Men are usually handed the responsibility of initiating dates or sexual encounters. Are we ready to move past these stereotypical roles?
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Being rejected sucks.
Let me tell you about my first experience with it. Like me, the object of my desire was 13 years old, and he was the hottest thing ever—a geek who loved the natural sciences. He seemed like an awesome match for an Internet-obsessed nerd girl with weird pets. Sadly, he responded to my overture by saying that I could shove one of my pets up my ass. I can laugh about this now, but it sure sucked in my teens, and gave me a complex about asking guys out that lasted through my 20s. Like just about everyone in the world, I know about the pain of rejection.
But I know how the receiving end can get, too. I grew up into a woman who—like many women—routinely manages unwanted advances from men. Some of those advances are not made with good intent, like the guys who shout gross comments at me in the street. Yet at the same time as that kind of deliberately invasive behavior is going on, there are also people of all genders trying to initiate real, mutual romantic relationships—often misstepping even when their partner is receptive, and often experiencing very sad rejections.
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Men are usually handed the social responsibility of initiating dates or sexual encounters, while women usually get the social responsibility of appearing attractive and open enough to convince a man to say something. The awesome data-crunching blog for the dating site OKCupid notes that men send nearly four times as many introductory messages as women. Dr. Debby Herbenick, a research scientist at Indiana University and author of Because It Feels Good: A Woman’s Guide to Sexual Pleasure and Satisfaction, told me, “While for male-female interactions it appears that men do much of the initiating, it’s really a certain type of initiating—maybe saying hello first or asking the woman on a date.”
In other words, women often work hard to send approachable signals first, but it’s men who are expected to express overt interest. Herbenick adds, “I think it’s more often when people step out of their gender roles—such as when women don’t just settle for nonverbal initiation but walk up to a man and ask him out—is when things get tricky in many (but fortunately not all) instances.”
In my middle-school case, I don’t think that Natural Sciences Boy rejected me because I was the one to initiate; I think he wouldn’t have been interested no matter what, because that’s the fate of 13-year-old nerd girls. But now that I’ve grown up, I’ve generally found that it’s strange and difficult to be a woman who initiates. Don’t get me wrong—I like it when guys ask me out; I really don’t ever want to be in a position where I’m taking all the sexual initiative—but I often find that I start the conversation, offer my number or ask for his, suggest dinner, suggest that we go home together, etc. And I often find that guys don’t react well.
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Part of the problem may be that straightforward women are often seen as “sluts.” In the blunt words of Derek L., cofounder of a San Francisco–based company called Social Savant that claims to help men improve their romantic lives: “I’m not surprised that women don’t make the first move. They have so much to lose. There’s judgment from their girlfriends (‘Oh my God, she’s such a slut to hit on that guy’). And she risks judgment from the guy she approaches (‘Oh my God, she approached me, must be a slut, I’ll just fuck her and dump her’).”
This forms an interesting contrast to what men experience as initiators. I’ve already written about some of the romantic and sexual double binds men deal with as part of a previous AlterNet article. One of the points I made is that usually, when men initiate, they don’t have to fear being seen as “slutty”—but they do have to worry about being seen as “creepy.”
Some men, feeling frustrated with those anxieties, claim they would just love it if women would do all the initiating! And yet those same men will sometimes act as Derek described above—labeling women who initiate as sluts—or, alternatively, simply won’t know how to react to an initiating woman.
As Hugo Schwyzer, a senior professor of gender and women’s studies at Pasadena College in California, says: “Men often say that they have no problem with an aggressive woman, until they actually meet one—and find themselves confused. What might seem flattering and relieving in theory becomes discombobulating in practice, as some men (by no means all) flounder without … a clear-cut role. Many men claim that it is burdensome to have to risk rejection by always taking the initiative—but many discover that they feel equally burdened rather than liberated by having to let go of the culturally familiar role as dominant partner.”
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I’ve found that in some ways it’s useful that many guys don’t react well to me making the first move, because a guy who can’t handle hacking our society’s gendered scripts is probably not a great partner for me anyway. But even with less traditional guys, everything seems to go better if I cede the stereotypical initiation role—if I focus more on looking cute, batting my eyelashes, not seeming too interested, and smiling really widely.
It’s confusing, and I’d love to have more access to tried-and-true social strategies for how to navigate these tricky shoals. Surely there are ways for a woman to initiate that feel less threatening or confusing for men than others; I want to learn them. I’d also love it if more men in my life had access to good tactical advice on how to initiate with me. It’s not in my interest for guys who could be a great match to feel paralyzed approaching me because they’re not sure how to avoid coming off as a creep.
My relationships are a major topic of discussion with close friends, of course. That’s where a lot of my best ideas come from. It’d be nice to have access to more, though. Supposedly, there’s a whole dating advice industry that could help me with this. But as a feminist, I’m quite aware of the flaws in that industry. For women, there are awful stereotypical treatises such as The Rules, which tell us that the less genuine we are, the better. Men are served by “pickup artists” who often give misogynistic “seduction” advice. (It’s worth noting that there are pickup artists who recognize and critique the most unpleasant attitudes within their subculture, and who seek to co-opt its best analysis for real, non-adversarial gender liberation. As one such pickup artist writes: “There are a lot of problems with the seduction community that feminists correctly observe, including misogyny, cynicism towards relationships, and a few tactics that are bad for consent.” Unfortunately, none of these guys have yet written their own pickup guide.)
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When I Googled “feminist dating advice,” not much came up to help me. The fifth hit was probably my favorite, a one-line blog post that says very simply, “Oh, for Chrissakes—just pick up the phone and call him.” Well … OK, that’s funny, and it can be decent advice, sometimes, in some circumstances. Something funnier comes from the very first hit—an article from the popular site Jezebel.com:
Step 1: Don’t be an asshole.
Step 2: Do whatever you want, as long as it doesn’t violate Step 1.
I don’t disagree. At the same time: what now? Where do I go from there?
Many feminists say that it’s “not our job” to give positive romantic advice—especially to men. But the question of how heterosexual men act romantically is extremely relevant to heterosexual women.
There are plenty of honorable men who want to approach receptive partners but have trouble figuring out how to do so. When we feminists can have a positive impact on that, then we should offer to help. And after all, it’s not like we can’t include advice on how to respect boundaries alongside, perhaps, tactical advice on how to read a woman’s signals or how to approach her in a charming way.
Personally, I’m not sure I’d be the best source of advice for feminist women who want to date mainstream guys, because I don’t tend to date mainstream guys. (It’s also unclear how many mainstream guys would want to date me. Many are thrown off by my unshaven legs and discussions of privilege.) Still, notwithstanding the fact that every man is a beautiful and unique snowflake, I could isolate a number of frequently effective Clarisse Thorn Romance Tactics. Because I don’t know whether those tactics work well for me due to other characteristics of mine, or because I tend to be attracted to guys who respond well to them, maybe one place to start could be with an open space for discussing romantic strategies that strive to be both feminist and ethical—and also enjoy a high success rate.
One of the most important things feminists can do is give people of all genders more choices in how we live our lives, and how we interact with the gendered scripts that shape us. Surely, feminist romantic advice could be a powerful tool for this.
—This is an edited version. The original first appeared on AlterNet.
—Photo Maxime Guilbot/Flickr
Why Are Men Expected to Make the First Move?
I’m sorry but I feel this is off mark. What’s completely glossed over is HOW you were being direct, and yet that is crucial. I’ve come across women who were direct but very sweet and emotionally real about it “I’m sorry if this is a bit too forward, but I think I’d be sad if I didn’t see you again and…”. Stuff like that makes the hart flutter. It doesn’t matter if it’s a bit acted even. A piss drunk girl who tells you something sleazy and grabs your crotch, fuck no! Neither men nor women like that usually but… Read more »
The fear of being seen as a slut is just a simple rationalization so you don’t have to do the approaching similar what men do they rationalize way out from approaching men usually use “he already has a boyfriend” “why she would want me” “every one is going laugh at me” all stupid rationalizations just to protect you own ego. You can’t claim to be for equality if you demand that men only do approaches.
Society is nowhere near ready for courtship to shift allowing women to initiate, BUT at the same time women need to STOP accusing men of being shallow and judging by appearance when that is all they offer us until we as men decide to break the ice. Both parties are to blame here, and I’ve got no problem talking to girls, but the type that annoy me is the eye rolling socialite who can’t believe a guy under 6’3″ would dare talk to her, when she never lifts a finger to initiate that contact herself. Fortunately I’m blessed in the… Read more »
Why only us (men) should learn to deal with rejection? You women should take risks once in a while. That’s the reason why many of us flirt with many girls at the same time. Because not all of them is going to be receptive. I also was rejected in my teens and I didn’t take it well, I was depressed and didn’t want to approach any girl. Then I read this phrase “Learn to see rejection as proof that you’re brave enough to take on risks” and I realized that’s the way how this works. If a girl approaches me… Read more »
I understand your point of view, but men won’t think you’re a slut just because you make the first move. Every men i know (me included) would prefer if women also made the first move. Sometimes it feels like a burden, we think: “why do I have to approach her?”, “what if she rejects me?”. If women decided to make the first move, it would make our lifes much easier. What you have to understand is that if you choose to do so, you will get rejected more often, just like guys. If you wait for someone to go up… Read more »
I second that. It’s 2016, the “slut ship” has sailed. in fact most of my hipster female friends are POLYAMOROUS anyway! it’s the new thing. not for me but i don’t judge. I dated a girl named Vixen i met at a funky yoga dance group, and she was definitely the aggressor- she was built like a tiny pixy and i couldn’t get the hang of it (i’m wildly attracted to Brazilians if that gives you an idea), but i couldn’t fault her she was lovely and we had a great time hanging out for a while. I never would… Read more »
“Surely there are ways for a woman to initiate that feel less threatening or confusing for men than others”
There is a simple an easy solution for this. Send more first messages to men on online dating sites. Instead of wading through the torrent of email cr*p that most women get from online dating, take the initiative and send the message to the man first. Of course there is a risk of being ‘rejected’ by not having the email responded to, but that is far more safe than making the first move IRL.
Because women who do so are seen as flirtatious whores, which is what female PUAs are. Men have to risk getting shut down while women can’t. Women are supposed to be desirable. It hurts men’s egos and masculinity when women approach even though women mistake a man’s friendliness as flirting. Women still can’t be friendly towards the opposite sex. They have to be silent, aloof, and demure. Men prefer cold ice queens over warm, friendly women.
I desagree with you. I understand your point of view, but men won’t think you’re a slut because you make the first move. Every men i know (me included) would prefer if women also made the first move. Sometimes it feels like a burden, we think: “why do I have to approach her?”, “what if she rejects me?”. If women decided to make the first move, it would make our lifes much easier. What you have to understand is that if you choose to do so, you will get rejected more often, just like guys. If you wait for someone… Read more »
dont you know every one want to be desirable including men?
women understimate this need in a men to be desirable
As a man, I can tell you are completely wrong. I hate cold ice queens. I love friendly warm women.
Did the author step out of some time portal from 20 years ago? Since when are men STILL expected to make the first move? Sorry, but this article and the question itself confounds me.
When I read something like this, I begin to wonder how much of the tone and opinion is tinged by the author’s psyche. She is clearly making an attempt to be impartial and universal in her statements, and I think she is for the most part successful and honest. Plus, in the first place, I applaud her combination of fortitude and thoughtfulness concerning the subject. However, I’m tempted to agree with Jeff’s position above when he says, “Are you really experiencing people calling you a slut because you asked them out? That seems a little bit extreme.” I could be… Read more »
What is a dangerous number of sexual partners? 1 where you use no protection and don’t get tested or 300 where you do? You’re essentially saying that a man might be worried she’s a slut/sexually promiscuous in your defence that men don’t think women who approach are sluts? Or did you mean something else? As for the sluts thing, I think the author is using it as a shorthand here for women who are just into sex (plus value judgement from the guy), meaning he thinks her initiation is a sign she’s happy to be/only worth being “f*cked and dumped”… Read more »
Maybe I wasn’t so clear. I guess I’m just trying to distinguish between a man’s concern that a woman has low moral standards (for relationship potential), and the concern that she could be, for lack of a better term, “riddled with diseases” (for sex). Because, it’s either about sex or relationship, isn’t it? I don’t think men are THAT concerned about a woman’s promiscuity for reasons of morality. I think that’s more a construct of society and religion; the “voice” calling her a slut is the voice of her own superego judging her for being so forward.
Perhaps the first step for women is to be more obvious at looking at men that interest them. Men are often described as “hard-wired” to look when they see a female they like. Why aren’t women so obvious about it too? It would make it easier for men to make the first move. Then a lot of this grief would go away without having to complain that women don’t make the first move.
Men should wear more appealing/revealing clothes, then. Women can’t noticed too much of men’s body type and fitness through loose shirts and pants, and that is the most essential part of initial attraction.
but why do women say they are not visual then or not visual as much as men? are you a woman?
Women usually have great hair. Wear revealing clothes and cool accessories. Shave their bodies. Apply make-up. And also have great physical expression and gracefulness. While most men are just plain, hairy everywhere and much less physically expressive and graceful, or emotionally charming – but they still feel entitled to women that puts MUCH more effort into their looks than them.
When men is at the same level, you could ask women to look more. In fact, you won’t even have to ask, they will be gazing into your soul.
Are you really experiencing people calling you a slut because you asked them out? That seems a little bit extreme. The whole thing with making the first move is that 70 percent of the time you’re apt to get shut down. It has nothing to do with if someone is a traditional guy or not. It has to do with them being into you. That’s the bottom line. If you want to make the first move, you gotta be okay with potentially getting rejected a lot.
Who can blame men for eschewing relatonships all together?! This is such childish bs.Oooooh,I can’t ask a man out,its too hard. BUT…they want respect and happiness and to be treated like independent beings.There is a price to be paid.
What’s wrong with some of you.
Being treated with respect has nothing to do with wanting to approach someone. I know males and females that don’t make the first move – they deserve respect, they are humans beings living with their choices, independent in a lot of ways. The price to be paid is lack of respect? Come on.
Le masculine privilegies. You don’t make the first move (or anything wlse that men want and that is not even essential for their lives) and then men will eschew relationships all because of that, while also believe that is a good excuse to disrespected women and treated them poorly as they don’t deserve happiness. Not childish bs at all, my friends lol.
You gotta respect The Game, ladies–both the book and the idea. Yes, initiation is great, but that’s only the beginning of the pick up. There are several more important steps you have to take before you can verify attraction. First, you have to not surprise/scare your new “friend” (this is why approaching straight on is a no-no. Giving a verbal time limit to your introduction is also highly effective). After you’ve casually inserting yourself into this stranger’s circle, you then have to find commonality and show that you’re a fun, attractive person. Then you being to sell your higher qualifications… Read more »
Hi Jason You say : ✺”For me, the whole point of The Game was to teach men the very thing that women ALWAYS seem to be able do when they want someone. It’s weird to read about a woman who doesn’t know this mating dance.”✺ This is an interesting statement . But do you also think women have the same contempt for men as men on PUA websites have for women? And do you actually mean women manipulate men into bed and have lots of strategies to weaken his defense and totally ignore his personal borders when he expresses his… Read more »
There’s never been a hint heavy enough for me to believe that a woman is interested in me, so most of the relationships I have had have begun with the woman taking the initiative. But (and this is why neither dating nor pick-up work for me; all my relationships began as friendships) before that initiative is taken there is a period of hint dropping from both parties where we steadily get more comfortable and heavier and more obvious with the hints. But it is actually a lot more to do with the “being thought a creep” thing you refer to… Read more »
the author is a total slut. hot chicks will never awkwardly initiate conversation with a nerd, get over it. they dont have to. and for the record, “the first move” is eye contact, and they usually do make it. Anyways, women could totally have any guy they want. it’s sadly hilarious they dont try more often, but c’est la vie. the whole gender “scripts” explains a lot of mens hostility towards women. they make beasts of us.
I do not get how you could say anything about the author’s sexual life, even less sexisticly slut-shame her about it, but maybe you have psychic abilities, I don’t know.
Women not making the first move is really TOO CRUEL and threatening to all men and their lives. I can totally see how that is one big reason for misogyny and hostility towards women, indeed.
OMG. Really true. thats why many men think they are not desirable to opposite gender. Men also need some attention. they too want to feel desirable. women are so much into thinking that only they are entitled to attention and feeling desirable men are not different. its wrong to assume men like chasing beyond sone extent. But women never make men feel desirable. This is for sure. Because I even doubt whether women find men attractive and desire them. women never compliment how nice we look. never say we are beautiful creatures but vice versa happens. instead they claim women… Read more »
Imagine a fictional situation where we’ve got two guys, Mike and Dave, who are looking for a job, with equally good resumes, interview skills, and work experience. In other words, if they each applied to the same number of jobs, they’d be equally likely to get hired. The only difference is that they’re subject to different rules. Mike is allowed to submit his resume as much as he likes wherever he likes. Dave, on the other hand, is required to sit around and hope than an employer approaches him. Although Dave has a degree in electrical engineering, he keeps getting… Read more »
@Jen, while I agree that traditional roles suck big time (and I’m all against them), your analogy doesn’t hold water at all. The man-woman relationship exists on a peer basis (or it should be); an employer-employee relationship is top-bottom (or even master-servant if you will). Comparing them is like comparing a hammer and a feather. And, of course Mike has more chances, but what’s holding Dave from approaching employers? Rejection from moronic ones? 😉 My point is this: if you see a interesting and smart guy (and you think you’re potentially interesting to him), he will be delighted to get… Read more »
99 out of a 100 men I know to encourage women to make moves. Any conversation on this subject will have the men talking about how much they would love or like for women to make moves, and the women defending the status quo.
Even in feminist spaces with hardcore (let’s abolish all gender roles) mantras, the majority of the women defend the status quo. So this ridiculous notion that women are lazy because men don’t’ encourage them is fallacious to the core.
We have an entire society of men BEGGING for women to start doing stuff…
Encourage every woman I know to feel more comfortable in approacheing men? One problem.
Because of the “rules” of our game and the rejections, i do not know ANY. Nice try though!
Truly intriguing are women who always complain about not meeting the right guys , but who steadfastly refuse to ever approach a guy because ‘he should be the one to find her.’
I respect their fortitude but it is going to have them old and alone.
I actually have know several women like this for about 10-15 years and they still have the same complaints and issues.
@Mack10.: “I respect their fortitude”
I would call it “cowardice” instead. 🙄
Hiding behind traditional gender roles, it’s an easy way out to avoid the risk of rejection.
Those chicks are chicken. 😉
“whether you are driving a car, a truck, or a boat, you have to be sitting on the side with the pedals and the wheel” ~ my dad
You are absolutely right that it is necessary to be active in one’s pursuit of relationship happiness. The importance of proactive involvement in one’s lifetime of success and achievements can not be emphasized enough.
Wow, what a way to generalize. Wow, so not true. Wow, you are unbelievable in your statements! Seems like you want women to do everything by your little “woman” book. Now if you are wanting women to change their gender practices to accomodate you, you have got to be willing to change some of your male gender rules . ( refusing to approach a guy will leave a woman old and alone)—>> harsh, evil, mean Which women do you speak of? For certainly, not any of my people, because, all of my wonderful, smart, good looking, female relatives and friends… Read more »
And I often find that guys don’t react well. I often find that women don’t react well to being approached, especially if they don’t find the guy attractive. How much of an overlap is there between girls who are desperate enough to approach men? And how much of the negative reaction is due to women being more likely to ask out the very kind of guys whom they would like to be asked out by – the dominant males who react badly to anyone who might try to take charge of anything from under their nose? And what if it’s… Read more »
*pick and choose! ha ha “coose” — that sounds obscene. Freudian slip?
I think many guys have a fantasy of being hit on or asked out by attractive women. Unfortunately , those are the women with the least need to take initiative because they are already swamped by attention. They can simply wait and then pick and coose. Women who get less attention from men — older women, less attractive women, overweight women, etc. — might be the ones who theoretically need to ask men out more often (because they aren’t being asked out) but those aren’t the women that men are thinking about when they complain that women don’t initiate. I… Read more »
“Women who get less attention from men — older women, less attractive women, overweight women, etc. — might be the ones who theoretically need to ask men out more often (because they aren’t being asked out) but those aren’t the women that men are thinking about when they complain that women don’t initiate.” This, right here, is a big reason why so many women don’t make the first move, I think. You don’t want to be seen as desperate…if a woman is making the first move, then she’s probably worried the guy will think she’s less able to find someone…precisely… Read more »
@HeatherN: “if a woman is making the first move, then she’s probably worried…” It depends on the culture of the place, on the context. – If the culture is relaxed, everybody feels free to make the first move… because it doesn’t mean anything special (everybody can and does it). – If the culture is rigid, with rigid roles (men do it, women don’t), then a woman making the first move is “out of the ordinary”, so she can be afraid of appearing desperate (“WHY she’s doing what other women don’t???”). So, it’s not about what you do, but on the… Read more »
@HeatherN: Did you ever consider that men are tired of being thought of as “desperate”, too? And don’t say the asking position only confers “desperate” status onto women, because we all know that street runs both ways.
@Sarah Radford: “those aren’t the women that men are thinking about when they complain that women don’t initiate” Sarah, you’re thinking in black&white terms here: while it’s easier for the mind, it doesn’t help in grasping actual reality. We men don’t see women just in two categories: beautiful OR ugly (ok, some morons do, but I don’t mind the bollocks 😉 ). It’s a continuum. Thus, while I agree a goddess-like woman doesn’t need to take initiative, an average woman could make the first move with a man she likes: this would be a much more common situation than your… Read more »
Clarisse: A small correction for your article.
Hugo is not a senior professor
http://www.pasadena.edu/directory/employee-results.cfm?Name=777543590241347E226758000C5A4224043770164D5708780700402D7647400F
Right from the faculty website. He is an instructor , there is a big difference.
I can only assume you quoted him as “A senior professor” to EXPAND the importance of this quote but please give us more credit than that.
Why hasn’t she mentioned something like-“Well in nature, male birds initiate”
Well, then that might suggest biological differences between men and women and then you’d get that whole eve psych scene that some like AM love to dismiss as misogynistic because it doesn’t fit their dogma which is not scientifically tested…….
This is pretty flimsy….
why don’t you just come out and admit that you don’t like the sting of rejection instead of putting statements by Hugo S there. He doesn’t speak for all men-we ARE NOT one monolithic group, in fact I find him incredibly misandrist.
“Don’t get me wrong—I like it when guys ask me out; I really don’t ever want to be in a position where I’m taking all the sexual initiative—but I often find that I start the conversation, offer my number or ask for his, suggest dinner, suggest that we go home together, etc. And I often find that guys don’t react well.”
Maybe you are just aiming out of your league or maybe you are really a “Nice Girl TM” or all the other boggoted things Feminists LOVE to scream at men with poor social skills….
hehe, bigoted, not boggoted….
I know a number of 1 is statistically meaningless, but I’m really glad when I’m asked out. It’s just flattering. 🙂 Of course my reaction depends, but in the worst case I’d appreciate her attempt and treat her in the best possible way; I would feel her pain and try to soothe it. Even if I don’t like her at first, I would be available to know her better, if she’s inclined so (you can’t really know someone just on the spot). Everyone deserves a chance. Regarding the roles, I’m all for equality: so why on Earth someone should go… Read more »
(1) Making the first move is hard, unpleasant, soul destroying work. (2) women have all the power therefore, (3) they make men do it I can laugh about this now, but it sure sucked in my teens, and gave me a complex about asking guys out that lasted through my 20s Now imagine you didn’t have the power to force the other person to do that work. Imagine you were the one forced to do it. Not very nice prospect eh? So why can’t women and feminist recognise this obvious privilge women have? I know how the receiving end can… Read more »
I’ve nearly always initiated. (cue the “but you are a beta” comments)
I have no issue with asking a person out. I think its ridiculous that we’ve got that particular gender division going at all. You want something? Ask.
Well then you’re just awesome!
I try to be (and I’m a feminist too, shhhhh don’t tell anyone) 🙂
If you really believe in equality and are willing to take the same dangers you’d expect a man take-I can respect that very much. What I can’t respect is this new chivalry where women get all the benefits and men still have all the risks that Hugo S, AM and this author seem to perpetuate…..
Great post! Not sure that I understand the history or the sociology, but I have NEVER seen the “reward” of having to approach women first. I hear women say that they MUST know that I am interested before
they do anything. That does not seem fair.