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Being attractive is more complicated than straight teeth and nice pecs. Harris O’Malley shows us how.
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Attractiveness is a tricky beast. It’s tempting to assume that attractiveness is summed up by your looks; throw together some perfect abs, teeth like chicklets, rock-hard pecs, a swimmer’s body and a symmetrical face and you’re good to go.
But being attractive is far more complicated than that. Physical good looks can certainly help (and the definition of “good looks” can vary pretty damn significantly) but attraction isn’t purely about your bone structure and diet. Attractiveness is a holistic attribute, something that encompasses your entire being… and it’s almost shockingly easy to change. The problem is that many men are accidentally sabotaging their own appeal. Just as there are subtle things that can make you more attractive, there are ways that you can actually make yourself less attractive. Let’s talk about some of the most common ways otherwise attractive people shoot themselves in the foot.
5) You’re Passive
One of the worst things you can do when it comes to attraction is… nothing.
Hold on, allow me to explain.
One of the oldest tropes — quite possibly the oldest — is loving somebody from afar, yet never actually doing anything about it. Oh sure, there’re REASONS why you can’t possibly confess your feelings… but the fact remains that you’re sitting there doing absolutely nothing and wondering why your beloved never notices you.
Look, I get it. You’re afraid of rejection, and for a lot of guys, it’s easier to live in the permanent fantasy of hope than to collapse the quantum state and get a definitive answer. But the fact of the matter is… it’s kind of pathetic. It’s an excuse to keep hope alive and not have to do anything; after all, why chase anyone else when you have your One True Love to think about?
But cold hard truth time: nobody likes the guy who does nothing. They’re the one sitting there continually complaining about something without ever actually taking steps to resolve the issue. The longer you let it sit, the sadder it gets and – worse – the larger it looms in your mind.
If you’re interested in someone and want that relationship to actually happen, you have to actually make your move. Wining about how sad it is that it never happened when you never did a damn thing is not only going to turn off your crush but the other, incredibly awesome people around you who might otherwise have been interested in you.
Now in fairness: there’re many men who aren’t naturally aggressive or who don’t fit into the traditional gender role of “man-as-aggressor” in relationships. And that’s fine… but there’s a difference between being the receptive partner and the guy who’s sat around with the same love note he wrote four years ago and never got around to sending1. As many, many women can tell you, making yourself approachable takes effort.
4) You Smell
You wouldn’t think this needs to be said… but… a lot of dudes need to be acquainted with some basic facts around hygiene. Anyone who’s ever been to a comic or gaming convention is very, very intimately familiar with the concept of “con funk”.
Scent is an incredibly powerful sense; it’s intimately tied to memory and emotional response — even genetic compatibility (maybe). But it also can play a massive role in whether or not people are going to want to take a roll in the hay with you. We associate smell with health, fitness and even social intelligence; after all, if you don’t recognize that rolling into the library reeking of boiled cabbage and ass is going to bother people, then you’re probably not going to be good relationship material.
But this goes beyond simple matters of remembering to shower and throw on some Speed Stick. See, some folks go in the opposite direction. Just as a guy who smells like he’s smuggling gefilte fish in his arm pits is going to get shot down, so too does the guy who smells like he’s showered in Axe.
Just as people at cons know about clouds of geek body odor, people who’ve spent time in bars and clubs are familiar with the guys who roll in wearing eye-watering levels of cologne. It doesn’t matter whether it’s a 20 year old bottle of Drakkar Noir or a $200 bottle of Yves St. Laurent, it takes very little to go beyond a pleasant scent to a walking chemical warhead.
And then there’s your breath…
3) You Play Games
There’s a saying I’ve seen come up frequently when it comes to dating: “the person who cares the least, has the power.” The idea is that the person who is more invested in the other controls the relationship and thus sets the terms of how the relationship will progress. This is especially popular in the pick-up artist scene: you want to be the one in control of the relationship because otherwise women will just make you dance to their tune and you don’t want that. Thus, you get the idea of “negging” – left-handed compliments to demonstrate your social superiority and the fact that you don’t crave the other person’s approval and that they should crave yours. Thus you get the various status games about playing “hard to get” and the completely inane rules surrounding when to call or text, lest you show too much interest, etc.
The problem with this idea is that it’s all based on relationships as a power struggle rather than, y’know, trying to actually connect with somebody. Playing these power games tells people that you’re not looking for a partner – whether it’s for life or for the evening – but somebody to control. And let’s be real here: that’s not a good look on you.
Playing power games says a lot about the person doing them; whether it’s a Red-Piller or someone who’s bought into The Rules, it’s a sign that people have little regard for the person they’re supposedly interested in and more for simply getting what they want out of them. The more you’re focused on trying to rule Barter Town, the less you’re dealing with the other person as a person. It’s a sign of disrespect at best, and people have better things to do than reach out to someone who’s treating them with veiled (or not-so-veiled) contempt. And that’s going to kill whatever shred of attraction they may have had for you.
2) You’re Trying to Look Like Anyone Other Than Yourself
OK Cupid is more than just a dating site; it’s also a sociologist’s wet dream of data. Among the many trends that crop up in the data was this little fact: the more divisive you are looks-wise, the better you do in the long run when it comes to attraction.
Now there’re a number of factors involved – including game theory (the math kind, not the PUA kind) – but one of the biggest take-aways is that someone who’s more polarizing tends to provoke greater levels of response in others. The people who aren’t into him or her are really not into them… but the people who are into them are really, really into them.
It’s a little counter-intuitive at first; you would think that being more broadly attractive would benefit you overall. However, being broadly appealing tends to mean that there’s not a lot of depth to that appeal; it’s the difference between someone seeing you as “wouldn’t kick them out of bed” level of attractive vs. “NO TIME TO TALK, GET YOUR CLOTHES OFF”.
To give an example, let’s take a look at Matt Smith.
He’s not a classic leading man in any sense of the word. His eyes are close-set and beady, his forehead and chin are huge, he’s tall and lanky… but there is a very significant and vocal population out there who think he’s sex on a stick. If he tried to downplay the features that make him distinctive, he might make himself more generically like others. But by being willing to be polarizing and own his look, he’s made things work.
Remember: you’re looking for a relationship (or two or three or…), not trying to win a popularity contest. Five people who love your look is going to be better for you than 20 who think you’re decent enough.
1) You’ve Got A Lousy Attitude
This is the big one. One of the things you may hear about frequently is “the halo effect”. Put simply, the halo effect is a cognitive bias that affects how we see and feel about others. Positive feelings about someone make us see their traits in a more positive light, while negative feelings about them make us see them as worse than they are.
Now, most of the time when we talk about the halo effect, it’s in the context of somebody’s physical appearance. For example, it’s fairly well documented that people who are conventionally good-looking are seen as being happier, smarter and all around better people. Exploiting the halo effect is part of what makes “bad boys” seem more appealing; they put more effort into their presentation and their looks; as a result, we get conned into thinking that they’re better people than they actually are.
However the halo effect doesn’t just come into play when it comes to looks. In fact, your attitude will change how people see you… and that change can be a lot harder to shift than looks. In fact, the effect looks have on attraction fade over time while personality actually can make someone more attractive over time. The more you get to know somebody, the more you tend to see them as attractive.
Unless you fuck it up by having a lousy attitude. Then you’re convincing people that no, you’re not attractive after all. When you meet someone who’s excessively negative or who believes that they’re doing you a favor just by deigning to acknowledge your existence, you’re much more likely to see everything about them as negative.
You see this with celebrities all the time, possibly without realizing it. Kim Kardashian is a good-looking woman, but people will loudly proclaim how disgusting she is based on the fact that we’ve seen her fuck. Somebody may be classically handsome, but is kind of an asshole. They may have a gorgeous face but just looking at them makes your skin crawl and you associate everything with them as disgusting or stupid. Alternately, they may not be leading man handsome, but are a sweet, golden-retriever of a person. They may not make the list of World’s Sexiest Men, but you look at them and just smile; they’re cute and cuddly and something about them just does it for you.
When you’re walking around feeling like you’re being cheated out of something you’re owed, that women are out to make you jump through hoops or that you’re inherently fucked by the universe because the fates got together and decided to screw you over, it’s going to bleed through into everything you do. Trust me: you are not nearly as good at hiding your true feelings as you think. Even things like vocal tonality can make a world of difference; the phrase “Oh God, this is the stupidest thing ever,” means two entirely different things when you say it with a tonal upswing or a tonal downswing.
If you want to be more more attractive, you have to learn how to bring the positive energy. The better people feel in your presence, the more attractive you’ll be to them. Walking around with a chip on your shoulder and a steaming pile of resentment in your brain is going to make you profoundly less attractive, even to people who think you’re the perfect man for them otherwise.
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This article originally appeared on Doctor Nerd Love.
Stock photo ID:917064138
The worst 5, very well explained…..5th, 3rd & 2nd I hate the utmost
lol that make “men” less attractive…. like we are the only one’s hunting Sorry to tell you uptight, high maintenance chicks but not everyone is hunting for you…. you better start working on being MORE attractive as well because unless you look like a model…. chances are you’ll be alone for the rest of your life by being “passive” and waiting for a guy to do all of the above to impress and come after YOU! I’ve been asked out plenty of times by hot chicks… guess what I was doing?? Sitting there with my friend… we were both doing… Read more »
You’re #1
I apologize if this has already been pointed out but I didn’t feel like reading all 185 of the earlier comments to find if this has been mentioned, but there is a typo in your post under 3. “There’s a saying I’ve seen come up frequently when it comes to dating: “the person who cares the least, has the power.” The idea is that the person who is more invested in the other controls the relationship and thus sets the terms of how the relationship will progress.” This should read, “who is less invested in the other controls the relationship…”… Read more »
Hi Jules
I love your comment . You do not want lots of women,but the best women ,.the best woman .
That is why we love you.
You know, I think what I get from reading all these comments is that you can’t let other people define your self worth. It’s a road to misery. Beautiful women and rich men will always get more attention than the rest of us. It doesn’t mean they will have happier or more fulfilling lives that the average Joes and plain Janes. What we each make of our own lives is so much greater than the narrow attitudes of people who judge us, or who we imagine are judging us. Keep in mind that what people fantasize about isn’t realistically what… Read more »
🙂
@Jill, Best comment so far!
Hi you all should listen to this podcast with professor Duana Welch
that tells facts from research about how we pick our mates.
(Gottman recommend her book.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDyc5EdclOI
@silke, This was a great podcast. Interesting. There is a lot I agree with in this. I really think she is right when she says men and women have these traits they desire in one another….such as men wanting you and beauty while women want resources and ability/willingness to provide. I just do not know why we maintain this kind of thinking. If you are a highly successful woman making a lot of money, does it really make sense to want a man who makes more? Or men who persist in overvaluing youth and beauty. With regard to men, she… Read more »
Jules, I read a few report last night.
One said the finding is that in countries with equality between the sexes, this tendency for women to look for men with a high income is not at all strong ( I guess they had visited countries with low unemployment rates and a welfare state ) ….and instead for men with money they look for good looking men.
In my dream world people were attracted to those they love .
@silke, “……and instead for men with money they look for good looking men.” Did you men men with money look for good looking women? I can believe that in countries or societies with equality between the sexes there is less of this behavior as you assert….What just makes me wonder just why so many of us men fight equality. Things would be better for both men and women. “In my dream world people were attracted to those they love.” Yes. Do you think attraction comes first? Then love follows? I think attraction comes first. This attraction is not physical. It… Read more »
Hi Jules you ask ” do you think attraction come first and then love follows?” I think it can happen both ways. A friend of mine ,a married woman she worked side by side with a man at the university for years. And bang one day she suddely “saw” him and fell so deeply in love (and lust) that she left her husband and two children and married him .It was crazy and she said” I have never been as sane as I was when I was that crazy”. That marriage number two lasted. I believe in love at first… Read more »
Wikipedia tells me that bin Laden is not a good exaple, as he was married 22 times…
@silke, I think it can happen both ways too. But, it also seems as if “love at first sight” is really more about lust. Such relationships often lack a good foundation and lame out.. When I was in graduate school, I met a Korean student who today is my BEST friend for nearly 30 years. He once gave the following comparison to love in the EAST versus the WEST: He said in America, the glass of love starts full and empties out quickly…In the EAST, the glass of love has just a little bit of love. But, it grows to… Read more »
I mean to say that the trend in socities today with high equality between the sexes, women care less about a mans family income and more about how he looks ( according to the report).
I think this means if it is true ,,that women feel more free to choose men they are sexually attracted to instead of choosing men with money.
@silke, OK. Yes, i would agree. Also, as women achieve greater financial success, they demand more of men. That is, money/status is no longer the driver as it was say 50 years ago…. They want a man who is intelligent and who can engage them in stimulating conversation(s). They want a man who lives in the moment and is present with them. An emotionally intelligent man. Not an overly sensitive man….. They want a man who dresses well. A man who takes pride in his appearance. A man who puts in effort. Unfortunately, that is hard for a lot of… Read more »
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/230763257_Stepping_Out_of_the_Caveman's_Shadow_Nations'_Gender_Gap_Predicts_Degree_of_Sex_Differentiation_in_Mate_Preferences
No one denies men in general value youth and beauty to SOME degree. What is being denied is men ONLY value youth and beauty. Erin has said multiple times that men value youth and beauty only in various comments. The reality of humans is there seems to be inbuilt instincts which can partly shape who we’re attracted to. This only happens in a general sense across the population, most will have it but not all. Youth and beauty are high up on the list of things that attract men as evident by cross-culture studies from what I’ve seen. It’s why… Read more »
@Archy, OK. Great points. “I’d say Young men struggle more than young women to find partners, it seems older men have more desirability to a point and younger women have more too.” Yes, I will agree with you here too. BUT, let’s take a closer look at the US CPS data: Wife 10–14 years older than husband 1% Wife 6–9 years older than husband 2.7% Wife 4–5 years older than husband 3.3% Wife 2–3 years older than husband 6.5% Husband 2–3 years older than wife 20.4% Husband 4–5 years older than wife 13.3% Husband 6–9 years older than wife 11.6%… Read more »
Jules what is it saying?
I can not see it.
All I can read out of this is that both men and women seldom marry persons more 10 years older or younger than themselves.So maybe we see others in 10+,10- as being within our own age group.
@silke, What I see is men having a wife that is younger at the rate that is 4-5 times that of wife having a younger husband. For example, Husband 4–5 years older than wife 13.3% (younger wife) Wife 4–5 years older than husband 3.3% (younger husband) i cannot find the data source, but I once came across some metric that stated the older the man is when he gets married, the greater the disparity in age between him and woman….If the guy was 40, he married someone say 6 yrs younger, if he was 50, he married someone 12 yrs… Read more »
“f the guy was 40, he married someone say 6 yrs younger, if he was 50, he married someone 12 yrs younger, if he was sixty he married a woman 20+ yrs younger….again we see the pattern of men favoring youthful women. ” If that is true, they are choosing women 34, 38 , and 40 years old. There is a MASSIVE fertility drop for women at 40-44. That gives 6-10 years before the issues affect women hard for 40 year old men, 2-6 years for the women marrying the 50 year old, 0-4 years for the women marrying the… Read more »
Archy Yes HRT does something to a woman. The skin looks good and she has more sexual desire even when no man is near to trigger it. I think you miss some important factors: Men compeet with other men and I fear many men choose to have a woman that other men desire . Men like to feel like the strong part in romatic relationship and marriage. That is why they are comfortable with a wife that is younger,with shorter education, smaller income etc. A young woman demands less and is easier to control. Some men also want a wife… Read more »
one more thing Archy
American Caitlin Jenners at 65 has chosen to transiton into a woman at the age where only men 75-85-95 will find her attractive (if your theory is corrrect).
In the podcast with Welch ,she said it is straight women and gay men that has this problem with mens choice of mates as they age.
@Archy, “The sad fact is the women their age are not fertile anymore and from the pure evolutionary standpoint one could argue it made no sense dating them if you can’t have kids.” A lot of times Archy, kids are not in the equation….Sometimes these men 50+ are divorced and already have grown kids. Hence, there is not desire for kids. So, the fertility issue is moot. A 40 year old man marrying a 32 year old woman is a different issue. She might want kids or both might. It could be a first marriage for each person and they… Read more »
I was speaking only of the instinct part, there’s a whole host of other issues as you say as to what attracts them. Could very well be an instinct to be head of the household/dominant too but I was specifically talking just of the lust/physical attraction part.
@Archy, “The sad fact is the women their age are not fertile anymore and from the pure evolutionary standpoint one could argue it made no sense dating them if you can’t have kids.” A lot of times Archy, kids are not in the equation….Sometimes these men 50+ are divorced and already have grown kids. Hence, there is not desire for kids. So, the fertility issue is moot. A 40 year old man marrying a 32 year old woman is a different issue. She might want kids or both might. It could be a first marriage for each person and they… Read more »
Archy
Then if our cave men and cave women instincts still determine a lot of what we do today then I do not understand the behavior of gay and lesbians and all the trans people.
Gay men are not that attracted to young women and their curves….
Homosexuality is a tricky thing to understand. My best guess is there is part of the brain that is influenced by the male and female hormones in the womb and gay people tend to have more of the opposite genders hormone possibly for a time or potentially something wires them in for the attraction that the opposite sex normally gets. Effeminate men may have had more female hormones but I haven’t seen any study of typically feminine men and their hormone levels in the womb. Trans is potentially a similar issue but different part of the brain. My guess is… Read more »
@silke, “Then if our cave men and cave women instincts still determine a lot of what we do today..” You know I really do not think these instincts are the key driver of our behavior today. I think it is primarily based on socialization which is largely dependent on economics too….. If men want young women, then they should say it and stop with the BS. Obviously, if men are willing to pay large sums of money to have sex with young women, it stands to reason this IS a highly prized thing for a lot of men. If women… Read more »
Yes Jules,this kind of thinking relegate most men and women to an inferior status.
Jules I am not so sure we all pretend. It is more likely that as adults see there has to be a compromise or remain single for the rest of their life waiting for the prince to come riding on his white horse.. We all want something,long for something and few think it possible to get 100% when we have reached the age of maturity. If you know what is the most important for you then you can live a long happy life with a parter that is not 100% of what you dream of, if both of you choose… Read more »
I admit I bring this up partly because it’s a funny name, but there is a place in Chicago known as the Viagra Triangle, where old, wealthy men meet up with young, hot women. People bring up the concept of emotional intelligence varying with age. So who is using whom? Is the fact that the women are much younger than the men mean that they’re less culpable if you assume that they are using each other? I knew what a user was when I was 20. I s using some one for money so difficult to grasp that only a… Read more »
🙂
The Viagra Triagle.
It sounds to me this is place where young women look for a sugar daddy.
Those kind of relations are most often described as gray area prostitution.
Jules I also wonder why some men here attacked Erin they way they did. They know her ,she has been active online for a long time and she expresses herself well in my opinon. But now she hit a nerve. Did she misunderstand everything or did she open their eyes to how they speak about and see women? All she did was to tell back to us all how she interpreted the story. In a way this is a bit similar to how white people react when they are told they are racists. I know you are a man that… Read more »
I have a comment in moderation still waiting that explains why it annoyed men, it wasn’t about the men and how they talk about women, it was about purposely misrepresenting what they said. It’s not so much her views that are in question, it’s how she talks about it and how she sees things in peoples comments that are just not there. The only one who sounds sexist here is Erin herself with her incessant use of negative generalizations of men. She’s always hit a nerve, she sounds very much like a very bitter person who sees men as toxic,… Read more »
Archy if you men here felt invalidated then I do understand the anger you feel.
Not so much anger, just like…over it, tired of it. Annoyed. Only thing I am angry at is extreme wealth disparity and Australia having a moron for it’s current leader.
Read my comment with the timestamp: July 14, 2015 at 1:18 am. I go into some detail there, there is one or two others still in moderation queue that go into it more. Is it really really simple to understand. People seem to assume that it is about discussions on some men being more attracted to younger women, as if that is what hits the nerve. It’s not that at all. Hell most of the men here have said as much and know quite a lot of men are very attracted to women younger than themselves. I will try do… Read more »
Archy We all have images of other people inside of us. If you are fortunate to grow up in a family with kind gentle souls you will will have images of others inside of you as kind and gentle souls. Once upon a time I was as angry as Erin is .I was angry at men ,if no man was near because inside my me memory was bad . That is why I now do what I can to have positive inner pictures of men and I never have company with any man that talks or behave badly towards women.… Read more »
In the 50-60 year old range, you usually have more women than men. From birth until around 35 there are more men than women, at 35 it becomes 50:50 then after that there are more women from the last I saw of general population statistics. There are more males born too but the male genetics is a bit more unstable leading to more deaths and also risk-taking in teens/early adulthood tends to reduce the number too. I think what happens in life is in the 20-30’s women have more men to choose from, men feel lonelier and then that dynamic… Read more »
” as if she knew his mind and actions better than he did..”
I understand what you mean Archy.
And when this happens ,it is invalidation.
One more comment on Bobbt’s story. Bobbt provided us with the information he had “for hot 20 something year olds!”, she’s hot and in her 20s (which could mean 25 BTW). That’s pretty much the same information a guy gets “at first sight” in a night club. He’s gotten some criticism for “highlighting” the only information he had. That’s a fair criticism if beauty is not to be valued at all. We’re alternately told that it’s OK to value appearance and not OK to value appearance. How a person treats the other qualities are interesting because they are not mentioned.… Read more »
“I think the story says less about how men value women as alleged by some and more about how an individual perceives men, women, and relationships based on how they “filled in the blanks”.” Exactly. He gave very little information, and peoples insecurities and life experiences filled in the blanks. I thought he was just saying that his attitude and change in lifestyle was attracting more people than he use to and indicated it was quite a positive increase because “20something hot women” have a greater dating pool and for him to get the attention of some would mean his… Read more »
To all of you that took part in the debate on here.
Some brought up the issue that women are cruel when men try to get a date or try to talk.
Here is video from what happend to man in London whey he tried to get a date by approching strangers .
I think 99% of these women was polite and not at all cruel .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1fqC9nbmc4
@ silke
Most people I think are polite. I even believe the commenter on another article who said that women feel bad about hurting some one else’s feeling when they turn them down. Still, it only makes it hurt less. It still stings especially if you’ve been mentally preparing for it. I wonder if that’s why some guys use the PUA method. If I don’t care, it doesn’t hurt. If I’m being some other guy, then she’s not rejecting me. She’s rejecting him.
I’m late to this party but I want to ask, do mean really want women to ask them out? I’ve always sensed that many men want to feel like the pursuer, and they would be intimidated by a woman who is aggressive enough to ask men out. They would assume she’s slutty or just too scary. I know men say they wish women would ask them out but I don’t know if they’d really be confortable with it. I admit my only experience was a bad one in high school where I asked out a guy I had a crush… Read more »
I can only speak for myself and I admit that I’ve had mostly bad reactions to women approaching me first, but as I pointed out before, it’s largely because I’m so rarely asked. The key to a man accepting IMO is the ability to make him feel comfortable (safe). It’s something a lot easier said than done. Heck, if approaching people were easy, men wouldn’t be complaining about having to do it all the time. Erin made the comment earlier about meeting a guy and wanting him to ask her for her number. I think the assumption is if he… Read more »
@Jill, I would love for women to do approaches more. I prefer people to be upfront with their feelings as I don’t like the whole “game” of pursuing and trying to guess if subtle looks are signs of interest or if she is just being friendly. Any man that feels “less” of a man because the woman approached him is too damn insecure to date I’d say. Dating should be about the relationship building on the dates, spending time together and not some silly game of cat n mouse.
@ Erin Let’s cover one more thing. You deny suggesting bobbt’s friend was a predator for dating women who are not emotionally mature. Fair enough. So what other inequalities besides age do you see as creating a mismatched union so out of wack that it’s worthy of being called out. What’s the acceptable height difference between two people? Does the man always have to be taller? What about education? I have a masters degree. Does that mean I should only date women with a bachelor’s degree or higher? What about finances? What’s the range of acceptable difference like 80 –… Read more »
John I think you can find examples yourself if you try: it has to do with difference in power ,relations where one is dependant upon the other and the the weak parts ability to take care of them selves. That is why teachers can not date students, doctors or shrinks can not date patients, a care taker can not date the one she visits , diacon can not date or sleep with the persons he helps….the list is long. It has to do with ethics and we all have a resposibilty towards other ,and not use others for sex etc.… Read more »
one more example :
If I bring you bring in a person from a poor country to marry BECAUSE you think that person will be more submissive and you will have all the power in the marriage then we all have a right to speak up.
This happens sometimes.
@silke,
Your point is excellent! Why? Because of the power dynamic in relationships….
When it comes to serious relationships, women do seem to be more interested in a more egalitarian relationship. This various by generation. With today’s well educated and financially independent women, they do certainly want a more egalitarian relationship.
This power dynamic we have here is rooted in economics. As more and more women become increasingly more educated and financially independent, the old older will crumble. We are seeing it dissipate already…
@ Jules I disagree. The power dynamic is based on who does the asking and who gets asked. Men did the asking, but were always expected to pay for the date. We even see women here saying whoever does the asking should pay. Men always made the money, but as you said that’s changed. Women now can very well do the asking. So why don’t they? Why do women refuse even though by their own admission they aren’t getting what they want? Because there is safety and power in being able to reject someone. They choose not to give up… Read more »
Why take the risk of rejection when many can be passive and still get success?
It reminds of me the difference between shy men and shy women. Shy women have FAR more success at dating than shy men do, and I will be shocked as hell if that is untrue. Every shy woman I’ve known has had far more time in a relationship than shy men. The shyest women I know have dated, the shyest men I know are probably still virgins.
@ John Anderson,
I agree with what you say above about the power dynamic with men doing the asking and paying etc…Hence the privilege women enjoy with dating and sex..
I was speaking in the context of AFTER the relationship has commenced. Once you get past the initial stage of asking her out and a full blown relationship has developed, A committed relationship. I see women seeking men who are more on their socioeconomic level (or higher).
@ silke The question isn’t a power difference. The question is whether there is sufficient power difference to negate consent. It would then not matter what the intent of the man with the foreign bride is. He could in fact love her on a deep and emotional level and the power difference can still be argued to be so great that it would negate her ability to consent even if she in turn loved him on a deep and emotional level. But based on my reading of her comments that’s not what Erin is complaining about. It’s not 40 year… Read more »
🙂
I think persons with an IQ of 175 have sex all the time with persons with the IQ 100-110 if the 175 person is a man and the 100-110 is good looking
(but will he marry her and choose her for his life long companion?)
I like Erin and that is why I try to understand her.
@silke, “(but will he marry her and choose her for his life long companion?)” Yes!!! Men do this everyday here in America when she is much younger, hot, and good looking…I advise against this kind of behavior on the part of us men. The fundamental difference I observe, speaking to Erin’s point, is just how few men marry or go after older women, especially much older women. Some men do. But, it is very few. Why? Because, most men find much older women unattractive. I think this is what Archy was arguing above…..On the flip side we see young women… Read more »
“What Erin is saying is that a 20 year old can consent to sex just not with some one who is 30. A 30 year old can enter into a relationship just shouldn’t with a person over 40, etc.”
Whaaaat??????? Please stop putting words in my mouth. I never, ever said or thought ever once that a 20 year old can’t consent to sex with someone who is over 30. I am having a WTF moment. *You* said that. Not me.
“Whaaaat??????? Please stop putting words in my mouth. I never, ever said or thought ever once that a 20 year old can’t consent to sex with someone who is over 30. I am having a WTF moment. *You* said that. Not me.”
Hahahhaha. Is this a joke? YOU are being surprised by someone putting words in your mouth when you have done it multiple times here, and regularly do it on this site??
@ Erin Actually you’re putting words in my mouth, but why stop now. You miss important qualifiers like “based on my reading of her comments” and “This seems to be the argument she’s making.” So you’ve chosen to clarify and it is still unclear to me. I think we understand you’re complaint about beauty except that I believe that most people value beauty. Heck, my mom was 70 and when we went car shopping the biggest thing on her list was that the car was red. I was looking ar cost, fuel economy, reliability, etc. She liked the way the… Read more »
“So what other inequalities besides age do you see as creating a mismatched union so out of wack that it’s worthy of being called out.” I don’t consider an age difference an “inequality” by itself. Although it certainly can create an inequality. There is a reason younger people look to older people for guidance , mentorship and education. But age as a “inequality” on it’s own is not anything I’ve ever said. What I have discussed is the issue I see around how a lot of men choose to attach a value to women based on their age. Even men… Read more »
“Yet Bobbt, who I believe is 40+ qualifies has used 20 year old women as the target group of all female behavior. ”
No he didn’t, stop lying.
Archy We all interpret what the content of what others say to us when we talk, just like we interpret non verbal cues. Here Erin tells us her interpretation and it shocked men. Last week man 74 years old told me about his dreams in life and told me it was not a to have a beautiful girl in bed. I did not know how to interpret this. Did he mean that all his adult life his desire was for “girls in his bed”? Girls? I interpret others by the way they talk,and we all do . When a person… Read more »
@ silke @ Jules It’s not that looks and money were all I could or do offer women. The challenge is how to communicate those other things. Looks are easy. You can see that. Money can be conveyed through designer clothes, jewelry, the car you drive, etc. You can utilize it as a crutch. You can buy a nice dinner, etc, until she gets to know you. In fact the dinner is the vehicle that allows her to get to know me. For me it’s even worse because I’m about a 19 introvert and 9 extravert The other qualities do… Read more »
Be careful.
Stakers are no good.
Oirish Comment’s To Erin: “Maybe he just doesn’t care for what *you* alone have to say, Erin, perhaps because of how you demand better treatment than you dispense.” “Absolulte and utter nonsense, Erin. Look at your response to bobbt in this very thread -”You weren’t interested in his story.” “You immediately went and derailed the thread, like you usually do.” “ You didn’t give a damn about listening or about being open-minded, you immediately went and pointed out what was problematic about it.” “Just not necessarily so to certain persons who constantly troll and derail threads with demands about being… Read more »
Haha, not quite Erin – you’re not discarding half of those remarks without dealing with them first. “Absolulte and utter nonsense, Erin. Look at your response to bobbt in this very thread -”You weren’t interested in his story.” You specifically claimed you didn’t get sarcasting or belittling with men who posted their stories here, and yet that’s exactly what you did with bobbt. You refuted yourself within the same thread. “You are a Schrodinger’s Rapist apologist, so you most certainly are guilty of propagating threat narratives.” Again, nothing incorrect about this. Schrodinger’s Rapist is bigoted profiling of men as potential… Read more »
GMP – if you would please review all of Oirish’s comments in this article for their abusive content? Thanks.
Hah that’s rich coming from you.
Yup once again she demands speshul snowflake status.
Bring on the cavlery when your too much of a coward to stand by your own words.
Strong independent woman here!
*special. *cavalry. *you’re. And don’t get me started on the grammar.
@ Erin Since you’re respecting other people’s stories and not putting words onto their mouths then maybe you can point out where bobbt blamed everything on his friends wife. I gather that his wife was displeased in the marriage (doesn’t mean it was her fault), initiates a divorce, and since ge’;s wallowing in self pity, it seems that he may have been open to reconciliation, but not her (still doesn’t say it was her fault). Does say that she was no longer interested in saving the marriage. “in general develops a ‘FTW’ attitude (in fact, he had that tattooed on… Read more »
*” tell us how a man is supposed to determine how kind or loyal or funny or intelligent a woman is at initial sight.” * Who said men have to choose women based on what can know about her from the first sight? Who said men can not talk with women,lots and lots of women and get to know them before they decide who they have feelings for and like a lot ? *”Tell me why women aren’t highlighting these other traits like they put on make up,heels or a push up bra.”. * Just give any woman time to… Read more »
@silke, “Just give any woman time to open her mouth ,spend time with you and you will know. But lots of men are in such a hurry,because they see dating as a numbers game and run around try to pick up the telephone number of as many women as possible ,.How stupid is that?” Yes, it is silly I know. BUT…. In defense of many men, the great challenge IS in finding women who will talk to you and spend time with you…I do not know about Scandinavia, but there is a culture today with many women who regard most… Read more »
To me it seems to less agression here between men and women ,in general.
@ silke “because they see dating as a numbers game and run around try to pick up the telephone number of as many women as possible ,.How stupid is that?” That depends. Would you take all your money and invest it in one stock and hope that is the one or would you diversify in hopes that one of many stocks you’ve invested in will hit it big. I think one of the things your missing is that most of the initial investment, financial and emotional, are made by men. Even after the initial date, men are expected to be… Read more »
John I do not know anything about the dating rituals for you in the US.
It is different in Scandinavia.
Here we do not go out with several different men( or women) at the same time.
It is one at a time.
@silke,
“Here we do not go out with several different men( or women) at the same time.”
Scandinavia here I come!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!
@ Jules My looks have changed a lot since I was in my 20s and not for the better. I don’t date let alone have sex as much as I used to. I used to be able to compensate for it because I had a lot more wealth than I do now. Without the body of a kick boxer or money, it’s been challenging. My 20 years old nephew dates a lot of different women. Heck my 21 year old niece seems to change boyfriends every few months. My 20 year old nephew is being hit on by a 40… Read more »
Hi John “without the body of a kick boxer ,or money it’s been challenging”. John, you can offer integrity,an interesting conversation, show her that you have skills for relationship(I mean you are here and discuss relationships every day…and think about it lot)..that you can make her feel that you are person it is good to be close to and be with. You have aged,but remember that women are blessed with a sexuality that can be attracted to both young and older men. Women do not need to have a young man to feel attraction,get aroused. That is the strength of… Read more »
You know John, when you say things like “Erin doesn’t want to do anything about it except complain…” – that’s a real convenient way to minimize my position. When you guys talk about the issues you face, it’s because you have something important to say right? You aren’t just saying these things for the sake of complaining about them. You want someone to understand you, talk about these things, validate what you’ve said. When I talk about the issues I’ve faced, it’s because I’m just looking to complain. You see the unfairness in that yes? I’m a human being, just… Read more »
@Erin,
“Can I give you a hug too Jules? I really need one right now.”
Sure!!! A big strong warm hug for you too:)
Thank you Jules. 🙂 🙂
@ Erin “But I would like to clarify one thing, please explain the comment: “When an entitled woman complains that she’s no longer entitled don’t expect a whole lot of sympathy from the oppressed because she joined out ranks.” What woman here is entitled? What makes a woman entitled?” Many women when younger had men pay attention to them. They were OK with having men take the risks in dating and do the asking while they could validate him by accepting or reject him. Now she’s not getting the attention, but still demands that men take the risks and do… Read more »
You honestly expect her to understand that? I dare you to explain to her what the wall is.
@Erin, If you’ve been approached by someone who asks you out, congratulations, you have gotten more attention than most guys I dare say.
@ John “Without the body of a kick boxer or money, it’s been challenging.” So, is that all you feel you have to offer a woman? There are LOTS of men who have neither good looks nor wealth but have great dating lives…Why? Because, they have so much else to offer that women find appealing. Things such as intelligence, kindness, passion, adventure, confidence, a sense of purpose, their sense of style…etc.. A lot of women are attracted to great looks and $$$$$. But, as a man I would accept nothing less than love, passion, and desire. I would never trade… Read more »
@ Jules @ Jules I’ve communicated with Erin enough to know that there are certain things which push her buttons. It didn’t have to be age. It could have been looks, which let’s face it is what the age thing boils down to. She angry because some men have the gaul to place value on a woman’s looks. Is that all they value? I don’t think bobbt knew anything else about the women so he mentioned what he knew, which was what he could see. Erin also seems to assume that his friend is predatory an assumption I think you… Read more »
John, I understand that you and I have had a lot of conversations here. That hardly makes you an authority on me. I don’t think it’s fair to talk for me in terms that make others believe you know who I am, what I feel an why I feel it better than I know myself. I’ll speak for myself okay? You speak for yourself, I’ll do the same. I won’t address other people on this board, and talk as if you aren’t part of the conversation to communicate what I believe your personal issues with women are. And FYI, every… Read more »
@Erin “Your attempt to disregard my view point under claims that I’m “emotional” and “unfair” is gaslighting at it’s finest. ” Gaslighting? You’re angry at him over things HE DID NOT SAY and misrepresenting his position and you have the nerve to say people are trying to gaslight you? If you want to stop being seeing as “emotional” then start using facts and stop adding into it. ASK HIM WHAT HE MEANT, you’re just filling in the blanks and having massive leaps of logic. Funny how multiple men understood him far better than you did. It’s not gaslighting to point… Read more »
Hi Erin I think you bring up important issues. It is an important issue the fact that men tell they did not see it coming when women initiate divorce. The chance that she never vocied her feelings and frustrations in that marriage is like zero. But the man did not see her expressing her feelings as important enough to take them seriously or understand . And when he later tell friends and family about his divorce he show that he does not understand his wife at all. It is an important issue that women’s looks and age for some men… Read more »
@silke, “And if men see it a right they have to choose partners based on looks,then why are they surprised if that partner leave them after a while ,totally frustrated?” Ditto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just as a woman who chooses a man for money, status, looks, etc is bound to become frustrated and eventually leave him…. We men need to demand more substance of ourselves when choosing a partner…Yes, the reason most men do not see it coming is because we are not in tune with the feelings of our women…Just as my ex wife was not in tune to the depth of… Read more »
Jules I agree. If a women choose to marry or live with a man only because he has a good income,status or looks then she is using him. Nobody like to be used. And if your ex was surprised when you left that show she did not see your suffering. It is scary ! Maybe those that manage to be married for life , are clever at reading each other,has more empathy for each other,and listen more to each other when they tell what hurts in the marriage? I am not sure what you mean you say ” for women… Read more »
@ silke We had that one discussion on GMP about women offering to split the bill and whether men should reject it. Many women made statements like she’s just offering to be polite, but she doesn’t really want to. One said she’d resent his taking her up on it. It would feel like a gift that was taken away. Many women do vocalize their frustration, but not in a way that men can understand. We never go out anymore might mean I’m losing connection to you, but a man might take that literalyl and believe that taking her out dancing… Read more »
As a divorced woman I agree with you.
Looking back on my marriage I see what I did wrong. I did not know how to make my husband understand me.
It is true ,but I can also tell you that for some of us, it is difficult to find words to express and ask for what you need in a relationship. It is also difficult for many men so instead they often ask for sex ( and food ) when what they actually want and need is something else in addition to frequent sex…
@silke, “Looking back on my marriage I see what I did wrong. I did not know how to make my husband understand me.” I think you are being too hard on yourself here. It was not your sole responsibility to “make your husband understand me.” He had a responsibility to seek to understand you and your feelings, desires, longings, emotions, etc. It is shared responsibility and obligations….Do you know how many married men do not even know their wife favorite color? or favorite food? or what really puts a smile on her face? The only obligation you had was to… Read more »
Yes, women may have “voiced” her frustrations but a lot of women will not speak clearly in a way he can understand. There is a reason why the mars/venus books are so popular. Women in general rely more on body language whereas men tend to focus more on the words being spoken. I can’t count how many times my female friends have tried to explain something and fail at it because they didn’t SAY WHAT THEY MEAN and instead relied on the man being a mind-reader. http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2012/04/01/6-ways-men-and-women-communicate-differently/ This goes into it a bit. Note that it isn’t true of every… Read more »
“Here is an interesting study about what happens when a woman enters into a relationship with a man that objectfy her.”
Sample size of under 200 for each gender, not a very good study and clearly not large enough to indicate the true picture of the genders.
True, but still they asked an interesiting question.
It warrants further study but I wouldn’t put much weight into this one. Studies also show women get more orgasms with the more money her partner earns too.
Yes Silke exactly! Most women don’t end their marriages because one day they just feel like it. Even when a man is completely blindsided by his wife’s request for a divorce. If a couple is on the road to divorce, it’s because they both contributed to that path. What I found problematic with Bobbt’s story about his friend was the mentality that his friend was completely unresponsible for the road his marriage had taken. He is half of that equation. Had the story been about a woman blindsided about her husband divorcing her, she is also half of that equation.… Read more »
Erin I do not understand what happened in this debate. I wlll read through the debate once more and see if I am able to grasp why some men became so angry when you shared your thoughts . And sometimes I am hurt when I see how men talk about age of women they are attracted to. But then I remember that in my life mens attraction to me has never given my anything ,because what matters is love ,not what makes makes men horny. And some men tell us about how they belive in the theories from evolutionary psychology… Read more »
People, men got upset at her because she wasn’t just sharing her thoughts, she was completely n utterly ignoring the original commenter (who told her what he meant) and stating as fact that he meant something else. It really isn’t hard to understand. The whole thing basically boils down to the difference between someone who sounds like a sexist bigot and thinks they know what the other gender thinks and does better than multiple people of that gender and someone who is simply saying what they interpret that person to mean but are not saying it as fact. Eg, there’s… Read more »
Oh Jesus Chris Erin, at NO POINT DID HE SAY IT WAS 100% HER FAULT. All it says was he didn’t see it coming and was a general nice guy. Stop reading your own pity party fantasies into something that doesn’t say anything even remotely like you think it does. You have NO right to be offended by what he said because you are misunderstanding what he says.
@Archy, One of the things I avoid in commenting is being too personal….I have always and continue to view you as a reasonable, rational, and level headed man. But, I really do not understand the vitriol some of you guys have towards Erin. Has she ever personally attacked you? Just curious.. Is it that you guys are so intent on shooting the messenger rather than hearing the message? I find nothing unreasonable about her comments or questions…..Do you find it threatening that she is saying you should not be stuck on young 20 something women if your are in your… Read more »
@ John “Without the body of a kick boxer or money, it’s been challenging.” So, is that all you feel you have to offer a woman? There are LOTS of men who have neither good looks nor wealth but have great dating lives…Why? Because, they have so much else to offer that women find appealing. Things such as intelligence, kindness, passion, adventure, confidence, a sense of purpose, their sense of style…etc.. A lot of women are attracted to great looks and $$$$$. But, as a man I would accept nothing less than love, passion, and desire. I would never trade… Read more »
Oh, none of these 5 are qualities of an AlphaDog. 😉
Be poor, and especially not have a job. Even if there are no jobs around, not having a job will kill a man’s attractiveness to a woman.
Archy, be creative! Your not unemployed, you’re the enterpeaur with a ‘Start up’ company!
Bobbt, would you be okay with Archy saying that to one of your daughters or nieces if he wanted to date them?
🙂
Forgot to write many in front of women, “Even if there are no jobs around, not having a job will kill a man’s attractiveness to many women.”
@Erin, I would hope my daughter gave any decent man (or woman if she swings that way) a chance even if unemployed. If they are lazy then that isn’t good, but there are many legit reasons for unemployment.
The question was not about giving decent men or women a chance even if unemployed. The question was how Bobbt would feel about man lying to one of the women in his life about his situation.
Ah, in that case if it was an attempt at humor it is ok but lying isn’t good.
I don’t know, it works for a lot of women.
That’s because *A LOT* of women are just so gosh darn messed up but men are totally 100% emotionally mature. If only women weren’t so f*cked up. It’s almost like women just want to be abused. Women are the reason good guys can’t have relationships. Maybe you can teach us lowly women how to be more like you men so we won’t be as messed up and can be more mature, worthy individuals like yourself.
WTF Erin? His comment is most likely talking about how women can generally remain passive as men are still expected to do the initial approach and ask out a woman. What the hell is your problem?
I’m a woman, what isn’t my problem right?
No, don’t bring gender into this. Notice I have never said “what is your problem to Silke or most of the other women here?. This is about you, not women in general. Your comment went way way way over the top with the sarcastic bitterness. Unless there is a deleted comment or his post was edited, I have no idea how you lept from his comment to what you wrote. If you were a man I would be as equally confused by such a response.
Neither. The truth just hurts.
@Archy, “Your comment went way way way over the top with the sarcastic bitterness ” I can really empathize with Erin here. Think about it in the context of race…What if there was a racial reference instead of age? Being Black, I would feel annoyed or hurt. When the age of the women was introduced, it did change the dynamic and substance of the story. Just my thought…. What if there was NO reference to age of the women who were showing interest? Different reply, maybe? I think we are trying to tap dance around the simple fact that youth… Read more »
@Julia Byrd, I understand full well the age issue is EXTREMELY aggravating and really really sucks, and is extremely unfair on women since biology screws them over royally with fertility. I am not surprised by her annoyance on discussions of age, it’s to be expected.
BUT
What surprised me was her response to the point of men having to pursue women. I could understand somewhat that reaction to the above age discussion but this comment thread was about passivity in dating.
I am completely stunned by your response. It’s not biology that “screws women over”. No one was complaining about biology. What “screws women over” is how alot of men choose to treat women based on their age. How alot of men choose to see women’s value and worth in comparrison with their own. The allowances men want made for them and their age and the way they don’t want to give much grace to women in return. This may be a shocker to you so I’ll whisper it…..”men get older too”. 😮 They get beer bellies, grey hairs or lose… Read more »
Archy
“I understand full well the age issue is EXTREMELY aggravating and really really sucks, and is extremely unfair on women ”
It’s only more unfair to women because they aren’t the people asking for dates. If a 40 year old woman wants to date, why doesn’t she just ask 40 years old men or 20 year old men whatever the case maybe. They just refuse to. Why, because asking has always sucked for men. The looks issue screws men less as we age because we we were screwed more to begin with.
“The allowances men want made for them and their age and the way they don’t want to give much grace to women in return. ” Yet another generalization of what men want. “Men are 100% subject to all the same things in aging that women are. ” There is no male menopause, there is a decline in testosterone but not a complete stop. “But because of how we’ve been socialized to treat men vs women, we have set a standard where we consider men more worthy then women when it comes to age. ” Who says they are more worthy?… Read more »
I don’t know, Erin.
He said that it works for a lot of women, but obviously it doesn’t work for all.
You touched on the subject yourself in an earlier post here. “Sometimes I see or talk to a man in public and would like him to ask for my number”.
What changes do you think would be needed in order to encourage people who don’t get a lot of attention, to be more active (and/or assertive) themselves?
I’m just a bit lost FlyingKal. Forgive me. Which “He” are you referring to when you say “he said it works for a lot of women”. Sometimes I feel that we are upholding stereotypes that women simply like to be abused by men and that concerns me. The older I get, the more I realize how important “emotional intelligence” is in a partner. It is the singular most important thing I look for in a man. It is the singular most important thing that causes me to feel a lot of respect for another person. I think when you work… Read more »
“Sometimes I feel that we are upholding stereotypes that women simply like to be abused by men and that concerns me. ”
Just to point out, saying that women are frequently passive when it comes to dating =/= claiming they like being abused.
@ Erin “As for your question, if I knew the answer to that, I’d probably be in a better position. I usually just stay out of men’s way in general. It’s easy to see the type of women most men pay attention to. ” Because there’s variance within groups as between. You speak ALMOST (I stress ALMOST) as if beauty and youth are reasons for older men NOT to date significantly younger women. I don’t see those as drawbacks. For example, there are many foreign 20 year old women as mature as 30 year old U.S. women. I mentioned maybe… Read more »
“If he’s willing to ask 1,000 women out and date a 100 to find his perfect match, why shouldn’t he?”
Hey, have at it I guess. Knock yourself out!!!
Let us all know here at GMP when you discover there are no perfect matches because there are no perfect human beings.
Regarding the last point.
The decidedly most vocabulary negative or resignated guy I know, is also by far the most popular among the women, as I’ve ever seen first-hand. And has been so for the entire 20+ years I’ve known him and counted myself as his friend.
So I don’t know, I’m just looking around myself, and trying to make some kind of sense to all this…
I have a friend like that also Kal. At about34 years old, my straight up nice guy buddy gets ‘Dumped’ by his wife( says he never saw it coming). After a short bout of self pity, he grows out his hair, grows a beard, buys a Harley and in general develops a ‘FTW’ attitude (in fact, he had that tattooed on his arm). Suddenly, shy Felix Unger is transformed before my eyes into a chick magnet for hot 20 something year olds! And while he wasn’t mean or an asshole to anyone, his indifferent attitude only seemed to enhance this… Read more »
And we all know that hot 20 something year olds the holy grail of what is valuable right bobbt? At least to men. This story about your friend wouldn’t be nearly as exciting if he instead met a wonderful 34 year old woman that had the same emotional maturity he had. Which he could have easily done if he had remained true to himself and actively pursued relationships with other women closer to his own age. Of course, your friend “deserves” these hot 20 year olds because he’s such a “nice guy” and his evil nasty wife “dumped” him without… Read more »
Erin , maybe this divorced man was more true to himself when he bought a motorbike and decided to enjoy life instead of being bitter and hate women?
Maybe his marriage had not ended if he had enjoyed life more and been more nougty?
Bitterness is not attractive ,but warmth( to be a warm person ) is and to be able to enjoy life is also attractive.
Once again Erin, you’ve managed to totally miss the point ! All you read is how he attracted younger women and that thing you have about dating your own age takes over! The whole point I was making is he didn’t set out to attract ANY women. His indifference toward them wasn’t an act, it was the way he felt at that time. There’s an article right now on GMP saying how nice guys finish first. Kenny was almost everything described in the article. Hard working, attentive , always planning nights out and getaways. And still she came home one… Read more »
Bobbt, I don’t believe I am missing the point at all. You are attempting to make a stereotype about women in general based on a very specific age group of women that are at a point in their life where they are beginning a new journey into their own personal and emotional development. 20 year old women are at the beginning of their journey into real adulthood. They are figuring out where they fit in the world, building experiences, developing emotionally and making mistakes. Even the most mature of 20 year olds won’t have the life experience a 34 year… Read more »
“Bobbt, I don’t believe I am missing the point at all. You are attempting to make a stereotype about women in general based on a very specific age group of women that are at a point in their life where they are beginning a new journey into their own personal and emotional development.” He really wasn’t, Erin. And given that in the past you have made blatant statements about “men” without qualifier, and defending making generalisations about men, you have absolutely no standing here to lecture him on making generalisations. ” Don’t you think it says something important that 20… Read more »
And again, you never blame the younger women for pursuing the older men. Why don’t you ask them why they do it? Y’all can’t have it both ways, Erin. You can’t complain about how immature men are in 20s (which leads to older men being dated) and then complain when the results of those choices come home to roost when men hit their 30s. The original point that you’ve derailed is that often negative men get more attention – but Dr Nerdlove is claiming that’s not attractive. As ever, the good doctor doesn’t really seem too interested in recounting the… Read more »
Considering the fact that I was once a 20 something year old woman and it wasn’t that long ago, I know a little something about why women do certain things. As I said to Bobbt, 20 something year old women are still working out their life. They got a lot of things to learn about themselves and relationships. They won’t be in the same place emotionally that they are now vs when they are 30 something themselves. They won’t be picking the same kind of guys either. But women aren’t given this grace in society to make mistakes and grow… Read more »
@ Erin I’ve been 20 years old too. It’s been pretty far back, but I still have an idea of how it was. Did I make mistakes? Sure and it isn’t just in romance. Did I always buy my cars at the lowest price I could? Probably not, but was it a fair price? It probably was within that range. Does that mean I was taken advantage of? Does that mean I should blame the car salesman? Probably not. The younger women aren’t going out with the older men because they’re not seeing some advantage in it for them. Maybe… Read more »
I think it’s interesting that you think that for younger women, being able to attract an older man strokes her ego. I dated a few older guys when I was younger mainly because those were the men that paid attention to me. Add in the fact that I do have unresolved issues with my own father and had low self confidence with men in general. I didn’t date them because I was trying to get my claws into them, take advantage of them or because I was looking to sponge off their finances. My friends where always making fun of… Read more »
“You guys you guys you guys” Reminds me of the racists I knew saying “You black people never work” “Why do men brag more about scoring younger women then a woman with a good heart and emotional intelligence?” Because braggers are usually insecure? I’m yet to see a single man get suicidal when a young, hot woman rejects or leaves him but I have seen it plenty in men who are in love with a woman because she HAS a good heart (or had, sometimes women cheat) and emotional intelligence. Stop listening to braggers, they brag about having a hot… Read more »
“20 year old girls falling for an indifferent older men does not justify upholding a stereotype about all women about liking ‘negative” traits in a guy. It doesn’t. You guys just wish it did so you can just stereotype women without looking at us as individuals worthy of the love you all believe yourselves worthy of.” No-one claimed or even implied “all” women did it, Erin – and again, I’ll refer you back to the double standards you have when it comes to generalisations. Kal and bobbt spoke in far less absolute terms than Dr Nerdlove did about women apparently… Read more »
“I think it’s interesting that you think that for younger women, being able to attract an older man strokes her ego.” All that garbage about men being less mature than women at the same age (ha) has to filter through somewhere. “You don’t like the choices 20 year old women are making when you are a 30 plus year old guy? Hey, guess what? You can choose to interact with other age groups of women and you know what?” Never stopped interacting with women my own age. Would quite happily go with a woman who’s older too. Currently am dating… Read more »
I just want to point out, with regard to the current debate here, that neither the age of my friend nor the age of any of the many “affected” women, was of any interest in my first post. Although I’ve seen his “charm” work on an age span from probably around 20 to 50+…
You’re right Kal. You did not qualify ages. I have a serious question for you. What conclusions can we draw about women based on the information you shared with us?
“Of course, your friend “deserves” these hot 20 year olds because he’s such a “nice guy” and his evil nasty wife “dumped” him without warning….this is a universal fairy tale men love to tell. ” Where did he say that? Way to miss the point. You are reading so much into his comment, and just spitting bitterness all over it. Is it any wonder why you say how men don’t listen or acknowledge your experience? In the typical world of dating, “hot 20 something year olds” have A LOT of dating capital. They are often pursued by men of many… Read more »
@bobbt, “Suddenly, shy Felix Unger is transformed before my eyes into a chick magnet for hot 20 something year olds! ” Here we go again!!! We men believe the gold standard for women is the “hot” woman or the “hot” 20 something year old…This mentality is really primitive..Seriously. Earlier today I had a few drinks with some guys. Afterwards the four of us were chatting and having a cigar outside in the parking lot. All of us are 50+. I was shocked at how these guys were looking at these young women (teen girls and 20 somethings) like hyenas sizing… Read more »
A warm hug from me Jules.
@silke,
A big strong warm hug back to you..:)
Can I give you a hug too Jules? I really need one right now.
Was the classy woman’s waist-hip ratio closer to 1 or 0.7 (0.7 is seen as the most attractive across many cultures)? Menopause changes the hormones which changes how fat distributes around the body for women and the waist-hip ratio changes quite a bit. I am 30 but I’ve noticed drastic differences in attractiveness of pre and post menopausal women from a physical looks perspective. I would guess waist-hip ratio is triggering an instinctual reaction heavily in many men (for women it’s shoulder-waist ratio of 1.5-1.6 seems to be the most attractive) In fact where I live I notice a major… Read more »
Archy you forget one important thing. In this life there is such a thing as LOVE! When you love somebody you want to be close to that person,and that longing does not dissapear even if we age. Maybe you will find the great love of your life Archy and spend your life with her. Do you think all your love and passion for her will wanish the day she becomes 49+,( the time for menopause for most women I think unless they have given birth to lots of children.) Do not put your trust in stupid studies that try to… Read more »
Unless it wasn’t clear I was speaking of lust and physical attraction only. As in see a woman/man, get that physical arousal and attraction.
Love is very powerful and changes how attraction can work, someone can put on a lot of weight and still be attractive more so than if they had just met that person at the larger weight.
There’s also emotional attraction, and chemistry (the unknown), etc at play. I don’t go after women based on physical attraction alone.
@silke,
LOVE is one of the greatest, if the the greatest, things a person can experience in life. One of the great tragedies in life is to have never experienced the feeling of love.
Here is an example of a powerful and undying love story from one of my mentors in life…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tySxPue9Dmw#t=26
One of the most touching and emotionally moving moments ever. outside of witnessing the love my grandmother had for my grandfather, our family patriarch.
@Archy, I did not even try to discern her hip to waist ratio….What made her so attractive was her walk, her warm smile, her classy dress, her hair style…She gave us a warm smile. I waived to her and said “Hello”. She responded back with a warm ‘Hello!” She had this simple elegance and confidence about herself Archy. That is beautiful and appealing to me. Those “hot” teens and 20 somethings with their short skirts, yoga pants, designer jeans, etc were women to lust after only….But, this was a WOMAN! I need a WOMAN Archy, not a young woman to… Read more »
This was one of the most lovely responses I’ve read on GMP. Jules, I feel the same way about men that you feel about women. I have never had a standard format of attraction to men based on looks or income. I’ve dated men that worked in finances and men who sold kitchen appliances. I’ve dated a man I liked very much who didn’t have a job at the time. I’ve dated tall, short, big, thin, older, slightly younger. For me, it’s more about the chemistry I feel with a man more then looks and I’ve found that chemistry comes… Read more »
There is a reduction in physical attraction at a certain age for people, I have a feeling this age is a few years earlier than men. Note that I say Physical attraction and not just attraction in general. If people actually read my comment, they’d realize I am speaking of a specific instinctual attraction that appears to happen in many men. There is a reason why youthful/child-bearing age appearance is rated the most physically attractive. If you are planning on having kids with a woman, yes there is a shelf life which is a cold fact of life. That doesn’t… Read more »
I still wonder why Dr. Nerdlove bothers to post these articles on GMP. By now he must know that he wont get agreement and he can’t really call in his commentariat from his own page.
There are many reasons why men might “put on airs”. They might be psyching themselves up in order to talk to her. If she’s making herself approachable, she not doing a very good job of it as far as he’s concerned. He might feel he’s not good enough for her. Isn’t that what PUA and all these other dating rules people have is all about? Making you seem more attractive than you are. Why would that be more wrong than say a push up bra? If you want to help guys who are looking for a committed relationship between equals,… Read more »
If the women or girl isn’t making herself approachable, the smartest thing is take that as a hint and move on, instead of go all pua and trying to win her over.
Doing nothing doesn’t make you less attractive. It might not get you were you want to be, but that’s a different story. As far as making yourself approachable even women haven’t gotten that right. How often have you heard women complain about getting attention from guys they didn’t want? How many times have women “settled” for guys because that’s the guy who asked them? Sure everyone needs to be proactive in a relationship but instead of insisting the side who’s already being proactive be even more proactive to compensate for the side that isn’t, why not suggest women be more… Read more »
Unwanted attention from men is only an issue if he won’t take no for an answer. It’s fine to approach respectfully and try ( an approach of “hey, if I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me” deserves all the eye rolls it gets), but if she says no, then thank her and pester her no more. The same applies with the roles reversed, too, by the way.
And yet there are women who think even an approach is too much.
And that usually gets tied into some kind of threat narrative because hey, that’s how men get treated these days.
So maybe if men are such a threat, women should just approach more.
I guess it depends which women you ask. Usually men seem only interested in the experiences of very attractive women. As someone who is hardly ever approached by age appropiate men, I would love it if a man closer to my own age would approach me in public. I don’t really want to meet someone via online dating website. Sometimes I see or talk to a man in public and would like him to ask for my number but my general experience with men is that I’m just not the type of woman they want anyway so as someone who… Read more »
Oh woe is you Erin!
The funny thing is you sound exactly like all the “Nice Guys(tm)” That get raked over the coals so frequently here and elsewhere within the f*min*st blogging world.
8Ball, the sooner you recognize women’s stories as deserving of the same respect you and other men’s stories deserve, the sooner you’ll be able to relate to women on an entirely other level and won’t feel the need to minimize a woman’s experience because you don’t want to hear it or don’t like what she had to say. The truth is a lot of men out there thinks that dating is all peaches and cream for women and everything comes so easy. They deny all women a piece of humanity when they lump women into these stereotypes. You attempt deny… Read more »
@8ball.. While I rarely agree with Erin on may things, this time I think she is right here. I do understand where you are coming from 8ball….I share your pain and frustration. But, we MUST listen to one another AND hear them out. This has been my biggest knock on GMP and discussions with many women. The “woe is me Erin” bit is a personal attack 8ball, probably unintended on your part. We men (and women) need to step back sometimes and be willing to hear one another out without resorting to methods that invalidate the views and feeling of… Read more »
Jules, thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you for promoting listening to each other and recogonizing that women als get disappointed in relationships and dating, just like men do. Thank you for bringing up empathy and the importance of it. Thank you for seeing my words here equal to those that men share.
I think that it would have been more open minded had you said something more like, “Hmm, that’s interesting and I didn’t consider that some women may experience those kind of things. Let me share with you my own perspetive on this…” . Instead of the tone of your response that reads to me that you think I’m some kind of idiot that doesn’t deserve to talk about what she’s experienced. Ha, like you *regularly* do that with men’s experiences here, Erin ^_^ Maybe he just doesn’t care for what *you* alone have to say, Erin, perhaps because of how… Read more »
Jules, people are willing to give people a chance like you say.
Just not necessarily so to certain persons who constantly troll and derail threads with demands about being treated a particular way when they have no intention of behaving that way themselves.
Jules
It has nothing to do with women generally. Of course there are women who are hurt by dating. My patience for Erin specifically is gone. I give what I get and Erin has, on many occasions, interpreted what I was saying in the worst possible light. So, no, I’ve tried to be understanding with her, years ago. Not gonna do it anymore.
8Ball – You lost “patience” for me specifically? Maybe. But you also lost patience for women in general a long time before you and I had discussions on GMP. I don’t even really remember us talking all that much on here. It’s pretty manipulative to frame the issue as one where you spent “years” trying to “understand” me but it’s my own fault that now you can lamblast me with comments like “woe is me” and completely write off anything I say because of your preconceived ideas about how I’ve wronged you. My original response to this article was pretty… Read more »
@ Erin That’s why I’m not too hard on Nerdlove when he makes comments like passivity makes you less attractive. I could disagree, but acknowledge that if women won’t ask you out and you want to date women, the solution is to ask them out even if it’s unfair. You can whine about it being unfair or you can do something about it. I’d say the same for women. If guys aren’t asking you out and you’re unsatisfied with the situation, you might want to consider being more proactive. I do recognize though the thrill of being chosen. There was… Read more »
“There are TONS of women out there like me that feel over-looked and underappreciated. But most guys are not interested in hearing or acknowledging the experiences of women like me when they can laminate about the super hot girls that always get approached.” Considering how less attractive women often have the exact same demands as more attractive women, why shouldn’t men go for the most attractive women? We can start by talking about obese women with laundry lists of demands, be fit, be rich, and have a big dick. And I could tell story after story about how women just… Read more »
8of10 – For goodness sake, not everything is about being “over weight” and needing to “work out”. Did it ever occur to you to simply say , “Hey Erin, that’s a tough thing to experience. I know how that can feel?” Instead of giving me a lecture about how men are entitled to the most attractive of women? Unbelievable. You, like 8Ball, are failing to relate to women and their stories in the way you relate to other men and their stories. That’s a problem.
“considering how less attractive often have the exact same demands as more attractive women……”
8of10 this statement makes me wonder what you mean.
We talk about romantic relationships here, and love relationships but you seems to see women as creatures that demand and they all the seem to demand the same .
Will you share with us what that is, that most women demand?
Men do not “demand ” the same from women, they come with all sorts of different lifestyles ,needs and values .
@ silke I think it goes something like this. Let’s say a woman is 5′ 6″ tall. She might prefer a man who’s 6′ tall or taller. There might be another woman who’s 5′ 3″ tall. She may also prefer a man 6′ tall or taller. Just because she’s 3 inches shorter doesn’t mean she’ll be OK with a man three inches shorter(5′ 9″). Just because a woman is not conventionally attractive doesn’t mean she won’t want a conventionally attractive, tall, wealthy, professionally employed, college educated man. I think the argument is that we (men and women) don’t necessarily scale… Read more »
@8 of 10, “Considering how less attractive women often have the exact same demands as more attractive women, why shouldn’t men go for the most attractive women?” Consider this: “Considering how less attractive men often have the exact same demands as more attractive men, why shouldn’t women go for the most attractive men? ” My point is that it works both ways in reality……more attractive people have more options, period. Men do the very same thing you say women do…..Honestly, as a man, I think we men are far more guilty…… We men have placed far to big a premium… Read more »
“We men have placed far to big a premium on “hot” women or attractive women. We ignore so many other very important things a woman have to offer us all in the name of getting the hottie or most attractive woman. Too many of us have our entire self worth linked to women in general and hot and/or attractive women in particular. it is time for us to see the forest!”
Thank you for saying this. A little acknowledgement goes a long way.
Also love the Halle Berry quote.
Do what you want Erin – I’ve tried to approach all sorts of women so your presumption isn’t relevant to me.
My point remains – if you women are constantly going to paint threat narratives about us for the simplest of things – manspreading, approaching you, etc. – then *you* do the asking out.
If you won’t let go of your fear, then don’t expect men to always work around it for you.
Oh, and for the record Erin – these complaints are not just the experiences of super hot women.
I”ve seen complaints about simply being approached in a cafe being harassment coming from various women online, and let’s just say neither their appearances or personalities were particularly attractive.
Oirish – while my *experience* (not my presumption) may not be relevant to you, it is to me. But I guess I can simply mirror back your own response to you. I don’t “constantly paint threat narratives about men doing the simplest things” so your experience isn’t relevant to me. I guess now we both have an excuse why we don’t have to listen to the other. (This is where you come back and tell me that you have no responsibility to honoring women’s experiences or stories because of all the terrible things women do to men.) At the end… Read more »
Oirish – while my *experience* (not my presumption) may not be relevant to you, it is to me. But I guess I can simply mirror back your own response to you. I don’t “constantly paint threat narratives about men doing the simplest things” so your experience isn’t relevant to me. I guess now we both have an excuse why we don’t have to listen to the other. You are a Schrodinger’s Rapist apologist, so you most certainly are guilty of propagating threat narratives. And yet you still want men to approach you. The phrase “catch-22” springs to mind. (This is… Read more »
” Usually men seem only interested in the experiences of very attractive women.” What men “seem” to be interested in and what they are interested in is 2 different stories. In fact many say the hottest women usually get approached less because they intimidate men with beauty. In ultra simple terms, more men will probably ask out an “8” vs a 9 or 10, assuming they MAY have a chance with the 8 but not with the 9 or 10. “As someone who is hardly ever approached by age appropiate men, I would love it if a man closer to… Read more »
Hi Erin I haven’t read this entire dialogue as it’s quite long! But wanted to chip in with I have been both conventionally attractive and unattractive (I have also presented as a woman, and as androgynous and date all genders). During those times I have approached and dated people of different levels of conventional attractiveness. When I was conventionally attractive I had way more people interested in me, but I’m still the same person now, and get far less (pretty much zero) attention. It hurts because I know I am still the same person, and perhaps I have missed out… Read more »
Arcadia: “Unwanted attention from men is only an issue if he won’t take no for an answer. It’s fine to approach respectfully and try ( an approach of “hey, if I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me” deserves all the eye rolls it gets), but if she says no, then thank her and pester her no more. The same applies with the roles reversed, too, by the way.” And what if she says nothing? You under-estimate how passive women can be. What if she just says “i see” and waits to see what else… Read more »