Tim Pylypiuk wants this to be another safe haven for reasoned discussion.
In my active moments during the gender debate, I’ve witnessed another moulding of the discourse as it gets re-shaped into an inclusive, symbiotic form. The significance of this metamorphosis is immeasurable, its impact cuts across the landscape and parts tensions like the red seas.
Egalitarian spokeswomen and men for the feminist movement emerge, en masse, from their corners of the tent and are finding the courage to wield their values for both paradigms. They refuse to be drowned at by the vocal majority of their circle while responding to all concerns. They deserve kudos, especially for walking the line between women’s and men’s issues.
They brave the fires obstructing the image of their starters, push through and risk skin melting singe to reach out with a Samaritan heart to touch their injured cores. As they themselves erect their walls fuelled by similar pain.
Having been singed myself, the aftermath has got me considering something; pain can only go so far before we end up rendering the purity, the realness of our forms, unrecognizable. Even I have been telling myself, “Where is this really getting us save for tarred complexions matching our catatonic hearts.”
Then the idea came to me. Just as “Survivor’s Tales” and its haven here welcomed all whom have been wronged by women, I’ve intended to create a similar haven for those egalitarian feminists to congregate and increase their voices. They will feel validated for their empathy they’d shown for men, for true equality.
To those feminists out there, I part my firewall and have its flames encircle us so you don’t get burnt. In turn, please do the same. That way, we’ll read our natural forms, unencumbered by soot, ash, and reddened skin. Where the opportunity to self-reflect truly lies.
But this forum also has questions to ask, issues troubling the male survivor. If I were to hear more from you on them, then it’d do me good in the end as the experiences here sweep aside past negatives. So I wouldn’t feel afraid of spending time in your movement, having to look over my shoulder for those who desire to invalidate me inhabiting the same vicinity.
In return, I’ll offer you reprieve from your frustrations. This jiltedness and jadedness you succumb to on your worst days when stating your values and beliefs in opposition. You won’t need to feel it here.
If you accept my invitation, here’s my first challenge upon having read the above screed.
Please read “Bullied by Girls and Women: One Man’s Account”, “My Guilt”, and “Smoke, Mirrors, and Earthquakes: On Being A Male Survivor”, all available here and written by me. Understand where the pain comes from, its core, then offer a detailed opinion on every facet in the comments section.
Thank you. I shall soon return with more questions and issues.
Until then, enjoy the haven.
—Photo Ben Sutherland/Flickr
I also did as you requested, Eagle, and read the articles. Damn. It was heartbreaking to read about being bullied by girls and having no one believe you and/or ridicule you for “letting” yourself be bullied by them. This shit about women being “sugar and spice and every thing nice” really has to go, because girls can be just as mean and nasty as boys. Not that I believe that boys are inherently mean and nasty, mind you, but they typically get portrayed that way in media. Kids in general can be so damn cruel. I don’t want to derail… Read more »
I’ve read all your articles and again, I don’t know if the people who have dismissed you are dismissing you personally or your stories as trends. I think no one likes looking in the mirror at potential problems. If the people you talked to never were bullied or bullied, they may not relate. I’ve had things in my life that no one can relate to. In any regard, it seems clear to me that all human beings are able to cause great destruction (have the capability of causing) and have the capability to do good. It may express itself differently… Read more »
All right, let’s give this forum another try.
To all Egalatarian Feminists here, another question:
Why did those feminists dismiss and minimilise my experiences as detailed in the article? What causes such a mindset to erase someone, paint over someone, because of their being a “White Male”? How do you combat such a mindset?
Seriously, I don’t get it to this day. So please answer succinctly.
I have no idea why the feminists you spoke with dismissed you, because I don’t know them, haven’t talked to them, haven’t asked them. The answers could range from-you were as confrontational as you believed they were and the exchange was off putting to they don’t believe in what you (or others were saying).
I’ll have a follow up in a moment.
As a person who spends far too much of her working hours on this site, I will try to keep this brief and not go into the details of my opinions on the specific articles you linked to. (Not until I’m off the clock, anyway.) I just want to note the role of the Good Men Project (which I think I first discovered through a very female-oriented site, The Frisky – which I barely ever visit anymore!) in helping me identify where I fall on the spectrum of feminism. Through reading articles like the ones you’ve linked to (I think… Read more »
Very glad to hear it. The more this happens, the more people will realize the divide and quit hating the whole. Thank-you
i often think that there are a majority of “egalitarian” types out there, but many folks aren’t actively political. They might not read blogs, agitate, or think much about femnism other than equal rights and reproductive issues. It’s when a regular type person comes into contact with some kind of tipping point issue/material etc that they have to readjust mindsets. That’s not always a comfortable thing to do. I myself still hold pretty fierce opinions about things but what I’m finding is my issues are far more with things like systems and funding and lobbies (and the internal structures that… Read more »
Joanna
Thanks for letting me know you’ve read two of the three articles thus far.
When you’ve responded with your take on them, I think we’ll move things forward from here.
Guys, focus please.
Male, if you want to debate who fits the Egalitarian moniker, do it elsewhere. This haven is for discussion of specific questions between me and the Egalitarian feminists here.
Let’s stick with the first challenge.
Controlling much Tim?
Jeez.
Ok then Tim, exclude everyone baring yourself and any feminist that you label egalitarian depending on what the say in relation to your experience.
This is supposed to be a discussion haven regarding questions I have for Egalitarian feminists.
I’m not here to debate who is worthy of the egilatarian label.
No I’m not controlling either. Just trying to keep this discussion focused.
Tim
Im not sure that the distinction between gynocentric feminist and egalitarian feminist is wwll known. Most gynocentric feminists imagine themselves to be egalitarian and are unaware of how gynocentric and misandric their beliefs are.
So perhaps a little clarification is in order?
Oh, sorry Male. You were merely suggesting.
But I can assure you, Joanna and Jasmine fit the definition of Egalitarian feminists.
If anyone requests a more concerete definition, here’s what I think:
Feminists who care and empathise for both sexes and are for equality and support for both as well. That includes the concerns of men in addition to women.
There. How’s that, male? I think it’s clear enough. I hope.
I’m reading these pieces from two different places – my feminist self, and my aspiring psychologist self. So as a feminist who is also training to become a psychologist, the story of your experiences pierces my heart. The thing about any institution (the profession of psychology included) is that they are part of the broader culture, and so as a student I face the same areas of resistance as I do as a feminist in the everyday world. In this sphere I am resisting the same notions of masculinity that allow male (and female) victims to be disbelieved. I am… Read more »
Sorry, that was practically a dissertation. 😛
I think using any term that has so many different interpretations like ‘rape culture’ is kind of pointless. Technical discussions need exact definitions otherwise you spend most of the time debating semantics.
Honestly, I’d never heard the term ‘rape culture’ used in any other way, until recently. I think that the term has been perverted through lay discussion, so I don’t think that it initially had so many interpretations; this is just the nature of language. Like, for example, the term depression. It has been bastardized at the cultural level. People use it all the time to suggest that they are sad, or feeling down, but that isn’t at all what it means. So it is a technical term that is misunderstood at the cultural level. It doesn’t make it less useful… Read more »
“Honestly, I’d never heard the term ‘rape culture’ used in any other way, until recently. I think that the term has been perverted through lay discussion, so I don’t think that it initially had so many interpretations; this is just the nature of language.” yeah i read http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/01/10/deconstructing-rape-culture/ 4 years ago. Its not that i want fixed definitions in general its just when talking about technical terms its best to have established definition. I guess this comes from a science background. And if we are going to discuss feminism and its effects or assumptions that egalitarian is synonymous with feminism… Read more »
Also i think it contributes to feminists not noticing the sexist feminists around them. Instead of changing the words they use that would make them distinguishable they simply change the definitions of the words they use. They see the same texts you see but get a very different message than you get. Clear established definitions would also remove a lot of the misinterpretations of feminism that you are eager to stop.
As you say depression has many interpretations that is why there is a DSM.
I guess the biggest question I have, and I’m working a little with someone else on this, is this: What do you do when you can see that the ideological gap between yourself and another person is probably too large to bridge and come to a point where you agree? How do you handle that? The old paradigm, “Agree to disagree” seems to fall short. We feel very emotionally invested in our causes. I wish the men could see that feminism is necessary, that women are still being systematically repressed *in some ways* and that work needs to be done… Read more »
Joanna, there’s a lot of reasons in regards to the questions you pose.
These will be addressed in further questions I have for you.
In the meantime, we’ll wait and see if more egalitarians such as you and Joanna will come and take the first challenge I pose in the opening article.
Edit: I mean you and Jasmine. Sorry.
Joanna, I think the egalitarian feminists joining together with power and impact, rising to the top of the popularity amongst feminist sites is very much needed. I’d probably have a triple section place, Equalism, Feminism and Masculism so we could have crossgender discussions in the equalism area, and the more gendered stuff in each subgroup. Articles could be discussed in all 3 sections to stop derailing on one genders issues so we can stick to specific gender problems, like the male side of rape or poverty, female side, and the third article would be how poverty affects us all. That’d… Read more »
The thing that I’ve noticed recently is that it seems that the internet has a large amount of ‘feminist’ voices that are not at all representative of the feminists I know or feminism ideology as I know it. I hadn’t noticed this before because I rarely read comment sections on articles. And I think that because the internet is such a rapid way to transmit opinions, information, and ideas, that perhaps these feminists have even more defined the movement than they had prior to the internet age (although, within feminism, it seems that that extreme has always defined the movement… Read more »
Hopefully more like you popup and overthrow the current filth that dares to use the name and use it harmfully. Lookup something called the Agent Orange files of radfemhub. It’s those feminists I want to see ostracized and cast out, their actions cause so much harm by representing feminism in a bad way. Seems anyone can identify as feminist, or mra, and say the most outrageous shit and dirty the name overall in many people who may not know the good egalitarians even exist. Thank-you for helping to prove there is good in the movement, along with Joanna and others.… Read more »
Archy, Everything you write is so true. And I’d lurk the hell out of a site that gives equal weight to feminist and masculist issues as well as crossgender issues. Hell I might even comment there too. 😉 The Good Human Project is a name that was running through my head today, oddly enough. 🙂 I can’t help but wonder why people are more caught up being a good member of a certain group instead of a good member of the human species. I see that there is a lot of social pressure out there to conform, especially in the… Read more »
I have both “liked” on facebook, I think it’s amazing PFZ girl (the daughter) is learning how to build and fix things, typically male roles. I love tinkering in the shed myself but I don’t mind doing other stuff like sewing, etc. I would love to know more people who don’t follow gender roles because they have to, women that can tinker in the shed, men who can sew or whatever the typically “female” stuff is. As long as they do it because they enjoy it, high 5 to them. Hell I even talk fashion with some of my friends,… Read more »
What do you do when you can see that the ideological gap between yourself and another person is probably too large to bridge and come to a point where you agree? You say that “agree to disagree” falls short but a lot of the times that’s the best you can get out of it. I was talking to someone about Hugo Schwyzer’s recent piece on facials with someone. After almost 1 1/2 of back and forth (she called it a total crock while I said it had some validity) we literally ended the conversation with agreeing to disagree. (A strong… Read more »
First, Tim, I am incredibly honored to have been invited to this discussion! I feel very heard and validated, and I want you to know that I really admire what you’re doing here.
I iterate Joanne’s sentiment. Thank you so much for inviting discussion. Your experiences moved me to tears, and I appreciate you providing a platform in which feminists and male victims can work together. I think this is so important. The way you tell your experiences really fits in with my theories on feminism and how we, as a culture, need to work toward equality for males and females by tearing down these perceptions of males as impervious to victimhood, and the perceived impossibility of female as aggressor.
For all Egalitarian Feminists, here’s your introductory discussion:
Read the articles I linked to. Then discuss them.
Thank you.
I want this to be between me and Egalitarian Feminists like Jasmine and Joanna. Whatever your belife system is, they are at least trying to understand the other side.
And no, I don’t give a darn about what you term as Egalitarian or whether it’s sufficient a moniker or not. This is not what the haven is about.
If you’re going to debate the merits of the term “Egalitarian” or judge who fits the term, there are other threads for that. Keep out of this one if that is your intention.
I’m here to discuss things with these Egalitarian feminists.
Well lets have a look at the use of phobia shall we? Homophobia – http://www.reference.com/browse/Homophobia If it was so fixed we could all just be getting on the being gay – and usage would be unalterable! P^) -ism does not imply an absolute rule, and as with all lexicographical definitions you have both Absolute definition and also common usage. Just because something has supposed fixed latin roots does not mean it’s meaning is absolute. If that was the case Appendix would always mean an adjunct to a legal document and that vestigial organ in the Iliac fossa would be fixedly… Read more »
Rapses – you see a Safe Haven and start by being Moronic in an attempt to deprive everyone of oxygen! feminism (ˈfɛmɪˌnɪzəm) noun – a doctrine or movement that advocates equal rights for women . e·gal·i·tar·i·an -adjective – asserting, resulting from, or characterized by belief in the equality of all people, especially in political, economic, or social life. Combing the words you get Egalitarian Feminist – which is anything but an Oxymoron – a figure of speech by which a locution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect, as in “cruel kindness” or “to make haste slowly.” You are as usual… Read more »
It might be an oxymoron if feminism were defined as a marxist critique of gender roles, on the basis that a relationship between oppressor and oppressed isn’t equitable.
But I agree, its not useful to throw the egalitarian baby out with the supremacist bathwater.
Quick comment: it might be nice if the bios mentioned people’s GMP handles when they are different from the author’s name.