulterior motive like robbery, yet they were still willing to go off with her somewhere. NOT SMART.
Good points, Wet One, and I might add that if a strange man walked up to me and asked for sex, I would assume he was crazy. Because no one in their right mind does something like that. Only a crazy man would do that. I would think, “here is a guy who is a certifiable nutcase, clearly unbalanced and possibly dangerous. How can I get away from him as quickly as possible before he stabs me?” I’m really not exaggerating. That’s what would go through my head. It’s not an irrational fear of meeting the next Ted Bundy (who… Read more »
Where do Black Women & men fit into all of this? Black women are said to be “unrape-able” because they are always “ready & willing.” And Black men are said to be hypersexual.
Hmmm. That’s an intriguing bit of racsim there. Care to flesh it out some more for us?
The Wet One
And no, I’m not joking. Please, do go on… Dig that hole deeper. You wouldn’t happen to have some endorsement deals to flush down the toilet would you? We’d love to know!
Wow. These comments are kind of interesting. I think I’ll add my perspective here. In the larger scheme of things, the sexual double standard is not super important. Yes, double standards exist everywhere. In some places, child custody and alimony payments do not reflect current society. Yes, that often sucks for men, especially today’s men who are more involved in parenting than ever. How easy is it for a woman to get laid? Actually, it’s fairly easy. I am a fairly promiscuous woman and am rarely turned down when it comes to sex. I do think it is probably easier… Read more »
Jeni, I don’t know how old you are, but women going to sex parties are mostly statistical outliers. In my experience and from what I have read, most women when dating (even if only trying to “have fun”) have long term relationships on their hind brain. This applies less so for women in their 20’s especially if they are career building but, never disappears. Like men (who have thick skins to approach a lot of women, and skills at building rapport, heat, and charm) will date beautiful women first and hope that women has redeeming characteristics for possible LTR later,… Read more »
My point is that I think, since women get to do the choosing it would make much more sense for there to be a goodwoman project, than a good man project.
If women only had sex with hard-working respectful men, then there would cease being thugs, pickup artists, and players.
John D, I understand what you are saying. You’re right, a lot of women engage in casual relationships hoping to turn it into a LTR through the power of their “magic hoo-hoo”. It’s kinda like Cinderella and her glass slipper… What can I say? Girls tend to be sold a bill of goods very early on. I have seen women of all ages, but particularly, women in their 20s date young men who, given the kind of society we live in are not daddy-marriage material. Some are players and some are hippies. They end up being dissatisfied eventually because they… Read more »
Jeni,
I think one of John’s points is that your experience is not generalizable to most women, and that has less to do with “society” and more to do with the fact that you are basically an outlier, both by your previous experiences and, it seems, personality.
Yeah, you may be right…but, gosh, I sure do have a lot of fun!
Jeni, you’re a true credit to our species. I tip my hat and rase my glass to you!
Cheers!
The Wet One
Hey, John…I enjoyed your statement: “The average dating “Having fun” women in her 20′s will unceremoniously shoot down an awkward but respectful and hard-working $150k/year chemical engineer and move forward with a fast-talking suave confident blue-collar guy simply because the guy shows an ability to pass a few sh*t-tests. The simple fact is that hard-working poindexter most likely would have made a much better life-mate, with lots of interesting perspectives and stories and a fulfilling life for the woman.” I find it interesting that hard-working Poindexter took a shot at that 20-something “have fun” gal rather than some 30 or… Read more »
Where did I use the term “hottie”? I said average woman in her 20’s. You’re inferring something that I didn’t say. The simple truth is that even a woman who is simply a 5 in looks expects a FLAWLESS approach from men. To base who you mate with on suaveness and bs pillowtalk is pretty immature and shallow. Why should a woman who is a 5 expect a don juan? These poindexters aren’t just “settling” they are doing without female companionship (due to the ass-backwards desires of women) for most of their 20’s. These guys typically don’t marry until their… Read more »
Wait, John, you are being totally inconsistent. Either the 22-year-old hotties are rejecting Poindexter or they’re not. You are accusing women in their 20’s of only wanting “fun guys” then realizing when they are washed up, 35-year-old hags that they really want Poindexter, only Poindexter (who they rejected 15 years ago because he wasn’t fun) is now out wowing the 22-year-olds with his sensible fixed rate mortgage and his 401k? Actually, my observation is that the proverbial Poindexter who gets in a relationship in his 30’s or 40’s usually finds a woman his own age or at most a few… Read more »
Jill I’m picking up what you’re putting down. A guy cannot complain he’s being overlooked by the hotty who is off dating a jerk…only to not go after the 6/7 who probably has more in common with him.
I will never understand this…it’s like we’re selecting ourselves down to a lonely life.
yell me all of for blow job openly,easy langvege>pappu
Oh and btw: my point is not that men don’t have a preference for hot women, my point is that men will basically settle for ANYTHING. Women don’t. Well, most don’t. You might be the exception to the rule, but sociology is a numbers game.
On a campus with many women, women tend to have more sex and shorter relationships and are less satisfied in a relationship because they compete for fewer guys who therefore have a higher bargaining power. On a campus with few women, the exact opposite is true. Go figure.
Do you understand how gross that statement can seem to women? That for men all there has to be is a vagina? Why on earth would any woman be able to trust you in bed if she knows that her vagina is just, well, a hole for you (or men that you say believe like you) to masturbate in? As a woman, why on earth would I want to have sex like that? Maybe, just maybe if every woman got off easily on penetration, no work, no difficulty and no risk of pregnancy, then it would be an even trade… Read more »
Yes Julie, I understand that this statement seems gross to women. Which proves my point: male and female sexuality is different. Therefore, there is no double standard.-
Elmar, I think you’re missing part of her point about the differences in male and female sexuality. You can get off using her, she can’t get off using you. Why then should she want to let a man use her?
Well, of all the men I have had sex with (and my number is well above the median), there was only one who treated me like I was just a vagina. Sigh…unfortunately, he was my husband. Anyhow, I’ve had lots of casual sex with men. They’ve always been interested in seeing to my pleasure. I think most guys are more turned on by a woman who enjoys sex than one who doesn’t. I don’t see much incentive for them to use women as a masturbation tool and nothing else. Black Iris does have a point though. If a woman doesn’t… Read more »
There is no sexual double standard in the strict sense, since a double standard is defined as an unjustified application of different sets of principles in the same or at least similar situations. Everyone knows, the sexual situation of men and women isn’t even remotely comparable. Any half way decent looking girl from the age of 13-14 can have sex anytime and anywhere she wants. Any half way decent looking woman can enter any bar or club at any given day and simply shout “Who wants to have sex with me tonight” and she’ll probably be surrounded by horny men… Read more »
@Elmar. I consider my self a fairly good looking woman. I disagree with your statement about the ease of sex for women. And just shouting “who wants to have sex with me” is a highly unlikely scenario, one that I have never witnessed, but I am fairy certain would not be successful. It would be funny, but no one would see it as a serious invitation. As a woman I do have to “work” for it. Simply because both men and women do not just go home with whatever is offered to them, but because I see someone I’d like… Read more »
Oh come on, just listen to yourself. If you are fairly good looking, I would have sex immediatly with you. Right now. You don’t HAVE to shout, that’s the point. Men are probably approaching you anyways. Yes, you might have been rejected by those decent guys that YOU are looking for. But why are you looking for a decent guy anyways when so many are available that would have sex with you right now (like me)? Because, just as I’ve said, you have a higher preference for a relationship with a decent guy than for sex. Or at least for… Read more »
Why would I want to have sex with a guy who is not attracted to me or thinks I’m ugly? I mean, really, what’s the point of that? Maybe that is the fundamental difference between men and women. Men din’t care what the woman thinks of him, if she’s willing. Also, If I walked I to a bar and shouted “come have sex with me,” wow, I shudder to think about the kid of creepy guys who would respond, not to mention that it would probably lead to a gang rape. Any guy who responded to an offer like that… Read more »
“Why would I want to have sex with a guy who is not attracted to me or thinks I’m ugly? I mean, really, what’s the point of that?” Ahh… The joys of being a woman (especially an attractive one). Many men (perhaps even most) don’t think such thoughts, not in a serious fashion anyways. Perhaps the walking into a bar thing is a bit too facile. The newspaper ad though, a more discrete approach, certainly hits the spot. Ever seen the mug shots of hookers? Not necessarily the best looking bunch (even accounting for the terrible pictures that mugshots result… Read more »
Men are saddled with the responsibility of approaching. The simple fact is despite how many hard-core feminists here talk about there being no gender differences, there is one gender difference most of them will not touch: most women are petrified of initiating with a man. The secret is that a great proportion of men are also petrified of initiating. It takes a very thick skin. This is why a small subset of men (10-20%) have much more dates, sex, sex partners (and on average more beautiful female partners). When you have a thick skin and approach women 25 times a… Read more »
Johnny D my friend, I did do something (sadly long after my 20’s but better late than never). I paid. I paid good money and got good sex. Money well spent. I also went on Plenty of Fish and went on every date I could get. End result, my wonderful sweet love and I met, and no more paying for it. I recommend it for all men similarly situation. Kill the sexual frustration and date like a maniac. It’s basically a numbers game, so eventually you’ll find satisfaction. I figure it took about 60 -70 first dates myself and about… Read more »
Hi again John, I realize I’m responding to this comment late, but…. While women, like men, certainly fear rejection, the main reason I didn’t like to make the first move in my younger dating days is that I had no way of knowing what a “yes” meant. As the other commenters above have indicated, men will take opportunities for sex even with women they don’t particularly like and aren’t terribly attracted to. Therefore, the fact that a guy is willing to have sex with me means absolutely nothing. In my 20’s, even though I was not particularly a hottie, I… Read more »
One reason women are more hesitant to just go home with any guy is that there’s no guarantee the sex will be physically satisfying. Men can assume that it will because it’s easier for them to orgasm outside of masturbation.
Another reason is that men are generally bigger and stronger than women. A woman could get hurt or be forced to do something she doesn’t want to.
It’s still true that women have more to risk in terms of getting pregnant or catching an STD.
And maybe, finally, we’re just more visual than guys. 🙂
Lovely. Women believe that they’re generally physically satisfying to men.
Newsflash — men rate women on the basis of sexual ability as well. Let’s get rid of THAT double standard as well, no?
Men may rate women on their sexual ability, but they don’t seem concerned about it beforehand. My point is that men do orgasm more easily than women. They tend to move in ways that make them orgasm. They don’t even have to think about it. Women can’t assume that it will happen for them. So I think the calculation going on in the back of a woman’s mind is will I actually have a good time sexually? How will this guy treat me? He’s bigger than me, can I trust him? What if he doesn’t want to use a condom… Read more »
Black Iris, I see where you are coming from on this but I have to respond. The position you are taking here is a very disempowered one. It avoids taking responsibility for one’s own sexuality and pleasure. I hear it over and over again from women and it frustrates the heck out of me. Again, if the woman isn’t willing to walk away from a man who will not respect her boundaries, then SHE has a serious problem. Don’t have sex with men who don’t want to wear condoms unless you’re in a long-term, serious relationship with him. Honestly, if… Read more »
I think her point was that some sex is good and some is lousy, and having sex with an unknown person can turn out to be lousy no how sexually empowered you are — but for some reason men seem to worry about this a lot less than women do. Maybe it’s because men are excited to have a random hookup and they know they will probably orgasm even if the sex is bad, while women have no such guarantee. (Honestly, I would not be terribly aroused if a guy was so inept at pleasing me, even with instruction, that… Read more »
Jill,
I suppose you have a point. Since I always orgasm multiple times regardless of the quality of sex I guess that makes me like a man. Also, I prefer penetrative sex. I do have dildos I use for masturbation but, the truth is, they don’t replace a live cock and the body that accompanies it.
men worry less about if sex is going to be good or bad because men understand that bad sex is better than no sex . just because a man cums does not mean he was satisfied , or even enjoyed the sex . sex is only as good as the people having it make it . women typically take a passive role during sex and rely on the man to make it good for her . many men prefer sex with a one stranger or a one night stand because when women dont expect to ever see the guy again… Read more »
One reason women are more hesitant to just go home with any guy is that there’s no guarantee the sex will be physically satisfying. Men can assume that it will because it’s easier for them to orgasm outside of masturbation.
And there’s also that who thing about men being assumed to never turn down sex making them more willing to just go home with any woman….
Oh, Elmar, love, you are truly a scream! To quote: “Oh come on, just listen to yourself. If you are fairly good looking, I would have sex immediatly with you. Right now.” You have GOT to be one of this world’s total horn-dogs with a statement that broad and silly. Saying that with a straight face must have been difficult. Human sexuality is an intricate dance. Perhaps in the Stone Age a male could just grab any available female and have a hot romp in the grass, but it’s a far cry from that simplicity now. The sexual double standard… Read more »
Obviously, I was exaggerating to prove a point. Today, mainly for religious reasons, I llike to think of myself as a “true love can wait” kind of guy, even though I wouldn’t bet on my strenght to pull that attitude through. But just a couple of years ago? Say, in a night club? You bet, I would have humped almost every girl that showed a bit of interest in me, and I promise you that most College guys I knew back then were just like me.
I agree with much of what you wrote, especially with the annoyance towards ‘evolutionary’ arguments. As a scientist, and a neuroscientist at that, its hard for me not to roll my eyes whenever I hear it. I think another important negative consequence of the double standard is the flip side of what you wrote. Our society actively discourages men (especially young men) from wanting – or at least saying that they want – romantic relationships that are based on more than just casual sex. Heaven forbid that not all of your free time is spent trying to get another notch… Read more »
Well, I’m a doctor in the neuroscience field, and I can argue that lots of evolutionary theory DOES have merit. It’s only people with a political agenda that try to constantly delegitimize it. There’s also the double standard of men getting married and summarily getting divorced and legally losing most of their assets and their children to their wives in this, most egalitarian era. Heaven forbid that while ridding ourselves of the Casanova double standard that puts women on the short end of the stick, we also rid ourselves of the Legalized Gold-Digger double standard that puts men on the… Read more »
The problem is that in pop culture we tend to focus on the aspects of evolutionary theories that fit our culture and how men and women act. If you look at evolutionary biology, what they’re talking about now is how females in many species have multiple partners, even when they seem to be paired up with a male. Sperm competition wouldn’t happen if female animals were monogamous. So why are people always trotting out biology to excuse human males who cheat?
Actually, I should have said that pop culture focuses on the part of the theories that fit our IDEA of how men and women act.
In real life, men are interested in long-term relationships. They don’t want to break up. For human males, that makes a lot of sense biologically, but we don’t see that because it doesn’t fit out idea of what masculinity and femininity should be.
Doesn’t the theory of sperm competition excuse female cheating?
Pop culture doesn’t talk about sperm competition that much. That’s more something biologists talk about.
My point is that pop culture picks up on the aspects of evolutionary biology that fit popular ideas about guys. Guys are supposed to be sperm spreaders, women are supposed to be desperately pushing for monogamy. In real life, men want and need long-term partners.
While women want and need to be taken by every high quality stud that passes by, amiright black iris?
I think you’re confused and in denial. You know you don’t really believe what you’re saying in this article and that something doesn’t feel right. Interesting that you’re an analyst. I wonder how old you are. You sound young. Maybe mid 20s.
You’ve got me confused Cringing. Please explain.
I think what Cringing is saying is that he or she disagrees with the article, has no facts or analysis to back up his or her opinion, and is looking for an irrelevant point on which to dismiss it. He or she would like the author’s assistance in this endeavor. If the author could please confirm an age in her mid-20s, that would help Cringing avoid a neural circuitry meltdown.
The other piece of the sexual double standard – despite what happens to powerful men who cheat, in the end they do better than the women who cheat with them.
Clinton is an influential politician now. Lewinsky is the name of a scandal.
Spitzer didn’t go to jail, he went to work for his dad and then had a TV talk show. He sent plenty of prostitutes and madams to jail, though.
What about that governor who was forced to step down? I don’t remember his name, but he spent $200k of taxpayers money on that stripper with the greek name.I heard she was writing a book.
Also, I heard Lewinsky was writing a book and even hosting a talk show.
It seems to me that you’re arguing apples and oranges. You’re comparing powerful men to basically middle-class women.
I would argue that these women are actually doing better than they would otherwise have done. How high would you expect a stripper and intern to rise really?
I think White House interns are usually kids from families with political connections. They’re educated and upper class. So yes, I expect Lewinski could have gone on and had a political career of her own, if she hadn’t been caught servicing the President. As for prostitutes, going to jail is definitely worse than what happened to Spitzer. I don’t see writing books and going on talk shows as having a good or successful life. Some quick money, but it’s the kind of fame that haunts you for careers or relationships. Nothing like being a big political leader or TV show… Read more »
Iris: There are many THOUSANDS of interns, in congress and state legislatures. I doubt even 30% of them become movers and shakers. It’s like college football. While 99% of NFL players played college footbal, only 5% of college football players go to the NFL. You’re building a false association. The woman with the greek name did not go to jail. She was a stripper, not a prostitute. And their arrangement was not outright payments for sex acts. She did not go to jail. My understanding is he paid her rent & bought her expensive gifts. If a stripper got some… Read more »
Obviously, interns don’t all grow up to be President. It is, however, a good boost on your resume. I suspect that if you could follow them, you’d find a lot of highly successful people in law and politics.
I’m not sure where the stripper you’re talking about comes from. Spitzer went to prostitutes. He didn’t go to jail, but he sent prostitutes to jail.
I think in terms of sex drives that there may be a real difference with being more likely to be the hornier ones. Couples were women are hornier are a significant group and it’s harmful if they’re told they’re unnatural, but I think there may be a quantitative biological difference.
Is there a sexual double standard? My resounding answer is: who cares? There are lots of double standards. Some offer advantages to men. Others offer advantages to women (of course feminism doesn’t like to acknowledge or mention those). But, in the overall scheme of things, if there is any such double standard, it makes zero difference. For multiple reasons. For one – we have actual social, educational, and financial problems to deal with – including real double standards with men on the short end of the stick. But, feminism doesn’t permit the mention of such things. Secondly, as… Read more »
“…if you do what you know and are convinced is right, you don’t need to care about what other people think. If they disagree, it’s because they are mis- or ill-informed, or weak crowd-followers.”
I bet Hitler thought that way about Jews. Perhaps I should reference a more modern example such as Ander Behring Breivik One should be wary of moral absolutism and certainty. Even one’s own. That same certainty can lead one very far down the path to the dark side.
Just saying.
Men getting the short end of a double standard has a lot to do with a lot of feminists who think men have had it better for long enough that ‘reverse discrimination’ is justified.
You make a lot of correct points.
Unfortunately, men getting the short end of a double standard also has a lot to do with the way a lot of men such as yourself, bring the points up in a confrontational AND victimized tone.
The feminists have the market cornered on being victims.
It’s not any tone of victimization. If you read that article, you will see a real, true double standard enforced by the courts, not just one based on perception.
Notice how zjsimon tries to blame men for the fact that a double standard AGAINST men exists?
Intriguing how our society is totally ok with blaming victims of a system…when it’s men as victims.
Oh, and I didn’t realize that our country was based on laws that prosecuted citizens for the crimes of their ancestors. Maybe zjsimon wants to rewrite the constitution.
I think you’ll find that he’s stating what he sees is happening, not endorsing it…
Eee-yikes you soumd angry and buurrrrrned, Eric. 🙁
The sexual double standard is life affecting, that’s the point.
Oh and women pay alimony too.
According to the latest stats that I have read for every 1$ that is paid in alimony men pay 98.2 cents of it, when women make it to 10 cents on the dollar come back and talk about women paying alimony. My husband is currently paying alimony (thank god it is up next year) to his ex even though she works and make slighly more than he does, why ???, because when they divorced she convinced a judge that she didn’t make any money.
Men make more money than women, so it’s not surprising that they’d end up paying more alimony. The gap in men’s and women’s earnings starts when women get married and have kids. Women, in general, put more hours into taking care of the children and home and less into their career. They may even take some time off. Often moms ends up behind their husbands in earnings. So long as more couples act like this instead of having the guys stay home, we’ll have more women needing alimony than men. We just need to make sure that at-home dads can… Read more »
Iris says:
“Men make more money than women, so it’s not surprising that they’d end up paying more alimony.
The gap in men’s and women’s earnings starts when women get married and have kids.”
the key word earnings, not PAY. This is not discriminatory as feminists would have us believe, but due to women’s choices.
If women also chose to make the same decisions of putting career first, then they would EARN the same as men.
But when a mother puts children before her career, the guy also benefits. They are his children. Parents are a team who divide up the work. It’s not fair if the one who does the work outside the labor force gets punished for that.
Jesus, yeah only “real social problems” have men on the short end of the stick. Not those “unreal” problems women have…
I’m with you on the whole evolutionary front. The biological determinist arguments tend to oversimplify the differences into “all men” and “all women” and “the one way that you’re programmed to be.” My guess is that human natural selection has actually led to a diversity of sexuality, not a single blueprint. That fact that we’re NOT all the same way and may have highly variable sex drives and preferences sounds like a pretty good survival mechanism to me. Our survival as a species may have been powered by our sexual adaptability, not by a single “ought to be.” Not all… Read more »
On the flip side, it’s really obnoxious when the man in a heterosexual relationship has the greater sex drive and the woman who doesn’t, and then everyone says “aha! it’s because of your genders!” Whichever partner wants it more or less, the double standard is terrific for getting in the way and accomplishing nothing.
I agree. Repressive gender roles and societal expectations are still commonplace, even in our “enlightened” times. Too many angry activists on both sides are still acting like it’s a zero-sum competition–if we pay attention to men’s problems, we’re taking support away from women’s, or vice-versa.
But that attitude only perpetuates the problem, by adopting a NEW double standard. Shifting to new and different flavors of injustice and unreasonable expectations is not the same as solving the underlying problem.
Perfect! Thank you!