American culture sends a message about the penis that is confused, at best. In the wake of Rep. Anthony Weiner’s dick-pic scandal, the theme that “wangs are ugly” spattered the Internet, the media (wrongly) assuming that’s just how most women feel. The Washington Post even ran a sweeping op-ed in which writer Monica Hesse mused, all too predictably: “How about a picture of you, sweaty, cleaning out the storm drain? So sexy!” And before all this, the first big laugh in this summer’s blockbuster Bridesmaids comes from the two main characters joking that penises are ugly and look angry.
So it seems like in American mainstream culture, “wangs are ugly,” but unlike the Greeks who dealt with penis anxiety by preferring petite genitals, we want ours super-sized anyway. Last year, a “kiss and tell all” account of how Mike “the Situation” Sorrentino had a “small penis” was passed around the Internet with zeal. Penis shaming, it seems, is culturally acceptable. Our mash-up mantra seems to be: wangs are ugly but we, as the ’90s club-hit chimes, “don’t want no short dick man.”
Read the full article— with interesting coverage of small-penis support groups, plastic surgery and pornified conceptions of penis size– on AlterNet.
@doctormindbeam, JM I’ll say this: the most successful/skilled male swingers who I’ve known were always described as “better” (fitnesswise, sizewise, facewise, etc.) than the non-preffered men. My German paramour used to drag me (heh heh) to clubs to show me off. The more popular men would appear “normal” to me, but you wouldn’t know that if you’d listen to the descriptions given by their female lovers/partners/conquests. There was a guy who had a literal microphallus and a large gut and a combover; he was usually described as “chubby and a little below average in the pants, but so much fun!”… Read more »
@Cheradenine: Thanks for the link. I’m really enjoying reading this analysis now.
@DMB I’m kind of wondering now how one can seriously argue that “standard model” porn isn’t more objectifying of men than women According to this research, it is more objectifying of men than women. It’s summarised by Dr Magnanti: 838 scenes from popular porn films were assessed by three separate coders […] overall, women in the films talk to other characters more frequently and spend more time doing it. They have more time talking to the camera, and spend longer looking at the camera than their male counterparts. They are not only the focus, but also the central characters in… Read more »
@kaija: a lot of women (including me) complain that the guys in porn are not picked because they are attractive, just because they have a big dick, and that doesn’t do it for us. We’d like to see a range of different looks and body types (because we all like different things) and just a cock shot isn’t as interesting as one that shows the guy’s face and the rest of him. To that end, I prefer gay and bi porn, which has a lot more body diversity and gives me more of what *I* like…hot guys (vs. disembodied big… Read more »
Dr. Anonymous, I don’t at all doubt that that has been what you’ve observed, but I’m just putting it out there that what you describe is not at ALL what I have in my personal experience. There really are more perspectives, opinions, and attitude out there than any of us are aware of, and one big reason I’m glad we have a place like this to share them. Same thing with the whole “game” discussion…it’s like hearing about a completely foreign culture to me, because I have never run into that flavor of interaction or dating and no one I… Read more »
@kaija24
The problem is that for every woman who claims that size isn’t that important it is very easy to find two women raving about how they don’t want short dicked men.
The discussion on men in porn isn’t what is usually heard from feminist circles. There it is only focused on the objectification and degradation of women.
As a woman who adores men and their bodies, my personal opinion and that of many of my friends is that extremes on either end (very tiny/micropenis or very large) are not enjoyable, but the huge range in between is great provided the guy knows that sex is not just PIV intercourse and that jackhammering away ala porn is not the only way 🙂 Really, we’re much less concerned with penis size than you are…and it makes me sad that so many men seem insecure or concerned that they don’t measure up; if we’re sexually attracted to you/sleeping with you,… Read more »
I think the penis discussion is quite interesting. There is a lot of discussion about porn being objectifying towards women. Yet, there is porn with all kinds of women, small, big, clothed, naked, fat, thin, big boobs, no boobs and so on. But where is the porn with men other than having big dicks?
I think a part of women’s estimation of penis size is just an optical illusion. An average penis on a buff 6’4” man looks smaller than the same penis on a scrawny 5’8” man.
@MaMu1977: I’ve noticed that if I perceive someone as confident, then I tend to remember them as taller than they really are, which I think is the same effect. Basically, given two traits that we have come to associate with each other, we are predisposed to assume an excess of one implies an excess of the other, and that can skew our memories.
@MaMu1977: Interesting anecdote! Do you think it’s something natural (i.e., some biological impulse to thinking that), or just a response to the cultural perspective on penis size?
My take on why men may be concerned with size is the fact that their first experience seeing a penis(other than themselves) would usually be with an adult male. Even an average size cock would seem enormous compared to their own. Do you think that could potentially cause someone to underevaluate themselves. 😉
Here’s something odd that I’ve noticed about women (at least, about every woman who I’ve ever slept with on a regular basis): the better the lover (male), the “larger” his penis. Candidly speaking, (if I weren’t black and therefore “average sided for a ‘black guy’), I could do porn. However, prior female lovers of mine have exaggerated my penis size by inches (my current lover swore that I was ten inches until I grabbed a measuring tape, my long-term lover in Germany wrote about me in her blog and described me as her “30-cm dumpling.”) Bottom line, better=bigger (and not… Read more »
I linked to this study that was recently in the news on another post but figured it was interested here as well: http://www.nature.com/aja/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/aja201175a.html If you read the Discussion section, the authors give an overview of a whole bunch of studies that were done on penis size, the varying results, and some possible contradictions and problems with the studies, including data collection methods and assumptions, including the “size and race” meme which is definitely influenced by cultural stereotypes, self-reporting, and in the case of actual scientific studies, may be compromised by measurement method: “…studies have not found a relationship between penis… Read more »
I know I am late to the party, but I wanted to thank you for posting this article and raising this issue in general because it is one that is very important to me. I find that in a lot of supposedly feminist spaces, particularly the more mainstream ones like Jezebel, dick-shaming is pretty common, even when body-shaming and listing ” numbers” are supposed to be banned. Criticising, speculating about and policing other people’s bodies is ALWAYS wrong to me, and it’s inexcusable to not extend this to people with penises. Honestly, though, I know I wouldn’t be so concerned… Read more »
Welcome to the blog. Thank you for commenting. 🙂
@doctormindbeam: and two, you’re “protecting” yourself by saying, “Wanna sue me? Gonna have to say, ‘I have a small dick’ then.”
That’s exactly why she recommends this. I don’t know how seriously she takes her own advice on this, and I quoted it not because I approve of it, but as an illustration of how completely shameful this is perceived to be.
Right. Anne Lamott’s persona is based around being lovably obnoxious and saying the things that no one else will say, and the whole “penis size” thing falls into that: she’s saying that it’s so shameful for a man to have a small penis that giving a fictional character based on him one will protect you from libel.
What’s interesting is that I can’t think of something that works equivalently for a woman. Weight isn’t secret the way a small dick is; sluthood has at least a chance of being viewed as “empowering”…
No, it really doesn’t, because accusing somebody of being a slut is like saying PLEASE, SUE MY ASS INTO OBLIVION tattooed on your forehead.
Don’t really see how that’s true, but okay.
What’s an element that cuts to the heart of a woman’s anxiety about her virility or femininity?
Um, don’t really want to encourage anxiety (or bring up a cause of pain and sadness for many people) but possibly just that : virility [read fertility vs barrenness]
[Note to moderators : PLEASE remove this and the above comment if you think it’ll encourage abuse]
Well, that would be the equivalent then. Writing about her “barrenness.”
Right, I understand.
I *knew* I still had this post on penis size kicking around somewhere. Ozy, I’d love to get your input. Er, on the post, I mean.
I had an SO who told me he’d never measured his penis. It seemed about average, he’d never had any complaints, it worked like it was supposed to, and so he figured a number would just lead to needless anxiety. I found this to be a very sensible attitude,
I know you didn’t ask for my input, but here it is anyway: How can you speak for all women and say, “Yes, penis size does make a difference. Bigger cocks are better.,” and “For most women, I’d call it an occasional preference: big is better, but not all the time.?”
I’m happy to have your input, but…..I get the impression you stopped reading after the first sentence you didn’t like. “Yes, penis size does make a difference. Bigger cocks are better. Explanation, then qualifiers:” ….and then the disclaimer, “Most obviously, your mileage may vary.” It isn’t ‘huge cocks are exactly what every woman wants’ (and of course there’s the issue of ‘bigger’ usually meaning the number of inches in length, which is a little beside the point.) And: “And, of course, it’s not like average is bad. Potential space, remember? We’re clearly evolved for an average penis to be just… Read more »
No, I read the entire thing, including your explanations. It just seems strange to me that you can speak so generally on the subject. I’ve met women who said the opposite: That they never prefer big cocks, and would actually rather have a smaller one than a bigger one if it couldn’t be average. I’m not saying all women are like that, but that’s my point: I’m not saying all women are like that. I may prefer a woman to have larger rather than smaller breasts if they can’t be average (not that it matters a great deal), but I’d… Read more »
I wasn’t saying all women are like that, either, which I thought was kinda clear from the post, but communication is a two-way street and all that.
Personally, I don’t give a fuck about penis size. I don’t even know whether the men I’ve had sex with are big, small or average: all the penises seemed pretty much penis-sized to me, and they all did the job excellently. I can see where too small or too large would be a concern (too small and you can’t feel anything, too large and it hurts) but either of those can be easily overcome with communication and creativity.
Interestingly, after the first time I posted that, a friend of mine (who tends toward the submissive) told me that, actually, she really got off on the “oh my god it’s so huge my jaw hurts” thing. *shrug*
Yes, I myself have a huge problem with penis size insecurities, even though I know I have an above average penis, but due to the whole thing of growing watching porn, where every single guy is at least 9”+ it has been a real problem for me, I have even gone into bouts of depression over it. Not to mention what kind of effect polls like this will have on young men: http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/5407/results And I know that the average penis size is the perfect fit for most women, because it evolved to be, but it has just been programmed into… Read more »
Another cause of penis insecurities are superficial bumps, like fordyce’s spots, which are harmless and quite common.
That’s why I believe that sex ed. should not just focus on std’s and the risks of having sex, but also deal with the mental part of sex, including the insecurities about your body that come with being sexualy active.
Just remember that people lie tremendously on the Internet, and the vast majority of women I’ve talked to prefer, as you said, an average sized penis — or even, if it has to be not-average, slightly smaller rather than larger. The way I think about penis size is this: Yes, it matters, in the way that breasts matter or butts matter or anything else sexual matters. But it matters only to a certain degree, and in extremes. So long as you’re not extremely large or small it’s probably not a problem, and even then, it’s just one component of sex.… Read more »
I have known some women who were ‘size queens’, but I have never, ever talked to a woman who was disappointed to learn that your average guy was not hung like Joe Pornstar.
I looked at the poll and it’s bogus. 37% claim they had sex with 10” plus guy. Problem is penises that large virtually don’t exist. It’s like claiming they had sex with a guy who is 8 foot tall, not entirely impossible but very, very unlikely. I doubt that most size-queens would be happy if they encounter an actual 10” dick.
Not to mention it’s REALLY not a scientifically valid poll: the sample is a “convenience sample” (i.e. it consists of women who want to take the poll) which is probably very different from the overall population, including having an overrepresentation of size queens. In addition, people may lie in the poll or be mistaken about their partner’s penis size. We don’t even know if everyone involved is female.
Yeah, I know it is by no means accurate, I’m just saying that if you are already insecure about your size, and stumbled across a poll like that, it probably would do nothing to help you, if not make you even worse.
Plus, I think that the majority of the people that voted in that poll were either men, or joking about it, I’m just talking about the effect something like that could have on someone.
Well, then, we agree. 🙂 Penis size is one of the things I plan to post about this week…
@ozy: In a whole series of posts about penises, I understand!
“The Internet: Where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents.”
In other news, people lie on the Internet. 🙂
Misterpoll is notorious for being a fetish-reinforcement sit. Go on there and search for something like “peeing” or “spanking” and see what you get. I’ve used it as a free porn source myself. It’s a fun way of pretending that one’s most esoteric and bizarre sexual fantasies are TOTALLY HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, because look how many people say they’re doing it. 🙂
@ozymandias42
Yes I know its quite common. But its not like that makes it okay. Was just trying not to get into that here (and I’m betting someone here is planning on posting on it soon anyway).
You mean kind of like circumcision? Neither is cool at all.
I think in small part a problem is the mixed messages when it comes to penis size. Just as there are women (and I’m only saying women because that seems to be where this conversation is going) that don’t care that much about it there are others who will go straight to penis size when looking for a quick zinger remark. Leaves a lot of guys thinking, “If penis size doesn’t matter then why do people insult it?” (I’m betting women get similar mixed messages too.)
People frequently say whatever they think will get them the reaction they want. It doesn’t have to be true, and it doesn’t have to be relevant. Try to remember when you were in 7th grade. I told my daughter at the time that people mature out of that kind of thing and I feel bad now that I probably was lying to her.
True. But I’m of the mind that in this case (like with many others) such words feed into a larger dynamic, like in this case about trying to shame men about their penis size. That larger dynamic is what allows those words to get the desired effect. Wouldn’t do much good in insult a guy’s penis size if the culture wasn’t so uptight about it.
And obviously such remarks are not limited to the halls of middle school.
Oh, absolutely. But I was remembering that when my daughter was in 7th grade a boy told her that her butt was big. How’s that for gendered putdown. It wasn’t remotely true (not that it would have been OK if it was.) I told her to tell him that when he was a grown man, and not a little boy anymore, he’d appreciate a butt on a woman. I don’t think she told him that but it made her feel better.
Of course, not everyone hates big butts. Just ask Sir Mix-A-Lot. 🙂
Also, have begun to see articles mentioning parents having cosmetic surgery on their baby daughters’ genitals. My first thought was – who in the world is looking? The term for that part of the body used to be “privates”. I guess, not anymore.
Without tipping over the obvious can of worms I will comment that it is pretty terrible how so many people seem to want to have a say in what someone’s genitals look like.
Genital surgery for infants is actually fairly common: in addition to circumcision for men, there’s all the various ways intersex children are mutilated to make them fit into the box of one sex or the other.
Anne Lamott has an essay on writing where she talks about how to avoid getting sued by a former SO who thinks a character in your novel is based on him: first, obviously don’t make it exactly like him so that anybody can guess who it is, but make it more of a composite character so people do not say “Oh my God, that’s Marcus”; and second, describe him as having a tiny penis. It’s because it’s the obvious sore spot. I guess it’s the equivalent of “oh yeah? well you’re an ugly fat bitch”, except that there’s a lot… Read more »
Damn, that’s a low blow. One, you’re saying, “Hurr hurr, you have a small dick, ex,” and two, you’re “protecting” yourself by saying, “Wanna sue me? Gonna have to say, ‘I have a small dick’ then.” It would kinda be like writing a book with a character about an ex girlfriend, and including a graphic description of her “hideous labia,” cellulite, and stretch marks.
I knew a man for whom enhancing the size of his penis was a fetish. He was into the idea of hanging weights on it and spent a lot of time measuring it (though he was realistic about surgery not being a good idea) and sometimes needed to be told something like “size matters and yours is big” in order to get off. I’m going to guess that this sort of fetish is pretty common, and that while it overlaps with penile dysmorphic disorder, it can also exist separately, and you conflate them at your peril. In the case I’m… Read more »
Personally, I’m a fan of the dick. I like how it looks and feels and blah blah blah blah. I’m not the biggest fan of just dick shots; I like seeing it in “context” so to speak. This whole penises are ugly thing seems really weird and immature to me. And dick size. DICK SIZE! Jesus christ, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been having regaling my girl friends with details of my sexcapades and one of the first questions out of their mouth is “How big was his dick?” Usually I kind of roll my eyes, look… Read more »
In my opinion, an average-sized penis is a perfectly-sized penis. 🙂
Interesting: Why would that (their reactions/questions) be the case if, for most women, size “doesn’t matter?” (I.e., it matters to some degree that you not be extreme on either side, but in the average it’s just one element.)
Something can have gossip value, without mattering intrinsically.
If you have multiple eyewitnesses to the same penis, they often volunteer wildly different reports on its size – reporting on the penis size is one of those things that embellishes the story, and if you want to embellish the story even more, you describe the penis as being huge. (Other attributes get embellished too… but it takes very little creativity to insert the penis size into a story, whereas if you’re going to put in his funny looking birthmark, that’s less flattering and you’re held to a higher standard of accuracy.)
Honestly I have no clue. The whole penis size thing has never really made sense to me? But then again, I’ve also been guilty of the whole “Oooooh” big dick ogling/admiring thing. I didn’t really believe in it but i was still doing it. Maybe it had something to do with, you know, being a part of and interacting with a group? I don’t know, it’s weird.
But anyway, I’m with ozy; average sized is definitely best. And penis sized has absolutely NO effect on how good of a lover you are.
Me and the other porn-for-women editors I know have all heard from female readers that they want to see more dick, they just don’t want it to be the central be-all and end-all of the shot like it too often is in “mainstream” porn. So clearly there’s some healthy aesthetic appreciation of the wang out there. Which, of course, does nothing to alleviate the insecurity over dick size that’s (forgive me) rampant among men. I can’t even begin to imagine how one would start to change that. The depth of the damage is illustrated by this SMBC strip, for example:… Read more »
Exactly. Like how straight male porn stars are just there for the big cock and are usually ugly in the rest of their body. I shouldn’t have to go to gay twink porn to get actual pretty, damnit. In terms of size, as a woman I like very much said, “it’s not the size of the boat, it’s the motion of the ocean” that matters most.
You know, I’m bi, and I want to see both men and women in my het porn: not woman and “some dude’s dick and his hip.” Especially if the guy is actually cute, as sometimes happens.