Lynn Beisner re-examines the rite of passage that is “first sex” after learning her son lost his virginity in a three-way with an older couple.
Originally appeared at Role/Reboot
Last Friday, I went to go pick up my college-age son to bring him home for the weekend. On the two-hour drive home, he broke the news to me that he had lost his virginity. That was hardly surprising since he is almost 19 and has had an active dating life since he was in middle school. What was stunning was how he lost it: in what he calls a “panda three-way”—a young, inexperienced man having sex with a slightly older established heterosexual couple. I was glad that I was driving and that the car was dark. I would have hated for him to have seen the shock and horror that must have registered on my face.
I was literally speechless. Thankfully, I was able to make a sound that conveyed to my son support and a desire for more information. So he went on to tell me about the concept behind a panda three-way. It seems that there is a popular video from a nature show that talks about how young male pandas are introduced to sex: in a three-way with an older established couple. My son told me that it was not just good, it was wonderful, the best “first time” that he can imagine any guy having. He says it was great to have a guided tour of a woman’s body from someone who knew it well and loved the woman in it. Knowing that there was another person there who could see to his partner’s pleasure should he fail left him free to explore, ask questions, and bask in the joy of the experience.
♦◊♦
As soon as I recovered my power of speech, I was able to express my pressing concern about whether the woman involved was able to give meaningful consent since the men had her outnumbered two to one. Even if she gave consent, I wondered, was it truly enthusiastic or was she emotionally coerced? My son responded by telling me that panda three-ways were “sort of her thing.” Some time before, she had seen the video about the panda three-way, remembered how awkward and awful it had been for the inexperienced guys she had been with, and decided that she wanted to help younger guys become confident, giving sexual partners. My son was the fourth guy to join her and her man in a panda three-way.
My son told me that as much as he enjoyed it, he did not plan to do multiple partner sex again. He thought it was great as an introduction, but now he wanted to go back to a single heterosexual partner. As I audibly sighed with relief, he reminded me gently, “Mom, poly is the new gay.” If I wanted to keep my cred as a liberal parent I would need to accept it. This set me back for a second. I thought about how quick I was to judge other parents who refused to accept their adult children’s homosexual relationships. Poly is the outpost on the sex positive frontier that my children’s generation has reached.
I am glad to say that I passed that test of parenting. I told him that I was happy that the experience was a good one for him and that if he decided to go poly or gay or anything else, I would love and respect him. I also told him that I was proud that I obviously raised a guy who is not homophobic and “not inclined to succumb to the pressure of hegemonic masculinity.” (He was raised by a feminist, so he knew what that meant.)
♦◊♦
I assumed that my son would want to keep it a secret from the rest of the family. But when we arrived home, I discovered that my daughter (two years older than my son) already knew. She approved of what her brother had experienced, and told me that when she was a younger, a slightly older couple had offered her the same thing. She declined—and regretted it. She says that her first time kind of sucked because she was horribly anxious and their chemistry was so intense that it became a fumble-fest that ended with her in discomfort and emotional distress. She thinks it would have been much better had she consummated her relationship with her boyfriend after she had “gotten the first time out of the way” with a couple—“a guy who knew what he was doing, with a woman there to help me figure out what I want to be doing.”
If my daughter’s frank discussion didn’t have my chin bouncing off of the floor, it was after my son told my husband about the panda three-way. My very British 50-year-old husband got a little misty-eyed. His voice broke as he told my son that he thought that might well be one of the best ways for a guy to learn how to please a woman. He ended by saying: “I wish that had been available to me.”
My son’s joyful first experience seems to be making helping him define what it means to be a man. His emerging definition of masculinity is obviously one not rooted in homophobia or in conforming to the traditional standards of masculinity created by our society. He has defined for himself what it means to be a man: Men can enjoy sex and make sex enjoyable for others. In his definition, men are fundamentally curious about women, not just about their bodies, but interested in their feelings, thoughts and experiences. Having defined what it means to be a man, he now feels competent to fulfill the obligations and enjoy the pleasures of that role, remaining teachable all the while.
♦◊♦
My son’s experience has my husband rethinking what our society’s norm should be for the rite of passage that is “first sex.” He wonders what it would be like if most young people had the option of entering sexual maturity under the guidance of a stable, slightly older couple. He looked me in the eye yesterday and softly said, “I can’t imagine how much better that would have been for me.” He added, his voice cracking just a bit, “and especially for you.”
I grinned and asked, “Are you asking us to be one of these guidance couples?” He looked at me in horror and said, “God no! I wouldn’t want that kind of responsibility. No way, those people will need training and vetting and supervision…and…and all sorts of stuff.” I hadn’t thought about that part: How would we get people to volunteer?
As humorous as I find my husband’s grand idea, I think he is onto an important notion. Perhaps we should change how we construct virginity-loss in our culture. Perhaps we should treat it as an individual rite of passage, not as the first encounter of a person’s first committed relationship. What if a person coming of age truly did have a number of choices? What if they could choose to have their first experience in a celebratory group sexual encounter, or in the panda three-way, or in an assisted encounter with their beloved? I am not saying that we should make all of these things available to young people, I am just asking what would happen if we did. What would it mean to transform our rituals for virginity loss? Would we be a happier society? Judging by what I’ve learned from my son, my daughter, and my own experience, I can’t help but think the answer to that last question might well be yes.
Lynn Biesner is the pseudonym for a mother, a writer, a feminist, and an academic living somewhere East of the Mississippi.
Photo courtesy of the mechanical turk
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If this is real, all I can say is what a creepy family that talks about their sex lives with each other. Between close siblings, ok I guess, but a son telling this to his mother? I find this incredibly hard to believe.
You’d be surprised what family members tell one another. I’ve heard of similar openness before.
I dont think its creepy that they are open about sexuality but that the mother in this article thinks that this sexual experience was normal. Gang bangs are creepy and perverse. ITs creepy that a husband and wife would have sex with another person in any capacity. The whole thing makes my skin crawl. I read it earlier this morning and have felt unsettled by it on and off. I have shown the article to other people who are very open and they are unsettled by it as well.
“Gang bangs are creepy and perverse.”
Alright, it’s been mentioned a few times…but I’ll mention it again…this was not a “gang-bang.” This was a three-way, or if you want to be classy you could call it a menage a trois. But it was not a gang-bang. (Not that there’s anything wrong with gang-bangs, mind you, assuming everyone involved is a consenting adult).
“ITs creepy that a husband and wife would have sex with another person in any capacity.”
It’s not creepy, just different. Some people have open marriages and there’s nothing wrong with it.
What a powerful story. Thank you so much for sharing it.
Your first thought was the woman was coerced? You clearly have little idea of the nature of a woman with a high sex drive. They. Love. Dicks.
That was a jarring note for me, too.
The fact that the author’s VERY FIRST reaction was to assume that the women was somehow coerced–well, that indicates that she’s not as on-board with the concept of female agency as she claims. There may be a bit of second-wave victim feminism clogging up the engines there as society roars forward into a new and better phase.
Actually it may have been the male coerced to co-operate because the woman was wanting some “young stuff” and this was a way to get it. With my ex wife who was a sex addict even our having sex five and six times a day wasn’t enough. Our sex didn’t make her feel dirty.
I suppose it’s possible the young man was the victim of the two nefarious horny older people. I suppose it’s possible that the woman was the victim of her evil husband who loves watching her be demeaned. I suppose it’s possible that the young man actually knew the woman and the set a plan to humiliate the husband, with a live action cuckold.
It’s also quite possible that they all had a damn good time, and no one coerced anyone. What a thought.
Yep. Too bad it didn’t occur to the author.
Here’s what I think is going on with the author, Copyleft, and hear me out. This person is a writer, yes? And is telling a narrative story about a situation she found herself in. In order to tell this story with a bit of drama and tension, she may have employed reactions of shock and worry to build that tension so that at the end, with the husband, she could come to resolution.
It’s possible she the author really didn’t think there was an issue of consent etc at all, only an author creating a story with lessons in it.
or maybe she felt shocked. She doesn’t seem to be commenting so we won’t know.
I find it odd that her first concern was for the woman and not for her own son who is younger. Actually I don’t find it odd…its just a natural extension of feminism but I do find it surprising how far feminism has gone.
Oh please. She was writing a story with tension and narrative. We have NO idea if she was truly that concerned about any of it. I wish she’d come here and comment. I think that’s a huge leap to say, that a mother concerned at various intervals about various people is due to feminism. I think it’s due to her being neurotic about sex in general and not keeping up with the times. That she’d not see the woman as having agency seems old fashioned to me.
We could deconstruct this all day! WHO IS THE ENEMY!!!!!!??????? I think it’s a story dramatized for effect. I’ve been searching for this infamous tape about panda three ways and the links that come up are all connected to her story. I mean, I know I haven’t heard of everything in the book, but I”ve never ever heard of a panda three way. Last I read, Pandas were dumb as toast and rarely got the chance to mate as they are entirely solitary in the bamboo forest.
They hardly mate in captivity and rarely do in the wild. So I’m not buying this whole panda three way thing until I get more verification. Anyway, I wonder if she was actually concerned to the levels she writes about or if she’s creating a story for us.
Sarcasm fully jokey and fun here, in case tone wasn’t clear….;)
Julie,
What you found is that this story was a FAKE. Its not uncommon among activist writers, and its happened before on GMP. There’re pretty easy to spot with the events being too “perfect” for the issue being promoted. I’m just suprised that they aren’t called out.
Very interesting, indeed
This is so inappropriate on sooo many different levels. I truly don’t know where to begin. There is something called boundaries. Parents like this – the uber open minded (and might I add often coupled with constant self congratulating ) can do just as much harm as ones that stifle and judge. This makes me sad. Sad that she is presenting this as “normal” – because this isn’t what a normal parent child relationship looks like. Get some professional psychologists to weigh in on this…. Not just a mom that (I would bet) is doing the antithesis of how she was raised and thinking it is great…..
I am also embarrassed for her – thank god she used a pseudonym.
All I can say is that this is ONE MESSED UP FAMILY.
Why? Because they talk about sex?
So what’s normal? Where the parents don’t talk about sex at all, don’t support the absolutely vital education of the child, ignore and pretend that sex doesn’t exist and then expect the child will marry and not divorce, knowing they’ve had their head in the sand about sexuality? Yeah, cause that’s worked out well.
He felt safe enough sharing some information. It doesn’t sound like he shared intimate details, only the overview. In our culture, talking about sex ever is TMI. I think it’s kind of an amazing story, personally.
@Jane Miller: “All I can say is that this is ONE MESSED UP FAMILY.”
The FEAR is strong in you, Luke – er, sorry, Jane.
Thank you jane for seeing that this is not normal and having the guts to say so. My friend and i talk a lot abt how americam culture loves to normalize that which is perverted and unhealthy. I feel bad for this kid. Hes already starting out with skewed views on healthy, loving relationships. Its probably the most perverted article ive read in a while
The only values the article mentioned being given to the son were tolerance of gay people and (imlicitly) openness when it came to discussing sex with his family. How is that skewed? The author specifically said that she was a bit taken aback by what he’d done.
I call this, “Optimization of the First Time”.
I’m not really sure what’s going on here, but I cannot help but wonder about the potential for a false solution.
On the one hand, it seems extremely attractive: having a “guide” (for lack of a better word) could easily reduce anxiety and make everything more enjoyable.
But on the other hand, why is there so much anxiety in the first place? If a couple is open, honest, and communicates freely, fear over “performance” should go away on its own.
It seems like this set up would bolster confidence but not do much for communication. Confidence can reduce anxiety, certainly, but what’s really more important: knowing that your performance will please your partner, or knowing that the relationship you have with your partner is stronger than any performance issues that might crop up?
This could certainly solve the former, but isn’t the latter more important?
Actually, I think that the guy did find communication. It says that he was happy to be able to ask questions openly when he needed to. It sounds like he was making sure he pleased his partners but felt comfortable enough with them to enjoy the experience and not just focus so much on “OMG, am I performing right?”
I mean, there’s something to be say for those of us who first fooled around with people that didn’t have the slightest idea of what they were doing either, but it sounds like he felt like he had a good experience, and as long as it was between consenting adults, isn’t that what matters?
I could be wrong though. Just some thoughts from my first impression from the story.
Also, I admire the mom’s bravery in having the conversation with her family. I wish I had grown up in an environment where we could have even breached the subject.
I’m not really talking about the experience of the son, rather the Father’s “Big Idea” for a whole new paradigm of sexual initiation.
As for the communication bit, I think there’s still a problem there. As you put it:
” It sounds like he was making sure he pleased his partners but felt comfortable enough with them to enjoy the experience and not just focus so much on ‘OMG, am I performing right?’”
This is still indicative of a problem: why did he need to go to another couple to get that experience?
What I’m trying to get at is: if you are open and communicative this type of experience should be available with everyone. A bond that is stronger that performance concerns needs to be built and will be specific to the relation. I’m just not convinced that this might lead to avoiding the work necessary to build that bond by substituting confidence for communication.
“This is still indicative of a problem: why did he need to go to another couple to get that experience?”
What’s the problem? It’s just a different way of getting experience.
It seems like there’s a lot of over-rationalizing both why this was such a perverse thing or alternately why it was wonderfully communicative. It was three people having sex. They probably had fun. The young guy probably learned a thing or two. Who cares? Go team!
I think it’s important to realize that you can’t always have communication without at least some level of confidence first. I get the impression that many of the authors on this site are in their upper 30′s 40′s or 50′s if that’s wrong I apoligise. I am in my mid 20′s I can say from my own experience that until you build some level of internal confidence communicating openly about sex with anyone can be very difficult. I believe that communication is very important but I have to say that for a “me” of several years ago communication just could not happen, simply because communication itself takes a lot of confidence.
Chicago-JSO, I’m 28 years old, and I’m pretty sure I remember what things were like 10 years ago.
Maybe it’s highly personal, but I know that my girlfriend and I trusted each other enough to be open about what we wanted (I still remember being surprised, though not unwilling, when she asked me to try using my teeth at one point).
People are going to be highly individual. What the girlfriend I had then wanted would never please the girlfriend I have now. I know this with certainty because, in both cases, we built up relationships that fostered open communication.
If I instead substituted confidence for that communication, I’m not sure I would be better off. I might be doing things wrong with respect to my current partner, but doing them with false confidence instilled by a different partner all together. With open communication, I don’t have to fear this outcome.
I think a lot of people don’t understand confidence. Confidence is not “know it all ism” far from it. In order for you to have that conversation with your girlfriend, for that matter for you to even talk to her so openly took a lot of personal comfort, personal comfort is confidence. Weather or not you developed that trust over months, or over days is immaterial, you had the confidence to communicate. But without first having the confidence you could never have had the conversation.
I think a lot of people don’t understand confidence. Confidence is not “know it all ism” far from it. In order for you to have that conversation with your girlfriend, for that matter for you to even talk to her so openly took a lot of personal comfort, personal comfort is confidence. Weather or not you developed that trust over months, or over days is immaterial, you had the confidence to communicate. But without first having the confidence you could never have had the conversation. Furthermore, I don’t know how you would have substituted confidence for a conversation. I get the impression you would just “assume you knew what you were doing.” That is not confidence, that’s cockiness and it usually ends badly.
Meh, its adults having sex with adults. Given the right couple it sounds like it could be a good deal.
I did find it a bit weird that the son was talking about it that openly to his mother but obviously they just have an open relationship when it comes to that kind of thing. Good for them.
Although he’s 19, he can’t evcen buy beer in most states. Have to wonder about the couple he had sex with and where the heck they came from. Perhaps a solicitation to break in a virgin? Who knows? 18 is legal age of consent but it doesn’t mean he’s an adult. Any concern for STD’s. How many other dudes did she really have been dipping their wick in her? I’m with Jane on this ….. wrong on a lot of levels. And don’t ya like the way this women is glamourized as this caring women what simply wants to help “inexperienced guys?”
Ya know what was great in my life, my wife and I were totally inexperienced when we got married and we made love and have had a great love life even since. Someone on here said “creepy:” and that’s what this was
What’s creepy to me here are
(a) the author’s reaction that the woman was doing this under coercion (“Are you SURE you didn’t accidentally rape her, son?”), and
(b) this commenter’s reaction that the 19-year-old man was coerced (“Are you sure you weren’t raped, son?”) and his comment about the woman and the number of dudes “dipping their wick in her” (Oh, no! She’s a slut and probably has an STD!!!) .
Sometimes what a person thinks about a situation says more about themselves than the actual situation itself. Perhaps that is the case here.
Yep.
Well…
-Was he raped?: There is something of an unequal power dynamic agewise, but I’d err on the side of “he’s an adult and it was his choice to make.”
-STDS: People who have alot of sex are more likely to have an STD, is that an altogether unreasonable thought to have? I’d certainly hope she used a condom but the article doesn’t specify.
I believe that the caring woman is glamorized as a caring woman as sort of an out. Why must the author use this out? Because even the author is afraid to say that the woman might have just wanted sex, her quip about the woman possibly being coerced might itself indicate some of her less than fully accepting ideas. I think the reason some of the commenters are reacting so harshly is two fold.
Firstly despite the progress towards sexual acceptance and fulfillment made by (for me, my parents generation) our society is still mired in the idea that women don’t like or want sex, except with one man for ever, whom they will marry, obviously most adults realize how wrong and juvenile of a belief this is, but it is still a pervasive belief which unfortunately leads to the disrespect of women, by denying them the the right to “just want sex” and the the slander of men by labeling men as “possibly, was that borderline rape?” rapists. A trap that the author herself fell into.
But secondly because the whole tale described in the article also breaks one the most profound untold sexual laws our society seems to hold, that is the idea that a sexually experienced person should never, ever, ever engage in sex (even if it’s completely consensual) with someone who is less sexually experienced. I believe that this is the real problem many people have with the article. This belief again sprouts from societies belief that sex is something that women don’t want, and that men should not want. It is because of this belief that many people reading this article subconsciously react negatively to its subject matter. Because in the context of this belief any couple who would have sex with a younger ( consenting adult ) is still by proxy a sort of pseudo rapist, and any younger (consenting adult) who has sex with and older person or couple is seen as a pseudo victim. I think this is very unfortunate!
Excellent points.
Very interesting story, thank you.
… I think it’s spot on. Boundaries keep on moving.
)
And this “Poly is the new gay”
(and, of course, fragile and fearful people are scared by this, and hold on to the “good old ways”
I’m glad there are less and less “prescribed recipes” for relationships and sex, and more and more options.
After all, it’s about adults who make free choices and choose their way in life.
It’s good to see a family that’s really sex-positive: chapeau.
First and foremost we ate not pandas. The older man ” loves” his wife? Bullshit. IM TIRED of people hopping into bed with groups of other people and trying to normalize that that to the sane adjusted people as love. The son had a gang bang pure and simple. What a disgusting way to learn abt healthy sexuality and love.
I’m a raging social liberal and I completely agree with you. I’m no prude but this entire situation (panda sex) is just too weird.
Even if you want to call it a gang-bang, and I really don’t, as long as it’s not a gang-rape, and clearly it’s not, what’s wrong with that? What are we normalizing that’s so wrong? and why should it not be normalized?
Say for example that this really was a gang-bang, and that the young person was a woman, and for the moment try to give the woman her own sexual sovereignty and say that she is fully consenting, and wants what is happening, obviously not a choice most women would make, but a choice perhaps some would. What would be wrong with that situation, calling it a gang-bang is really just obfuscating the issue, by trying to associate it with something that is “less clean.” I say, even if it were an overt out and out gang-bang, why would that be wrong?
@Chicago-JSO: “it were an overt out and out gang-bang, why would that be wrong?”
Because, for some people, sex is S-C-A-R-Y!!!
And the more persons involved in sex, the S-C-A-R-I-E-S-T it looks to them.
They’re just projecting their fear and insecurities.
In the meantime, others are just having a good time.
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”
(Henry Louis Mencken)
@Valter Viglietti I think your missing my point, I’m not trying to say that everyone should do it, I’m saying that some might find that to be a good option, by normalized I did not mean to say everyone should do something like what was described in the article, I was however reacting to t’s negativity in saying that from his/hers perspective “The older man ” loves” his wife? Bullshit. IM TIRED of people hopping into bed with groups of other people and trying to normalize that that to the sane adjusted people as love.” I don’t believe that pluralism means you don’t love your partner, looking at your original comment I think we are mostly in agreement, also I feel like an idiot because I’ve written all this and now I re-read your response and I’ve realized your were being sarcastic, funny the subtly you can miss on the internet.
@Chicago-JSO: “also I feel like an idiot…”
Yeah, it happens to everybody.
Sometimes we’re so eager to reply, we don’t thoroughly read what we’re replying to, and we don’t get it.
At least you got it in the end.
A gang bang is actually more like 10 guys to one girl. This was a menage a trois. Three people does not a gang bang make. At least get your terminology straight.
@t: “First and foremost we ate not pandas”
I sincerely hope you do not. I never ate any pandas for sure.
@t: “The son had a gang bang pure and simple”
You don’t even know what a gang bang is.
Your comment is dripping ignorance.
If his wife wanted to do it, and she enjoyed it, could that not be evidence that the husband loved her? I’m not saying there’s proof of his love one way or the other, but it’s hard to say “he doesn’t love her because he’s okay with her having sex with someone else.” What?
Even if he brought home another woman and his wife was okay with that, that doesn’t mean he DIDN’T love his wife. You can actually love more than one person at a time.
God knows two people who are sexually exclusive with each other can hate each other’s guts, so clearly being exclusive is not a synonym for love.
What a beautiful story! And how sad (and telling) that we are so turned around and frightened about sex in this culture that people can’t see such simple beauty, honesty, and emotional health for what it is.
Agreed.
1. I find it interesting that at hearing about her son’s experience she went straight to wondering if the woman involved “really wanted to do it”.
2. I like how the fact that he enjoyed that experience (with another man and a woman) may run counter to the idea that the only three ways guys are intersted in are MFF. I have to admit if I were to have a chance at a similar encounter (and honestly its still possible for me) I would seriously consider it.
3. As for the people who are saying this is not a way to learn about sex stop and think for a bit. From the male perspective this is a guy who took the opportunity to have a sexual encounter with a woman and her lover. That means that if he wasn’t doing something right she could stop him and bring in her lover as an example of how it should be done. I don’t think it was disgusting at all. I think its a very educational experience. And how many times have we heard people complain that men need to be educated on how to have sex with women? Well this guy managed to find a classroom where he could get schooled right.
4. I’m envious.
“.. express my pressing concern about whether the woman involved was able to give meaningful consent .. I am glad to say that I passed that test of parenting.”
Your son was at risk, and your instinct was to accuse him, instead of protect him. He was in a clearly power inbalanced situation, where he was the only person with zero (or almost zero) ability to consent.
And you were concerned about the woman?
Your son was (i) with an experienced couple who (ii) had done this before, (iii) knew each other and could coordinate effort, (iv) were older and more experienced, (v) were likely in their own home , and (vi) were in a clear position to exploit and abuse your son.
So. I am going to take a chill pill. I am going to stay calm.
It is possible that you son was brutally assaulted, and he does not think he can tell you, because he believes that your world view is:
man = mandatory perpetrator
woman = mandatory victim
If this is the case, he will not tell you. No matter how you ask, or what you say. I know this dynamic well, because it happened to me.
I have a feminist mother. It took 20 years for me to understand the nature of my mother’s violence and prejudice against her 4 male children. I do not speak to her any more.
I hope that I am wrong, because if I am right, your son’s identity is buried in a dungeon so deep, in a place so dark, that he may never find his way out. And the sunny happy person you think you know, is as real as the light that comes from a projector in a movie theatre.
Wow.
It’s also possible he consented quite happily, had a wonderful time, and feels really good about his experience.
You had a terrible experience Anthony, one that I can’t comprehend and I hate that that happened to you. I don’t want that experience happening to anyone.
It doesn’t mean that everyone is going to have that experience.
If she and his father are in as close of touch with their son as indicated, then the son knows he has a safe place to divulge information.
Not all sexual experiences are heartless and cruel. Some are wonderful, consensual, and gifts.
The odds are, it was wonderful and consensual. Thank heavens. However, if this young man is ever assaulted by a woman, who will he talk to?
1) His mother’s first instinct was to presume that the woman was a possible victim (even though she had age, experience, home court, and a 2v1 power-advantage), and that her own son was a possible perpetrator (even though he had none of these power-advantages).
2) His mother may have treated him in this “presumed perpetrator” way before (knowingly or not).
3) If (big if) he is a victim, who will he talk to? Who would believe him, if his own family will not?
I still hope he talks to his family. As indicated, his mother listened, took in new information and adapted to it as did the father. There currently is no indication that his family wouldn’t believe him.
If not his family, a lawyer and then counselor most certainly.
So personally I think this is a lovely story and not creepy at all. (Yes it is problematic that the author worried the woman had been “outnumbered,” so to speak…but that’s somewhat tangential to the rest of the story).
I’m curious though, for everyone who is saying they think this is creepy or that the 19-year-old couldn’t give consent. Would you say the same thing if the couple had been two women and he’d been the only man? What if it’d been a gay male couple? What if the 19-year-old had been a woman who’d had sex with two other women? Or two men? Is the gender of the people involved colouring your opinion of the situation, I wonder?
I think it’s because we have a deeply embedded sense of collective shame about sex. My opinion, but I see that our nation is terribly terribly fraught about it.
Parents aren’t supposed to teach their kids anything, schools can’t. I know people who won’t even use the proper words for parts with their kids. This is your “tee tee” or your “nee nees” which is OUTRAGEOUS.
Combine that internalized story with a tale here of a family doing something different….talking about sex, pleasure, happiness.
Combine that with a paradigm of erotic literacy training by an experienced person/couple that is different than the US norm (taking the fumbling first time with someone special often after marriage but not always…or else sex is impure…and the fumbling first time is supposed to be good?) and I think most of the reactions here are not that surprising.
“Taking the fumbling first time with someone special often after marriage but not always…or else sex is impure…and the fumbling first time is supposed to be good?”
I’ve always found this as being so weird. The story I always heard about sex when I was a teenager is that I wouldn’t like it the first time. The boy (cuz obviously it’d be with a boy) would probably be inexperienced and I’d be inexperienced, so it’d suck. But hey…it’d get better over time. Like…what? Who thinks that’s a good way to introduce people to sex?
Maybe that’s why we’re so conflicted about it – so many people start out with such crap experiences. (I’m being a bit facetious).
No, I agree. Why should anyone else get a first time full of pleasure when I didn’t!
Sex isn’t always great and wonderful every time when you’re not a virgin, so maybe a lame first experience is actually a good introduction to one part of the reality of sexuality. Some people have completely unrealistic expectations about sex in the positive direction, and that’s hardly conducive to great sexual relationships either.
True enough.
“Sex isn’t always great and wonderful every time when you’re not a virgin”
Don’t I know it.
There is nothing creepy about it at all. I think it is wonderful that a young adult (man or woman) feels free to explore him/herself in any way, with any person, any number, any situation.
In my opinion, experimentation outside the norm requires increased vigilance for possible abuse. This is not a moral issue, it is a practical issue. This is especially true when there is a large power inbalance, as in this case.
If this young man is abused, he may not feel that his family will support him. If the parent-child dynamic is characterized by a negative and stereotypical “control your predatory male instincts” message, how can any young man feel welcome to report a situation where he is victimized — especially if the perpetrator is female?
Of course, abuse is a very rare thing. I know that. The likelyhood is, thsi was a wonderful consensual experience, and there is nothing to worry about.
However, given the initial family reaction (not just the mother), there may be no way to know. A young man raised to think of himself as a “domesticated beast” has few options if he encounters true evil.
Okay but, I think you’re jumping to conclusions based on one story from one event in the family. The mother’s initial reaction was problematic, sure…but it’s not like it’s a sure-fire indicator that she’s raising her son to think of himself as a “domesticated beast” or something.
You are right, I am jumping to conclusions. The risk to the young man is probably very small.
I wonder if you agree that “experimentation outside the norm requires increased vigilance”? I am a big fan of freedom and self determination, but I am also a fan of managing risk based on reality as it is, and not as we wish it were.
Heck, man, I think even when working within the norm (sexually) people need to be vigilant. One-night-stands, for example, are within the norm, and yet there’s always the potential that you go home with the wrong person. It’s unlikely, but it’s there…and thus yeah, always stay vigilant. Or hey, there’s always the danger of getting and STI, even if you’re with lovely people, and thus yeah, be vigilant and practice safe sex.
On a related note, I wonder what the reaction would be if the 19-year-old was female and the male of the couple was much older than her instead of “slightly older than” her.
Those who are not troubled by this story might be a little more troubled if the couple was much older than the 19 year old, or if the 19 year old was female. There’s no good reason to see that differently, if they’re all adults, but many people don’t see it that way. I’ve heard on GMP that an older man and younger woman in any context is virtually by definition a case of exploitation.
No doubt if her son had a sexual encounter with two 25-year-old women, he would be a hero for all the straight men he knows.
If a 19 year old woman had a sexual encounter with two slightly older men, a LOT of people would assume that she was gang-raped pure and simple. Or that she is by definition a victim in some way. Probably a lot less heroification among her peers.
I’m assuming that in this story the 19 year old is not related to the couple. I’m assuming neither one of the couple is the young man’s boss, teacher, pastor, etc. These seem like important boundaries to me that healthy panda sex ought to respect as well. (I know, I’m being prescriptive about sex. Too bad.)
“I’m assuming that in this story the 19 year old is not related to the couple. I’m assuming neither one of the couple is the young man’s boss, teacher, pastor, etc. These seem like important boundaries to me that healthy panda sex ought to respect as well. (I know, I’m being prescriptive about sex. Too bad.)”
Least you’re willing to own it.
I’m willing to admit that with regards to whether the couple was related, a teacher, pastor, some sort of authority figure…it would certainly be cause to pause and look more closely at the situation. I just don’t think that the case of teacher/student (boss/employee, etc) sexual relationship necessarily means that consent couldn’t be given…I just think it makes the entire situation more complicated. And, of course, it’s worth avoiding if you can.
You’re right. If it was one of his teachers or his boss, it doesn’t mean there could never be consent, but it would definitely be complicated by the power dynamic. I would definitely agree about better to avoid it all around.
I was just concerned that a total green light on “panda sex” could be used to exonerate people of other responsibilities or appropriate boundaries in the sexual realm. I was envisioning a professor saying to the administration “it’s okay that I fucked a student. I was initiating her into the world sexuality. Don’t worry, my wife was in the room, so it’s all good. Don’t you know pandas do it all the time?”
I’m honestly not troubled by either of those alternative postulates. If the man was 19 and had sex with a 45 year old, well I wouldn’t personally be into that, but I could see some people would and I don’t see a problem with someone doing that.
Secondly as should be clear by some of my posts above even if the genders were reversed and this was a younger woman having sex with an older man, I don’t see that as being a problem either.
Finally, I think it is unfortunate that to some degree the only pure sex is sex between two adults that are exactly equal, except possibly if your more traditional at which point you might say it’s okay for the woman to make less money etc. A lot of people are attracted to other people for many reasons, just because one person might be in a place of authority over another does not mean that they cannot have consensual sex.
Because of my horrific high school days I was 26 when I lost my virginity. It was a stumbling mess. I used exhaustion as an excuse. Since I would have peolonged sessions later the girl assumed that this was the truth.
With my parents, especially my mother, I was very honest. So when I had my firsts I told my mother about them. One of the funniest things was when I was coming home from graduate school. I had my comps and then had to move out of my apartment. This was followed by the long drive back to NC from Little Rock. Yeah I was totally exhausted and slept for over fourteen hours. But when I woke up my girlfriend was already in bed with me. Sure we went at it frantical.
My mother had told me that since our wedding was the following Sunday as far as she was concerned we were already married and just waiting for the ceremony. So my very conservative mother was encouraging us to enjoy ourselves. The second night I enjoyed one of my favorite things, oral sex. The next morning, as I came out of my bedroom my mother was waiting and wanted to know how it was.
I shrugged and went um, hee, through my teeth. But mother press on, “No really did you enjoy yourself? Tell me!”
I hung my head down, “I can’t my tongue is swollen” I mumbled. That weekend my wife gave me a special present, shaved pussy. Oral sex was a big deal for my wife and I in 1979!
But I imagine that it was a shock, during junior high school she had told me about a man that had a mental problem, he liked to eat pussy. But doing it for over an hour gets you a swollen tongue.
I enjoy my sex private and exclusive. I love sex, not afraid of it, never have been. I COULD talk about it and attempt to have it with everyone on the planet, but I choose not to. Maybe if we reject the constant bombardment of sexual perversion like porn and sexual objectification we wouldn’t be so S.C.A.R.E.D. of something so beautiful. I found this C.R.E.E.P.Y.
I’m pretty sure that “perversion” comes from repression, not expression.
This actually made my skin crawl. I sincerely hope this is a troll story and not a real one. Firstly I cannot see any man being so comfortable ma with talking about sex with his mother. I find it nearly obscene that some of the answers on here are trying to show support for an act that was clearly an older couple using a young man for their sexual games. We all like to act like we can just brush off sexual experiences and be clinical and almost professional about sexual training…but people can’t!
I find it down right silly that people would expect a grown woman to let a young man have sex with her and think of it in any other way that a perverse bedroom fantasy. Although it looks great on paper to let this happen you would have to question..and i mean seriously question the motives of the old couple…cuckold maybe? Or revenge sex?
No human couple are mature enough to let this happen without it feeding their own perversions. To me this looked like an article written by a teenager with mummy issues….very revolting to even think of this happening and being accepted by parents. Also bringing in the idea of a hegemonic masculinity makes less than no sense. In my experience of dealing with mothers who bring their sons up with this attitude it emotionally stunts their sons by suppressing their nature and sexuality making them in to very frustrated and causing lots of problems later in as they cannot identify themselves as male without feeling like a bad person…..way to go fake feminist upbringing
Unfortunately you and many other responders are Illerate and unenformed about sex and sexuality. Its truly sad.
Actually I am using my phone so the key board is not easy to use and I cannot be bothered to amend some of the mistakes I make as any human with a brain can see that they are typos (clealry not you though) well if I have such a poor sense of what makes up a happy sex life im sure you would volunteer your wife to be a training ground for young men from across the land. I find it sad that in your childish attempt to make yourself seem mature by condoning sick acts like this it actually shows your lack of experience with couples and the harmful effects that throwing a third wheel into the mix makes.
Actually I didn’t have to volunteer my wife for anything being a sex addict she fucked “anything with pants on” as the old saying goes. Unfortunately I’m pretty sure that included my son. (But by the time he was twelve I was persona non grata thanks to the Social Workers)
But I can safely say that I have a number of friends that regularly have extra partners. Check alt.polyamory.
Why are you assuming this is an ad?
Actually I have a number of friends that ocassionally or more frequently invite extramarital partners into their beds. See alt.polyamory.com.
Not creepy
when I was a kid, my folks were incredibly open about sex, which lead to my first experiences with my high school girlfriend being awesome (no older couple, just 2 kids exploring each other).
I’ve already started teaching my kids about reproduction, relationships, and that it’s OK to be poly.
Full disclosure, I started identifying as poly a few years ago and have no interest in going back to monogamy. It sounds like the older couple in this story were very sex positive and that the woman was in fact running the show (not so uncommon in the poly world).
Also, everyone should go out and read Sex at Dawn – 2 anthropologists take apart a bunch of data around human sexuality. The most fascinating part for me was how researchers have in the past ignored their data (or just lied) so their findings wouldn’t buck the “societal norms”.
B