Hey ladies, before you raise a lament about “where have all the good men gone,” maybe you should make sure you aren’t just overlooking them.
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When this video made the rounds on Facebook, I posted it to The Good Men Project’s private Facebook group for writers. I wasn’t thinking about turning it into an article, but as often happens in our writer’s group, the article was written in the discussion thread under the post.
I know that, even though we don’t pretend to have a corner on the criteria for “good men,” our writers set the bar pretty high.
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When I shared it, I captioned it simply, “Because sometimes we just don’t notice the good guys.”
I know that, even though we don’t pretend to have a corner on the criteria for “good men,” our writers set the bar pretty high. But I was surprised when several of them deemed the guy’s behavior as not only immature (well, it is that!) but also as disqualifying him for any “nice guy of the day” awards.
Jordan Gray, our Sex and Relationships Editor, feels that people should do nice things for the internal validation rather than the hope of reward. His immediate response was,
Because sometimes the good guys are acting in a way that they are hoping will be rewarded or recognized, as opposed to acting from a place of actually wanting to help others.
He ended the comment with a smiley face. But he elaborated a bit later in a more serious vein.
Our intentions matter. If you give your wife flowers and then get mad at her for not promptly having sex with you, then you’re the one who needs to work on that. Similarly, if one holds the door open for any reason other than “I want to make someone else’s day a tiny bit better,” then I think that person needs to check in with whether they were doing it for external or internal validation. Be kind and loving for how it makes you feel, not for what you get out of it.
Alexander Yarde, who edits the “All Things Geek” Section, put it even more bluntly.
He stopped being a good guy when he shouted and cursed them. Courtesy is it’s own reward or it’s not being courteous. That was a serious overreaction …. he was polite holding the door instead of barging in first. Then because he wasn’t thanked he screams and runs off? He’s supposed to get a medal for holding a door? Two wrongs don’t make a right. To me his behavior is the shade of the guy that says something nice to a random stranger on the street then doesn’t get the reaction he wants insults the same woman. No bueno.
They swept through that door as through it were one of those pressure-sensitive types that open when you step on the sensor.
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I get that. Authentic “niceness” isn’t about making choices based on ROI. If you didn’t do it because it’s the right thing to do, then were you really being nice, or just being shrewd?
Neither would I argue that his reaction was a tad over the top. OK, more than a tad.
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But here’s what I noticed. These ladies not only did not thank the gentleman. They didn’t even NOTICE him. They swept through that door as through it were one of those pressure-sensitive types that open when you step on the sensor.
Orin Hahn, a relationship expert who edits “The Good Life” Section, had a little more compassion.
While tapping into your intrinsic desires and giving genuinely without the need for external validation is a worthy act to develop for self growth, there is nothing wrong in also wanting to be acknowledged. Every part has its play in the whole.
He agreed with Jordan about being guided by intentions rather than rewards, but added,
I think that’s 90% of relationship issues—the constant “But I did that x so you’d do y.” It cheapens life and relationships into transactions. That being said, watching the vid the girls are behaving in an entitled way, they don’t owe the guy a thank you, but at least give him a nod of acknowledgement.
Finally Thomas Fiffer shared his thoughts. Tom is one of our Executive Editors, and the Ethics and Values editor. Tom says,
My take is that the young man is trying to be a good guy and gets frustrated when the girls ignore him and don’t say thank you. Holding the door for women—or anyone—must have been modeled to him, and that’s a good thing, in my opinion. It’s what a gentleman or courteous person does. Thanking someone for a kind gesture is also what a courteous person does, so the girls were discourteous in not saying thank you or even acknowledging him. He’s not a doorman. He’s a person who made an effort to do something nice. And while he clearly overreacted, I understand his feeling of, “you know, why bother to be courteous if people don’t say thank you.”
I think his anger also taps into the anger a man feels when a woman he’s dating expects him to pay for everything, acts as if it’s her entitlement because of gender, and doesn’t thank him.
Don’t like ads? Become a supporter and enjoy The Good Men Project ad freeI don’t buy the argument that it’s not a good deed because he expected to be thanked for it. The definition of goodness is not selflessness or altruism. The problem is that he was discourteous to the girls. I think it would have been perfectly appropriate for him to have said to them, “You know, it’s courteous to thank someone when they do something nice for you.” That’s what he felt, but it’s not what he said or how he said it.
And that’s when a bell went off for me. That this had nothing to do with whether or not this is a “good guy.” It has nothing to do with whether or not you’re still a good person if you expect to be thanked, or at least acknowledged, for a kind deed.
It’s because no one, not the person holding the door, not the person handing you your receipt, not the person smiling at you while you peruse the menu at the coffee shop, no one wants to be invisible.
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Nope. It’s about feelings. It’s about how every one of us wants to be seen. And how every one of us feels when we’re ignored or taken for granted.
We’ve all felt the way that young man felt. We might not have acted it out in quite that fashion, but we know how it feels.
It’s not because sometimes we just don’t notice the good guys.
It’s because no one, not the person holding the door, not the person handing you your receipt, not the person smiling at you while you peruse the menu at the coffee shop, no one wants to be invisible.
Photo—Antoine Dodson/Facebook
While the guy’s reaction was over the top (but I’ve felt like doing the same thing myself, more times than I could count), the girls were so self-absorbed, and had so little awareness and respect for others around them, that they are simply rude.
Sadly, because of their lack of awareness and self absorption, they’ll probably do the same thing tomorrow without even beginning to appreciate, or even give a thought to, why they might have generated the response they did.
T.A. Henderson makes a really good point, asking whether the young man would have blown up had the others been anything but young women. This week I witnessed for the first time (in person) two young men attempting to engage a group of young women on the street, after dark, and their hostile reaction when the women chose to ignore them. All they did was confirm that they were not the kind of men that women could interact with safely after dark. I wish the women in the video would have said thank you, but they were walking out into… Read more »
There is a quote by Robert Heinlen that goes something along the lines of. “Manners are the grease that oils societies cogs” Manners are double edged, courtesy will open the door with out expectation and politeness will thank the person without expectation. Neither is done in expectation of anything further but it makes for people getting along.
goodness is measured by the things you do for people who can give you nothing in return. Not only have I opened doors for people who didn’t acknowledge it but I’ve had men REFUSE to walk through a door that I am holding open for them because I doing it while female – and yet have never blown up on someone. I chose to hold the door open. that was my choice and I have no right to expect anything back from anyone. That’s what makes a show of appreciation so much worthwhile; you weren’t expecting it. You didn’t feel… Read more »
Entitlement is at an all time high. I say thank you a lot, and these ladies should have too. However, it is also true that a young man in this situation may simply be looking for an opportunity to meet them, which isn’t necessarily an indicator of what kind of person he is one way or another and pretty young girls often develop filters in public simply because they are bombarded by male attention of both good and unpleasant kinds. I’m a lot more impressed at someone opening a door for someone who is elderly or otherwise not on their… Read more »
I have been perplexed as to how so many people I know seem to twist logic to justify what this young man did- scream violently at two young women. As if they had it coming, yeah that’ll teach all those “entitled girls.” Who is the one acting act? Try this: imagine that the two people walking through that door are your grandparents, engaged in conversation? Or your wife/sister involved in a serious conversation with a teenage child? Or two business men in suit and tie having a discussion? Even better, place yourself as the one walking through that door involved… Read more »
So what with all the examples you bring up. Had the boy not been there to open the door for them, would they have been too busy to open it themselves? Whatever you’re engaged in, diverting your attention for a split second “thank you” is a lot less effort than opening a door. Try that for a thought experiment.
I have found that in those situations a sincere “you’re welcome”, in the same tone I would offer had they thanked me, works well to remind them of their faux pas. again, more often than not, generating a mea culpa.
“Expectations are premeditate resentments.” – Unknown friend
Well I kind of laughed with this video. No offence. I think it just shows, pointedly, a lot of wrongs in our gender roles … Of course we can discuss what is right and wrong, but how many words can we waste on holding a door for someone? The fact it’s a big deal shows there’s an issue in our society that puts more weight on symbolic acts than is rational.
It’s just a door.
People treat others as invisible out of fear. As we’ve been told many times women in general live with a lot of fear. We’ve also been told that it’s largely justified. That being the case they have reasons to behave this way. Thus I have developed my policy of treating women as invisible in public. This had to be done out of the fear of creating fear.
While the conversation this sparks is worthwhile, there’s nothing here to indicate this was a good guy. The fact that someone was there filming it shows clearly what his intent was– there was nothing good about it at all. Snakes can wear masks. It’s part of the reason that anyone can even wonder where the good men have gone. They’re invisible in part because bad men wear good man masks. It’s not worth defending them, it’s only worth understanding them.
The “good men” have wised up and realized here is more to life than being a good husband and provider. They are not angry or bitter, just tired of trying to meet someone else’s expectations of what they should be. Expecting things from other people, man or woman is a major mistake. He didn’t have to open the door for them, just as they didn’t have to thank him.