Doctor NerdLove investigates the complaint that only certain types of guys get all the women.
Originally appeared at Paging Doctor NerdLove
There are few questions more frustrating than “What’s he got that I ain’t got?”
It’s a long-running complaint amongst some men that only “certain” guys get all the women1 – the so-called “alpha males” who are tall, dark and handsome assholes with lantern jaws, fast cars, a six-pack and seven figure salary. All other men are just shit out of luck and may as well jump off a cliff; they’re evolutionary dead-ends, forever doomed to be unable to spread their seed and carry on their genetic lineage.
Women, others insist, are interested only in hypergamy; only men who offer some means of rising socially or economically are the ones getting all the sexing. Others will say that geeks are shut out because of a prejudice against brains or the socially awkward. Still others have equally arcane ideas of what women – apparently a monolithic entity of vast and unimaginable social power - want.
The common denominator in all these ideas boils down to “something other than me”. The rest of it tends to be a mishmash of theories on what women want (or actually want, rather than what they say they do..) that explains why someone who isn’t them is getting all the sexing. I can relate; God knows I spent enough time in my youth believing that there were two types of dudes in the world: the ones who women found attractive and everybody else. And I was very firmly in the latter category.
Of course, this begs the question of “if only a certain percentage of men get the majority of the women, why haven’t we died out as a species?”
Wait: wrong question. The question is: “How do you know that this is what women find attractive?” The answer is usually a variation of “this is what the media tells me” or “this is what I see all around me every day.”
The problem with this is that, frankly, the plural of “anecdote” isn’t “data”. People are prone to blind spots when it comes to a deeply held beliefs, an intellectual fallacy known as “confirmation bias”; that is, we’re only seeing the things that back up what we already believe and dismissing (or simply not seeing) everything else.
So rather than going on about Studly Good-Night at the club with his Maserati and $4,000 suit is the only one women like, I wanted to get down to what women really find attractive. So I asked them.
Flipping The Attraction Switches
Over on the Dr. NerdLove Facebook page and Twitter feed, I put out the call for women to weigh in on what they found attractive in men – not just in looks but in personality, behavior and lifestyle. Now while I’ll be the first to say that this was not by any stretch of the imagination a scientific study or formal poll, the results are, I think, fairly indicative of what women – predominantly 18-34 and cutting across many ethnic and religious demographics – like.
Now obviously there was a fairly wide variety in what people liked; after all, aside from some baseline factors built in that encourage survival of the species – facial symmetry, outward signs of physical health and ability to sire/bear offspring – what we find attractive tends to change based on cultural and emotional influences.
But there were certain areas – call them attraction switches – that came up over and over again. The men who successfully hit these switches are the ones who are most often seen as “attractive”.
Passion
Women are drawn to men with passion in their lives. Too many people are content to simply exist, following a routine of “wake up, eat, work, eat, sleep, repeat” day in and day out, living out Thoroeu’s “lives of quiet desperation”. People with passion in their lives are driven. They don’t just meander or float through life, they have purpose. They have something they live for, something they care about with an intensity that you just don’t see often. There’s a part of their life that brings them fulfilment, that pushes them on and inspires them.
This, incidentally, is why being a rockstar is God’s gift to ugly people.
People who have passion are interesting. They have a certainty and assuredness about them because they love what they’re passionate about whole-heartedly and don’t worry about “maybe I shouldn’t get this excited over my favorite bands” or “maybe I should act my age instead of waxing rhapsodic about the power that books have over me”
Even if it’s not a passion that they both share, when someone is passionate about something and knows how to express that passion in a clear and attractive manner, it’s very hard not to get caught up in their enthusiasm and carried along by it.
Confidence
OK, we’ll get it out of the way now: confidence is the #2 cliché of what women find attractive in men2. Even so, the fact that it’s included in the list almost reflexively does not in any way diminish the fact that confidence is a universally attractive trait. The problem is how many men seem to mistake arrogance or obliviousness for confidence. The so-called “alpha” behavior that men often mistake for confidence tends to be selfishness and a lack of respect for others, not the knowledge of one’s own abilities and value.
Confidence is, ultimately a belief in oneself; the knowing what you’re worth and what you’re capable of even in the face of people who belittle or demean you. It’s knowing that you are equal to the trial at hand and the correctness of one’s path. Someone who is confident is tempered by self-awareness and humility; it’s less of an the idea that you can’t fail but the knowledge that you can succeed if you work hard.
A confident person knows what he’s worth and is willing to work to get what he’s worth rather than to assume that he just deserves it by virtue of existing. A confident person doesn’t cringe or whine at the first sign of trouble; they grit their teeth and push through it. A confident person in a relationship doesn’t let his partner walk all over him or expect her to be a substitute mother, telling him what to do and how to do it.
True confidence – that feeling of certainty and potential that comes with knowing to your core who you are and what you’re worth – is magnetic.
Respect
Want to make an Internet’s worth of women’s hearts start racing? Post a Feminist Ryan Gosling Meme.
The appeal of the meme is more than the randomness of excerpting feminist theory and juxtaposing it with the pick-up artist from Crazy Stupid Love; it’s the combination of a physically appealing man and the idea that he gets it. He understands what it’s like to be a woman, the struggle for full equality and independence and the myriad ways that women are still told today that they are second-class citizens. Feminist Ryan Gosling is the fantasy of a man who understands women, empathizes with them and – most importantly – respects them. Really respects them, not just knows the right phrases to mouth in order to get into her panties.
A lack of respect for women tends to manifest itself in any number of ways; the man in question may refuse to respect her boundaries or dismiss or diminish her concerns as “unimportant” or “being too sensitive”. They tend to assume that women come from a position of inferiority or inexperience. They presume that women are somehow the Other, rather than just being people with different sets of genitalia.
By showing a lack of respect for women, they’re sending the message of “I don’t see you as an equal,” – a critical flaw in a relationship.
After thousands of generations, we’re starting to creep our way ever so slowly towards social equality and the social resistance to that change still endures. It can be intimidating to men; after all, the default definition of masculinity has been the patriarch, so what does it mean to be a man if suddenly we’re not the ones in charge of everything any more? A man who truly respects women is someone secure enough in his masculinity to realize that equality isn’t a zero-sum game and is looking for a partner through life, not a subordinate.
Intellectual Curiosity
It’s hard to believe in a world that brings us the Jersey Shore and Here Comes Honey Boo-Boo, but women like a man with a well-hung brain. Too many men seem to believe that learning ends as soon as you’re handed a degree (if not sooner) while others seem to prefer to passively absorb whatever information comes their way.
Men who kindle their intellect, people who indulge a love of learning for learning’s sake on the other hand… they have passion. They take an active role in their own lives, seeking out new experiences and trying to improve themselves and their understanding of the world. These tend to be people with drive and ambition, rather than being someone who’s content to let the world pass them by while they kill time playing Call of Duty: None More Black Ops. A person who wants to cultivate their intellectual curiosity is someone who pays attention to the world around them and wants to engage in it, rather than being spoon-fed.
A Sense of Humor
Ask any woman what she’s looking for in a romantic partner and you will inevitably hear “a sense of humor” or “someone who can make me laugh”. A sense of humor is perhaps the number one most desirable trait a man can have when it comes to meeting women.
Humor is incredibly important when it comes to building rapport with people. Being able to make each other laugh is like a relationship shortcut; when your sense of humor matches up with somebody else’s, they feel closer to you almost instantly. Everyone I know who is good with women is able to make them laugh – a genuine, “Oh God, please, I’m about to hurt something” laugh, not the strained “Oh god how long do I have to tolerate this person before the social contract say I can leave” titter through clenched teeth. The more highly a woman appreciates a man’s sense of humor, the greater the likelihood that she will be romantically interested in him. A good sense of humor – a compatible one at that, as many of the respondents on the Facebook page noted – makes men seem much more desirable as a partner.
Why? Well, to start with, men with good senses of humor are seen as being more socially intelligent and experienced; after all, knowing how to make someone laugh without making them uncomfortable is a skill that takes practice and experience. But, importantly, laughter also affects us on a chemical level; it helps promote the production serotonin, which decreases stress toxins in the blood. It hyper-oxygenates the blood, helping the brain to function more efficiently. In other words: laughter makes us feel better physically. Being able to make a woman laugh means you’re able to make her feel good.
But… What About Looks?
Now, nobody is saying that looks aren’t an important part of attraction. But at the same time, they’re not the end-all, be-all either – despite what men often tell themselves. While men gripe and moan about how only men with washboard abs and rock-hard pecs can get the ladies, the responses to my informal poll were about as scattershot as one could get. Some women adore bald men, others get weak in the knees for long hair and others will only date men with short hair. Some want their men clean-shaven, others love facial hair with the passion of a thousand suns. Some women loved big burly men while others like skinny nerd-boys who look like the kid they could’ve met at Hebrew school.
“…ladies!”
The only feature that most women seemed to universally desire were nice shoulders. Shoulders seem to be the one thing women could agree on. Go figure.Hairy, hairless, brunette, blonde, brown-eyed, blue-eyed… for every five women, you’d get six responses. Most women who mentioned looks preferred someone who cared about their appearance – someone who took the time to make themselves look nice rather than giving the impression that they had been attacked by a sentient pile of dirty laundry after having not shaved for four days. Same with body types; women cared more that guys took care of themselves than that they looked like an Abercrombie and Fitch model.
But while you’re working on your lat raises and upright rows, think on this: women respond far more to drive and behavior than to looks. Spending a little more time brushing up on your feminist theory, building your confidence and cultivating your love for British television will go further to finding you the partner of your dreams.
Guitar photo: Flickr/Rafael Kage
Joseph Gordon-Levitt photo: AP
About Harris O'Malley
Not trying to start any fires here, but i would really be interested in seeing an honest list about what women are willing to do for men. Meaningful things, not the stereotypical tummy tucks and implants.
Here are a few things on My Man’s List
I brag to others about his accomplishments and what he does for me
I respect his decisions without a debate
I ask for his advice and help and challenge him when he’s not at his best
I initiate sex and keep it surprising
I thank him for the value he adds to my life and let him know I need him
I decline attention from other men, so he never feels jealous
He has no man-leash because I know he knows how to find his way home all by himself
I give him gifts and bake him special treats when he needs extra lovin’
And yes, I am an educated MBA professional woman and he is an educated professional MS Engineer.
You must read read my latest book Men Need More: More Sex, More Respect, More Gratitude, and More Love.
I think this question says more about you than any answer a woman gives will say about her.
“And who is that freak with the caption, “ladies” under his name?”
It’s Joseph Gordon-Levitt. I had a poster of him on my wall when I was a teen.
I have a mad crush on him. Mad. Even though he’s very young, he is so smart and clever and picks great scripts (though I hear Looper was a crap pile). And he’s a good singer.
http://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/joseph-gordon-levitt-on-journalistic-integrity/
Looper was good. Someone’s been fibbin ya
He is definitely awesome in the latest Batman movie (even with his fake NYC accent)….!
Just to put it out there. The same thing has been said to women for years. In another thread, several posters said that women just need to get over it and not be insecure about their looks. I hear it all the time. A woman who compares herself to other women is not a keeper. Be pretty but not actually *try* to be pretty. Woman up and deal with the media and corporations making you feel like you’re shit and men looking at p*rn of 18 year olds. This kind of advice is given to women every day. It’s given in other threads on this very forum.
offtopic: Aya, perhaps you might remember some months ago, I posted a reply to you about BodyForm (a UK maxipad company) and their legendary ad campaign of the late 80s in the UK.
Perhaps youve seen their latest hit as its gone viral, I burst out laughing at the farting bit
http://www.salon.com/2012/10/16/feminine_hygiene_company_responds_to_viral_rant/
@Archy: I get your frustration, I can’t help but think that for you and others focusing that energy towards making change might serve a purpose. I am often frustrated with how little, besides interesting conversation, actually happens to make change on the gender front. FYI.The DV law in America,though longer officially gendered,it includes the LGBT community, straight men still bear the moral burden.The straight feminists did want include the LGBT community in the new act. Partially due to a refusal to admit that women rape and committ DV against other women.
Let me translate this.
1. Passion
What is meant is that you should be passionate about the right thing and in the right amount. Music is ok, indipendant movies is ok. Sleeping at the office to complete yoru experiments in sub-atomic quantum physics is not.
2. Confidence
Speak confidently about what she wants to hear. You have a nobel prize in quantum chemistry? No one cares, it is just nerd talk anyways. You know the front person of some obscure indipendant music act, talk for hours.
3.Respect
Tucker Max, nothing more needs to be said.
4.A Sense of Humor
Tell abstract ph.d. level jokes? You are a nerd and should go back to your dungeon.
Tell cruel downputtning jokes. Go on.
4. Looks
Look good, but don’t look like you spend hours a day trying to look good.
I am starting to be more and more convinced that the reason all this articles telling men that women aren’t that shallow is just smoke and mirrors. If it surfaced that women are just as shallow as men, not one single man would care about how bad the ordinary woman is made to feel when watching the latest magazines.
Dr. Anonymous–The answer for the first 3 is to date a woman you mesh with, and someone with at least close to a corresponding level of education and/or intellectual curiosity. If ‘nerd talk’ is important to you, find someone who shares that passion, or at least be open to and patient with being someone who might take a little longer to understand it. And is that stuff you need to talk about *all* of the time? There are things that I’m interested in but I’m not going to talk about 24/7. Say you’re not terribly interested in pastries nor do you have any experience with them, but you meet a girl who is passionate about them. You might be curious and enjoy her passion for cupcake frosting, but you probably wouldn’t want her to spend hours upon hours talking about just that–and there might be a learning curve. If a girl is going to tell you to crawl back into your dungeon for making an abstract ph.d joke, then she’s not the right girl for you anyways. If you’re going to get angry with her for not getting it, then you’re not the right guy for her anyways. Passions and hobbies are never going to line up 100%. Find someone who’s open to yours and be open to hers as well.
“Find someone who’s into what you’re into” is not always possible, as many interests are gender imbalanced. Go to any co-ed engineering school, and, chances are, there will be three male students for every one female student. Go to any Magic: the Gathering tournament, and you’ll be lucky if more than one out of 75 participants is female.
I have a PhD in chemistry and my wonderful boyfriend has a PhD in physics. Yeah, physics may be 10:1 male to female, but the (much larger) chem department at our school was probably about 45:55, you don’t have to have exactly the same discipline to find someone who THINKS like you do. There might not be girls at the Magic tourney, but you can find ones that like graphic novels at a comic con. I think a lot of “geeky” men who feel under appreciated really just are being the same amount of picky. They want a hot girl who likes EXACTLY what they like, and assume that women who don’t like those things won’t be interested. If you have passions and interests, own up to them and be confident about them, especially the women you admire, even if she might not like that thing, she may like you.
“Dr. Anonymous–The answer for the first 3 is to date a woman you mesh with, and someone with at least close to a corresponding level of education and/or intellectual curiosity. If ‘nerd talk’ is important to you, find someone who shares that passion, or at least be open to and patient with being someone who might take a little longer to understand it. And is that stuff you need to talk about *all* of the time? ”
This is not what the question is about. The question is about the fact that the onus is always on the man to adapt. That is what Dr. Nerdlove is really saying.
“There are things that I’m interested in but I’m not going to talk about 24/7. Say you’re not terribly interested in pastries nor do you have any experience with them, but you meet a girl who is passionate about them. You might be curious and enjoy her passion for cupcake frosting, but you probably wouldn’t want her to spend hours upon hours talking about just that–and there might be a learning curve. If a girl is going to tell you to crawl back into your dungeon for making an abstract ph.d joke, then she’s not the right girl for you anyways.”
Great, tell that to the feminist crowd that went out of their way to support Alyssa Bereznak.
“If you’re going to get angry with her for not getting it, then you’re not the right guy for her anyways. Passions and hobbies are never going to line up 100%. Find someone who’s open to yours and be open to hers as well.”
I have stopped caring, just leave me alone. But don’t come whining when you want to be in my team changing the world.
The Alyssa Bereznak/Jon Finkel thing has been discussed to death, but I’ll weigh in again. I’ll start off with saying that I’m a very conventionally attractive woman (I’m not being overly confident here, in fact I’m insecure, but but objectively, I’m quite hot by conventional standards) who is surrounded by MTG. Most of of the guys I hang out with have it as their primary hobby (although the guy I’m crazy about is more into D&D). I know everyone from the casual player to guys who make it to pro tours and have traveled to the world to play. I play casually–with friends and for FNMs (I’m not confortable enough with my skill level to play at PTQs, grand prix, states). I don’t look at spoilers the day they come out, but I respect people who do. Yesterday what was streaming in my apartment when I had people over? Coverage of the Seattle Return to Ravnica pro tour (in fact, it’s still on; there was just some draft going on and now they’re profiling players).
I’ll admit I’m often uncomfortable showing up to larger tournaments, even if it’s just to support friends. I’m a hot girl in room full of men (women and black men are highly underrepresented at most of the tournaments I go to). I occasionally hear comments and get stares when I walk in. Unlike Alyssa, though, I do get I get that it takes a lot of brainpower, talent, money, passion, devotion to be a good player. I respect it completely. The other thing I get is being offended by someone shallowly writing you off for one aspect of your life. I remember a guy saying that he would never date someone who is or has been a model (I’m assuming he thinks they’re shallow). I was livid…because I was a model a couple of years ago and it really hurt to hear that I’d be written off for something I had simply enjoyed doing and that’s only part of who I am.
Alyssa said something ignorant. We get that. We all say stupid things. BUT the reaction was still NOT OK. Calling her terrible names, threatening her, calling all women terrible people, the sheer anger over a silly article. It’s the bitter, angry players that make women feel uncomfortable dating players, and who are the reason that one of my favorite mtg experiences was a ladies’ event. I said something along the lines of this in Nerdlove’s article on nerds: There are a lot of nerds who don’t really let women into their ‘spaces,’ demand some crazy amount of nerd cred from them, or make them feel uncomfortable but then complain when they get ignored or rejected by women. It doesn’t make sense to me.
I’d really appreciate if you read this: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22786_To_My_Someday_Daughter.html
And if you’d rather stop caring, that’s fine for you. You’re allowed to do that. But you did come onto a forum where people will, give their experiences, and advice, if they can.
Alyssa said something ignorant. We get that. We all say stupid things. BUT the reaction was still NOT OK. Calling her terrible names, threatening her, calling all women terrible people, the sheer anger over a silly article. It’s the bitter, angry players that make women feel uncomfortable dating players, and who are the reason that one of my favorite mtg experiences was a ladies’ event.
I just wanted to chime up on this real quick. I’ll be the first to agree that a lot of the reaction to the stuff she said was uncalled for. But at the same time I can’t help but notice that this incident didn’t really blow up (especially with women and feminists) UNTIL the uncalled for reactions started happening.
When the bitter and angry players were silent about what she said they didn’t seem to have a problem with it but as soon as they acted on that anger all of a sudden it became a problem. A lot of what I saw over this was 1 or 2 sentences of “We get that what she said was messed up. We really do.” and about 5 paragraphs about how those angry players are what leave women feeling so unwelcome in those environments.
Well maybe if the Alyssas of the world weren’t doing and saying the stuff that contributes to that anger and bitterness there wouldn’t be so much anger and bitterness in the first place. No I’m not saying they deserve that treatment but at the same time I can’t help but notice that not very many of the folks that get up in arms when the misogyny comes seem to have much of a problem with the misandry that contributed to it.
Actually, most of the paragraphs were about other things, if you actually read through it. There’s just about one that talks about women feeling uncomfortable. I praised mtg players, and talk about relating to their experiences in the other. I’d also like to mention that women are told to deal with it when men say they wouldn’t consider a woman who has had too many sexual partners (according to him) as a dating option (or a number of superficial, silly things). This is basically what Alyssa said. He’s a good guy, but I can’t take him seriously because he plays mtg. Eww, dork. She’s hot and fun and nice, but she’s’ had more sex than I have, so I can’t take her seriously. Eww, slut. I don’t agree with her in ANY way. As I mentioned, I highly respect mtg and most of the players (not the mean, crazy ones, but the ones who just love playing it and have a passion for it…or who are just willing to play with me and not be a dick about it). Just realize that men do it too–they also make snap judgments.
She looked him up on the internet. She didn’t like what she saw. I can tell you 100% that there are millions of men out there who would look me up on the internet, see pictures of my tits, and drop me in a second, despite the fact that we might get along really well and that they might think that I’m a good, sexy, cute, fun person.
And it’s a loop. Men feel rejected by women. They disrespect women. Women feel disrespected by men, so they reject them. It’s a stupid cycle. I’ve always been most attracted to the nerdy type. Not the cute guy who wears glasses nerdy type, but serious nerds. I’m occasionally turned off by them, though, because of the attitudes I see in the various communities. The bitterness, the anger, the disrespect for women, the objectifying, the not being open to people who just want to like certain things casually. Obviously, it’s not everyone. But there was a time when I gave up on nerds. They’ll always be bitter, manipulative, and seek attention from women above anything else–that’s what I thought. I’m way past that now and I’m down with liking the men I like. But there was a period where I did get bitter myself about it all.
Aya,
you got the circle wrong, especially when it comes to low social status men like nerds.
It starts with them being disrespected and (often cruelly) rejected by women/girls, then they disrespect them back.
The fact that it is a circle implies there is no start point. No one started the fight, it’s been going on long, long before you or I were born. The conflict and hatred between the genders has existed forever, though it has changed dramatically over the decades. You could probably name instances where you were totally innocent but the girl said/did something hurtful, but each of those girls might be able to say the same thing. Not to mention infinite array of subtle influences that convinces us to suspect the opposite gender regardless of what we’ve seen for ourselves.
Alberich said: “you got the circle wrong, especially when it comes to low social status men like nerds. It starts with them being disrespected and (often cruelly) rejected by women/girls, then they disrespect them back.” I really need to address this, because it is an inappropriate excuse. First of all, I object to you referring to nerds as “low social status men.” My boyfriend is a nerd. My ex-fiance was a nerd. I’m a nerd. My friends are nerds. Nerds tend to date nerds- and we are just fine from my perspective. I have a great social circle and some wonderful friends- and I take objection to you referring to the man I love that way… however inadvertently.
The reason nerds get rejected by women has nothing to do with them being nerds. It has to do with the fact that most women probably don’t share their interests. Women date men they have something in common with and simultaneously find sexually attractive. That’s it. That’s the great big secret. We like guys we can relate to. We also like guys that are respectful and pleasant and fun and treat us well. (I personally like men that also smell good.) Yes, I’ve dated a jerk or two in my time. But you know what that jerk had? A killing sense of humor. I like twisted humor- and I loved being able to wake up next to someone who could make the most inappropriate comment possible. That was a fun, short term relationship with a man I still think of as a friend and give dating advice to. Sometimes life is about exploration and having fun as much as it is about intimacy and commitment.
My ex.. who I almost married… was the opposite. He was the biggest geek you ever met. He was a sweet guy, kinda chubby, totally cute. I loved him immensely because he was emotionally honest and sensitive. However, he turned out to lack guts. I thought he had some inner strength to him, but when we hit a rough patch- he folded like a stack of cards and threw the adult equivalent of a temper tantrum while I had to clean up the mess. Now, he is my ex. Women like men who can take responsibility for themselves. The quickest way to turn a woman off is to fail to take responsibility for yourself. I realized, if we married, I was going to have to spend my whole life dealing with his mood swings and propping him up… because he chose, in the face of disappointment, to take it out on others and wallow in avoidance. A juvenile reaction.
Which leads me to this point. You are blaming women for the bad behavior of men. You are basically saying that it’s justifiable for a grown man to treat a woman with disrespect because he was a nerd and girls rejected him in the past. Well…no. That’s not okay. That’s the adult version of throwing a temper tantrum because you didn’t get what you want. Try going into a job interview with that attitude- and see how far it gets you. Try being rude to your next potential employer because the last guy didn’t hire you.. .and see if they want you aboard.
A man who acts like a petulant child is never attractive. If a man feels insecure because of whatever experiences he had in life- he needs to face it, own it, and get over it… not blame the women he meets for the fact he doesn’t feel accepted enough. Your issues are not my problem- and if you attempt to start off a relationship by blaming me for your issues, that relationship is going to end very fast. If a man is disrespectful to me because he feels rejected by women- he’s in the wrong. I did nothing to warrant that. And, even if I did reject you… guess what? We don’t owe you sex. We don’t owe you flirtation. We don’t owe you sexual confidence building. We aren’t your therapist, a prostitute, or your mother. And we aren’t the enemy just because you can’t figure out how to be good with yourself.
The fact is, everyone got bullied as a kid. Everyone got rejected. I’m pretty good looking- actually, really good looking. But, what’s that worth? I was socially awkward and had to work at being socially savvy. I got bullied and rejected all through my life as a kid. I had guys reject me in college- I had guys sleep with me and dump me. I don’t take it out on other people- or on men in general. That’s just part of life. Life is a struggle for everyone. Women don’t owe it to you to come to your rescue. The truth is, no one will like you if you don’t like yourself first, and/or treat others with decency and respect.
Nina, I agree with your stance up until the point where you say that everyone got bullied. I think that point, or at least my reading of it, dismisses the very real pain endured by some people who are chronically bullied. Yes, everyone has a hard way to go at some point in adolescence, but all teenaged angst is not created equal, and the circumstances that contribute to that angst can vary remarkably. To be clear, the load of crap I carried out of those years was relatively light.
I do agree that whatever happens to me is my responsibility to manage and I also agree that it’s self defeating and unethical to try to make someone else responsible. That message suffices and “it’s hard for everyone” is one of those true but incomplete bits of conventional wisdom that just pisses off people who know there’s a bigger truth.
While the effects do circle in the form of someone being treated bad and then they in turn mistreat others I think calling it a loop might not be the best way to describe it.
Thing is different people come into the loop at different points. Some guys start off disrespecting women from the get go regardless of how women have treated them in their own past just as some women start off disrespecting men from the get go regardless of how men have treated them in their own past and so on. From there their disrepect infects other people who may be entering said loop at different points and so on.
So when it comes down to it Nina and Alberich I think you either of you could be right about the cycle.
With that said Nina I think Alberich may have been saying men are are deemed to be low status. And I’m pretty sure Alberich said nothing about it being a valid reason for men to treat women that way. And what you said about men in your post could just as easily be flipped around and said about women as well (even the part where you say the reason reject male nerds has nothing to do with their nerdiness). Which is the point.
Actually, most of the paragraphs were about other things, if you actually read through it.
Actually I did and if you had actually read my response you would have notice that I wasn’t limiting what I said to a single response this this incident.
I’d also like to mention that women are told to deal with it when men say they wouldn’t consider a woman who has had too many sexual partners (according to him) as a dating option (or a number of superficial, silly things).
Yes that certainly does happen and it’s not right.
This is basically what Alyssa said. He’s a good guy, but I can’t take him seriously because he plays mtg. Eww, dork. She’s hot and fun and nice, but she’s’ had more sex than I have, so I can’t take her seriously. Eww, slut. I don’t agree with her in ANY way.
So there was shallowness on both sides.
As I mentioned, I highly respect mtg and most of the players (not the mean, crazy ones, but the ones who just love playing it and have a passion for it…or who are just willing to play with me and not be a dick about it). Just realize that men do it too–they also make snap judgments.
I never said they don’t.
She looked him up on the internet. She didn’t like what she saw. I can tell you 100% that there are millions of men out there who would look me up on the internet, see pictures of my tits, and drop me in a second, despite the fact that we might get along really well and that they might think that I’m a good, sexy, cute, fun person.
Oh yeah that kind of stuff does happen. And truthfully if they were just applying whatever standards lead them to such decisions to themselves I’d be fine with it.
The problem is if I for example were to look at a pic of your tits, drop you in a hot second, AND then start railing on to anyone that would listen about how terrible of a person you are and how digusting and all sorts of other negative insults as if my opinions of you ar straight fact.
No different that the millions of women out there that would never give me the time of day because of my size.
The problem is if I for example were to look at a pic of your tits, drop you in a hot second, AND then start railing on to anyone that would listen about how terrible of a person you are and how digusting and all sorts of other negative insults as if my opinions of you ar straight fact.
And this happens. Men actually do this. And it says something that ex-gf revenge p*rn is so popular. Even if most of it is fake, the fact that that’s what so many people want to see is extremely disturbing.
Oh yeah that does happen. On a regular basis. Men judging women, women judging men, men judging men, women judging women, etc…..
@Danny: While it is true that both sides judge each other, feminism had taught women that it is ok to fight back but they teach men and boys that women are somehow more evolved and are above such human vagaries. Feminism and mainstream interests have also taught society that judgement only moves in one direction, against women.
Aya, I suspect because quite frankly there are a lot of shitty women out there, lots of cheaters so revenge porn is seen as a way to get back at them. The whole she broke my heart, I’ll spread shit about her thing. Seeing as a lot is fake I’d say it’s probably more commonly a fantasy vs actually done.
Archy–Many people get their hearts broken and many people break hearts. It happens all the time. It’s a part of life, it’s a part of growing as a person. I’ve been cheated on and I’ve cheated–it taught me a lot of lessons. No reason to publicly humiliate a person and ruin their relationships with friends, family, and employers.
@Aya, there is no shortage of revenge acts from burning his clothes, painting his car, some may even threaten them with false accusations of rape or abuse, some get stabbed or killed.
A lot of people get cheated on but that also means there are plenty even in the minority of cases who will do something vengeful. I don’t agree with any of it but it happens. The most I’d do to a cheater is to tell em to fuckoff n warn my friends against dating her but I’d want some pretty concrete evidence first.
That’s annoying how they judge models. As a photographer I have met a few models and every one of them so far I’ve met has had a lovely, nice nature to them. One I know is quite intelligent, funny, fun to be around, more people could take a note from her book definitely as her attitude is good. The only harsh words they had were over their own looks, which was sad but I guess it’s to be expected.
“There are a lot of nerds who don’t really let women into their ‘spaces,’ demand some crazy amount of nerd cred from them, or make them feel uncomfortable but then complain when they get ignored or rejected by women. It doesn’t make sense to me.”
Because often their only attention, or majority of attention was negative in the form of bullying, belittling them, etc. Imagine female DV shelter with a bunch of men walking through it but probably not as extreme as DV. They will rightly be wary of women if their experience is mostly negative from women, and I say rightly because it’s right for a person to be cautious of something that has hurt you a lot, it’s a very natural instinct even. They may think they are coming in just to fuck with them, might be coming in just to get attention from a bunch of men (seen this happen), or they could be genuinely interested.
I don’t agree with the behaviour but I do understand why it happens, to stop it you need to get women into gaming areas more to dilute the pool so to speak of good n bad experiences (hopefully all/mostly good experiences), and you need to stop the bullying that goes on in schools, etc beforehand. It’s a safe haven for many men who were bullied heavily, probably many who were bullied by women and geeky guys are probably easier for other geeky guys to pick out vs geeky girls who might still be wearing makeup n pretty clothing (the ones I saw still dressed up, probably more than most of the guys), so there could be a sense of are they really geeks? It’s pretty stupid but that’s a theory I have of what some may think and the vocal n negative minority are the problem.
Personally I didn’t care if there were women there, I preferred more women around because I saw the problem with male dominated spaces where you get this weird bullshit gendered behaviour, aggression n a bunch of egos clashing. Happens in female dominated spaces too. I dunno, something I just find weird about gendered spaces…I’ve always found nearly 50:50 mix of people in larger groups seems to work best?
@Aya:
Dr. Anonymous–The answer for the first 3 is to date a woman you mesh with, and someone with at least close to a corresponding level of education and/or intellectual curiosity
You know, that was exactly the point I took out of Dr. A’s post!
Blanket statements about “passion” like in the article here are totally useless as long as you don’t happen to find someone who shares that passion.
And we all know that there are areas where gender ratios are 5:1 or higher, with associated difficulties…
Case in point regarding the “passion” thing.
I read Aya’s link above http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22786_To_My_Someday_Daughter.html
I found it interesting, in these circumstances, that it included a reference to a guy who was dumped by his wife because he spent too much time and resources on his passion.
Seems to me that if a person has a passion that is not either shared by the partner, or at least to some other tangential benefit to said partner, sooner or later that passion will either face a heavy decline or lead to some kind of ultimatum in the relationship.
I don’t think people need to share each other’s passions to be turned on by them. I do think they have to *appreciate* each other’s passions. One of the most compatible couples I know are both PhD candidates, she in linguistics and he in neuroscience. They don’t want to pursue each other’s fields but they enjoy learning about them.
Now, if one of them thought the other’s field was boring or frivolous (there is a LOT of prejudice by technically minded men against the liberal arts – as if the only possible reason someone would choose to study literature or history is that they weren’t smart enough to be an engineer) it wouldn’t work.
Similarly with hobbies – it’s quite common for couples to have different hobbies. My grandfather was a passionate boatbuilder, my grandmother was a pianist. They both respected and valued each other’s talents without any expectation they would be shared. I agree with Dr. Carolyn above that too many geeky guys are fixated on finding a woman who likes EXACTLY what they do. You don’t have to share someone’s hobby to appreciate their passion for it.
That said, it is true that perfecting a skill that has benefits/applications in the real world, like music, robotics, cooking, etc. will be more attractive to people who don’t share it than a skill that only has applications in the game world. That fact is not gendered, though.
Unless of course the woman finds science hotter than indie hipster crap. They exist. I don’t much like indie hipster crap and am far more prone to social justice and science news. I’m beginning to think though that men don’t find those women attractive…
Plenty of women are shallow. Plenty of men are shallow. Plenty of people are shallow. I don’t know how this is news. The trick is to be deep enough to find the people who are deep enough to find you.
Wow, Julie! (And I mean this in a good way)
You know you just bypassed the whole Nerdlove article in just two short paragraphs…?
I win the internetz!
I’m not a fan of indie hipster ‘crap’ myself, but why put it down? People are allowed to like what they like. We all have different hobbies and passions.
Not my point. I was engaging in snarky tone to match the other comment. I have no issue with indie music, I’m just not a fan. Sigh.
Has it really come to this? I suppose it has. On behalf of all hobbies, I apologize. All are valid. My main point though, seems to have been lost.
It’s a heated topic. Sarcasm already doesn’t translate well over the internet but once a net discussion gets personal and heated the tolerance for sarcasm drops even more.
(I was actually thinking something similar to Aya but I was overjoyed by the paragraph after it I just don’t care if you were being sarcastic or not. And honestly since I know you are not a disciple of the Futrelle School of “Make an Insult and when called on it claim Snark” I’m not inclined to care much.)
I was being snarky and it’s early and I have sick kids at home and no coffee. I have good friends in hipster indie bands. I’m just not like a fan girl who’d clutch my pearls to date a musician. I’d far rather date an activist or someone who could blow my mind about how the universe works. I will say there are a number of cute musicians in the world though and the outfits can be nice. I’ve just found we’ve nothing to talk about.
Ok, sorry. It’s early in the morning.
It’s just I have issues when people claim that one hobby is superior to another and it seems to come up in a lot of circles.
No problem. I shouldn’t have said “crap” that was rude. Eh. No coffee.
Plenty of women are shallow. Plenty of men are shallow. Plenty of people are shallow. I don’t know how this is news. The trick is to be deep enough to find the people who are deep enough to find you.
It seems like news because advice columns have this uncanny ability to only acknowledge shallowness when it suits their own ends.
I think part of the reason FlyingKal is so happy with your short comment is because Nerdlove seems to be ignoring the shallowness of women while highlighting the shallowness of men. “It’s not that there are shallow women out there and you had the fortune of meeting them, no you’re so shallow that you are dooming any chance of connection of women from the get go.”
You’ve done something in one paragraph that NL and most of his eager fanbase haven’t done in multiple entire articles. Acknowledge the existence of shallow women and the experiences and frustration the of men that cross paths with them.
Congratulations.
And there are also people who are shallow in one respect but not in another. And there are people who are shallow at one point in their lives, but in another. Think of the desiring a ‘nerd girl’ thing that NL went through. That was pretty shallow, but he’s past that now. (It’s shallow not because he wanted someone who shared his tastes, but because he stereotyped a girl who presented herself as a nerd).
And there are also people who are shallow in one respect but not in another. And there are people who are shallow at one point in their lives, but in another.
I’d venture to say that most people are like that.
As a fellow supernerd (science PhD) who was fortunate to nearly literally trip over another supernerd (math guy) to form a superpartnership with lots of nerdy hobbies, tons of uncoolness, basic introversion, and a lack of fashion sense, I second Julie’s short-and-sweet summary!
Here’s a radical concept. Maybe, just maybe, in some cases at least, if you’re having a rough time with dating or romantic relationships, it’s nobody’s fault. It’s not your fault, it’s not women’s fault, it’s not patriarchy’s fault, and it’s not feminism’s fault. Sometimes life sucks. Sometimes life is “feast or famine.” Perhaps the message from the universe is that now is the time to spend your energy elsewhere, doing something more independent of dating, romantic love, sex, etc. Maybe the message is to re-evaluate what exactly you want out of life.
Saying that maybe nobody’s to blame has major disadvantages, of course. It doesn’t sell a lot of seminars or books. It doesn’t make internet gurus, and it won’t bring viewers to your blog. It doesn’t arouse loyalty or hatred. It doesn’t appeal to people’s sense of self-determination. It does not bring in the control freaks. It doesn’t inspire action like a good old-fashioned scapegoat ideology. You can’t burn an effigy of the evildoers for heat and light. It’s even harder to make a living saying that your self-perceived problems are nobody’s fault.
Maybe, just maybe, you know?
I heart you right now.
Aww, shucks. [*blush*]
I can’t take credit. I just write what the voices tell me to write….
I can’t disagree here.. With wellokaythen OR Julie.
Whoa hold on there man. Pointing out something bad that happens to people and saying that there may not be some person or entity that is to blame for it?
I know this this comment section has gotten a bit personal and heated but there’s no need for such crazy talk.
But seriously you pretty much right. I think the desire to have someone or something to blame or “hold responsible” for the bad things that happen to people is a way to given it an identity. Once it has an identity it become more identifiable, more acceptable. From there the loyalty and hatred come in, as you need something or someone to be loyal to or be angry at.
(Of course that loyalty/hatred may sometimes influence the creation of the identity. For example giving credit for something good happening to someone/something that actually had no hand it it or blaming someone/something for something bad happening when they had no hand in it.)
It becomes easier to point at that person/thing and say, “That is the reason so and so happened!”. People seem to need that. And not just to make themselves feel better in the form of putting the blame/credit on someone else but by putting some sort of “face” on it.
Thanks.
I also wonder if going through a rough patch in your dating life is totally a “bad thing” in the first place. There’s that whole “when life hands you lemons, find a silver lining” thingamajig.
Even more radical concept, maybe: there’s no one to blame for the bad thing, because maybe it’s not such a bad thing after all….
I also wonder if going through a rough patch in your dating life is totally a “bad thing” in the first place. There’s that whole “when life hands you lemons, find a silver lining” thingamajig.
I would say that yes it is because one’s dating life is just like any other “life”, vulnerable to ups and downs and highs and low. Losing out on a big promotion (professional life). A sudden severe medical emergency (physical life). Getting into a friendship ending argument with someone (personal life).
There might be cases where it may not be a bad thing after looking it over with a clear head but I’m not too keen on just flatly saying that no its not. It’s one thing to advocate that one shouldn’t get too hung up on rough patches. It’s quite another to advocate that one should act like those rough patches aren’t real or delude oneself into thinking they are not bad. I’m all for working though the lows, but I’m not for pretending the lows don’t exist.
Even more radical concept, maybe: there’s no one to blame for the bad thing, because maybe it’s not such a bad thing after all….
In accordance with your “maybe” I can agree with this happening sometimes.
I agree about not making absolute statements. “Maybe sometimes” is the key.
I also like your point about putting a face on things. It’s natural and good to try to find what the meaning is to something a person’s going through. Sometimes that might come across as blame-y even when it’s not.
I think what happens when love and sex are involved is that people very easily lose perspective. (That’s one of the wonderful things about love and sex in the first place.) The mind becomes a pendulum. When you have a crush on a woman, she’s “unlike all other women.” If you feel rejected by her, suddenly she’s “exactly like all other women.” The more pain you’re in, the easier it is to lash out, and the simpler your thinking becomes.
[I don’t mean “you” specifically. It’s a general “you.”]
It’s important to recognize one’s pain and be in touch with one’s feelings, but there needs to be a balance with the rational side, or you’ll go insane. Everyone needs to take a breath and think about the evidence before rushing to a natural law of human behavior – being turned down for dates by a total of 4 women means you know what all women want in a man? I don’t think so.
None of this is meant to discount how many men feel about rejection or about gender expectations. I would recommend a healthy skepticism about conclusions reached while in the depths of pain and anger.
Danny:
“But seriously you pretty much right. I think the desire to have someone or something to blame or “hold responsible” for the bad things that happen to people is a way to given it an identity.”
While I don’t think that anybody is to blame for not loving or not liking somebody, they are surely responsible. Not that I think anybody else should hold them responsible, but I look closely at how people turn down somebody and draw my conclusions about their character.
Here is my reasoning why I am responsible for who I love/like and for who I don’t.
1.I am fully responsible for my feelings in any given situation.
2.Loving somebody is an action (or rather a set of actions) which is motivated by feelings.
3.If I don’t love somebody, who loves me, I am hurting them.
4.Because of 1. and 2., I am responsible in situatio 3.
Now if somebody doesn’t love/like me, it is useless and unfair to appeal to their sense of their responsibility for me hurting.
Now if somebody doesn’t love/like me, it is useless and unfair to appeal to their sense of their responsibility for me hurting.
By itself I can agree with that. Person A turns down Person B. Simple.
What makes it complicated and hurtful is when you have people passing around the ideas like you have to have a certain “it” in order to be considered attractive, people who say one thing in terms of what they are attacted by act on another, etc…
Well,
there are factors which make you more attractive, though I would question if it is a good idea to try to find love by reaching for conventional beauty; it shows a lack of confidence at least. What really angers me, is when people judge your goodness by how popular/attractive you are. It seems really difficult for people to accept the imperfection of the dating world. The fact, that good people will get hurt, without any fault of their own and the right of the romantically unsuccessful one to complain and be angry, because of their fate.
@wellokaythen, I Ilike your thought that maybe it’s no one’s fault. It may not seem very satisfying to someone who is struggling, but it beats the fairly woeful alternative attitudes.
One of the things that strikes me about this discussion is the surprise and often bitter disappointment some men express when it’s suggested that women like men they like to look at. We all know this on some level, but men are encouraged to believe that women will love us because of crying or poetry. Actually, women probably will love us because of crying or poetry, but being a crying poet won’t typically generate romantic interest unless someone finds us at least a bit physically attractive. I know, I’ve tried.
The other part of this that may not apply to any of the men posting here but I believe it’s part of the cultural narrative. Women are the prize, especially conventionally attractive women. These women are a prize and in our egalitarian culture every man can and in fact should compete for that prize, regardless of whether he is as conventionally attractive as she is. It motivates us to behave and be productive or something? Experience supports this part of the narrative, because of course most hetero couples are made up of extremely attractive women and balding 55 yr old men, one of which i’m rumored to be. That’s sarcasm, except for the part about me.
In the few instances where I’ve actually known men who consistently fail with women, meaning they try to date and get rejected often, the men have frankly been approaching women who have tons of options. Women who are that conventionally attractive prize and who are these days often more accomplished than the guy as well.
The men I’m thinking of were actually decent, ordinary men who I suspect would react quite defensively at my assessment, but I think that was a part of their issue. These men aimed for women who typically attracted much more conventionally attractive men, and in my experience for lots of reasons people tend to pair up with people about as attractive as they are. Of course individual tastes skew this a bit, but on average with a large enough group conventional beauties end up together, and so on.
When these men click off their truly admirable qualities the one trait that is left is their moderate level of attractiveness to explain their “failure”. I’m not agreeing that being moderately attractive or totally unattractive is of any enduring importance, but in this narrative it is. And a women or women are choosing to deny these regular guys the prize, which is surprising and frustrating and ultimately seems like some kind of betrayal of trust.
The shame of it is that most regular looking guys who don’t play this rigged game pair up with regular looking women or other regular looking men and have lots of fun and sex and it’s pretty good. That doesn’t seem to be a part of this particular narrative, though.
Adrian,
I don’t think anyone here is surprised or bitterly disappointed to hear that “women like men they like to look at”. The disappointment comes from the fact that women will deny, deny, deny that looks are important to them and come up with a list of things they _really_ like in a man (like nerdlove’s list), yet will continually demonstrate that looks are what is important. Then they come back when you call them out on it and come up with a litany of excuses as to why it just so happens the reason they are with a good looking guy is the exception.
I don’t care and am not bothered by the fact they like good looking men. I like good looking women. All I’m asking is for women to own up to it.
Jimbo,
It seems to me several women have said they like looking at good looking men. They may do so a bit relauctantly because that’s part of the story. Women know that the story expects them to be above their urges and desires. But still, several in this thread have admitted it readily. What does that “admission” really accomplish? It seems that someone has an “ah hah” moment and then the women are designated outliers and the discussion continues as if their comment/admission never happened.
@Adrian..
What does that “admission” really accomplish? That’s like asking what does confessing to a crime does. It’s called telling the truth and being honest.
It’s honest discourse. You cannot seek honesty from someone while you remain disingenuous. Maybe this is why all this PUA stuff abounds? Perhaps it is an attempt to level the playing field….It’s deceptive practices for sure if I understand it (PUA). But, so are women who deny they like looking at good looking men. Right?
@Jules
I think the PUA stuff abounds because some men truly struggle with women, and many men feel at least some insecurities and the PUA pitchmen seize on those struggles and heighten those insecurities and then offer an antedote.
As far as women’s honesty on this matter, one of the women participating in this thread might better answer your question. All I”ll do is repeat my point that several women have said that looks are important to them, and yet something more is expected from them. That’s what I’m getting at when I ask what good such a comment does, when the comment is dismissed or compartmentalized into insignificance. Something more than honesty seems to be desired.
Well, if I take this question literally, it’s because the maximum rate at which a mammalian species can reproduce is limited far more by the number of available uteruses than it is by the number of available testicles.
Also, according to DNA studies, this hypothesis actually is correct, at least over the time scale of tens of thousands of years: a much greater percentage of men died childless than did women. (The link has technical details.) I’ll leave the speculating about the social and psychological consequences of this to other people.
@ Jules I think,of course I could be wrong, that Adrian’s point is that the “honesty” is somewhat inconsequential to the discussion moving forward.The denial remains as the honest narrative. I find it a bit odd, considering all of the evidence, that anyone would believe that looks don’t matter to women. Go to the romance section of any bookstore and simple look at the men on the covers of the books,or go a Justin Beiber,Julio Iglesias, or to a Chippendale show or any of the other thousands of strip shows around the world and ask that question. As far as women denying the truth because of social conditioning, maybe in the 19th century. The real question is, why the denial. What is gained? One thing about human behavior,male or female, that is remarkably consistent is that it is selfserving.
This Dr. Who (yes I am a nerd) quote describes how it works for me:
“You know when sometimes you meet someone so beautiful and then you actually talk to them and five minutes later they’re as dull as a brick? Then there’s other people, when you meet them you think, ‘Not bad. They’re okay.’ And then you get to know them and… and their face just sort of becomes them. Like their personality’s written all over it. And they just turn into something so beautiful.”
The guys I’ve dated have not been rich and powerful, conventionally attractive, “alpha” types, etc. but they have all grown on me as I got to know them because of a myriad of traits that were unique to each of them. What *I* find attractive in a man is different than what my close friends, my sister, or other women may describe. I think that’s part of the frustration/mystery of dating…there’s no formula or pattern or generalization that works for everyone. Chemistry/compatibility/attraction is something you can’t describe much of the time, but you know it when you feel it.
That being said, in the spirit of “it gets better”, much of the dating frustration, gender generalizations, and bad dating behaviour I hear (and believe completely) from commenters here tends to dampen out (from what I’ve observed) as people get older and more secure/more experienced. I’d never want to go back to dating in my 20s…that was the worst! My partner and I were both total late bloomers who didn’t get much attention or play until we sort of grew into our adult looks/personalities in our 30s and beyond. People “peak” at different times in life and don’t believe that your life is over if you’re not partnered by X age!
I have this sneaking suspicion that there’s so much subconsciuos stuff going around regarding attraction that we really can’t tell why we’re attracted to someone.
Basically I think that instead of being attracted to “good” qualities, we are prone to assign good qualities to the people we are atracted to…
Very good point. Sometimes when we think we’ve made a conscious decision, we’re actually just rationalizing an unconscious decision we already made.
Certainly when people fall in love they usually idealize the person so much that they create all sorts of explanations for why they’re attracted to this other person, even if they’ve never been attracted to someone like that before.
@Flyin Kal: I think you are right. Unfortunately, these conversations on the thread seem to be based on ones personal experience, preferences and whatever education they may have had. Usually what happens is that the overwhelming influence of biology on matters of the heart gets left out of the analysis. A example would be that study after study demonstrate that women have and use power in the initiation phases of relationships often relinquishing some of it to allow him to assume control at the point of copulation.
Much of this behavior is cloaked and operates through subtle verbal but mostly body language cues. Cues,which many times are convoluted, misunderstood and allow the woman to exert power and control without the confronting the burden of power when it is abused. This dynamic mirrors common complaints that many men have about relating to women in this area. Consider flirting. Flirting allows women to play, cajole, get favors, have fun, experiment with their power, while simultaneously maintaining deny-ability of their true intent.
Just had a realization.
The flip side of the “maybe it’s nobody’s fault,” the dark side perhaps, is that sometimes there really is nothing you could have done differently.
Sometimes she just was not attracted to you, and nothing you could have done would have changed that. In some cases, there is nothing you could have done to alter your appearance enough to make you attractive to her. Or, there is no way to change your actual personality enough that she would be attracted to you. You can’t actually go out and buy a sense of humor.
Sometimes people may not want to admit that women care about a man’s looks because we don’t want to let go of the idea of the self-made man. To accept that women may care about looks is to admit that I as a man don’t have all the power or all the responsibility. What do you mean I’m not in control of my own destiny? What do you mean I can’t make every woman like me? It’s to accept that there are things outside my control, which could be MUCH scarier than thinking maybe I just need better pick-up lines. There’s that thing often associated with masculinity where you think “I can fix this, I know I can, I just have to find out how.” Letting go of that can be pretty disorienting.
Accepting that women care about looks might also encourage more men to give up. It might encourage the goodlooking men from trying to be multidimensional. There’s a lot invested in the idea that women don’t care much about a man’s looks, whether that idea is true or not.
Accepting that women care about looks might also encourage more men to give up. It might encourage the goodlooking men from trying to be multidimensional. There’s a lot invested in the idea that women don’t care much about a man’s looks, whether that idea is true or not.
Or at the least expose some a “new” dimension of the potential the shallowness of women. And it also may serve to show that as you say it’s really not his fault. She’s just not that into you and there is nothing you did wrong. You just don’t match up.
But as others have said already that kind of stuff doesn’t make the headlines on advice columns, where the goal is to build readers up, even if that means tearing others down.
Hmmm goodlooking men…..no most goodlooking men are not necessarly hot to me…..I personally will pick the strongest. But the strongest is certainly not the most buff or athletic, it can be other winning qualities as long as the rest of his qualities is average enough to survive.
Here is my list
(yeah very subjective and unscientific but this altough personal is an example of a womans requirementlist for finding a mating partner. Instead of social acceptable answers I gave what I am really looking for in a mate to give my offspring the best chance for survival)
-scent : i must enjoy his natural smell
-eyes: straight ahead cause I do not mate with bunnies, any defect is a No, eyes must be bright and contain a certain amount of intensity.
-nose/ears: i am typical about noses and ears, I like noses reasonably prominent, ears developed yet unprominent otherwise I can’t stop staring.
-hair; straight and thick please
-shape: anything but not skinny or shorter then me. must have strong ankles!
-horoscope: need to fit with mine
-personality: an energy level that matches mine, humourous, sweet, extremely bright, pride, ruthless in fight/conquest, no pettyness, demanding, preferably dominant, affectionate, stamina, social intelligence/ability to manipulate, posessive, creative intelligence, happy by nature, opportunistic, not nagging and a healthy amount of frustration, reasonable risktaker, ability to build, adjust and create.
….Or just be an asshole to her and she will never want to leave you.
Some women are actually visually impaired, so they don’t go by looks whatsoever, because they can’t.
I’d be curious what they say about what they’re looking for in a man, and if it’s comparable to what sighted women say.
@Archy: If there is any doubt whether women count looks as a determinate for having sex and or other kinds of involvement with men why is there a Magic Mike ad running on this site? Magic Mike is, I think, a chick flick about the male stripper INDUSTRY, WHICH IS WORLD WIDE.
I think one thing I always fall for regularly is kindness. It’s hard to find someone sincerely kind and driven to be kind to others with boundless openess. So when I see a man show geniunine kindness for other people no matter their looks, age, race of gender; and he goes the extra mile with that kindness, it always pulls on my heart strings.
This. kindness, why kindness are never on the list of attractiveness on men and women? Because i know i can attracted to pretty woman, confident woman, mature woman, but only kindness makes me always think about her, anytime, anywhere. Only kindness makes me fall in love with her. Its makes me wonder so few people appreciate kindness today. Its all about confidence ,sense of humor, and looks. What uses of them if shes not kind to other people, animals, and me?
Maybe this is why i like kids so much. Their heart are so pure, genuine. My little cousins cried when he sees little pigeon died. He ask me to carry him to the park because wanted to give foods to lots of birds there, oh how sweet. That kind of kindness, pure loving hearts. When my gf cried seeing a news about murder or suicide, its whats make me remember why i love her so much. I love her loving heart.
There may be a time-factor as well.
There’s probably a difference between what makes a man attractive early on, at first glance, and what makes him attractive as you get to know him more. The attractiveness of a stranger you just met for the first time may be different than the attractiveness of a man on your first date with him, which is different from what makes him attractive on the fourth date, which may be different from what attracts you when he’s been your friend for a few years.
One woman with very consistent preferences may nonetheless like different attributes in different situations. Maximizing your attractiveness for a blind date may be different from maximizing it in another circumstance.
Depends, depends, depends.
Just for the record, genetic analysis shows that the majority of males did not successfully mate back in the good old days of pre history. Only about 40% did.
This obviously isn’t true anymore, but perhaps the chip on men’s shoulders’ in this regard is genetic rather than social. An inherited gripe if you will.
And here’s the citation for those of you that care (see under heading: The Most Underappreciated Fact): http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm
There’s a related genetic study that Mr. Baumeister e-mailed to me. It’s rather interesting and explains a great many things about why men do what they do and why women don’t seem to do those same things.
Anyways…
The Wet One
seems fairly obvious that in polygamous societies, not all men will be able to reproduce. Most hunter gatherer societies allow men to have as many wives as they can support by hunting. In practical terms that usually means 1-3 wives, from what I recall of anthropology. But that still means there are more available men than available women. That’s why monogamy was probably invented (it goes back to the Romans I believe) to improve social stability by ensuring the majority of men in the working and middle classes could have a wife and family. (Upper class men could still have harems of concubines) Look at what is happening in China now with their severe gender imbalance – not good for their society in the long run.
Are those women going for higher status men? The available guys are lower status? If so they will have to lower their standards. It’s like hearing from some highly educated, high earning women that they want men who earn at least the same as they do and whinge about a man drought, when really the problem is they’ve thrown out 95% of the men because they’re in the top 5% of earners and the men at their level probably haven’t had the same requirements for a partner and so the supply of eligible men is far lower.
Believe it or not, monogamy is actually a better deal for many men than it is for some women. I wouldn’t mind a ‘sister wives’ situation at all. As long as there was good communication and I actually got along with the other woman/women. As long as he made us all feel special to him and had enough libido to go around. He couldn’t play favorites. Of course, there’d be days or weeks when he might be fighting with or annoyed with one wife, but that’s likely to shift. And there’d be tiffs between wives, but as with any relationship, you get through those. And hey, if one of us ever became pregnant or was suffering from illness or a temporary loss of libido, he could just get his sexual relief from another wife without having to stray from the relationship. I’d rather he be having honest sex with someone I know and like than he risk STDs, see him watch porn of 18 year olds, or worry that he might think he’s fallen in love during that novelty phase. You also have a built in support system, friends, and a family to help share the work. And I get turned on when my partner is turned on. As long as he sees me as special and beautiful to him, and I can continue to turn him on–it’s not really that much of a problem if he’s having sex with another woman, as long as she’s not a bitch to me or anything.
Sorry, i find your idea bizarre. You can share your man for sex, but how can you share your man for love? How can you feel special when your man also in love with another woman? From my experience as a man, when i fall in love, i fall in love with ONE woman. I cannot share my love to other woman. I want to make her feel special and feel shes the only woman i really love and lust for. How can i do that in polygamous relationship? I rather have my gf watch porn ( like she usually do ) than she is having sex with another man. You would have your man have sex with another woman rather than watch porn? Weird…….
Try looking at polygamy from the comparison of having children. You can have one child or you can have 5 children. It doesn’t mean you love any of those children any less or that you think any one of them is more special than the other just because you don’t have an only child. You love every one of your children with all of your heart. I do believe a man with multiple wives can truly love all of them and have sexual desire for all of them. Sure, there will be jealousy and drama, but there’s jealousy and drama in pretty much every relationship at times. It really is possible for some people to love romantically more than one person at a time.
Good article, definitely agree on all of it.
Passion and confidence are MUCH more important than just physical looks.
Not many people say it like it is, props to you.
Also, if anyone is interested on more info on how to become an attractive man and create an amazing life for yourself, then check out my men’s help site at http://www.RealMenLifestyle.com
Cheers guys,
Zach