James Fell has been there and done that. Now he’s happily married and has some advice for single guys.
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Men’s Rights Activists have invented a new part of the male anatomy. It’s called a “mangina,” and apparently you grow one any time you show respect for women.
Fine then. Want permission to access a vagina? Prepare to grow a new body part, because you need to show some respect for the female gender.
It really sucks that I have to write this stuff. I mean, I’m a fitness guy, I’m supposed to be writing about lifting heavy shit. The reality, however, is that a lot of young men get into fitness in order to improve their odds of getting sweaty and slippery with a member of the opposite sex, and the advice out there for doing so just freaking sucks.
Pick-up artistry (PUA) is a bullshit industry. It’s false promises and worthless tactics designed to separate desperate, horny young men from their money. My advice is free, take it or leave it.
My first advice is this: Whether or not you get to have sex on a regular basis does not define you as a man. Dry spells are to be expected, and that’s why God gave you a hand. There may be hope for you finding someone, and there may not. Depending on your situation, you need to face the possible reality that you are permanently screwed. And by that I mean not screwed. This isn’t anyone else’s fault. You don’t get to blame women by calling them shallow bitches or teases, and it’s not the fault of other men either. You can try to improve yourself and make yourself into someone that at least some women will desire, and maybe it will work, but maybe it won’t.
In other words, don’t hate, and don’t rape. I’ll repeat what I’ve said before: Life is not fair. Don’t punish others for your lot in life.
That’s one bummer of a disclaimer. I write this stuff because, well, I really like sex. I understand the draw, because it’s awesome. If there is anything I can do to help bring some realism to this quest for love, then I suppose it’s my duty. Again, I’m not getting paid to write this. (Please buy my not-a-relationship book so I can eat.)
If you’re serious about not just getting sex on a regular basis, but also finding love, this piece of mine, entitled How to Find (and Keep) a Girlfriend is pretty much required reading. It’s damn long, but it tells you most of what I know.
In some ways, this is Part 2 to the above link, and in others, it’s for those who think that girlfriend post is tl;dr. Still, this one is kinda TL, because popular culture has misled you about sex. A lot.
I’m not going to blow sunshine up your ass. I know that’s what you want. I know you want me to tell you there is some magical game I can bestow upon you with a few secrets that will get you awash in lady parts mere moments after you finish reading this, but I am the king of brutal honesty. So much so that the words “brutally honest” are in the subtitle of my book. This is not information that you want to hear. However, if you actually want to achieve some results, then perhaps you should suck it up and pay attention. Here we go.
1. You have unrealistic expectations
This is a nice way of saying you only chase women who are out of your league.
Part of the PUA messaging is that anyone below a “7” is not worth pursuing, like assigning a ranking system to a woman’s attractiveness is a good idea in the first place. That should be red flag #1 about these assholes.
The desire for an attractive mate is something ingrained in our genetic code, because physical attractiveness sometimes denotes health, and we want to breed with people who will provide us with healthy offspring. This is a two-way street, skewing male, of course. It may be stereotypical to say that men are more visually oriented than women, which is why a rich dude can always find a plethora of hot, young women, but observational data supports that looks are at least somewhat more important to men than they are to women. That being said, looks are still damn important to women. All else being equal, they’ll usually go for the taller, more handsome man with the better physique.
But you don’t believe this, because you’ve seen the Big Bang Theory, and Revenge of the Nerds, and Frasier, and a bunch of Seth Rogan movies. We’re lead to believe that nerdy guys will get the hot girl if we just work for it. That persistence is key and that we can wear the babes down and show them that muscular jock isn’t right for them and they should love us for our dorky ways. Read this excellent piece for a full exposition on this phenomenon.
If you’re Leonard, your chances of getting a Penny are remote unless you use your nerd-brain to patent a multi-million dollar invention. And then you got yourself a gold digger. Congratulations.
Geez, this guy is telling me to date ugly chicks. Screw that.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And beauty turns ugly real fast when everything that comes out of that person’s mouth is something that is the opposite of what you’re interested in. You can feel a lot of attraction for someone with whom you share like interests and values and sense of humor etc.
You need to ditch a lot of the thinking about how life owes you a hot girl. Life doesn’t owe you any kind of girl. Most of the people on this planet are pretty average looking, so stop thinking you won’t settle for anyone who doesn’t resemble a porn star.
Speaking of which …
2. You let porn warp your thinking
I am amazed that some young guys think life is supposed to be like a porn movie. That men have magical penises that can cause women to instantly achieve orgasm, and that the landscape is overrun with beautiful, hairless women just waiting for an excuse to drop their panties and commence copulation.
I have no issue with porn as an occasional outlet, but it’s about as far removed from sexual reality as X-Men is from genetic mutations. But it goes beyond that. Misuse of porn can have a negative effect on your brain that in turn harms your sex life. Read this piece of mine for details on that.
3. You don’t quit
This links back to the first point about having unrealistic expectations. Leonard kept chasing Penny, and now they’re engaged, and that whole “just keep chasing her and wear her down” messaging has been repeated in movie and TVs so much it makes some men think it’s actually reasonable.
It’s not reasonable. It’s stalking.
If you express interest in a woman, and that interest is not reciprocated then YOU ARE WASTING YOUR GODDAMN TIME! Not only that, you’re being a creepy douche canoe who is making her uncomfortable and word is going to get around that you’re a creepy douche canoe who makes women uncomfortable.
Look for an opening and start a conversation (more details on this in my find a girlfriend post), and be attuned to her reactions. If she is giving you the get lost vibe, then you need to get lost, perhaps reevaluate your approach, and try with someone else.
4.You’re in a hurry
PUAs are lying. You’re not getting laid tonight unless you pay for it.
Have you heard “women want to have sex just as badly as you do”? This is one of those too good to be true type of things. Within relationships this certainly does happen, but a random woman of average looks can come up to a typical guy on the street and ask if he wants sex, and most men will jump at that chance. Reverse the situation, and women will flee in the other direction.
Women want sex, but most want to feel a level of comfort with the person first. A while ago I wrote a piece about picking up women at the gym, and I interviewed real-live women for it. A common theme was that they wanted you to be a regular at the gym first. They wanted to see you there a few times before you talked to them, and then they wanted to talk to you a few times before you asked them out.
And then they’re probably going to want to go out with you for a while before getting naked with you.
No, this isn’t always the way it works. One-night stands happen. It happened to me once, about a million years ago, and it was clumsy and weird.
You need to give a woman a chance to get to know you. Slow progress is still progress, so forget timelines and a rapid release of clothing, and just go with the flow.
5.You view sex as something owed to you, or something to be taken
If that header didn’t make you cringe, there is something really wrong with you.
You aren’t owed shit. You don’t have the right to take a damn thing.
6. You don’t work to improve yourself
I’m not just talking about fitness. Self-improvement is something every human should engage in. There are things you can do look better, and smell better. There are ways to enhance your personality as well.
I used to be terrified of public speaking, but 20 years ago I was thrown into having to present for over an hour to 200 university students, and while I crapped my pants during, I walked out of there thinking “I need to get better at that” instead of “I’m never doing that again.”
You need to embrace a variety of challenges that can sculpt not just your physique, but your character and enhance who your true self is. Stop trying to be some bullshit alpha male and just do cool shit that takes work. Find worthy tasks and work at them. Be an interesting human being who isn’t afraid to try new things, including getting a hair cut, acne treatment or nicer clothes. It’s not any one thing; it’s a whole bunch of things that can slowly enhance your personality, your look and the vibe you give off over time that others find attractive.
7. You’ve never accomplished anything
People talk about confidence being sexy. News flash: confidence isn’t something that can be faked.
I’m proud of the stuff I’ve accomplished. Millions of people read my stuff each month because I worked hard. If a major magazine tells me they’re giving me the cover story, I don’t shit my pants, I get to work because I know what to do. If I need to go on national TV, I kind of freak out a little, because I haven’t done it that much, but I realize it’s all part of getting better, so I suck up my fear and go for it.
Being afraid of something, then doing it anyway — that is what builds your confidence. Taking on a tough task and through hard work getting the job done — that is what builds confidence. Do this enough times at enough different things, and you will become a more confident man in many different things.
And still, know that it can take practice in approaching women to build your confidence with that as well, but it’s good to have a base of other accomplishments to give you the knowledge that you are someone who can be successful and persevere.
In conclusion…
Don’t read that last sentence in the above paragraph the wrong way. Again, this is NOT about being persistent in chasing the wrong woman. NO STALKING!
I’m talking about persevering in finding the right one, the one who likes talking to you and doesn’t ask you to leave her alone. The one you share some interests with. The one who you enjoy spending time with and vice versa.
I know this wasn’t what you wanted to hear. Find someone in your league. Work on you. Stop worrying about looks so much. Be patient. Realize movies and TV are bullshit. Stop thinking the world owes you a porn star …
Women don’t want men who are living in such a fantasy world. Embrace reality, and you might get lucky.
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This article originally appeared on Six Pack Abs.
Photo credit: Paul Cross/flickr
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Women are often turned on by a man just being genuine. Not overly feminized, not fake and overly built, they don’t have to be suave. We usually have a pretty good radar for fake, and fake is a turn off. Strange as it may seem God put it together pretty well. Women don’t gauge men the same way men gauge women so there isn’t a lot to figure out. Listen to your gut and not so much lists of rules. You may have a problem however if you hate women. Seek help.
“I have no issue with porn as an occasional outlet”
Porn is always destructive, always wrong, always exploitive (whether the women involved realize it or not). Men who view it even occasionally, are participating in debased behavior that degrades the human mind, the human soul, and society as a whole. There is absolutely no excuse for it ever.
I agree with a lot of what you say. Very well written. But the “woman in your league” thing is what I question. Aren’t we all human beings with unique strengths and weaknesses? Regardless of what someone looks like or how we perceive they are, if we’re attracted to them, shouldn’t we go for it? I’m just all for dating women you’re attracted to.
This is very bleak man!
I don’t have un realistic expectations, i just don’t delude myself. I don’t approach some woman I’m not physically attracted to just because she is not the “hot girl” average guys cannot have. I want the whole package, everything is important…
Do whatever you want with it. I could care less.
They thought I was a spammer, and threatened to delete my post, hence this comment. If I was a spammer why did you post this ^^^^^ smh
“Don’t blame others for your lot in life? I’ll make sure that’s mentioned in my brother’s eulogy. “He couldn’t help himself, b/c he was suppose to molest his 5yr. old sister, and it was HER lot in life to be molested!!” WHAT A COP OUT BS REASON TO BE A$$HOLES TO ONE ANOTHER. It’s our lot in life, we make our life our own, our problems we create ourselves, etc. Is this your grand advice? THE problem is, sages, as yourself, whose advice he carries for others he fails to practice himself, and fails to see life not as an… Read more »
I think much of this comes down to Expectations. There is great expectations when it comes to Romance and what people want from a mate. Men have these expectations and so do Women, and then, there are the expectations of society, and what is deemed an acceptable standard. Real life is what happens when both parties find out that these expectations aren’t being met, and worse, what is expected of them. Stuff like Porn, Consumerism, and courtship have one thing in common. They are all a projection of Fantasy, and satisfying ones self. This goes for both sides. In my… Read more »
Ah, yes the Gestalt Prayer. All about expectations of others. It’s actually talking about expectations WE have FOR ourselves. Always made me wonder why the last lines are excluded from posters/plaques decoupaged with it. The Gestalt Prayer I do my thing and you do your thing. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, And you are not in this world to live up to mine. You are you, and I am I, and if by chance we find each other, it’s beautiful. “If not, it can’t be helped.” <<<<the censored line. (Fritz Perls, "Gestalt Therapy… Read more »
OP didn’t bother finding out what mangina actually means.
I liked this article quite a bit. Reading some of the comments here says that everyone has read into this a lot more than they should have.
I have quite a bit to say on it, but have to post another time( At work here).
All I can say is I agree with a lot that is said in James article and thought it was well written.
Yes, I am a guy, and I am saying that.
Angelguy
I love generalizations. They’re so fun. As much as PUA are wrong about what they preach, so too is this author wrong. The truth is, every woman is different. I’ve dated women who’ve dumped me because I wouldn’t have sex on the first date. (They were mostly Russian or near Russian, if you’re keeping track.) And yes, nobody is entitled to anything, but note this: women, in general, aren’t really very good at communicating what they want. My favorite story about this is an episode of Popeye. Popeye and Bluto want Olive Oyl to go on a date, but she… Read more »
Wth? Are you applying that Russian women are whores? I am Russian and find your comment insulting!
I like them all – and #3 where he kept chasing her until he wore her down reminded me of a movie I *thought* I would like, with a top-notch thoughtful star, and being about the mind and soul and all – “Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind”. Peeyew! )Or should I say “PUA!”?)
It was about a dumb broad who just kept stalking and pushing for a relationship for which she was grossly, egregiously unsuited. Since it’s Hollywood, of course she got it. I’m a woman, and I still call her a dumb broad.
This is so perfect, thank you for giving me something I can give my single male friends that’s real! I have tried to say these same things, but coming from a fellow man whose experienced it first hand, it’s obviously more meaningful.
I’ve done *exactly* the same thing and find men are flocking to me. I love myself and have more confidence then I’ve ever had in my life and I’m in *no rush* to meet Mr. Right. When you aren’t attached to the outcome and just do what makes you happy, you glow 🙂
While some of the things you say make sense, it’s at hard times to separate the sensibility from your anger, frustration, and bias, thus effectively rendering the entire article useless in my opinion.
Wish nerdy men would stop accepting the sophomoric attitude that jocks are magically superior and attractive to every woman out there. Maybe then instead of the entitlement and resentment they’d just look for nerdy women who have some interests in common and think Zelda and Star Wars references are a bonus in a partner. No more need to stalk and harass for attention. Oh wait, nerdy guys don’t WANT nerdy girls around they’d rather jack off to a 3d model and have fake lesbian online flirtations with other irl guys while hating on the irl girl who just led their… Read more »
Exactly. They believe all women want the jocks because even the nerdy guys want the models.
Things that turn women off?
Not brushing your teeth for days at a time.
Never flossing.
Having B.O.
Being rude to the waiter.
Acting like a spoilt child.
In the end, just what turns men off as well. We are all human. 🙂
Speak for yourself. I never claimed to be human…. : – )
wellokaythen…
James’s opinions are completely worthless, in my opinion. This is somebody talking about the world the way he wishes it would be, not the way it is. Don’t waste you time on this fella.
@Erin you said: “What’s with the put down Josh? How about engaging me in a mutually respectful conversation if you see things differently instead of taking the time to put me down instead? You don’t have to read my comments if you don’t want to. But purposely taking the time to post to everyone else that you don’t read them, and that all they are is ‘projections”, is *only* about putting me down. Lets just call a spade a spade. “There’s a difference between porn being disrespectful sometimes, or a lot of the time, and being inherently disrespectful.” Oh okay,… Read more »
With all honesty Josh, I still don’t know what your position even is on the topic. I still don’t know what case you’ve made. You’ve made *me* the topic of your position and actually haven’t expressed much of anything on the actual topic where anyone would honestly know what you truly think. The only thing that’s clear here about your position is that you don’t like me. The majority of your comments focus on your dislike for me. Is that what “rationality” means to you? “Thats the basis of her argument – projection. ” (How so?) “In fact thats all… Read more »
Well here you go again making my point for you. Projecting criticism of your argumentation as personal attacks. Projecting what you think is/isn’t my position. Projecting that I even have an argument. You are the only one getting your neck bent out of shape here.
Josh, I find you to be an insincere and purposely degrading conversationalist.
You still fail to make your position on the topic any clearer. I’ve asked you several questions to give you the oppurtunity to better explain your position and you were unable to answer even one of them. Once again, your primary focus is on me. I’m flattered, but it’s not germane to the conversation.
Finally now we’re getting somewhere. Which topic? If it was your diatribe on porn – I’ll believe that sex work (including portn) is degrading to women the day women stop accepting money to do it. If it’s this lovely article – I’ve already made my position clear on James Fell and how he opperates.
Josh, Josh… many things are degrading to people while some people still accept money do do that. Sometimes it is about the whole thing, others about some parts of it and some (mis)concepts and stereotypes being reinforced, etc….
I do not approve of many things even though some people will still do it for money, sometimes out of extreme necessity.
@Erin…you are my hero! Seriously,everything you’ve posted here I could have written myself.
Shocked, frankly.
Totally expected at least the first six of these to be “Rape”.
I’m shocked by your response Stella. What in the world does “rape” have to do with things that turn women off? Are you insinuating that rape turns men on??? Isn’t “rape” as a problem pretty universally understood? Who would even think that “rape” needs to be qualified as a “turn off”??? That’s like saying that “animal abuse” or “mentally ill” needs to be included on the list too and things that turn women off. Those are all givens! For both men and women when it comes to things that would turn each other off. Most men and most women don’t… Read more »
Look at how many mainstream porn have scenes were women are basically being raped (no, she mostly didn’t scream “rapeee!”, but she is still only being thrown there and used for her holes and not receiving any stimulation in return). No, that’s not a turn on for straight men at all.
James, would it surprise you to know that Paul Elam from A Voice For Men site feels the same way about PUAs that you do? He has also said that we need to get rid of the aspects of masculinity that are outdated and leading to our own destruction. Doesn’t sound misogynist to me.
All of this was written by Paul Elam: “You see, I find you, as a feminist, to be a loathsome, vile piece of human garbage. I find you so pernicious and repugnant that the idea of ******* your **** up gives me an erection.” ” Or, we can treat these vermin as they deserve to be treated. Well, not as they deserve, because if these people actually got what they deserved the problem would be solved . . .” _________ “That’s it. In the name of equality and fairness, I am proclaiming October to be Bash a Violent ***** Month.… Read more »
You may not like what Paul Elam has to say, but at least one of those quotes is satire. Like it or loath it was an advertising stunt for the lack of a better term. At the end of the day it got people to notice. For 30 years the MRM played the nice guy PC card – and got no where. PE outrages many, but he now runs the single biggest mens issues website. Ever. And if you want to pick needles out, feminism has a long history of wanting violence against men without even trying to frame it… Read more »
And wow I would be exhausted if I was that angry. Paul Elam must be miserable.
So you want to believe at least one the quotes is satire (where did he say that and not only after people questioned him or shit hit the fan?); by that you just admitted you actually don’t know if all of the quotes are satires but you are still undeniably cool about it. Thanks for letting us know where you stand. If that was attempted satire (it was not), he would of have failed anyway. That also proves he is not serious about men’s rights and treat it very irresponsibly. Also, getting people to notice you for your psychotic articles… Read more »
Building me into a nice straw man I see. And apparently I find misogyny funny? Oh and I’m a boy. Stop watching horse porn!
Typical response of someone who just got defeated HARD. Well, I wasn’t expecting much at all anyway.
Yeah, you do believe misogyny is all around okay if “satire” (satires are meant to be funny), even though most of it isn’t satire at all. And sure, if fully grown women are usually called girls all over your country all of the times even by men, men can also be called boys. Too juvenile for you?
Stop trying to shame my sexuality. That’s misandryyyyyyy!!!!11!!one!1
“Lets be honest, porn is no big deal to guys because in the majority of porn, men aren’t the ones that are the objects in it.” Nonsense. Have you ever thought of the men in these videos? Their faces are often not shown. Their names rarely appear in the credits. They can’t voice the pleasure they’re (supposedly) feeling. Sometimes (in POV films) you don’t see any part of their body other than their penises – they are reduced to a single body part. Nameless, faceless, voiceless – men are far more objectified in porn films than women are. If “men”… Read more »
That’s a load of crap. The mainstream porn industry is incredibly misogynist. Watch any mainstream, hetero porn video, and within five seconds, it’s obvious who’s in charge. However, that’s the mainstream. There’s plenty of porn options from an egalitarian or feminist POV. So the OP is full of shit. Only a certain kind of porn is misogynist and does any harm to women. And quite frankly, none of that stuff turns me on. And I imagine a great deal of men feel the same way as I do.
Which is it Navin, is porn inherently disrespectful or isn’t it? You above argued with me that porn couldn’t possibly be inherently disrespectful to women yet you’ve now voiced reasons you believe porn is disrespectful to men. I certianly believe that there is objectification of men in porn as well. But to say that men are more objectified in porn has me absolutely gobsmacked. Most porn is made for men by other men. Porn is run by the male heterosexual male normative fantasy. Take a look at the research done about what the most kind of porn men are looking… Read more »
“Which is it Navin, is porn inherently disrespectful or isn’t it? You above argued with me that porn couldn’t possibly be inherently disrespectful to women yet you’ve now voiced reasons you believe porn is disrespectful to men. ” There’s a difference between porn being disrespectful sometimes, or a lot of the time, and being inherently disrespectful. “existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, or attribute: an inherent distrust of strangers. = inherently. For example, the KKK is inherently bigoted as their core value is bigotry. Porn isn’t inherently degrading or objectifying in my view, it’s… Read more »
Thats the basis of her argument – projection. In fact thats all of Erins arguments. I don’t even bother to read her comments anymore.
What’s with the put down Josh? How about engaging me in a mutually respectful conversation if you see things differently instead of taking the time to put me down instead? You don’t have to read my comments if you don’t want to. But purposely taking the time to post to everyone else that you don’t read them, and that all they are is ‘projections”, is *only* about putting me down. Lets just call a spade a spade. “There’s a difference between porn being disrespectful sometimes, or a lot of the time, and being inherently disrespectful.” Oh okay, so there are… Read more »
So, to recap: Erin: Crows are black. Navin: Not all black birds are crows. Erin: I didn’t say all black birds were crows. Stop derailing the conversation. This is about crows. Navin: I didn’t say you were saying all birds were crows. This is a conversation about black birds, some of which are crows. Don’t be so narrow-minded. Erin: But, that doesn’t change the fact that crows are black. Navin: But, you can’t say all birds are like crows. Erin: I’ve seen enough crows to be very sure that crows are black. Navin: I’ve seen lots and lots of birds… Read more »
@Erin. “Oh okay, so there are times when it’s perfectly okay to be disrespectul to each other? LOL. Like it’s purely accidental when porn is disrespectful to women? And therefore it’s okay when it is?” I don’t get email notifications anymore since the comment system on this site is attrocious but I will try get to some of the points. “Guess that means I’ll no longer be hearing any conversation around the way men are protrayed in media since it’s all good and hey, sometimes it’s not cool, but sometimes it is..no more need for men to get upset about… Read more »
The first – I don’t think it’s disrespectful to men either. As I explained in my post, I’m quite comfortable with the objectification of men and women in porn.
My point was that insofar men are okay with porn it isn’t merely because women are only the ones being objectified.
The first – porn is not inherently disrespectful. I’m perfectly okay with the objectification of both men and women. I don’t regard objectification as inherently disrespectful, a point I elaborate on in the blog post I linked to earlier.
This comment was a response to the idea that men are only okay with porn because it’s women who are objectified. My point is that men are objectified in porn as well, so this can’t be the reason. There must be some other reason. The other reason – most men don’t think of porn as disrespectful at all.
My comment was perhaps confusing. I should have made the above point clearer. The fault is mine.
Would you think porn is maybe reinforcing double standards (what women see as wrong) if the standard role women and men play in standard porn were reversed? And I mean EVERYTHING? The usual pretty/handsome sexy men with older butch women? Women getting everything and men only serving? Women acting aggressively and men faking enjoying being degraded? All of that never labeled as BDSM but just regular, standard relations between males and females? Many, many videos around of butch women simulating beating and raping young men? And maybe, who knows, in a society were the gender roles were also reversed (sex… Read more »
You can already find videos of men being the subs, treated like dirt, etc. I do understand your point, diversity would be better but do remember the industry is a business and goes by what sells (or what they think sells). Alternatives need to be supported as much.
Question is, why do so many like those scenes? Is it the allure of taboo?
Don’t deconstruct entire comment. Everything goes with everything lol. I know we can find *everything*. But it’s not even in any way at all. The mainstream is all about women are holes to be used by men, men have weapons called penises who punish women for being sluts. That is exactly the mainstream – the most searched for, the most popular among men. The point is, most men are attracted to misogynistic shit. Oh choking women, slut-shaming them, making them pleasure the penis and NEVER even touching her clit to ever make her feel anything… that’s what men are searching… Read more »
Erin: [The following is my interpretation. I own up to the fact that it’s my impression and accept that I could be totally off-base. I apologize if it is overly presumptuous.] What I think I’m detecting is that you care an awful lot about what men watch while they masturbate. As a sexually active hetero man, I have some curiosity about what women think about when they masturbate and have some curiosity about their porn viewing habits, if any, but, I’m not deeply invested in the question, and I don’t devote very much thought to it. The depth of your… Read more »
Steve, what exactly is the depth of my reaction? I think I’ve been very articulate, very logical in this discussion. You make it sound as if I’m being completely unreasonable in some way. I will tell you what I’m concerned about since you didn’t see fit to ask me, simply dictate it on your own. I’m concerned with how much pornography has grown in men’s lives in the last decade. I’m concerned with how angry porn has grown toward women. It’s almost like men don’t even want women to enjoy sex anymore so much as being punished for enjoying sex… Read more »
“As a sexually active hetero man, I have some curiosity about what women think about when they masturbate and have some curiosity about their porn viewing habits, if any, but, I’m not deeply invested in the question, and I don’t devote very much thought to it.” But you maybe would if the standard porn industry were made by women for women, showing mostly young, handsome, dolled up and appealing with many times surgically modified bodies guys being submissive (many times masochist as an standard) to older women with much less appealing bodies in a dominant and not empathic position who… Read more »
“PaleKing, lets be honest, most men are not looking at “eglitariaon or femininst POV” porn. That is actually a very limited subsection of porn. I am sick and tired of us ignoring the messages we can see about men and how they feel about women through porn because of small subsets of “friendlier” porn. Why isn’t the majority of porn friendy?”
TRUE.
Why didn’t any male reply to this? I wanted to know about their thoughts on that.
Mainstream = most searched for. Most appealing to most straight men.
Right on Suz. Thank you for chiming in on the discussion.
PUAs are to men what those silly books “The Rules” and “He’s Just Not Into You” are to women. It’s all nonsense that twists up who you really want to be with the opposite sex in the name of getting a shallow relationship with the opposite sex. Honestly, too many men and women let other people and social influence affect who they want to be. I could very well get breast implants, starve myself, post pictures of myself online in sexy outfits, put on a lot of make-up and I would be flooded with attention from men. But that isn’t… Read more »
If you’re going to treat people are stand-ins for their gender, it’s no surprise that you’re confused. “Men” don’t have an opinion about porn, any more than “carpenters” or “wives” or “black folk” do. Individual men may have opinions. Men as a group do not. And neither – it may come as a shock to you – do women as a group. Some hate it; some watch it avidly. If you start thinking about “men” as a diverse group, your confusion may decline. My opinion: there is nothing inherently wrong with casual, meaningless sex. And there is nothing wrong with… Read more »
With porn being a multi-billion dollar industry that largely still today caters to men Navin, I think we can very much say that men certainly do have an opinion about porn and it’s a very popular one. Finding men that speak out against porn or don’t even look at it is actually a very rare in the face of men who like porn and defend it. Am I ignorant to the fact that some women enjoy porn? Heck no. I’m not ignorant. And neither are you. And speaking to me as if i was ignorant of this and some how… Read more »
Thing is not all TV shows are treated like they are bad to men. But porn encompasses many genres. Think of it like Sitcoms + DIY shows + cooking shows, etc all combined into one big group called Tv shows, that is how the label porn is treated. Porn itself is a hugeeeeeeeeee industry and also an amateur industry + pro industry mixed in together when people use that label. Porn isn’t at all inherently degrading, certain parts though are. Like I’d say quite a lot of pro porn has degradation in it but there are also other parts that… Read more »
Yes, I’m well aware you think amateur porn is the holy grail of respecttful and wonderful sex. However, amateur porn falls into the exact same pitfalls regular porn does, the camera work and costumes are just less fancy. That’s really all “amateur” really means. The same sex acts, the same basic underlining equation still exist in amateur porn. Which is: It’s all about making men happy. Still young, white, women dominate amateur porn. Still young, white women are shown trying their best to please men. Amateur flim work doesn’t even really mean that the people in it are truly amateur.… Read more »
Just curious if either of you have a working definition of “pornography,” as distinct from “erotica” or other”sexually explicit material”? I think part of the disagreement here is that there are two people with quite different definitions of porn. In some forms of feminism, porn is by definition degrading, so there is no porn that is not degrading, and if it’s degrading then it’s porn. In this sense, porn is degrading the same way that crows are black. It just is by definition. (That strikes me as somewhat circular reasoning. Porn is degrading because degrading is what makes it porn.)… Read more »
I do not have a working definition of porn vs erotica vs other “sexually explicit material. I don’t think most men are looking at “erotica”. I don’t even know what “erotica” vs “porn is. But I think most men are mostly looking at male normative heterosexual porn. Which doesn’t exactly prove to be all that kind to women ironically. I do think porn can be just as degrading as a rap video or regular music video. I also think that women are degraded in porn and entertainment in many more subtle ways then the obvious ones. Although in the past… Read more »
Erin writes: “I do not have a working definition of porn vs erotica vs other “sexually explicit material. I don’t think most men are looking at “erotica”. I don’t even know what “erotica” vs “porn is.” Okay, then I’d be happy to promise you I will never watch a film or video that you find offensive or degrading to women. But first you’ll need to give me a list of pre-approved scenarios that I can watch without offending you. I have found many R-rated films quite arousing, so I’m afraid I’m going to need some pretty specific guidelines to make… Read more »
Wellokaythen, lets be honest. Most men who enjoy porn don’t truly care what women themselves think of the way women are represented in porn. It ususally comes down to a disagreement about a man’s right to his fantasies over any conversation about the respresentation of women in male dominated media. (As you basically pointed out when you attempted to make it seem like a woman is asking too much of men to take a serious hard look at how their fantasties very well may be disrespecting or objectifying the objects of their “affection”. Believe me, I get it. You’re fantasies… Read more »
I admit that my comment was unreasonably snarky. I regret that. I wished – as soon as I hit “post” – that I could edit out the first and last sentences but alas, too late. I shall try to be more civil from here on. I withdraw any accusations of ignorance. To the matter at hand – the vast majority of men (rightly or wrongly) do not see porn as disrespectful. This is how they can honestly claim to respect women and watch porn as well. Furthermore, watching porn that does explicitly degrade women doesn’t cause you to disrespect women… Read more »
Navin, I don’t agree with you at all that the “vast majority of men” do not see porn as disrespectful. I think a lot of men do see it as disrespectful. But their own lusts. desires and fantasies trump any concept of an ethical debate surrounding porn. I know a lot of men that would be horrified if their daughter ended up in porn. Not because she was having sex but because she would be in an industry that has shown an amazing lack of regard for the female gender. And I actually think that’s something most men do inherently… Read more »
“I think a lot of men do see it as disrespectful. But their own lusts. desires and fantasies trump any concept of an ethical debate surrounding porn”
If you and other women really want to have an ETHICAL debate about porn with other people, make sure you’re all not masquerading your distaste of it as an ethical position, throwing around terms like “objectification”, “degrade” and “disrespect” as nebulous concepts, or disrespecting men by stating they’re only defending it because they’re men.
“Furthermore, watching porn that does explicitly degrade women doesn’t cause you to disrespect women any more than watching Rocky makes you punch men.” Porn is about a very internal, deep urge – sex. When you watch porn you usually watch what intrinsically turns you on and that is the big, undeniable difference. You can watch “regular” movies about anything and everyone, if anything you will experience a bit of emotional connection. But when it comes to porn, it is undeniable – if what you watch turns you on, what you watch is part of your internal inclination. In fact, watching… Read more »
Well said Erin, on both counts!
Hi Erin
I have not yet read Gale Dines
But it is my impression Erin that this professor of Sociology supports your views, based on research .
http://bergenbibliotek.no/kalender/who-wants-to-be-a-porn-star-gail-dines-i-regi-av-stopp-pornokulturen-bergen
Erin, you talk about objectification as though it’s inherently a bad thing. What you’re not understanding though is the concept of contextual compartmentalisation, that porn is designed to fulfil a specific function, and so the women acting in the pornography narratives are look at in a certain context such as by their looks, and the traits that define their physicality or demeanour. Just like when a group of guys sitting at a table and judge women walking by, labelling them as 5s or 8s, there’s an implied context there and that is women’s looks. However, just because one group of… Read more »
Mangina is a term used to describe a man who panders to women, at the EXPENSE of his own gender, etc. It’s someone who will support misandry from women whilst brown-nosing in an attempt to seek attention and validation from these individual women. Eg, the super extreme of this would be a man who is ok with locking up ALL men to make women feel safer. In online debates it’s meant to be for the men who defend women to the point of being a white knight whilst simultaneously accepting any bigotry n hatred of men from those women. With… Read more »
There are also “Uncle Tims” like Dr Phil who throw other men under the bus for female approval, or in his case for ratings. In one of his shows he actually told a man he should pay support for a child that was not even his. What else would you call it?
I wouldn’t use the Uncle Tim line as it sounds like it’s appropriating the term from the African American history. It’s pretty easy to piss people off so choosing a word/wording that isn’t used by other groups whom are more oppressed is vital.
The term was used by psychologist Helen Smith in her book Men On Strike.
hi Archy, I have come across these sorts of men when trying to bring up issues that I have learned about on the GMP in mainstream forums. They felt the need to protect the whole of womankind from me to such a degree that my belonging to the female sex was questioned. Not just questioned, on the Guardian (a formerly intellectual British newspaper, now it just panders to the mainstream) a guy keeps trolling me with comments like: “Hey fella, at it again?”, “Karen/Graham is a frustrated man with a fake profile”. Some women have now joined him but it… Read more »
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I agree that the term gets a lot of people bent out of shape. No doubt that is the point though. I won’t condone the use of the word but it is a sad sign of the times, with so many horrible things to call people, that anyone will run crying the moment they feel insulted by being call a name. I mean slurs are so diverse, overused and incorrectly used (if its possible in a PC world to use them correctly) that they really carry little weight. Unless you are 5. Sure if they have been wrongly labeled something… Read more »
Mangina is how many gay dudes I know describe their butt holes. As in, it’s their “male vagina”… that they use for penetration… you know. Too bad straight men are now using it for their own shitty shit. “Mangina is a term used to describe a man who panders to women, at the EXPENSE of his own gender, etc. It’s someone who will support misandry from women whilst brown-nosing in an attempt to seek attention and validation from these individual women.” I have been called a “mangina” by American males for not hating women. Not hating women is something bad… Read more »
LOVED IT. What a great article!
“Fine then. Want permission to access a vagina? Prepare to grow a new body part, because you need to show some respect for the female gender.” As soon as you typed the words “access a vagina” your lack of respect for women was evident.
James fell is a PUA who hides behind trashing PUAs. Simple as that
I had the same feeling, Pam. I didn’t like the entry, skimmed over the rest and didn’t feel respected as a women and thought I’d spare myself the rage before bedtime.
Great article, great advice