How Dyslexia and ADHD Helped a First-Time Novelist With Ryan Douglass [Video]

His young adult novel, “The Taking of Jake Livingston,” is a best-seller on Amazon. Find out how dyslexia and ADHD shaped Ryan Douglass’ unique approach to writing. He also shares how being Black and LGBTQ impacts his learning differences.

To find a transcript for this episode and more resources, visit the episode page at Understood. https://www.understood.org/podcast/ho…

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Understood is a nonprofit and social impact organization dedicated to shaping a world where the 1 in 5 people who learn and think differently can thrive. Learn more about “How’d You Get THAT Job?!” and all our podcasts at u.org/podcasts. Copyright © 2021 Understood for All, Inc. All rights reserved.

Transcript provided by YouTube (unedited)

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[Music]
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hi i’m eleni and i’m a user researcher
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that means i spend my days talking with
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people with learning and thinking
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differences people with challenges like
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adhd dyslexia and more i listen to what
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they have to say and how they feel and i
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make sure that their experiences shape
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what we do and understood
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after speaking with literally hundreds
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of people and hearing literally
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thousands of stories we realize how easy
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it is to feel alone
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but we also realize that when people
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hear stories of others who learn and
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think differently it can change
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everything so we started to ask a simple
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question
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could it be that people find fulfilling
0:41
jobs and careers not in spite of their
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difference but because of them we’re
0:45
making this podcast how’d you get that
0:47
job because we want people with learning
0:49
and thinking differences to have
0:51
inspiring role models in jobs and
0:53
careers who are amazing at what they do
0:55
and we want to help people see how to
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zone in on their own unique strengths at
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work
1:01
today we’re talking to ryan douglas the
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best-selling young adult fiction writer
1:05
from atlanta
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we talked about his struggles with adhd
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and dyslexia early on in his career and
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how that experience helped bring his
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story to life
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[Music]
1:19
ryan douglas is a black queer writer
1:23
from atlanta georgia with adhd and
1:25
dyslexia he just published his first
1:28
novel which is a horror fiction
1:31
bestseller on amazon which is super cool
1:34
that was my introduction for you i would
1:36
love you to share how you identify and
1:39
how you would introduce yourself i’m
1:42
ryan douglas i am 26 years old and i
1:45
just came out with my first y a horror
1:47
novel the taking of jake livingston
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which is out now through
1:51
penguin young readers so i identify as
1:55
black queer non-binary and a person with
1:59
adhd and
2:01
dyslexia i think the intro you gave was
2:03
pretty good
2:04
i am a writer from atlanta and i’ve been
2:08
writing since i was very young did a
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little bit of journalism when i was in
2:11
college and got into that and after
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college i was writing for a few digital
2:16
magazines
2:18
and also working on my first book so i
2:20
got my book deal a few years ago and the
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reception has been awesome and
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yeah that’s where i am now i think that
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often there’s an association with people
2:31
with dyslexia not necessarily being
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drawn to like reading or writing and in
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your instance it was something that you
2:37
were really drawn to so i would love to
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hear what it is about adhd and or
2:42
dyslexia that you think makes you a good
2:44
writer
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so for dyslexia it’s one of those things
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that has always been a challenge when it
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comes to reading but
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i just love the written word so much
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that it’s just something that i was
2:57
able to
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rise to and not get over but experience
3:02
books the way that i do without judging
3:05
myself too harshly because i probably
3:07
don’t read books in the way that most
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people read them i do a lot of mood
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reading which is when i just it’s when
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you pick up a book and you read a few
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pages because you feel like you’re in
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the headspace of that particular book
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and then you pick up other books so i’ll
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usually read five books at a time wow
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and that’s also the adhd coming in
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because it’s i can’t focus on one thing
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at a time but
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did you always like books like even when
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you were a kid
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so i got really into picture books after
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reading a few dr seuss books and i
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started writing my own picture books and
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i was just like
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i think the first thing that really
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caught my attention was the pictures and
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then the rhyming and then the stories
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and
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as i got older i started reading chapter
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books and then i always read and i
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always felt like it was something that
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helped me communicate too because i
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wasn’t very vocal as a kid so i started
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writing to express myself and it just
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never went away it’s just always been
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something that i’ve come back to express
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and escape
4:05
mood reading i’ve never heard of that
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term is that something is that orionism
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or is that a term that is out there in
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the world
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i think it’s out there i actually heard
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that on twitter someone was talking
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about mood reading and how people with
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adhd mood read and that it shouldn’t be
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stigmatized and i looked into that and i
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was like that’s totally me
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mood reading i love that tim just read
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for the vibes yeah that’s really cool
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i’m into that okay okay so you mentioned
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reading and adhd and dyslexia you
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haven’t talked about the writing side
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yet
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i think that when it comes to writing it
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actually helps me with the word play
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like sometimes i’ll write sentences that
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don’t immediately make sense but the
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structure of them is interesting and
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then when i rework them i can make them
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make sense and it has like a it almost
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gives it a poetic style because the
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words are arranged in an interesting way
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so i think that’s how dyslexic has
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helped adhd has really helped with the
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way that i
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focus i write in like nine hour bursts
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at a time because i get into hyper focus
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then it’s the only thing i can focus on
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obviously there are days when i feel
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like
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i can’t write anything because i just
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get so distracted and then days when i’m
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just like so in the zone that nothing
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can rip me out of it and i think that’s
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helpful for productivity even if it is
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hard to schedule your life around
5:25
something like that yeah
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so you mentioned hyper focus i would
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love to hear a little bit more about how
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that feels for you in your brain and in
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your body
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so it’s two sides of a coin sometimes i
5:37
just cannot focus long enough to finish
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a chapter and then sometimes i get
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irritable when i’m in that zone and
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people try to bother me i’m just like
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why are you trying to bother me why
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don’t you understand that i can’t focus
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on anything right now and people are
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just kind of like what are you talking
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about you can take a break and i’m like
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no i can’t and the thing about writing a
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book is that there are so many things
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that have to be active at one time
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you’re focusing on the one book but
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you’re focusing on character story plot
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scene work setting and sometimes all
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these things are just playing in my head
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it’s like when you’re watching a movie
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you’re focused on the movie you know a
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lot of stuff is happening but you’re
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looking at the movie and that’s what
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happens in my brain
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and when the movie is really clear to me
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i just have to put it down and if it’s
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coming to me i just can’t break out of
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that
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so
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you know you mentioned that hyper focus
6:32
really actually helps you with
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productivity and you figured out that
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what works for you is doing these longer
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nine hour stints and just really
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absorbing yourself in that hyper focus
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and in the writing what led up to that
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realization
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over the years i’ve just learned to
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honor the way that i work and focus on
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the fact that when work is getting done
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that’s the main objective because
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there’s a lot of advice out there about
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how you’re supposed to work not just
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right but how you’re supposed to work
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and how you’re supposed to organize
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yourself and i think that some of that
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structure is really helpful for like
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outlining and that’s the one thing that
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i do have trouble with because i’m such
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a vibes person that like when i have to
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sit down and like be meticulous
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that’s where i’m like oh god i’ll never
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get through this but i think just over
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the years i realized that i i just have
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to do it the way that i do it and the
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way that i get things done and try to
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make everything else that i have to do
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and all my life responsibilities work
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around that i know that you’ve had other
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stints like in other types of work and
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i’m interested in how
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adhd or dyslexia has come up for you in
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other settings in other environments and
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if that also contributed to you
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realizing what works for you and what
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doesn’t are there any particular moments
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in previous jobs that you think have led
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you to where you are now
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when i worked in retail it was just a
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mess especially at the beginning when i
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had to
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stock shelves which seems like a really
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simple thing to do stocking shelves but
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i get lost in my head a lot there are
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moments when i was moving fast and then
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there were moments when i would just get
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in my head and just go off on tangents
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and like outwardly i would be putting
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things on the shelf in slow motion and i
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wouldn’t even realize that until my
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super brushes would
8:19
come up and say you need more urgency
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rhymes you need to move and they had to
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keep telling me because i was like oh my
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gosh i’m just spaced out and that really
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made me realize okay this like
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fast-paced kind of environment is maybe
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not for me not because i can’t work fast
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but just because my brain is just doing
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that
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so when your boss at the time came up to
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you and said gonna work with more
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urgency what are you doing
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how did that make you feel how did you
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respond
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and how did you come to a place that you
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were like well actually this environment
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isn’t for me like this isn’t about me
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this is just about the environment
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around me
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oh gosh it took me so long to come to
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that realization i just felt so
8:57
misunderstood and it really sucks to
8:59
feel that way like even if you explained
9:02
it because you might be able to explain
9:04
it but you just feel like if they’re not
9:06
also dealing with something like adhd
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they’re just not going to get it or if
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they don’t know someone like they’re not
9:13
close to someone who has it to where
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they’re exposed to it when you say it it
9:18
might become worse because they might
9:20
make fun of you for it it’s not always
9:22
something where people are like oh
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i’m so sorry let me help you you know
9:26
you don’t always get the response that
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you want to get yeah oh it’s hard
9:30
so ryan can you tell us more about the
9:32
book and also how
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perhaps how you wrote it is influenced
9:37
by your adhd and dyslexia and also how
9:39
you consume books yourself
9:42
the book is called the taking of jake
9:44
livingston and it’s about a teen medium
9:47
jake livingston who can see the dead
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and
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his sanity starts to unravel in his
9:53
junior year because he’s being followed
9:55
by the ghost of a school shooter and
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this ghost wants to possess his body
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so it’s a coming-of-age story about a
10:02
boy going to some pretty dark places and
10:04
hopefully coming out the other side with
10:07
a renewed sense of self so it’s like a
10:09
superhero story but it’s told through a
10:11
horror format the scene ghost stuff is
10:14
an allegory for being spaced out and for
10:17
having adhd and specifically having
10:20
your traumas be the things that are
10:22
distracting you interesting i don’t
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think when i went down to write it i was
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thinking i’m going to do an allegory for
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adhd i think it just came out naturally
10:31
in the way that you see this character
10:34
navigate the world and you can tell that
10:36
he’s
10:37
not plugged in to
10:39
conversations like in the classroom at
10:41
home he’s always somewhere else in his
10:43
own mind i think that using that angle
10:45
really allowed me to put the experience
10:47
of a queer black teenager who was
10:50
neurodivergent on the page in a way that
10:52
satisfied horror readers and added an
10:54
interesting angle to it and it sounds
10:57
like there’s a little like a few
10:59
parallels with what we were talking
11:01
about earlier in terms of you coming out
11:03
of the other side and coming to a place
11:05
where you really own all of your
11:07
identities
11:08
yeah so the story really is about
11:12
finding the people who support you and
11:14
not allowing the people who don’t
11:16
support you to control your life and
11:18
control what you do
11:20
and it’s that journey that kind of
11:23
gives jake strength against his villain
11:26
who just kind of wants him to be so
11:28
he wants him to feel dispossessed of
11:31
himself in a literal way but also in an
11:34
emotional and psychological way so
11:37
his mission throughout the story the
11:38
villain’s mission is to
11:40
basically ruin jake’s support system
11:43
bring him away from his family bring him
11:45
more anxiety as he goes into school
11:47
because he goes to like a mostly white
11:48
prep school where he feels like he
11:50
doesn’t have a voice so he’s triggering
11:52
that throughout the book to make jake
11:54
feel depressed to make him feel like he
11:56
shouldn’t live in his own body anymore
11:57
and that’s the point when the ghost can
11:59
possess
12:00
the vessel according to the rules of the
12:02
dead world in this story so it’s about
12:05
how jake has to fortify those things
12:07
about himself and really believe in
12:09
himself because that’s what unlocks his
12:11
ultimate power to banish the evil wow i
12:14
love that allegory
12:16
so you mentioned mood reading can you
12:18
talk a little bit about how the way you
12:20
read books influence your writing style
12:23
yeah so it’s very fast paced
12:26
the chapters are pretty short and they
12:28
switch between the heroes perspective
12:30
and the villains perspective mostly
12:32
because i can’t focus on one character
12:35
for too long but it’s stuff like this
12:37
that’s like just adhd that when people
12:39
read it they’re like oh this is
12:40
intriguing oh it’s fast paced and it’s
12:43
just like me not being able to
12:45
focus
12:46
it’s not that i like it is that i made
12:48
these choices but i just know that when
12:51
i’m writing it i know the things that i
12:53
need to do to stay engaged and to finish
12:55
the book so it’s fast-paced because my
12:57
brain is fast-paced you know and that’s
12:59
how i read i read fast and i write fast
13:02
and it’s non-linear because
13:05
i just can’t stay in one place so i
13:07
think that yes it’s it’s craft and it’s
13:10
done with intention but it’s also done
13:13
because
13:14
that’s how that’s my brain works and my
13:16
bra and the way that my brain works is
13:18
how it translates on the page and some
13:19
people read it and say this pasting
13:21
drives me crazy like i’m being beat over
13:23
the head with events like every chapter
13:26
i read a review from a teacher who was
13:28
like
13:29
every chapter is over the top every
13:31
chapter is dramatic something crazy
13:33
happens in every chapter
13:35
you can’t win everyone but that’s what i
13:37
love about it yeah i like that it like
13:39
stimulates you and i think that people
13:40
with adhd when they pick it up they
13:42
don’t have to worry about reading long
13:44
info dumps or reading a lot of
13:46
exposition because you’re in it and
13:48
you’re just in it and you can flip pages
13:50
and it’s not wasting any time
13:52
you mentioned being black queer
13:54
non-binary someone with adhd and
13:56
dyslexia i imagine that these identities
13:59
intersect in like really interesting
14:01
ways and i wanted to share with you what
14:03
i’ve heard through my research is that
14:06
people with layered identities have like
14:09
two
14:10
different experiences one of the
14:12
experiences is okay well i’m already
14:14
othered i’m already on the margins so it
14:17
actually makes it easier to embrace all
14:19
of the differences and the other side of
14:21
that which i hear a lot particularly
14:23
from black folks is i’m already
14:26
struggling to fit into you know a white
14:28
dominant work culture and like feels
14:30
like there are more things stacked up
14:32
against them and i would love to hear
14:34
like how intersectionality shows up for
14:36
you
14:37
you know myself i’m like someone in my
14:38
30s and i’m looking at the tick tock
14:42
generation and i’m like wow like it
14:44
feels like you really are like are
14:46
owning all of your identities and as you
14:48
said you just state them in a very
14:50
matter-of-fact way and like i’m a little
14:52
bit envious it took me a really long
14:53
time to like embrace my queer identity
14:55
and it’s really amazing to see you being
14:58
like so open about all of these
14:59
identities so
15:01
i i’m particularly interested in like
15:02
how they intersect you know what it is
15:05
like to be
15:07
black queer and someone with a learning
15:09
difference
15:10
i was able to
15:12
say that i was gay in my early 20s when
15:14
i went to college just because i was
15:16
surrounded by a supportive environment
15:18
as for my blackness
15:20
that was a whole different thing and i
15:23
think it intersects in the sense that
15:26
when you’re black and gay you’re dealing
15:28
with like discrimination from your own
15:31
community i grew up in a really
15:33
religious community
15:35
and being gay was not something that was
15:38
celebrated i definitely think the
15:40
pivotal moment was being around people
15:43
who
15:44
understood that we exist and that we’re
15:46
not going anywhere and realizing that
15:50
you don’t have to be around people who
15:53
make you feel like you can’t be your
15:55
true self and i think that’s a hard
15:56
thing to let go of for
15:59
black people especially because we’re
16:00
like community is so important for us
16:02
and we have community spaces because we
16:04
have to convene and we have to stick
16:07
together in the face of white supremacy
16:10
but when you are gay you know there’s
16:12
like this whole language about the
16:14
masculinity of black men and how we have
16:16
to be masculine and i’m just not and
16:19
it’s like where do you belong do you
16:21
belong in the black community do you
16:23
want the gay community it’s that feeling
16:25
of just not having anywhere to go so i
16:28
just have had to
16:30
find other queer black friends who are
16:32
maybe neurodivergent but just understand
16:35
what it means to move through the world
16:36
and the way that i do i just rely on
16:38
those friendships totally
16:41
so
16:42
how did you come to the point where you
16:43
could be so comfortable with who you are
16:46
on my journey to accepting myself i just
16:49
had to do a lot of research first of all
16:51
and come to understand on my own
16:54
why i didn’t really fit in and
16:57
find other people like online or in real
16:59
life who also didn’t feel like they fit
17:01
in and just figure out what to do from
17:04
there and i really do think that at the
17:06
beginning of that journey it’s about
17:08
accepting yourself knowing what you can
17:11
change knowing what you can’t change not
17:13
stressing over things you can’t change
17:15
and just like realizing that this is
17:17
also part of me and all of it is part of
17:19
me
17:20
this might sound weird but i think that
17:22
twitter is a really helpful
17:24
resource for finding
17:27
friends and like other people who are
17:29
just
17:30
unapologetically black gay have their
17:33
thinking differences have disabilities
17:36
around 2016 when we had that that’s when
17:38
this big social justice wave was
17:41
starting i got on twitter and i started
17:42
following activists and
17:45
just seeing the way that they talk about
17:47
their identities that they talk about
17:49
their disabilities or just the way that
17:51
they own that and the way that they
17:53
claimed it and spoke about it and spoke
17:54
about the movement really inspired me so
17:57
the online community when you’re
17:59
isolated can be a lifesaver definitely
18:03
so what would you
18:04
say to the young people listening what
18:07
advice would you give them if they were
18:09
in the same situation it’s really just
18:11
about communicating owning your own
18:15
flaws and your own behaviors in a way
18:18
that
18:19
kind of makes people understand and i
18:21
think that when i was in those positions
18:23
where i felt like i was doing something
18:24
wrong it made me choke up and it made me
18:27
feel like oh my gosh i’m going to be
18:28
fired oh my gosh i’m going to get an f
18:30
and i just was like i’m a failure and
18:33
then it it went on rotation in my brain
18:35
oh gosh i just suck but that’s not the
18:38
case and there are ways to kind of
18:40
explain what’s going on and even if they
18:42
don’t understand it at least you try to
18:45
explain it and i think that’s something
18:47
i wish i knew and i wish i knew how to
18:49
sort of say to myself at first it’s okay
18:52
that this is happening just try to
18:54
express it rather than just think oh
18:57
they’re right i suck at this job because
18:59
that’s when your mind starts going and
19:01
you just become your own worst enemy at
19:03
that point
19:04
and it’s interesting if you state it in
19:06
a matter of fact way leaves it open to
19:08
the other person to ask more questions
19:09
if they want to ask more questions and
19:11
show curiosity and understand you you
19:13
know like a two-way street if you’re
19:15
feeling misunderstood that’s probably
19:16
because someone hasn’t made the effort
19:18
to understand right yeah it’s so much
19:20
easier for me not just with adhd but
19:22
with all of my identities to just state
19:25
them and not over explain because i know
19:28
that people are not going to understand
19:29
necessarily but it’s really not my
19:32
responsibility because there’s so much
19:34
info out there totally and anyone can
19:36
look up things if they want to know so i
19:38
just i’m who i am and i say who i am
19:41
it’s up to everyone else to do the
19:42
research
19:44
so you’ve written your first book what
19:46
do you think is next for you
19:49
so i’m working on
19:52
several different projects i think that
19:55
the ahd kind of becomes a detriment when
19:57
it comes to the drafting process or like
20:00
figuring out
20:02
what i’m interested in
20:04
enough about the world
20:06
to translate it into a book and sustain
20:09
a full narrative
20:11
and i’m actually i think
20:13
i might actually be a poet i really had
20:15
these dreams of having my stories put on
20:18
screen so that’s kind of why i got into
20:21
writing because it’s easier to put a
20:23
novel on screen than it is to put poetry
20:25
on screen but i feel like
20:28
i want to be able to bounce between
20:29
genres and i don’t always want to write
20:31
young adult horror but i’m still kind of
20:34
learning my style and some people want
20:36
me to write a sequel to
20:38
jake livingston but i feel like i my
20:41
adhd will not
20:43
allow me to
20:44
write any more of that because i’m like
20:46
done with it like i was like i focused
20:49
on this for too long now i just want to
20:51
i want to be free
20:54
awesome thanks for sending this time
20:56
with me rhinos so fun to have a
20:58
conversation with you yeah thank you so
21:00
much i really enjoyed this
21:02
[Music]
21:07
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21:12
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22:43
you

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