“When I check out women, what is really going on with me? Is it just normal because I’m a heterosexual guy that likes women?” Jayson Gaddis explores objectification.
I get this question a lot and it’s one I’ve explored for years. “Why do we (men) objectify women so much?” Sometimes men will follow that question up with “And, what can I do about it?” (sure, women objectify men too, but that’s not what this post is about).
I posted this question on my facebook wall and got quite the range of responses. I included a few short responses below and the longer, stand-out responses I have included at the bottom of this post if you are interested.
A few men also asked me to define objectification, which to me seems prudent. So, we’ll start there.
Defining Objectification in the context of this blog post:
Objectify: To stare, gawk, or check out women and their bodies and body parts. To see them as objects (instead of real people) and to think of them in a sexual way.
A guy named Alex added,
“I think what we are calling “objectification” is its own line of development and that “picturing myself fucking her,” is a limited sliver of what the interpenetrating faculties which cause a man’s bodymind to go there can actually unfold into.”
In other words, Alex is pointing out that how we define objectification will depend on where we are psychologically/spiritually/developmentally in life.
Here are some classic male responses to the question that I have received from the boys and men I’ve worked with for over twenty years:
- It’s biology
- Because we just want to have sex
- Because I’m a guy
- I’m an animal, I’m supposed to want to have sex with every woman I see.
- I’m just horny
- It’s normal male behavior
- I don’t objectify women…
Then, here are some more sophisticated responses I got on facebook:
- “To avoid the terror of annihilation — being reabsorbed back into the feminine. To avoid kicking up unhealed dependencies on mother.” –RF
- “I objectify women cause it’s “safer”. I receive an immediate gratification, a thrill if you will, albeit superficial, it does keep me safe at least for a time, (and I will jump in with Richard here) from annihilation — from a treacherous road of intimacy and vulnerability — the risk of being really seen and connected with– or actually rejected!! Yes, that’s it — it’s an avoidance of rejection… Intimacy takes a lot of work, courage and commitment. Objectifying is an “easy” road out of the potential of rejections — at least for the moment. A slice of breathing room if you will, though illusory and ultimately unfulfilling and painful — it’s still or at least has been a strange sort of unconscious haven for me…” –R.
- “I’m stuck in the belief that that feminine essence is outside of myself. I’m alienated from the larger truth of my Completeness as a human being. That sexy, juicy, radiant paradise is not inside myself, therefore it’s an object I obsess about outside myself and I treat it like entertainment. This insight leads me to believe I haven’t spent enough time balancing the relationship with My (whole) Self.”
- “First of all, I love this thread. I feel no shame in my feelings of lust for women. I suppose that if I thought they were ONLY good for sex, that would be an issue. I have an beautiful wife, and I have two daughters. I love women. they are an inextricable part of my life. I love what these women bring to my world. but god, I love looking at women. they’re just amazing. It’s part of my biological make up to think that they’re beautiful. Is that objectifying them? Maybe, maybe not. I just love them. and at some point men will have the same feelings for my daughters. If that comes with a respect for the beautiful people that they are, then I think that lust is part of a beautiful package.” –KB
- My personal response? “Because I’m avoiding something.” I unpack this down below…
Is there any truth to the first lists above? Sure, and in my experience men who have done personal work on themselves and have the ability to self-reflect and take ownership have more insightful responses. They know there’s more going on in the picture.
So when I check out women, what is really going on with me? Is it just normal because I’m a heterosexual guy that likes women?
I took this question to my personal therapy many times. I was never satisfied with my therapist’s response, so then I took it to the meditation cushion and my male friends. I contemplated it for many months and had many, many discussions with my male friends and mentors. Our aim was to get underneath to the deeper truth going on.
Here’s what I/we came up with:
1. Nature
Yes indeed men want to procreate and plant our seed, so naturally we look for mates constantly. True. Biology is indeed a factor. We are indeed animals. It’s in our DNA to want to have sex and be sexual with other human beings. We will objectify the sex we are attracted to and it’s perfectly normal and okay. In fact, it can even be glorious, alive, fun, and enjoyable.
2. Nurture
The next thing to note is that men are conditioned to objectify women. It’s ain’t just nature working here. In men’s culture, it’s acceptable to objectify women. Men bond around it.
And, the less developed a man is, the more animal-like and unconscious his behavior will be toward women. In other words, for guys who have very little ability to self reflect or a limited self-awareness, they live seeing the entire world as object where they can get something, rather than seeing object as a relational interplay.
For example, marketing companies prey on men who are stuck in their animal brain. We are taught over and over to see women as objects. I can barely go on any male-focused website now without being hit at some point by a tiny, physically attractive, disproportioned airbrushed woman looking at me. Someone took the Hooters business model and applied it everywhere to everything. Seriously.
And, it’s pervasive and all around us. Notice where men buy stuff, there are often photos of women present.
3. Pain Avoidance
Here comes the deeper cut. I objectify women because I feel a hole in me and I want to fill that hole. For example, I notice that I find myself checking out women when I feel like shit. I’m in a funk, bad mood, triggered, and most importantly, disconnected. It happens almost always when I had stuff to feel deep down that I simply didn’t want to feel.
Take R.F.’s comment,
“As I have sat with it a little longer, the simple answer is that I feel it will make me feel better. If i am feeling some sort of unrest within myself, I will seek to get something from “her”, to “suck her beauty” in some way; And that will somehow feed me / nourish me, and help me get me by for a time…”
My own experience?
Yes, I love beautiful women and I appreciate them in an ongoing way. This experience feels good in me and I feel alive. I do this with anyone I find beautiful, from a small child, to men and women, to folks that are eighty years old. I appreciate their human beauty and specific characteristics. And, when it doesn’t feel good or it feels off, that’s my cue that something else is going on.
When I used porn semi-frequently, I was doing so whenever I was disconnected from myself. When I’ve had lovers in the past, I would be most interested in sex with them when I was feeling flat and in a funk. I had no tools back then to feel my pain, so sex most often helped take the edge off a little bit and it helped me connect to myself again and even connect to my partner again. Similarly, one of the main reasons why so many men surf porn is because it’s a temporary stress reliever. It’s medication.
Since I used to suck at feeling my feelings and I was emotionally constipated (due to my conditioning), I resorted to the limited tool belt I had; stuffing, distracting, avoiding, masking, hiding, masturbation, fucking, or projecting it outward through blame.
So objectifying women is temporarily helpful for me when I want relief, even though it’s comes at a cost and it ultimately doesn’t help me in the long term.
I also noticed that it ultimately doesn’t feel good. It certainly doesn’t feel good for women (I’ve asked many times). In relationship workshops I lead, women often give the men feedback about how painful it is to be on the receiving end of their stares, looks, peeks, and glances. Women know when a man is checking them out. While some women report they are okay with it and even like it, the majority of the women I interface with are not cool with dudes staring at their body alone. They also want to be seen for who they really are.
How to do this differently
Explore the cost. Remember that objectifying women isn’t bad or wrong. It just comes at a cost. It’s up to each of us to figure out what that cost is. Get honest about the cost. For me it is just medication and food for my ego.
When I’m in pain or avoiding feeling something, I default to habits such as objectifying women. That doesn’t mean it’s okay or not okay. You be the judge of whether it works for you and your relationships to women. Ask the women in your life and get a range. Ask mature women, older women, younger women, and ask your partner. Ask them what the impact of what your behavior is like for them.
Get connected. When I objectify women, it’s because I feel disconnected, less present, less in my heart, and less in my body. The remedy is simple now. Get back in my body and heart. Connect to me, all of me. This requires I meditate, connect to someone I love and slow down. It requires I feel what is going on deep down inside of me.
Appreciation. Once I get connected to me again, I notice how I can appreciate a beautiful woman and I’m in my body, connected to my heart. It has a totally different quality. She feels it and I feel it.
What about you? What is your relationship to objectification?
♦◊♦
Here are a few other unedited shares from the awesome facebook thread:
D. said…
“Why do I “objectify”? It’s a loaded term for me as well and I’ve felt a good deal of shame about it for a while. Still do to an extent. I like to think of it as a form of appreciation. Appreciation for a woman’s physical traits that for whatever reason I’m energetically drawn to. Yes, I can “lose myself” in it for a while, and I’m noticing a little charge for me there as I say that. Like its easier for me to shame myself there before anyone else can (not saying they will… just my projection). And yeah, what I’ve found works best for me so far is being a yes to everything in my own experience and in what’s happening AND at some point in my development simply realizing that objectification is not enough for me. I love appreciating and experiencing another human being for more than just her physical traits. What I prefer physically doesn’t in itself inspire me to want to connect with a woman, and doesn’t in itself have me feel attracted. The attraction and inspiration simply are there or not independent of how she looks.”
J said…
“If I may add… we objectify women for the same reason women objectify men: to be able to see our personal fantasies in them.”
G.C. said…
“it happens in the hungry ghost realm I live in most of the time…..for me its about seeking approval, biological instincts, unmet needs, and grasping for wholeness outside myself…….the most fun and exciting and ego gratifying times in my life have been when i have embraced it and danced with it and gave myself permission to play with the illusions, projections, feelings, etc……..”
M. said…
“When I objectify a woman, I am not ignoring that there is more than her body, I am just filling up the rest of my perception of her with my fantasy of her.”
S.P (a woman) said…
“I don’t know any women who don’t like being appreciated! (I consider “admired and desired” as part of appreciation) as long as it is grounded in reality, not based purely on projection, and from a place of wholistic seeing. Some women feel scared of it, or long for it but don’t know how to take it in, or push it away because it has come with strings in the past, or push it away because it comes with strings in the present (the other person’s need for approval, the other person’s need for something to be fulfilled in them etc.). But underneath all this, I believe it is safe to say that all women (and in fact all people!) have a basic human desire and need to be wanted, appreciated, and loved! Some generalizations are just true! 
”
JB said…
“The thing I just discovered was that the women I would typically objectify were the hardest ones for me to understand completely. They seem to have the thickest mask which triggered my desire penetrate that mask.
The next thing I noticed was how easily such a mysterious woman could fit into my ideal partner that I subconsciously created as a child. This was my “Fairy Tale Fantasy” about how such an ideal women would behave and believe about herself. Typically, the “exterior beautiful” women would trigger this belief because I had assumed they must be special and I wouldn’t have to completely let go of my fantasy.
My fantasy would then project this image onto her and I would react to that image. The image had a belief that these women would always be honest and had a much higher level of personal integrity than me. That would keep me in a cycle of self judgment in comparison to this belief which triggered me to hide behind my mask even stronger.
The other part was my unwillingness to believe that someone would have good intentions toward me if I had good intentions toward them. That made it easier for me to dismiss their “bad” behavior as being an unintentional mistake. In turn, I could continue to have this running story going on about them that had no foundation in truth simply because of my unwillingness to see past their mask and see them as a real person.
The answer for me was to stop trying to get this woman but use that energy to make myself the best possible me I could become. A me that now has confidence because I am self assured, self respecting, and full of self accepting unconditional love. Part of becoming that man means that I must accept and own the truth of my motives and be willing to see the motives of others. That is when I was finally able to let go of the fantasy and see this woman for who she really is inside.
My biggest life breakthrough and victory came as a result of that growth. Once I saw this woman for her true self and fully let go of my fantasy about her, I no longer felt any desire for her.
As a result, something incredible is happening to me now. Something wonderful has started growing in the void where my fantasy use to live. It’s a genuine curiosity and appreciation for all woman. Especially for all the women who actually live and display their authentic self and freely give their love to all as an expression of their femininity.
I no longer see women as a simple desired object constructed in my fantasy that I need to get, I have only appreciation of all of her (both good and bad). I now know that if I trust myself to drop my mask and reveal all of myself, most women will follow my lead and appreciate me for having the courage to create a safe place for her to let herself go.
I now see these amazing women everywhere in my life where I could not before. The fact is that they have been there all along, providing me their example as living models of what I have been seeking in my life. Until that time, I had never really appreciated them for that love and the joy they bring to my world.
To all of you who have watched me struggle with this, Here is a heart felt thank you for your patients, encouragement, and support for me to let go and wake up.”
V. (a woman) said…
“Love the discussion here. Thanks Jayson. I have a passion for this subject. I believe that society offers to us the message that if there is deep connection or even attraction, then its MUST BE expressed in a romantic manner. Thus “the Romantic Myth”. What this robs us of is experiencing each other deeply, honoring each other as sexual beings, but not having to act on that or “objectify” each other. It is sad when the expression “Just friends” is used. We are robbing each other of the depth of connection that can be experienced in the most honoring way. I especially experience this as a married woman who is open hearted, committed to honoring my husband, and yet have experienced deep, meaningful connection with male friends. I stand strong when romantic feelings are expressed and am not surprised the way our culture programs us. I’ve said, “I do not feel the same way. But I am not running away. I honor your processing of it.” Some have run feeling like there is no room… thus if it can’t be romantic then there is no other option. But the closest friends have processed through what it means to respect, honor and not “objectify” and have a safe place to be. Many of the men I work with love that I can express appreciation and yet never desire… they show up more powerfully in the world walking in a new level of honor for themselves. Also, importantly these relationships are an expansion of the marriage rather than outside of the marriage. This has been a big journey for my husband and I. But as we’ve grown we have learned what loving others can really look like regardless of gender. So the answer to When Harry Met Sally, can men and women be friends without ending up in bed (if there is attraction), the answer is yes. Wisdom, emotional and spiritual maturity, and transparency, all must exist, no doubt. But the safety of rich friendship, without objectification, is such a gift.”
photo of surprised man looking through binoculars: Shutterstock.com.
About Jayson Gaddis
A lot of the information discussed in this post is scientifically incorrect. There is no biological tendency for males to objectify women and the male brain is not biologically different to the female brain. There is no biological basis for the sexual objectification of women. Consider Indigenous people who lived their lives naked – women with breats revealed. Neither Men or Women sexually objectified one another – the community did not starve because the men spent their days staring at the naked bodies of womenfolk. The widespread dissemintaion of pornography and sexualisation of women in western media has contributed to the increased sexual objectification of women we are currently witnessing in the western world. People are mistaken if they think this has always been the case. For those interested, I reccommend the reading: The Brain that Changes itself by Dr. Normal Doidge. Dr. Norman Doidge explains the influence of pornography and other forms of sexualising media that lead to changes in the brain and subsequent changes in the way men view women. Those who describe a biological basis for sexual objectification are ignorant and should spend some time reading the scientific literature on this issue. Men are socialised to view women as objects and reinforce this process by masturbating while looking at images of women’s bodies. Sexual objectification is positively correlated with domestic violence, sexual violence, and mental health issues among females. Sexual objectification is a method men use to gain dominance over women “I am the one who can evaluate your worth”. It is interesting that the sexual objectification of women has increased safter women’s increased participation in the workforce. While men once defines their masculinity in terms of being the provider, the bread-winner, the head of the household and gained dominance over women through his financial power, men in the western world are now struggling to redefine their masculinity. Reducing women to an object to be evaluated by men is just one example of this struggle.
As a woman, your opinion about what sexual “objectification” of women is is just that — an opinion. “Sexual objectification is a method men use to gain dominance over women ‘I am the one who can evaluate your worth’.” Nuh-uh. Only a man can know what he is thinking, and it could have nothing to do with dominance or power. You can’t speak for men, and you certainly don’t know what a man is thinking, because you’re not one.
Just like men can’t know what everything is like from a woman’s perspective, you can’t know what something is like from a man’s perspective. Feminist literature might have taught you to think a certain way, but it’s written by women, so it’s coming from a woman’s perspective about how men behave.
Okay, no. Sarah Brown, as far as I can tell, is not saying men actually literally think these things as they go about their daily life. What she’s getting at is the wider implications of a culture – perpetuated by both men AND women – that tells women that their main source of worth is their sexual appeal and that the main source of validation of this worth is approval from men. In this sense, women often feel that their worth is determined by men, and men often inadvertently feed into this cycle when they use objectifying language to discuss or address women. Obviously, no one thinks that men have internal monologues along the lines of “I’m going to put her in her place using sexual objectification and assert my masculine power!” before he makes a joke about about boobs in the workplace or something. The issue comes from dominant societal narratives which we are all implicated in, whether we like or not, not from individual men or women. The key is identifying these narratives so we can take active steps to work against the.
Great comment, Marianne. I was trying to say something very similar in my comment that used internet culture and bullying below.
the biological reaction happens. When you get to th age of sexual maturity, you are attracted to the female body, naked or not. This is nature not social conditioning.
The attraction is natural, the response to it, may be influenced by the culture, but otherwise if you are male and het, you end to look at butts and boobs.
If objectification depends on a male brain how do you explain the phenomenon within lesbian communities? Are they playing copy-cat to men — and if they are doing so so thoroughly that it is indistinguishable, isn’t it a mark against the significance of biology at all?
Male and female brains are distinctly different. See, for example, Brinzendine (a woman.) In New Guinea, tribes in only recently opened up have recent histories of fighting over, and kidnapping, women. Articles from clinicians have little value when compared to research.
Brizendine’s work on the ‘female brain’ is hardly uncontested, see, for example, Cordelia Fine’s Delusions of Gender or a critical article in Nature:
‘The Female brain disappointingly fails to meet even the most basic standards of accuracy and balance.’ (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v443/n7112/full/443634a.html)
You can’t just pick the work of one researcher on one tribe and claim that something has been scientifically proven. That’s not how science works.
I’ve actually read the Fine book too. It’s nothing but disappointing polemics. Extremely weak.
The book is polemical in tone, however it raises a number of important points which are too often ignored in discussions about whether or not there is a scientific basis for distinct ‘male’ and ‘female’ brains.
The most important of which is that we simply don’t know, and cannot know, to what extent differences in the behaviours, capacities and skills which are considered ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ are innate or learned. Both observed differences in behaviours between men and women, and observed differences in brain structure and function, could be the result of cultural differences in how males and females tend to experince the world from an early age, or they could be a result of innate biological difference. There’s no way of knowing, it’s impossible to study a control which hasn’t been exposed to any kind of genered culture.
Therefore, the most ethical approach to this issue is to assume that no particular gendered behaviour is innate and to examine the possible social causes of any harmful gendered behaviour in detail. This way we don’t risk writing off harmful socially learned gendered behaviour as impossible to change.
Rerurning to the point at hand, I’m not sure that ‘objectification’ is a harmful behaviour in every circumstance. I certainly objectify men who I don’t know well (if objectification is considered to be evaluating someone entirely on their physical appearance and how they might be able to get me off) on a day to day basis. I don’t think that this effects how I treat men I do know, however.
I can see how it could become a problem if this was how I viewed men in general, even when I had an actual relationship of some kind with them.
I’m being mischievous, but if I recall my Hegel, the first step in perceiving someone else is to see them as alien. (Entfremung)
I actually think the most ethical approach (or mentally healthy approach, anyway) is to assume that whatever were currently doing is okay (and, I’d argue probably sitting on a biological substrate,) and relax about it. Many themes here have a kind of “have you stopped beating your wife” approach. I don’t think most people are as het up about them as we might think form reading these threads. Culture matters, though. In an Islamic country, I probably wouldn;t let a women see that I was checking her out. Here I might, even though I’m married. Flirting is the spice of life after all.
You may be true about the vast similarities between male and female brains, but in terms of the socialization of sexuality, there’s really been a lot of it. The difference between nude societies and modern societies is simply how used to nudity people are.Japanese women used to take advantage of this, by covering up most of their bodies, then showing only hints of skin.
And, as I recall, a significant amount of attraction between sexes was purely sexual in nature as well. Perhaps not as children, but later as adults. For most mammals, sexual urges spring up during certain times of year, drawing the genders to each other sexually in a really powerful way. For humans, this is a fundamental difference. Our sex drives are active year-around.
Also, masturbation has existed for an incredibly long time. Basically, it exists for almost any creature that has access to it.
If you want to talk about objectification, saying men are too sexually attracted to women is inaccurate, because that really hasn’t changed. The problem, I think, would be more in an increasing number of men who aren’t interested in women’s person. Perhaps because we’re considering each other more of competitors than mates. Perhaps because pop-culture is creating a bit of a conformist society where people try to look and act the same in public, meaning looks are the only thing that really stand out.
Furthermore, there still often a connect between status and beauty with women. You look at magazines in the grocery store, and it’s difficult NOT to find one with a woman on the cover, with something like “Michelle Obama’s beauty secrets” or “how such and such celebrity stays thin” or “uh oh, looks like Mrs. Clinton is packing on a few pounds.” It’s retarded and nonsensical. The only place for those judgements is in fashion and dating.
But I feel like people (girls AT LEAST as much as guys) tie so much every-day type respect to the appearance of women. Are you wanting to date them? Are you wanting to have them in bed? Then why the heck does it matter? I feel my dating standards for women are really fairly high. (Normal in Europe, but preposterous in the US, From what I hear.) But they are just that: DATING standards. I have overweight female friends who rather repulse me physically, but that really doesn’t matter to me because I’m not dating them. My respect for them remains fairly same.
As long as we aren’t doing anything physical, of course.
There’s also this whole bit about, like I mention a lot, the traditional dating scene. When guys are expected to make a move, (whether or not the girl does in the long run.), a guy is supposed to try to get whatever girl he can. Because if he doesn’t make a move, girls aren’t going to give him much attention. So when we see a girl, we have to be sufficiently motivated to feel and show interest, because if not, well, we aren’t fending off unwanted attention. Guys get such little attention in that area, most have little clue what “unwanted attention” could possibly mean.
At tunes we’re desperate for sex wheneverit’s potentially available, because if we don’t take what we can get, it could be a while before another potential shows up.
A guy walks into a group of girls, the girls probably get hit on all the time, so an extra guy is uninteresting.
A girl walks into a group of guys, and they’re going to all basically step all over each other to get to her, because that’s what we have to do in this dating game. We don’t have our “options” to choose from.
If straight men want to know what it feels like to be objectified, go to a gay bar. THEN let’s talk.
Worst comparison ever.
I’ve been to gay bars on a number of occasions. I have had people grab my crotch and frisk me. I’ve experienced it all but I did not mind because I knew what was coming. That how gay bars are. Physically touching random people is part of the code – (but it probably depends on the gay bar though.)
I guess I don’t mind being “objectified”
That would be because you went into a situation expecting it. If it happened at work when you’d just had a horrific day and you were tired and angry, it’d change how it “felt” a lot and I bet you’d “mind” it a lot more. It would communicate a lot about how little anyone cared about you as a person. Women don’t go into bars and get objectified. It happens everywhere, constantly. No matter if you’re angry, sad, into it, even encouraging, or discouraging it, frightened, ill, worried, or anything else.
Oh yeah because, you know, only men are capable of objectifying anybody.
I’ve been to gay bars, my experience is that they tend to have a significant patronage from straight women anyway. Some of the grabbiest, loudest, and most “objectifying” people I’ve ever seen have been drunk straight women in gay bars.
Wonder why that is? maybe because these women, (unlike most men who have been taught otherwise) believe that female attention is always wanted, female touch can never be harmful, even to gay men? Maybe they figure that since these men aren’t interested in them anyway (as far as they know) they’re free to be as “forward” as they like because they’ll never have to, if you’ll excuse the expression, put their money where their mouth is?
casey:
I don’t know many men who would object to being groped, stared at etc especially coming from someone who is attractive.
I don’t know about staring, but I’m pretty sure most of my guy friends would be pretty put off by uninvited groping, even if the groper was highly attractive to them.
@ Alice
Most guys don’t appreciate being sexually assaulted. That doesn’t quite register the disgust I feel with your comment, but the mods would probable censor that. Didn’t it even occur to you that some men may have been sexually assaulted by women? Do you think they’d enjoy being raped by an attractive woman?
Cuz men are always up for sex right?
I don’t know many women that wouldn’t love a man to be the dominant one in their relationship cuz women are always submissive right? (yes this is sarcasm)
Alice, I have a penis, and I don’t like it when random strangers at a bar grope it. It’s a direct parallel to a random stranger copping a feel of your breasts in a bar. Just because I’m male doesn’t mean I want constant sexual attention to the point of desperation and impropriety.
Okay, maybe the groping part is a little too much, but generally you are going to have more leeway with men than with women when it comes to objectification.
After visiting the gay bar, men still won’t get the full effects of what women have been going through with the many years of objectification.
Thanks Sarah for your comments. You did an excellent job.
Yeah, I agree that the “biological drive to reproduce your DNA” is overstated. Consider the fact that so many sexual fantasies involve activities that simply CANNOT result in pregnancy, and others that carry an extremely low risk of pregnancy. (Does the “selfish gene” really want ejaculation to happen in all those unproductive places?) It would be a much better explanation if our sexual fantasies involved a lot more missionary position and a lot more antasies about getting someone pregnant or getting pregnant. It would be a better explanation if there weren’t so much attention to oral sex and to the female orgasm, which are just so “bilogically unnecessary.”
I totally agree. I also wanted to add I think some of the people that are the most defensive of objectification are failing to make the distinction between just finding someone attractive and creating a fantasy around someone’s body parts. It’s natural to find someone physically attractive. That can be biologically explained. I don’t think it’s natural to form a fantasy around someone’s body parts that completely excludes their human experience because you find them attractive – I think that’s a problem that if someone is doing they should probably address.
If I find her physically attractive then I am going to look.
And more than likely try to ask her out.
It is as simple as that.
You say objectify I say get your head out of your arse.
Your emotions are too strong and your brains are too tight.
@Mack, what ugly language you used to get your point across. Are you angry at someone?
It’s called plain speaking, it has nothing to do with him being angry at anyone. What’s so ugly about down to earth honesty? This is the first comment so far that I have noticed here that gets the point across in simple, direct plain english.
@Mack.. Finding someone attractive is not a problem and is not objectification. I don’t think looking at someone you find attractive is a problem either (and I don’t mean gawk or something that would make the person being admired, male or female, uncomfortable). And it’s not a problem to ask someone out you find attractive either! The distinction is whether or not you only ask out that person because they are attractive and you’ve created some kind of fantasy around them or if you find them attractive and have spoken to them and also enjoy them on a personal level. Being in a relationship where you are getting objectified is extremely psychologically damaging – trust me, I’ve been there. If you’re not doing that, you’re totally ok! Feel free to think women are beautiful.. that’s fine.. just remember they have their own unique human experience and that no one (male or female) should be expected to fit anyone’s fantasy. That is all..
If objectification is reducing a person to their body parts and I saw someone grossly unattractive and deliberately avoided looking at them, would that be objectification? Do we have to be sexually attracted to the body parts to make it objectification? Can’t heterosexual men objectify men and heterosexual women objectify women? What about beauty pageants or Mr. Universe? Miss America has or had (I haven’t watched in years) talent and question segment, but I don’t remember Mr. Universe ever having one. I’m not sure Miss America always had a talent or question segment.
When we watch sports, especially football or combat sports like kick boxing, we actually cheer when a person gets hit. Does anybody really pause and consider that a person was actually hurt? We don’t see them as people until their carried off the field on a stretcher. I think there should be a distinction between objectification and sexual objectification.
@John, do you ever see women watching men parade around on stage strutting their bodies in front of an audience on a Mr. America Beauty Pageant? Do you ever see a group of males showing the print of their penises and testicles and beautiful hair and tans, in swim suits in front of female judges and a female mistress of ceremony. Do you ever?
Do you ever see women staring at men’s crotches wondering about their testicles instead of looking in their eyes when the two are talking to one another. Do you ever hear of women trying to push for men to expose their testicles the way men push for the exposure of breasts and justify the nudity by saying that they are natural and not sexual organs?
These are just a few examples that I am sharing to remind you or inform you in case you did not know that it is true that men objectify women daily and women don’t conform to that unfair practice.
And men have the nerve to get angry when someone calls them out on their objectification of women. The nerve.
I don’t know if it’s still practiced, but back in the 90s at some of the clubs/bars in my area, there were hot legs contests for the ladies and hot buns contests for the men. The Chippendale dancers are still around. I’m pretty sure women don’t watch them for the dance moves. There also was a strip club for women to ogle male bodies in my city. There was also Playgirl and before you say that it closed, Flament Magazine, was founded by women for women.
It’s not a question of whether women objectify men. They do. I’m not even sure if it’s the intensity of the objectification. I’ve heard bachelorette stories from women ranging from extremely tame to debaucheries as compared with the average bachelor party. For example, women have grabbed the stripper’s penis. Touching a stripper’s vagina usually ends the show. Women get away with more when it comes to adult entertainment.
I’ve never seen women staring at a man’s crotch, but I’ve had mine grabbed and I’ve heard women talking about staring at men’s crotches and if you visit a certain sports site run by women (I won’t mention it because I don’t want to give them clicks) they discuss the bodies of the male athletes in an admiring way and this from women who are supposedly only in the locker room to get an interview. Would a male reporter even still have a job if they did that?
You may have an argument as far as prevalence (the proportion of women as opposed to men who regularly objectify) and frequency (men may objectify more frequently than women), but it might have less to do with women nit wanting to and more to do with women not wanting to be caught doing it.
Since when does objectification have to be bad? Assuming that any sexual attraction based on a simple glance counts as objectification.
I can’t look at a woman and instantly know her personality and life story. All I have is what she looks like. Unless you expect me to go up and get the scoop on every woman I find attractive, in which case I can tell you flat out; I just can’t be bothered.
Besides, its not like I don’t understand how it is. I’m 6’2, slim with broad shoulders, deep blue eyes and shaggy, shiny brown hair. I mean this with all modesty, but I catch looks and and comments pretty regularly, from both women and sometimes men. Looking at someone, no matter what you might be thinking when you do, doesn’t hurt anyone. Its what people with a functioning sex drive do. Men do it, and I wouldn’t be surprised if women did it even more.
Xero,
How would you like it if women took that same attitude that you have?
How would you like it if all we, (women) had to go on with a guy was to look at his crotch and wonder how big his penis was?
Are you saying that women judge men by their personality before they even speak to them?
@Peter, yes, we pretty much value the personality over the physical traits. Women really don’t give sex and what’s under a man’s clothing, that much thought. Eventually we look at his physique, but we still care so much about our man’s mind that we don’t think of the physical part, unlike men. We don’t fantasize about other men if we think our man adores us. Our eyes on totally on our man .We are so in love with our man. But as soon as we start realizing that our dream man is not being true, or kind, or romantic, or loyal, or not into us anymore, or is fantasizing about other females, some of us start playing the game too. But, we do not objectify you all.
You realize that men don’t look at women’s crotches to determine how large her labia are, but I have heard women speculate about certain men’s penises before. From a former weight lifter / kick boxer who has been street harassed by women in the past, women look at other things where the size is more easily discernable. Just a couple years ago a woman asked me if I was weight lifting again because my chest looked bigger. Why would she ask if she hadn’t been looking? You probably don’t see a problem with this because women are doing the objectifying.
I think the reason that women are very sensitive about this subject is that there are daily reminders that our looks are the most important things about us and often times, it results in feeling threatened or scared. Look just at internet culture and even internet bullying. Whenever someone wants to hit a woman where it hurts, it’s usually about something to do with her body/looks or something sexual or predatory. It’s one of the first things that comes up when you want to insult or even clumsily compliment a woman. About how they would or wouldn’t fap to the woman. Even if they’re commenting on a woman with a puppy, a book, or a plate of food…nothing remotely related to the body or sex, there are often comments reducing her worth and humanity to looks, supposed sluttiness, and weight. If you’re playing a video game and they can’t even see your face, there are comments about your supposed attractiveness or lack thereof. It’s “you’re too fat” or “you need to eat a sandwich.” It’s threats of rape or “you’re so ugly I wouldn’t even rape you.” It’s “she has a nice ass but her ankles are too thick.” Or what graphic thing they want to do to a specific body part. It reduces our value to the sexual appeal of our body parts and whatever end of the spectrum you fall on for any particular person, you’re fucked. This type of thing also happens in real life to a lot of us.
The other big one is that she’s a bad mother or insults towards her children.
Note: I’m not trying to say that men don’t have their own problems or their own issues to deal with, just laying out a woman’s perspective about this kind of thing. I completely understand that men have to deal with being judged as predators or creeps.
Personally I don’t classify men looking at women as objectifying. I don’t mind being discreetly looked at, and I myself look at attractive men in public. When I think about women being objectified, what comes to mind is magazines with headlines like “Best and Worst Beach Bodies” followed a month later by headlines like “X is Scary Skinny!” , or signs and ads that have a picture of a woman in a provocative pose (bonus points if it looks really uncomfortable!), or movies and video games where the men are wearing ordinary clothes and the women are wearing skimpy clothes, or those stickers that I have seen on cars showing the silhouette of a provocatively posed, large breasted woman.
I don’t think of my male gaze as objectifying unless I utilize it towards that end. Am I asking women to smile? Am I cat-calling? Am I stalking? Am I taking unwarranted pictures? Am I acting in any way inappropriately? Or am I just looking?
I think the problem is that sometimes the label objectification is projected onto what men think when they look at women, as if even our innermost thoughts must be shamed into a gender-binary Oppression Olympics where ANY male fantasy is suspect because it exists within the Patriarchy. I call BS on this tendency. My fantasies are purely my own. My male gaze is private and not for judgement by outside parties interested solely in political points or a gendered agenda.
I APPRECIATE female beauty because as a hetero man women are beautiful to me. They are physically, sexually attractive to me. And I’ll be damned if I apologize for that sentiment or the chances I take to look at women who exhibit it.
But that isn’t to say most women would disagree with what I’ve just said. I think most women don’t care if I’m looking or what I’m thinking so long as I keep my thoughts to myself and leave them alone in mutual respect (insofar as strangers can have). It’s just unfortunate that vocal minorities who seemingly punish male fantasies dominate the conversation.
Regardless, there is a difference between objectification and appreciation. It is vast and dances upon the head of pin but there it is nonetheless. It is important that hetero men stand-up for their right to fantasize, to have a healthy individual sexuality just like anyone, without being shamed, silenced, or slandered for it.
@Zek … yup
Ongoing studies of the brain in both men and women are looking into differences both in physical composition and fucntion. Jury’s still out to say there is no difference.
women objectify men who are extremely attractive. They only objectify men who stand out in looks. When a man is very attractive women become very similar to men in their responses. Here are some comments by women on a gorgeous male model in underwear
“Damn…I wouldnt mind having a roll i the hay with him”
“how can I get pregnant from this?”
“I wouldnt mind being raped by him”
“Feel jealous of the girl in this pic/video”
Men, on the other hand, objectify a larger number of women. Not just the top quality ones. Men also objectify regular looking women. That is the only difference between men and women.
To put another way, if it comes to looks alone, women find very few men desirable. Women feel the lust for very few male bodies. Men can find a much larger number of women desirable for their looks and bodies alone.
Ask any hot/gorgeous guy and he will tell you that his experiences are not much different than those of a regular girl next door. Stares, smiles from women. sexual advances etc
That is how women are “morally superior”.
Blasphemous: I understand where you’re coming from, but women, like men, are not some hive-mind that operate the same way. You’re using a mile-wide brush to paint a very narrow stripe.
Now, to use your generalization for the sake of argument: While “those” women may lump a larger number of men into the “not a chance” category than their male counterparts, they might also tend to be more considerate to them. I’m not suggesting that “ugly” men have it any better than “ugly” women (they don’t,) but that women might be less likely to just ignore those they don’t find attractive than men of equivalent social standing.
What I’m saying is that all things considered, “men” and “women” are even on that point. Neither is “better” or “worse” or ahead or behind or whatever. Every advantage is neutralized by a disadvantage, and vice versa.
Also, most women (particularly those going to a site called “The Good Men Project”) are enlightened enough to know that having high standards and sexual restraint is not an indicator of “moral superiority.” Just like they know that men’s sexual proclivities are not the indicator of some inborn moral failing, or the result of societal indulgence. Most of them are aware that men and women are, in fact different.
There is an old saying that goes something like this. If you want to be good looking, stand next to ugly people. I spent a weekend with my high school class at a women’s college dorm. Even the guys who were not good looking or athletically built were getting some action. 15 to 18 year old boys probably seemed good compared to having nothing around. The high school girls started acting out. I think it was because they weren’t getting attention.
A guy who hasn’t seen any hot looking, young, women in a while would probably start checking out average looking or older women. The same goes for women who haven’t seen a hot looking guy (or any guy) in a while. Women might have a weaker libido and could go longer periods without reducing their standard of physical attraction. I don’t know.
Why do women like to hold incompatible myths ?
“men are more shallow on looks”
BUT
“men will shtupp anything that moves”
Men are conditioned to objectify women. Women are conditioned to objectify themselves. All we can do now is see the reality of the situation and how it’s not doing humanity any good. Women are upset, depressed, angry. Men are stuck in an illusion, a mirage. Nobody wins. If we want to avoid this problem in the future, for our children’s sake – we would have to throw our televisions out the window! You have to remain alert and aware at all times, you will find on almost any television show there are hidden messages, of all kinds.
Well, in a way, I agree. The very large number of men who DON NOT objectify women in the traditional sense (I.E. by showing gross disrespect for them as a person due to their appearance) in order to compensate, are conditioned to treat them as unapproachable. Not to see them as regular people whom they could treat as casually as any man, but as “special cases” who must only be talked to or thought of only in certain ways, at certain times and under certain strictures. In short, these men are conditioned to *fear* women in an almost religious sense of reverence, rather than to respect them. Which can, for some men, lead to a sense of betrayal when they juggle that against the reality that women are *JUST* people. Some of the biggest misogynists I’ve tried to debate started this way. It’s sort of like how some of the most outspoken atheists have been raised in ultra-religious homes.
Instead of seeing women as ordinary, everyday people, they think “she’s too good for me” or “I can’t just talk to/look at her. That’s disrespectful.” In short, they’re reverse-objectifying them. That’s one of the “hidden messages” we men see on almost any television show. “They’re out there and they’re beautiful, but looking at them is disrespectful, you worm. Especially for the likes of you. Shame on you. Look. Don’t look! Look. WHY ARE YOU LOOKING?”
-Men are conditioned to objectify women. Women are conditioned to objectify themselves. All we can do now is see the reality of the situation and how it’s not doing humanity any good.
(Magic Mike? Beef Cake Superhero Movies, Sport Groupies… Hello?)
Sexuality is commodified in westernized culture as motivating force to drive male productivity (get the car get the job get the hot wife) The men who can’t attain the necessary social capital for courtship are just window shopping.
Problem with this hit piece is that it states quite openly that only men objectify. (only men “window shop” perspective mates).
Sexuality is commodified to favor commercially attractive women and that’s all our’s fault.
Men are always to blame when women objectify themselves.
standard…
“Sexuality is commodified in westernized culture as motivating force to drive male productivity”
It’s true.
Many women still instinctively seek a man who can provide. Many men still like to find a good looking (healthy) woman to be mother of his children. Companies advertise with this in mind, and we’re easily exploited. I wonder if men ever feel like their worth is dependant on their success? It’s okay for a woman to be unsuccessful- so long as she’s attractive.
I think it’s impossible to prevent men or women from appreciating each other’s outer beauty. There’s no harm in finding someone else attractive.
Some women still feel like their worth is dependant on their looks. Any woman that feels this way needs to find meaning in her life. If you feel that way, man or woman, it just shows that you live in such a shitty superficial world. There’s more to life than looking good, and you probably don’t want to attract superficial a-holes anyways! If you feel objectified, it’s because you probably objectify yourself and now it’s up to you (women) to heal their own wounds. A man cannot save you. Nobody else can.
In a better world people would love each other for who they are on the inside not for their looks or the size of their wallets.
Evolution continues…
How do you know that such a world would be much better? We would like or dislike people for who they truly are – are we ready for that?
If you’re disliked for lack of money, you can at least buy a lottery ticket, or maybe work harder at something, or take solace that the world is very superficial, dream a little even. Being disliked for who you truly are is a deep hole to crawl out of. Maybe the system works better when there is a superficial layer of superficial protecting our ass
I guess I should have said TO ME it would be a better world.
FYI Sarah Webster, plenty of men gauge their worth based on how often they get laid, how many women they get laid with, and whether or not they’re getting laid at all(not to mention their sex appeal towards women). So it really goes both ways. This article takes the cake as the dumbest article to ever be posted on this site.
Wow, that is probably the most offensive, lazy comment ever written on this site. You do realize that women are actual human beings too, right? Wives and mothers also get f**ed and have a sexual appetite. Fun women can also love true companionship and be nurturing.
That was in response to dave’s comment. I don’t know why it ended up down here.
It was probably killed by a moderator. And probably for the reasons you cited. When a comment is taken out like that the replies to it are dropped to the bottom of the page like yours did.
First of all, I think the math of it has a role to play. The number of women I find visually attractive is far greater than the number of women I could ever have a conversation with, and this is more than I could ever get to know personally. I’m not choosing to look at women INSTEAD of getting to know them. It’s a matter of time, numbers, desires, and imagination.
There’s a difference between 1) thinking about a particular person in a sexual way and 2) reducing all people in the group to sex objects and acting like they are simply sex objects and nothing else.
And, it’s not a simple either/or binary. Finding someone physically attractive does not mean that all other considerations fly out the window. I know it’s popular to think men have a one-track mind about sex and a limited brain capacity, but we can actually be attracted to someone AND respect someone at the same time.
Sometimes critical analysis of objectification shades into thought policing. There’s a totalitarian streak that rears its ugly head when some people talk about objectification, like we need to purify our thoughts of any counter-revolutionary contamination. We must make ourselves more internally perfect, to make our internal lives more in tune with what the collective needs from us. When we think inappropriate thoughts, it hurts society. The impersonal, unjust, enemy forces are strong, and we must be ever-vigilant against them if we are to create a true utopia of completely new human beings.
Shudder.
wellokaythen- Great points. I think the main problem is that “finding a number of women attractive” (which is not a learned/conditioned behavior, nor in any way indicative of disrespect,) is lumped in with truly disrespectful behaviors, such as catcalling, inappropriate remarks, etc. A guy who does those things is trying project sexuality upon a woman, whereas a guy who is just looking is… well, just looking.
Seriously, the number of people responding to this article who think someone has to meet certain standards just to THINK about them a certain way is perplexing. Almost as much so as those who think that a guy’s tendency to look is somehow a product of society rather than… well the result of having functioning eyes.
@Travis, It should not be perplexing for women to ask for respect and to ask to be met with certain standards, whether they get it or not. Now, as far as just looking, a man can certainly do that. He has the right to look as much as he wants. Women are not trying to stop men from looking and it is ridiculous for you or any man to sarcastically suggest that!! In general, women do not want to stop you men from just looking, but be for real and be fair Travis, when a man makes inappropriate and nasty remarks to a woman, WE HAVE A RIGHT TO BE UPSET AND OFFENDED.
What I’d also like to ask you Travis, is how would you feel if some men heckled, made catcalling and other inappropriate remarks to your mother, wife, daughter, girlfriend, grandbaby girl, sister, and your grandmother. Would you be perplexed when those females I just named, responded with the need to be met with certain standards?
Moderator’s note: this message has been edited to remove policy-violating comments.
Jean- Of course you have a right to be offended by deeds and behaviors that are disrespectful. Which is exactly what I said when I said those were truly disrespectful behaviors. And yes, I would feel my wife or mother, daughter, etc. had every right to stand up for themselves if they were heckled, leered at (as opposed to looked at) or catcalled. Nothing I posted suggests that I accept or condone those behaviors, so I’m not sure why you would suppose I disagree.
Those are behaviors, not THOUGHTS or momentary glances. I’m only “sarcastically suggesting” that people are against looking or fantasizing (which is also not wrong) because… well, numerous people on this comment thread have said that guys basically have no right to look at women or think of them in sexual ways unless they know them well, and have falsely equated that with objectification.
Also, on the moments of deeds vs. thoughts and respect. “Respect” means a lot of things to different people. Many people use it interchangeably with the word Courtesy to mean the basic sort of respect one gives to someone else as an equal. Courtesy-respect is exhibited in words and deeds. Speaking to someone appropriately, and not physically or verbally accosting them. One can be perfectly courteous to someone without having any respect for them, or even knowing them. Honoring their physical and verbal boundaries. And that’s all that’s needed for people we don’t know.
However, the word “Respect” can also be used to mean the sort of loyalty, goodwill and high regard one has for someone whom they know to be trustworthy. Honoring someone in thought and attitude as well as deeds and words. Courtesy-respect is what we show strangers and acquaintances. True Respect is what a person gives to friends, family, loved ones or people in other relationships to whom one chooses to give it.
The reason I draw the distinction is because everyone deserves the courtesy of physical and verbal boundaries. But True Respect, honoring mental and emotional boundaries, for men OR women, is something that is earned or given out of extreme kindness. Neither men nor women are entitled to it by right of chromosomes or past hardship.
And, I wonder when people ask for respect if they are only talking about external behavior, or do they mean internal thoughts as well? I’m totally on board with the idea that one should act respectfully when noticing someone’s physical attractiveness. If I behave disrespectfully, you should call me on my garbage.
Requesting me to think a certain way in order to stop objectifying women, or telling me that my thoughts are disrespectful, is crossing the line, in my opinion. You have every right to express an opinion about the way I think and even request I think differently, but I’m not going to police my interior life to make other people comfortable. My fantasies about someone else don’t hurt that other person.
I don’t think I will ever apologize for a “look in my eye” or for what goes on in my head, even if a woman properly identifies what the look in my eye means and guesses correctly what the fantasy is. To expect me to do apologize for internal stuff is to cross over my boundaries.
BTW, when I say “you,” I mean the general you, not “you Travis.”
The reason men gawk at women is because they were not taught, as children, that they have a God-given right to purity and they don’t understand that the purity they have been pre-programmed for is a spiritual purity and beauty that far surpasses anything they can find or experience in the physical realm. Once a man learns this basic truth, his life begins to conform to a life of spiritual order and this gift comes from Christ. Until a man learns it, his life belongs to the realm of ignorance and is under the command of their earthly managers, the fallen angels. The right to purity was won for all by the Blessed Virgin Mary, who had received the grace to consecrate her virginity to God for the sake of humanity. Unlike Eve, when the angel came to her, she knew to ask the right question. Asking the right question is a sign of grace, and I like the author for the grace I see at work. Wonderful.
Are you suggesting those who do gawk, who do feel lust and allow it are somehow dirty? Why should men conform to any life? Are they not allowed free will?
The Flying Spaghetti Monster, peace be upon him, has told me in his sacred pamphlet that he wants me to look at women, because that is the way that he made me, and to deny my gawking instinct is to deny the glory of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and to spurn his infinite grace and mercy. Glory be to the one who gave me retinas to see his marvelous creations.
Wheeee, religion is fun!
First of all, WTF makes you people think that women don’t gawk at men. I have both observed and personally known women who enjoy revealing as much skin as they can legally get away with in public. And one of them told me directly that she knows full well that men are going to gawk at her and she enjoys the attention. If you put your body on display in public, you ARE going to attract unwanted attention! People are free to aim their eyes wherever they choose. You DO however, have a right not to be raped, or touched by others without your consent. Mr Gaddis, this is something that you know gosh darn well you are NEVER GOING TO CHANGE.
You people don’t get it, eye contact IS NOT sexual harassment!
Ogling out of self-esteem issues is brought up a couple of times. I don’t get it. How does ogling raise men’s self-esteem?
Georgia, men ogling women does NOTHING for the observers self-esteem but certainly boosts the self-esteem of the observed(the woman being ogled). When women are admired sexually by male strangers, particularly when they dress sexy, they feel attractive and everyone wants to feel attractive!
Until it gets to creepy staring, which then makes them feel threatened. It’s all a balance…and not all people want to be oggled