Pointing our anger at the facilitators of a discussion on consent interferes with our ability to see a greater point.
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The various articles that have appeared here on The Good Men Project regarding the topic of consent have started an intense and necessary conversation. I was originally satisfied to observe it from the sidelines—that is, until I learned that colleagues and contributors were targeted personally and, in my view, unfairly. I’m responding primarily to those who’ve taken issue with The Good Men Project’s decision to print the anonymous article titled I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Give Up Partying.
I understand the intense emotions this article generates. I was not married to my wife for two years when she was mugged just outside an apartment we were renting in Chicago, forced into a gangway at knifepoint and raped. I was away, attending graduate school in New York City. We were quite literally penniless, paying rent in two cities, and if not for a gift from a saint, I would not have made it out to her for a very long time—as it was, I did not see her for four days after the assault, and she hadn’t been able to reach me for three (we didn’t have mobile phones).
The rape changed our marriage dramatically. Our mental health suffered—we immediately understood how few people we could trust with our fragile and volatile emotions: confusion, fear, anger and overwhelming pain. I learned how powerfully rape isolates the victim. Otherwise well educated people quickly blamed her for “being out late” (she’s a violinist and was returning from a gig). “That’s what you get,” I was told, “for living in a shitty neighborhood.” I tortured myself: had I been wealthier, had I not been living in New York City, had I not been so selfish to go to Columbia University (to study writing, a fool’s subject), none of this would have happened.
People do not know the inexplicable, unfathomable nature of the trauma. One person is raped, yes, and the assault remains the fire at the heart of the crime’s kiln. But the act also causes harm to anyone who loves the victim. The pain is everlasting; you might manage it or shape it to something, but you will not destroy it, and you certainly won’t forget it. Twelve years have passed. I would describe the tremble to my fingers as I type, the hot anvil that is pressing on my chest if it did not leave me digressing from my larger point.
We need to be clear: the rapist caused the pain, not those who asked him Why are you a rapist?
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If someone gave my wife’s aggressor a platform from which to spew his point of view, what he actually said would matter very little. He could make perfect sense or babble absurdity, but I would seethe with rage, and I’d return to the violent revenge fantasies, abreactions that haunted me for years—they actually flash right back as I type these words. If in the process someone decided to prosecute or punish, no one would allow me to serve on the jury of his trial, and I know no punishment currently legal that would fit the crime. In my imagination, I have tortured him in ways that horror scriptwriters would reject as stuff too sick for any screen.
But what the rapists says, how he rationalizes his crime, regardless of what emotions it triggers in the hearts of his victims, does matter to a larger context. If we are to have a civilized, enlightened conversation, his rationalization matters enormously. We ask: how could someone do this? Whom better to ask than the perpetrator himself?
As victims, their lovers, family members, friends or allies, we pick the wrong target for our rage and frustration if we blame the person holding the microphone to the rapist’s lips. He’s anonymous; we can’t write him messages or flood his Twitter account with contempt. Let us loathe some effigy of him; it is useless and unhealthy to ignore or deny that rage. But we need to be clear: the rapist caused the pain, not those who asked him Why are you a rapist?
And look at his repugnant answer: You accept [the tradeoff of potentially raping someone] because [it comes] with amazing times. [It comes] with glowing memories of an intensity entirely beyond the mundane…crazy sex with amazing people, [it comes] with living a few hours at a time in a world where anything, anything at all, can happen.
This tragic fool, this unskilled mind, clueless to the core, is incapable of seeing his own contradictions. In one corner he speaks about “glowing” memory; in the other he admits he has forgotten entire episodes of life. He considers drunks and tripping idiots amazing in their own right, more amazing now that they’ve agreed (or not, but who really cares, in his view) to fuck him. He seeks an extraordinary world, but blinded by drugs and the influence of delinquents, he cannot see how ordinary an inebriated twit is, how repulsive his lack of any moral center. He is dangerous and needs to be removed from society.
But here’s another danger: we enhance his tragedy if we do not see what it suggests. It is not singular, limited to him. This anonymous rapist’s essay has held a mirror up to us, and it blazes with the news: here are the symptoms of our dysfunctional culture. We seek out fantasies, delude ourselves with the idea that they can become real. We seek not happiness and peace but bliss and euphoria; we don’t want to see the beauty that’s before us but wish to live a myth where “anything, anything at all, can happen”. We want the power to control and possess, but we’re blind to the power all of us have right now to stop and look at any common thing and see, as children do quite naturally, how amazing it is. Ironically, lost in the desire for euphoria and myth, we’re kept from seeing that we have the power to severely reduce the instances of injustice in the world if we learned to look at our trembling hands, at the blazing kiln of pain in our hearts and wonder, bloody hell, how extraordinary. How amazing. Where does it come from?
We are not validating the rapist if we hand him a microphone. Quite the opposite. We expose him, and then get to ask important questions. How is it possible for someone to get to this point? More importantly: where is the beginning of the path that leads to this tragic perspective?
Photo by visual.dichotomy.
My big problem with Lisak & Miller’s survey is that it did not give both men and women the same questionare. By not giving the men and the women the same questionare the authors of that study demonstrated both bad statistical and scientific method and neglegent anti-male sexism. They assumed only men rape, and only women are victims. I suspect that if they started giving both men and women the same exact questionare with both the questions about have you forced, and has someone forced you a very different picture might arise. But until that study is done we will… Read more »
My big problem with Lisak & Miller’s survey is that it did not give both men and women the same questionare.
Bingo and Que the Woozle.
Alyssa Royse – Thank you for the loving response to my earlier post. I felt your hug and heard your applause. I laughed and cried at the same time. I love your animal sense of fashion and style! You are right, we will fix this for the sisters and brothers, daughters and sons that come after us. Look at how far we have come already, just in my lifetime. In this country growing up and the generations before me never even discussed child molestation. Today, it is safer for a child to tell on their abuser. It used to be… Read more »
Jill Filipovic: There’s a difference between what is legally rape in the USA and what many people here seem to think it is. Without more information of his drunken hookups all I can say for sure about this man is that he THINKS he raped someone. It might also be pointed out that he THINKS -but is not sure because he can’t remember- he might have raped others. I’ll agree that his ridiculous devotion to the party lifestyle when it possibly has led to him raping (and possibly even being raped himself) numerous times is stupid and needs condemmned in… Read more »
Clarence, It’s no nice when you point out basic things to Jill Filipovic, such as having insufficient information to make a judgement call and impose her reality upon all mankind. It’s rude even and makes her look bad. It’s not gallant – and she will be offended. P^)
Further, Lisak and McWhorter are fine as far as they go. But you have to remember that they are looking at one small section of rape and rapists. THOSE WHO SELF IDENTIFY and knowingly, intentionally commit rape. For anti-rape activists to build their entire platform on that one, very focused study does a disservice to rape and rape survivors in general, it is flawed foundation because their methodology can only underreport rape in the aggregate. If we are to say that ALL rape is defined by this narrow study, then we codify the underreporting of rape, which is the EXACT… Read more »
Clarifying – the men in the Lisak & McWhorter study KNEW THEY DID NOT HAVE CONSENT and identified as such. They self-identify as knowing they did not have consent, not as “rapists.” In my enthusiasm I blurred that. Because in my mind, if you know you don’t have consent, and do it anyway, you’re a rapist. The men in the study KNEW THEY DID NOT HAVE CONSENT and did it anyway. That is a small subset. It does not catch the many cases, like the one I outlined, in which that is not the case. And is almost certainly a… Read more »
I am not convinced that people who rape don’t know. At the minimum I think it’s possible that knowledge is buried in cognitive dissonance and in internalized dominance. I think a lot of rapea are done by people taking what they want and having some clue that it’s not right
Julie, I think you could very well be right, that it is rooted in cognitive dissonance.
How do we combat that?
Well, I’m thinking a lot about that right now. We don’t teach people how to manage it, first of all. Not at all. In fact, I don’t know if I even heard the term until I was in a master’s program which had counseling as part of it. But undergrad psych students probably learn it. We have a culture that promotes a binary. You are right or wrong, good or bad, sinful or not. Cognitive dissonance is what happens when you view yourself one way and act another. Or…you are a Democrat and fall in love with a Republican…either you… Read more »
Internalized dominance? Seriously? It sounds like “All men are patriarchal oppressors, all men have a need to dominate… all men are abusive, rapists, who need to dominate everything and everyone… ra ra ra ra ra… Really? That’s offensive! And it demonstrates an extremely shallow understanding of men an masculinity. I posit two situations the first is my example of something that is clearly rape, the second arrises out of reading the article https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/id-rather-risk-rape-than-quit-partying/ Situation one: a man is intrested in a women, but she is so drunk that she passes out. He has sex with her anyway. This is clearly… Read more »
One More Anonymous Reply – I am giving you the biggest hug it is possible to administer through a computer screen. The big kind. The kind that says, “yes, this is a shit storm, and ya know what, we’re gonna fix it for everyone who comes after us. Together. By speaking the truth, fighting the violence and standing strong with love and supporting each other through really hard dialogs. we got this.” That kind of hug. We have to figure out how to teach the world exactly what your husband said, despite all the media messages, all the partying, all… Read more »
Wow! What a way to start the day… Reading Giving a Rapist a Public Platform and I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying. I did not expect said articles to have such a huge emotional impact on me and my understanding of rape. While I appreciate the warning in “Editor’s note: This is a difficult article to read, and to publish. It is a frank, open confession about a certain commonly-accepted form of rape culture, and readers with rape triggers should probably avoid reading it…… I didn’t know that I had rape triggers. I grew up in the 60’s, the… Read more »
This made me cry. I had the same kinds of experiences when I was young. I don’t write or talk about the publicly but know that I am crying right now. You have a wonderful husband, I am so glad a man like him is a police officer. No means no is good, and it’s true. But “I’m not sure I want to” “I’m not ready” “I’ve had too much to drink” “I’m not thinking clearly” and “I am going to regret this tomorrow” are also forms of “no” that “No means No’ prevention methods don’t cover. But they are… Read more »
I also want to say that if YOU don’t want to call what happened to you “rape”, you don’t have to. Call it what feels right to you. To me, saying “no” and then being talked/forced into it sounds like rape, but this is your experience and none of us can tell you what happened or how to feel about it.
My comment this morning was not approved – guessing that it was due to my taking a swipe at Feministe and their vicious attempts to censor thoughts and ideas and malign individuals.
But there is hope – if you read the later entries “over there” you will note a widening of discussion on this very topic.
This is your doing Alyssa and Joanna
Elissa – I can PROMISE you that if your comment didn’t get through it was an oversite, certainly NOT because of taking a swipe at Feministe’s tactics. (Something that we, unfortunately, feel the need to do. Though not to swipe, but because, as I said in my comment above, I believe it is necessary for all of our protection and to further this much needed dialog.) Re submit, I am sure it just got lost. They don’t censor much, and certainly not that. Unfortunately, I can’t go over there and read the comments, yet. It’s still too hard. Unless it’s… Read more »
Yes, Elissa, if your comments didn’t go through here I can look into it, but I think you mean at Feministe? I am glad to hear the topic is widening. I don’t mean to tell anyone what to read or not to read and you won’t hear me say a single negative thing about Jill or Feministe in public. I do not attack individuals, only actions and rarely even that. More often, I just want to ask questions — Is this okay? Is this how we want our society to be? How can we stop this or create more of… Read more »
Though I found the series to be extremely disturbing, it was also very informative. Whether we like it or not, there will always be a small handful of people who think and act in such ways… such attitudes will never disappear absolutely (nor will any other). Having a rapist air out his psychopathy for the world to see was a rare view inside, and we can all better protect ourselves and our loved ones as a result. Consider this an educational experience. Unfortunately, we still live in a society that is willing to blame victims and let rapists run free.… Read more »
TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE DESCRIPTION I will get to some of the other comments later – especially Joanna’s brilliant begins of shredding the Lisak study on which Yes means Yes is built and Jill’s (surely rhetorical) question about why anonymity matters. (Having been victim of her take-down mentality that aims to silence dissenters rather than facilitate dialog, greater understanding and change, I can tell you why most people won’t dare stand up to her and her ilk.) First, thank you for this beautiful piece. Wow. So many people are touched by rape in so many ways, we just have to get… Read more »
Is it possible that you or someone could compile the most extreme messages into a post, I think it’s very important to highlight how troll armies/whatever people wanna call it can harass the hell out of people online and how hypocritical it is to have someone who is anti-rape say they hope you are raped. We see this often done for extremist MRA’s but it needs to be done more for all groups to call out the bad behaviour.
I have to say – I admire the courage you’re displaying by raising this topic, and by enduring all of the bullying and hate you’re being put through. I also admire the courage it must take to be open about such an unpleasant experience. I think the dialogue you’ve started has been a productive one, it’s gotten many people thinking more deeply about consent, and about cultural forces muddy the waters and how we can do it better. It’s been a hard and uncomfortable thing to think through but a worthwhile one. And I’m a bit disgusted by the treatment… Read more »
I respect the GMP for publishing the recent series on rape, including the “Nice Guys” (and rebuttals) and the Anonymous Rapist’s account. I personally don’t believe that publication = endorsement or support, but can understand that others would disagree. I think it’s important to include rapists’ voices in discussions of rapes – even unapologetic rapists like Anonymous (and so as not to confuse with terms like “rape apologist,” I mean he is unapologetic in that he admitted he’s a rapist and showed little to no remorse). If nothing else, I appreciate articles like these because they awaken my sense of… Read more »
The FBI behavioral scientists (“profilers”) know how important it is to understand why people commit crimes. That’s why they have spent decades and 1000’s of hours quietly interviewing the most heinous individuals in prison, the “worst of the worst” serial killers and sex offenders, in an effort to understand what makes them tick. I think there can be value in letting bad people tell their stories, as vile and disturbing as it may be. It helps us identify and stop other criminals. I remember when the book “American Terrorist”, the biography of Timothy McVeigh, was published. Many people were outraged… Read more »
Yup the FBI work and ViCAP (Violent Criminal Apprehension Program) are of value and have paid dividends globally. It seems that some criminal traits are human and not cultural. However, the Human Vs Cultural issue is still an ongoing issue for both the FBI and law enforcement in general. One value of Profiling and Blue Sky research around offending behaviour and anonymity is that offenders will even admit to criminal activity that they won’t face charges for. This can and does uncover parallel aspects of personalities which can be mapped. It’s a bit like mapping out a bigamous marriage where… Read more »
Well: Before we go any farther with this I should point out to everyone that rape currently has a “mens rea” component, and I do feel that most feminists want to make it a “strict liability” crime. This needs to be fought to the death if need be, because the term “rapist” is still enough to get someone lynched and so such a label should not be attached based merely on subjective feelings. I’ll also point out that this anonymous presumed rapist ( I have no idea his definition of “third base” it might not fit the legal definition of… Read more »
My two previous comments on your two previous articles were not approved, but because I feel so strongly about this I will give it one more shot. This is mostly a copy and paste of my comment at Feministe explaining precisely why your earlier piece angered me so much. First of all, this is not about not wanting to understand rapists because it’s “uncomfortable.” I get your point there, I do. It could be really useful to have an article describing the perspective of a rapist/rape apologist. But at the same it would it make it explicitly clear precisely where… Read more »
I think that’s half the point though, there have been a lot of comments telling this utter fuckwit to stop raping others. I also feel bad that he was raped n abused too of course, and I have anger that he continues to go out and put others at risk and himself. I really do hope others read this and get the idea that it’s FUCKING WRONG to rape, and that drinking to that point is really risky. I’ve actually been quite heartened to see people calling him out (and the other article), both male n female telling them that… Read more »
That’s just the thing, though – the impression I got was that he knows rape is bad and his actions are bad but he doesn’t care enough to stop partying and take himself out of the lifestyle where he admits this happens (not only admits but accepts). As it was positioned in the disclaimer, he is an addict. I don’t think any number of anonymous internet commenters telling him what a scumbag he is, or any number of survivor stories, would get through to a person like that – just like all the anti-tobacco messaging out there still doesn’t get… Read more »
Although the percentage of people smoking cigarettes has dropped dramatically since media messages about it started changing. The people who do anti-tobacco messaging & those they rely on have presumably done for decades what GMP says they want to do– extensive research on why people smoke and what messages will be effective in reducing smoking overall. What I don’t see coming out of any of the anti-tobacco groups though, are “Why I’d Rather Risk Cancer Than Stop Smoking” full of arguments and justifications about how smoking makes her thinner, more attractive, deal with stress, etc. etc. Since we’re all so… Read more »
Actually, discussing and getting people to talk about all of those things was an important part of the strategy. The thing to understand is that we are trying to have a discussion about all of the nuanced reasons why people act the way they do. You are right — the people at the anti-tobacco messaging did so for decades. We have just been around for two years. It is all still work in progress. We are talking not just about rape, but about a multitude of issues that affect men. We are just getting at the heart of some of… Read more »
Ok. When you were working anti-tobacco, did you ever publish media like this– pro-cigarette advertising arguing why cigarette smoking is still worthwhile despite the risks? If so, is it available somewhere on the Internet or what exactly was it?
Tony – why are you using “Fallacia Reductio Ad Absurdum”? You are asking questions that imply a valid comparative when you know it to be false. Why are you doing it and what is you goal?
My goal for publications like this to be as careful as possible about what messages they’re sending.
In any case, since this is all meant to start a discussion, and it seems like most people disagree with Anonymous, I look forward to the next piece rebutting this one and showing why Anonymous’s lifestyle is destructive and not worth while. I look forward to the next piece detailing explicitly what this implies about how boys are brought up and what changes need to happen. That’s the point right– expose to debunk?
Well you are going to be busy writing then, aren’t you Tony – these pages don’t just appear by magic. People have to contribute. So when you have written this follow on piece you refer to, we will all be waiting to read and comment. It takes courage to both write and respond – ask Alyssa. P^)
Ok… ‘Good Men’ Project will facilitate discussion when it’s about justifying rape and defending rapists, but when it comes for us non-rapist men out there to join the discussion and push back, we’re on our own. Got it.
Tony, I’m really sorry if you got the idea from some of our commenters that we don’t want you to join the discussion and push back.
We absolutely do. We’ve only deleted comments that were outright threats or insults to The Good Men Project, but I think you’ll find in the comments a lot of push-back. The GMP was started to facilitate conversation, and we welcome it as long as it’s conducted with respect.
Hopefully you got a chance to see the post I put up at the same time as this one was run: https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/this-is-why-we-published-a-rapists-story/ Some feel that it wasn’t enough critique of Anonymous, and I get that. So let me be more clear: Anonymous is a rapist and I believe charges should be brought against him by those in his life who know who he is. I have no doubt in my mind that he believes the risk of rape is worth the lifestyle, HOWEVER I believe strongly that he doesn’t realize that his potential victims probably haven’t signed onto that tradeoff,… Read more »
I appreciate the reply, Joanna. I believe you have good intentions, even if we disagree on means. People also need to see that this whole culture of sex-is-everything and that this is what we live for is NOT ubiquitous. Most of the men I know, I would argue most of the men in this country, do not need to resort to these risks to have a good time because we have enough things to fill our life that drunken sex just isn’t that indispensable. That is the norm, and I believe Anonymous’s assumptions about where to find the rewards in… Read more »
How is it false, and how are you so sure what Tony “knows?”
The post talks about how the man decides the risk of raping someone is worthwhile despite the risks. The comparative seems valid. And reductio ad absurdum isn’t fallacious… comparing two unlike things as if they are comparable is a straw man or a form of argumentum ad logicam, but you haven’t shown that, you’ve merely asserted it.
Which is petitio principii. 🙂
No – It’s just asking Tony why he is asking Bad questions and expecting Excellent answers. Fair’s fair!
Let’s get real though. The point of this entire series is that people who rape can be presented in a sympathetic and even flattering light because look — we just did it. And also want to show how their behavior is perfectly normal for people who live in ‘our culture’ which includes drinking alcohol and going to parties. Whether this leads to denunciation and en masse change in behavior in the form of people no longer partying and drinking and hooking up, or whether it just reinforces the notion that some rape isn’t all that bad, that rapists aren’t all… Read more »
I can hate someone for what they did, denounce the act as vile and the perpetrator as immoral, and still have sympathy for them for being so messed up. We want to believe that there is something objectively different about the people who commit these acts that makes them completely distinct and separate from us. We want to believe they are monsters – not just monstrous, but actual monsters, the things of nightmares. Well, monsters don’t exist. People do. These people are human. They are made up of the same stuff as us. They may share our country, our race,… Read more »
I can hate someone for what they did, denounce the act as vile and the perpetrator as immoral, and still have sympathy for them for being so messed up.
But does that mean you are wrong? Some will say yes, you are wrong, becasue you have to be: it’s their default setting whilst connected by USB and downloading a new reality. But does their way of processing ideas mean you have to be wrong?
I think it’s important as you say to give everyone a platform to speak, even if it’s the most vile language out there. It helps ME understand these people better, it helps ME learn how to avoid them, it helps ME understand how people either make mistakes or purposely abuse. To those that want to silence him because they don’t agree with the content, I ask why? Do you think other people will see this and start raping people? How many? Does this article help people at all? I say yes it does help.
You guys have a really angelic view of human nature. When I was growing up, the statement that “assholes get more sex than nice guys” was an argument for why we should have been assholes. Thank god it was never followed up with “nice guys actually care about consent”, because that would have been taken as an argument not to care about consent.
How, Archy? what
PDA, I’ve seen you ask this question over and over again, and in fairness you have not yet been answered. When I first took introductory physics in college, one of the very first labs was to have everyone go outside with a partner, someone would drop a ball, and someone else would time how long it took to hit the ground using a stopwatch. We’d do this 10 or 15 times, write down the times, and then go back inside and extrapolate the force of gravity. Because our measurements were so crude (timing by hand, the distances traveled were comparatively… Read more »
Thank-you, explains what I feel exactly. I like to learn from the source, not from someone’s interpretation of the source. I find it interesting to hear what they say even though I hate what they say.
I feel the same way Archy.
How, Archy? Specifically how has it helped? What have you learned?
That there are some who will force themselves on you in a drunken state, that rapists get raped, that some rapists do not see their actions are that bad. It gives insight in that person’s thinking and further reinforces my need to avoid alcohol with sex as it puts people into dangerous situations, that neither gender is safe? And before anyone says “Well you should know that already, it’s been said before” well yeah it has in different ways but we have ad campaigns renew themselves, and new ones popup saying THE SAME MESSAGE about rape pretty much yet I… Read more »
Great. I look forward to seeing your posts written by white supremacists detailing why their viewpoint is correct. I look forward to your post by an active serial killer about why he kills and how he plans to keep doing it (anonymously, of course! We wouldn’t want to stop him from being “honest”). I look forward to your post by a child molester detailing how kids just send messages that are so confusing and he doesn’t even realize he’s committing a crime, but he’ll probably keep molesting kids, because that’s just life! (Again, of course, anonymously so that he can… Read more »
It is possible to present one’s point of view without *arguing* it or trying to convince others to believe what you believe. It’s not about detailing “why their viewpoint is correct” but rather “what their viewpoint is and how they arrived at it.” I did not get the impression from the Anonymous piece that he was trying to argue for his worldview or saying that others should adopt it too. There was no “if only everyone thought this way, there’d be no more awkward conversations about things I don’t remember.” He accepts the consequences of his lifestyle but doesn’t ask… Read more »
But – presenting one’s point of view without *arguing* it or trying to convince others to believe what you believe, means the other party has to allow you and also runs the risk of finding out they are not perfect and can make mistakes. Research into blogging culture has shown all that can be done is locate the largest and most heavily defended bias.
The Good Men Project publishes the first-hand narrative of an admitted rapist — a rapist whose identity they intentionally conceal and actively cover for, even though he says he will probably continue raping — and you think I’m the one who’s scary?
So is that a NO to the Halloween booking?
Do they actually know the identity? Anyone can send an article in via an droppable email.
Didn’t feministe post about a female rapist? Did feministe conceal their identity or tell the police?
Nvm, it was another site. Do you know if they reported her for raping her bf in his sleep?
@Archy – It wasn’t just a female rapist, It got excused and some attempted to claim that “he” was lying as a way to be a control freak – gas-light – and it has even been said by the same writers that “I don’t think it makes her a bad person or a rapist. He was sleep-walking, she thought he was awake.” Twit removed.
Since he’s not the one insisting that someone’s voice be silenced, yes you are.
Why do you think it’s scary?
@ Jill Filipovic please keep twitting – this is classic “I don’t think it makes her a bad person or a rapist. He was sleep-walking, she thought he was awake.” So much for consent! Any more Apologia?
My post? or my comments? Was this meant to be directed at me? I’ve written comments about racism before on a post by someone who was racist if that helps? I’d much prefer them to be arrested n charged if possible so maybe get their accounts written from jail or after they are released or not have anonymous privileges. Being that it is anon it probably gives insight that they would withhold though, so maybe you could keep it anon for those who are already incarcerated if that helps bring out more honesty.
And so what if Archy does such posts? It’s not like he was saying the he necessarily agreed with such points. He clearly said it was for the purpose of UNDERSTANDING.
Jill I know for a fact I’ve seen commentary at Feministe before of folks saying they are glad that the angry “Boycott American Women” crowd and other like them is speaking up so that they can be identified and avoided.
Or is this one of those things where only certain people should be allowed to have such platforms?
“Jill I know for a fact I’ve seen commentary at Feministe before of folks saying they are glad that the angry “Boycott American Women” crowd and other like them is speaking up so that they can be identified and avoided.” Yup. If I can learn how to avoid men and women who rape n abuse, who see no wrong with their actions and have this party lifestyle then I feel safer. Often in reports of rape you see a woman being raped but this one shows a male, who raped AND has been raped showing that both men n women… Read more »
Actually, I’m pretty sure you don’t expose a rapist if you give him an anonymous platform to discuss his crimes and his intention to keep raping. I’m pretty sure that’s called “enabling” or even “supporting.” Want to hand him a mic? Have the guts to attach his name to it. Don’t publish it anonymously in a shameless ploy for page views. And as PDA says, actual researchers have looked into why rapists rape. This isn’t a mystery. Want to write about why rape happens? Have the journalistic integrity to do five minutes of research. We also know that rapists tend… Read more »
I think you actually answer a bunch of your own questions. For example, actual researches have examined why SOME rapists rape. Those studies are by no means either perfect, or complete. If you scroll up a little, you’ll see that Joanna has done some serious examination of those studies and concluded that they don’t address every possibility. And demonstrates that rather well. As for the anonymity? Why, that’s just so that this guy can be as honest as possible. That’s pretty simple and rather standard journalistic practice. When you have a source who would be immediately compromising herself by revealing… Read more »
As for the anonymity? Why, that’s just so that this guy can be as honest as possible. That’s pretty simple and rather standard journalistic practice. No, it’s neither simple nor standard, though it’s regrettably common in US journalism of late. You may recall this thing called the Iraq War, which was sold to the public in no small part by anonymous sources inside the administration, with the help of willing journalists more interested in getting a scoop than telling the truth. Far from allowing sources to be “as honest as possible,” it gives them the freedom to lie with impunity,… Read more »
Let me take a stab at answering this. I am the publisher, so ultimately the one who is responsible for everything that is posted. The goal of posting this was – as always – to have a robust discussion about difficult topics by offering different articles from different viewpoints in order to uncover truths and insights over time. This is in an effort to get people who normally wouldn’t talk about these issues into the conversation. That is an important point. Let me give you some background on this strategy as to why I think that is important for creating… Read more »
Excellent post Lisa
Thanks Jameseq. None of this is easy. But I don’t for a minute believe that the solution is to stop talking about these issues.
Me: I get that GMP writers think it contributes something. You have written two defenses of one article asserting that it does. What you haven’t detailed is what it contributes. Exactly what. Lisa: let me put it back on you — explain to me how the people who are working on this the “right” way are creating social change? I wonder if you’re able to see why I have a problem with this response. You published an intensely triggering piece that – as far as I know – brought no new information to the table and provoked no conversation other… Read more »
Then we need to all mutually define and understand what that dialogue means. Which I am all for seeing and participating in because I do see exactly what you are saying. Which is why I do not (and have been coming to this conclusion over time) believe that it’s easy to dialogue to get to these core questions, answers, process when people are face to face and with skilled facilitators. It’s about 100 times harder to do it online without any physical connection especially without mutually agreed upon expectations of engagement. What dialogue even means in this context is possibly… Read more »
I asked some questions about what can actually be learned from publishing this. I don’t see a reply. So an outline for dialogue would look more like 1) question 2) answer. I appreciate the request for clarity, but it doesn’t seem all that difficult to abstract from context. Especially when questions are in boldface right at the end of a comment. I’m open to the possibility that there was a direct reply that I am not seeing. But I see a response, different from a reply in my view, that there is something novel in what the maybe-fictional rapist said.… Read more »
Yes, agreed. I actually wasn’t asking you to clarify what you asked from from Lisa and even in my own attempts to participate have muddied the waters. I’m on the side of dialogue here and I’m nearly convinced its nearly impossible to do online. But she should answer your question. Generally speaking (not directly here to this situation) I think the reason going from abstract to context is difficult is due to part to cognitive dissonance around a topic, awareness of complicity, shame around that awareness, desire to make that feeling go away, holding and defending a position even if… Read more »
Got it.
I want to honor and thank you for being mindful in communicating. I see you using techniques I recognize (reflecting what I heard, owning my projections, etc.) and I appreciate the intent.
Thanks. And to be clear, I’m not expecting you to answer any of that. I’m aware how hard it is (personally and in group) to use mindful, intentional, open and non violence communication, track my own “stuff” and the dynamics of a group, have courage to nudge others compassionately but directly and be willing to engage in conflict that is not only intellectual but emotional while in person and committed to the experience. I rarely am able to do it online, nor do I see it online with any regularity and thus I don’t think that social justice work is… Read more »
First of all, I am sorry if that was triggering. We all here ARE engaging in dialogue. We’re taking everything people are saying — even if we don’t respond to every single comment — and are looking at how to make the conversation better next time. I explained why I think what we are doing helps create social change. We are talking not to people who think what we published “brings no new information to the table” but to other people, people who haven’t heard that story before. The words “I’ll put it back on you” is just asking you… Read more »
GMP is a multi-author blog, not journalism, so holding it to some standard of journalistic integrity is just denial of how blogs work. Even if it were journalism, “five minutes of research” would not be sufficient to achieve the standard you’re demanding. What it sounds like you’re demanding is that any discussion of rape follow a single academic standard which you approve of, in accordance with your interpretation of it, which probably sounds fantastic if you’re part of that academic niche, but would disqualify almost everyone else from participating, even if they were interested. (With those requirements, most won’t be.)… Read more »
Shameless page views, Jill? Are you worried that they’re doing it better than you?
Don’t! You are still among the top professional trolls around. You will continue to make money by manipulating and exploiting your readership well into your adulthood. In the meantime, step out of the way of folks who are generally seeking knowledge as it’s not your area of expertise or even familiarity.
It’s so odd seeing someone write so much about everything here and encouraging people to read it. I’m wondering if it’s some weird double bluff net marketing system .. sort of ping and pong tango marketing.
But what the rapists says, how he rationalizes his crime, regardless of what emotions it triggers in the hearts of his victims, does matter to a larger context. If we are to have a civilized, enlightened conversation, his rationalization matters enormously. We ask: how could someone do this? Whom better to ask than the perpetrator himself? Every time someone says this there is this “Oh What An Amazing Idea” thing that comes out. What I find amazing is that the same thing has been said time and again since at least 1973 – and the first US rape crisis centre… Read more »
We are not validating the rapist if we hand him a microphone. Quite the opposite. We expose him, and then get to ask important questions. How is it possible for someone to get to this point? More importantly: where is the beginning of the path that leads to this tragic perspective? I’m sorry, but this, as well as Joanna’s piece, is written as if nobody ever thought to investigate why and how rapists choose to rape. This has in fact been done, but in a rigorous manner rather than relying on a single account from an anonymous source that –… Read more »
If you want to explore the issue of why rapists rape, if you want to understand how they got to be the way, if you want to “ask important questions,” relying on a single anonymous tale is not the best or even particularly useful way of doing it. There is a lot of good information out there. Different people learn via different routes. I like you know the stats on rapists, however most people dont, nor know how they see the world. I think that rapist’s account would appall and mystify most people. And when they see others challenge and… Read more »
Okay, it’s time to talk about “Meet The Predators”. The data in the original studies cited on the Yes Means Yes blog post does *not* support the final conclusions in that post. Please, I ask everyone to find a way to access these studies—I had to actually go through a university’s library system to get them for free, but it was well worth it to see it with my own eyes. PDA I’m glad you bring this up, because I can see how troubling this discussion can be when framed in the context of “No, this is not how most… Read more »
Great point Joanna, thank you for really sifting through the nitty gritty of the science.
I imagine the real question we’d want to ask is something like:
“How many times have you had sex with a woman where you thought maybe she wanted to but you didn’t stop to check and she actually didn’t want to?”
Unfortunately, that’s a situation that by definition the perpetrator probably doesn’t know the answer too.
Yeah, Dan. While we need more study into this, it is hard to imagine how one would frame the questions so as to capture all forms of rape, in order to truly capture a representative sample. I think we still struggle with the definition of “rape” – Lynn Beisner wrote a wrenchingly honest account of her rape when she was 19. She’d given consent to lose her virginity to a man she knew and somewhat trusted. She was even happy to be doing it. Then he had what she could only imagine to have been a psychotic break and brutalized… Read more »
I agree with your points Joanna and I have read one of the two (Lisak’s) and they do acknowledged that generalizability is a concern, but mitigate it by mentioning other studies that find the same percentages. I have not checked their references to see if they use the same type of questions that you have highlighted as reducing the ability to generalize, so your point stands. Koss found a higher percentage using her set of questions, which if you are familiar with, will probably agree that they widen the net. What also stood out was that 60% of the rapists… Read more »
Yes, the men found in the Lisak study were very, very bad men for all intents and purposes. The other study, if you should find it, has the set of interview questions at the very bottom – in the appendix, so they can be frustrating to find. I’d love more details on the Koss study if you don’t mind. I think that regardless of the other studies cited, in order to truly generalize it as Yes Means Yes (I will reiterate that I hold Yes Means Yes in high regard, generally) has in “Meet the Predators” there would have to… Read more »
Joanna, I wasn’t talking about the blog post. I was talking about the study itself, which I couldn’t find in full text on the Internet. So if you want, we can talk about the limitations of that study and how it was conducted. I can see the validity of your concerns, and I’d like to understand the material better. A good corrective for this, in my mind, would be to do MORE RESEARCH, and better research. If the study is misleading because the sample size is too small or skewed in a particular direction, how much more misleading is a… Read more »
I think there’s a big difference between limiting conversation based upon one misinterpretation of data and requesting more research. Certainly we should have more research! I wish I were in the capacity to conduct the study (well, do I? I’m a blogger, not a scientist…) but I’m not. I’m an editor at an online magazine which focuses primarily on personal narratives. To me, the conversation is huge. All of this, even the hatred and the furor, is a part of talking about what needs to be said. Ally Fogg believes that there are NO “accidental rapes” – that any rape… Read more »
I’m not aware of anyone “attempting silencing” here. Frankly, I think that’s a bit melodramatic. My critique – which as far as I can tell is in line with what’s being said here – is that it’s a sensationalistic piece that added nothing to our understanding of rapists and their motivations, and provided support to the “they were both drunk so they raped each other” line of apologist reasoning (as evidenced in the comments to that post). Anyway, I’ll speak for myself: I’m not trying to silence anyone. I’m challenging your rationale for publishing the piece. And why put up… Read more »
I’m not aware of anyone “attempting silencing” here. Frankly, I think that’s a bit melodramatic. Well sorry to have to say this – but actually there are quite a few who are using a number of techniques to attempt to silence other people. Making claims that require long explanations to debunk – making comments about such things as melodrama to heighten emotional response. Been studying the subject for years, and actually a number of people here know all about the techniques and how they get used. So sorry, if you are unfamiliar with the realities, that is unfortunate, but they… Read more »
Just curious: is “your comments are an attempt to silence” one of the techniques used to silence people? Because that seems to be exactly how you’re using it.
Also, the condescending “been studying the subject for years” thing? Totally not dismissive or silencing. Cheers.
Oh – It wasn’t my intention – but it is odd that you raise a pattern of language and rhetoric, copied from your own posts, as being about silencing people. Do you have an academic reference that you are using?
Oh, PDA I absolutely 100% do not mean to say that YOU or any of the commenters here are trying to silence anybody, and I apologize if that is what it sounded like. You’ve been reasonable, heartfelt and open with your opinions and I have respected that all along. We appreciate that. And I hear you about how it can be triggering. Trust me, without details, I can tell you that I understand. Deeply. However, I hope that you’ll understand that in no way did I or the people responsible for the Anonymous piece intend to excuse it. More, as… Read more »
I felt like you were trying to imply there was nothing of value for ME to get from these articles, it felt a bit silencing or dismissive as if it had been done before so we should be happy with what we already have in the world of text. It was actually the first time I read a rapist dismiss it so easily and desire the lifestyle.
We cannot talk seriously about rape if we’re only going to talk about one kind. … and only about one dynamic of male perp and female victim. Why Does That Have To Be Repeatedly Pointed Out? I’m sorry – but the mindset and modus operandi for Perp and Victim is more than he bad she good! …And Of course this is where the Overwhelming Tropes get wheeled out and studies only have access to.. blah, blah, blah. The Church Of The Rapist is far bigger than recognised, Just as the Church of The Victim is both heavily proselytising and had… Read more »
“If you want to explore the issue of why rapists rape, if you want to understand how they got to be the way, if you want to “ask important questions,” relying on a single anonymous tale is not the best or even particularly useful way of doing it.”
That’s fine, but this isn’t the Journal of the American Sociological Association. This site, the Good Men Project, is devoted specifically to individual men telling their specific, individual stories. If you consider the format inadequate for addressing one of the issues men face, you can certainly provide pointers to other resources.
I really appreciate this piece. Let’s hear from …*everyone*. And the illnesses, cultural and personal, will come out; and as a result we’ll have a greater chance of curing them.
Gint a great and courageous piece. I am proud to be associated with you and with the wider discussion we are having here. I am so sorry for the pain you and your wife have gone through. The larger points you make are moving and true IMO.
I second this, a very powerful piece Gint, very powerful
“This anonymous rapist’s essay has held a mirror up to us, and it blazes with the news: here are the symptoms of our dysfunctional culture. We seek out fantasies, delude ourselves with the idea that they can become real. We seek not happiness and peace but bliss and euphoria; we don’t want to see the beauty that’s before us but wish to live a myth where “anything, anything at all, can happen”. We want the power to control and possess, but we’re blind to the power all of us have right now to stop and look at any common thing… Read more »
This strikes me as a really scary viewpoint. Study after study has shown that the percentage of men who actually commit rape is very small (I seem to recall estimates somewhere in the range of 4%). The share of the population that exhibits addictive behavior is likewise small (I seem to recall estimates between 10 and 20%). Yet you are looking at these VERY small percentage of the population and attempting to generalize it to be “our entire culture.” Furthermore, there is a WORLD of difference between the kind of rape discussed here (knifepoint, extreme violence), and the actual experience… Read more »
I’m not sure, but I believe you are misunderstanding me. I”m not assuming that all of us hurt each other all the time or in big ways like rape. I’m not even assuming that when people grope, as per your example, that is from malevolent intent that they are conscious of. I’m aware that our current culture does have themes and dynamics of control and power and that we are all affected by those dynamics to various levels and that plays into issues like rape, racism, sexism and other isms. And other things. I’m actually pretty optimistic that most humans… Read more »
Chiming in …I do feel that we as humans are generally a healthy (psychologically & otherwise) bunch. That said, as a longtime meditator (for 8 years anyway), I’ve run into some downright weird nooks & crannies in my own mind that I didn’t expect, don’t want & would rather didn’t exist. Talking to others in my group, it’s not just me who has these … We’re complicated critters, and be your sins small or grand …well, I’ve found so far mine usually do benefit from a little light & some air. One small note: Until & unless sex is between… Read more »
I appreciate your reply. I guess I’m just confused about your comment as a whole because there seems to be a world of difference between these two statements: “It’s our entire culture right now. To dominate to find subordinates. To consume, control, and possess rather than heal, collaborate and create. It’s in racism, homophobia, sexism, classism. We relate to each other through violence and power.” “[A]t this particular moment and in this particular time I’m exploring and experiencing work around those dynamics of control and power in institutionalized settings, in relationships and in our own personal development, so that is… Read more »
Mike, I just happened onto this blog. As a woman, I must say that my jaw dropped! 4% is NOT an inconsequential percentage! Am I safe in a room of 20 men, if one of them is a rapist? Maybe you misunderstand the violence of rape, if you offer this argument. If one in twenty people at my house are violent, I live in a house of absolute violence, unless I am absolutely protected by all, and the violent one is contained, made visible and behaviorly changed in an open manner. Your argument is dangerous, as is this culture, for… Read more »