Interview transcript provided by YouTube, edited by The Good Men Project:
Timothy Wenger: Welcome, everybody. Timothy Wenger here from The Man Effect. Looking forward to introducing you to my friend Mike—Mike how do you say your last name?
Mike Povenz: “POH-VENZ” Everybody wants to put an “r” in there they want to say provenz but it’s actually Povenz.
TW: Mike Povenz. [. . .] I’m excited for your book that you’ve just released. What’s fun is, over the years, Mike and I have been able to connect and go on a journey together in writing and caring about men and trying to create content that betters this world, in our opinion, I would say. I was just excited to talk to you about this book, your journey, and just the message you’re trying to get out there, so welcome.
MP: Yeah, thanks, buddy. I’m really excited about the opportunity to talk with you but it’s been, to your point, a really fun journey. I think of all it is a journey: some parts a little more challenging than others and other parts are really exciting, right?
TW: Yeah, yeah absolutely. Let’s touch base on the overarching theme of the book. So, it’s Iron and Cotton but what’s the little subtext, and just kind of go into why you chose this topic.
MP: You know I ended up putting two [subtitles] on there. One I’m claiming it as “a field guide to marriage,” and the reason I went with that is I think in life there’s a lot of times where we need some direction. We can either have a compass or, if you are like me lived in Colorado for a little while [where] I always knew the mountains were to the west. I could see them, I knew which direction I was going. You know, out here on the east coast in Georgia, where I live now, you know there’s trees everywhere, winding roads; I can lose north, south, east, and west real fast, right. [. . .] In terms of my marriage, I can get misled and be going the wrong way. So I feel like this field guide is the way to kind of keep those mountains on your left and know that you’re heading north, and heading [in] the right direction[. . .] I’m on this journey, too, so I pieced this thing together from a lot of research over the years, talking with other men, doing my own surveys, and it just boiled down to just being some practical knowledge. So I put that as the other subtext as “practical knowledge for aspiring husbands and married men.”
It was really written for me to give to my son one day for his marriage to kind of better prepare him for the journey, and for my two future [sons-in-law] because I’ve got two daughters I thought that this would make for good required reading before they get my blessing right [. . .] Those are the tag lines, that’s kind of the direction of the book and we can get into why I put it together
TW: Yeah. What was fun is, as you were writing this book, I was going from being engaged to being married. So the manuscript is fun to go over and read and hear your perspective, [. . .] just because I find that there’s not a lot of conversation among men of the ups and downs, like honestly, of the journey of being in a long-term, committed relationship. So, I appreciate that.
MP: Very true. I find that a lot. As I was doing my research on this, one of the survey things, I asked is, “how much in-depth knowledge did you have going into marriage other than just observing what your parents did, and what questions did you ask, [what] conversations did you have?” It was a resounding “not much.” Unless you’re part of some church organization where you have to go get pre-marital counseling [. . .], very limited knowledge is being passed down from one man to another on what to expect, and where they’ve made mistakes.[. . .] I talk about [it in] my book: if you and i have decided to go on a hike together, we’d probably do a lot of research [. . .] if it was a multi-day or a week-long hike [. . .] we do a lot of homework. Marriage is a bigger journey than a hike and we do very minimal research right.
TW: Yeah. I wonder if that we’ll call it suppression of data is from the shame I feel that the Protestant culture puts around sexuality and they just ignore that topic, and so I wonder if that rolls over into relationships as well because relationships include sex, generally speaking. [. . .] I wonder if that’s a byproduct of that.
MP: I think they could definitely have an impact, I mean some of the men I’ve walked with, that’s a big topic for them is frustrations with sex, or not understanding certain mismatches of desires, or how to get that engagement more. There’s pride, right. I mean, I’m very prideful in nature and I hate to throw a bunch of men under the bus but i think just as men we can be very prideful right. [. . .] It creates an obstacle to learning if we’re not willing to have a little bit of vulnerability to ask somebody else or go research it because it says “I don’t know,” and who wants to say “I don’t know”? How uncomfortable is that?
TW: Right, yeah.
MP: [. . .] I hit on that. There’s a chapter on [it]. I actually was just talking to someone telling him about the chapter I put together on sex, [which] was probably the one I spent the most time on. It’s a big topic for men. I wanted to make sure we had a real clear kind of conversation or a realistic one. So much of what’s out there feeding our brains about sexuality is from TV, social media, porn, all that kind of stuff. It’s a mismatch with what our wives are being fed about that and how they want to be treated and the tenderness and the intimacy and the things that they desire out of that is a bit different.
(The interview continues below the video.)
TW: Very different. So, how about this: Say I’m a 20-something guy who’s just engaged and I’m thinking about when we’re gonna get married. [. . .] What’s an overview of this book and why should I take the time to read it?
MP: Yeah. First, I’d say, “congrats.” You know, we’re seeing a decline in guys even getting engaged. I will point out there’s some other research I didn’t put in this book but that I want to make sure we squash the lie that fifty percent of marriages end in divorce. That’s actually not true there’s statistical data that shows it’s closer to 25-30 percent. For those guys that don’t want to get engaged and are scared to get married because they saw their parents divorce or all they heard is “I got a 50-50 shot,” it’s not true fellas. It’s absolutely not true. It’s a bogus stat so you can look up Shaunti Feldhahn to pull that up.
I would say the overview of the book is to point out, I mean I’ve made so many of these mistakes. That’s part of why I wrote them down is like I wanted to pass them on: Picking the wrong friend groups and they ended up influencing our marriage in the wrong way. Comparing and keeping up with the Joneses and how that impacted our marriage. Sex and handling of money. [. . .]
All these big topics [. . .] To me, I feel like I’m sitting around the campfire just having a conversation with some guys having a beer saying, “Hey, you’re in your 20s, [. . .] I’m in my 40s now, have been married 20 years. [. . .] I’ve walked with other buddies I’ve pulled research on to say there’s a great journey to be had ahead but you just need to know there’s some of these obstacles that are going to make it challenging or make it great and if you can at least be aware of this stuff going into it as opposed to being in it, it’s harder to see it and realize how it’s impacting your marriage.
[That’s] the overview, it’s just a number of different topics—and I’m sure I left some out [. . .] I hit on a ton in as brief a way as possible. I know our attention spans are all short but it should make for an entertaining and easy read. [I’d like to] get your feedback on that, but I feel like it meets that need.
TW: Yeah, no. There was quite a few points that I enjoyed reading and just hearing your perspective. [. . .] I like hearing other people’s thought processes or observing them. [. . .] It was fun to (A) see you take the time to write down your thoughts and get it refined to a point where others can read it but also [(B)] to read it.
MP: you bring up a good point I did not want to be one of those books it’s like “seven ways to a healthy marriage” or “nine steps to…” that wasn’t the design of the book. It was actually just meant to be thought provoking, to create some pause and get you thinking. Here’s how I was thinking about it here’s the mistakes I made. Here’s some research. Here’s some just things to ponder on how are you going to handle this stuff and how is it impacting it so it’s not if you’re looking for that I need seven ways if you’re that regimented person’s like I need those seven answers it’s not that at all it’s right it’s a stimulation of thought and how are you gonna handle it,
TW: yeah you know that that reminds me of a conversation I was having with a friend not that long ago about how I often find people look to books for direction in life and I was explaining to him how I feel my approach is very different where I choose an objective or I have my vision for my life and then I find books and material to help me attain that goal right I love that and so I hope that those listening and who check out your book rather than looking for direction look at it as a tool to help them achieve their desired goal.
MP: 100 percent. I agree with that I mean everybody’s got these unique dynamics within themselves now you add in a marriage partner and you’ve created these unique dynamics with you and your couple now I’ll say you guys are not so unique that you couldn’t learn from other people but take what you need and take what you can and interpret it and implement it in a way that makes sense for your relationship, but don’t be so stubborn and hard-headed to think that I am so different and we are so different that I can’t use this. [. . .] That’s where that pride thing comes in. and says oh well I didn’t my parents didn’t do that we don’t need to do that well i got an example where um i know a guy that thought it was absolutely normal to go through six separations because that’s what his parents did. That’s not healthy, no. That’s there is a better version of marriage for you you just haven’t been exposed to it yet.
TW: Yeah. yeah.
MP: No, I like that. [. . .] Add it to your arsenal of things that make you a better guy, a better man, better husband, you know, right.
TW: Yeah, that’s just my thought process [. . .] I’ve always appreciated your content and I’m always down for promoting other guys who are out there trying to make this world a better place so well.
MP: Thanks, buddy. I appreciate the support, and I appreciate the time with your audience.
TW: Yeah, man. Everyone who’s watching, please, if you have any questions or comments or ideas just post them and I’ll make sure to get back to you or get you in touch with Mike.
MP: That’s great.
TW: Any last words?
MP: No. I just [. . .] wish everyone well with their marriage journey [. . .], probably the greatest, most epic journey you’ll go on with another individual in this life. I wish you the best [. . .]
TW: Yeah awesome thank you, everyone, for watching and I hope you have a good rest of your week all right thank you
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About Tim’s Guest, Mike Povenz
Mike Povenz has a passion for helping men discover the best version of themselves and for guiding them to be better husbands and fathers. He is the founder of Modern Chivalry Men an organization inspiring men to positive change and community involvement. He is also the podcast host of Iron and Cotton. Mike has served for years as a men’s group leader and is the recipient of the Life Changer Award. He lives in North Georgia with his beloved wife of 20 years. They are the proud parents of three children: Lily, Lachlan, and Breckyn, along with 3 dogs, 2 guinea pigs, 4 chickens, and 1 psychotic fish. Mike loves the outdoors, fishing, boating, skiing, cooking on cast iron, and time with family and friends.
Click for more information on Mike and his book, Iron and Cotton: A man‘s field guide to marriage,
Follow Mike Povenz on social media:
@ironandcotton for Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter
@Mikepovenz for Facebook and Instagram
@mondernchivalryen for Facebook and Instagram
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