Doctor NerdLove’s handy guide for reading women’s body language.
Originally appeared at Paging Doctor NerdLove
One of the hardest parts of meeting women is the intial approach. For many men it’s a nerve-wracking enterprise—nobody wants to suffer the indignities of being shot down, especially if it’s in a public space. How’re we even supposed to know if they’re into us or not? Wouldn’t it be so much easier if women would let us know whether or not they were interested in us or whether they like us?
Turns out… they do. It’s just that most men aren’t picking up on it.
It’s amazing just how much we communicate without realizing it. In fact, the vast majority of human communication—up to 80% according to some studies—is non-verbal.
When it comes to dating, much of this can be deliberate. It can be anxiety-inducing, even frightening to try to tell someone you’re interested in them… or that you’re not. Many women prefer to provide subtle signs of interest or disinterest rather than risk the potential of humiliating themselves by being direct. They will try to give off signs through body language, letting people know whether or not they’re interested in being approached.
Being able to read people’s signs is a critical aspect of dating. Knowing how to read people lets you know when someone is interested in you and, critically, when they’re not and you’re better off not approaching them. Being able to read her body language is a great way of being able to gauge just how well an interaction with someone is going, as well as how to tell when you’ve fucked up. If you know how to recognize a woman’s signs and body language, you’ll be set to read her like a book.
WATCH HER EYES
A woman’s eyes are more than just a place to look when we’re pretending that we wouldn’t rather be staring at her boobs; they’re a vital means of non-verbal communication.
Eye contact can be incredibly intimate and powerful, which is why we get uncomfortable locking gazes with strangers. And yet, eye contact is a frequently overlooked, subtly potent way of communicating interest or disinterest. If you’ve ever played the eye-contact game with someone—you’re looking at them, they catch you looking, you look away quickly and only look back when you think she’s not looking—you may have been missing out on one of the most sure “come here” signals there is.
A woman who is interested in being approached will often use eye contact as a way of signaling her interest in you. If she’s making strong eye contact—holding your gaze for longer than a second or two—she’s likely interested. The longer she keeps contact, the more interested she is.
Many women will use a variation of the eye-contact game; they will make a point of making eye contact, then looking down and away before looking back again. Because we’re instinctively attracted to movement, the act of deliberately breaking eye-contact actually works to catch our attention. Breaking eye contact to look down is a submissive action, designed to look demure and inviting, while looking back up to re-initiate eye contact is a way of checking to see if you noticed and are still looking. The smile that comes with it is all but screaming “Yes, that was intended for you, now why don’t you come over here and talk to me already?”
Some women, especially particularly confident or assertive ones, will give what’s known as the “elevator gaze”; looking up and down your entire length. It’s a blatant “sizing you up” look and getting it is a sign that she likes what she sees.
On the other hand: is she actively avoiding eye-contact? Does she seem to look away as soon as she notices you looking, but doesn’t look back? She doesn’t want to talk to you. The most you can expect from her are polite but curt answers before she either tells you to go away or gets up and leaves herself.
Similarly, if she catches you looking and looks up and away, the intended message is very clear: “Don’t even bother.”
If you’re talking to someone who maintains eye contact or breaks and reinitiates it quickly, you can feel certain that she’s actively interested in what you have to say.
On the other hand, does she seems to be looking around the room every few seconds while you talk? Either she’s incredibly bored or she’s looking for an acceptable way of getting out of the conversation without blatantly violating the social contract. Once you notice that she seems to be looking everywhere but at you, you can be fairly certain that she’s about to see someone she needs to talk to right now—who also happens to be as far away from you as possible.
CHECK HER SMILE
This one seems like it would be obvious on its face: if she’s smiling at you, she’s interested. Nobody smiles at someone they don’t like, right?
Actually, no. Not really.
Smiling is an important means of non-verbal communication that has its origins in our primate ancestry and it can carry a wide variety of meanings. Smiling is often a sign of submission and reassurance; in many cases, by smiling we are sending the signal that hey, we’re not a threat, you don’t have to hurt us. A smile is frequently a way of placating others, especially if they seem as though they’re aggressive or angry. Baring one’s teeth in a smile can also be an implied threat or dominance challenge; Southern women especially learn early on how to deliver withering insults with a faux sweet smile. A smile can also be a disguise, masking the real underlying emotions; because they are socialized to not be rude, women will often smile at people they’re talking to even if they don’t particularly like them. A fake smile can keep up the social illusion that she’s interested in what you have to say, when in reality she desperately wishes that you would be decapitated by a flying toilet seat.
If you want to discern the message behind a smile, you need to be able to tell the difference between a real smile and a fake one.
A genuine smile, one that signals interest, is one that reaches the eyes. Also known as a Duchene smile, a genuine smile engages not just the muscles around the mouth but the eyes as well; a real smile will cause crinkling at the corners of the eyes.
Photo courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
You may also notice the sudden appearance of floating hearts and cartoon birds.
A fake smile, on the other hand, just engages the mouth alone. It’s occasionally known as the “Botox” smile for the way that the rest of the face seems to not react.
“Always smiling and happy! Always smiling and happy! ALWAYS SMILING! AND! HAPPY!”
READ HER BODY
A smile that seems plastered on—one that doesn’t reach the eyes—is a sign that she’s not interested in you, and is only continuing the interaction out of politeness.
The human body is incredibly expressive; we can convey emotional states, complex concepts, even sexual interest with just the position of our bodies and limbs. Women will give far more information via body language than almost any other signal.
The first and biggest sign is to look for is open or closed body positioning. A woman who is interested in you and who is comfortable in your presence will have more open body language; that is, she will be sitting up straighter, orienting herself towards you and leaving her arms and legs uncrossed. On the other hand, a woman with closed body language—pointing herself away from you, crossing her arms across her chest, hunching in or taking up less space—is trying to tell you that she’s closed off to you.
You also want to look for where her body is pointing. Humans tend to be goal focused and we will frequently orient ourselves in the direction of what we’re interested in whether its the buffet, a sexy stranger, or a speedy exit. If she’s pointing herself at you—especially with her knees and feet—she’s interested in you. Pointing away from you, on the other hand, is an indication that she’s bored or annoyed by you; she’s putting herself into a position where it’s easy to get up and move on.
If you find that the woman you’re talking to is mirroring your actions—she takes a sip of her drink when you take one of yours, when you cross your legs and lean to one side, so does she—it’s a strong signal that she likes you. We tend to like people who are similar to us; adopting the same body language—known as the chameleon effect—as the person we’re interested in is a way of helping to trigger that feeling. Mirroring the body language of others is a way of enhancing rapport and fostering a feeling of comfort and familiarity.
“I feel so oddly close to you right now…”
Interestingly, much like the time-dilation effect, the affection and warm feelings that mimicry brings seems to work both ways; both the mimic and the person being copied find that they’re subtly encouraged to like the other person more.Mimicry is also a sign that the person you’re talking to is paying close attention to what you have to say; the more absorbed she is in what you’re saying, the more likely she is to mimic you unconsciously.
IS SHE FIDGETING?
There are two types of nervousness when it comes to dating. There’s the “Oh God, I think he’s going to tell me to rub the lotion on my skin” nervousness that comes from being creeped out and the “Oh God he’s hot, do I have something in my teeth, shit, what about my breath, do I have any gum, please Jesus tell me I didn’t put on my ugly underwear today” nervousness that comes from being attracted to the person you’re talking to. Both women and men tend to unconsciously indulge in what’s known as “preening” behavior when they’re interested in somebody; these are little gestures and movements aimed at trying to groom themselves a little and presenting a better, more attractive display.
In women this most often manifests in playing with her hair, whether it’s hair tossing or twirling it around her fingers. Tossing the hair draws attention to the face and especially the neck and shoulders—two areas that are especially sensitive during foreplay. Twirling or absentmindedly playing with her hair meanwhile, is an unconscious way of drawing attention to it; the unspoken intent is to reinforce her femininity and desirability. It also helps show off her hair itself, a subtle indication of health and genetic potential.
Other signs of attraction include leg crossing. Many people will repeatedly cross and uncross their legs when they start feeling anxious or nervous; being attracted to someone can make them squirm in their seat at times. Much like with watching for orientation and pointing, how she’s crossing her legs can be a clue. A woman who’s interested in you is more likely to point her upper leg in your direction – the better with which to show off her gams to their best advantage. It’s a subtle sign, but one worth looking for.
Other signs of attraction-based nerves involve calling attention to her mouth. Lip licking—the “my mouth is dry” kind, not the Basic Instinct type—is a frequent sign of interest. Excitement tends to cause our mouths to go dry. Similarly, biting one’s lip calls a man’s eyes to her lips—another visible reminder of her femininity as well as one that prompts men to think about kissing.
Alternately, it could just be a sign of limited range as an actor.
SIGNS IT’S TIME TO GO
Being able to read her signs is a great way of knowing just how you’re doing. Someone who’s growing more attracted to you will laugh at your jokes—even your dumb ones—and will start edging into your personal space by leaning in as she pays attention and asks questions.
At the same time, a woman will often use signs to tell you that she’d rather you didn’t come talk to her at all. If you’re approaching a woman and she starts to turn her torso to face away from you or she steps back, she’s trying to send a signal that no, she doesn’t want to talk to you. When she starts to act fidgety—in that twitchy, “too much nervous energy building up” sort of way and she’s becoming increasingly curt as she talks to you, she’s wishing you would catch a hint already and realize that she’d prefer you walk away, but doesn’t necessarily want to cause a scene by telling you so directly.
When you start getting the “go away” signs from a woman, the best thing you can do is mercy kill the whole interaction. Make up a reason to leave, say “it was nice talking to you” and just move on to talk to somebody else… someone who’s been giving you the come-hither signs.
THE BETTER YOU CAN READ, THE MORE YOU WILL SUCCEED
Approaching women can be nerve-wracking; the feeling of uncertainty about whether she would be interested in getting to know you or not is enough to cause actual anxiety attacks in men. But if you can learn to read her signs, you will be better prepared to tell who is receptive to meeting you and who would rather be left alone. Learning to read the clues that women give guys is like a cheat code; once you know what you’re looking for, you can approach new, awesome people with confidence instead of crossing your fingers and hoping for the best. It takes practice; some of these signs are subtle and easy to miss while others can be misinterpreted if you aren’t careful. But once you learn her signs, you won’t have to worry about making the wrong move or overstaying your welcome.
Images courtesy of Shutterstock:
Kristen Stewart Photo – AP
About Harris O'Malley
Isn’t a lot of this unconscious or habitual? I know women who give a smile to just about everyone, just as an ingrained habit. One of the hardest things for many men to tell is the difference between common courtesy and more particular interest in you as an individual. I’m just thinking that our body language says a lot about us that may not really be conscious. Sometimes it may even create unintended consequences. It’s best to think of theses tips as guidelines for interpretation, not necessarily rules like if she does A that means she wants B.
Also, if she looks you up and down, it depends on the look on her face. She may be looking at you head to toe with a confused or disgusted expression. Once in a while she’s just wondering who dressed you this morning
wellokaythen,
I agree with what you’re saying. When talking with female strangers it can be very hard to tell what is flirting and what is curtesy.
However, I took this article to mean eyeballing somebody from across a room, as in a bar rather than looks from somebody you’re already engaged in conversation with.
As I learned more about women in my younger years I used to beat myself over the head over missed opportunities in which (in retrospect) women in bars or clubs were expressing interest. Those times I have mostly forgotten as they don’t seem very important now.
There is definitely a learning curve. I agree with the author: if a woman is locking eyes (particularly in a venue in which singles meet like a bar) she is interested.
Think of it this way: how many women on these boards have complained about men hounding them for the slightest miscommunication. Women’s priorities as the pursued sex is to abort or cancel as much unwanted attention as possible. They want to generate interest, but they don’t want to be approached by all those men interested–only by the ones that interest her.
Taking it into mind that locking eyes is going to bring a woman unwanted attention, then you can safely assume that if she is locking eyes with you that she therefore (very nearly) *must* be interested.
I see your point. You’re right, a lot depends on context and on reasonable expectations. If she makes eye contact because you’re making a presentation at a business meeting, that’s different from her making eye contact with you at a singles’ mingle. What are the most likely reasons she’s paying such attention to me, and where does “she’s attracted to me” fall on that list of possibilities?
I think we’d both agree that nonverbal cues are suggestive indicators, not absolute proof. If the cues look promising, keep an eye out for more.
“But, how can you say no? You MUST want to have sex with me! Your legs were pointed in my direction 71.2% of our date tonight!”
this premise is bullshit, any woman childish enough to rely on a bunch of ill defined motive cloaking gestures and symbols who then expects you to decipher their cryptic overtones is a 6 year old who doesn’t deserve your time. When you are a child, you cry, and your parents deal with your horrid communication skills cus your a baby. Then you grow up and you learn to ask for what you want like an adult. If a woman is too much of a toddler to approach another person and ask for what she wants like an adult then she isn’t adult enough to screw IMHO.
Hey grey, what Dr. Nerdlove describes here are not games and subtle signals that women have arbitrarily decided upon– these things are largely unconscious behaviors that most people instinctually engage in.
Yes, Jonathan G is right. These aren’t things people CHOOSE to do, they’re just very well-documented trends in behavior. If you, grey, want to ignore them and find a woman who will come right up to you and ignore any social customs or life-long ingrained behavior patters, that’s great. I wish you awesome luck. Maybe you met that woman and you’re happy. I’m so happy for you in that case.
But for the rest of the world, this is very helpful.
If the body language is all that, like ” very well-documented trends in behavior”, “social customs” and “life-long ingrained behavior patterns”.
Then how come that men (just as a weird coincidence)) has to be lectured about them?
Kinda contradictory, ain’t it?
Because men are too focused on women’s breasts to take a step back and look at the whole picture (which is needed to read non verbal bodily communication. It’s even under the FIRST TIP OF BODY LANGUAGE in this article. The author even points this out. Is it no wonder men are oblivious to most things about a woman when all men are concerned about it what pleases them?
You know that the gender binary is not actually a thing anymore, right?
The author, to the best of my knowledge, is also a man.
Hmm….so, if breasts would just give off more non-verbal cues men would pick up on the cues better? How poorly designed we creatures must be if we only look at a body part that doesn’t send off body language. I see a possible solution here — perhaps some instructions written in cleavage, or some sort of chest-level communication system?
sounds like grey is the child not having ever learned non-verbal communication. He’s a child who never grew into an adult with all the capabilities of an adult. A child needs something and speaks up. He speaks up for what he wants and ignores all other forms of communication because they actually require work. sounds childish to me.
and why would any sane women be forth coming in their intrest when they know the possible outcomes are A) she’s desperate and pathetic for pursuing a man and therefore undesirable B) she’s a slut for making it easy by pursuing a man or C) she’s a tease for showing interest and not following through by not having sex with the man.
grey:
“any woman childish enough to rely on a bunch of ill defined motive cloaking gestures and symbols who then expects you to decipher their cryptic overtones is a 6 year old who doesn’t deserve your time.
While I agree partially with your statement (if somebody is not willing to communicate clearly and unambiguously with you, they are likely too much trouble to handle), I have to say that the sentence above is unfair to 6 year olds.
Grey:
I think you’re confusing being coy with a woman trying to maintain her dignity by negating the possibility of approaching a guy and getting shot down.
If a woman approaches she is often viewed as a slut (particularly by other women who will envy the woman her ability to approach men as the observing women won’t have the guts to add that to their dating arsenal). If she gets turned down she is now a loser slut.
I will agree that even the 2nd option (women preserving their dignity by never directly approaching) is highly unfair. It puts the potential loss of dignity all on the shoulders of men.
However, I don’t see it as being particularly malicious or cruel, but rather that women can’t take being shot down. Women value their beauty so much more than men, that to be shot down essentially destroys all of her value. This isn’t malicious, but self protective.
women don’t so much value their beauty as much as they are aware of the value put on them by men for their beauty.
and men aren’t called sluts for being interested in a woman. Men aren’t also called prude bitches when they show interest in a person but not take it further for whatever reason.
Women can take being shot down, but most women aren’t shot down with the word “no”, the words they hear are slut, whore, prude, bitch. Women can be told no and be fine. Women who are demeaned and belittled and talked down to because they dare show direct verbal interest.
May I suggest that if that is your experience with men, that it says more about your choices of men to interact with than it does about men in general?
I think I have amazing taste in men (my exes and my husband are evidence), but I’ve had this happen to me too many times to count. Guys are MEAN sometimes, really mean. You go to a guy and smile and flirt and you might be met with non-verbal communication of no, or you might be met with him turning to his friend and saying, “What slut” or “look at this slut” or “who is this whore?” no matter what you’re wearing.
Of course not all guys do this, not even the majority, but it happens. And those guys are assholes, just like the women who call guys they don’t like “Creeps” – they aren’t ALL guys or ALL girls, but don’t pretend like there are no consequences to women approaching men. I still think women should approach/ask out guys a lot more and advocate for that all the time. But there are risks to it.
Right, some men (and women) react derisively when approached by somebody they don’t find desirable. So if your personal experience is that all men (or women) react that way, maybe you’re profoundly unlucky, or perhaps there’s something biased about how you select your statistical sample.
In the words of Homer Simpson, “Why do things that happen to stupid people keep happening to me?!”
“I think I have amazing taste in men (my exes and my husband are evidence)”
Yeah, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It is also very transitory.
just passing:
Women are not virgin shamed, or creep shamed (because if women were saddled with the responsibility for initiating, how many would linger on the sidelines staring like a good chunk of shy men building up the nerve to initiate who are then shamed and called “creepy”).
The roles are simply reversed. Since men are seen as having agency and women are not, men are shamed for *not* having the bravery to embrace that agency (“not a real man”), whereas women are shamed for having the temerity to step outside the safe zone and exert her agency. They are just flipsides. The shaming of men can be and is just as deteriorating to ones self esteem as it is for women.
Also, women know men value them for their looks, but I would expect women to internalize this message as much as men internalize the societal message that men who have more material wealth are a better class of women. Are you telling me that attractive women don’t look down on less attractive women the way business men look down on garbage men?
So, when I say women value themselves for their looks, I mean precisely that.
Most women I have met have internalized the societal message that they are valued for their bodies just as men have internalized the message that they are valued for their provisioning ability for women–hence the reason for a large increase in male suicides following the mancession.
Wow, an article by Dr. Nerdlove that doesn’t actually have me up in arms!
When he actually sticks to just plain advice, without feeling the need to insert condescension, he makes some excellent points.
Although, that being said, I still find it curious that Nerdlove and many others within the feminist camp (even if Nerdlove isn’t really a feminist and more of a PUA in disguise, as commenters like Marcus have suggested, he’s still supported by feminists) continue to support the idea that “men must initiate” with regards to dating.
I mean, I thought feminism was supposed to be about challenging traditional gender norms. And yet in many of his previous articles, and in this one, albeit with no condescension, Nerdlove supports the idea that men must do the initiating. If they don’t, there’s something wrong with them, whereas if women don’t initiate/pursue, then that’s just fine.
At least for me, it’s stuff like this that provides ammunition to the MRA claim that feminists want to have it both ways. On the one hand, they’re totally equal, but men still must initiate and take all the risks in dating.
In other words, they want to abolish what they see as the oppressive gender norms of the past, and yet still retain the benefits of chivalrous treatment, among other things.
At some point, something has to give. If feminists want to be totally equal, they should mean it, and perhaps pursue and ask out more. And a few anecdotes notwithstanding, I don’t see that happening.
I admit, I don’t ask guys out. It has never seemed worth it to me, because I assume if a guy doesn’t ask me out, he probably isn’t attracted to me. I’ve never been attractive enough to have tons of guys pining after me from afar. That just doesn’t happen. So, asking men out, who feel no attraction for me, would just waste everyone’s time — mine and theirs, and create awkwardness and negative feelings. It might give me a reputation for being desperate and turn off guys who might otherwise be attracted to me. It’s not that I fear rejection, I just don’t see how asking men out would benefit me, or them!
My theory is that guys would like hot women to ask them out, but they would not be too thrilled to be pursued by plain or unattractive women.
My theory is that guys would like hot women to ask them out, but they would not be too thrilled to be pursued by plain or unattractive women.
Yeah, that pretty much nails it.
I can understand why women who do not feel physically attractive or who are not considered attractive would think twice about asking men out. I’m sure unattractive men feel the same way. Or as the legendary George Costanza would say, “bald men with no jobs and no money who live with their parents don’t approach strange women.”
However, I still don’t think that accounts for why attractive girls don’t do more to initiate romance.
It should be obvious — because they don’t have to. They have tons of guys chasing after them. They don’t need to seek out anyone else. They probably don’t have TIME to pursue anyone!
Agree.
Just as most “hot” and good looking, tall, dark, handsome and square jawed men have women throwing themselves at them.
The BIG difference is the handsome guy gets an overabundance of women to sleep with while an overabundance of men get zippy!
What I could never figure out about us men is just why do so many go for these “hot” women. Most of them have had lots of sex partners. A lot of high mileage. Why would you want to be with such a woman?
To each his own. I have zero interest in women like that. Hence, I prefer the “plain Jane” with a nice rear and brains.
I had a hot woman ask me out! It’s true they have guys chasing after them, but that doesn’t mean they’re interested in any of them. She liked me so she asked me to hang out. We ended up dating for 3 years
Right, beautiful women are essentially in the position of screening lovers like a person would use their answering machine to screen calls.
Sarah is right. And attractive women DO initiate quite often. As I’ve said in nearly all of these “feminists can’t have it both ways” repetitive conversations, I asked my husband out, I asked my boyfriend before that out… I have no shame on that. But I’m not your average bird. If some guy called me a slut or a bitch because I was the pursuer (it’s happened, both) I just think “go fuck yourself”. They like the idea of a girl asking them out if it’s the RIGHT girl, and if she wants to simply go have sex. But if she wants a real relationship, it’s all confusing and threatening to some guys. Luckily for me, my husband liked that I was the initiator so that worked out great and I neither know nor care where any guy who ever rejected me is today.
And I don’t think there’s this mob of feminists going around saying “We want dating equality! But you have to ask us out, we won’t initiate!” Like, show me those women. Show me one single feminist site or document or video or anything you can find where they say that. I have asked this before and gotten NOTHING from any of those who have claimed this.
One time someone goes, “I mean that most women are feminists, and most women won’t ask guys out” but that is a moronic equivocation. No, I don’t think most women say “I am a feminist” and no, I don’t think most women are opposed to asking guys out or at the very least approaching them.
But I’d be happy to eat crow if someone could find me documentation of the feminists who refuse to initiate conversation or ask out a guy.
Those jerks are screwing it up for the rest of us. I love it when women ask me out. I’m shy and it’s terrifying to me to do it.
And yeah, I’ve never seen feminists who want it both ways. If anything it’s been the opposite. They WANT to deconstruct traditional gender roles. That’s pretty much the point of feminism.
But I’d be happy to eat crow if someone could find me documentation of the feminists who refuse to initiate conversation or ask out a guy.
Well, I think Dr. Nerdlove’s various articles, particularly the “Who Has the Power in Dating?” one (in which Nerdlove tells men frustrated over the “men have to initiate” dynamic that they are full of it and simply need to man up and make themselves more attractive) and the approval they have received from various feminists (including everyone’s favorite Amanda Marcotte), indicates something.
Or former GMP author Hugo Schwyzer’s article on how men should pay on dates.
Sure, perhaps they’re not saying that it’s a great dynamic, but they don’t seem too eager to do away with old dating norms anytime soon.
Sure, perhaps they’re not saying that it’s a great dynamic, but they don’t seem too eager to do away with old dating norms anytime soon.
And I damn sure don’t see the fan base of said feminists chomping at the bit to challenging those ideas either.
Well, do you see all the feminists in the world in their daily routines as they move about and engage socially and perhaps struggle with norms they’ve been brought up with for say 15-30 years? Do you believe social conditioning is real or not real? Do you believe that breaking that conditioning is easy or hard? Do you think it takes a short period (1 year) or a long period (several generations) to make the total shift?
When women on this site, who are feminists, tell you things like “I have asked out more of the men then have asked me out.” or “we got engaged standing up together with no rings” or “we walked each other down the aisle” or “I’ve initiated romantic encounters more”….do you believe them or do you doubt them?
Shifting social patterns takes time. It is often an uncomfortable process for both genders. I see it happening all around me though and have since I was old enough to notice my older cousins dating (and asking boys out) in the 70′s.
I think that all people need to initiate if they want something. They need to learn how to do it in respectful ways, and I’m pretty sure that if both genders work on respectful assertiveness, graceful acceptance or denial of said “ask” and yeah, being observant about own attractiveness (which does include physical qualities but is certainly not limited to that and more often includes attitude and personality and interests) then I think everyone would benefit.
I see feminists challenging those ideas and that’s part of why I found feminism interesting to begin with waaaaaay some 25 years ago.
Ingrained social reactions and norms take time to change and it takes individual work to own your own stuff, it does. There are probably lots of feminists who have completed the “owning the shit” process and lots who haven’t.
Well, do you see all the feminists in the world in their daily routines as they move about and engage socially and perhaps struggle with norms they’ve been brought up with for say 15-30 years? Do you believe social conditioning is real or not real?
Okay, I get what your saying.
Still, if a woman is going to consciously identify herself as a feminist, then she of all people should know better than to go along with those norms.
I mean, if the social conditioning of our highly patriarchal culture (to hear the feminists tell it) didn’t stop her from becoming a feminist, then her defiance of those norms shouldn’t stop at the realm of dating.
No, they shouldn’t. But it isn’t an immediate “flip” of a switch and everything is different and easy. In fact, perhaps the path to becoming a feminist took time. Maybe it took years.
Perhaps who she is in terms of her engrained response one year is hugely different the next. Now that doesn’t do that guy who tried to date her the first year much good, I get that. But if we are to be truly compassionate with how difficult change can be I think it’s worth noting that fighting social norms can be hard work, people can fail at it, but people can keep trying.
Just like men who decide that come hell or high water they aren’t gonna hide emotions or that they’ll initiate less or etc. That shift can be uncomfortable and it may indeed take time.
I’m an entirely different person (and feminist) in how I deal with those norms and things at 43 than I was at 23 or 17. And I suspect I’ll continue to shift (and teach and model new norms for my own boys) as I age.
It’s not like things can turn on a dime.
Yeah, women posting on this site do say they ask guys out. But is that a widespread practice beyond the college towns and the downtown hipster enclaves? How often do most guys experience it or personally know of someone else who has experienced it? Do YOU believe it when guys post here that they haven’t been approached by a woman?
Yeah, it takes time(years) for social patterns to shift, but that’s like sticking an apple seed in the ground and telling the hungry person “We’ll have apples in five years”.
But do you want that person planting the apple seeds to wave his magic wand to feed the hungry man?
We can only do what we can do. Doesn’t pay to bemoan the apple or the guy who planted them in the process. At least he planted you a damn tree.
And it’s great that you do what you. Just don’t plant a seed and pretend it was a whole damn forest.
So, I’m one of those women who does initiate, like Julie and Joanna. BUT….I tend to do it with friends and people I know in some context (school, work, projects, friends of friends, online, talked to them around town). Why? Well, i can’t be interested in a guy based on just a first look. If I see a guy in a coffee shop or bar, I simply have no interest no matter how handsome he is because I know nothing about him. I realize that meeting them is a way to know people, but it saves me time and energy to have some context and know what he’s about. That tends to come from the things I listed above. On top of that, it’s more exciting emotionally. If a guy is just standing around in a bar, it does nothing for me. If that guy approaches me, I tend to be *slightly* more interested because his approach usually tells me at least *something* about him. At the same time, I get how awkward initiation can be. The guys I tend to be attracted to aren’t approachers (not sure that that’s a word, but you get the drift). They’re usually shy, which sucks for me. It’s taken a lot of guts, preparation, and often, liquid courage for me to be able to make the first move. And I’m on the ‘hot’ end of the spectrum (for now).
I think a lot of women don’t see the upside of approaching first in a stranger situation. You get rejected, you feel worthless and ugly (and for most women, feeling desired and pretty is very important). You get accepted, but chances are, you won’t have chemistry with the guy because you know nothing about him.
And of course, there is the desperation/slut/being desired is the most important thing for a woman stigma. I had a male friend tell me point blank that he was weary of women who approached first (I wasn’t interested in him romantically, we were just having a discussion about it). He couldn’t really explain why.
@Joanna Schroder:
We can only do what we can do. Doesn’t pay to bemoan the apple or the guy who planted them in the process. At least he planted you a damn tree.
Agreed.
But also, it doesn’t pay to bemoan the hungry man to try and pick his apples somewhere else on an already fullgrown tree, instead of waiting for yours to grow up and bear fruit.
Well, do you see all the feminists in the world in their daily routines as they move about and engage socially and perhaps struggle with norms they’ve been brought up with for say 15-30 years?
No but I see the ones that no problem stopping to tell me I need to police “my fellow men” on behalf of women and then magically have nothing to say when it comes to policing “their fellow women”.
Do you believe social conditioning is real or not real?
Yeah.
Do you believe that breaking that conditioning is easy or hard?
It would vary depending on the conditioning in question.
Do you think it takes a short period (1 year) or a long period (several generations) to make the total shift?
Varies.
When women on this site, who are feminists, tell you things like “I have asked out more of the men then have asked me out.” or “we got engaged standing up together with no rings” or “we walked each other down the aisle” or “I’ve initiated romantic encounters more”….do you believe them or do you doubt them?
I believe them for the most part. I’m starting to wonder if the feminists and women on this site believe similar things that men tell them.
Shifting social patterns takes time. It is often an uncomfortable process for both genders. I see it happening all around me though and have since I was old enough to notice my older cousins dating (and asking boys out) in the 70′s.
Yes I’ll agree it’s a hard process for both genders. But if that’s the case then why the insistence on one side telling the other that they don’t have it “as bad” or letting their own side get away with stuff they would scream the bloodiest of murder over if the other side did it to them?
I think that all people need to initiate if they want something. They need to learn how to do it in respectful ways, and I’m pretty sure that if both genders work on respectful assertiveness, graceful acceptance or denial of said “ask” and yeah, being observant about own attractiveness (which does include physical qualities but is certainly not limited to that and more often includes attitude and personality and interests) then I think everyone would benefit.
Agreed.
I see feminists challenging those ideas and that’s part of why I found feminism interesting to begin with waaaaaay some 25 years ago.
It’s nice that you found what you found when you went looking. I wasn’t so lucky.
Ingrained social reactions and norms take time to change and it takes individual work to own your own stuff, it does. There are probably lots of feminists who have completed the “owning the shit” process and lots who haven’t.
Oh I’m sure there are and more than likely are probably not going to be the ones I’ve been talking about in terms of wanting men to police their own while giving women (or feminists) an infinite free pass on bad behavior.
A lot of guys are just shy. Just because we don’t ask you doesn’t mean we’re not interested. I mean, you don’t ask guys out, but that doesn’t mean you’re not interested in them. Where did you get that idea?
It can be very intimidating to put yourself out there like that, even if you’re a guy.
I know they aren’t interested because I’m not attractive enough to intimidate anyone!
seriously, I’m not. The world is completely different for average/plain women, believe me. Hot women know that every guy is probably attracted to them, I know that most guys AREN’T attracted to me. That’s just how it is. I deal with it. For me, asking men out wouldn’t get me anywhere. Whenever I’ve tried to initiate anything, it’s just been awkward and made the man uncomfortable. Men do NOT like getting attention from women who aren’t “hot.” They fantasize about a world where hot women ask them out, they aren’t fantasizing about a world where ordinary women ask them out.
We believe you, because that world is just the same for average men, in the following respects:
As an average guy, I know that most women aren’t attracted to me. That is just how it is, and I deal with it.
For me, asking women out hardly ever gets me anywhere.
Check…
…and ditto on the inverse.
Seriously, average men have to operate on the “law of large numbers”: We have to ask out a LOT of women to get a positive response. You can say, “it just doesn’t work,” but you just have to repeat it ad nauseum. Anything else is self-defeating claptrap.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but the thing is, I think that men and women are very different in some ways, and especially in this respect: Women will often develop attraction to a man over time, by getting to know him. Men, on the other hand (at least in my experience) don’t develop an attraction for women by getting to know her UNLESS they are already physically attracted to her. If they are already attracted, then getting to know her may increase their interest, it’s true. But as a woman, I can’t go around asking guys out and thinking that someone who feels ZERO attraction to me will suddenly develop greater attraction because of my wit or my wonderful personality on a date. He looks at me, he likes what he sees, or he doesn’t. End of story.
I agree that men have to ask out a lot of women to get any success, and it may be even more important for a man who is less attractive to ask out a lot of women because, simply by meeting women and getting to know them, some of those women will develop a liking for him, even if they felt no interest initially.
It doesn’t work the same way for women, however. As soon as a guy looks at me, he has already decided if he would be willing to date me or not. I have asked male friends of mine about this, and they have all agreed it is true. They decide pretty much instantly if a woman is on or off their list, before she ever says a word to them. It’s all physical. I’m not saying that personality doesn’t count, but it only counts AFTER the guy is already attracted physically.
If 99% of the guys who have NOT asked me out are not attracted to me in the first place, pursuing them will be completely useless because I don’t have a prayer of “winning them over.” Men, on the other hand, can and do “woo” women — in fact, pretty much everything taught in PUA schools is focused on winning women over.
A PUA school for women would be completely different. It would be all about losing weight, how to wear hot clothes, and options for cosmetic surgery. In fact I guess we already have a place like that — it’s called the mall. ha ha.
“Men, on the other hand (at least in my experience) don’t develop an attraction for women by getting to know her UNLESS they are already physically attracted to her”
The question is, how many women does the condition “UNLESS they are already physically attracted to her” sort out. In my experience up to the age of forty at least, the average guy finds like 3 in 4 women physically attractive.
Haha, thanks for my first big laugh of the day! It’s not that your argument is ridiculous — not at all — I just find it so amusing because I’ve heard exactly the same thing about women. Lots of dating advice gurus say that women instantly size up a guy and put him into either the “bang-able” or the “not bang-able” category, and there’s nothing will change it. I’ve heard it from male friends, and I’ve had it confirmed by female friends.
So, for the purposes of discussion, if we stipulate that it’s true for both men and women that they have to find a person physically attractive before they’ll consider dating that person, that still leaves open the possibility that “bang-able” and “date-able” are two related-but-different categories. Just because a guy finds you “bang-able” doesn’t mean he’s immediately and inevitably going to ask you out. Guys refrain from approaching women all the time for myriad reasons. And, approaching him might bump up your points in the “date-able” category.
And, on top of that, I gave a semester-final presentation for a class a few years ago on just this topic, so I dug up a bunch of studies that convincingly showed that yes, indeed, other people’s perception of your physical attractiveness is absolutely influenced by whether you are happy, friendly, hard-working, et cetera. The effect is quite remarkable when you see it in action.
What you are expressing is valid, But i just want to point out that being attractive is much more than the physical. Many men, me included, are attracts to women of substance with confidence regardless of their physical appearance, intellectually stimulating, kind.
And may I interject that YES “hot” women have a head start in getting a mans attention. So “plain” women have to try a little harder. Oftentimes physically attractive women are boring and lacking in other areas, excessive vanity is ugly. But do you really want the man who’s going to fantasize about “hot” women and have no depth themselves. And may I ask, were you not doing the same thing choosing a hot guy to ask out, ignoring the plain men?
Sarah, I have to disagree. Just because the guy isn’t taking the first step does not mean that all attempts would be futile and waste of time.
After couple of months of giving hints and more hints (like in the above article), the guy I had the hots for did not take action. I had to ask him for the sake of my sanity (maybe I’m exaggerating, but it was nerve wrecking). He said no.
I felt like crap for three days and then went to him and asked “why not?”. It appeared that he was attracted to me, but was initially shocked when I asked him out and didn’t know what to
do. He also had worries that I might be seeking a very adult and serious relationship (we are young). Long story short, after thinking about his next move for a couple of days he
said yes. We’ve been together for almost three years now and we are very happy together.
There are plenty of awesome people out there who are shy, aren’t confident in their looks or “value” in the dating scene or are just blind to hints. We are all imperfect. That’s why it is very important to be active in pursuit of relationships and to be honest and direct, and that responsibility belongs to *everyone*, good looking or not (I’m pretty plain myself, if you ever
wonder). I’ve learned my lesson, it’s about time other young women will too.
You may be “plain” but you mention that he was attracted to you. That makes all the difference!
Sarah, maybe someone finds you attractive without you knowing it. Actually, it’s inevitable. Still, finding someone attractive doesn’t always grant people the superpower to overcome their fear of public humiliation and rejection. Combine that with the cultural expectation of men doing the first step and being all hunter and macho and crap, and approaching a potential date can seem overpowering. It can really take the unnecessary tension off if women become more active. Politeness also helps (I bet this all would be so much more easier without all jackasses who snicker, cuss or shout at you for asking them out).
Of course, I’m not a doctor or a professor, this is barely an opinion based on observations and several conversation on the topic. I just think this would be good for women too. Not many of us really enjoy waiting and hoping The Guy notices us.
Well honestly there is no reason a man would be intimidated about approaching me. Men talk about being afraid to approach attractive women, i get that. I’ve never heard a guy say he’s intimidated by unattractive women, in fact most guys just ignore unattractive women. So in my experience, if a man hasn’t approached me, it’s likely because he’s not interested and is simply ignoring me. For attractive women, the calculus is completely different. I’d agree that if attractive women aren’t finding guys they like, they should try approaching the guys they do like, because chances are they will get a good response. For an unattractive woman, I don’t see that it would pay off.
Sarah, some people are shy, anxious even about approaching anyone. Your attractiveness level may have nothing to do with it. You seem fixated on believing in your own unattractiveness. I’ve never seen you, but you have a partner as you’ve mentioned, and I’m assuming you believe this person finds you attractive. How do you square that?
Well honestly there is no reason a man would be intimidated about approaching me.
You sure about that?
Men talk about being afraid to approach attractive women, i get that. I’ve never heard a guy say he’s intimidated by unattractive women, in fact most guys just ignore unattractive women.
Ignoring the second part of your sentence (which is only partially true at best and straight wrong at worst) what you aren’t accounting for is different guys have different tastes in attraction.
So in my experience, if a man hasn’t approached me, it’s likely because he’s not interested and is simply ignoring me.
That doesn’t quite add up though. What makes you so sure that there are no guys that didn’t approach you because they found you attractive but were too intimidated to approach?
You seem to be jumping from “Guys don’t approach me….” to “….because they don’t find me attractive.”
I’d agree that if attractive women aren’t finding guys they like, they should try approaching the guys they do like, because chances are they will get a good response.
Or said attractive women would get inadvertently turned down because the guys they are approaching are too intimidated to make the second move.
For an unattractive woman, I don’t see that it would pay off.
It would pay off in ways similar to the attractive women you mention above. If a woman approaches a guy she runs the changes of making a connection (even if it’s not a long lasting connection), getting turned down (for reasons that may not have to do with her attractiveness), and who knows what other possibilities.
A woman’s attractiveness would alter those chances but one must bear in mind that attractiveness isn’t solely decided on whether the woman in question fits the conventions of attractiveness. It’s also at least partially decided by the people she approaches.
You say that you are unattractive. So let’s say you approach me and I respond favorably. What does that say about you unattractiveness?
Hey Bay Area guy.
I agree with your points. Especially about the last article “do women really have all the dating power?”
I also agree that the culture of male approaching is very unfair to men, especially men like I used to be: shy uninitiating men (of which there is a huge % of all men–I would say that at least half of men have some fear of initiating, and maybe a quarter have it bad enough for it be a *substantial* barrier to finding companionship).
However, I’m starting to come full circle in this. Women are valued very much on their looks. For a woman to get rejected must be just incredibly soul crushing.
As I told Grey, I don’t think this is anything malicious that women do, it’s more about the self-preservation of their self-esteem.
However, I do believe that women (even fairly average) women being persistently approached makes them feel like hot shit. If I were to have this constant validation “on tap” that I was hot shit, I am sure that I would quickly degrade into a shitty person.
I think this is where women’s actions do get malicious. When rebuffing an approaching male, many women feel the need to insult them. This idea that their looks make them a superior class of person. This idea that they are hot shit, and therefore deserve somebody *much better* than the male equivalent of themselves (in status, artistic ability, leadership, ambition, wealth, intelligence etc..).
I think the unfair dynamic that men approach *can lead to* malicious behavior in a great deal of women, but I don’t think the dynamic itself is malicious on women’s part.
@ John D
However, I’m starting to come full circle in this. Women are valued very much on their looks. For a woman to get rejected must be just incredibly soul crushing.
Agreed. I’ve never said that things are easy for unattractive women. For them it’s not even a matter of being rejected. It’s more of a matter of being invisible.
However, all of that being said, I still maintain my position that women have it infinitely easier in dating than men, provided they are at least somewhat physically attractive. As a woman, all you have to do is be at least somewhat physically attractive and show up, and you are almost guaranteed to get results. It’s really that simple. You have much more leeway with regards to personality flaws.
However, if you’re a guy, even a good looking one, you have to be socially graceful, confident, and you are judged by many other measures.
Granted, some women might cry foul and say, “well, I don’t consider sitting back passively waiting to be approached a sign of power,” or “well, we’re not getting approached by the guys we want .”
But still, I think the comparison to the employer/employee relationship made on the “dating power” thread is spot-on. Sure, the employer might not have the ideal prospective employees applying for the job. And they may not get to really seek out employees (though there is recruiting, I suppose). But still, ultimately, it’s the employee who has to subject himself to the approval of the employer, and the employer has the ultimate veto power.
Women exercise a similar veto power in dating.
Oh don’t get me wrong.
I definitely think it’s very very unfair. I was a good looking geek in my youth and later in life when tumbling over memories of interactions with women, I had blown past a number of signals from women.
I agree that women’s refusal to put themselves out there puts things into an unequal light. I would even go so far as to call it a female privilege. I’m just stating that it isn’t done maliciously. I think it really is a self-preservation instinct.
When 98% of women’s value comes from being attractive, then they simply are not going to take the risk of putting themselves into the vulnerable position of being told (by a guy who by approaching the woman is tacitly saying that man’s approval matters to the woman) that they are not attractive.
It’s just not going to happen.
men are perfectly free to CHOOSE not to pursue someone they’re interested in in hopes of that person pursuing them.
But if they are interested enough in someone to Pursue them (they weren’t forced) isn’t that their choice?
yeah men are perfectly able to refuse to initiate–if they’re willing to forego any chance of companionship.
While I appreciate the less ideological and more practical Nerdlove shows here compared to his last columns, I still don’t like the advice for two reasons: It tells only how to approach certain women and the advice is only applicable for certain men.
“Wouldn’t it be so much easier if women would let us know whether or not they were interested in us or whether they like us?
Turns out… they do. It’s just that most men aren’t picking up on it.”
This is really a weird view of communication, usually communication is a collaborative effort, so the one who is saying something should choose a language, which the other party understands. When I use a language that somebody can’t understand, I can’t say i am really communicating with him.
“Many women prefer to provide subtle signs of interest or disinterest rather than risk the potential of humiliating themselves by being direct.”
This low view of women is so sad. Nerdlove says, that you can not expect a woman to clearly speak her mind, like an adult would. But this sentence is important for another reason: If body language was clear and unambiguous and commonly understood, then women ẃho are afraid of humiliation wouldn’t really gain anything by using body language instead of the usual language.
“Being able to read people’s signs is a critical aspect of dating.”
Obviously not for everybody, I know a bunch of people who are really bad at reading people’s signs and they still manage to date and form loving relationships. It just takes the willingness to look for a common channel of communication.
“On the other hand: is she actively avoiding eye-contact? Does she seem to look away as soon as she notices you looking, but doesn’t look back? She doesn’t want to talk to you.”
This is not generally true. Shy women with low confidence might find eye contact very scary and try to avoid looking at you, so they don’t ‘stare’. Furthermore not every guy is comfortable with prolonged eye contact with a woman he is attracted to.
Another problem with the ‘look’ game lies with the guy. When a woman sees a guy from afar, all she sees is his physical appearance. Now imagine a bar with some women and some men. The women will mostly look interested at those guys who look more attractive. If the men in the bar only approach if they have caught an interested look, only the guys who look more attractive will approach. As the looks are only a small part of a persona, such an approach will not lead to desired results for many of the men and women.
“On the other hand, a woman with closed body language—pointing herself away from you, crossing her arms across her chest, hunching in or taking up less space—is trying to tell you that she’s closed off to you.
This advice is misleading, not every person is willing to escalate fast to physical contact and this body language might well say exactly that. It doesn’t mean though that the person is not interested in you and wouldn’t consider physical intimacy with you at a later point.
“If you’re approaching a woman and she starts to turn her torso to face away from you or she steps back, she’s trying to send a signal that no, she doesn’t want to talk to you.”
Or she would like to talk to you, but keep a bigger physical distance. Again Nerdlove generalises incorrectly.
“When she starts to act fidgety—in that twitchy, “too much nervous energy building up” sort of way and she’s becoming increasingly curt as she talks to you, she’s wishing you would catch a hint already and realize that she’d prefer you walk away,…”
Or there is another unrelated reason for her restlessness, the approaching guy is not necessarily her whole world (yet).
“…but doesn’t necessarily want to cause a scene by telling you so directly.”
“When you start getting the “go away” signs from a woman, the best thing you can do is mercy kill the whole interaction. Make up a reason to leave…”
Or you could both behave like reasonable and honest people.
would guys prefer it if a woman says, “I’m not interested, go away now?” That would be harsh. I think a lot of women just hope that the guy will pick up on her signals of disinterest. Unfortunately it is true that many guys are bad at reading those signals.
“would guys prefer it if a woman says, “I’m not interested, go away now?”
Yes.
This wording would be indeed considered harsh, but this is because of the “go away now”. Usually when making a request, people are expected to show the other person some respect (you can’t give them orders) by using words like “please”, or formulations like “would you mind…”.
You may not realize that there are many, many men whom, if you said “I’m not interested, go away now” would freak the Fuck out and start calling you names and harassing you? It’s happened to me at LEAST twice. ALWAYS try subtle communication first. Then, if he doesn’t get it, make up a lie and move on (i.e. “Oh, we need to go look for our other friends who are meeting us. Nice talking to you, have a good night!”), and if he doesn’t get that then you tell him nicely, “You seem like a nice guy, but I’m not interested” and then get ready for him to be pissed off.
Not all guys are going to do this. But a LOT are.
women are always aware of the consequences of potentially “harming” the male ego. They will be made to pay
“You may not realize that there are many, many men whom, if you said “I’m not interested, go away now” would freak the Fuck out and start calling you names and harassing you?”
Most men would not. Some men are agressive and abusive, we all have to deal with them. In my experience it is not very difficult to spot such types.
The sentence “I’m not interested, go away now”, has the problem of indicating disrespect. Because usually we don’t tell strangers what to do, we ask them. For example when you ride a train and somebody to step aside so you can get pass them, you don’t say: “Step aside now”,, you say something like :”Would you please step aside?” . If you are impolite like in the first example, people will be upset and with good reason, as sharing the public space requires manners. Of course being upset doesn’t mean, one has the right to be abusive.
It is very intersting why Sarah chose such an impolite rejection, instead of a polite one as her example. It reminds me of the problem that some people, don’t treat everybody with respect, just the people that can be useful to them or those who have some leverage. For example if a woman rejects a politely approaching guy and shows contempt or even disgust with her body language, then she has insulted him. The thing about rejecting guys is, you can be blunt, you can be harsh, but you should not be disrespectful, you shouldn’t attack their dignity.
“ALWAYS try subtle communication first.”
No, I will not.
“Then, if he doesn’t get it, make up a lie and move on”
When people realise that they are being lied to, they get angry, and it is difficult to lie. There seem to be a fundamental philosophical difference. I think you should be honest, not as a tactic, but because it is the right thing to do, your approach to morals seems more tactical.
““You seem like a nice guy, but I’m not interested” and then get ready for him to be pissed off.
Not all guys are going to do this. But a LOT are.
Well I think most are not, but in absence of solid evidence, I will not be able to convince you. Now you realise that by getting ready for him to be pissed off, your body language will be likely signalising him, that he has something to be pissed off about? As I see it youŕ approach resorts to disrespect and hostility, before you know if the guy is disrespectful or hostile, by this you make him reacting angry more likely. In my experience as a guy, when you want to avoid an altercation with another guy it is important to be respectful (not submissive) and not aggressive as long as possible.
Some guys think that if they keep coming on strong then they will be able to win you over…
I was at an alumni event with my husband and close friends and this fellow alumnus just kept coming closer and closer to me as we were talking in a group …all the while, he is talking about commodities and his wife and his 4 wonderful kids, and etc. ….I felt like my space was getting invaded and that he was getting too hand-sy, so I suddenly turned to another fellow alumnus and introduced myself and joined in on that conversation….Meanwhile, my close friend could see how disappointed the hand-sy guy was that my attention was directed elsewhere (“I think that guy has the hots for you!”)….
Some guys don’t get subtle hints or observe casual cocktail protocol…I’m talking to make conversation and somehow he thinks I am flirting with him….if I was a guy saying the same things, the dynamic would be so different…Now I am always on my guard and I luckily have my husband and friends around me to check people on their inappropriate behavior….sometimes I think men don’t see me as a married professional woman with ideas and viewpoints of her own…to them, perhaps I am just some hot chick-y that they feel the need to try to pick up (Wrong!)
Some guys think that if they keep coming on strong then they will be able to win you over…
Ah yes, the hard sell. Annoying from professional salespeople and annoying from potential admirers.
I’m often worried that I come across as flirting because I make a lot of jokes, especially when I’m nervous (and I’m a tad shy so I’m usually at least a little nervous in social situations). I’ve only recently become aware of how often I use humor to diffuse tension, whether it’s a tense situation or my own nervousness or whatever. But I’ve been doing it for years – I joke so people will not see me as a threat, so they’ll like me and think I’m clever and see how nice and smart and funny of a person I am. Twist that the wrong way and it can sound an awful lot like flirting. So if I notice I’m doing the nervous-joking (which I don’t see as a bad thing by itself, it’s a coping mechanism and harms no one), I try to check my body language and tone to make sure I’m not giving off any OTHER flirtatious signals, like touching the person I’m joking with or leaning in towards them or speaking with a suggestive tone of voice, or, for that matter, telling jokes with sexual innuendo.
I’ve also noticed that, in the past, I’ve been sort of a magnet for guys with low self-esteem because I give awesome pep talks.
I’ve had male friends start to develop feelings for me after I’ve tried to give them friendly support and kind words to help them feel better about themselves. I’ve definitely learned to dial it down a little and not just jump in headfirst with my urge to help when a buddy starts getting down on himself.
” I’ve had male friends start to develop feelings for me after I’ve tried to give them friendly support and kind words to help them feel better about themselves.
While I understand this puts you in a tough spot, isn’t this a good thing in general. Isn’t it encouraging that kindness is highly valued in potential romantic prospects?
Yes.
I really think most men would rather a woman politely say, “You know, you seem like a pretty nice soul. But, I am not feeling you…..” or something along those lines.
Do it the same way you women friend zone guys…It does not have to be disrespectful.
@Sarah:
would guys prefer it if a woman says, “I’m not interested, go away now?”
No! I’d much prefer a woman says “i think you’re an interesting guy. Can i see you again?”…
@Alberich…
“This is really a weird view of communication, usually communication is a collaborative effort, so the one who is saying something should choose a language, which the other party understands. When I use a language that somebody can’t understand, I can’t say i am really communicating with him.”
Most communication is non-verbal. What you are talking about is verbal conversation. Conversation is a form of communication. However, it is just that. Just as a wink or a nod is communication though unspoken.
So, I must disagree.
So, when women send non-verbal signals which 80% of men ‘don’t get’, are the women purposefully not communicating with that 80%, or are they just employing a very ineffective set of signals?
it’s not that 80% of men don’t get it. it’s that 80% of COMMUNICATION is nonverbal.(and men don’t want to work at things. and you have to PAY ATTENTION to non verbal communication unlike verbal where you have to hear words and interpret-it’s less work for them.
But Men communicate this way too. And women generally read that nonverbal communication better than men.
Nerdlove’s statement was “….Most men just aren’t picking up on it.” I guess the 80% figure did come from a different sentence.
Are you saying that because women “generally read non0verbal communication better than men”, they assume that men will pick up those signals as well as they themselves do?
I think your claim that “men don’t want to work at things” is just mistaken. Men devote huge amounts of time, effort and money to the process of (trying) to meet women. If it was only a matter of picking up those non-verbal signals, most men would be doing it without the help of BSers like Nerdlove. The fact the ‘most’ men don’t pick up on them probably indicates some kind of cultural ‘interference’ on the non-verbal bandwidth. JMO.
Just passing:
“But Men communicate this way too. And women generally read that nonverbal communication better than men”.
False.
Women believe that they are good at nonverbal communication.
Men, suckers that they are, just auto correct themselves after the situation. If guys would say false when women are chaneling miss cleo I don’t think women would believe this lie.
Hey Alberich,
I get where you’re coming from when you lament women not communicating in verbal form.
Think of it this way. One of the biggest songs out there is “Call me…..maybe”. This song details how the woman is in attractive fits over a guy (there’s a line about “never done this before, this is crazy” or something).
She’s overwhelmed with attraction for this guy, and yet she *still* leaves herself an out about her intentions by saying “call me…..maybe”.
The self-esteem repurcussions of women putting themselves out there and being rejected are simply huge. Women’s entire value in society come from being wanted and desired. So they simply are not going to put the risk out there that some guy will tell them: “No, I don’t fucking want you”.
I agree this whole thing is immature, but hey! This is women we’re talking about yuk yuk! (just kidding please don’t shove this comment into moderation limbo).
I have a lot of sympathy if a woman is afraid to show her feelings of affection or lust overtly. What bothers me is the use of body language to communicate aggressive, hostile messages, that would be deemed inappropriate if formulated with words. For example a woman might tell a politely approaching guy with her body language that she finds him disgusting. An obvious insult, but as body language enables deniability, it is difficult to call her out on that offence. Using body language allows manipulative behaviour, by being polite in words while being offensive in body language. Of course often I too show contempt or disgust towards innocent strangers with my body language, that is why I want strangers to listen to my words or codified behaviour and not some microaggressions I might inadvertantly display.
Body language is usually unconscious and very hard to fake. If soneone is uncomfortable, they will look uncomfortable.
Hello Sarah:
Re. body language.
I’ve noticed throughout the thread that you describe yourself as ‘plain.’ If you really think you are, then this is the the body language you will share with the world.
I understand men are visual creatures, and there are hierachies of attractiveness.
So what?
My aunt, who is in her mid-fifties, is, to put it kindly, a short, broad woman…who is in her mid-fifties!?
She has recently met a man she is very happy with. He thinks she’s the deal. Why?
Because she does. She knows she’s overweight, but she also know that she really hilarious, smart, competant, and hmm, she has let it be understood that she’s very…enthusiastic…in the bedroom. (laughing)
She does all this with a joie de vivre that is, attractive.
I know sometimes genetics may not be kind. But, I KNOW that if a woman is interesting, enjoying herself and her life, and puts out an energy that says “join me in this adventure,” there are going to be men who are very willing to overlook any of the physical deficits you think you have.
Good luck to you!
Thanks CajunMick, that is a nice perspective to hear. So many guys talk about how they only like attractive, younger women, it’s like all the rest of us should just stay home with our cats.
I got the sense Alberich was implying things like eye rolls and snorts of derision or something which are quite deliberate.
But, my view has no more validity than yours. I guess body language has this deniability for specifically the reason it can be stated it wasn’t intentional.
JohnD:
“I got the sense Alberich was implying things like eye rolls and snorts of derision or something which are quite deliberate.”
This kind of deliberate manipulation is of course even worse, but also in general you are responsible for your body language. Some people have certain ticks and some people have an atypical body language, but those specific instances of involuntary body language don’t communicate hostile messages. Now if someone is disgusted with fat people or holds contempt for homeless people and shows it then he is a jerk, because his body language is a consequence of his attitude and he can change it.
A little re-work of your last sentence:
“Now if someone is disgusted with fat people or holds contempt for homeless people and shows it then she or he is a jerk, because his or her body language is a consequence of their attitude and they can change it.”
This is all on point guys. I cannot disagree with anything. Women are not difficult to read at all to be honest. It’s the other things I have issues with….
Most communication IS non verbal. Just a fact. One of the best books I have read is by Tonya Reiman, “The Power of Body Language.” Get it and read it at least three times! It will help you in life, period.
I am a retirement/estate planner. During my initial visit with a prospect, there is no selling. I tell them this upfront. I relaxes most people. However, if during my discovery process, I see arms crossed I know its an uphill climb. The posture is classic defensive. So, I will slid the prospect a simple chart…something visual. This will force them to abandon the posture as I slide it only half way. I make then reach for it! Now, if after viewing it, they immediately go back to the defensive posture, the jig is up. Rarely will there be a second appointment.
Same with women. You must read human body language. If she starts playing with her ear lobe or leaning towards me, or crossing leg with top leg pointing towards me, I know I have her! I am now attractive to her. Also, watch for pupil dilation. Seriously.
Just remember, most women find very FEW of us attractive.
How in the world can I make eye contact with hot guys when they are too busy looking down at their cellphones every 5 seconds?
#hatedatinginthe20thcentury
@Vera Whitney…
Yes. It’s very sad but true. I also see a lot of ladies doing the same.
I always put my cell in my jacket inside pocket. I think it is rude to talk to someone and be mucking around on your cell. But, today cell phones are fashion statements…..Last year I went out on a date with a woman. She took two calls during dinner. When she took the third call, I ask the waiter for the check. I paid and left. Her behavior told me she was self centered. Also, it meant she lacked manners. No class.
Honestly, I really do not like cell phones. However, they are a must. I do have a 15 year old son. So, I carry it just in case…..Otherwise, I would lock the damn thing in my car.
@Jules
OMG, lol@ 20th century type-o, I didn’t even notice, LOL
Hate to make some of you mad but I have to introduce race into this discussion. I’m a black female that almost always goes for white dudes. The problem is that they never expect to be hit on by black women so they have no idea that you’re flirting or whatever. This makes it ten times harder and more complicated.
@Vera
No problem.
Btw, I am a Black guy. I love all women. However, I will say that I really don’t seem to have a lot of chemistry with most Black women. I think they feel I am “too white.” Oh well.
I treat all women the same. Either they get with me or they don’t. I am not going to change who I am for anyone. Take me for who I am.
We all have preferences. The two women whom I think are the most beautiful and classy are Angela Bassett and Catherine Zeta-Jones. They are both diamonds!
Cheers!
That’s a really interesting perspective, actually, Vera. Relationships between people of different races is a little more acceptable these days than it once was, but I don’t think it’s normal *enough* that some people aren’t still shocked by it, or like you said, just not expecting it. I’d actually like Dr. Nerdlove to offer a take on this – how to flirt and read signs not just across gender barriers, but racial or class barriers (i.e. how does the McDonald’s assistant manager approach the woman in the Mercedes?).
I’m a white woman with red hair (if the profile pic doesn’t say that already, har har) and I’ve heard the stereotype more than once that black men have a redhead fetish. And even though that’s a generalization and I don’t even know how true it is, I think it would be the first thing to pop into my head if a black guy was hitting on me. So yeah, I can totally see how racial biases play into the Approach, whether man-to-woman or woman-to-man.
Jules, if you’re still around – how do you react, or would you react, to white women coming on to you? (Other than Ms. Zeta-Jones.
)
Hey KKZ! I agree with you completely that although interracial dating is now acceptable (or at least tolerated) by most that it’s still not yet the “normal” dating standard. I have seen some really good looking white guys who I know would have no idea that I was into them. The fact that I would be a female and a black female at that approaching them is probably something that has not happened to them before, so it’s complicated.
About the black men thing, they pretty much like white girls in general and don’t seem to have a thing for redheads from what I understand. The irony is that they hate seeing black women with white men but don’t get angry when a black guy is with a white girl, go figure.
@KKZ…
“……if you’re still around – how do you react, or would you react, to white women coming on to you? (Other than Ms. Zeta-Jones.
)”
I am OK with any woman hitting on me. In all honesty white women do find me attractive much more so than black women. It has nothing to do with looks. I am an average looking guy. I do dress very very well. Rather it is my confident attitude, charm, and intelligence.
So, being hit on by white women ar any women, including black women, is OK with me.
“(i.e. how does the McDonald’s assistant manager approach the woman in the Mercedes?).”
Lol, he doesn’t.
@John D…
Why not? Women have screwed even worse. You never know.
Remember, female sexuality is “different.” She might enjoy the fantasy of screwing him. You know how women love their fantasies.
Oh, it’s the 21st Century.
A woman who is interested in being approached will often use eye contact as a way of signaling her interest in you.
Or, you can just walk up and catch her off-guard, and take a seat before she has a chance to answer.
Remember “The Approach” to the Reverse Cowgirl?
I walked up to the far corner of her table. “Hey, can I see what you’re drawing?” I asked. She looked up – she didn’t notice me as I’d walked over – and I smiled.
Why on earth am I being lectured on this by a guy who’s not practicing what he’s preaching himself?
Let me get this straight: women send signals via body language that 80% of men ‘don’t get’, and that’s the men’s fault?
No one said it’s the men’s fault, he’s just saying “this is the way these things often happen, why not be a part of it?”
Nerdlove’s implication was that men are somehow less adept at reading those non-verbal signals than women. And my question is: if women really are more adept at the non-verbal signals, why are they sending out signals that are mostly ‘not gotten’?
If this is “the way things happen’ ,why is Nerdlove suggesting that most of half of the population can’t read the signals without his wonderful advice?
Oh, for heaven’s sake, guys! There’s some seriously valuable information to be had here, if you can get past the defensive feelings.
I guess Dr. Nerdlove didn’t provide enough background on his advice, so here’s a bit of it: For starters, the human brain evolved in stages, with some of its “modules” still very much resembling the parts of the brains of our primitive vertebrate ancestors. Our forebrain, the seat of our reasoning abilities and probably our consciousness, is in a sense tacked on to the older parts of the brain. Thus, there are incredible amounts of processing that go on in the brain that are not accessible to our conscious minds. In fact, modern MRI shows that most of our actions originate in the ‘unconscious mind’ part of the brain before our conscious mind becomes aware of them, and our conscious mind is left to rationalize why we did what we did. For a really entertaining pop-science read on this topic, pick up Malcolm Gladwell’s book, “Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking.”
Those are the foundational assumptions for Dr. Nerdlove’s advice here. The behaviors he describes in women originate from the unconscious-mind parts of the brain, the parts of the brain that evolved first in our distant primate ancestors. And here’s a new wrinkle– even if you were consciously unaware of these cues (and plenty of other body-language cues), your unconscious mind probably has probably often picked up on them. If you’ve ever appreciated an actor’s great performance, or felt that a conversation you’ve had felt awkward even if a written transcript of your words wouldn’t show it, then that means that your unconscious mind picked up on body-language cues, even if you couldn’t consciously describe what they were.
So, the point of this article is not that men are less adept at picking up cues++, but instead to point out these cues, to bring them to your conscious attention so that you, as a man, if you decide to approach a woman, can maybe save some time and frustration if she’s just not interested.
++If I recall Psych. 201 correctly, the graph of emotional reading ability of men and women shows the usual bell curve distributions, with the curve for men just slightly offset from the curve for women, meaning that women are slightly better on the whole, but there are still plenty of men better than the average woman, and plenty of women worse than the average man.
Well, one question still remains.
If all this is evolutionary and going on in the unconsciuos part of the brain, how come that men in particular has lost this ability that we didn’t even knew existed to begin with, and why (and how) do we have to pay attention to something that our consciuos mind doesn’t even know is hoing on arund us…?
Seems like a bit of a contradiction to me.
FlyKal: No one said that men *have* to pay attention to these signs. It’s just that if they want wider success in the dating world, whether for relationships, dating, or casual, it would help if they did. Everyone has the choice of whether to brush the advice off or use it. It doesn’t make you a bad person if you’re against using it, but it’s worth knowing as a skill.
Maybe men are less privvy to the signs of nonverbal communication because the circuitry of mirror nuerons, which according to some research, is stronger in females than males, along with social conditioning to be emotionally selfsih (don’t show are share your emotions with others) makes it hard for some men to observe minute muscular deatils and interpret them on an emotional basis.
I spent a semester studying the muscle structure and combination of muscle use in regards to facial expression that has been observed WORLDWIDE (not based on cultural conditioning) for communicating NON VERBALLY. it is NOT something that only women do, but something that maybe more women than men are able to more easily interpret.
A lot of it has to do with out linear thinking process. Women are more relational in their thinking.
Hence, modes of communication is very different.
I’d have girls throwing out signs so obvious friends would approach them for me cause they were sick of just watching me sit there and shy away from it.
No one was patting me on back and telling me “it’s ok man, maybe one day she’ll approach you”.
Nowadays i’m approaching but i’ve never been approached and the stories i hear of woman approaching are few and far between.
I still get nervous and thoughts still race through my head, but i know if i don’t approach the woman will simple chalk it up to me not being that interested and move on.
Men are taught to initiate contact with woman (from saying hi to getting down on 1 knee) and few people feel sorry for them when they don’t.
Men: The lessons are good. Take them to heart.
Women: be more clear with what you want and you will get it.
There seems to be a disporportion of the distribution of responsibility(or fault).
If I don’t read the signs well enough, thats my fault. (OK, I think both parties should be as clear as they can).
If I (as a guy) arent clear about what I mean or want, I am at fault at too.
Why is that?
I just don’t understand why the lack of directness. I went on a date the other night, and she just wasn’t into me. At the end of the date when I suggested we go out again, she told me, “Listen, I’m not really feeling a romantic thing. You’re nice, and entertaining, but I’m just not feeling it, sorry.” I was very happy to get this sort of response. Why? Because it was definitive. There was no confusion or subtlety, no agreeing to another date and then ignoring me, etc. She was honest, up front, and open about her feelings. I would have preferred a different outcome, but I was happy to get the honest truth. I won’t worry about what went wrong or what my mistakes were, she just wasn’t into me for whatever reason, and I’ll try again.
Collin, I get that. I appreciate a direct response/statement of intentions too. It saves a lot of time and heartache. I appreciate this when a guy does this as well. The *only* thing I might mention is that women sometimes aren’t sure immediately what they want out of an encounter. Sometimes you need some time to process it all. Implying a second date gives you that extra time. I tend to be slower to figure out and decide things (this also goes for school, work, picking out which flavor of ice cream I want, etc). I wouldn’t always know after a first encounter/date if I’m into a guy or not.
Love, even lust, at first sight is a foreign concept to me for the most part. I need some kind of connection to build, some kind of context. I’ve made the mistake a couple of times of being direct about not being interested romantically/just wanting to be friends so that I wouldn’t lead him on or be a friend-zoning bitch–only to have feelings and sexual attraction grow. I’ve also made the mistake of feeling like I had to make a decision too early that I was interested only to realize that it was just a silly infatuation or that the chemistry didn’t end up being there.
Why any hetero male would disempower himself by following these old school standards of engagement is beyond me. Is it beneficial to understand body language, yes it is.However, as higher being we have the ability to recognize when a behavior isn’t producing the result we want that we can change.said behavior.The downsides to always being the initiator of relationships are too many to name. Not the least of which is men get labeled as THE sexual aggressors in culture. This in spite of the fact that women control quite a bit of what happens or doesn’t happen in relationships. But the rules of the game, principally flirtation,which allows women to exert control without taking responsibility for doing so, is the kind of crazy making behavior men are tired and frustrated with. It is simple, when it comes to equality, women apply different gender bound standards to themselves vs. men.n And typically, most women have no problem with the glaring contradictions because at the end of the day, the contradictions serves their interests.Even with all of the drawbacks of being pursued, the person being pursued has the power .Are their some women who take on the risk of rejection, of course, in every culture they are outliers. They are not enough to make a difference. If you are a man, there are some ways around some of this nonsense. First and foremost, STOP INITIATING IN THE OLD WAYS.Find ways to create friendships with women in general. What works best is finding a group of women that you have something in common with and let things happen organically.On many occasions,I’ve done this and have actually had sex with several women in said group, who knew perfectly well what was going on AND HAD DISCUSSED HAVING SEX WITH ME.Sure beats buying flowers and having to pretend to like all of that romantic nonsense one is bound to have to confront in the more traditional “Me man, me strong, me initiate,” routine. I just think , men have a right to expect that women are going to be consistently independent in their behavior and not just when it is beneficial to them. And if they are not going to be, they should be held accountable.
@Julie: You are dead right in that change takes a while, especially gender role changes. However, men typically aren’t extended that grace from women. Heck if a person demands or says that they are independent then it seems reasonable to expect certain kinds of behavior from them. I think this is the problem most men have with feminism, not equality for women.Women say this and that about how strong and independent they are then they do something that is the opposite of that claim.When they do, they don’t offer any reasonable explanation nor do they accept responsibility for being confusing. Essentially, there is no accountability.Women don’t allow men such behavioral luxuries because she wants and need to hold him to a male gendered standard of behavior which benefits her.This means that as a man his word is a defining aspect of his masculinity. As a result she has no idea how difficult it is to deal with a person who is all over the map behaviorally,who says one thing then does something else entirely.One of the results of this is that men perceive women as sneaky, duplicitous,manipulative, passive aggressive and controlling. And women go HUH? Growing up , when my mother would frustrate by changing horses mid stream he response was always,”It’s a woman’s choice to change her mind at any time,” Seems this has been going on a long time.