Paul Lanning talks his realization that he is a feminist, and tries to understand what that means in today’s world.
This article originally ran at Above The Field.
I never realized, until recently, that a man could be a feminist. It still sounds odd to me. When I hear the term I think of Gloria Steinem, or even of the mythical Rosie the Riveter from World War II. I never think of guys who believe in equality as ‘feminists.’ And maybe that’s part of the problem.
Feminism shouldn’t just be about strong women asserting themselves and vocally fighting for their place. It really should be about anyone and everyone who believes in equality standing up for those who traditionally have been and continue to be oppressed. This is true of gender as much as it’s true of races or religions (or the right not to practice a religion at all).
I grew up relatively oblivious. As a young white male in a relatively diverse California suburb attending public schools, I really never noticed overt signs of racism. And while I’m sure I was exposed to sexism, I didn’t recognize it. After all, I was a white male. What would I know?
In recent months I feel like I’ve had an awakening of some kind. Thanks to the rhetoric of the GOP primary season, I was spurred to start exploring what exactly was going on around me. I had trouble believing what I was hearing and seeing during the debates, and some of the restrictive legislation that was being proposed (and passed!) in states around the country. This surely wasn’t the Republican Party I was a part of decades ago, when I was a member of the College Republicans chapter on my college campus. The more I listened, the more I read, the less I could comprehend.
I recall flashing back at one point to a time in college when I stood listening to two Chinese students who had escaped their homeland after the Tiananmen Square massacre. It was one of the most moving experiences of my life, realizing both what these students and their peers had been through simply for espousing freedom, and how lucky (and sheltered) I was as a white male American. I got that same feeling recently, as I heard about women being censured for speaking out in the Michigan legislature, and Arizona passing a law allowing doctors to lie to women patients in the interest of putting the fetus ahead of the mother.
I began following the discourse more closely, and interacting with some fascinating writers who weren’t afraid to have their voices heard. I listened, and discovered that indeed I have been sheltered, and oblivious.
When conservative white males (and the lemmings among the female species who follow them) put their own religion ahead of basic human rights, I am appalled. When sexual misconduct is laughed at or downplayed, my stomach turns. When doctors are able to keep potentially life-threatening news from a pregnant woman in the name of religion, I am in disbelief.
I don’t think I’m in the minority. I don’t believe that the majority of white males in America believe women are second-class citizens, playthings kept around to keep men happy but not to have minds or wills of their own. I can’t imagine that’s the state of our society in the 21st Century, despite what I continue to read and hear.
Yesterday I read of a sexual assault in Washington DC that occurred not long ago. A bicyclist cruised up to a woman and stuck his hand up her skirt, violating her very being before riding away laughing. It would be easy to pass this off as an isolated incident of some pervert getting his kicks, except that this particular woman victim (Liz Gorman) wrote a blog about it, and hundreds responded with their own stories of similar experiences and worse.
Thank goodness this woman and others like her are speaking out instead of staying silent. Thank goodness they’re upsetting the status quo. Thank goodness they’re waking people like me up to what is going on around us every day.
It’s always been hard for me to fathom that just months after I was born, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated, or that not long before that, not every citizen in this country could vote. It’s hard for me to believe that when both of my grandmothers were children, their own mothers weren’t legally able to vote. And I wonder what is becoming of our hard-fought freedoms today when our society seems deeply divided like no time I can remember, and a powerful segment seeks to limit or deny basic rights of others.
I fear for our future when I see adolescent and college-age guys being spoon-fed rapacious porn and jocular yet overtly sexist advertising that just feed into their levels of testosterone at that age. Couple this with how we continue to muffle women’s voices about sexual needs and desires, and we are raising another generation of coarse, close-minded men who rally around Daniel Tosh and don’t think twice about their sense of privilege or entitlement. Basically: bad lovers, bad fathers, absentee husbands. I grew up knowing the experience of having an adulterous, alcoholic father, and far too often I was an absentee husband in my own failed marriage, far more focused on career than relationship. That cycle needs to stop.
The stereotypical male is a sexist pig. He sees women as merchandise to be gazed at, and groped at. He sees himself as the master of his domain, and sex as HIS enjoyment, or even as his conquest. He may know of boundaries, but often feels they don’t apply to him. He laughs at sexist jokes, he gawks at pretty ladies like a slobbering schoolboy, and he is enabled and empowered by an advertising industry that gears its print and television ads at him – because, after all, the stereotypical male is the head of household, the breadwinner, and the decision maker.
I know this firsthand. I ran numerous websites and published a sexy cheerleaders calendar years ago that pandered to this demographic, and did it well. I gave no consideration to the fact that I was feeding the sexism machine, subjugating and objectifying women in the interest of making a buck. After all, the models I worked with were professionals who were thrilled to be on the sites or in the calendars, and my target demographic was those stereotypical white males who buy the merchandise.
It’s time for feminism to be mainstream. It’s time for open-minded, forward-thinking men to realize that equality means embracing feminism. Feminism isn’t a bad word. It’s simply a cry for fairness in an unfair world dominated for far too long by a small segment of white males who have convinced too many of us that speaking out is wrong, that having a voice is a privilege rather than a right, and that somehow they know what’s best for all of us.
I shouldn’t be ashamed to be a white male. I shouldn’t feel like I need to explain myself and my views to women who automatically see me as a threat, or even as the enemy, simply because I am a white male. But I am, and I often do.
It’s far past time that men start listening, instead of always expecting to dominate the conversation. Only then will we be able to start ridding ourselves of the shameful stereotypes that we’ve been saddled with thanks to the brutish ways of many of our species.
I’m a white male, and now I know I’m also feminist. And thank goodness for that. THAT I don’t need to apologize for.
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Can we not state that feminism’s push for equality is inherently flawed when it fails to also recognize the plight and problems of men. Many feminists only recognize only women’s problems believing that men have it easier or do not have the same/similar problems. They will then push for protections only for women leaving those men behind, thus making it unequal.
Ah but therein lies the problem with stereotypes. When have a large numbers of individuals who are pron to seek false validation through the promotion of a stereotypical identity, why should we remain silent? Why not vocally challenge those who assume that chauvinism, masochism, and hedonism are the birthrights of the male sex?
Surly there are ample opportunities to grow from within as there will be opportunities to protect masculinity as a treasured culture.
Well, once again into the breach dear friends! As much as I want to congratulate and support Paul’s own growth as a person… I can’t. Not like this. Not when fundamentalism is pedestalized as Ultimate Truth. “Feminism … really should be about anyone and everyone who believes in equality standing up for those who traditionally have been and continue to be oppressed.” There is more than one path to gender equality than Feminism, and indeed other paths have been just as successful — if not more so. I too have the same reactions as Paul does to stories of oppression,… Read more »
It is really a surprise for me that somebody like the author who shows concern about equality for all is taking the controversial label of “feminism” instead of simply calling himself egalitarian which would be technically correct.
The stereotypical woman is one who laughs at misandry (sexism against males for those who don’t know). “It’s time for feminism to be mainstream. It’s time for open-minded, forward-thinking men to realize that equality means embracing feminism. Feminism isn’t a bad word. It’s simply a cry for fairness in an unfair world dominated for far too long by a small segment of white males who have convinced too many of us that speaking out is wrong, that having a voice is a privilege rather than a right, and that somehow they know what’s best for all of us.” Your version… Read more »
Nowhere in my post do I define feminism apart from equality. I understand you see other definitions and attach them to the term ‘feminism’, but my definition for the purposes of this post was – as a middle-aged white male – gender equality.
Sorry if it sounded combative, just trying to point out that the label itself is quite diverse in meaning, hence my problem with “feminism”. It’s the root cause for so many arguments about feminism, I’ve identified 2 major movements using the same name so it becomes quite confusing as to which one people are talking about. I’d say you’re talking about the egalitarian-feminist movement, which I am guessing advocates for both female and male rights/social issues awareness?
Yes…precisely…and I hesitate to comment further because I simply don’t care for labels – they tend (in my view) to lead to the very reactions that this post has generated. But you’re absolutely right – I’m talking about equality, which to me by definition includes both genders, not one vs. the other.
” I understand you see other definitions and attach them to the term ‘feminism’”
It’s more that feminists attach those labels.
“published a sexy cheerleaders calendar years ago that pandered to this demographic, and did it well. I gave no consideration to the fact that I was feeding the sexism machine, subjugating and objectifying women in the interest of making a buck. After all, the models I worked with were professionals who were thrilled to be on the sites or in the calendars, and my target demographic was those stereotypical white males who buy the merchandise.” – Does a sexy cheerleader calendar subjugate and objectify women? Gay men are also likely to have sexualized images of other gay men (and straight… Read more »
“‘jocular yet overtly sexist advertising that just feed into their levels of testosterone at that age.”- Testosterone has nothing to do with sexism.'” Really? As a woman, I can’t tell you how many times it has been used as an excuse. The saying “boys will be boys” has been used, in variations, to excuse rape, physical assaults, bullying, aggression, harassment, etc., over time. Not to mention philandering and straight up bad f-ing behavior. Responsibility and accountability has oft been thrown under the bus in defense of men because of testosterone. I’m not saying – by any means – that women… Read more »
Really? As a woman, I can’t tell you how many times it has been used as an excuse. The saying “boys will be boys” has been used, in variations, to excuse rape, physical assaults, bullying, aggression, harassment, etc., over time. Not to mention philandering and straight up bad f-ing behavior. Responsibility and accountability has oft been thrown under the bus in defense of men because of testosterone. Exactly it’s been used as an excuse. Or does this mean that a guy that does something bad can’t use testosterone as an excuse but someone can turn around and blame that guy’s… Read more »
“The saying “boys will be boys” has been used, in variations, to excuse rape, physical assaults, bullying, aggression, harassment, etc., over time.” I’ve never seen this. It may be done in private, but I have never seen it done in the very public way from pundits/entertainers the way I see violence against men being the butt of jokes. Look at Sharon Osbourne on The Talk calling it delightful at the news a wife sexually mutilated her husband and threw his member in the garbage disposal to a nearly all female audience laughing their head off. Rape is considered a heinous… Read more »
Just read some of the putrid and disgusting blogs and comments in response to Daniel Tosh’s recent night club offense, suggesting how funny rape is, and you will see the flip side. Women were called “cunts” and “pigs” on Twitter — a public social network used by millions — for speaking out against making light of the demoralization of sexual assault. Tosh’s continuing themes around sexual assault and how hilarious the topic is became sanctimonious amongst thousands of Internet fans bullying women into silence (they weren’t successful luckily, and many women – and some men – spoke out against it/him).… Read more »
“Men can stop violence against women, men and kids, and a conversation around male victims needs to happen to reduce the stigma and encourage reporting of the crimes.” I hope you’re also advocating that women can stop violence too? Too often I see calls for men to stop violence yet none for women, it leaves me confused as to why women aren’t included in stopping the violence since they commit quite a lot of it. The majority of sexual assault may be against women, but realize that the sexual assault of men isn’t very far behind women. Everyone suffers violence… Read more »
Curious writes: “Just read some of the putrid and disgusting blogs and comments in response to Daniel Tosh’s recent night club offense, suggesting how funny rape is, and you will see the flip side.” I reiterate my challenge: “It may be done in private, but I have never seen it done in the very public way from pundits/entertainers the way I see violence against men being the butt of jokes.” Can you point to a public entertainer/pundit who made fun of a *live* rape victim (rather than just making rape jokes in general) who got away with it scott free… Read more »
“. Men can stop violence against women, men and kids, and a conversation around male victims needs to happen to reduce the stigma and encourage reporting of the crimes. Maybe with the Sandusky conviction this will be encouraged to happen. Anything good coming out of that mess would be amazing.” No, men cannot stop anything, society can, that means men and WOMEN together can stop violence. Lets not fall for stupid stereotypes. Violence can only be dealt together as society, not splitting things up. And please, stop making such statement, they are false and offensive. Im pretty sure you have… Read more »
“women are more often the victims”
Citation needed. Statements like “men can stop violence” implies that female perpetrators don’t exist.
“Rape is considered a heinous crime, and rabidly prosecuted (duke 3). You would never see the mocking/marginalization/dismissal of an *actual* rape victim…”
Also, you should be more specific when you generalize about sexual assault — you’re speaking about views in the U.S., right?
I’m not really sure what you’re asking. All I get is a question being dressed in clothing that I failed to address something.
What are you trying to get at?
Thanks for the article, Paul. It’s a bit frustrating to see the progress that still needs to occur, and the continuing battles that I once thought would be resolved over a few years, now last into decades. I am a (mostly) hetersexual middle aged male of anglo-saxon ethnicity. I am upper middle class. I am a feminist today, and I was a feminist in college some 35 years ago. I defined feminism simply then, and I define it simply now. Calling oneself a feminist simply means that one agrees with these three statements: I believe that every person should receive… Read more »
Bravo, Tyler…and thank you.
So why is it in some feminist spaces men will get kicked out, abused, etc for speaking about male issues of inequality? Agreeing with your big 3 doesn’t make a person a feminist, only the person in question can identify as feminist. It’s actually insulting to label them as such without their consent, I myself never ever want to be called a feminist because I reject the label itself. The label has 2 major meanings which conflict when it’s actually used in the context’s I see it used by different people. Too often I’ve seen some feminists run men out… Read more »
—“So why is it in some feminist spaces men will get kicked out, abused, etc for speaking about male issues of inequality?” I’ll assume that the kicked out men were behaving respectfully and adhering to the posted and implied rules of the space in question. If that is so, then the simple answer is that the people in charge are assoles. Being a feminist simply means that you agree with the principles above, which center around gender equality. They don’t mean that you are also kind, tolerant, educated or enlightened. —“Agreeing with your big 3 doesn’t make a person a… Read more »
“Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.” – From the wiki. “I believe that every person should receive equal treatment by figures of authority. I believe that every person should have equal opportunity in economic areas. I believe that every person should have control over his/her body and being able to take rewards and responsibilities for the choices s/he makes.” “Being a feminist simply means that you agree with the principles above, which center around gender equality.” Ok, so where exactly are males represented? The wiki’s first… Read more »
—“So are men supported?”
Absolutely. EVERYONE is supported! I’m a feminist because I believe in the equality of women. I’m a masculist because I believe in the equality of men. The terms are not mutually exclusive.
—“How is an anti-feminist….a feminist?”
I like that line. It is a quandry, and I leave that for you to resolve. Resolving those kinds of inconsistencies is what building a coherent life-philosophy is all about. 🙂
But is feminism the place for male issues? Because I often hear it is and then get yelled at or see others get yelled at for bringing up male issues. It’s hypocritical at best and very confusing, I searched for a while to find feminists who will help men as they say they would but the only ones I really found were here + nswatm, many of the others seemed focused on the women only and really didn’t like men being mentioned. Feminism is confusing as to what the true meaning really is, for all the talk of “equality for… Read more »
— “But is feminism the place for male issues?” No, I don’t believe that it is. If there are male issues to discuss, a feminist talkspace is exactly NOT where I would want to discuss them. My sense is that a feminist talkspace is a place for people to come together and kvetch about issues and events that relate specifically to the condition of being female in our society. As a male, my role in such a talkspace would be to listen, to answer questions, and to generally be a good spokesman for my gender. To me, bringing up “male… Read more »
The difference I find though is there is far far more willingness by christians to denounce the bad christians which is what helps restore my belief in them as working to try make their group better. It’s something I’m not seeing in feminists much and it’s one of the reasons I believe feminists are failing to keep their name in a positive light, they just aren’t separating themselves enough from the bad ones and thus they can be often treated with suspicion as it really can look like they accept the bad feminist’s behaviour via lack of caring about it.… Read more »
I think I see why you feel unable to resolve the contradiction. It’s the difference between philosophy and advocacy. To me, the primary definition of feminism centers around philosophy, and it seems to be the the generally accepted definition. I choose to reject a definition of feminism that promotes anything other than equality and respect. I also choose to reject a definition of masculism that promotes anything other than equality and respect, for I consider myself to be a masculist as well as a feminist. I think that most feminists would agree with this statement: “Equality for women is equality… Read more »
I don’t mind when a group only focuses on one gender, but it’s when some of it’s members say the group focuses on BOTH genders whilst others hate that, so it just clashes. I haven’t seen masculists claim to be the egalitarian movement, but I have seen them say they are egalitarian in nature, but focused to male issues. So no I haven’t seen a comparable issue amongst the masculists. My big issue is being told over n over by many feminists that feminism is where male issues are to be dealt with, that it’s the egalitarian movement, then having… Read more »
I’m an anti-feminist and I agree with those 3 statements.
Sorry — I replied to Archy above before reading your line. I like that line.
How do you define being an “anti-feminist”, and still agree with those 3 statements?
If you agree with those 3 statements, then I consider you to be a feminist, regardless of what you consider yourself to be. The same could be said of many culturally loaded words.
You’re free to define feminism any way you like. I choose the definition as put forth in the first paragraph of the Wikipedia entry on feminism, and reflected by those three statements.
By many peoples definition though it isn’t “Everyone” but “women”. It’s advocating that issues where women are lagging behind get fixed without anything done for when men are lagging behind. So in those cases, it’s wrong to call it equality for all since it’s just equality for women. To truly be equality for all they would have to either help fix mens issues or make women’s life worse on that particular issue to match the men. (eg selective service to be removed, or add women to it). With that kind of definition, one could be anti-feminist but still believe in… Read more »
I can respect and appreciate your efforts but this is where you lost me: “It’s time for feminism to be mainstream. It’s time for open-minded, forward-thinking men to realize that equality means embracing feminism. Feminism isn’t a bad word. ” Why does feminism so constantly get held up as some requirement for people to embrace? Not just “it would be great if…”, “If you’re for equality you might want to….”, or “forward thinking men may want to check out….”. No what we get are attempts at making feminism synonymous with equality as if not embracing feminism inherently means you are… Read more »
“I never think of guys who believe in equality as ‘feminists.’ And maybe that’s part of the problem.” That doesn’t make you a feminist. In order to be a feminist, you need to believe that women are uniquely oppressed, and that the only problems in this world that matter are problems that affect women. As for that specific instance of assault, I have a hard time believing it happened the way she said it did. Additionally, you don’t seem to care about men who are sexually assaulted. Feminists certainly don’t. After all, they wouldn’t continually put the entire weight of… Read more »
Thanks for sharing your thoughts…
Were you expecting bowing and scraping? Should I get on my knees and beg women for forgiveness for the thousands of years of oppression that I had absolutely nothing to do with? Apologize for the benefits that they got for being men that I do not get? Do you support groups like NOW that fought to deny coverage for male health issues in the ACA and who continually and unequivocally fight against government funding going toward shelters and support networks for male victims of domestic violence and sexual assault? Don’t get me wrong, feminism has done many great things; however,… Read more »
I wasn’t expecting anything, actually. I was simply thanking you for sharing your opinions. I hope your scars heal.
I’d like to say I believe you, but you are a feminist, and you’re as guilty as the leaders of your movement who say people like my deserve what we get.
My wishes for your well-being were genuine, but it’s certainly your choice to believe otherwise. However, your comment is rather striking given your earlier comment about not bearing responsibility for others’ actions. Perhaps with time and healing you’ll stop labeling people and blaming others for your misfortune and/or the actions of those close to you. Best of luck to you in your journey.
You labeled yourself.
“In order to be a feminist, you need to believe that women are uniquely oppressed, and that the only problems in this world that matter are problems that affect women.” That is YOUR definition of feminism, not everybody’s. There is no one way to be a feminist. Just like there is not one way to be a man, or woman or person of color. To dictate otherwise is ignorant and erroneous. “Feminists and right wing republicans are two sides of the same coin of hate.” I think you’re confusing individuals with political affiliations. I’m sorry for your pain. Now, it’s… Read more »
“As a man, you do not have to live in fear of being sexually or physically assaulted by women, in the same way that women do – daily. ”
Physical assaults happen 3 times more to men than to women.
Sexual assault surveys often do not ask male victims (they outright presume it is not useful to do so). So we have little stats on this.
There are some good statistics on this. The CDC released a report (with a 124 page summary) on this: http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/
“In order to be a feminist, you need to believe that women are uniquely oppressed, and that the only problems in this world that matter are problems that affect women.” That is YOUR definition of feminism, not everybody’s. There is no one way to be a feminist. Just like there is not one way to be a man, or woman or person of color. To dictate otherwise is ignorant and erroneous. You may not be responsible for oppression that went on a thousand years ago, but by the way you speak, it sounds like you are oppressing yourself and everybody… Read more »
Thank you so much for writing this. 1100+ pieces of anti-woman legislation since the 2010 influx of the Tea Party into the GOP, with all kinds of bills wanting to let women die, face the death penalty for having an abortion, be needlessly internally probed, lied to about their health and their fetus’s, etc. etc. and escalating mind-boggling insanity…and yet not many men step forward and speak out, clearly, loudly, proudly against these politicians who would seriously let their wives, sisters, or daughters die, here in 2012 America. And the rest of what you lay out, so painfully true. And… Read more »
Thanks for reading Lori, and for speaking out…much appreciated. 🙂
Funnily enough it’s many feminists themselves who are directly causing much of the backlash. You see, if feminism was universally seen in the way Paul sees it I highly doubt there’d be much backlash at all but fact of the matter is, there are 2 main types of feminism and one of them attracts a lot of backlash. Understanding why that backlash exists is absolutely necessary and I think it’d benefit most feminists to try. You’ll find there are actually a lot of people, even anti-feminists who totally support women but it’s the feminist label itself and the gyno-centric feminism… Read more »
Very interesting…Do you realize that as a white male in the US, you have ZERO right to control your own reproduction. If your sperm is taken (by force, by coercion, by trickery etc), you have zero right to control what is done with it. This so called war on women is in alot of cases simply saying “if you want the right to control your body, then YOU pay for it, not the rest of us”. For men like yourself, you have no rights, none whatsoever. Have you ever heard of a woman who was forced by a man to… Read more »
Thank you for reading, and sharing your thoughts…
First and foremost, I have complete control over my sperm. Any responsible man does. It goes nowhere that I don’t take it.
Second, I think there are many different definitions of feminism, including the more radical view you point out. I’m not sure that’s the ‘modern. definition so much as it’s one extreme. I believe gender equality is another definition, and much more palatable (and necessary) than the one you describe.
Actually Paul, if you are raped, you have zero control over your sperm. And sadly female perpetrated rape of men is actually extremely common.
Hmm…ok…thank you for pointing that out. I had not considered (in my own naivete) that as a common occurrence, or one which I would experience, but you are absolutely right in bringing it up as an example of lack of control.
That said, barring rape or other such anomalies I do believe generally speaking that we men are in control of where we put our sperm.
We have some control of course, an ability to reduce the chance of impregnating or spreading STI’s but it isn’t perfect sadly. I do hope in the future for much better contraceptive methods which would help negate most of the problems regarding unwanted pregnancy. I think the worst lack of control is when male minors have been made to pay child support to adults as the adult got pregnant during statutory rape of that male.
I think Janet’s point was that A) many men are lied to in “oops I forgot to take my pill” ploys, and there have been cases in which women have actually retrieved sperm from used condoms to impregnate themselves (or even sperm from oral sex used to impregnate) and the courts still ruled the men must pay for the resultant child. Men have zero ability post-conception (or even post-ejaculation in instances where the man would have no real expectation of a birth ensuing, because the woman acted in a fraudulent fashion) ability to control whether or not he will become… Read more »
Typo: The 3rd paragraph from end should have said:
On the flip side, when a man does want to take part in raising a child and the mother does not (want him to be a part of the children’s lives), the powers-that-be routinely interfere with a fathers right to parent his own children.
“And sadly female perpetrated rape of men is actually extremely common.”
You’re speaking of physical assault? Stats to back this claim up?
Look at the new CDC report on interpersonal violence.
For male respondents reporting in the last 12 months, very nearly as many men reported being “forced to penetrate” as women reported completed rapes.
The upshot is that men make up 46% of rapes when we expand the definition of rape to include “forced to penetrate” (or what others on this board have called forced envelopment).
Thanks.
I’m confused. PHYSICALLY forced to penetrate? Overpowered physically by a woman?
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but extremely common how?
46% of rapes are by women — are you saying this right now? In the U.S.?
Or are you speaking of abuse by an adult woman to a boy or emotional or verbal abuse by an adult female to an adult male?
Please be more explicit. I didn’t realize men were being forced to have sex with women so much.
Adult women and adult men.
From the CDC NISVS 2010 –
“Being made to penetrate someone else includes times when the victim was made to,
or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
Gotcha. And, you’re saying that almost half of the rapes that occur in the U.S. (assuming that’s what you meant by “the upshot is that men make up 46% of rapes” — not that there is an upshot to rape, but OK) have female perpetrators against male victims? Are you serious?
From what I remember it worked out to be about 40% female rapist/perpetrator, 60% male rapist/perp for a one year period. But the tricky part is many stats don’t include “forced to penetrate” under their definition for rape so often you can say nearly all rapists are men as the most common form of female perpetrated rape is forcing a man to penetrate her. It’s annoying that they don’t just make rape defined as forcibly penetrated or forcing someone to penetrate, which is the definition I use. Basically a lot of male sexual abuse isn’t in the spotlight because of… Read more »
If you exclude the qualifier about the assailant being female when men are “forced to penetrate” then male victims do account for 46% of the victim total in this anonymous survey.
Curious writes: “Thanks. I’m confused. PHYSICALLY forced to penetrate? Overpowered physically by a woman?” Curious: think of it this way. Do you really think only men let lust overpower their brain? Not that you necessarily said this, but many feminists fight tooth and nail against the idea of innate gender differences (i.e. men make better cops/soldiers/engineers). But in order to believe that women don’t rape too, one would have to internalize *intense* perceptions of gender differences. Additionally, you (and most) people think this doesn’t pass the sniff test, because a lot of people believe that women are not sexual beings.… Read more »
Odd that people are referring to statistics without links to their sources. Oh well. Here’s the report that seems to be the source of much of what is being put forth on this thread. It’s the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey from the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/). Here’s the 124-page summary report (.pdf link): http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf. It doesn’t seem to say what others on this thread seem to think it says. Essentially, to summarize 124 pages into a couple of sentences: 1. Men and women are both at risk for sexual violence. 2. Most female victims experience sexual violence from male… Read more »
Hey Tyler. I gave the citation of what study it was. If somebody wants a link in addition all they have to do is ask.
From that study and per Archy quoting the study when men are “forced to penetrate” 79.2% of the time their assialants are women.
So, your bullet point #3 is wrong. And it should read:
#3 rape of men (when expanded to include “forced to penetrate”) is nearly equal to that of women, and 80% of the time their assailant is a woman.
Hi, John — I would like a link to that study. The only study I see referenced in that CDC study that I used as a link. Is there a different study? From the executive summary within their report — specifically referencing the perpetrators on page 3 of the .pdf file, which references the “Number and Sex of Perpetrators” — I’m afraid that I would have to stand by my third bullet point as an accurate — if incomplete — summary of their finding with regard to perpetrators of sexual violence. But, when digging deeper, I see where you’re coming… Read more »
hey Tyler,
Thanks for not getting combative and looking into the numbers with an open mind. I haven’t looked at the report in a while, but based on 1.1% of men responding about being forced to penetrate (in the last 12 months) and 1.3% of women responding a completed rape the sidenotes in the report give estimated # of victims for America.
Based on those estimated # of victims I arrived at men being the victim of rape in 46% of all cases (although only 80% of those victims reported their victimization at the hands of women).
“. Most male victims of rape and unwanted sexual experience come from male perpetrators.”
Read forced to penetrate, because this statement is extremely inaccurate.
Like saying most deaths happen by being struck by lightning or spontaneous combustion.
Most male DV victims and most male rape victims, are victims of female perpetrators (just as the reverse is true for female victims). It’s easier to approach victims and/or to be in a domestic situation (for DV) if you’re heterosexual,…because, numbers. They matter.
That’s an interesting statement. Where do you get your data that supports that statement?
I’m honestly curious as to where you’re getting your information. Perhaps I can learn something.
Table 2.1/2.2, read down from there to page 24 or so in the FULL report. The summary report is biased and hides a lot of male victimization. The report also does not count men being forced to penetrate as rape so that’s the big bias, most of us however are counting it as so because quite frankly I have no time for anyone that wouldn’t call forcing a man to penetrate someone, rape. I haven’t seen this discussed by any of the anti-rape campaigns yet which leads me to believe that they either don’t read statistics properly, or they are… Read more »
I replied above to John’s point before reading your reply to my request. It looks like I may have found the section that you’re refering to on my own, and it’s worth looking at and thinking about further. For now, as a person who’s been in a long-term relationship for over 20 year, I’m certainly willing to acknowledge that relationship strains go both ways, and that in-relationship violence can cut against both men and women within that relationship. And it’s a fairly recent societal change that even acknowledges that rape can occur within an established relationship, so it’s not surprising… Read more »
I’m glad you teach that both are harmed and also both can be perpetrators. Some possible reasons a woman can overpower a man: There is a commenter on the GMP who said he was told she would say he raped her if he didn’t have sex with her, so that would be coersion which probably isn’t listed under forced to penetrate. Being threatened with violence can overpower a man, even by a woman. As we can see with domestic abuse women are no strangers to committing violence and with social expectations such as telling men to never hit women this… Read more »
Well, Archy — I didn’t think we’d come to agreement so easily on the Internet! I can’t say that there’s anything in your post that I disagree with whatsoever. When nonphysical methods of coercion (alcohol, threats, deception) are introduced, women and men are equals in their ability to act in a sexually abusive manner. Of that I have no doubt. I suspect that abuse of a sexual nature is probably perpetrated against women more than against men (I think the stats may back me up on this — check me if I’m wrong), but the ability to physically and emotionally… Read more »
Yeah that sounds about right. Both are most likely equal in ability to perpetrate sexual violence but it affects women more (but it may not be much higher which is a key part to remember). More study needs to be done and hopefully the bias in rape definition removed, the lack of inclusion of “forced to penetrate” really fucks up the statistics that are reported in the newspapers and it’s the number 1 problem I find when people hear about the stats, they rarely if ever hear about the “forced to penetrate” stats.
“First and foremost, I have complete control over my sperm. Any responsible man does. It goes nowhere that I don’t take it.”
Ok, but even ignoring rape, men only have complete control over their reproduction if you advocate abstainance only. If you have sex with someone you take the risk of becoming a parent with no say in the matter, that’s not quite right.
Actually, there’s vasectomy too. And while condoms are not 100% effective, neither is any other birth control method, and when used properly, they’re pretty close. So the lesson would be to choose your sexual partners carefully, and weigh risks and rewards of any chosen behavior. We are responsible for the actions of our sperm so we should treat their distribution with appropriate caution.
Oh, and there’s also this option too: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/03/male-birth-control-reversible_n_1400708.html
And of course financial abortion as a last resort…..oh wait:P Would be good to have that though, it’d definitely make me feel calmer in having sex being a person who couldn’t afford kids and I already use protection and don’t think I can actually get a vasectomy at this stage of life from doctors. We have a responsibility of course but women also have a responsibility to respect our wishes of becoming fathers, but since we cannot and should not ever be able to force them to abort, I fully support financial abortion options for those who don’t wish to… Read more »
Archy, Having the option to “abort” becoming a father is something men sorely need, particularly young men in poorer communities. Birth control is frequently not taught and so not used correctly. Rates of unplanned and teen pregnancy are high in such instances; it’d be a life-saver for many men to know they have AT LEAST as many option as women do with regards to whether or not they want to become a father. Sadly (and I said this on a different thread re: Shawn Taylor’s piece) too many people would prefer to attack men for their mistakes and choices rather… Read more »
“The stereotypical male is a sexist pig” Certainly I don´t follow the GMP to read this classic view on men, that by the way it´s not true. It´s this kind of labeling that feminist promotes that makes me unlike them. Believe me Feminist have made themselves heard. So loud, that any politician must make an statement about protecting women to be in the right track. But let me tell you something. There are a lot of situations where men have been discriminated. And there are a lot of laws that are against men. The world doesn´t need more feminist. Women… Read more »
Thanks for reading, and for your comment…I did say in the same piece that “I don’t think I’m in the minority. I don’t believe that the majority of white males in America believe women are second-class citizens, playthings kept around to keep men happy but not to have minds or wills of their own.” I was simply making a point that that stereotype is out there, not that I agree with it.