Rick Belden shares some of his thoughts on why elders seem to be largely absent from the lives and experience of younger men.
This was previously published on poetry, dreams, and the body.
The other day, I read a very timely post written by Jayson Gaddis called “What I Got From The Inter-Generational Dialogue Between Men”. Jayson began his post as follows:
After eight months of gathering together, the leadership team of the Boulder Men’s Experience (BME) decided to pick a theme for the BME-8: Elders. While the BME has been a deep and rich experience that has been able to serve a wide spectrum of men at various levels of development, we felt that one obvious thing had been missing—older men.
Jayson went on to explore this subject, and reflect on his personal experience with it, in greater detail in the context of a recent men’s group focused on the topic of what I’ve previously called “an absence of elders.”
I left a comment in response to Jayson’s post and felt it was worth repeating here:
Jayson, I think you hit on something important here regarding the absence of older men at these gatherings: they don’t see themselves as elders. Furthermore, they don’t see themselves as having anything of value to give younger men, nor do they see younger men as wanting anything they might have to offer.
All of that has certainly been true for me, and the problem is not new. It goes back several generations. In the program A Gathering of Men in 1989, Robert Bly said, “I never realized that young men needed anything I had to give them.” When I first heard him say this, I was 32. I’m 54 now and struggling with the very same issue.
Don’t like ads? Become a supporter and enjoy The Good Men Project ad freeI think it’s also true that many men my age simply have very little personal contact with younger men, outside their carefully prescribed roles in work and family, and therefore have very little opportunity to connect with them in meaningful ways. Without that experience, an older man simply has no context for understanding what is needed and what he can offer in response.
I worry that, if I fully accept my power and responsibility as an older man, I might turn into one of those old bastards who sold me out and are still selling out our men, young and old, even now.Another factor for men my age, I believe, is that we came of age during a time when distrust of men in authority was deep and pervasive, and for good reason. It was hard to see any man in a position of authority as an ally or a helper who cared and could be trusted, much less as a friend.
I still carry that distrust of authority within me. To see myself, or for other people to see me, as some sort of authority in any context generates a great deal of cognitive dissonance in me. I’m still resisting because part of me still sees a man who embodies and projects authority as the enemy. I worry that, if I fully accept my power and responsibility as an older man, I might turn into one of those old bastards who sold me out and are still selling out our men, young and old, even now.
Finally, as you said, a lot of men my age simply haven’t done the developmental work that’s needed to prepare them to sit and listen to another without trying to offer advice, fix what they see as a problem, or defend themselves. If you can’t sit with your own discomfort (or even feel it), you’re probably going to have a hard time doing it for someone else.
It hurts me to think that younger men might have anger and distrust for me as an individual because of my age, but I can certainly understand it. I remember, when I was in my early 30s, telling a man fifteen years my senior (a man I liked and respected) how angry and disappointed I was with his generation for dropping the ball, being so selfish, and leaving such a mess for my generation. I could hardly disagree with a younger man who might want to say the same thing now to me, or to any man of my generation.
I recommend reading Jayson’s blog post to get the full context of the discussion. This is a deep area, largely unacknowledged and unexplored, and there’s a lot more than can be said.
For another take from me on this subject, see “Coming to Terms with an Absence of Elders”.
Read more by Rick Belden and Jayson Gaddis on The Good Men Project.
Why aren’t more older men showing up for younger men? by Rick Belden, unless otherwise expressly stated, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.
Image of two men portrait on white courtesy of Shutterstock
Hi. I’m only 24. I am an adult instructor teaching music to army cadets aged 12 to 18. And so I can put myself in the middle of the young and old category. A big part of my life is instilling self confidence and discipline and well knowledge in youth, and knowing that a large number of my cadets have parents in the army some often posted abroad i have seen and felt the difference in boys that have their fathers overseas and it is huge. I try to support them but I am fully aware that I need support… Read more »
“I worry that, if I fully accept my power and responsibility as an older man, I might turn into one of those old bastards who sold me out and are still selling out our men, young and old, even now.” Hi Rick, I want to thank you for writing this post. I wholeheartedly agree with you. I lead men’s groups and one of the most beautiful things I have ever witnessed was a man embodying his true eldership. At one point during our group – this older man turned to one of the younger men and said, “You are so… Read more »
Hi Cristin, I’m really pleased to receive this comment from you, not only for the sake of the comment itself (which is great), but because I was not familiar with you and your work. I just spent some time browsing your website and feel very impressed and encouraged by both your story and your work with men. I’m delighted to make your acquaintance. The story you shared about the interchange between the older man and his younger counterpart in the group is wonderful. I’ve witnessed that sort of thing before myself in groups, and it’s a moment that nearly always… Read more »
I consider, that you are not right. I am assured. I can prove it.
Hi Rick, As I read this, I thought about my own tendency to close down and distance myself whenever someone responds to my writings in such a way that I feel they’re perceiving me as any kind of authority. I actually had not been so aware of the underlying, nagging fear that I could risk “becoming like one of those bastards in power” … Alongside this is the detrimental cultural bias that you mention. Far from acknowledging all the wisdom they might have attained with their years, our social construct views older men generally as having had their time in… Read more »
Thanks for your comment, Seth. Very astute observations re the detrimental cultural bias. That is certainly a factor, as both Tom and Mike have expressed in the personal experience they shared via their comments. I’ve also found myself thinking about the very negative effect someone like Jerry Sandusky has on the relationship between older and younger men. In a previous post on this site (“A View Through a Cracked Lens”), I said: “Jon (Ritchie) and others like him, who were close with Jerry Sandusky and saw him as a mentor, a hero, a role model, and a good man, are… Read more »
Maybe you should try asking the real question: Why aren’t younger men acceptin older men’s attempts to to interact with them? You frame the problem as being that older men aren’t interested, but I think it’s the younger men who don’t want us oldsters around anymore. While some younger men do care and are interested, the vibe I usually get from younger guys ranges from simple disinterest to contempt and/or disrespect. Either they think they already know everything, or else anything we might have to offer in the way of knowledge or experience is obsolete and of no use to… Read more »
Mike, first and foremost, thank you for sharing your perspective on this issue. I wouldn’t say that I framed the problem as being that older men aren’t interested, but as a combination of factors that boil down to lack of recognition of their value to younger men, lack of opportunity to connect with younger men at a deeper level, and perhaps some unfinished business in their own maturation as men that holds them back. That’s my perspective, at least in part. It may be that none of these factors apply in your case. Nevertheless, I think you make a valid… Read more »
I think it’s also true that many men my age simply have very little personal contact with younger men, outside their carefully prescribed roles in work and family, and therefore have very little opportunity to connect with them in meaningful ways. Without that experience, an older man simply has no context for understanding what is needed and what he can offer in response. I think a part of the reason that this happens is that such limited contact is not just a side effect that happens on its own but is rather a built in feature in the script of… Read more »
Lots of good points, Danny. I remember very well being in that “in between” place you describe. It felt rather awkward to me at the time. I’d already made some rather bad choices with regard to male mentors and I didn’t want to repeat my errors again, but I knew I needed something I couldn’t give myself. I was also, as you said, determined to prove myself as an independent man who could figure out his own life without depending on anyone else. In some ways I was succeeding and in some ways I was not. Mostly I was still… Read more »
I hope men here at GMP read this and write in on it. It’s clear that there is a wide range of ages who read GMP and I would like to hear from the different age groups. I guess because of my age, I would fit into the “older guy” group. So that’s the prospective I’ll come from. With age comes wisdom and I’ve personally experienced the younger generation discard that wisdom with “what do you know, you’re from a different generation” or “It’s different now, it’s not what it like when you were our age.” The older generation, in… Read more »
Tom, thank your for commenting and for encouraging others to comment. I, too, would like to see a more expansive, ongoing conversation on this topic. I hope others will join in and share their thoughts and experiences. Thanks to all who’ve already done so.
Good points….
I think it is so important for men to hang out with their elders…it takes special effort…Karate is filled with old and young guys getting together…not always easy to get the old masters together with the younger ones who need their guidance…I just contacted the great master (he is 2000 miles away!) in our style of karate…I’m hoping he will try to contact my sensei and give him some needed man-to-man words about impending fatherhood and dealing with life struggles….
JP, you sound like the kind of guy I like to hang with. Rock on, dude. 🙂
As an “older” man who has a lot of younger guy friends, I thought I might throw a word or two in here. I can’t say that I have ever been to some conference, or support group for men’s issues to meet these guys. I still like going to rock and roll shows, even if it is just some garage band at some local dive. Just as long as the PBR is cheap, and cold, and there are a few hotties shakin’ what they got. That’s where I meet and talk to them, and not surprisingly get invited to parties,… Read more »