This post first appeared on Damon Young’s blog Very Smart Brothers, where it prompted 593 comments, one of which became the title of this post.
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If you happened to eavesdrop on a random group of black people having a free-flowing conversation — and this conversation could take place anywhere; a family reunion, a happy hour, a game night, a cafeteria table, wherever — there’s a good chance that the discussion will eventually shift to our feelings about black people doing dumb shit in public.
The topic might be something someone saw on the evening news. If at a restaurant, it might revolve around a woman near the entrance who’s dressed and acting a “hot ass mess.” It might just be our hilarious thoughts about the latest episode of Basketball Wives.
While these discussions might seem innocuous and unnecessary, the need to frequently engage in conversations about cringe-worthy shit committed by people of color comes from a latent feeling that’s never actually spoken aloud but understood by each.
We’d rather not air our “dirty laundry” around white people, and we’re slightly amazed, shocked, and embarrassed by those who do.
This feeling, passed down to us by our parents, grandparents, aunts, and uncles, has wide-reaching effects, as it influences the way we act, causes many of us to “code switch,” and creates a certain level of collective racial hyper self-consciousness that (I’m assuming) white people never have to adopt.
I realize that many of them (white people) don’t really “get” this way of thinking, not understanding why we’d be so reluctant to be candid and let our hair down around them. I mean, I’m pretty sure “White America” doesn’t shake its collective head in disappointment and shame whenever Lindsey Lohan feels the need to show a homeless man her vagina (again). But, a recent experience I’ve had should help them understand why many of us feel the way we
A couple weeks ago, Lisa Hickey — publisher and CEO of Good Men Media — asked if I’d be interested writing something for an upcoming discussion of race at The Good Men Project. Now, this wasn’t an out of the blue request. I’ve written for The Good Men Project before, and Lisa and I exchange emails regularly and have a pretty good working relationship.
But while I was definitely interested in contributing, I had a major mental reservation: I’d never written about race for a (predominately) white audience before.
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Yes, I’m aware that VSB (VerySmartBrothas.com) has a large and multi-racial readership base. But, the majority of the people who frequent here belong to the same demographic (21 to 35 year old African-American), and that knowledge does influence word choice and tone. I might be a bit more conscious of some of the things I so freely discuss here if I knew I was speaking to a different audience.
Anyway, I got past the reservation and ended up writing a 1000 word piece about a “racial neurosis” that many of us carry, and how it affects the way we react to things.
“The overt and soul-crippling racism that plagued our parents and grandparents isn’t nearly as prominent today. Anyone who’d argue otherwise is a fool. But, this history has resulted in a collective neurosis whose symptoms are similar to how dealing with a crazy girlfriend or boyfriend for too long starts to make you crazy as well. You start hacking into their email account just to make sure they haven’t hacked into yours again. They accuse you of lying so much that you start to wonder “Wait, am I sure that happened? Did I really go to work today, or did I spend the entire day with my mistress?”
From a race perspective, a manifestation of this mindset is you wondering if all things that happen to you are somehow related to you being black; a too heightened racial awareness that makes it increasingly difficult to discern between legitimate racism and race-based discrimination — both of which definitely still exist — and mere happenstance.”
I ended this essay with a paragraph or two about what often happens when we eat at restaurants. As many of you know, we have a stereotype of being bad tippers. This reputation may or may not be deserved, but I theorized that we might be bad tippers because we have a history of getting bad service, so we anticipate it now. I called this phenomenon “Eating While Black,” and Lisa liked that term so much that she thought I should just make it the title of the article. I agreed.
“Eating While Black” was eventually published last Monday, and it was pretty well-received; ending the week as the 3rd most popular article at The Good Men Project that week. The comments it generated didn’t really touch on the racial neurosis aspect, though, as most were focused on why Eating While Black occurs.
One commentator in particular — a guy who went by G.L. Piggy — shared a few of his thoughts as a white waiter who’s had many experiences with black customers.
“I’ve been a waiter for 7 years at a second-tier Italian restaurant. In my experience, black do tip worse. Yes, white servers cringe when they see black people being seated at their tables. But the same is true of black servers as well. This has much less to do with the amount of the tip one is expected to receive though.
These are all generalities – not all black people are like this. But racial differences in restaurant behavior are noticable. Black people tend to be more needy, pickier, and quick to anger. They take much longer to order their food. We call it “being ran”. Many servers get the feeling that black patrons are asking for extra things – napkins, ranch dressing, extra sauce – just to put us to work. They seem much less understanding about your time constraints and your need to take care of your other patrons. There seems to be, among blacks more than other races, a mentality of “I want it now”. And while the “get shit for free” mentality transcends race, blacks tend to hold it more than other races of people”
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Although I found the statement about black people and “getting shit for free” a little troubling, I appreciated his candor and willingness to share his opinions. We went back and forth a few times after that, cordially debating the root causes of Eating While Black, and the discussion eventually died down towards the end of the week.
This Monday, however, I received an email notification that “Eating While Black” had received another trackback. I clicked on it, and it took me to “Not Tipping While Black” — a 600 word long response G.L. Piggy’s had just posted on his blog.
I read it, expecting to see a continuation of the discussion we had the week before. Instead, I noticed a shift in tone and direction, as it subtly started to become a critique of “black culture” in general.
“But it is ridiculous to grant poor tippers some sort of deep philosophical justification for their cheapness and/or hostility towards (white) social norms of any sort. The fact is that tipping is an American norm which means that black patrons who willingly flout it are free-riding on the rest of society.”
Curious where this discussion was headed, I decided to stick around and read the comments.
Damn.
From G.L. Piggy:
“But whenever they find hairs or plastic (at an amazingly high rate) or if their food isn’t prepared to their liking, you pretty much have to drop everything to cater to them. It’s really like waiting on infants”
From “a.nonny.mous”
“…black patrons of restaurants aren’t oriented to the bill for their food, literally because their minds have trouble conceiving it. So they get it and are astounded because they never thought “how will this steak and wine affect my future bank account” in a way a non-black would.”
From “EzE”
“Really, is it necessary to plumb the depths of evolutionary psychology to figure out why blacks are lousy tippers, rude customers? Do you really think that some alleged inability to consider future consequences comes into play?
Blacks are jerks, that’s all. There’s no need to science it all up. Also the infantile mind theory is no good, they’re not infants, they are of below average intelligence often but above retardation. No, there’s no big mystery here, they’re just jerks is all.”
The reluctance to freely share, to have open and honest discussions about anything race-related, is basically just us not wanting to provide any opportunity for “White America” to gather more evidence to support their latent belief that we’re just not supposed to be here.
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These are just a few of the 350 or so comments this topic generated, but they provide a good snapshot of the tone of the entire discussion there. What’s jarring is the fact that these don’t seem to be unintelligent people. Many of the people who frequent that site have well thought out and “researched” theories about why blacks are intellectually inferior, and they seem to be mentally, intellectually, and emotionally invested in proving this to be true.
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Ironically, the comments in “Not Tipping While Black” actually prove why Eating While Black even exists. While they’re interpreting our “pickiness” and occasional animosity towards (white) servers as entitlement and us trying to “get over on the man,” it’s really just distrust — distrust of white establishments, distrust of white people’s ultimate intentions, etc — and statements like this “…black patrons of restaurants aren’t oriented to the bill for their food, literally because their minds have trouble conceiving it.” do nothing but fan that flame.
Anyway, I’m pointing this out because it’s the exact reason why I — and many other black people— have serious reservations about being candid around most whites. Yes, I realize that not all white people share these views. In fact, I’m optimistic that the vast majority of them don’t. But, more than enough of us share the belief that deep down, many of them do.
And, the reluctance to freely share, to have open and honest discussions about anything race-related, to “air our dirty laundry in public” is basically just us not wanting to provide any opportunity for “White America” to gather more evidence to support their latent belief that we’re just not supposed to be here.
Strangely enough, this experience didn’t depress or dishearten me in the least. Maybe I just anticipated it and braced myself for it. And, maybe the “losing sleep over what racists think about me” part of my brain is underdeveloped too.
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All I am going to say is this: I was never a racist until I became a server working in a restaurant. I went to school where the demographic was roughly 30% black and 70% white and never had a problem. I worked at other places never had a problem. Serving though, opened my eyes! Here I was being discriminated against! Which means why should I care about black people now? Why should I think of them as equal if all they are going to do is “assume I am 5 percent racist.”? Black people, you got your wish. I… Read more »
I’m a Black woman who eats out at least once every day and I’m a great tipper. If my food or service or bad I let the manager know face to face rather than punishing the waiter with a lousy tip. With that being said, I have been ignored and treated rudely by restaurant servers because of racism and stereotypes attached to Black people. I’ve even seen initially nasty servers visibly change their attitude toward me when I didn’t live up to their poor expectations. I’ll also add that I only eat at restaurants that have open kitchens so that… Read more »
It’s not racism to allocate your time efficiently in a busy restaurant when doing so has a significant impact on your earnings. You’re asking servers (black and white) to subsidize the lack of tipping by black people who choose not to behave according to existing social norms when it comes to eating out in restaurants (i.e., tipping your waiter an appropriate amount). The fact that blacks don’t tip well causes fellow blacks to behave the same way as whites in this regard because the incentive transcends color. Question: Was it racism for blacks to vote for Obama because he was… Read more »
@Dude,
I amn’t sure whom you’re addressing. I also amn’t sure what planet you’re from, but by feck, it ain’t this one. “… most blacks don’t know what racism is..”!? Is that supposed to be funny, or something!? Once again (says I, grinding my teeth, and speaking slowly and distinctly), you’re not the one who’s going to be lifted for D.W.B. (driving while black), or end up dead in a police cell because of it. And that’s just for starters. I suspect you need to put on more tin foil. Some of their messages are getting through.
@DJ Roukan and Damon, Actually, I didn’t realise for years that I was supposed to tip the barber ( one doesn’t tip bar staff in the U.K.). I kept wondering why they kept glaring at me when I left. From over here, this whole conversation sounds a bit surreal. I used to work as a chef, so I hadn’t much dealing with punters, but as far as I could see, most people tipped according to their mood, personality, and commensurate with their national customs. Our absolute worst customer was Slabbert the ( white) South African. He was the nastiest, rudest,… Read more »
@Dude, Oh, for Christ’s sake, leave it out, mate. You know perfectly well that your not the one who is always going to stopped for driving a nice car, and then run the risk of being arrested (often for damaging a police truncheon with your head), and then yous massively less likely to accidently die in police custody. That’s the bleeding difference, and I’m sure you know that perfectly well. You remind me of some of my eejit, heterosexual, male friends who are always saying to my female friends regarding sexual harrassment, “Well, I wouldn’t mind if a pretty girl… Read more »
I have only recently started truly educating myself on my own racism and I can tell how recent that is for me by my reaction to your piece here – I found the racism you discuss in this article absolutely effing exasperating (it made my blood boil, frankly), while you, on the other hand are discussing it in this incredibly calm and insightful way. Obviously this is because you’ve been dealing with offensive crap like this forever and ever and I’m only recently engaging with the topic because being white I got the choice on that. But anyway, kudos to… Read more »
“UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND RACISM (WHITE SUPREMACY) EVERYTHING ELSE WILL ONLY CONFUSE YOU.” -Neely Fuller.
I fully understand that many of my automatic reactions in public were based on an in-trained racism which embarasses me every time it comes out. I do not have a racist bone in my body, but the culture I grew up in put it in the programming. I think the best white person in America is still 5% racist– the lower that percentage, the more we seem to be aware of it. Which is why the redneck trucker who just used the “N” word, when challenged, comes right back with, “I’m not a racist!” and goes through a justification of… Read more »
what % of the best black people are racist?
also, the “N” word just slips out of your mouth? even I’m not that racist. i’ve only ever used the word with irony or quotation.
It’s a mark of how far American society has come that the word “racist” is now a horrible insult, that no one wants to be labeled that way. It’s also a reminder of how far we need to go that even heads of the KKK and Aryan Nations don’t like to be called racist. Even people who are clearly racist don’t like the word. Progress. Of a sort. I guess.
Saying “redneck trucker” is racist.
And as promised, here is “part two” of my series addressing the issues Champ and Chuck have raised:
The Problem With Chuck Ross Isn’t That He’s A “Racist”; The Problem Is That He’s An Intellectual Coward
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/72606
O.
Well, since I see this discussion is still quite white-hot, pardon the pun, I thought to offer the following:
An Open Letter To Champ & Chuck (Or, Putting The “Eating While Black” Debate Into Proper Perspective & Context)
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/72076
Part Two, the followup, drops today; wait for it…
O.
G.L. Piggy is a moronic waiter. Not a biologist. Not a sociologist. Not a psychologist. No kind of scholar at all. And nothing to lend ANY credence to what he says.
Let him be hateful. I wish upon him many lousy tips because he deserves every one of them for most likely terrible service.
If you say so.
Have you ever waited tables? Has Damon ever waited tables? Then how do either of you know anything about this?
Ignore Sara. She’s one of those who thinks that how many degrees you have matters for your intelligence level, as if someone with a doctorate couldn’t be a dumb ass. I’m about 100% certain the two universities I attended are higher ranked than her’s, yet I know from attending that there are some brain dead people at that level. People who can’t argue ideas usually argue education level or start making insults like her. A clear sign of Sara’s ignorance, not to mention her arrogance. Ironically, she doesn’t realize that someone like you with 7 years waiting tables is more… Read more »
I am a white male. I believe tipping should be something done for good service, but understand that in America tipping is considered a requirement (it is indeed different in Europe). Unless the service I have received was Earth-shakingly bad, I will give a normal tip. Why? Because if I don’t, I’m worried I will get bad service the next time, or someone will spit in my food, etc etc. The last time I gave a cabby a bad tip for bad service, he tried to kill me. Now I always give a decent tip. You posit that EWB is… Read more »
David, Appreciate the level-headedness here. My only disagreement happens to be a pretty big one though. First, keep in mind that black people tip black servers worse than average as well. Every black person at Damon’s blog who spoke on the issue said that the stereotypes fit their experiences as well. So this isn’t just about black and white. Second, the customer holds the power in a customer-server relationship. They control the tip, they control how quickly they eat their meal, they control what demands they make, etc. The server is powerless in every aspect save for their tableside manner… Read more »
You know if you had posted this response on the Gucci Litttle Piggy blog, you would have been labeled a leftist, lover of negros, and had your white priviledge card removed. Damon’s VSB blog entry set out to connect the dots like you did but too many people focused on the tipping part.
What strikes me the most throughout this discussion is Damon’s restraint and patience and the throughfulness of every response. I’m pretty good at diplomacy but I’m floored. This white Canadian girl is going to start reading Very Smart Brothas.
Why does it matter that you’re white and heading to read VSB? Are you looking for a medal or something.
You:
http://media.commercialappeal.com/media/img/photos/2011/07/31/1prayer1_t607.jpeg
Racism? Seriously? That’s child’s play. Try misanthropy. That’s where the fun is. For every black person you dislike there’s a white person who also serves as the object of your scorn. For every man there is a woman and for every adult there is a baby.
I eat guys like “gl piggy” for dinner.
Hahaha. Racists. So simple minded. Try thinking outside the box.
Yeah, I really hate babies. They tip like shit and tend to leave food crumbs all over the floor when they’re done eating.
Please, more of these inane comments.
A tip is exactly that, a tip! It shouldn’t be mandatory, it’s a response to good or exceptional service. Nobody should just expect to be given extra money for doing their job unless they do it well.
Have you even read any of this? Yeah, if you give crappy service expect to get a crappy tip. But if you get good service then tip accordingly. The point is that black folks tend to raise the bar on what they deem adequate service. Which is their preogative, but look at it from the server’s point of view. If they have a reasonable expectation that they are going to have to work harder for a decent tip on a certain table, why not just work a little harder on your other tables and boost those tips?
By the same standard you should walk out on the bill if you found the food subpar. You are paying a part of the server’s and other staff’s wages with your “tip”. Only gratuitous over-tipping is tipping in America. Under-tipping is actually stiffing them on the bill. So no, in America at least it is not a tip.
Two thoughts kept going through my mind as I read the comments to this piece. My first thought was that the piggy, oops, the lady doeth protest too much. Second, don’t feed the trolls. Thank you for the thoughtful piece Mr. Young.
this whole conversation is funny to me mainly because i am black and i tip. i never tip below the recommended percentage even after receiving piss poor service and when service has been amazing i’ve given extra. why? cause i’m considerate at the very least. i won’t argue the right and wrong of situations like these but i will say no matter how much i keep MY OWN MIND above things like racism and racist thoughts and perceptions, it is nice to know that i’ll still be judged and labeled by my race and then be treated accordingly anyway. thank… Read more »
You know what, here is MY question…why are we throwing away our disposable income into these wastelands of contempt? We DESERVE to be talked about by G.L. Piggy because we have lost our pride and our history (and I say this as a first generation American who is PROUD to be African American). SERIOUSLY. Look at our rates of obesity, unemployment, poverty and home ownership. Why do we struggle so hard to fit into — and gain the approval of — those that view us as floating pieces of sh#t? I had nights working til 3 am as a big… Read more »
Umm, Champ wrote a piece about this discussion though. You can’t expect someone to change the discussion. Besides, these discussions aren’t mutually exclusive. Point is, when a person does actually go to a restaurant they are expected to tip according to social custom. If and when they don’t, they can’t expect some sort of blowback.
Since credentials are being tossed around though, I have a Master’s degree in Econ from a state school, yet I get shit on by patrons who have a fraction of *my* education. So what does that tell you?
Hon, you can have a degree and still be ignorant. You lean on the credentials bit but I also “tossed” my experience. Here is your lesson for today: I’m not Jesus. So it’s actually not okay for you to project the behavior of some other person onto me and give me poor service preemptively. I don’t bear the yoke of every other sh*head you met even if there were 20 in a row right before I walked in …and one of them was my twin…my conjoined twin. See that’s RACISM. “Rational” racism is still RACISM and for an economist, its… Read more »
Question for you, wise old lady . . . If a black person in Alabama in the 1950s went to twenty different white-owned stores in a row and got overcharged each time and decided thereafter he was going to frequent black-owned stores which gave him better prices, would he be a racist? Based upon your logic in the above comment, your answer would be yes, unless of course you are a) illogical, b) ignorant, or c) a hypocrite. My guess is you are a combination of all three. The black person in Alabama would be wise (and a good economizer… Read more »
Sweetie, you brought up the credentials as if they mean anything. You played that card and then folded. So, yes, you are correct that one can have credentials and still be ignorant. You’ve made that quite clear. And your argument is not logically consistent. You think I should read people based upon certain other characteristics, tics, or behaviors but I can’t use the most obvious and indicative factor to make the same determination? Blackness is a really good screen in this case. Many other social deficiencies (in the realm of restaurants) tend to be coupled with a patron’s race. A… Read more »
Damon, Nice article. I generally dislike these type of articles, because they usually miss the point, but I enjoyed your first article on race and didn’t comment, because there was little in the way of “kill whitey” in it. Good stuff. Intelligent and well written. Thank you. My opinion, but it comes down to a lack of trust on both sides. A negative feedback loop has been put into effect and its hard to assign blame anymore. Generally speaking, when I see in other white people demonstrate “bigoted” behavior, its usually because they feel it’s being directed towards them as… Read more »
“My opinion, but it comes down to a lack of trust on both sides. A negative feedback loop has been put into effect and its hard to assign blame anymore. ” I agree 100%. “Why don’t more black people understand or talk about the fact that thousand upon thousands of white people died opposing slavery and racism? African Americans did not fight their war on racism alone and could not have made the advances they did, without a large segment of the white people in this country” Hmm, I don’t think this is true. Anyone who’s read a history book… Read more »
I’m one of those people who tends to think that “white privilege” is overused as an explanation for things, but I do think there is an element of truth to the idea that in American culture white people have some freedom to be “independent of race” that other groups don’t. In multi-ethnic settings, black people are often looked at as “representatives of their race,” while white people often are not. I don’t think there are many white people thinking “don’t talk about Lindsay Lohan while the black people are listening.” Not a lot of white people are considered “a credit… Read more »
Who knew that there was a stereotype that Blacks were poor tippers? I am fascinated with conversations of race, so when I went to read this link I was a bit surprised by some of the racist comments that such a generalization brought forth. “Free-riding”, really? I just wanted to say that whenever a racist white person is on the news, I cringe (I’m white). It makes me angry that such ignorance gets any air time. I worry that it perpetuates the stereotype that all whites are racist or have underlying racist tendencies. Although everyone at some time or another… Read more »
Poor tipping – when service was adequate – is free riding. Since the prevailing norm is one of 15-20% tips, anyone who doesn’t tip up to that standard is taking up time and resources that could have been devoted to waiting on other patrons who are going to meet that norm. In general, black people more than any other group come into a restaurant expecting 15-20% service while only paying for 10% service. Pay 10% service if you want – fine. But if patterns persist (and they do, they’re backed by academic research) then the group has to live with… Read more »
discussions about race tend to make my eyes bleed. in high school, a classmate asked me if i was “a black girl who listens to white music and wants to be white.” i wasn’t the most articulate (and never argumentative) sort of kid, so i shouted “NO” in her face, and stormed away. since then, i’ve noticed most of my life revolves around similar situations, like when my hairdresser asks while she puts in my weave, with a twinge of suspicion in her voice, “do you even listen to hip-hop?” (the answer is yes. i just don’t listen to that… Read more »
Wow! I’m shocked! I’m a white female (Scottish/Italian) who dates black men. From my own experiences I can say that black men tip just as much if not more than white men (or men of other races). My experiences come from being taken out to restaurants and from being a server at a fine dining establishment where I served people of different races. In all honesty, and from own experiences, middle-aged women are the worst tippers. I’m sure most servers in my geographical area would agree to this fact. Maybe it’s more about geography than race………..maybe not. I echo Daddy… Read more »
Well since you have also bought into the stereotype game I can only shoot back by stating that your sample size is woefully small. Black dudes don’t tend to tip better than white dudes. Ask any server or read up on the literature that I’ve posted here at GMP. I can’t ignore that your first sentence – that you are a white girl who dates black men (exclusively? why don’t you date *men*) – sort of indicates your internal bias. you have a vested interest in the touting the tipping habits of the men who you have fondness for. a… Read more »
I’m BLACK. My dad believes in BIG tipping for excellent service. He’s from the Caribbean * he’s Black. I share his philosophy on this…If the service is good- I give a good tip, if it’s great – I leave a great tip. If I frequent a place & see the same staff I leave good tips because of the familiarity factor.
Since I’m Black, I’m screwed before I walk into a place because we’re all painted with the same brush?
Nice to know.
Never did I say that blacks are “screwed” before walking in the place. You’ve never stereotyped people based upon patterns displayed by others that they share characteristics with? Servers – white, black, whatever – have experienced very many bad tippers who happen to be black. There is a pattern there. Like anyone in any business anywhere servers naturally feel out the customer while hoping for the best. I go to a table of black patrons with the assumption that they will tip me less than white patrons and that they will run me more (more work for less pay). Since… Read more »
Sometimes and sometimes not. If one expects a person to complain, one may unconsciously do things to cause that person to complain. That in turn prompts that person to assume that they will always get treated poorly, causing them unconsciously behave in ways that might prompt a bad service. The whole thing feeds on itself.
Blacks as a group tip poorly. There are reasons for this. There are a lot of different hypothesis for why black folks tend not to conform as readily to prevailing social norms. Champ presented his without much in the way of evidence and rehashed the blanket “Eating while black” argument which does nothing more than place control for the outcomes of black folks squarely in the laps of white people – in this case those of waiters and waitresses. But when do black people get to take responsibility for their own life outcomes? I responded to Champ’s post and then… Read more »
If you’re talking to people who think black people in general are all retarded then I think you pretty much have to discount that person’s opinion out of hand. Because he/she is an idiot. I’m white. I also talk about everything to everyone, even when it makes people uncomfortable. Actually, sometimes I prefer making people uncomfortable depending on the topic. I’ve asked my gay friends, point blank, why they think they’re gay and we’ve talked about the use of the term “faggot” and calling things we don’t like “gay.” I’ve asked my black friends why they can use the word… Read more »
I’ve asked my gay friends, point blank, why they think they’re gay and we’ve talked about the use of the term “faggot” and calling things we don’t like “gay.” I’ve asked my black friends why they can use the word “nigger” but I can’t, even if it’s in the same context as they’re using it
My question to you would be why would you even want to use those words?
I notice you didn’t answer the question. Perhaps you didn’t understand it. He never said he wanted to use the word, just asked why there was double standard in the use of the term. One could ask that question about a lot of things, both in terms of white racism towards blacks, and black racism towards whites. Damon, you’re a good writer, seem pretty level-headed (though I disagree with your ideas on some issues), and you obviously have a large following and I respect your taking the time to deal with these issues and engage in the conversation. As Eric… Read more »
It’s not that I have a desire to use those words. I heard them use the words talking to one another and so I asked because I was curious. I love words and I have a hard time believing it’s acceptable for one group of people to use a word but not another. So I asked them because I wanted to know.
Why so defensive? As a writer I thought furthering discussion would be looked at as a good thing.
Daddy Files, I get “defensive” when questions like that are brought up because the answer is so obvious that I assume that the person asking the question is just trying to be a smart-ass. Basically, white people can’t call blacks nigger and straight people can’t refer to gays as faggots for the same reason that my mom calls my dad by his first name but he’s always going to be “dad” to me. There’s a familiarity that my parents share that, despite how close I am to them, I’ll never be a part of, and I’m ok with that. I… Read more »
So are you saying that ‘races’ are akin to extended family? The problem with your analogy is that your parents could get divorced, both go on to remarry white spouses, and the new couples will be on a first name basis. All of your examples include lines that you can cross. I can get a promotion at work and become a peer of my former superiors. I can become a member of the clergy. There are rites in which I could be initiated in any particular group to be treated as a member of that group erasing barriers that created… Read more »
“All of your examples include lines that you can cross.” Although my Mom and Dad will always be Mom and Dad to me, I see what you mean. But, I think you’re getting too caught up on whether my analogy was perfect instead of the point I’m trying to make. I’m actually both tired of having this discussion about “nigger speaking rights” and intrigued by those who want to continue to have this debate. I guess this makes me ambivalent about this issue. I mean, there are hundreds of thousands of words in the English language (millions if you include… Read more »
Word meaning is fluid. With a concerted effort, people can change the common meaning of words. In some cases you can take an insult and make it into a source of pride. You can now get a degree in Queer Studies, for example. See also Inga Muscio’s book _Cunt: A Declaration of Independence_. Sometimes the meaning of a word can change virtually overnight. Just ask the Hon. Rick Santorum, or anyone named “Peg.” I don’t know if the n-word is salvageable, but even some of the most reprehensible words have lost their sting. My “Baptist” ancestors were burned at the… Read more »
Also, I didn’t mean to imply that you actually wanted to cross those lines. But, I honestly don’t understand where that question comes from.
Damon, Perhaps you need a white person to educate you on how to think about black people. One thing I’ve read on your blog, both by you and commentators, and on the “Good” men project site in articles by blacks, is the need for white people to be educated by blacks on how to understand blacks. Perhaps you don’t understand that a white person has difficulty understanding how double standards biased against whites and racism towards whites is okay when such behavior towards other groups is wrong. Perhaps I ought to write a blog post called “The Black Person’s Guide… Read more »
Correction. Should read: “Perhaps you need a white person to educate you on how to think about white people.”
I just mentioned this upthread, but I’m curious to see your answer to this question:
“There are hundreds of thousands of words in the English language (millions if you include Pittsburghese and Wu-Tang lyrics). I really just don’t understand why saying “Hey, can you just not say this one word, please? Thanks in advance!” receives such pushback.”
It doesn’t receive pushback. The vast majority (probably more than 90-95% of white people) think calling someone a nigger is wrong. What they disagree with is the notion that it’s somehow okay to use racist language against whites (like “2520” or “Caspar” or “honkey”). Both sets of words are wrong. Calling someone who is white one of those three terms is just as wrong as calling a black person a nigger. The difference is that whites seem recognize the wrongness of the word nigger, but you and many blacks (as evidenced by the number of racial epithets towards whites on… Read more »
I have a related question about having different vocabulary rules for different groups of people. The anonymous nature of the internet complicates that, it seems to me. If someone whose race is not evident uses “nigger” or “whitey” on a blog, of if the sexual orientation is not evident when the person writes “dyke” or “breeder,” do we give the author the benefit of the doubt, or do we demand some kind of identification before letting the writer get away with it? It seems ludicrous that other bloggers would call someone on it and then be reassured enough to say,… Read more »