Where can men find non-misogynist advice for hitting on women?
As some of my readers know, I’m fascinated by the pickup artist subculture (a community devoted to advising men on how to seduce women). It’s a very mixed bag. There’s good advice in the community for genuinely kind, shy guys. But it can be so charged with misogyny and cold-heartedness that wading through it feels like panning for gold in a sewer.
There are small communities of pickup artists all over the world, and there are message boards all over the Internet, and expensive pickup coaches are always popping up. Some of these folks are not so bad; some of them are awful. Many are frighteningly cynical; many traffic in particularly dangerous stereotypes about women. And most care a lot more about what works (i.e., how to get their penis in someone) than about what’s ethical or how to treat their targets like human beings.
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“When I first found the community I was horrified by how sleazy and gross it is, but I had never had a girlfriend, and I told myself, ‘Dude, if you don’t learn this stuff you’re gonna die alone.’”
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A good friend of mine recently told me that he’s been reading the blog of a misogynist pickup artist who I absolutely loathe. I was appalled. I provided a detailed feminist critique of this guy’s blog. My friend listened and understood, but in the end he said, “I hear what you’re saying, and I agree with you. The guy is an asshole and his advice is permeated with terrible opinions of women. But a lot of it is really good advice, and I don’t know where else I can find such good advice about women.”
Here’s the thing: the current pickup artist subculture has a monopoly on effective advice for how to break down social interactions and talk to women. Not all of it works, but enough of it works that it draws guys in. As a pickup artist instructor once told me, “When I first found the community I was horrified by how sleazy and gross it is, but I had never had a girlfriend, and I told myself, ‘Dude, if you don’t learn this stuff you’re gonna die alone.’”
I’ve theorized that maybe feminists should provide good pickup advice, in an attempt to counterbalance some of the awfulness of the existing community. In the meantime, however, I figure the next best thing to do is to provide a list of less misogynistic pickup artist instructors and sites, and a few very basic critiques.
First, the basic critiques. These are very, very basic; if you get me started, I’ll provide 10,000 more. But please, if you are going to investigate pickup artistry, at least keep these things in mind.
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1) People are different. Pickup artists often say “women are all X,” “women love X,” “women all respond to X,” etc. Sometimes they are correct for the majority of women; sometimes they are correct for a minority of women; sometimes they’re wrong.
The bottom line is this: Anything pickup artists say about women is not true for all women. Period.
(Corollary: pickup artists are sometimes wrong about men, too.)
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2) Even pickup advice that works does not always work for the reasons pickup artists commonly claim it does. Here’s a nerdy scientific analogy:
If you put a large container (like a tall drinking glass) over a burning candle and trap the flame inside without fresh air, it will eventually flicker out.
In medieval times, scholars believed in the existence of a substance called phlogiston. Supposedly, phlogiston was an invisible substance produced by fire; too much phlogiston would suffocate fire. Medieval scholars believed that flames without fresh air died because they eventually produced enough phlogiston that it filled up the available space, thereby suffocating the flame.
Today, we know that this is incorrect. Flames require oxygen, and if they are trapped without fresh air, flames go out because they use up the available oxygen.
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A fair number, though not all, of pickup tactics work, but they work because women are likely to feel pressured, or guilty, or anxious. Not because women are likely to feel attracted.
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So, the phlogiston theory is wrong. But at the time, it fit reality better than previous theories about fire. It explained why fire wouldn’t burn without fresh air, for example; previous theories failed to explain that. People had observable reasons for believing in the existence of phlogiston. Nevertheless, phlogiston still did not exist.
In the same way, pickup theory makes a lot of assumptions, especially stereotypes about women. Pickup artists may have some good ideas about how to flirt, but many of them will try to convince you that those tactics work because women are dumb, childish, weak-willed, gold-diggers, inherently submissive, considerably more irrational than men, or whatever other gross stereotype you care to choose. Just because a pickup artist can show you how to flirt, that doesn’t mean the assumptions behind the advice are reasonable.
In short, don’t fall for the phlogiston trap.
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3) Some pickup advice only works because it capitalizes on the insecurities of women who have low self-esteem, and can manipulate those women—not because those women actually want to have sex.
For example: some pickup artists describe using “freeze-outs” on women who say they don’t want to have sex. Here’s what the freeze-out looks like: the woman says no, the pickup artist says “OK”—and then he turns away from her and starts checking his email or doing something else very boring that does not include her. If candles are lit, he blows out the candles. If they’re playing a card game, he packs up the cards. Basically, he goes cold and ignores her until she agrees to have sex with him.
Here’s why this is fucked up: because women are inundated with messages that men won’t like us unless we have sex with them. If a guy we really like suddenly gives us the silent treatment because we won’t have sex with him, that’s basically calculated to take advantage of insecurities. And yes, it will probably work with women who have low self-esteem, or who have never experienced a relationship with a guy who respected them. It might have worked on me when I was much younger.
But just because it would have worked does not mean I would have enjoyed it or felt OK about it later.
A fair number, though not all, of pickup tactics are just like that: they work, but they work because women are likely to feel pressured, or guilty, or anxious. Not because women are likely to feel attracted. This is another reason looking for ethical pickup artists is useful, because most of the evil tactics come from misogynists. (For example, Gunwitch, whose advice often reads like a textbook on date rape, and who once shot a girl in the face because she rejected him.) In the comments below, there is much discussion of specific tactics. Feel free to read and participate.
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… OK, so now that’s all out of the way. Here are some references:
I appreciate Hugh Ristik’s critiques and deconstructions of the pickup artist community. I don’t always agree with him, but feminism and consent both interest him, and he has a much more careful and intelligent approach to those things than any other self-described pickup artist I’ve ever encountered.
The Authentic Man Program has been recommended by a ton of people I trust. Lots of pickup jargon.
SucceedSocially.com is a site full of thoughts on basic social skills, by a guy who’s studied a lot of pickup stuff but specifically does not identify as a pickup artist. Its goal is to get readers from socially below average to average. Seems pretty much pickup jargon–free.
ApproachAnxiety.com has various advice that only occasionally trips my misogyny meter, and also usually features pictures of science fiction chicks. Seems light on pickup jargon.
Zan Perrion and David DeAngelo are often recommended as less-misogynist pickup gurus, but I haven’t looked at much of their stuff so I’m not linking to them. (There’s some criticism of DeAngelo in comments #114, #116.) But I am linking to Juggler at Charisma Arts because he wrote this advice post that made me laugh for five full minutes. Juggler, it should be noted, specifically does not identify as a pickup artist.
Over on the feminist blog Feministe, I once started a thread that drew 322 comments picking apart pickup artistry. Some of the comments are terrible, but many are interesting and perceptive.
I once got the chance to interview the famous pickup artist Neil Strauss, author of 2005 bestseller The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists, and he was pretty cool. Here’s some commentary about the interview on Feministe.
If you’re unfamiliar with pickup jargon, welcome to the encyclopedia. Understanding pickup artistry may no longer be worth it to you once you realize how many acronyms are involved.
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See more:
Why Are Men Expected to Make the First Move?
Why Do We Demonize Men Who Are Honest About Their Sexual Needs?
Lit Inspiration: Being Good in Bed Is About Attentiveness
A Good Man’s Guide to Catcalling
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This post originally appeared on Clarisse Thorn’s blog.
—Image Ben Cardy/Flickr
About Clarisse Thorn
Dave, the issue I take is not that you want to get laid. Most people want to get laid. But saying “get my dick wet” means you don’t seem to care about the woman, just her vagina. Possibly some sense of validation of masculinity you’re looking for from female acceptance…
Solely sexual encounters that are not about relationships are fine and can be totally healthy and mutually enjoyable, but how healthy can it be if there’s a significant degree of dehumanization involved?
I’m not saying the answer is necessarily to be the nice-guy friend to a woman you want to sleep with either, but being honest and seeing her as a person with sexual needs too that you can mutual fulfill might get you further. Thinking only about *your* dick does not make a woman feel sexy.
The person writing this is writing from a spiteful condensending poin of view. Of course like any subject online there are a few people claiming to have the answer when they dont-however there are a lot of far more educated people than yourself who have attended institutions you more than likely have not attended(ivey league :mit, harvard) who have conclusively demonstarted the effectiveness of their methods and the soundeness of their theories unless you are 5’10 plus, extremely fit, almost unanimously sought be honest with yourself. I even taught the Mystery Method (a book written by an MIT student who like a lot of people in our community has dated women you would DIE to look like) to an international student at my school and he himself picked up multiple attractive women.
Hi Clarisse. I’d like to share my views on the topics discussed on your article.
Women are different but many of them think similarly for they were socialized in the same society. Pick up artist sexist advices work partly for this reason. They promote the chauvinism of the dominant male, which is often accepted by both males and females oftentimes For instance, many women want the man to lead them.
I’d like that you pointed out the false assumptions on female nature; women are not weak, they are nurtured to be so.
Pick up artist advice work because they teach the individuals to approach women with confidence and other “male” attractive traits. They also teach them to, after having attracted the woman, how to take advantage of her feelings of insecurity and fear of rejection to manipulate them into having sex.
Thank you for providing other alternatives. They are not 100% misogyny free, but better than the rest. What I would advice other guys is reading the non-sexist advice from the resources you provided. That way you can learn the non-manipulative skills to attract women and approach them as so, rather than vaginas.
Thanks for the link to the full terminology page and hello to the Good Men Foundation!
The pick up arts or seduction arts changed my life. As someone who grew up pretty well in other areas of my life, I was a 23 year old virgin before I really decided to do something about it.
I think it would be too shallow to just say, “PUA is misogynistic” or “unethical”. Its an artform. A tool. Understanding human psychology and field testing methods that work. Used for good or bad is up to the artist himself (or herself). The industry is commercialized due to the amount of money guys are willing to play to get this area “handled”. As with all things, eventually the real coaches develop a true business based on talent and others come and go.
After reading the Game, Rules of the Game, the Encyclopedia of Body Language and Mystery Method and practicing some of what I learned I can’t believe some of the articles on this site were written by anyone who read ANY of these books and gave it a try.
From what I gleaned, learning PU is about re-programming the male brain (through self help exercises, repeated exposure drills, etc..) to bring out the BEST in YOURSELF while interacting with women. It’s basically self help first, social skills second, and success with women a distant third – although it’s not marketed that way obviously.
Lies, canned material, insulting women while being ‘blown out’ , negging ugly girls, being a jerk (vs being strong) and manipulation are all looked down on. PUAs don’t need to stereotype; there’s a science to attraction (Buss et al.) and the PU methods seek to exploit the science that’s all.
I have posted this exact same comment at multiple places, hoping some women actually take the challenge. So here it goes again.
All you girls giving advice, be it the author of this article, women in the comments section, or anywhere else on the internet, there is a very specific term for you in the PU community – it’s called Keyboard Jockey. In simpler words, people who just talk/post on the internet but never take any action.
If you are so confident that your advice works, take on the following challenge. Find a guy in your area/city in his 20s who has very little to zero experience with women (You will be surprised how many of them are out there, who are very normal looking). Take him from that and guide him to becoming a man who feels confident and empowered around women, and is able to find a reasonable girl who he loves, and who loves him back.
Accomplish this task in a reasonable amount of time and without him having to spend an unreasonable amount of money.
If all you girls put together (all over the internet) can achieve this transformation with 10 guys, write about it. Do not cheat and start giving PUA advice to these guys to use ‘negs’/’opinion openers’/’approach x women a day’ or whatever else you find on PUA websites/blogs. Use your own brand of ‘Be yourself’,’Just say hi’,’connect with her’,’don’t dehumanize’,’talk about things which you care about’,’care about what she thinks’,’don’t approach randomly’,’no emotional manipulation’ etc. and see what you can accomplish.
If you are able to achieve this, let me know and I promise to advertise it enough that guys will listen almost exclusively to this brand of advice and not the PUA stuff. But till then, please shut the f*** up
Oh yes. YES YES YES!!!
Women, do this. Do this HARD. Do it like a rock star.
Go out, find a socially insecure man who’s unlucky in love, and try to teach him how to be successful without using PUA material, or copying it. I DARE YOU.
When it comes to good social advice, here’s another one that’s especially targetted at geeks that I happen to consider solid gold.
Well, Actually – Miguel De Icaza ( http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html )
It’s not really PUA advice, or even strictly dating advice – but it’s a very good example of explaining a concept that some people (including me, before I read it) don’t get.
Also, while “Be Yourself” is good general advice, it’s often an over-simplification. People are complex, and can have many different sides or aspects to their identity that they might present. It also often ignores that bothering to care about others perspectives in how you interact with them isn’t a bad thing at all – and that it’s quite possible to be true to yourself and yet adjust your behaviour for the sake of others.
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Yes. Women really are different. Not all of us want sex at any given time, and no, that’s not up for debate, we can’t always be persuaded to give it up if you try hard enough. So stop trying to do that and instead work on meeting women who actually want sex.
I realise the PUA community is as diverse as any. Within their ranks are men who just want sex but are pretty respecting of women’s rights to say no and walk away, individuals whose actions and philosophies I have absolutely no problem with as a feminist. There’s nothing wrong with wanting casual sex, guys. Hey, many women also want casual sex! In this way, feminists are not your enemy – we want everyone to enjoy the freedom to consensual fun. We’re also not against men improving their confidence or becoming more socially aware. Really, that’s a good ideal. As is learning how to approach others without coming off as creepy. A decent PUA can actually succeed at charming women and getting them to willingly sleep with them and not creeping anyone out in the process. But so, so many of them are just creepy. Because they get conflicting messages from various ‘teachers’ out there, many of which are misogynistic or simply dangerous and unethical (not taking a woman who wants to go home to her house is rapey. Bugging a girl into sleeping with you is rapey. Be the guy who people WANT to sleep with, not the creepy dude who has to emotionally blackmail women to sleep with them!
The problem I have is that some PUA advocates espouse a philosophy of trying to coerce women to sleep with you. And the thing is, men, it really shows if you feel bitter or entitled about sex. And a lot of these ‘nice guys’ are. There’s this underlying expectation that a woman they’ve talked to SHOULD be providing sex, and that they’ve been let down if it didn’t materialise. We women can read those vibes, and they are off-putting as hell. Don’t whine if she won’t sleep with you, don’t send passive-aggressive texts. If she’s playing mind-games, find someone who isn’t silly, don’t act even worse. Whether it’s by insulting someone to lower their self-esteem, or lying about taking them home (and then taking them to yours), or any other way of getting rid of ‘last minute resistance’ (despicable term), I can’t condone anyone who encourages or advises coersion and rape. You don’t have to want anything than sex from a woman, but for crying out loud, find one who REALLY wants to sleep with you. There’s no such thing as ‘buyer’s remorse’ if you were upfront about what you wanted and don’t push women into sleeping with you. That’s a sign you’re not doing it right, and might in fact be very, very wrong. Criminally wrong.
For a reasonable portion of PUAs who are still very bitter about rejection, they just don’t appreciate women’s rights to choose not to sleep with them. As many mature PUAs say ‘If a chick doesn’t call back, or isn’t interested, don’t waste your time and hers, it’s a number game, there are other girls out there’. And I think this is good advice. Rejection is NOT about you. Work at your insecurities so you don’t come across as needy or entitled, and try again. As a woman I am sick of men who keep trying when you’ve been polite enough to tell them it’s just not on the cards. It’s bad practice when PUAs teach that all women are the same, that if you try hard enough, ALL women will sleep with you (and if their gurus aren’t teaching them this, then it doesn’t matter, because I’ve seen too many noob PUAs who feel this way). No matter what you are like and how amazing you are, you will never appeal to everyone. It’s really not personal. And yet too often I see these techniques used to try to zero in on a specific woman (just making her uncomfortable and pissing her off) when what the guy should be doing is just trying elsewhere.