When you believe that we live in a female-dominated world where straight men are the most oppressed class, it tends to make you wrong about pretty much everything.
Men’s rights activists—a loose coalition mostly comprised of men embittered that they’re not getting as much tail as they believe they’re due and men embittered after having their wives up and leave against their wishes—irritate feminist bloggers for many reasons, from blaming feminists for problems they clearly brought on themselves, to the Russian bride weirdness, to their dogged trolling and grudge-holding of feminists that criticize them.
But, honestly, all that pales in comparison to the most irritating thing of all about MRAs: they’re just so wrong.
When you believe that we live in a female-dominated world where straight men are the most oppressed class, it tends to make you wrong about pretty much everything. Wrong about the little things, like labeling every woman who displeases them a “feminist,” even if she does something highly traditional, like demands that men pay for every date. And wrong about big things, like writing off high rates of domestic violence and rape as matters of women lying, when all reputable sources agree that there’s simply a lot of violence against women.
They’re so wrong about everything, they’re wrong even when they’re right. Some of their observations of the world correspond with reality, but when they attempt to analyze it through the “blame feminism” lens, they get all turned around. Usually what annoys them stems not from feminism, but from sexism, especially when it comes to inflexible gender roles. Ironically, then, the solution to the problems they manage to correctly identify is … more feminism. I pulled together a sampling of examples to show how this works.
♦◊♦
Problem: Men are more often the primary or even sole breadwinners of nuclear-family households.
MRA explanation: A matriarchy of spoiled women have managed to get men to pay for it while they sit around on their butts eating bon bons all day, while the children scamper angelically past them, requiring little to no work.
Reality-based explanation: Women still make less than men in the workplace, but still do more free labor at home, even when they work full time. Plus, many men feel scaling back or quitting their jobs is emasculating. So, when someone in a couple decides to scale back or quit a job to maintain the household, it’s usually the wife. But, for many families, women just simply do more for less pay. Being at home is no picnic for women, since it reduces future earning potential. Plus, being around kids all day can be a little maddening.
MRA solution: Women en masse should demonstrate our gratitude for this financial support of some of us by giving up on fighting for equality, especially equal pay. Also, no more child support.
Reality-based solution: More feminism. Women should get paid the same as men, men should do as much housework as women, and men should treat domestic labor as real work, instead of as emasculating. Workplaces should be more flexible for parents of both genders. If that happened, more women would work outside the home, and more men would cut back work hours for family.
♦◊♦
Problem: Men have to do all the work asking women out, and women are often hostile to men’s overtures, which hurts men’s feelings.
MRA explanation: Women are lazy princesses, who enjoy forcing men to dance for the pussy, and then enjoy shutting them down, because it strokes petty female egos.
Reality-based explanation: These are two separate issues. Women reject men forcefully because 1) a lot of overtures are actually just harassment, and 2) even men who are sincerely hitting on you sometimes are really rude and entitled about it, requiring a forceful response. (Plus, some MRAs experience all rejections as women being too big for their britches, making it impossible for a woman to say no without being labeled a bitch.) Women don’t approach men very often, because doing so often gets you labeled slutty, bitchy, or desperate, or sometimes all three.
MRA solution: Pay a lot of money to creepy men who label themselves “pickup artists” and who promise to teach you how to get any woman you want in bed. The method usually involves taking an abusive posture to women, and learning to identify insecure women, extracting sex from them through bullying. You know, instead of doing something as quaint as sleeping with women who actually want to have sex with you.
Reality-based solution: More feminism. A world where rape victims weren’t denounced because they were overly flirty, where women weren’t mocked because they acted “like men,” and where the word “slut” had no meaning is one where women would feel freer to hit on men. Plus, a world where women weren’t harassed on the street, or where they could tell men “no” and be heard the first time, would be one where women weren’t immediately suspicious of every man who approached them.
The whole men make more money than women is not true. How did get that number? All the wages were added up and the median number was used. Factors like hours worked, profession. Also if women have children they would take time off work so course they would make less. Women do work around the house? The only women I know do work around the house is my step mother and aunts. Not that too many women in my generation does a lot of free work around the house. My best friend worked, cooked, cleaned, fix the car, lawn care,… Read more »
The problem with the “women do more housework” claim is it roots its specificity to an erroneous purpose. Pertaining to work done in the home, it is true, however, it’s extremely misleading because men do the majority of outside work and garage work. When you leave out gardening, raking leaves, taking garbage out, mowing lawns, trimming hedges, cleaning gutters, water blasting the house, cleaning the BBQ, fixing, repairing and maintaining broken household equipment, changing lightbulbs, heavy lifting,home improvement (which accounts for hundreds of undertaken hours) and car maintenance. These things certainly balance out the equation, but then you’d have to… Read more »
For the last 40 years, men have been told by Feminists that we are all potential rapists, pedophiles and wife beaters, so the “solution” is more of the same? Then you have White Knights and “Uncle Tims” like Dr Phil who reinforce this message to gain favor with women. Two books I would recommend are The Manipulated Man by Esther Vilar and Men On Strike by Helen Smith.
Do you really think a female President would not send kids off to war, or a female CEO would not lay off workers or outsource jobs for more profits? If you really accept that men and women are equal then you accept that women are just as capable of bad behavior. The “patriarchy” is actually a very small group of politicians, CEOs and lawyers, and now women are part of the same system. When you add up heart attacks, work related accidents, suicides and wars, men have always been considered expendable. Your only measure of worth is what you can… Read more »
Personally I would like to see some substance supporting the claim that [women] still do more free labor at home, even when they work full time.
Becuase this is a recurring theme in feminist arguments in Sweden as well, despite the fact that it has been repeatedly debunked in nationwide surveys for at least 30 years.
The last one was conducted in 2010/2011, and corrected for age and life/family situation it concluded the “There is no significant difference between men and women in the total working time “.
Good luck with that considering that in the few studies that support the claim start off by dismissing the free labor that men do at home.
“When you believe that we live in a female-dominated world where straight men are the most oppressed class, it tends to make you wrong about pretty much everything.” Well, when literally the first sentence of your article contains a blatant misrepresentation of your opponent’s position, that doesn’t bode well for you. If the root of all your arguments is a fallacy, I guess that makes you wrong about pretty much everything, eh? For starters, gay men are just as much a part of the MRM as straights. Why add that? And as a man, I don’t think my group is… Read more »
It’s always hilarious to see a feminist/MRA bash an MRA/Feminist because feminism and the MRM are two (gender) sides of the same coin. I’ve seen overwhelming numbers of brain dead bigots on both sides but when they post articles like this they show their true colors. To the true good and decent feminists and Mens rights activists: I support you. To the idiots going on about privilege while sitting in their western ivory tower and telling ghost stories about some creature called a “Patriarchy” or throwing out poorly researched statistics: Grow the hell up and understand that true oppression knows… Read more »
Umm… okay, where do I start? I would like to say that I am both a feminist, and an MRA (see what I did there) and as a man, I’ve seen firsthand victims of misogyny and misandry, as well as having experienced misandry for myself. But I want to tell you that both men AND women have gender specific issues. I can also tell you that REAL women and men care about those issues for both sexes. There are more, a lot more, nice men and women out there than mean, it’s just that the jerks are so loud, that… Read more »
This is a strawman article. Bar the point about workplace deaths (where Marcotte misses the proposed MRA solution plus proposes athoroughly unrealistic feminist solution), ever alleged MRA gripe she addresses ia an invention. Hey, Amanda, why not address a few real MRA issues? 1.) Violence in society and the perpetuation of violence in society. Domestic violence in western societies is a huge problem. The violence that exists in virtually every western family will almost invariably transfer from the privacy of an abusive home and result in random violence in the streets and in war. Most violence in the home is… Read more »
You’re getting excited about things that aren’t as big as you think they are. False rape accusations are terrible, and I believe the woman should be forced to go to jail for the same number of years as the man was supposed to serve, and be civilly responsible to the man (sued).
That said, my nephew almost became the father of a girl’s child when she lied and said it was his. DNA proved it was not, he made her leave his house.
“2.) Paternity fraud
Everyone knows women are promiscuous and illoyal.”
I was actually with you up until this outrageously sexist and hyperbolic claim. This is as insane and ill-thought a concept as “all men are rapists”. Thanks for letting me know your bias against women is so high that you are incapable of thinking rationally on this subject. I can now stop wasting my time reading your comment.
I disagree with this post almost completely. I currently identify as an MRA because feminism minimizes or ignores abuses against men if they are not out and out supporting them. I don’t agree that these are the main issues or even representative among MRAs, but I’ll address them. Men are the primary bread winners in nuclear families. A family that can survive on one income has a high earner. Look up two things in psychology. the relation between money and time, how money is more important than time until you reach a certain income level then it shifts. A person… Read more »
Related.. Trackback…
[…]the time to read or visit the content or sites we have linked to below the[…]…
Mens Rights types can be idiotic and lacking an ounce of empathy, but this writing is equally so. > “Men’s rights activists—a loose coalition mostly comprised of men embittered that they’re not getting as much tail as they believe they’re due and men embittered after having their wives up and leave against their wishes” Wow, that’s going to be a tough strawman to destroy. Maybe you could equate pick up artists with rapists to do it? Seriously, stop being so hateful for a minute, and actually listen to their arguments and actually address their arguments when you write. Perhaps you… Read more »
Dumb article. Whoever wrote should be executed at a second’s notice. No explanation needed.
I mean, all Fems should be executed. Enough talk, heard enough.
Congratulations. You and your misogyny are the reason people mock the notion of MRAs.
and yet you managed to trump his shallow callousness by lumping all mras in with him. Hypocrisy much?
DITTO!!
CheckMatt, this is one of those things you should have thought quietly to yourself but never put into words. You need to stop posting ridiculous observations anywhere, but especially in a place where adults are trying to have a useful discussion.
Wow Good Men project, really good way to mobilise thoughtful discussion amongst men about gender issues, inviting the like of Amanda Marcotte and Hugo Schwyer to write articles for you site. For heavens sake, I think you might be a litle out of touch with your constituency.
Amanda, the irony is that when a feminist writes a dissembling hit piece on men’s issues, it demonstrates that “more feminism” is not the answer. Men’s activists are just at the early stage where men from all walks of life are struggling to put a finger on something that just doesn’t feel right. Modern feminism began with “a strange stirring, a sense of dissatisfaction, a yearning.” And that is what you choose to mock now. But that yearning is why men are starting to organize and want to do things such as establish male studies programs, so that over time,… Read more »
#nailedit
Marcotte: I find that your article engages in name-calling (“weirdness” “trolling”) and loosely supported judgements (flatly stating that these men are wrong).
Is this intended to be an opinion column? Or simply venting frustration? I ask, because I work to support equal rights between the sexes, and your article doesn’t help me.
What I need from the feminism and gender equality front is information on what inequalities have been identified, and how they’re being addressed. Success stories from both men and women on achieving equality are also very helpful.
Thanks.
Before I conclude that TGMP is now removing questions and comments that raise uncomfortable subjects, let me say this (again) since TGMP has decided to repost this, alone, of all the MRM pieces:
Amanda, perhaps you could explain to us all how Reginald Daye was helped by feminism. Especially as you personally contributed so much to the feminist assistance afforded the late Mr. Daye.
I think it’s funny that MRAs complain about “echo chambers,” and then flood a comment section and vote to hide all opposing viewpoints. A lot of which contain actual bonafide ad hominum arguments. I come in looking for an interesting discussion, I get a bunch of asswipes offering rebuttals that would make a creationist blush.
Projectiooooooon
I think it’s funny that MRAs complain about “echo chambers,” and then flood a comment section and vote to hide all opposing viewpoints.
If you find it so funny then wouldn’t the comment you made have been downvoted too? As we can see its not…
I think both the feminist and mens’ rights movements have the same problem – those who are the loudest, angriest and craziest get a disproportionate amount of attention. There are people in both groups saying stupid things (such as thinking ladies’ night is a feminist conspiracy) and then there are people in both groups who can’t stop themselves from pouncing on those stupid ideas, when really we should be ignoring the idiocy, and working together to really look at the facts, find inequalities and injustice, and work to make our society better for everyone and every gender.
+100
As my Dad always said, “the idiots have the loudest voices”.
Same old red-neck ranting misandry from Marcotte. Excuse the alliteration, but she has become very predictable – the Jerry Falwell of the intransigent left. Presumably, more feminism in the divorce courts would mean men would have no inconvenient contact with their children at any time. We are, after all, potential rapists and child abusers just waiting for a chance to pounce. The disastrous consequences for children can always be explained away by Capitalism, perhaps. Marcotte’s instinctive antipathy towards men hasn’t moved the debate on an inch since the Society for Cutting Up Men. In any other context we would recognize… Read more »
Not all feminists are lesbians, so not all feminists hate men but feminism is anti-male, so feminists end up being attracted to men but still end up with anti-male viewpoints and outlooks.
I disagree. I am feminist and pro-male.
“Not all feminists are lesbians, so not all feminists hate men” Chris, it seems as if you’re implying that lesbians hate men. “but feminism is anti-male,” Typical believer of conspiracy theories. Believe it or not, feminists are not out to get you or the male sex. And if feminism is anti-male, does that make the men’s rights movement anti-female? Because judging by the MRA community, there sure seems to be a hell of a lot of misogyny. “so feminists end up being attracted to men but still end up with anti-male viewpoints and outlooks.” Uh, no. Maybe you should experience… Read more »
I look at what feminism has actually done. Feminism has created a situation where women can walk away from a marriage for no reason and still take everything, including 90 percent of their husbands’ earnings. Feminism has created a condition where colleges expel male students based on nothing but a false accusation of rape. Feminism has created a situation where a woman can attack her husband with a knife and the HUSBAND goes to jail. The actions of feminism do not correspond to what it says it is about. Feminism’s actions show a strong anti-male bias. As for MRAs, they… Read more »
“Typical believer of conspiracy theories. ”
It’s terrible to believe in those, I mean otherwise you’d believe something like some shadowy group of men had been controlling the world forever for the sole purpose of keeping women down…
Some assertions are fact.
Like George Sodini… he was in the PUA and MRA internet communities.
He hated women because they weren’t giving up the tail.
He shot up a fitness center.
Granted, he is an extreme example… but where did he go to seethe and bathe in woman-hatred? Yep. The internets. Main sites he went to were PUA/MRA sites.
“Granted, he is an extreme example… but where did he go to seethe and bathe in woman-hatred? Yep. The internets. Main sites he went to were PUA/MRA sites.”
Sources, please.
Looks like I got a comment eaten. I’ll have to try & type it again tomorrow.
B) Breaking gender roles The primary battle-cry of feminists in pushing no-fault divorce was that women should be able to leave stagnant loveless marriages (of course they could do that under the old system, but boredom wasn’t a contract breaker, so mothers COULD divorce under the old system–but if the father had not broken his end of the deal by adultery, abuse, addiction, abandonment then he would win the lions share of assets, house, custody). Of course without the contractual severance clauses to divorce, custody had to be decided a new way. In came the tender years doctrine, and “best… Read more »
That 2nd to last sentence should say: “MAGNIFYING of gender roles for men.
Once again the solution is, of course, more feminism. If women got equal pay in the workplace and had less societal pressure to be homemakers, and if neither party were hedged into ill-planned marriages in the first place by social obligations to suppress their sexuality for the sake of conformity, there would be little to no reason for Alimony. In a truly equal scenario, things like child support and alimony would be gender-blind. They would be based around creating a transitional period to individual life such that a non-breadwinning partner would not be forced to remain in a relationship for… Read more »
(I apparently like to say the phrase ‘of course’ after I’ve had a few scotches.)
Women do get equal pay in the workplace. Companies don’t care about workers. They just want X amount of work done for the cheapest possible cost. But society believes (and feminism agrees) that men should pay for everything. This gives women the luxury of not having to put in as many hours. That is, they have the privilege of working less but having their needs taken care of. No-fault divorce meant that only the man is committed in a marriage. She can walk for no reason at all and take the house, the car, the kids, and 90 percent of… Read more »
Ignoring Amanda Marcotte’s stupid strawmen arguments that have nothing to do with the MRA stance, following are some off-the-cuff views on why feminism is NOT the solution to MRA problems. A) The onus of parenthood. Do women get “knocked up” by evil men or are they 50% the guilty party? In other words are women EQUAL or just equal when feminists want them to be? I saw a post up earlier in which a person (assuming it’s a woman) states: If you don’t want an unwanted child, then don’t have unprotected sex–it’s that easy. I’m 44. I lived in a… Read more »
True. Its funny to see people scream bloody murder over remarks like, “She should have kept it out of her pants!” and follow up with remarks like, “He should have kept it in his pants!”
With equality comes responsibility and feminism has not prepared women for the responsibilities that come with equality. And women are pissed off about it.
I’m a little late to the party, but I thought some might enjoy this link: http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2010/04/09/sexist-beatdown-manly-masculine-male-edition/ This is a feminist article (supposedly) bashing the new emerging Male Studies. If you peruse the comments starting at about 118 or so they get very interesting very quickly. Most MRA’s will not be surprised. The two main peeps worth following are Left Side Positive ( I actually think the name is clever, but that’s where my admiration of this person ends) and Arbitrary. In the comments LSP consistently denies that men are oppressed in any way. Then when the net of proof and… Read more »
From the article John D. cited:
SADY: You could run over my foot with a shopping cart at the Costco, and I’d write this very ideological post that was like, “SHOPPING CART PRIVILEGE: Does It Lead You To Run Over My Foot, and Are You A Monster? Yes.”
To feminists men are the shopping carts of the world and that has to stop for there to be gender harmony again.
See, the problem is that we’re talking about Men’s rights and Women’s rights like they’re separate things. Any prejudice against any gender degrades us all, so it is entirely impossible to win this fight in any tangible form if we continue to bicker amongst ourselves like this is some kind of sociological messy divorce.
Yeah, they aren’t. If you’re a decent human being, both sides shouldn’t be seperate things.
However, it seems like 90% of society believes that one is more important than the other. Can you guess which one?
I’d love for this fight to be over. Unfortunatly, there will be no end in sight so long as the mentatlity that “Women’s Rights” count more than “Men’s Rights” continues to propagate amongst the masses.
Well said! I believe in equality, but that seems to be the hardest concept of all to represent.
I completely agree. Our aim should be to provide equality of opportunity; the most talented people should therefore end up with the best jobs. Technically, “feminism” refers to equality (not ‘more rights for women that for men’) and therefore a ‘man-hating’ feminist is an oxymoron…just an interesting thought for the day. I’m not denying that misandry exists, and it is utterly contemptible, but one is not guilty of it simply by virtue of being a “feminist”.
Agreed. Now can MRAs get the same consideration in return and quit all this bullshit where one is presumed guilty of hating women by virtue of being an MRA?
This article is just more of Marcotte’s intentional bad faith in talking to and about MRAs.