Doctor NerdLove investigates the complaint that only certain types of guys get all the women.
Originally appeared at Paging Doctor NerdLove
There are few questions more frustrating than “What’s he got that I ain’t got?”
It’s a long-running complaint amongst some men that only “certain” guys get all the women1 – the so-called “alpha males” who are tall, dark and handsome assholes with lantern jaws, fast cars, a six-pack and seven figure salary. All other men are just shit out of luck and may as well jump off a cliff; they’re evolutionary dead-ends, forever doomed to be unable to spread their seed and carry on their genetic lineage.
Women, others insist, are interested only in hypergamy; only men who offer some means of rising socially or economically are the ones getting all the sexing. Others will say that geeks are shut out because of a prejudice against brains or the socially awkward. Still others have equally arcane ideas of what women – apparently a monolithic entity of vast and unimaginable social power – want.
The common denominator in all these ideas boils down to “something other than me”. The rest of it tends to be a mishmash of theories on what women want (or actually want, rather than what they say they do..) that explains why someone who isn’t them is getting all the sexing. I can relate; God knows I spent enough time in my youth believing that there were two types of dudes in the world: the ones who women found attractive and everybody else. And I was very firmly in the latter category.
Of course, this begs the question of “if only a certain percentage of men get the majority of the women, why haven’t we died out as a species?”
Wait: wrong question. The question is: “How do you know that this is what women find attractive?” The answer is usually a variation of “this is what the media tells me” or “this is what I see all around me every day.”
The problem with this is that, frankly, the plural of “anecdote” isn’t “data”. People are prone to blind spots when it comes to a deeply held beliefs, an intellectual fallacy known as “confirmation bias”; that is, we’re only seeing the things that back up what we already believe and dismissing (or simply not seeing) everything else.
So rather than going on about Studly Good-Night at the club with his Maserati and $4,000 suit is the only one women like, I wanted to get down to what women really find attractive. So I asked them.
Flipping The Attraction Switches
Over on the Dr. NerdLove Facebook page and Twitter feed, I put out the call for women to weigh in on what they found attractive in men – not just in looks but in personality, behavior and lifestyle. Now while I’ll be the first to say that this was not by any stretch of the imagination a scientific study or formal poll, the results are, I think, fairly indicative of what women – predominantly 18-34 and cutting across many ethnic and religious demographics – like.
Now obviously there was a fairly wide variety in what people liked; after all, aside from some baseline factors built in that encourage survival of the species – facial symmetry, outward signs of physical health and ability to sire/bear offspring – what we find attractive tends to change based on cultural and emotional influences.
But there were certain areas – call them attraction switches – that came up over and over again. The men who successfully hit these switches are the ones who are most often seen as “attractive”.
Women are drawn to men with passion in their lives. Too many people are content to simply exist, following a routine of “wake up, eat, work, eat, sleep, repeat” day in and day out, living out Thoroeu’s “lives of quiet desperation”. People with passion in their lives are driven. They don’t just meander or float through life, they have purpose. They have something they live for, something they care about with an intensity that you just don’t see often. There’s a part of their life that brings them fulfilment, that pushes them on and inspires them.
People who have passion are interesting. They have a certainty and assuredness about them because they love what they’re passionate about whole-heartedly and don’t worry about “maybe I shouldn’t get this excited over my favorite bands” or “maybe I should act my age instead of waxing rhapsodic about the power that books have over me”
Even if it’s not a passion that they both share, when someone is passionate about something and knows how to express that passion in a clear and attractive manner, it’s very hard not to get caught up in their enthusiasm and carried along by it.
Next: “Confidence is the #2 cliché of what women find attractive”
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Good article, definitely agree on all of it.
Passion and confidence are MUCH more important than just physical looks.
Not many people say it like it is, props to you.
Also, if anyone is interested on more info on how to become an attractive man and create an amazing life for yourself, then check out my men’s help site at http://www.RealMenLifestyle.com
Just for the record, genetic analysis shows that the majority of males did not successfully mate back in the good old days of pre history. Only about 40% did. This obviously isn’t true anymore, but perhaps the chip on men’s shoulders’ in this regard is genetic rather than social. An inherited gripe if you will. And here’s the citation for those of you that care (see under heading: The Most Underappreciated Fact): http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm There’s a related genetic study that Mr. Baumeister e-mailed to me. It’s rather interesting and explains a great many things about why men do what they do… Read more »
seems fairly obvious that in polygamous societies, not all men will be able to reproduce. Most hunter gatherer societies allow men to have as many wives as they can support by hunting. In practical terms that usually means 1-3 wives, from what I recall of anthropology. But that still means there are more available men than available women. That’s why monogamy was probably invented (it goes back to the Romans I believe) to improve social stability by ensuring the majority of men in the working and middle classes could have a wife and family. (Upper class men could still have… Read more »
Are those women going for higher status men? The available guys are lower status? If so they will have to lower their standards. It’s like hearing from some highly educated, high earning women that they want men who earn at least the same as they do and whinge about a man drought, when really the problem is they’ve thrown out 95% of the men because they’re in the top 5% of earners and the men at their level probably haven’t had the same requirements for a partner and so the supply of eligible men is far lower.
Believe it or not, monogamy is actually a better deal for many men than it is for some women. I wouldn’t mind a ‘sister wives’ situation at all. As long as there was good communication and I actually got along with the other woman/women. As long as he made us all feel special to him and had enough libido to go around. He couldn’t play favorites. Of course, there’d be days or weeks when he might be fighting with or annoyed with one wife, but that’s likely to shift. And there’d be tiffs between wives, but as with any relationship,… Read more »
Sorry, i find your idea bizarre. You can share your man for sex, but how can you share your man for love? How can you feel special when your man also in love with another woman? From my experience as a man, when i fall in love, i fall in love with ONE woman. I cannot share my love to other woman. I want to make her feel special and feel shes the only woman i really love and lust for. How can i do that in polygamous relationship? I rather have my gf watch porn ( like she usually… Read more »
Try looking at polygamy from the comparison of having children. You can have one child or you can have 5 children. It doesn’t mean you love any of those children any less or that you think any one of them is more special than the other just because you don’t have an only child. You love every one of your children with all of your heart. I do believe a man with multiple wives can truly love all of them and have sexual desire for all of them. Sure, there will be jealousy and drama, but there’s jealousy and drama… Read more »
Archie you are spot on and Ms wetone..while I agree the original “survey” is fine..it really applies to uppermiddle class western women. I am thinking of the 5billion other men and women on earth who work too hard, are still poor, and there isn’t much opportunity for things like “Passioniate Hobbies, etc”. and yes, I admit I am one of those confused lonely men and plenty old (now) that can’t figure out what my problem is.
There may be a time-factor as well. There’s probably a difference between what makes a man attractive early on, at first glance, and what makes him attractive as you get to know him more. The attractiveness of a stranger you just met for the first time may be different than the attractiveness of a man on your first date with him, which is different from what makes him attractive on the fourth date, which may be different from what attracts you when he’s been your friend for a few years. One woman with very consistent preferences may nonetheless like different… Read more »
I think one thing I always fall for regularly is kindness. It’s hard to find someone sincerely kind and driven to be kind to others with boundless openess. So when I see a man show geniunine kindness for other people no matter their looks, age, race of gender; and he goes the extra mile with that kindness, it always pulls on my heart strings.
This. kindness, why kindness are never on the list of attractiveness on men and women? Because i know i can attracted to pretty woman, confident woman, mature woman, but only kindness makes me always think about her, anytime, anywhere. Only kindness makes me fall in love with her. Its makes me wonder so few people appreciate kindness today. Its all about confidence ,sense of humor, and looks. What uses of them if shes not kind to other people, animals, and me? Maybe this is why i like kids so much. Their heart are so pure, genuine. My little cousins cried… Read more »
@Archy: If there is any doubt whether women count looks as a determinate for having sex and or other kinds of involvement with men why is there a Magic Mike ad running on this site? Magic Mike is, I think, a chick flick about the male stripper INDUSTRY, WHICH IS WORLD WIDE.
Some women are actually visually impaired, so they don’t go by looks whatsoever, because they can’t.
I’d be curious what they say about what they’re looking for in a man, and if it’s comparable to what sighted women say.
….Or just be an asshole to her and she will never want to leave you.
Unless you want a woman who is attracted to unhealthy relationships;) If not, I suggest to go and deal with your anger and bitterness (because you obviously have tons of it).
Just had a realization. The flip side of the “maybe it’s nobody’s fault,” the dark side perhaps, is that sometimes there really is nothing you could have done differently. Sometimes she just was not attracted to you, and nothing you could have done would have changed that. In some cases, there is nothing you could have done to alter your appearance enough to make you attractive to her. Or, there is no way to change your actual personality enough that she would be attracted to you. You can’t actually go out and buy a sense of humor. Sometimes people may… Read more »
Accepting that women care about looks might also encourage more men to give up. It might encourage the goodlooking men from trying to be multidimensional. There’s a lot invested in the idea that women don’t care much about a man’s looks, whether that idea is true or not. Or at the least expose some a “new” dimension of the potential the shallowness of women. And it also may serve to show that as you say it’s really not his fault. She’s just not that into you and there is nothing you did wrong. You just don’t match up. But as… Read more »
Hmmm goodlooking men…..no most goodlooking men are not necessarly hot to me…..I personally will pick the strongest. But the strongest is certainly not the most buff or athletic, it can be other winning qualities as long as the rest of his qualities is average enough to survive. Here is my list (yeah very subjective and unscientific but this altough personal is an example of a womans requirementlist for finding a mating partner. Instead of social acceptable answers I gave what I am really looking for in a mate to give my offspring the best chance for survival) -scent : i… Read more »
@Flyin Kal: I think you are right. Unfortunately, these conversations on the thread seem to be based on ones personal experience, preferences and whatever education they may have had. Usually what happens is that the overwhelming influence of biology on matters of the heart gets left out of the analysis. A example would be that study after study demonstrate that women have and use power in the initiation phases of relationships often relinquishing some of it to allow him to assume control at the point of copulation. Much of this behavior is cloaked and operates through subtle verbal but mostly… Read more »
I have this sneaking suspicion that there’s so much subconsciuos stuff going around regarding attraction that we really can’t tell why we’re attracted to someone.
Basically I think that instead of being attracted to “good” qualities, we are prone to assign good qualities to the people we are atracted to…
Very good point. Sometimes when we think we’ve made a conscious decision, we’re actually just rationalizing an unconscious decision we already made.
Certainly when people fall in love they usually idealize the person so much that they create all sorts of explanations for why they’re attracted to this other person, even if they’ve never been attracted to someone like that before.
This Dr. Who (yes I am a nerd) quote describes how it works for me: “You know when sometimes you meet someone so beautiful and then you actually talk to them and five minutes later they’re as dull as a brick? Then there’s other people, when you meet them you think, ‘Not bad. They’re okay.’ And then you get to know them and… and their face just sort of becomes them. Like their personality’s written all over it. And they just turn into something so beautiful.” The guys I’ve dated have not been rich and powerful, conventionally attractive, “alpha” types,… Read more »
@ Jules I think,of course I could be wrong, that Adrian’s point is that the “honesty” is somewhat inconsequential to the discussion moving forward.The denial remains as the honest narrative. I find it a bit odd, considering all of the evidence, that anyone would believe that looks don’t matter to women. Go to the romance section of any bookstore and simple look at the men on the covers of the books,or go a Justin Beiber,Julio Iglesias, or to a Chippendale show or any of the other thousands of strip shows around the world and ask that question. As far as… Read more »
Of course, this begs the question of “if only a certain percentage of men get the majority of the women, why haven’t we died out as a species?” Well, if I take this question literally, it’s because the maximum rate at which a mammalian species can reproduce is limited far more by the number of available uteruses than it is by the number of available testicles. Also, according to DNA studies, this hypothesis actually is correct, at least over the time scale of tens of thousands of years: a much greater percentage of men died childless than did women. (The… Read more »
@wellokaythen, I Ilike your thought that maybe it’s no one’s fault. It may not seem very satisfying to someone who is struggling, but it beats the fairly woeful alternative attitudes. One of the things that strikes me about this discussion is the surprise and often bitter disappointment some men express when it’s suggested that women like men they like to look at. We all know this on some level, but men are encouraged to believe that women will love us because of crying or poetry. Actually, women probably will love us because of crying or poetry, but being a crying… Read more »
Adrian, I don’t think anyone here is surprised or bitterly disappointed to hear that “women like men they like to look at”. The disappointment comes from the fact that women will deny, deny, deny that looks are important to them and come up with a list of things they _really_ like in a man (like nerdlove’s list), yet will continually demonstrate that looks are what is important. Then they come back when you call them out on it and come up with a litany of excuses as to why it just so happens the reason they are with a good… Read more »
It seems to me several women have said they like looking at good looking men. They may do so a bit relauctantly because that’s part of the story. Women know that the story expects them to be above their urges and desires. But still, several in this thread have admitted it readily. What does that “admission” really accomplish? It seems that someone has an “ah hah” moment and then the women are designated outliers and the discussion continues as if their comment/admission never happened.
What does that “admission” really accomplish? That’s like asking what does confessing to a crime does. It’s called telling the truth and being honest.
It’s honest discourse. You cannot seek honesty from someone while you remain disingenuous. Maybe this is why all this PUA stuff abounds? Perhaps it is an attempt to level the playing field….It’s deceptive practices for sure if I understand it (PUA). But, so are women who deny they like looking at good looking men. Right?
@Julia Byrd I think the PUA stuff abounds because some men truly struggle with women, and many men feel at least some insecurities and the PUA pitchmen seize on those struggles and heighten those insecurities and then offer an antedote. As far as women’s honesty on this matter, one of the women participating in this thread might better answer your question. All I”ll do is repeat my point that several women have said that looks are important to them, and yet something more is expected from them. That’s what I’m getting at when I ask what good such a comment… Read more »
I always tell I care how a man looks like and I have no issues owning up to it. Peoples reactions? Women agree. Men start preaching on how shallow I am. How many women will express they care how a man looks like when they know most men will assume they are fatally flawed because of wanting an attractive partner?
And, to own up to the fact that they are way more attracted to bad boys, sociopaths and criminals than they care to
Here’s a radical concept. Maybe, just maybe, in some cases at least, if you’re having a rough time with dating or romantic relationships, it’s nobody’s fault. It’s not your fault, it’s not women’s fault, it’s not patriarchy’s fault, and it’s not feminism’s fault. Sometimes life sucks. Sometimes life is “feast or famine.” Perhaps the message from the universe is that now is the time to spend your energy elsewhere, doing something more independent of dating, romantic love, sex, etc. Maybe the message is to re-evaluate what exactly you want out of life. Saying that maybe nobody’s to blame has major… Read more »
I heart you right now.
Aww, shucks. [*blush*]
I can’t take credit. I just write what the voices tell me to write….
I can’t disagree here.. With wellokaythen OR Julie.
Whoa hold on there man. Pointing out something bad that happens to people and saying that there may not be some person or entity that is to blame for it? I know this this comment section has gotten a bit personal and heated but there’s no need for such crazy talk. But seriously you pretty much right. I think the desire to have someone or something to blame or “hold responsible” for the bad things that happen to people is a way to given it an identity. Once it has an identity it become more identifiable, more acceptable. From there… Read more »
I also wonder if going through a rough patch in your dating life is totally a “bad thing” in the first place. There’s that whole “when life hands you lemons, find a silver lining” thingamajig.
Even more radical concept, maybe: there’s no one to blame for the bad thing, because maybe it’s not such a bad thing after all….
I also wonder if going through a rough patch in your dating life is totally a “bad thing” in the first place. There’s that whole “when life hands you lemons, find a silver lining” thingamajig. I would say that yes it is because one’s dating life is just like any other “life”, vulnerable to ups and downs and highs and low. Losing out on a big promotion (professional life). A sudden severe medical emergency (physical life). Getting into a friendship ending argument with someone (personal life). There might be cases where it may not be a bad thing after looking… Read more »
I agree about not making absolute statements. “Maybe sometimes” is the key. I also like your point about putting a face on things. It’s natural and good to try to find what the meaning is to something a person’s going through. Sometimes that might come across as blame-y even when it’s not. I think what happens when love and sex are involved is that people very easily lose perspective. (That’s one of the wonderful things about love and sex in the first place.) The mind becomes a pendulum. When you have a crush on a woman, she’s “unlike all other… Read more »
Danny: “But seriously you pretty much right. I think the desire to have someone or something to blame or “hold responsible” for the bad things that happen to people is a way to given it an identity.” While I don’t think that anybody is to blame for not loving or not liking somebody, they are surely responsible. Not that I think anybody else should hold them responsible, but I look closely at how people turn down somebody and draw my conclusions about their character. Here is my reasoning why I am responsible for who I love/like and for who I… Read more »
Now if somebody doesn’t love/like me, it is useless and unfair to appeal to their sense of their responsibility for me hurting.
By itself I can agree with that. Person A turns down Person B. Simple.
What makes it complicated and hurtful is when you have people passing around the ideas like you have to have a certain “it” in order to be considered attractive, people who say one thing in terms of what they are attacted by act on another, etc…
there are factors which make you more attractive, though I would question if it is a good idea to try to find love by reaching for conventional beauty; it shows a lack of confidence at least. What really angers me, is when people judge your goodness by how popular/attractive you are. It seems really difficult for people to accept the imperfection of the dating world. The fact, that good people will get hurt, without any fault of their own and the right of the romantically unsuccessful one to complain and be angry, because of their fate.
Let me translate this. 1. Passion What is meant is that you should be passionate about the right thing and in the right amount. Music is ok, indipendant movies is ok. Sleeping at the office to complete yoru experiments in sub-atomic quantum physics is not. 2. Confidence Speak confidently about what she wants to hear. You have a nobel prize in quantum chemistry? No one cares, it is just nerd talk anyways. You know the front person of some obscure indipendant music act, talk for hours. 3.Respect Tucker Max, nothing more needs to be said. 4.A Sense of Humor Tell… Read more »
Dr. Anonymous–The answer for the first 3 is to date a woman you mesh with, and someone with at least close to a corresponding level of education and/or intellectual curiosity. If ‘nerd talk’ is important to you, find someone who shares that passion, or at least be open to and patient with being someone who might take a little longer to understand it. And is that stuff you need to talk about *all* of the time? There are things that I’m interested in but I’m not going to talk about 24/7. Say you’re not terribly interested in pastries nor do… Read more »
“Find someone who’s into what you’re into” is not always possible, as many interests are gender imbalanced. Go to any co-ed engineering school, and, chances are, there will be three male students for every one female student. Go to any Magic: the Gathering tournament, and you’ll be lucky if more than one out of 75 participants is female.
I have a PhD in chemistry and my wonderful boyfriend has a PhD in physics. Yeah, physics may be 10:1 male to female, but the (much larger) chem department at our school was probably about 45:55, you don’t have to have exactly the same discipline to find someone who THINKS like you do. There might not be girls at the Magic tourney, but you can find ones that like graphic novels at a comic con. I think a lot of “geeky” men who feel under appreciated really just are being the same amount of picky. They want a hot girl… Read more »
“Dr. Anonymous–The answer for the first 3 is to date a woman you mesh with, and someone with at least close to a corresponding level of education and/or intellectual curiosity. If ‘nerd talk’ is important to you, find someone who shares that passion, or at least be open to and patient with being someone who might take a little longer to understand it. And is that stuff you need to talk about *all* of the time? ” This is not what the question is about. The question is about the fact that the onus is always on the man to… Read more »
The Alyssa Bereznak/Jon Finkel thing has been discussed to death, but I’ll weigh in again. I’ll start off with saying that I’m a very conventionally attractive woman (I’m not being overly confident here, in fact I’m insecure, but but objectively, I’m quite hot by conventional standards) who is surrounded by MTG. Most of of the guys I hang out with have it as their primary hobby (although the guy I’m crazy about is more into D&D). I know everyone from the casual player to guys who make it to pro tours and have traveled to the world to play. I… Read more »
Alyssa said something ignorant. We get that. We all say stupid things. BUT the reaction was still NOT OK. Calling her terrible names, threatening her, calling all women terrible people, the sheer anger over a silly article. It’s the bitter, angry players that make women feel uncomfortable dating players, and who are the reason that one of my favorite mtg experiences was a ladies’ event. I just wanted to chime up on this real quick. I’ll be the first to agree that a lot of the reaction to the stuff she said was uncalled for. But at the same time… Read more »
Actually, most of the paragraphs were about other things, if you actually read through it. There’s just about one that talks about women feeling uncomfortable. I praised mtg players, and talk about relating to their experiences in the other. I’d also like to mention that women are told to deal with it when men say they wouldn’t consider a woman who has had too many sexual partners (according to him) as a dating option (or a number of superficial, silly things). This is basically what Alyssa said. He’s a good guy, but I can’t take him seriously because he plays… Read more »
you got the circle wrong, especially when it comes to low social status men like nerds.
It starts with them being disrespected and (often cruelly) rejected by women/girls, then they disrespect them back.
The fact that it is a circle implies there is no start point. No one started the fight, it’s been going on long, long before you or I were born. The conflict and hatred between the genders has existed forever, though it has changed dramatically over the decades. You could probably name instances where you were totally innocent but the girl said/did something hurtful, but each of those girls might be able to say the same thing. Not to mention infinite array of subtle influences that convinces us to suspect the opposite gender regardless of what we’ve seen for ourselves.
Alberich said: “you got the circle wrong, especially when it comes to low social status men like nerds. It starts with them being disrespected and (often cruelly) rejected by women/girls, then they disrespect them back.” I really need to address this, because it is an inappropriate excuse. First of all, I object to you referring to nerds as “low social status men.” My boyfriend is a nerd. My ex-fiance was a nerd. I’m a nerd. My friends are nerds. Nerds tend to date nerds- and we are just fine from my perspective. I have a great social circle and some… Read more »
Nina, I agree with your stance up until the point where you say that everyone got bullied. I think that point, or at least my reading of it, dismisses the very real pain endured by some people who are chronically bullied. Yes, everyone has a hard way to go at some point in adolescence, but all teenaged angst is not created equal, and the circumstances that contribute to that angst can vary remarkably. To be clear, the load of crap I carried out of those years was relatively light. I do agree that whatever happens to me is my responsibility… Read more »
While the effects do circle in the form of someone being treated bad and then they in turn mistreat others I think calling it a loop might not be the best way to describe it. Thing is different people come into the loop at different points. Some guys start off disrespecting women from the get go regardless of how women have treated them in their own past just as some women start off disrespecting men from the get go regardless of how men have treated them in their own past and so on. From there their disrepect infects other people… Read more »
Actually, most of the paragraphs were about other things, if you actually read through it. Actually I did and if you had actually read my response you would have notice that I wasn’t limiting what I said to a single response this this incident. I’d also like to mention that women are told to deal with it when men say they wouldn’t consider a woman who has had too many sexual partners (according to him) as a dating option (or a number of superficial, silly things). Yes that certainly does happen and it’s not right. This is basically what Alyssa… Read more »
The problem is if I for example were to look at a pic of your tits, drop you in a hot second, AND then start railing on to anyone that would listen about how terrible of a person you are and how digusting and all sorts of other negative insults as if my opinions of you ar straight fact.
And this happens. Men actually do this. And it says something that ex-gf revenge p*rn is so popular. Even if most of it is fake, the fact that that’s what so many people want to see is extremely disturbing.
Oh yeah that does happen. On a regular basis. Men judging women, women judging men, men judging men, women judging women, etc…..
@Danny: While it is true that both sides judge each other, feminism had taught women that it is ok to fight back but they teach men and boys that women are somehow more evolved and are above such human vagaries. Feminism and mainstream interests have also taught society that judgement only moves in one direction, against women.
Aya, I suspect because quite frankly there are a lot of shitty women out there, lots of cheaters so revenge porn is seen as a way to get back at them. The whole she broke my heart, I’ll spread shit about her thing. Seeing as a lot is fake I’d say it’s probably more commonly a fantasy vs actually done.
Archy–Many people get their hearts broken and many people break hearts. It happens all the time. It’s a part of life, it’s a part of growing as a person. I’ve been cheated on and I’ve cheated–it taught me a lot of lessons. No reason to publicly humiliate a person and ruin their relationships with friends, family, and employers.
@Aya, there is no shortage of revenge acts from burning his clothes, painting his car, some may even threaten them with false accusations of rape or abuse, some get stabbed or killed.
A lot of people get cheated on but that also means there are plenty even in the minority of cases who will do something vengeful. I don’t agree with any of it but it happens. The most I’d do to a cheater is to tell em to fuckoff n warn my friends against dating her but I’d want some pretty concrete evidence first.
That’s annoying how they judge models. As a photographer I have met a few models and every one of them so far I’ve met has had a lovely, nice nature to them. One I know is quite intelligent, funny, fun to be around, more people could take a note from her book definitely as her attitude is good. The only harsh words they had were over their own looks, which was sad but I guess it’s to be expected. “There are a lot of nerds who don’t really let women into their ‘spaces,’ demand some crazy amount of nerd cred… Read more »
Dr. Anonymous–The answer for the first 3 is to date a woman you mesh with, and someone with at least close to a corresponding level of education and/or intellectual curiosity
You know, that was exactly the point I took out of Dr. A’s post!
Blanket statements about “passion” like in the article here are totally useless as long as you don’t happen to find someone who shares that passion.
And we all know that there are areas where gender ratios are 5:1 or higher, with associated difficulties…
Case in point regarding the “passion” thing.
I read Aya’s link above http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22786_To_My_Someday_Daughter.html
I found it interesting, in these circumstances, that it included a reference to a guy who was dumped by his wife because he spent too much time and resources on his passion.
Seems to me that if a person has a passion that is not either shared by the partner, or at least to some other tangential benefit to said partner, sooner or later that passion will either face a heavy decline or lead to some kind of ultimatum in the relationship.
I don’t think people need to share each other’s passions to be turned on by them. I do think they have to *appreciate* each other’s passions. One of the most compatible couples I know are both PhD candidates, she in linguistics and he in neuroscience. They don’t want to pursue each other’s fields but they enjoy learning about them. Now, if one of them thought the other’s field was boring or frivolous (there is a LOT of prejudice by technically minded men against the liberal arts – as if the only possible reason someone would choose to study literature or… Read more »
Unless of course the woman finds science hotter than indie hipster crap. They exist. I don’t much like indie hipster crap and am far more prone to social justice and science news. I’m beginning to think though that men don’t find those women attractive…
Plenty of women are shallow. Plenty of men are shallow. Plenty of people are shallow. I don’t know how this is news. The trick is to be deep enough to find the people who are deep enough to find you.
Wow, Julie! (And I mean this in a good way)
You know you just bypassed the whole Nerdlove article in just two short paragraphs…?
I win the internetz!
I’m not a fan of indie hipster ‘crap’ myself, but why put it down? People are allowed to like what they like. We all have different hobbies and passions.
Not my point. I was engaging in snarky tone to match the other comment. I have no issue with indie music, I’m just not a fan. Sigh.
Has it really come to this? I suppose it has. On behalf of all hobbies, I apologize. All are valid. My main point though, seems to have been lost.
It’s a heated topic. Sarcasm already doesn’t translate well over the internet but once a net discussion gets personal and heated the tolerance for sarcasm drops even more.
(I was actually thinking something similar to Aya but I was overjoyed by the paragraph after it I just don’t care if you were being sarcastic or not. And honestly since I know you are not a disciple of the Futrelle School of “Make an Insult and when called on it claim Snark” I’m not inclined to care much.)
I was being snarky and it’s early and I have sick kids at home and no coffee. I have good friends in hipster indie bands. I’m just not like a fan girl who’d clutch my pearls to date a musician. I’d far rather date an activist or someone who could blow my mind about how the universe works. I will say there are a number of cute musicians in the world though and the outfits can be nice. I’ve just found we’ve nothing to talk about.
Ok, sorry. It’s early in the morning. 🙂 It’s just I have issues when people claim that one hobby is superior to another and it seems to come up in a lot of circles.
No problem. I shouldn’t have said “crap” that was rude. Eh. No coffee.
Plenty of women are shallow. Plenty of men are shallow. Plenty of people are shallow. I don’t know how this is news. The trick is to be deep enough to find the people who are deep enough to find you. It seems like news because advice columns have this uncanny ability to only acknowledge shallowness when it suits their own ends. I think part of the reason FlyingKal is so happy with your short comment is because Nerdlove seems to be ignoring the shallowness of women while highlighting the shallowness of men. “It’s not that there are shallow women out… Read more »
And there are also people who are shallow in one respect but not in another. And there are people who are shallow at one point in their lives, but in another. Think of the desiring a ‘nerd girl’ thing that NL went through. That was pretty shallow, but he’s past that now. (It’s shallow not because he wanted someone who shared his tastes, but because he stereotyped a girl who presented herself as a nerd).
And there are also people who are shallow in one respect but not in another. And there are people who are shallow at one point in their lives, but in another.
I’d venture to say that most people are like that.
As a fellow supernerd (science PhD) who was fortunate to nearly literally trip over another supernerd (math guy) to form a superpartnership with lots of nerdy hobbies, tons of uncoolness, basic introversion, and a lack of fashion sense, I second Julie’s short-and-sweet summary! 🙂
@Archy: I get your frustration, I can’t help but think that for you and others focusing that energy towards making change might serve a purpose. I am often frustrated with how little, besides interesting conversation, actually happens to make change on the gender front. FYI.The DV law in America,though longer officially gendered,it includes the LGBT community, straight men still bear the moral burden.The straight feminists did want include the LGBT community in the new act. Partially due to a refusal to admit that women rape and committ DV against other women.
Just to put it out there. The same thing has been said to women for years. In another thread, several posters said that women just need to get over it and not be insecure about their looks. I hear it all the time. A woman who compares herself to other women is not a keeper. Be pretty but not actually *try* to be pretty. Woman up and deal with the media and corporations making you feel like you’re shit and men looking at p*rn of 18 year olds. This kind of advice is given to women every day. It’s given… Read more »
offtopic: Aya, perhaps you might remember some months ago, I posted a reply to you about BodyForm (a UK maxipad company) and their legendary ad campaign of the late 80s in the UK.
Perhaps youve seen their latest hit as its gone viral, I burst out laughing at the farting bit
“And who is that freak with the caption, “ladies” under his name?”
It’s Joseph Gordon-Levitt. I had a poster of him on my wall when I was a teen.
I have a mad crush on him. Mad. Even though he’s very young, he is so smart and clever and picks great scripts (though I hear Looper was a crap pile). And he’s a good singer.
Looper was good. Someone’s been fibbin ya
He is definitely awesome in the latest Batman movie (even with his fake NYC accent)….!
Not trying to start any fires here, but i would really be interested in seeing an honest list about what women are willing to do for men. Meaningful things, not the stereotypical tummy tucks and implants.
Here are a few things on My Man’s List I brag to others about his accomplishments and what he does for me I respect his decisions without a debate I ask for his advice and help and challenge him when he’s not at his best I initiate sex and keep it surprising I thank him for the value he adds to my life and let him know I need him I decline attention from other men, so he never feels jealous He has no man-leash because I know he knows how to find his way home all by himself I… Read more »
I think this question says more about you than any answer a woman gives will say about her.
I would add,
You don’t have to be perfect!
If you are 20% of the guy described here, then a lot of women will find you attractive!
@Julie: Even in a liberated world, expectations by women that men must still be burdened with the antiquated rules of dating is the norm. The problem is that this issue should have been discussed and moved forward simultaneously with other aspects of women’s independence. This issue that men have for years complained about as one of the many hypocritical aspects of feminism, is well known. I do believe you when you say that for you and your friends this kind of regressive, confusing, dating behavior discussed is unknown, but I can’t fathom why. It is not hard to find evidence… Read more »
I’m quite sure traditional norms exist they just aren’t in my subset. I absolutely believe the people posting that women don’t ask them out. I’m sure I’m an outlier. I’m tremendously sympathetic to the comments I hear and I believe there is a great deal of frustration and pain out there. By new culture I didn’t mean necessarily looking at foreign women, I meant if you are trying to date corporate women and that’s not working, go arty or punk or nerdy or something else. Change the variables. I suppose if you want to date women from a different country… Read more »
Open question. Why is it when issues of body image and of attractiveness are discussed it is always from an Anglo school of thought? The last time I engaged in a discussion on body image it was clear that the standard being used for purposes of discussion was white and European. I’m not saying that anyone is anything but the idea that the prevailing standard can and should only be challenged by someone of color doesn’t wash. I don’t understand why white women who don’t like the current standard don’t simply associate themselves with a standard ( that of some… Read more »
@Aya: Hello Aya, I though I might challenge something you wrote about your feminist values and I’m paraphrasing for brevity’s sake.( I can be long-winded ) You said that you and other feminists have an understanding of MRA. You gave, I think, a thumbnail description of what you thought those issues are. It seems more likely, to me, that your understanding of MRA is limited by the same biases that have always plagued feminist theories and theorists. For example, how much of your understanding of MRA is inclusive of the struggles and opinions of men color? Is what you know… Read more »
@Julie: I’m not Marcus but if you don’t mind I’d like to take a shot at your queries here. I’m trying to understand what I’m reading and what you are reading as different. And I appreciate the effort. What you see as condescending that I don’t, vs what I see as misogynistic in regular PUA that others apparently don’t and so forth. I could care less about NL at this point. We’ve got a small exchange on what we think about PUA so I’ll leave it at that. This isn’t really about NL himself but what he is saying (or… Read more »
Thank you Danny. That was the clearest explanation of this yet. I understand what you are saying and I can see why I may have missed that as what I wound up reading was framed (for me) differently. There are shallow people in the world and they’ve hurt other people. I have no doubt about that. I have no disbelief that there are men (and women) who have been shut down for pretty superficial reasons and that’s caused great pain and bitterness. I think dating advice columns are probably the wrong place to look for support and agree there is… Read more »
I think I can say it in fewer words: For some of us guys, we have had dismal experiences in the dating realm due to factors that we feel are totally outside of our control, and it’s deeply painful because of the innate need in every person to feel accepted, desired and loved. All we want is some understanding and sympathy. And we’re met with a response along the lines of: Looking for understanding and sympathy, betraying a lack of total self-confidence that you can woo any woman, and — for that matter — not having the ability to woo… Read more »
Yes. It makes total sense. You said it very well, very clearly, and very succinctly. The rest of this comment is not in response to you in particular. What is happening for me in these threads is that what you say (you or others) is not something that I recognize in my social groups (for whatever reason). Or, perhaps I’m not being told about it, but it isn’t something I see, currently or for the past 15 years or so. I see women asking men out. I see men asking women out. I see couples of all kinds of look/money… Read more »
I’m not exactly in a suburban area either, but I have a completely different experience and that of my multiple social groups is completely different. I don’t have a single female friend who has asked out a man, and I know zero men who have been asked out by a woman. While it is true that I haven’t spoken about this topic with everyone I know, every person I have spoken with has told me as much. I have even had numerous women tell me that they would never under any circumstances ask a man out because “the man is… Read more »