Doctor NerdLove explains that while being physically attractive may help a guy meet women, he still doesn’t get to act like a creep.
Whenever the topic of creepy behavior comes up, you can almost certainly take it for granted that somebody is inevitably going to bring up the Tom Brady Sexual Harassment sketch from Saturday Night Live as though it were some sort of drop-the-mic debate-winning argument rather than a comedy sketch that relies on exaggeration and playing with expectations and stereotypes. One is forced to presume that people who see it as a great truth and insight into the human condition also like to gift-wrap their penises on major holidays as well.
Why does it always come up? Because people see it as validation of the idea that “only ugly people are creepy.” Which isn’t true and relies on conflating “being attractive” with “being attracted”.
The latest version of this argument came up in the comments section for “This Is Why We Can’t Have Nice Things”. From the comments:
Harris I get and agree with a lot of what you say. Men do need to be more sensitive to the dangers women face. There are steps and precautions men can take to avoid behavior that might make women uncomfortable. However skits like this one from SNL, illustrate a reality that you nearly seem to be denying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY So obviously the scenarios in the above were exaggerated, but the point they are trying to illustrate is spot on. My male friends that are considered attractive can get away with all sorts of behavior that would be labeled creepy by a less attractive man. Of course even Brad Pitt or Tom Brady can go too far, but the guys you’re responding to in the opening of this post are making a real point that you’re not giving enough credit too. I also think, you deny the large number of women who label guys creepy for trivial or absurd reasons. I remember hearing a woman in one of my classes “whisper”(not very quietly) that she found a guy who sat by himself in the back creepy because he didn’t talk to anyone. This guy didn’t look the least bit threatening, and usually had his nose buried in a book, but her friends agreed with her. You seem to write women like this off as being rare, when I see this sort of thing happen all the time, heck its happened to me. I heard you briefly acknowledge in your podcast that women like this do exist, but you almost made it sound as though they were incredibly uncommon and not worth talking about beyond a brief mention.
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Pay attention. Class is in session.
The first mistake with this idea is it comes from a place that assumes that attraction is binary; it’s either there or it’s not. It also comes from a place where a person’s boundaries are somehow universal, concrete things and should be exactly the same for any person regardless of circumstances.
Both are wrong. Attraction and comfort levels are elastic and mercurial. They can grow and they can shrink at almost any time.
Behavior is considered creepy when it makes people uncomfortable. Repeatedly pushing against somebody’s boundaries is creepy behavior; a person who ignores a woman’s discomfort or wishes and keeps pushing at her boundaries carries the implication that the he is either testing them (as per the crotch grabber in the story from ExplodedSoda) or ignoring them (in the case of UnWinona’s train harassment).
If a woman (or a man, for that matter) is attracted to someone, she is more likely to feel comfortable with them and more willing to accept certain behaviors… that is, her boundaries may be different for this person. This doesn’t mean that attraction is an all-encompassing passport to do whatever you want; just because somebody’s boundaries may be relaxed in certain areas doesn’t mean that they no longer exist. It’s very easy to shut down another person’s attraction to you in an instant, whether it’s by being an asshole, saying something rude or inconsiderate, or pushing at her boundaries.
Being conventionally attractive doesn’t magically inure you to being considered creepy. Don’t believe me? Ask Brett Farve how much being a good looking celebrity helped when he was sending his dick pics around. If Ryan Gosling happened to sit down next to UnWinona, draped his arms around her and started demanding to know what she was reading, she’s going to be equally annoyed as she was by the biker before he went nuts. If Adam Levine were to start talking about tits to Ky at the Minecraft party and showing off pictures he’ d secretly been taking of women’s breasts at the party, it’s stillgoing to be creepy as all fuck, regardless of how good he might look naked.
Nobody has ever argued that being an Adonis wasn’t an advantage, but it’s also not a prerequisite. Being attractive is about more than just looks – especially since nobody can agree what’s a universal standard of physical beauty. Folks will cheerfully tell you that Kate Upton is fat. There are plenty of people who wouldn’t fuck Megan Fox with a borrowed dick while Kim Kardashian was doing the pushing. Folks may think Brad Pitt is the bee’s knees and the badger’s nadgers, but there’re just as many people who love Joseph Gordon-Levitt for his scrawny, nerdy looks. My friend Rubio – who was on the second Paging Dr. NerdLove podcast – is short and fat. And yet the man gets ass like somebody in a car chase who plows through an ass-cart and crashes through a plate-ass window… because he knows how to be attractive.
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If you happen to be somebody’s physical type, great, you’ve got a leg up. Maybe this means she will be more comfortable with you than she would be otherwise. This doesn’t mean that anyone else approaching her is automatically going to be creepy, it just means that she may draw the line elsewhere, which is her prerogative. A woman isn’t required to maintain just one universal standard of what she considers acceptable behavior and trying to insist that she has to treat you exactly the same as she would treat Christian Bale is—once again—telling her that your right to approach her is greater than her right to decide who she wants to talk to and when.
If that seems unfair to you… well, you should stop and think of what sort of behavior you’d be willing to accept from Gabrielle Union or Jewel Staite that you wouldn’t be willing to accept from your eighth grade history teacher.
This doesn’t mean that you can’t become more attractive to her—and thus make her more comfortable with you… but if you want to have the chance to do that, you’d better not be acting like a creep.
Those girls whispering about the quiet guy in class that the commenter brings up? They’re assholes. Women who use “creep” as a way of saying “ew, how dare you think you had a chance of talking to me?” They’re assholes.
And you know what? I have no time for assholes. And neither should you.
So no I don’t consider them worth mentioning; they’re not that common to begin with and even if they were, it doesn’t change the metrics. The fact that assholes exist doesn’t mean that people aren’t allowed to be creeped out by people.
I don’t take assholes like that into consideration when I talk about avoiding creepy behavior because assholes are going to act like assholes. They would talk shit about him even if he were the very model of etiquette and manners.
So quite frankly, fuck ‘em.
Image of attractive friends courtesy of Shutterstock
This article assumes that all behavior that gets labeled as creepy is actually creepy. When it comes to groping strangers in public and showing them nude pictures, of course even attractive guys will be considered creepy along with that ugly ones. But when it comes to just walking up to a girl and talking to them? The attractive guy will never be called creepy just for doing that, but for the ugly guy it remains a very likely possibly. Hell, the article basically admits there isn’t a binary scale for attractiveness, and if a woman finds you attractive (like, say,… Read more »
Today’s takeaway: body language and communication is rocket science for many, and the incapable will often choose not to educate themselves.
I think a bit problem is that people TRY to educate themselves, and just get told it’s about “social awareness”, and then are told it comes down to experience and intuition when they ask how to do that. You can’t educate your way into having experience and good intuition. DNL does a better job of breaking it down than most, but the bottom line is that there’s really not a ton of amazing answers to people choosing to educate themselves. And hell, those who do try to educate themselves, the PUAs? They’re despised by mainstream culture. Despite so many criticizing… Read more »
I guess everyone has to find a balance between maintaining their genuine “self” and having self awareness and social respect. It’s not going to be cut and dry across the board, the human population has a vast variation of standards and preferences.
And, regarding “artists” and sketching in public places… 🙂
http://www.twogag.com/archives/2323
I always become annoyed when people say that alot of guys just can’t act natural. A man has to: Lead. Even if she approached first. He have to make his case(who he is, what he wants, etc) He have to ask what her case is (who she is and what she wants) He has to interpret her answers. All the responsibility falls on the man. If he wanted a ONS and wherent clear of that: his fault. She never has to ask what he whants. If he wanted a relationship(casual or other more serious) and changed his mind later. His… Read more »
So how about an straight-forward, non-hand-waving, specific description of how to “be attractive”?
Also, is he well off? Middle class, upper middle? Would a low income earner have the same chance?
Like yourself. Authentically like others. Humor is useful. But not requires. Be interested in the world. Positivity and excitement about life is huge. Bitterness and anger at life is really it attractive. That all seems vague yes? Well I suppose it is but the people I adore all have those qualities. Frankly is getting tail is the only goal I don’t know what to tell u
Fhe question is, to me, are people to be used in an utilitarian way, as means to an end or are they complementary parts of your whole life, playmates and collaborators. If you agree with the former then I suppose looking for a formula to get what you want (not you in particular) makes sense.
It’s a question of how you want to be in the world. We live in a consumptive culture that does treat people like tools. I reject that. I always have though.
People that I have known to use the word creep have usually been socially lacking. Most people do not seem to have skills per se. Skills to me means doing, creating. I think that the average person are skilled in fitting in. Which have some soical element. But social to me means creating interactions or understanding other people. i’ve seen little of that around me. There is an illusion of those things. Mostly created by everybody conforming to a set of social unsaid standards. But as soon as we go outside of that standard most people can’t seem to deal… Read more »
Let’s see if maybe I can bridge some of the divide here. There are some behaviors that are pretty much inherently creepy in the sense of aggressively discomforting or even threatening other people. It’s hard to imagine anyone welcoming such behavior in 99% of the cases. There are other behaviors that are entirely situational and subjective as to whether they are “creepy.” It depends on the context, and it depends on the internal things going on in the person who may or may not feel “creeped out.” (Like the aforementioned gift-wrapping your penis for a Christmas present — not recommended… Read more »
I nominate this for Comment of the Day!
Great response, very well-said. Good job gap-bridging, wellokaythen. 🙂
I nominate this for Comment of the Day!
Well said, wellokaythen. A very levelheaded way to look at this issue.
“Creepy Old Guy Tricks”
“I notice today, my ability to hear is inversely proportionate to the expanse of the cashier‘s cleavage. I guess I’m not looking at her lips. …..”
http://standup2p.wordpress.com/2012/06/26/creepy-old-guy/
KKZ, excellent response. There really is not much to say. But I guess you make a good point that it is sort of part of a womans evolutionary dna to be cautious of men. I guess the only response as a man I can point out is many men get mixed messages. If a man demonstrably tries to appear to aggressive with women, I can acknowledge where he can be labeled a creep. However, if a man decides to be celibate, or not to be so passive with a woman inasmuch as their are a few men who have little… Read more »
Not evolutionary DNA in a literal sense – I was referring more to how we’ve been conditioned by society to be cautious. The “Never walk in a dark parking lot alone,” “If you’re meeting a guy you don’t know, do it in as public a place as you can,” “Don’t leave yourself vulnerable to atack” sort of mentality that women, at least in my generation, were raised on. (Side note: Funny that I never noticed growing up how much I was spoon-fed these messages until I came to a site like GMP and came to question those messages for the… Read more »
Good stuff again KKZ. Yes I see where I was referring to two extreme sides of the spectrum in terms of the aggressive man and the celibate man. However, as a single male I would surmise it is better to err on the side of the “celibate” or passive side. Better to be labeled sort of weird for being passive or indifferent as opposed to “creepy” or too aggressive which could cause a woman to feel she is in some type of danger. So I would say for single men in the dating world, it is better to err on… Read more »
And then you get men who are passive, complaining that women just pass them over. As you said before, damned if you do, damned if you don’t. No one said dating was easy, each person must find the balance that works for them and that attracts the kind of person they want to be with. I still disagree that there are many het women who actively resent gay men. It gets joked about a lot, like in the “such a waste” comment, but I’ve never heard a woman earnestly express actual resentment, or that she feels threatened because there’s a… Read more »
KKZ I do not agree with you regarding gay women and men being resentful at them. In fact there is a whole genre of “lesbian porn” that is very popular amongst het men. In fact a lot of men get turned on by watching 2 women intimate and also think it’s sort of cool when they meet a lesbian. Now much like as you stated women may feel disappointed when handsome guy is gay- some men may feel disappointed as well if a women is gay. But I think most men get turned on and actually think its cool when… Read more »
Just realized how potentially misandrist that last paragraph is – it makes a lot of generalized assumptions about hetero men and how they feel about being attractive to women. Sorry if I overstepped or rubbed anyone the wrong way.
I liked hanging with gay women, back in the dawn of time, when I was looking to pick up women.
1- The chances of someone on the team getting it wet were greatly increased.
2- Het Women tended to get aggressively hetero after being hit on by a gay woman- which greatly increased my traction….
3- You want some good sex tips; women who have the equipment, in which I was interested, and experience of giving & getting are pretty good sources.
But that was bar culture; when cocaine wasn’t addictive.
I agree with KKZ that I don’t see a lot of resentment either from het women of gay men (unless you’re against homosexuality in general). Mostly disappointment, sometimes made easier with jokes (the ‘what a waste’ example). The only time I could see real resentment is if a gay man was with a woman or led her on. Sometimes, he just isn’t sure of his sexuality yet, and that’s understandable. But if he’s using her as a front, she deserves an apology.
Not at all, KKZ! In this week’s Savage Love column, Dan mentioned that in his younger days, during a particularly long dry-spell, out of desperation he would take young women up on their offers of blowjobs, but lay back and pretend that it was Bo Duke blowing him. Yeah, but that could just be something about Dan that made women approach him with offers of sex acts, right? By some quirk of the universe, I have a good friend and a lot of acquaintances who are gay men. I’ve seen it first-hand– there are lots of straight women interested in… Read more »
Fair point – I guess I just haven’t encountered those kinds of women much in my own life, so it seems to me that if those women exist, they must be in the minority. I could be wrong, though!
Oh, I’m sure that they are a tiny minority, but there are enough that I’ve noticed them.
@KKZ
“Tongue-in-cheek, I add, a heterosexual woman is only resentful of a gay dude not being into her if said gay dude is remarkably sexy, or if said het woman is particularly egotistical.”
It always comes down to how the woman perceives the man. She thinks she is always entitled to have it her way. Regardless.
Thanks KKZ for a terrific comment. I was just talking to my friend about this. He is a very serious Buddhist and is celibate. However he even mentioned to me when he has had business lunches with women or business conferences( He works in sales), he has had vibes from women that were possibly thinking he wanted to date them-very similar to your story with that older man. My friend and I both agreed that a lot of women even in a business setting are afraid that men are trying to date them-even if that is not the intention of… Read more »
Thanks, Cleopas. I agree, more empathy and compassion (and forgiveness!) between genders is needed. It is sad that people drop out of the dating game altogether or lash out in bitterness because of poor inter-gender communication. Women need to compassionately understand that the word creep (and variations thereof) carries a heavy and hurtful meaning for many (most?) men. While it does have a useful purpose (there ARE creepy men out there and we need a word for them), it’s not a word that should be wielded carelessly or used as a weapon. And men need to compassionately understand that women… Read more »
I wrote a response to you KKZ, check this link out it may be sort of related to this topic.
http://amangoinghisownway2112.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/what-women-want/
Your post is interesting but I don’t agree that women resent gay men for being gay. Like a lot of women, I like gay men. I think it’s kind of fun to interact with a guy who is undeniably masculine yet able to talk and relate to me like women talk and relate to each other. I enjoy having a male friend without any fear that he will develop sexual feelings for me or make things awkward by asking me out. Gay men can be attractive physically but I don’t fall for men based solely on their looks. There has… Read more »
@Sarah Radford
“undeniably masculine”
I truly scoff at this notion in a gay man. How do you think a gay man is undeniably masculine?
Please explain.
Most gay men who I’ve known are into being men. They love being men, even if they also happen to like fashion and Barbara Streisand. (Though of course there are also gay men who hate Barbara Streisand and who have no fashion sense at all. Stereotypes.) anyway, people who don’t actually know gay men get confused about this. They think all gay men want to be women. No, that’s being transgendered. Which is different. (Though there are some gay men who are transgendered or who are cross dressers or whatever, but not all by any means.). I’m not pretending to… Read more »
Jules not to digress, but I think Sarah made an interesting point by alluding to gay men as “undeniably masculine” . As a het man I always had the perception that all gay men were feminine in their disposition.. However, I have since come across many gay men who were very masculine and “straight looking bodybuilder types” and some that were athletes. I believe there is an article on this very site a gay football player. Not to be tongue in cheek, but some time ago a gay disco band The Village people had 2 songs pertaining to gay masculine… Read more »
One of the Flight 93 heroes, Mark Bingham, was an athletic gay man from San Francisco. He was quite a jock from all the descriptions I’ve read of him. Very good looking, too.
@KKZ… “It is sad that people drop out of the dating game altogether or lash out in bitterness because of poor inter-gender communication.” It is NOT poor communication KKZ. It is women unilaterally treating a men poorly. Saying it is poor communication is like saying the reason a woman is raped is due to poor communication with her rapist. Crazy. These men are opting out and giving up because they see no hope. That is what a human being does when his or her perceived circumstance becomes hopeless. They surrender. Also, why is it only like this in America? Why… Read more »
@KKZ IT IS ALL IN YOUR HEAD!!! “And men need to compassionately understand that women are sensitive to perceived sexual interest and have been conditioned to be cautious and protect themselves against men.” If women do not even want to talk to “strange” men, just how is that a “perceived sexual interest”? Women do online dating. Right? All the men are strangers. Right? So, when you set up a date, you are agreeing to talk to a “strange” man. Clearly, you did not know the man. Maybe technology and the lost art of conversation is the big problem. People just… Read more »
“He is a very serious Buddhist and is celibate.”
That would explain the seriousness.
I’ve never understood celibate people. The voluntary types. What’s that all about?
Elissa he is celibate for spiritual reasons. I had asked him about it when he first told me he was voluntarily celibate and he said he wanted to take a break from sex and dating to focus on hobbies and other pursuits as well. I have met a few men who were voluntarily celibate. I sort of questioned it myself but inasmuch as many men are always looking to “get laid” or be on the prowl, its sort of refreshing to now some men are not lie that and do not always need sex or to date. Heck, maybe some… Read more »
Thanks cleopas – I was thinking more along the lines of a political celibacy – but maybe I’m reading too much into that link you posted. Do you believe that women are fearful of the trend of male political celibacy?
@elissa- pls what is political celibacy?
I’ll ask the questions here J.A. -:)
Maybe something along these lines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_lesbianism
Oh I thought we had kicked that one to the curb along with “gay men are caused by overbearing mommies”. I do remember, fondly, gay until graduation feminism & that groovy kabuki makeup they wore- what a hoot. Or maybe not, a lot of it looked like aggressive women topping and turning out confused girls. 15 years ago it was “I became vegan to get laid by sensitive chicks; now it’s mostly about pissing people off.” So what are we saying now- “celibacy is a great way to get laid”? And please I’m not anti- Buddhist, Thailand is full Buddhists… Read more »
Hi Elissa, I do not understand what you mean by “political celibacy”? I have never heard or encountered a man in my life who is “politically celibate”. I just know there a men out there who either become celibate, lets say for spiritual reasons http://www.brahmacarya.info/2010/02/retention-of-semen-2/ Also there are some single men who for whatever reason take a break temporarily or decide not to date anymore. I know some take a break, like a friend of mine, for other pursuits such as hobbies. Some men (as well as some women) who have been hurt or “burned” in the dating scene decide… Read more »
Elissa, I pondered a bit what you might have meant by men becoming “politically celibate”. There is an emerging movement within the greater Mens Movement called “Men Going Their Own Way” (MGTOW) http://www.mgtowforums.com/. These are men who believe in some type of Gender Separatism much like I believe there was a lesbian separatist group within feminism. The only difference is the MGTOW movement is composed predominately of straight men. These are men who in my opinion may have not had much success in the dating world with women and/or have been hurt badly by various women in their life, or… Read more »
I’ve known a few guys that have done the whole MGTOW, usually it’s from being used, fucked around, or had a string of women who would be hot n cold, they’d get the guy interested then cut off the intimacy, really play around with that whole friend/lover boundary and cause major confusion with mixed signals. One had a girl messaging him the colour of her panties at midnight, yet she swears she didn’t know that was flirting….*eyeroll*. Basically they get led on, get sick of being played, usually meet women who are after attention or have “issues” and lose faith… Read more »
Good Point on women need to start asking men out. One thing that irks me about feminists is on one hand they desire equality in for women in all areas such as the business and political world. On the otherhand these same feminists still want to retain traditional gender roles in the dating world. This includes men asking the woman out and men initially risking rejection. If you want equality in the legal world you need equality in the dating world. I wish more women would ask men out. I think it is sexy and attractive when I am asked… Read more »
I would like to know what women out there aren’t asking men out. I am not being facetious. I say this because the particular subsets of women I’ve known throughout my life have indeed asked men out. I have. I even know a woman who asked her husband to marry her. In fact, I had a conversation yesterday with a woman confronting her on the “I’m gonna always wait for the man to ask me out.” line. She wanted a man who was as assertive as she was. If he asked her out first then she figured he’d be that… Read more »
Realy Julie. Answer honestly, in a social setting who is approaching the most? Also, I love that you girls are approaching. I have seen more and more of that. But as I said on a different post. Even if the girl approach. The guy always seems to have to lead. A man has to: Lead. Even if she approached first. He have to make his case(who he is, what he wants, etc) He have to ask what her case is (who she is and what she wants) He has to interpret her answers. I think that approaching is a skill… Read more »
In my college community in the late 80’s (theater crowd, filled with straights but also LGBT) I saw a lot of women pursuing men and also women. In my mid-90’s community same thing. Now, this wasn’t a traditional crowd. There were artists, queer folk, feminists, outsiders in a lot of ways already willing to think and act outside the “norm”. Totally a non traditional non corporate fraternity/sorority type setting or people. Maybe that’s the difference. I saw a lot of women asking men out, making passes at men. I’m happy to concede it’s a subset of the population, but it… Read more »
The difference is that both men and women (wrongly) feel that it is the mens resposibility to make everybody safe and comfortable. Take this creep discussion. Why arent men that are uncomfortable callen tha women for creeps? Because the men will blame themselves for their own feelings. Normally a woman hearing that a man are uncomfortable around her she womt wonder if she did something wrong. She will leave him alone because he “can’t handle her” or becuse he “needs to become more secure in himself”. Its great that you and other women around you are asking men out. But… Read more »
I don’t mind approaching. I mean, at least I don’t have to spend all summer building an elaborate home, obsessively decorating it with treasures and food and then wait patiently for a female to happen by, wondering if it will meet with her approval.
ha ha – being a bower bird is no picnic!
Lol, these days since women can earn their own keep no you don’t but 50 years ago men that didn’t earn much weren’t really the pick of the litter.
@ Julie- Amen,I’m no catch & can report that in the 70s women on both coasts, NE, FL and the Rockies were asking men out & picking them up too.
I think there has been some serious culture shifts between the mid 70’s and 80’s into the 90’s. Seattle in the mid 90’s was FILLED with women (in my community at least) asking men out. Maybe between the economy, the war and the pushback of right wing politics, people are reverting to traditional roles? Or maybe it has to do with the communities in general.
I think both population density and gender ratio make a difference in how men and women interact. Where I went to school as an undergraduate in the late ’70s/early ’80s, men outnumbered women by a 5-3 ratio, and the women seemed to me to be rather cool, distant and ‘guarded’. Where I went to grad school a decade later, women slightly outnumbered me, and it seemed to me women tended to be a lot more outgoing toward me. In general, my experience has been that I have been asked out by women who already knew me, but have almost never… Read more »
@Julie..
I think most women do not ask men out. Yes, some of the younger/young women do. Most women simply do not do it. Sorry.
There is a Huff Post blogger, Melanie Robinson who has been doing this one year chronology of her dating experiences in NYC. See the link below,
http://1yearofonlinedatingat50.com/
Actually, it is quite interesting and funny.
She is adamant about two things: One, she does not call men, ever. Second, she does not ask men out.
I think she is representative of most women, especially women in their 40s and 50s.
What I find hot and what other women find hot in another woman could be totally different. I’ve had the accusations of “Men only want hot chicks” and yet that doesn’t ring true for many I know. I see heaps of guys with women I personally don’t find attractive, and heaps with women I do find attractive. I think there is a lot of randomness in attraction…One girl I think is hot, was told by another guy she is ugly (which I hate that guy for!)
@Nick Pavlidis – if you are saying that I’ve set up a false dilemma, then you are saying that if a man is not physically attracted to me, I can change his mind somehow by my personality or whatever. That has just NEVER worked in my 45 years on this planet. I’m not saying it couldn’t work, just that it seems highly unlikely based on my experience. Men don’t get involved with women who they don’t find physically attractive. I think I am a warm, friendly, smart and engaging person but that won’t get me anywhere with a man unless… Read more »
if you are saying that I’ve set up a false dilemma, then you are saying that if a man is not physically attracted to me, I can change his mind somehow by my personality or whatever. No, that’s not it at all. Let’s go back to what you wrote. If he’s attracted to me, he will do something. If he hasn’t done anything, he’s not attracted and there is nothing I can do to change how he feels. Okay, I used to teach formal logic so bear with me here a bit. Your first proposition is “If he is attracted… Read more »
@Nick Pavlidis, believe me – I flirt. I send out signals. I initiate conversations. I just never say “would you like to go on a date?” I stop short of that. The woman in your example was very attractive. Of course you will be thrilled when she made the first move. Same with Joanna’s example about asking out her future husband. Joanna is a young, attractive blond. So it works for them because guys will be happy to get the attention. Women like me don’t have the luxury of knowing that the majority of men we meet will think we… Read more »
@Nick Pavlidis, believe me – I flirt. I send out signals. I initiate conversations. I just never say “would you like to go on a date?” I stop short of that. That sounds a bit less passive than in your previous response. Before it sounded like you were just sitting pretty waiting for someone to notice you and initiate a conversation. The woman in your example was very attractive. Of course you will be thrilled when she made the first move. Who says I was thrilled? I was oblivious. And I’ve never been intimidated or shy around attractive women. I… Read more »
I don’t ask men out. I admit it. I never do it. If I like a guy, I try to send him signals that I’m interested but I don’t go any farther than that. I’m not a super attractive woman and I’ve learned over the years that either a man is sufficiently attracted to me to want to get to know me better, or he isn’t. If he’s attracted to me, he will do something. If he hasn’t done anything, he’s not attracted and there is nothing I can do to change how he feels. So asking him out would… Read more »
Then you are cutting yourself off from a lot of great opportunities as perhaps some of these men are shy and wait for ladies to make the move. He (whoever he is) might be very attracted to you and waiting. But that’s simply my opinion.
@Sarah Radford.. “They dont mean that in general they want all different kinds of women, including older women, uglier women, fatter women etc. to ask them out. Sorry if I sound kind of cynical but that’s been my experience, unfortunately.” I certainly understand how you feel. I really do not go after the “hot” women. I love the “underdog!” I see most women as attractive. Today when I went to the gym to work out, I noticed a woman glancing at me. She actually was checking me out when I came in the door. She was on the treadmill. She… Read more »
I don’t ask men out. I admit it. I never do it. If I like a guy, I try to send him signals that I’m interested but I don’t go any farther than that. Likely to protect yourself from rejection. I don’t blame you, rejection sucks. I’m not a super attractive woman and I’ve learned over the years that either a man is sufficiently attracted to me to want to get to know me better, or he isn’t. If he’s attracted to me, he will do something. If he hasn’t done anything, he’s not attracted and there is nothing I… Read more »
Everyone should be asking out the people they like. It’s stupid that there are people who think men should be the only ones asking people out. I wouldn’t be married to Ivan if I never asked a man out. Ivan lurked around my store for weeks and weeks and weeks and finally I asked for his number. Same with another ex of mine that I really loved. And yes, I was rejected more than a few times hitting on or asking out guys. Aaron Eckhart (the actor) rejected me once. It still stings! Aaron Eckhart! Dreamy. Not so into the… Read more »
How could you ever be into Aaron Eckhart? Did you not see In the Company of Men? How could you wake up next to him and not wonder if you were being played? Dodged a bullet, I say. 🙂
I don’t really mind women of all attraction levels (personality included) asking me out, it’s just I need to learn how to reject them nicely if it happens. I really hate hurting feelings unless the person is a real C&*% (Aussie version of word, non-gendered, an asshole). There are benefits to being approached that you don’t get as having to approach…
@cleopas… ” On the otherhand these same feminists still want to retain traditional gender roles in the dating world.” Yes, I have observed the same. I guess somethings just take time. It really does seem many women wish to retain the elements that give them power while demanding (rightfully so I might add) full equality other areas. For example, most women practice hypergamy, even when not needed. Men do not nor have they in any big way. When I hear educated professional women lamenting over the paucity of available men, I know it is because they are seeking a man… Read more »
First, can either of you cite a feminist you know in REAL life who insists on retaining traditional gender roles in dating? I’m being serious. I have a degree in Women’s Studies and know a LOT of feminists, I was also raised by a feminist who was friends with a lot of feminists. And I don’t know any that wish dating could remain traditional. And really? Again with the hypergamy? You and I have talked about this – correlation, not causation. PS – Don Imus is a misogynistic slime bag pig, and well-documented. Please don’t base your ideas about women… Read more »
@Joanna…… “PS – Don Imus is a misogynistic slime bag pig, and well-documented. Please don’t base your ideas about women upon him and his shows and what he says about women… Though I’m starting to understand why you trash-talk feminists.” You see, this is why I cannot engage in any rational discourse with you. I said zippy about Don Imus. I was referring to one of his largely female staffers Joanna. Do you know most of the people behind the scenes are women and/or minorities? He does have a wife who is Jewish. Did you know this Joanna? I do… Read more »
First, I don’t give two craps about Spitzer, but I don’t think he ever publicly called educated, athletic and respectable young ladies “Nappy Headed Hos” like Imus did.
Last, you actually did say “feminists” when talking about women who want traditional dating roles. Go read your own words.
I think it’s great you donate to a shelter. I don’t think you hate women, I think you hate feminists.
Wait, I thought that hypergamy was found to be limited to caste societies; even though western women talk about it, on the whole they don’t marry up (or down, for that matter).
As for traditional dating, I know a flesh-and-blood feminist who prefers traditional gender roles in dating. Yes, I’ve called her out on it. If she persists with the “guy does the asking and paying” attitude I’m going to revoke her feminist card.
btw, I should clarify that I know a feminist like this. As in one. Singular. Make of that what you will.
Just a side note Joanna, do your feminist friends have blogs or use online social media, etc much? Would they be ones to comment on these types of sites? Reason I ask is curiosity on if a heap of feminists aren’t actually using online debates and so many of us might only be exposed to a tiny fraction of feminists.
@Joanna… I do not hate feminists Joanna. I do not hate women. I hate no one! Just because a person is critical of a thing does not mean he or she hates it! Feminism to me is a very good thing for women, men and our country. I have never studied feminism or read any feminists. I did real Jane Fonda’s book Prime Time. It was a great read. However, I really do not know if she is a feminist. Last year I read Arianna Huffington’s, Third World America. Great book. Great woman. I happen to agree with most of… Read more »
Some people practice self-restraint as part of their kinky side. Paradoxically, there can be something kinky about being celibate. Or if not kinky a kind of self-satisfaction in what they are not doing. Celibacy is not necessarily the absence of all traces of sexuality. Technically, it could just mean not engaging in particular physical behavior.
@cleopas…
Why do you keep insisting that men need to show more empathy and sympathy? Look at your friend. What did he ever do to a woman to be driven to involuntary celibacy?
NOTHING!
But then you have the very same women who do not mind if some jackass whom they are attracted approach them. This is the reality of the real world.
Not that I agree with them fully, but there is a reason there are a lot of “bitter MRA blogs”. Not all modern women are great and it is possible to get a string of bad women in your life who are quite influential like a girlfriend, a good friend that abuses your trust, etc. You can find the same shit on the female side of the fence, I’m sure many women go through times of bad men, just as the comments on the porn thread seem to indicate about women seeing men quite negatively. Maybe these days people as… Read more »
Nerdlove O”Malley is kinda taking the easy way out on this one. The SNL sketch was a parody, yes, but to treat it as not raising a valid point simply by over-literalizing it–“Physical attractiveness does not excuse creepiness”–is to miss the point. The point of the sketch was that the exact same behavior will be interpreted two different ways depending on whether the women enjoyed it. It’s not solely about physical attractiveness, as in the sketch; it’s about whether the recipient of the behavior was attracted. In other words, the exact same behaviors will be called “creepy harassment” or “flirting”… Read more »
Sorry, it really isn’t. If a woman comes up to you at a club and says “buy me a drink” you will react very differently if you think she’s hot and might get with you than if you think she’s not or she won’t. (I just picked a random overbearing example) Women have that same right. At any point when being hit on, first to last, a woman has the same right a man does: to stop being interested. To decide to leave. To decide to disengage. You are not owed anything by people you choose to hit on. (I… Read more »
Hit on hot girls/guys if you want, even if you aren’t conventionally attractive. Give it a chance, just don’t expect ANYTHING. Even hot people shouldn’t EXPECT anything.
What are your thoughts on women who call a guy creepy based on his looks alone? Where he hasn’t actually had time to cross boundaries, and is probably doing something else?
“based on looks alone”=C- creature.
I’ve honestly never thought a man was creepy just based on his looks, so I can’t speak to that one. I don’t understand it.
And I wasn’t saying anyone shouldn’t hit on whoever they want to. I was addressing the anger that some men feel justified in when women with whom they have nothing in common (but he likes how she looks!) blow them off because that woman doesn’t think they have anything in common.
THis is what seems to be the main source of resentment: You can’t control the inside of her head. You do not get syllabus, and when you pass the course, instant access. She gets to make her own decision, based on her own criteria, and you do not get any input. You do something she finds creepy, and she disengages. You cannot persist and force her to stop thinking you’re creepy — that only makes you seem creepier. There are eight billion people on the planet, and out of the relatively small number she is going to get to know… Read more »
Whoops. I said I couldn’t speak for the other men and then sorta did, at least in my choice of prepositions and saying “men” instead of “me”. Sorry. Consider the above to be *my* opinion, but based on the comments I’ve been seeing over three articles now, I’m guessing I’m not entirely alone in those sentiments.
One final thing and I’ll just wait for replies. Do you believe Nerdlove is acting as a PUA because he took his interaction with Cowgirl and broke it down? Do you believe that means he was planful and aware of using techniques as he went through each one? I read it as if he was going back in time and deconstructing why it worked out well. Perhaps that is a key difference in our reading. I could take a number of interactions I’ve had over the years that were similar to his, with me in the Nerdlove role, and if… Read more »
It sounds like to me, and this is a guess, that you see his piece/deconstruction as coming from a planful strategic place where he consciously and tactically made each move based on what he knew about women, vs an organic skillful social interaction that he then deconstructed. The logical implication of what you’re saying is that Dr. Nerdlove’s interaction was not creepy because it was not strategically planned and executed – it was just his natural, appropriate way of acting that came organically, and now he’s just deconstructing it so we can glean some wisdom from it. Thus, if it… Read more »
Preach it, Brother Marcus! For years, I literally wondered if had Asperger’s Syndrome, or fell somewhere on the autistic spectrum, because I never was able to pick up on the interested/open-to-approach vibe from women. Then I realized that that was a ridiculous notion because I’m actually incredibly sensitive to body language and social cues. In fact, in one of the clubs I was a member of years ago, I detected numerous incipient couples, many even before they themselves were consciously aware of the attraction. What actually was going on was not that I was missing the interested vibe from girls… Read more »
Interesting…I actually feel similar. I keep hearing from people I am a great judge of character, and I can usually pick up on body language very quick of people who are scared, angry, wanting to fight, etc.
Maybe you’re right and this advice assumes the person is attractive enough already.
You know Marcus? If you want to talk about this in real time on skype or something I’m more than happy to but I’m getting so triggered by you it’s not even funny. “he only way to successfully follow his advice, then, is to be unaware of it, but also naturally adept and confident at approaching strangers, knowing what to say, escalating appropriately, etc., all without having a “plan”. In other words: be attractive.” Do we even know what Nerdlove looks like? I don’t. This has NOTHING to do with what your face looks like. Or your body. It has… Read more »
Men are seeing him (Nerdlove) as a bullshit PUA pretending to be a feminist, and at least judging from comments, the women are buying it. I think you have to read his articles in conjunction with ones like “It’s OK to Want Sex.” He makes it seem like sex is something that men *take* from women and women are schmucks for falling for it. Other PUAs are far more resentful and go as far as making fun of women who ‘fall’ for the things they do. They see women as the enemy–something to conquer, and at worst, barely human–just holes… Read more »
Probably should have made that comment into paragraphs. :/
@Aya.. “He seems to get that.” OK. Let’s give Nerdlove the benefit of the doubt and assume he “gets that.” However, it does NOT change the fact that the woman was attracted to him. Why can’t you women understand this? It is a critical piece of info that you women are just tossing aside. She called him and started dating him because she found him attractive. His advice to most men seems to be: “hey guys make yourselves attractive. And when you do, her is how you go about approaching a woman….” The key to his success is not his… Read more »
I don’t think anyone is denying that she’d find something about him attractive. It could have been his look, it could have been his confidence, or a combination of both. Are you using the word “attractive” to mean only physical attributes? Or are you acknowledging that that attraction can be because of personality?
How should it look to you, the approach or the dating game, in order for it not to be causing anger. If PUA techniques are different than regular communication and flirting, how so? PUA techniques have been around and part of dating for much longer than the term, at least that’s what I believe. Flirting, banter, developing a rapport, vibing off each other, finding commonalities, looking at the cues that allow for physical touch…I’ve seen that forever. I’ve never had a problem with many of the actual techniques because I figure there have been many many people who did that… Read more »
I second this! If you misunderstand/miscommunicate one thing in a post it can cause a misunderstanding of all of it, and subsequent conversation. I put my two cents in here because, like a lot of women I know, it gets really tiring to have perfect strangers showing you hostility for just trying to get through your day. What right do those guys have to be angry at us? None. But those guys are not these guys on this board (although a few sound similar.) It’s not their fault that some guys are nasty anymore than it’s all women’s fault that… Read more »
Comment of the year!!!
Okay, Marcus, you got some of that, but you missed the major point. This is true regardless of who is trying to get the attention and who is expected to give it. The one who is approached has the right to refuse to engage. Either party has the right to disengage at any point. This is not a horrible power imbalance that victimizes men, and it also does not give attractive men a “get out of creep-jail free” card. Men hit on conventionally attractive women much more often than more normal looking women. Do those select women have an unequal… Read more »
So much this. And this from above “treats you like an object with which to fulfil their desires, who doesn’t modify their behavior to take into account your feelings, desires and boundaries when interacting with you.” “with which to fulfill their desires” = the comment you made above ““Okay, time to pretend women are people” And I think a lot of women either A) pick up on that difference between the authenticity and actual liking of himself and eagerness to like her or B) have had enough of the “time to pretend you are a person” approaches that they are… Read more »
@Marcus
“Men are seeing him (Nerdlove) as a bullshit PUA pretending to be a feminist, and at least judging from comments, the women are buying it. This is the kind of thing that causes men to think, “women go for the assholes”. Nerdlove is describing a reality I’ve never lived, and then he (and supportive women) are treating any men who think he’s full of crap as misogynist horndog creeps who are just bitter for not getting the hot sex they think they’re entitled to.”
So well said indeed.
You know what, you’re both wrong. If a man says, “This is the experience of a lot of women I know” and then a whole huge group of women say, “Yes it is!” why do you guys get the right to come in and say, “No, that’s not what you women experience.” I realize that you guys think that there are a lot of women out there saying “creep” to you for no reason. I”m sure there are. There a lot of guys out there saying “bitch” to women for no reason too. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t reasons… Read more »
Methinks part of the problem is….what’s creepy to most women, isn’t neccessarily creepy to most men. Add in the lil fact that men n women in general rely on slightly different communication methods and it equals a whole bunch of misunderstanding on each side. I have no doubt quite a few creeps aren’t actually creeps, but are misinterpreted on their behaviour and quite a few bitches aren’t really bitches but misinterpreted. Though both sides probably have quite a lot of each, and seeing as the terms are subjective the guy is still feeling bitched out, the girl feeling creeped out.… Read more »
“OR… maybe just maybe… some of you guys are acting like creeps without knowing it and refuse to take responsibility for that. You never have to change, never have to accept maybe you’re doing something unkind, disrespectful, or threatening as long as it’s all women’s fault that you were called a creep or not “liked”.
Great, why not engaging in personal attacks? Why not calling people vile names?
Really Joanna, you have absolutely no authority to speak about the life experience of commenters, you don’t know in real life. Being abusive doesn’t help you to convince people.
I don’t mean any of you specifically, and I’m sorry if it feels like I mean you’re acting like creeps HERE. I mean some of the guys in the world (on all sites, and in real life) who are mad about the word “Creep”. And you know what, you’re right, I don’t have any authority to speak about your experience, but I do have authority to speak about what women-like me and all my friends-experience. And I keep being dismissed, just as I was in the dating one. You keep dismissing MY experience and what my friends have experienced. All… Read more »
Joanna: “But I have to be honest, if I were being told by people repeatedly that I was a bitch, I’d take a look at myself.” I strongly disagree with this attitude. Words like “creep” or “bitch” are vile dehumanising slurs, when somebody calls you (the general you) these names they are committing abuse. Victims of abuse should stand up for themselves and not engage in introspection. Of course told me something like: “Stop staring at me!”, I would think about my behavioue and adjust it. “And I keep being dismissed, just as I was in the dating one. You… Read more »
@Joanna..
Are you not the woman who accused another woman who was talking to your husband of being “creepy” because when you came up on the scene, she (other woman) rolled her eyes and left….? Yet, your husband said she was “just being friendly.”
Who are you to tell your husband she was not just being friendly! Why do YOU get the right to come and say this other woman was being “creepy” and overrule your husband?
I will not hold my breath for a reply, as usual.
Because it’s creepy to roll your eyes at a guy’s wife simply because she walked back onto the playground where your children are playing, and near her own husband.
If she were just being friendly WHY would she roll her eyes at me? Do you REALLY not get this? Seriously?
I thought it would have been a single woman rolling eyes in a sense of disappointment, doh he’s married.
Although is it possible that the way you walked up indicated any sense of you being the jealous wife? That’d be the only reason I could think of for someone married to eyeroll, otherwise yeah something sounds off. I’d eyeroll at people who just have to approach their partner when you talk to them, but they do it in a specific way where you can sense their jealousy, they usually don’t come up with smiles or start to converse with you.
So because Marcus hasn’t lived a particular reality it means it’s wrong, or PUA oriented? Does Marcus know Nerdlove personally and know that he is an asshole? I believe Marcus when he says this is a reality he hasn’t lived. I believe his frustration with the topic, with Nerdlove. I sense a whole lot of something there that’s big and meaningful to him and I believe him. What I don’t see (yet anyway, for he’s not decided to email me at this point) is him believing my experiences either. I’m not sure if he thinks that what Nerdlove is discussing… Read more »
“Does Marcus know Nerdlove personally and know that he is an asshole?” I know enough about nerdlove, to have made up my mind about him being a jerk. Some of my reasons: 1.He uses vile slurs like creep. 2.He portrays himself as pushy and rude in his ” Guide to the successful approach” and seems to think he did great. 3.citation from “who has the power in dating: ““MEN HAVE TO TAKE ALL THE RISKS”….. Let’s be honest: more often than not the men who complain most about this are the men who would prefer not to be approaching women… Read more »
As usual, Marcus nails it completely. It IS about immediate attraction, and Nerdlove is trying to claim the opposite. Is that unfair? Sure. Can it cause resentment? Yes… but more often with the dishonesty of pretending it’s NOT about instant attraction when it so clearly is. The SNL sketch made a valid point, and Nerdlove’s attempt to dismiss it rings false.
“It IS about immediate attraction, and Nerdlove is trying to claim the opposite”
How do you know this? Are you inside every woman’s head? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. Why are you claiming that my experiences aren’t real? Because it hasn’t always been about instant attraction with me.
I think it is unfair to compare oneself to @Marcus’s experience-
With a hat like that you don’t need foreplay.
Hehe. I’ll have you know, that picture is cropped from one of my wedding portraits, so I got married in that hat. And a zoot tux. Woot!
THis is what seems to be the main source of resentment: You can’t control the inside of her head. You do not get syllabus, and when you pass the course, instant access. “ YES. Oftentimes (not always), men are taught to think differently than women. It seems like they want simple solutions. Answers. What do I do exactly to have women see me in a certain light (whether that’s simply as not creepy, as a potential sexual partner, or for a relationship)? But when women give them vague advice, we’re not trying to hide anything or be resentful. Women keep… Read more »
@Aya… Great and thoughtful insights! “Just this past week, I was completely floored by this very average looking man who made all of the right moves and perfectly read every single thing I did in an event FILLED with men–he knew when to tease, when to shut up, and when to compliment me” Well, unfortunately, this is the lay of the land. Just reading this reinforces just how little control we really have over dating and even holding conversations with women. It just seems as if holding a simple conversation with a woman has to involve skills. I am actually… Read more »
Interacting with people and having good conversations DOES take skill. It takes a lot of skill. That’s true for women too. Why is this surprising? Haven’t you ever talked to someone who is a poor conversationalist? It’s a lot less enjoyable than talking to someone who is a good conversationalist. Asking the other person to talk about themselves is just good manners. Showing interest in what they are saying — that’s called being polite. And if you really like someone, aren’t you interested in them? Or is it always all about you?
Good (or even basic) human interaction does take a great deal of skill. Much of which we all take for granted. We learn all these skills as we grow through actual interactions (doing them “right” and “wrong”), through school and through culture.
“Good (or even basic) human interaction does take a great deal of skill.”
I disagree. It depends on who you are interacting with. I can have a great interaction with a 4 year old or with a really awkward person as long as we are both interested and well intentioned.
What do you think I mean by skill? I mean that most humans (even that 4 year old) has learned and absorbed lessons in interacting. I wonder if you think I mean something different than what I mean.
Ok, if you think the social skills of an average 4 year are enough to have a good human interaction, then I don’t think I have a problem with you position, but I also don’t think you have set the bar very high. I just wonder about the sentence:
“We learn all these skills as we grow through actual interactions (doing them “right” and “wrong”), through school and through culture.”
As most 4 year olds haven’t been to school and had rather little exposure to culture.
Well, my four year old (by the time he was four) had been hundreds if not thousands of places in our city (and beyond), had been in day care for nearly three years (around teachers and other children), had been to parties, stores, been read books about all manner of things and talked to constantly. So yeah, he had a lot of exposure to the world and people. And he knew how to smile and say hello, how to answer questions, and he was learning how to be ok with waiting his turn, not touching other people without asking, asking… Read more »
Julie: “And he knew how to smile and say hello, how to answer questions, and he was learning how to be ok with waiting his turn, not touching other people without asking, asking for and giving hugs, sharing and a multitude of other things. He’s 12 now and pretty socially skilled, though he’s bossy at times and we are talking about that.” I would call this manners not social skills. What I mean is, that this amounts to a set of rules, if you abide those rules you are OK. On the other hand you can be socially skilled in… Read more »
What is the difference between manners and social skills to you? The way you are discussing them they seem the same thing.
Why was his approach impolite?
Julie: “What is the difference between manners and social skills to you?” Manners are a set of rules (depending on the culture you are in) how to interact with other people. If you want to be polite you learn those rules and act in accordnce with them. Social skills are skills that are useful when interacting with people, like being good at reading body language or portraying oneself as charming. So if you can’t read body language or if your demeanor shows your self hatred, you still can be polite. And as I have read quite many sexual predators have… Read more »
Julie Gillis @ 9:05 – Manners are rule-based. If I want to sit down and talk to you, it’s good manners to: 1) ask if you mind 2) wait for a response 3) respect your decision Social skills are more situational. If I’m observant and empathic enough, I can: a) tell from your body language whether it’s even worth asking b) on that basis, show good manners and(!) confidence at the same time by doing (3) before (2). It’s a more advanced level of interaction. If I sit down without waiting for you to say “sure”, it means one of… Read more »
@julie…
Most people have this skill Julie. They really do.
It is like saying most people do not know how to speak. The real challenge is having something to say that stimulates the other person. My approach: ask questions. She talks and you listen. However, when she ask you questions, be able to respond well.
Good human interaction is learned in your family. It is also learned in other spheres as you move through life.
I love great conversation. I enjoy having an espresso an bantering with someone. Though our society is quickly becoming antisocial, I still can engage women in nice convo. Not all, but most. Many are guarded and won’t talk to “strangers”, unless it is their strange online date they have never met. Go figure.
Fair enough, Julie. But just as clearly, many people don’t have those skills? Are they doomed from a relationship perspective, or is there some way to develop them that won’t involve an unending stream of hurtful rejections and insults?
@sarah….. I have never met a stranger. This is how I approach life. Maybe it is my southern background. People simply do not “scare” me. I talk to a lot of different people every week. Sometimes, the folks think I am weird….What I have discovered is a lot of people are starved for conversation, especially women. I have a very disarming demeanor and I smile a lot. It tends to relax women. Also, I never come across like I am trying to have sex with them. Though many women appear guarded sometimes. I do not think having a conversation really… Read more »
A few years ago, I was participating in a LinkedIn forum discussion, and one of the participants sent me a request to add him to my network. He was local and I was in network-building mode at the time so I accepted. We emailed back and forth a couple times, continuing the conversation from the original forum. No flirting or innuendos or anything, no creep flags, just friendly chat about a local newspaper article. Then he invited me to meet him for coffee. And I remember immediately feeling a sensation of “Uh-oh.” This guy was easily 20 years older than… Read more »
Doesn’t that teach women to simply avoid the situations instead of dealing with them, the fear of what they might be, they would obviously be missing out on a lot of potentially beneficiary relationships like friendships. I do the same stuff but they call it social anxiety disorder when you get to the extreme I am at, where I was avoiding people because they were ambiguous, they could be great but they could also hurt me. I suppose if you have enough male friends already it’s ok but to me it sounds very limiting, the paranoia of being hurt can… Read more »
I disagree with you Archy, most women have very little upper body strength and can be overpowered quite easily by an average man. I have learned this play wrestling and so on with boyfriends, i’m not a weakling but it is very easy for my boyfriend to pin me down even though he never works out and is not in great physical shape. Self defense classes can help, learning a few self defense techniques can help, but the number one self defense technique is to avoid dangerous situations in the first place. This has been taught in every self defense… Read more »
Or exercise? Why is your upper body strength so limited compared to theirs? The only major differences I see in strength tend to be when the men are in labourous jobs or who do weights, office men and office women for example shouldn’t really differ all that much. I guess I should add that women doing weights would be a great benefit to increase their strength for protection. Maybe the women I meet are just stronger? I know of weak women, but I also know guys who are weak who those women could overpower, to me logically to increase ones… Read more »
Ahhh I had a feeling my last comment wouldn’t make it past the mods. Oh well. In a nutshell – I get what you’re saying, Archy, and would agree in general that a woman who feels physically strong may be less afraid of the risk of physical altercation with men, but in this department, size matters. I am 5’5″ and 170 lbs, and moderately athletic. I do some strength-training and so I’d say I have above-average upper body strength for a woman my size, and my legs are no wet noodles either. However, when I’m play-wrestling with my husband who… Read more »
Good points, thank-you. I’m going to raise my kids to be strong and be able to defend themselves, even if it’s a daughter who only gets to 120lbs.
Would it help to learn confidence in dealing with boundary pushing? These are all things men worry about too but they just don’t talk about it much I suspect, the more men opening up the less different women may feel to men.
Testosterone is a major muscle builder. Women have a little testosterone but most women won’t realistically be able to do enough heavy weight lifting to become a match for even an average guy. There is also the difference in height, weight and general build. I’m 5’9 and not small, but my hands are very light and slender compared to a man, my grip is pretty weak whereas most men have quite a strong grip. This is just biology.
But you have to consider those socialized factors: 1) Muscles are seen as unfeminine when having visible, defined ones, especially if you hit bodybuilder range where you have more pecs than breasts. 2) Men do more physical jobs on average, less cashier, greeter or office as a % of all workers. Construction work and furniture making are physically demanding and almost all positions filled by men, except clerical work which is maybe 60/40 in favor of women. 3) When women exercise, the goal is almost always to lose weight or to stay “in shape”, never to gain muscle mass. They… Read more »
Exactly, many women are shooting themselves in the foot and avoiding the steps needed to increase their strength and thus be better able to protect themselves whilst men are actually expected to do so to the point they are less manly if they don’t. The strength difference has quite a lot to do with society pushing those expectations, the types of jobs, etc as you say. Funnily enough women will lose fat easier if they do weight training as more muscle uses more energy…and it takes a huge amount of protein and weight training regularly to sustain a body builder’s… Read more »
Archy – Good to talk to you again. 🙂 You’re right, paranoia is limiting. It’s not generally a good way to go through your life – you may come out on the other side unscathed, but you’ll never know what opportunities you missed out on. All the behaviors, attitudes and precautions women are trained with ARE self-defense. Physical self-defense skills are useful for women to have and can be a confidence booster, but it’s really just another piece of armor against a perceived threat that will likely never materialize. That is, a woman who has confidence in her physical ability… Read more »
Nice to talk to you again too 🙂 “And those consequences get waved in our face all the time, through campaigns aimed at women & self-defense, through news stories about women who have been victimized by men, through movies and books with victimized female characters, through stories we share with each other about men who have creeped us out or women in our own circles who have been abused/assaulted/raped…you find the Men=Danger Thread woven into collective female community at every turn. ” That’s partly why I hate gendered campaigns for anti-DV, they often show women as victims, men as perps.… Read more »
Ask Brett Farve how much being a good looking celebrity helped when he was sending his dick pics around. If Ryan Gosling happened to sit down next to UnWinona, draped his arms around her and started demanding to know what she was reading, she’s going to be equally annoyed as she was by the biker before he went nuts. If Adam Levine were to start talking about tits to Ky at the Minecraft party and showing off pictures he’ d secretly been taking of women’s breasts at the party, it’s stillgoing to be creepy as all fuck, regardless of how… Read more »
FlyingKal–The difference is that Nerdlove read the cues. Do you think he would have done that had the girl closed herself off or sent out signals that she was annoyed? I don’t know what he looks like, but I doubt that Nerdlove is a conventional 10 celebrity. He opened by teasing and cute remarks and felt out the situation. I have a friend who often talks about my tits and even asks to see them. It’s ok when he does it because we have that dynamic, and he knows we have that dynamic. If Adam Levine, one of the most… Read more »
Ok, but Nerdlove just doesn’t tell us about the times he creeped women out. Maybe he’s better than the average guy at reading cues, though I’m not convinced. Imo, it’s more likely he’s just more smug.
The situation with your friend is different. I can make jokes about the mothers of my male friends. If I do the same to a strange guy there’s a good chance he’s going to kick my ass.
@Aya…
” If Adam Levine, one of the most attractive guys in entertainment, did that–I’d be creeped the hell out.”
Most women would not. They would simply PRETEND. They would call all their girlfriends and tell them how Adam whatever the hell his name was, wanted to see her boobs.
Let’s talk about what REALLY happens!
I have no doubt there are women out there for whom this sort of thing is a pastime or sport. And I also believe there are women for whom it isn’t. Generalizing won’t really do much but frustrate.
@Julie…
I merely say this Julie because what women say and what women actually do are very often opposites.
Just saying..
I’m glad my experiences with people have been very different than yours.
@Aya:
FlyingKal–The difference is that Nerdlove read the cues.
What cues? They had introduced themselves, and established that he didn’t like drawing drapery.
I don’t see a lot of cues leading up to a discussion about sexual positions in the first 3 or 4 sentences that they’d exchanged so far.
All in all a great post that totally avoids the subject as it was laid out.
I wonder how many men are perceived to be creepy because they actively are trying to avoid making women feel uncomfortable, and their discomfort is being detected by the women and making a situation awkward?
Haha – not sure that we are…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIr8-f2OWhs
The connection to polymers may be a bit of a stretch – at least in my mind!
Great point Archy – the association between awkwardness and creepiness is not a big stretch.
I’ve noticed that vocal fry in a lot of recent music, is it a new trend?
The Slate Culture Gabfest discussed the prevalence of vocal fry in one of their podcast episodes last year.
I think there is some truth to that, unfortunately. Anxiety and awkwardness can lead to behaviors that seem “creepy” such as staring or “lurking”, e.g. the shy guy who is afraid to approach a woman in class but hangs around hoping to get up the courage. She notices it and feels creeped out. When he finally does talk to her, she freaks out. This makes it harder for him the next time, and a vicious circle begins. There is also just a lot of prejudice in American culture (maybe Australian culture too) against quiet, introverted people. We value extroverts and… Read more »
Great point Sarah on how some shy and introverted men can appear as creepy and how our American culture values extroversion and labels introversion as potentially weird. Although introversion is gender neutral, since men are generally the pursuers in the dating world, many introverted men suffer the fate of being wrongly perceived as creepy. Sadly, many of these men either become bitter at women (hence a lot of angry men at women on various Mens Rights blogs),drop out of the dating scene altogether and/or avoid women(the phenomenon known as MGTOW(Men Going Their Own Way), or turn gay( the numerous stories… Read more »
I’m unfamiliar with stories of introverted guys “turning gay”, suddenly coming out of the closet, or choosing to give bisexuality a try as a result of being wrongly perceived by women as creepy.
I just gave up on approaching women, I felt too scared of them, I didn’t wanna make them uncomfy so I put it all on hold. I learned how to talk to people again later on after joining a club and we have a wide variety of ages in there, it was easier to talk to the older women (10-20 years older than me) just as friends and helped to get rid of quite a lot of the social awkwardness. I’m actually quite an outgoing person in the club, very chatty and seem to make people laugh a lot, I… Read more »
Good and relevant point about the relative valuing of extroversion vs introversion in North American (and other) societies. In her recent book Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking, Susan McCain traces the societal changes around personality traits over the past century and it is very interesting! I am also a introvert, in the sense that much of my energy and inspiration and processing occurs internally and I need a lot of alone time in between “social times”. Introversion is not the same as shyness, but sometimes the two overlap, and I agree with you… Read more »
@cleopas..
“we”? Excuse me.
How about women? We need to go to the source of the problem. It is women who put the label on so many guys.
Jules wrote
How about women? We need to go to the source of the problem. It is women who put the label on so many guys.
What do you mean by that? When I commented that some introverted men who have given up dating entirely or try bisexuality inasmuch as they have fear approaching women to date,what do you mean by women needing to go to the source of the problem and women putting the label “creep” on so many guys?
@cleopas…
It is not men who are labeling women creepy! I would venture that 90% of the time, it is women who are labeling men as creepy.
Why look above at Joanna’s comment. She even labeled the woman talking to her husband as creepy! Joanna’s husband thought the woman was simply being friendly, while Joanna thought she was hitting on her husband. Wow! All because the woman walks away rolling her eyes, the woman is deemed a creep by Joanna and not her husband.
So, this is why I said it is women who need to change their ways.
Jules, a woman could show him her breast and my husband would be clueless. He’s the sweetest, most good-natured man on the planet when it comes to women and kids and most men. He’s a fierce fighter in situations where his family is threatened, but in almost any case and any social situation, he assumes the best of everyone. Nice way to turn it around on women, though. I doubt most men use the word “creepy” about women who are weirding them out. I bet “freak” or “slut” or “weirdo” or something would come up more. It’s a gendered word… Read more »
Nothing sad about MGTOW. If the shoe fits, wear it. It’s actually very peaceful and the right cup of tea for some. Just don’t be bitter. It’s a waste of life.
“Anxiety and awkwardness can lead to behaviors that seem “creepy” such as staring or “lurking”, e.g. the shy guy who is afraid to approach a woman in class but hangs around hoping to get up the courage. She notices it and feels creeped out. When he finally does talk to her, she freaks out. This makes it harder for him the next time, and a vicious circle begins.” I did this in highschool, the girls don’t realize I was more afraid of them than they were of me even though I was twice their size. Took quite a while before… Read more »
There’s definitely prejudice about introverted men. (Not the same thing as shy, necessarily, but there’s a lot of overlap.) The unknown subject in a murder investigation is frequently profiled as being a “loner,” even when the evidence clearly suggests otherwise. The original profile of the “DC sniper” told police to be on the lookout for a loner who may be at local bars bragging about how great a shot he is. (Umm, if he really is a loner, then why is he bragging in bars….?) People are so paranoid about the shy, quiet types that they fail to notice the… Read more »
Good thing there is a comfortable middle ground between “I can’t control how people feel; I am who I am” and “I’m forever walking on eggshells”.
We typically have little problem drawing a good line in the sand – not everything is a slippery slope between the poles. Gray areas will exist, and they seem to be the price of membership.
If I see you with your dick out in public, I’ll be ok if you’re also near a tree taking a pee. But if you’re waving it at me, then you’d better put a ring on it 🙂
Leather, rubber, or silicone?
Wait, are we talking about the same thing here?
I think Marcus and a few others mentioned some people seeing same sex couples kissing in public creepy. Well as a heterosexual male, In some classes in high school I was that guy in the back with my nose in the book. I was not being creepy at all just studying. The article intimates that some women perceive that as creepy. The gender gap can cause misunderstandings of what is creepy between men and women. I think some guys who are shy or introverted can come off as creepy to women . I as a man have seen “flighty”,zany women… Read more »
I think you’re on the right track – and I’d like to add that a person’s own personality will have a huge bearing on what they find creepy. A woman who is very extroverted might be suspicious of a quiet guy in the corner – but if the same guy, same appearance and everything, were behaving extrovertedly, she wouldn’t find him as creepy. A woman who is very introverted might be creeped out by an extroverted guy directly hitting on her, but if the same guy, same appearance and everything, took a more subtle flirting approach that honored her personal… Read more »
EXACTLY!
A male friend of mine had an experience recently where a drunk “cougarish” kind of woman (50-ish) hit on him in a bar. My friend is in his 30’s. The woman kept talking provocatively about sex, telling my friend that he was “hot”, and touching his leg. My friend described her as extremely creepy and he got away from her as quickly as possible.
So, although I acknowledge its a word usually aimed at men, women CAN be creepy too!
Women can TOTALLY be creepy. I see women hitting on my husband quite often, and some are SO creepy. Sometimes I watch from across a playground or something… my husband is so oblivious when women are doing this. He’s always, “She’s so friendly!” I’m like, “Yeah, did you notice she rolled her eyes and walked away and didn’t talk to you again after I walked up? Haha.
Creep will hopefully morph into a gender-neutral word someday.
Nicky Minaj is doing her part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLPZmPaHme0
hahahahaha
@Joanna… That is not being creepy. I would call it simple frustration or embarrassment. It just proves my point that creepy is what a person thinks in their head. Women seem to have the most extreme or strangest view of what it is to be creepy. Just look at the scenario with your husband. Another woman is carrying on a convo with him. You assume she is hitting on him. Why would you assume this? He merely thinks she is being friendly. Two different perceptions of the one event. When you arrive, she quickly realizes he is taken and moves… Read more »
If a woman were having a conversation with my husband just to converse, she would hang around when I walked up. If I’m talking to a dad of a kid, when his wife walks up I make a point to look at her and smile and start talking to her and make clear that I respect their union. But that may be because I’m not looking to hook up with any dads… Either way, to be irritated with me for being married to my husband of 8 years, because she thought he was hot, is creepy. In my book. “Creepy”… Read more »
He just did not feel she was F able. If she was a “hot” 50 year old drunk woman, he would not have viewed her behavior as creepy.
Again, it is not the conduct or behavior in and of itself. It boils down to whether or not such conduct or behavior is deemed OK by the receiving party.
Actually, he said she was attractive, but being significantly older than him and the sex talk and touching his leg creeped him out. She was talking about being in an open relationship and stuff like that. Plus she was sloppy drunk. I agree if she’d been a hot 22 year old he probably would have felt differently.
Honestly, I think this issue could have been addressed without the “attractive v. attracted” dichotomy. What does your appearance have to do with your being a creep? Quit creeping on people. Read body language. Get over yourself. Have a sincere conversation. Quit being so predatory.
That’s it.
Absolutely. I’ve met men who would score pretty high on the traditional attractiveness meter who were quite scary on a number of levels. I’ve met some men who were not who…were not. I’ve been approached by strangers in many ways, male and female, and experienced creepy socially weird behavior from both genders, and also not, I found no connection to whether or not I found them sexually appealing. In fact, I can remember occurrences where the good looking person was creepy and I felt sad about it because well, he was attractive. It’s much more about attitude and what that… Read more »
As the judgement creepy is highly subjective and not being seen as creepy requires some mindreading, people shouldn’t try not to be creepy, but be polite. Of course it is good to be friendly and considerate of other people feelings, but you can’t rely on you knowing, how other people feel. “If that seems unfair to you… well, you should stop and think of what sort of behavior you’d be willing to accept from Gabrielle Union or Jewel Staite that you wouldn’t be willing to accept from your eighth grade history teacher.” That is an important point, we can not… Read more »
“Behavior is considered creepy when it makes people uncomfortable.” Sorry. I’m not responsible for what people think, only for who I am.
@PursuitAce you know, while I was replying to this I went from wanted to agree AND offer a different interpretation of the text you quoted to completely agreeing with you. By O’Malley’s logic, if I were to kiss my partner of the same sex in public, and it made homophobes “uncomfortable,” then my behavior would be defined as creepy. I don’t like that nor do I agree. It took applying his logic to a personal example for me to really see the flaw in that sentence. I commend your unapologetic response.
I have never thought of it that way, Kaleb, but that is probably the best comparison I have ever heard.
You’re responsible if your behavior is intrusive of other people.
Everyone is.
Not always. Kaleb already pointed out one example, of same-sex partners kissing in public and some people finding that intrusive and feeling uncomfortable at the display. Shoot, that can even be the case for people who think PDAs (public displays of affection) are inappropriate even between members of the opposite sex. To take another, some people object to breastfeeding in public on the grounds that it makes them uncomfortable or is somehow indecent. I doubt you would find fault in breastfeeding moms for causing such discomfort, but that’s what Harris’s logic and your statement about who’s responsible would lead, by… Read more »
This is very true, Marcus.
Sure. I guess I should be more clear:
You don’t have to care about how people receive the things you’re doing. But in dating or even in making friends, it might be good to pay attention to those things and take responsibility for how the things that you do affect others.
It’s good to pay attention to those things insofar as you’re actually doing things that could reasonably *and justifiably* be expected to make another person uncomfortable. For example, sitting down uninvited with someone who is sketching, using sexually loaded language in a first conversation, and touching them on the small of their back are all behaviors that could reasonably be expected to come across as “creepy” if you’re not both attracted *and* attractive, yet all of those were elements of Dr. Nerdlove’s (who didn’t go to 12 years of Internet dating school to be called Mr. Nerdlove) article demonstrating the… Read more »
Here’s the thing, Marcus. The trick is ALL in reading the woman’s response to what you’re doing. Seriously. I don’t know why guys don’t believe women when we say this. I realize that there are guys who have issues that keep them from being able to interpret this, but that number is far less than many would claim it is. Most of us in the world can interpret signals from others. You just need practice. I think the Dr. NerdLove podcast I put on the blog a few weeks ago was incredibly informative about these signals. I think one reason… Read more »
———————- Here’s what I hear you (and Dr. Nerdlove) saying: When a woman feels creeped out by a man, then he did something creepy. This is true whether the creepy feeling came from something most people would agree has a high creep-factor to it, like sitting down uninvited with a woman engaged in a quiet activity alone, or something passive an innocuous, like looking at her from across a room. If a woman feels stared at, she is being stared at, regardless of how frequent or sustained a man’s look is. If she thinks he has a crush on her,… Read more »
That’s most certainly not what I read.
And yet I keep hearing it, over and over, with the only examples given being those of men engaging in high-creep behavior, as if I’m arguing that men never bear any responsibility in the creep reaction. Where are the concessions that men bear *some* responsibility in *some* cases for a woman thinking he’s a creep, and that sometimes it’s all in her head? Where are the concessions that Dr. Nerdlove engaged in *potentially creepy* behavior with Cowgirl, but was not creepy largely because she found him attractive, rather than because he was some master of reading women and tailoring his… Read more »
Read my longer comment. Some of the creepiest men I’ve ever met are extraordinarily good looking and charming. What can I say. When I think of “creep” I do not think of physical attractiveness attributes so much as I think of how a person behaves with others. Perhaps I am an outlier
@Julie, the term gets mixed up because some apply it to looks, others to behaviour. It’s annoying as hell because the first thing I think of with creep is someone being sleezy n lecherous, not just someone who has their hair strange or bad taste in clothes.
Good point Marcus.
@Marcus…. The “all in their head?” is exactly right. Women love to PRETEND. If the man is attractive and attracted, he will NEVER be deemed creepy. It’s like the legal definition of sexual harassment. It is all based on “UNWELCOMED” conduct. So, if the behavior is “WELCOMED”, then it is NOT sexual harassment? Correct. It is not the act or behavior in and of itself (staring, touching, …..) that makes a man creepy. Rather, whether the woman deems it OK behavior. If she finds him attractive, it is not creepy. If he is an unattractive putz, he is a creep.… Read more »
Bullshit.
🙂
I’ll probably be creeped out less if i am attracted to someone touching me then someone I am not attracted to, attraction probably lowers the bar considerably. I guess that is what you guys are discussing?
I think there are a number of discussions going on. If this person is your friend and you are not attracted is it creepy? Is it creepy if someone ignores your cues or boundaries no matter what they look like. There appears to be a set of people who believe that pretty people can do anything and that women only call men creepy if they aren’t attracted to them. I and others believe that it’s much more about intent and attitude, circumstance and boundaries than looks. No one appears to be in agreement and lots of side arguments are breaking… Read more »
My answer = 42.
And let’s all sing around the campfire.
Being attractive may reduce the chances of being creepy but it doesn’t make you immune.
And that’s not what I said or meant, Marcus.
Are the signals the same for men and women? Could explain some confusion if they send diff signals. I notice a lot of people talk about mixed signals, I’ve heard guys get angry when they think a girl is all over them, then suddenly goes cold. If that happens, I also wonder how often the guys make a play for it and fuck it up terribly and go too far, like lean in for a kiss when she isn’t into him.
Direct communication with words is so much easier:P
I don’t think the method of communication actually matters all that much. “Would you like a kiss?” is as likely to be welcomed or rejected as leaning in with a smile and a twinkle. As long as you understand both languages and are prepared to accept that “um, I’m not sure” means no, everything should be fine. Mixed messages are another matter. A woman apparently changing her mind is not necessarily because of anything a man’s done. Women just change their minds more than we do. Fact. There’s a phrase for it that I learned as a child, before I… Read more »
I went on a date once where I was having a really good time and really connecting with the guy, but the truth was I didn’t know him very well (we had just met the day before) and I wasn’t ready to get physical with him. We were having a good time talking and laughing and all of a sudden he tried to get physical. This made me very uncomfortable as I wasn’t ready for sex yet and really didn’t want to start anything that night. So I pulled back and things suddenly got very awkward. The date ended and… Read more »
The answer is so obvious, you say sorry I’m not ready to go that far yet but I’m really enjoying our time together. Can we take it slower? What would make him angry, and rightly so, is just that whole ditching aspect. He’ll be beating himself up for going too fast, misreading your signs, maybe next time he will be afraid to even try get physical and his next date will be thinking “Why is he waiting so long”. Of course these are possibilities, but to me it sounds like a major lack of communication and a potentially great relationship… Read more »
Yeah, some verbal communication is important here.
Yeah I didn’t handle it well in retrospect. I was a lot younger then (24, I think). He respected my boundaries, it was just that everything suddenly got awkward and weird and we went our separate ways. I always felt bad about it.
“I think one reason guys want to say “I have no control over this!” is because they love playing the victim and living in victim mode. Okay maybe they don’t LOVE it, but it works for them… to some degree. The same way that for me, creating and inviting chaos into my life “works”… It actually doesn’t work, but I’m good at it and have been doing it most of my life because of a very chaotic childhood.” Yeah you’re right. There’s no such thing as an Autistic spectrum disorder, that’s just something the patriachy made up to oppress you.… Read more »
“But in dating or even in making friends, it might be good to pay attention to those things and take responsibility for how the things that you do affect others.” You can only be responsible for the things you control, this means your feelings your thoughts, your actions and your inactions. How your actions affect someone else usually depends on factors which are beyond your control, like how this someone was socialised. To explain one example: We have boyfriend and girlfriend. They just started dating and boyfriend learns about girlfriends 10 one night stands in her pasts. He feels bad… Read more »
First, why the F does the boyfriend give a crap about what the girlfriend did in her past if she’s honest with him and committed when she’s in the relationship with him? If he doesn’t like her past, he needs to make a choice to move on. Her having one nighters before she met him HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM. That’s the distinction. She didn’t do it TO HIM. She did it before they were together. It has nothing to do with him. As I said when I answered this nearly identical question on my blog, http://www.shesaidhesaid.me – he… Read more »
And if you find your time machine so she can go back and change who she was before she met him, let me know so I can travel back to the year 1999 to see if Marcus was a creep or not before he met his wife.
Though I doubt he was 😉
I knew a girl online for about a year on a non-dating site. After a lot of posting in a group context, we had some one-on-one contact that got more personal, flirted some, etc., without starting what either one of us would consider a definite relationship. The group decided to gather for a face-to-face meeting, with people coming from many different states, including me and this girl from opposite coasts. When I greeted her at the airport, I greeted her as she entered the baggage claim area with a hug, and then a big kiss (with tongue) before we even… Read more »
I have no idea. Since you had a previous online relationship wit lots of information exchange, comfort and mutual enjoyment of each other, were looking forward to seeing each other, probably not creepy. For me, I’d probably not be personally ok with a french kiss at the very first meeting and if that happened, I’d probably think that our mutual communication was off by a factor of…well I don’t know. I mean it depends. Were we emailing about how much we wanted to just kiss each other? Then no, that wouldn’t be weird. If I’d said things like, “I’m looking… Read more »
I think we’re basically in agreement, Julie. The only reaction that really mattered was hers, and while I did my best to gauge her interest before plastering a kiss on her, the only way to know short of asking, “Do you mind if I tongue-kiss you now?” was to take the risk. Just like Nerdlove didn’t ask at each step before sitting down, making risque comments, or nicknaming a woman he just met after a sexual position. Like Nerdlove, my risk paid off. Not only did my gesture lead to sex later in the day, we ended up dating, living… Read more »
@Marcus, you got courage. Holy. I’d be too worried about that slap….
Wow, that sounds remarkably similar to how I first met my wife. Flew cross country and she met me at the gate (back when you could do that). I saw her, gave her a hug, and planted a kiss on her before words were exchanged.
That’s very sexy of you both – but you both knew the women in question very well at that point. There was an understanding of a romantic context. We all have to make decisions based upon the context. And Julie’s right, there’s no way to judge it. If Marcus had met GirlX at the airport and hadn’t given any indication of intimacy or more-than-friendship his kiss may have been not so well received. Also if said girl was dodging his gaze not smiling, he would probably not have kissed her like that. But there was obviously that “spark” – eye… Read more »
There was an understanding of a romantic context. Absolutely, although there was still ever-present doubt and fear of rejection. What if she didn’t like me in person? What if she thought I was ugly? Or smelled bad? What if the physical chemistry wasn’t there? Would the intellectual chemistry be enough? Sometimes to quell the doubts in your mind you just need to make a move and find out, rather than letting your imagination talk you out of it. Either she kisses you back, or you change your return ticket to leave the following morning. Fortunately for me it wasn’t the… Read more »
You changed the subject, I was talking about what would be a good attitude and good behaviour of the girlfriend, while you are talking about the boyfriend. In my example your sentence: Joanna “You don’t have to care about how people receive the things you’re doing. But in dating or even in making friends, it might be good to pay attention to those things and take responsibility for how the things that you do affect others.” applies. Joanna: “She didn’t do it TO HIM. She did it before they were together. It has nothing to do with him. “ In… Read more »
If your cologne or accent reminded her of a trauma, that would absolutely NOT be your responsibility. But it is your responsibility to, once she shows signs she is uncomfortable for ANY reason (and you may never know why, whether it was a past rape or something you did, it doesn’t matter) and doesn’t want you to hang about, leave her alone.
It wasn’t your FAULT that she had a bad reaction to you. But it would be your fault if you didn’t respect her need for you to step away.
Kissing your partner in public or breastfeeding in public are not actions consciously directed at other people (usually). Although I was at a restaurant once where this man and women were pretty much groping each other at their table and then looking around to see who was watching. They were clearly exhibitionists and yes that was seriously creepy. However, that’s a fairly unusual example. If you are going to approach another person and interact with them, you are responsible for your behavior. Or if you are in a social group, you should be aware of how you come across. My… Read more »
“If you are going to approach another person and interact with them, you are responsible for your behavior.”
You are always responsible for your behaviour, but you are never responsible for the behaviour of another adult.
If you are going to approach another person and interact with them, you are responsible for your behavior. Behavior, yes. Their reaction, no. Creepiness is subjective and while some things are much more likely to be considered creepy than others – like starting a conversation with sexual innuendo vs. looking in your direction from a distance – it’s still the case that finding someone initially attractive lets them get away with more, and finding them unattractive lets them get away with less, even to the point of finding completely innocuous behavior “creepy” when all they really are is unattractive. That’s… Read more »
Marcus, let’s take this ad absurdum.
So if I go up to an interracial couple and say, “Be with your own kind. Your kids will be teased and have a hard life!” (I would of course NEVER say that) I may have great intentions in trying to help their theoretical children… And I can’t be responsible for how they react, right? I mean, I’m trying to help. If they don’t like it, it’s their problem.
Fine, now let’s take it ad absurdum the other way. You’re at a park looking around at other people and couples and families, and an interracial couple thinks you’re looking at them a little too often or with some disapproval in your expression that isn’t even remotely in your mind or intention. They conclude that you’re prejudiced against interracial couples and refer to you among friends as “that bigot at the park”, because they know what prejudice and intolerance look and feel like, and something about your looks was enough to set off their warning bells. Is it fair? Is… Read more »
Here’s what I see. I see both of the examples actually happening in the real world. All of us do our best to approach people, live in the world, avoid conflicts and get on well. There well may be people in the world who would go to the interracial couple and tell them not to be together. And there well maybe be interracial couples who are so used to being stared at (or told terrible things) that they are hyper alert to anything that looks like judgement to them. And there also are people who are projecting judgement before it… Read more »
BINGO!!! Nerdlove is simply being disingenuous. Attraction matters and it matters a lot!!!
Yes, most men have to roll the dice and hope for the best. Sad.
As do women. It’s not sad, it’s life. We all take risk every day in our interactions with others. All anyone can do is our best to meet people where they are, offer real connection and hope for that best. And sometimes get turned down. Even women!! I know that’s shocking.
Attraction does matter, of course it does. As does behavior, as does attitude, as does intent. When all the stars align with those things, dates happen. Sometimes not even then.
If people would actually cut more slack about regular people missing signals (and if people wouldn’t act like assholes and use derogatory words to label people who are merely interacting) then the actual predatory behavior could be called what it is. Which it is.
He IS saying attraction matters a LOT. He’s saying “attractiveness” matters less than attraction.
Have you ever been attracted (drawn to, vibed well with) to someone who wasn’t actually attractive (conventionally hot etc)? I have. I think this distinction matters.
Also I really don’t see why it’s so hard to accept that if someone is giving off indicators that they are a happy positive person with authentic interest in you (rather than seeing you as a utility or means to an end) that people can’t pick up on that. Of course happy positive people are more interesting and exciting to be around than negative ones.
Joanna, notice that in your example you didn’t mention eitherthe couples emotions or their reaction. We all know that and why the things you said (in this hypothetical example) are rude and offensive. It is about judging the behaviour not the intentions, nor the judging the behaviour by the reaction. Here an example: I am at a party and I notice a woman staring at me. Now I might be affected very differently by this staring, depending on my personality, my attitude and my experiences. I might be glad that somebody is interested in me or be creeped out, for… Read more »
“My boyfriend has a friend who is very shy and socially awkward. The guy has a crush on me, even though I’m 10 years older than him. We were at a social gathering, and every time Ilooked up, he was staring at me. It started to freak me out after awhile. I am nice to him and I try to encourage him because I know he has “issues” but being stared at and kind of followed around the party for 3 hours was too much. He scares women off because of this kind of behavior, unfortunately.” If you can, PLEASE… Read more »
I wish that there were classes taught, and I don’t mean like PUA types, but just in general for anyone who believes they don’t read cues well. I have always read them too well, been too aware (but this is a great benefit in most of my life ultimately) and for me their is a huge difference between the folks who wind up being called “creep” for basically having less sense of a sense (like some people have acute hearing and others dont) and folks who know good and well what they are doing encroaching on others boundaries. Oddly, and… Read more »
I’ve noticed this as well. People are astonishingly bad at assessing risk, and good looking people can often get away with a lot. It’s interesting, is it not? We tell the “Nice Guys” they are complaining as if they are entitled to a relationship, but the ones who are actually behaving in an entitled manner are the good looking, socially aware types. We want to believe the bogeyman looks like Jackie Earle Haley in Little Children, but in fact he’s just as likely to look like Patrick Wilson. What was that link you posted a while back about how to… Read more »
Yeah, I suppose I get triggered by people (of any gender) exhibiting passive aggressive victimy behavior though. I think of Nice Guys as more akin in behavior and attitude to acting entitled though. I suppose I see that there is behavior that is actively aggressive and predatory, there is behavior that is passive aggressive and entitled and more manipulative in a quiet way, and then socially awkward. And of course there are people who actually really just seem to like themselves and others, have empathy and a clear sense of their own boundaries and others, and really enjoy social interactions… Read more »
And the thing is somethings predators do look like that. And sometimes they look soft and helpless. And sometimes they look strong and fierce. And if you had a bad experience with someone who looked like Jackie Earle Haley in your childhood you may be predisposed to think all men who look like that are creeps. Heck, if you even see a film where they cast people to look creepy you may then be predisposed to think similar looking non actors are creeps. Which means when you run up against a real predator, a true sociopath, you may really not… Read more »
My thought though is that if I were sitting on the train, with headphones on and a book, and a person of any gender butted into my space and insisted on talking to me, that they’d be displaying at the very best an extreme lack of social awareness and manners and at worse they were a threat. If I declined and they called me a bad name or pushed me to tell them why I wouldn’t talk? Yes, that’s quite creepy no matter who does it. It means that they think your personal time and needs aren’t as important as… Read more »
I hear what you’re saying about empathy and personal histories and all of that, and I agree with it. However, if you read his prior article about “how to approach women”, he did almost exactly what you just described as something that’s creepy no matter who does it. He entered the space of a woman engaged in a solitary activity – sketching – in a coffee shop. If that’s objectively creepy no matter who does it, one would think her reaction would be that of having just been engaged by a creep. And yet she didn’t react that way. She… Read more »
If you agree with me that empathy, and personal histories and timing play a role, then why does it upset you that sometimes things are creepy and sometimes things are not? If I”m on a train alone at night in a bad mood with histories of bad trainrides vs I’m on a train half full during the day in a great mood with no history of bad moods, the same behavior may cause different reactions no matter how “attractive” the person is. If I”m single and sketching and wishing I had a date this weekend vs I’ve got a boyfriend… Read more »
Here is where I think the problem breaks down. The person approaching doesn’t have a clear understanding of my history, the timing etc. Right? He or she approaching me doesn’t know if I’m open to conversation. I’ll put myself in the driver’s seat for a second. If I saw someone that I wanted to approach on a train/coffee shop etc. I’d look and try to read their situation. Headphones on? Sunglasses on? Looks to me like they are in deep space blocking people out. Looking around while drinking their coffee? Making eye contact with others? Signs are good I could… Read more »
If you agree with me that empathy, and personal histories and timing play a role, then why does it upset you that sometimes things are creepy and sometimes things are not? It doesn’t upset me. You keep saying things that I mostly agree with, but I keep arguing back because I don’t think you’re understanding the distinction I make between what you’re saying, and what Nerdlove is saying. When Nerdlove says attractiveness has nothing to do with it, and Joanna makes blanket statements about needing to take responsibility for the impact you have on others, that’s different from saying personal… Read more »
I don’t disagree that in the majority of human interactions what you are saying is right on. You act, a person reacts, and you go from there. Sometimes the reaction is about them and their issues and the most you can do is say, wow…that was odd and golly I sure am regretful that person is having a bad day etc but I am confident that what I did was chill and good. And sometimes the person doing the acting is actually encroaching purposefully and with intent and they should indeed take responsibility for their impact because their intent is… Read more »
The only benefit I see to PUA training is the inner confidence. That whole cycle you describe is what I suppose a lot of people wind up feeling is creepy. I’m a confident person. I enjoy confident and happy and easy interactions. I’m actually really good with non-easy interactions but there are people who aren’t and get put off by other people’s fear. It triggers a fear response back I think, like…something’s off here…I should be on guard. Which then may further alienate the awkward person. But I’m not worried about the socially awkward. I’m worried about the people who… Read more »
I should probably get a PUA book, but I want one with just the basics and not the additional misogynistic crap I keep hearing about. I have a few books on body language which help though. It’s also been good to interact with women who are older without that sexual attraction stuff mucking it up:P Good way to help get confidence and learn body language more.
Take an improv class. Learn to play, say yes, trust yourself. Much more useful and more fun too.
Eh, face to face contact like that is still a bit scary, I prefer to read about it first:P I don’t think there are any local ones though :S
I’ve read some PUA stuff and they have some good advice about reading body language and non-verbal cues, but the underlying attitude toward women is really cynical, offensive and sexist. That’s my main objection to it. My understanding of the history of PUA is that the early “gurus” took a lot of techniques that were originally developed in sales & marketing and applied it to picking up women. There is also a lot of overlap with the field of selp help psychology called NLP (neurolinguistic programming) — which is also very popular with people in sales because it is a… Read more »
Yeah, manipulation is a big no no for me. I want to be honest, want them to like me for me, I CBF trying to do one nighters or lead people on, I’d rather go see a sex worker if life was that bad. Hell I had a woman grow very attached to me and wanted me, but I didn’t have the same feelings for her, I couldn’t sleep for a night trying to figure out how to tell her that, I had a panic attack n felt like a monster because i didn’t reciprocate the feelings. We had a… Read more »
Yes, this is totally creepy behavior! I was at a bar with a bunch of my friends from HS reunion…everyone was chatting excitedly and deep into conversation about their lives, kids, careers, etc. ….there was a seat open next to me and I could feel someone staring laser-like at me from the corner about 20 feet away! It was the 8th grade creep who crushed on me long ago (and who I rejected when he asked me out)….he wasn’t talking to anyone, just staring! EEEWWWW! I think he was afraid of sitting in the chair next to me and facing… Read more »
So here’s the thing, Leia. Sure you felt uncomfortable not only because of the current situation, but because he had feelings for you in 8th grade that made you feel weird. Any reason you didn’t just talk to him yourself? As in, Mr. X this behavior is making me feel uncomfortable and it keeps me from wanting to hang out with you. Why not just talk to him? Is he an actual danger or just someone you don’t like? Now, there isn’t any real reason you’d have to do that, and I firmly believe that. It’s not your job to… Read more »
Yeah something seems off about it, I hate that deceptive bullshit. There is a chance the guy has no clue how bad his behaviour is, ignoring it for decades won’t do any good.
Some people react very angrily and stridently when someone even suggests that they’re doing something wrong. You only have to be the recipient of one, “You stupid ugly bitch, of course I wasn’t staring at you, you whore, etc, etc, etc” to never want to see another guy set off like that in your life. (The most explosive, abusive response I ever got was from a guy I smilingly asked, “I noticed you were looking my way a lot, did you need something?”) Sometimes, when an unexpected situation pops up, it’s hard to know how to react. (Looking back, it’s… Read more »
@shinylavarocks…. “I noticed you were looking my way a lot, did you need something?” One, was their something you really could have given him? Not trying to be a prick here. I am Black guy who was driving through an upscale community. I actually have a home that is bigger and more custom than that respective community. This white guy had the gall to ask me if there was “something I can help you with.” Like I was buying a fucking rug! Yes, I unloaded on his ass. If I was a White guy, he would not have asked me… Read more »
I am Black guy who was driving through an upscale community. I actually have a home that is bigger and more custom than that respective community. This white guy had the gall to ask me if there was “something I can help you with.” Like I was buying a fucking rug! Yes, I unloaded on his ass. If I was a White guy, he would not have asked me a damn thing. How did your behavior help to improve the world? How did it help educate the other guy? Did unloading on him make you happy? You don’t sound happy… Read more »
@Julia Byrd: Yes. I was the hostess of the party.
Oh, see, I answered that question and then assumed the rest of your post would be in good faith. Now that I’ve read it, I see I was wrong. Too bad.
All your assumptions were wrong, and you projected a racist experience you had onto my interaction. Fail all around.
How can you not just love Julie? I don’t think its possible.
Aw!
I agree!
It was all in your head, since 8th grade for heavens sake!!!!
@ PursuitAce
Agree 100%
It’s the same as the fear woman have walking down the street.
She feels uncomfortable so i should make noise acknowledging my presence or cross the street ?
Just because I may feel that someone is creepy, doesn’t mean that they are in fact creepy.
The problem with the term is that we use one person’s experience with someone as a final verdict.
A woman thinks a guy’s creepy, she tells your girlfriends about him and now in her social circle he’s known as “that creepy guy”.
Yes you should make some noise. Last year walking my dog at night, off leash – yes it’s illegal but she loves chasing rabbits- I called “come here” and scared the living day lights out of a teenaged girl on her porch who couldn’t see my dog getting ready to pee on her lawn, behind the hedge. I’ve been running the dog with a retriever bell at night ever since. And yet last week some young idiot in a hoody and ear buds was scared shitless by the dog & I- I was on the bike & Molly was running… Read more »
If walking a dog off leash is illegal in your jurisdiction, don’t do it. This post illustrates why that law is in place. Don’t blame the victim.
Why is the law in place? So some kid can get run over by a drunk because he/she doesn’t hear the car bearing down on him? So he’s walking in a bad neighborhood and doesn’t hear predator footsteps? Walk the subway some night with your earbuds in and your nose in your phone- you are the gimp legged gazelle at the watering hole. You ever see someone walk off the curb & get hit by a cab? I have.
I’m a bad man, I often don’t wear my seatbelt too…..
And, once a man has been branded as “creepy”, it is virtually impossible for him to shed that label. If you heard him called a creep before you met him, that would have a huge impact on what you think of him when you finally do meet him. It’s a highly prejudicial word that sticks like glue for a very long time. (No, not speaking from experience, at least not as far as I know….)
You are responsible, at least to some extent, of what people think of things you do TO THEM. Someone calls you creepy for something you did that in no way interacted with them? They’re wrong. Someone calls you creepy for something you said, or did, directly to them? You ARE responsible. You did it. To them.
That’s a great sentence, man. So much depth and thought behind it.
OK, the size of this reply thread is very impressive. And, no, I didn’t read, but did search for ovulation and hormones, and found neither. While it is still perfectly fine to discuss men’s hormonal behavior, I’ll venture that it is not so for the fairer gender’s ~~ I guess I’ll expire before finding the BBC article specifying the proportion of children born to parents who had sex only once. But here’s this, to which I’ll add the question, How much higher is the creepy bar when she is ovulating? http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/genetic-crossroads/201101/the-one-night-stand-gene