Josh Kleinberg rejects the idea that feminism and men’s rights are incompatible aims. In our fight for equality, he argues, we’ve got to weed out the reactionary behavior.
I’ve spent a fair amount of time in both feminist and men’s rights communities, and each camp (like all political factions) has a small but loud minority of agitators. But just as the SCUM Manifesto does not define the feminist movement, the men’s rights movement should not be conflated with slur-hurling macho men (no matter if they claim to speak under the men’s rights banner).
I had a couple of problems with Hugo Schwyzer’s March 8 column, “How Men’s Rights Activists Get Feminism Wrong.” As someone who tends to straddle the two camps, I was a little dismayed to see yet another self-identified feminist dismissing men’s rights advocates outright. I take issue especially with the article’s gradual conflation of the “older, angrier” men’s rights advocates with the movement as a whole.
More importantly, is it fair to dismiss the movement as merely a symptom of angst about traditional gender roles? Schwyzer argues that men are not responding to social structures like “a biased family court system, or feminist college professors, or the perceived injustices of Title IX athletic funding.”
I say that’s exactly what they are doing—or the good ones, at least.
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It’s true that some MRAs unfairly attack women for the structures they rail against, but it’s unmerited to extrapolate this (ultimately irrelevant) fallacy as representative of the movement, especially without actually responding to any of the claims.
Take a look at the Men’s Rights subreddit at Reddit.com (perhaps the largest and best known community of men’s rights activists). Some complaints are fair; some aren’t. But the defining thread is that these complaints stem from discussions of policy—both social and legal. The most prevalent discussion in men’s rights circles is not even about men’s relationships with women, but their allowed interactions with children. MRAs’ most trumpeted claim is that in an overzealous concern for children’s safety, men are often unfairly and preemptively categorized as predators.
Gender politics is not a subscription service. You don’t just pick a team to root for and then disregard arguments from every other angle. If our interest is equality, we must also examine issues where the paradigm is counterintuitive or unclear.
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One member of Reddit’s men’s rights group told a story of taking his daughter to the park and having the police called on him as a possible child molester. Another man described being totally dumbstruck when a friend pulled him aside to express concerns about the frequency and comfort with which he touched his son while playing in the yard. Regardless of identity politics, this is a question that can’t go unaddressed by any man with a child in his life.
Men’s rights and feminism are not incompatible aims. I’ve seen wrestling programs defunded as a result of Title IX, have heard feminist professors attack anthropologists not for unsound research but for the “dangerous implications” of their findings, and I’ve seen bad decisions in family court make a good father weep. And none of this made me any less thankful for Lily Ledbetter, or less outraged by the proposal to defund Planned Parenthood.
Gender politics is not a subscription service. You don’t just pick a team to root for and then disregard arguments from every other angle. If our interest is equality, we must also examine issues where the paradigm is counterintuitive or unclear.
And no, I don’t believe we have the option of focusing our attention on the “more oppressed” group for the time being. The programmed mode of thought that says a man is less fit than a woman to touch his child is the same mode of thought that necessitates a cozy place for women in the sphere of domesticity. When we weed out the static—the reactionary yelling and finger-pointing from both sides—we see that men’s rights and feminism, far from being opposed, are means to the same end.
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Meet the Men’s Rights Movement
Hugo Schwyzer: How Men’s Rights Activists Get Feminism Wrong
Paul Elam: On Misandry: What’s Wrong With Men?
Tom Matlack: Adultery’s Double Standard
Amanda Marcotte: The Solution to MRA Problems? More Feminism
Zeta Male: The Top 10 Issues of Men’s Rights
Pelle Billing: Unlocking the Men’s Rights Movement
David Futrelle: Dismantling the Men’s Rights Movement
Dan Moore of Menz: The MRA Perspective
Ron Mattocks: When Men Are the Victims of Abuse
Tom Matlack: Do Divorced Dads Get a Raw Deal?
Blixa Scott: Why Do We Forgive Adulterous Women?
Joseph Caputo: Can We Degenderize Domestic Violence?
—Photo lewisha1990/Flickr
Perhaps its time for there to be no feminists or MRAs, but a united force of gender equalists, a group that wouldn’t waste its time pointing the finger at other groups and discrediting them, but would instead just look at what prejudices exist in our culture and work to eradicate them, look at what changes can be made to help everyone, instead of picking sides. Let’s work to get rid of rape, AND false accusations, let’s work to get rid of prejudices in the media about ALL genders, let’s look at how we can get the law to protect children… Read more »
By the way, if anyone is loath to join either movement because of the extremists on both sides, but wants to see all of the injustices I’ve addressed brought to the table, and discuss real, actionable solutions for them, I propose starting a new movement: The Humanist Movement. Or, The Human Being Movement. Or Rights for Humans. Or whatever we want to call it.
Instead of a Marxist, you are a Maxist 😉
And tho I was being jokey there, I’d actually love to talk to you about your positions, Max. Feel free to email me off my website contact info. That’s all very reasonable 😉
I wish I could say that feminism and men’s rights are compatible, but that would require the members of both groups to become reasonable people, capable of negotiating and examining society as a series of facts rather than histrionic emotions. Both sides do it, then point the finger at the other side, claiming that it’s all their fault. While my personal social movement is entitled “Misanthropy” – it results in me never being disappointed by human irrationality and stupidity, as the title assumes irrationality and stupidity as “de facto” for humans – I believe in the following tenets of whatever… Read more »
I think that’s a very supportable platform. I dig it. A lot.
+1
I love you, you seem to actually get it! (no creepy)
Wish more people could understand this. I am wondering though if men are allowed to push to fight misandry, most cases I see of men speaking up on it feminists come down hard on it. Seeing as feminism has had much more time to develop and probably far more followers, could this simply bully the MRA’s out of existence at times?
AT LAST!!!!!! a voice of true reason- a balanced consideration of many facets of our social/legal framework!
Please continue to advance your platform!
Please point me to where I can find MRA haven’s that can deal with the actual issues and are not just the “lunatic fringe”. I mean this with no cynicism or sarcasm. I want to know so I can go there. I went out looking for MRA information because I had observed for myself some of the issues they care about and wanted to know how I could help. What I was confronted with in the first couple of google results was so much vitriol and hate I was quite literally nauseous. I understand every movement has its radical, angry… Read more »
It seems ironic to me that you mentioned how Feminism and MRM aren’t compatible because “Feminism” is intolerant to compromise. If you were honest, you’d see how biased your own statement is in it’s lack of “compromise”. As for the study, women certainly have more stress factors today, but ask how many women are interested in going back in time where they had less rights and equality, and I think you would find not many. Women still have duel preasure of job and family, where they still take on most of the child caring responsibilties. Men have made great strides… Read more »
Women don’t work any more than men, including at home work/childcare. Men work longer hours than women, commute further, travel more, are SAH parents far less often, and work more dangerous and physically demanding jobs.
The good news is that women are free to work as much and as long as men do, but more often exercise their freedom not to.
I do believe this could be true (although have not looked it up), however this is likely to be average data for a certain area/class- i.e may not reflect the realities of very poor/ black/hispanic women.
Either way to make this statement accurate it is necessary to state “on average women don’t work anymore” – Otherwise you suggesting that ALL men work longer/more dangerous jobs than ALL women.
Feminism is a childish, self-serving philosophy that’s seduced emasculated men who have failed to get their balls back. It’s time to start telling the TRUTH about feminism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plkeKMTDM9g
Why I am not an MRA and why their tactics sicken me, and obscure their good points:
Men’s rights movements reflect the tactics of domestic abusers themselves, minimizing existing violence, calling it mutual, and discrediting victims. MRA groups downplay national abuse rates, just as abusers downplay their personal battery; they wage campaigns dismissing most allegations as false, as abusers claim partners are lying about being hit; and they depict the violence as mutual—part of an epidemic of wife-on-husband abuse—as individual batterers rationalize their behavior by saying that the violence was reciprocal.
Rubbish David, thats a description of what feminists do, Mra’s just quote the reliable research, dont believe men? there is a link a site called Breaking the Science in the original article.
me not men.
Here’s a link you’ll find interesting:
http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/extended-discussion/abusive-fathers-win-custody-battles-more-often-than-mothers/t.70265549/ (This link includes a plethora of other links within the post.)
Apparently, father’s rights movements lie just as much as MRAs claim feminists lie. In fact, abusive fathers retain custody of their children in 70% of cases. The lesson I’m taking away from all of this is that neither MRA members nor feminists are to be trusted anymore.
Amber, did you actually follow any of the links? None of the links present any evidence demonstrating that abusive fathers get custody of the children in 70% of custody cases. The links are about abusive men and make a host of assumptions without providing any support for them.
Amber- This number (70%) did not seem right to me, so I did a little digging, and it appears to be the product of a lot of distortion. The article from the first paragraph (both links lead to the same text on different sites) cites the American Judges Association for this figure (link here), who cites no source. Interestingly, I found this later article from the AJA’s journal “Court Review” which includes the figure, citing an article by Jane Aiken and Jane Murphy. Found a copy of that article in jstor, and their citation is…the first link, from the AJA.… Read more »
In paragraph 3, I meant “gaia,” not “gay.” I typed the comment out in textedit and spellcheck autocorrected, apparently.
Excellent analysis. It should have been Amber’s job, but apparently she just likes to quote random stats.
And thanks for the link to Rosenthal, btw!
I feel cautionary about this article. On the one hand it does speak to healing the divide that gender warfare has created between men and women, yet I cannot deny that none of the men I see victimized every day by gendered feminists politics were ever combatants in a battle they knew hardly anything about. And then they became casualties — the divorced husband and father who never see his son but is used like a credit-card, the abused boyfriend who can’t talk about what’s it like being emasculated, and even the tough ex-marine who suffers severe PTSD and yet… Read more »
I wished this wasn’t so full of hyperbole. I might’ve taken it seriously. As is, it’s quite good for a laugh.
That’s kinda sad, because all of it is true. Do you laugh at women being raped in the Congo? Or human sex trafficking on Craigslist? Do you also laugh at instances of domestic violence when they’re parodied? Like Tiger Woods on SNL? Do you laugh at victims? Or just some victims?
I ask, because I think your answers will show you to be either callous or hypocritical.
Human sex trafficking on Craigslist? As a person who deals with prostitutes pretty much every day, Zek, I laugh at people who think that commercial sex work is ipso facto slavery, I surely do. I laugh to keep from crying.
So are you talking about a real, bona fide trafficking case on Craigslist? Bona fide in the sense of “trafficking” as the Palermo Protocol defines it? If so, source please.
Actually, it was an example, and not really central to my point… but okay!
ABC — http://abcnews.go.com/WN/popular-website-craigslist-outlet-sex-trafficking-child-exploitation/story?id=11367581
Change.org — http://news.change.org/stories/craigslist-makes-36-million-from-illegal-sex-ads
CBS — http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_162-20012671-501465.html
The Hill — http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/118995-craigslist-breaks-its-silence-on-sex-trafficking-noting-white-house-meeting
NPR — http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129863089
CNN — http://articles.cnn.com/2010-08-03/justice/craigslist.sex.ads_1_adult-ads-services-ads-craigslist?_s=PM:CRIME
I mean, the list goes on, and on, and on, and on and on AND ON.
But that has nothing to do with my point that while I understand Joshua’s position in the article, I am still skeptical about dealing with Feminists.
Instead of obsessing over unrelated information, try talking about the topic I’m actually dealing with in my post?
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Actually, it was an example, and not really central to my point… but okay!
Here’s my favorite link: http://articles.cnn.com/2010-08-03/justice/craigslist.sex.ads_1_adult-ads-services-ads-craigslist?_s=PM:CRIME
Also there’s info on ABC, Change.org, CBS, The Hill, NPR, ABC, I mean, the list goes on, and on, and on, and on and on AND ON.
But that has nothing to do with my point that while I understand Joshua’s position in the article, I am still skeptical about dealing with Feminists.
Instead of getting your undies in a bunch over unrelated information, try talking about the topic I’m actually dealing with in my post?
Actually, it was an example, and not really central to my point… but okay! Check CNN Justice: “Sold on Craigslist: Critics say sex ad crackdown inadequate” Also there’s info on ABC, Change.org, CBS, The Hill, NPR, ABC, I mean, the list goes on, and on, and on, and on and on AND ON. Just search “craigslist, trafficking”, because GMPM won’t publish my comments with a lot of links. But that has nothing to do with my point that while I understand Joshua’s position in the article, I am still skeptical about dealing with Feminists. Instead of getting your undies in… Read more »
Zek, that CNN story you link us to is a bunch of anonymous people making accusations. I’d like to see one bonafide case of someone being sold on Craigslist, please. I mean it’s an epidemic, right? So surely there should be hundreds or thousands of proven-in-a-court-of-law cases like this, right? So link us to just one. I have done as you suggested and searched “Craigs List Trafficking” and all I’ve come up with is a lot of stories making accusations, generally anonymous accusations. I’m not the self-proclaimed expert on Craigslist’s supposed trafficking problem: you are. It is thus not logically… Read more »
Zek, I have to admit, that the above comment is derailing. I just get so SICK of people using “trafficking” for every sexual crime under the sun these days. I can’t see how calling that case – if it did indeed occur – “trafficking” allows us to understand it or repress it any better than calling it “statutory rape”, “sex with a minor”, “sexual exploitation of a minor” or any number of actionable laws. Does calling it “trafficking” somehow allow us to prosecute the crime better? The Palermo Protocol was developed to go after situations analogous to slavery and sure,… Read more »
Umm, Thaddeus, you interestingly based quite a lot of assumptions about me from a random example I used regarding a completely different point. And while I can honestly say I, and most of the rest of the world would disagree with you… that’s not what’s got me shaking me head. You wrote: “Let’s be real frank, Zek: your problem with Craigslist has nothing to do with the very small number of children that are being sexually exploited by its users: it has to do with the very LARGE numbers of adult prostitutes which use its services as an ALTERNATIVE to… Read more »
P.S. I just realized you’re the same Thad that got kicked off of Abagond’s blog! Holy mother of Moses that’s a random coincidence, haha.
Next time we should talk shop instead of trafficking. My focus is folklore, but I’m fairly conversant in most current anthropology.
You’re right: I DO over-react on the trafficking issue and it’s because I have seen far too many people presume that prostitution is trafficking.
Craigslist recently had to kick all their adult services providers off because of the trafficking panic and it has made the world a much dangerous place for many sex workers I know.
So I am understandably a bit titchy when it comes to people associating Craigslist with trafficking.
Wow Adam. That’s strange.
Because I know one man who was subject to a false restraining order; two more who were subject to false accusations of child abuse. And I’m blisteringly aware of what I’m capable of doing to my husband, legally, should I so choose.
So Zek’s life looks less like hyperbole to me then an accurate picture of reality.
Thanks =)
Yes, there is a lot of hyperbole and misinformation in Zek’s comment. Perhaps because he doesn’t fully understand the examples he has brought up, he is really oversimplifying things. It would take at least a good hour to sit here and provide rebuttals to everything his commentary, but just one instance of his misrepresentation/misinformation: “I see Julian Assange arrested and extradited on spurious charges that wouldn’t hold up a coffee-table, merely for the crime of having casual sex with a Feminist.” Like, I question whether Zek knows that these “spurious charges” don’t have equivalents in the US legal system and,… Read more »
Like, I question whether Zek knows that these “spurious charges” don’t have equivalents in the US legal system Actually, I do know they don’t. Sweden has far different sex laws than here, including a different burden of proof, and very little in the way of innocent till proven guilty. But that said, people from Naomi Wolf to Michael Moore believe there is a lot of questionable, and convenient, legalese going on, including how/why the charges were filed and what happened prior to that. So while you or I may be no experts, I feel comfortable having an opinion that you… Read more »
It’s a warming article with appropriate optimism. Unfortunately I sold my optimism long ago. I was at one time very moderate and respectful of the determinations of feminism. I have since learned that feminism has no less than 27 different factions, each claiming not to be like the other. It is a reasonable question to address when proposing the distinctions of the mens movement may be compatible with feminism. Yet I have never met a feminist who does not reserve the right to subscribe to any of the 27 different factions. As an undefinable political expression, I have simply concluded… Read more »
That is a very important point you make about the various factions of feminism. I used to consider myself to be a feminist when I was quite young. What struck me as I got more involved was the way the term ‘feminism’ is used in so many varying and often quite conflicting ways- it’s almost like a banner that can mean anything- so much so that it actually means nothing. I do however whole heartedly, and quite actively subscribe to fight for equality. I’m not quite what you mean when you say you have never met a feminist who does… Read more »
Keith you nailed it. Feminsm to a gender feminist means something completely different than to an equality feminist. I also think that there has been a considerable shift from equal in opportunity to equal in outcome. That is a significant change from “equality”. To get to equality of outcome rather than opportunity makes the movement something altogether different as it removes merit from the solution. That is something I could never stand behind.
Finally women are waking up to the hypocrisy of feminism: http://vimeo.com/19843219
Go to the Sources. To understand the MRM, go decide for yourself, visit The Spearhead, A Voice for Men, and Angry Harry.
i did, and i was dismayed and disgusted by what I found there. I have better things to do than woman-hating that is displayed there.
I love the women in my life. My mother, my girlfriend, my sisters. I don’t buy into this vast conspiracy Kool Aid the MRAs are drinking from and this NiceGuyTM hatred of women.
A very good article! Let’s not forget the nasty ways other axes of identity and differntiation combine with masculinity to screw certain men. Here in Brazil, for example, an Italian tourist was recently arrested and dragged through the mud as a pedophile after an anonymous denunciation turned him in. His crime? Playing with his 8 year-old daughter by the swimming pool. apparently he, hw gave his kid’s butt a playful swat and at one point adjusted her bikini top for her. This guy is STILL under accusation, even though after close to a month’s imprisonment, he was allowed to go… Read more »
So you’re saying society is like Gideon-Lite?
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I’m saying that there are moments things in our society remind me of the dystopia Atwood saw in our future.
Its interesting you mention Atwood. In her novel, America is overtaken by a heavily patriarchal version of fundamentalist Christianity (not feminism)…
In fact, the lesson that comes from it for me is that the two are linked… The oppressive patriarchy and the Handmaids only outlet during the ‘Salvaging’ scene to rip apart the poor political prisoner. In fact, the main character knows from a friend he was not a rapist… but if the women didn’t not respond like they did, they all knew they would be killed or sent off to be ‘unwomen’ in radioactive colonies.