Do Women Still Want Men to Be 'Persistent' These Days?

Let’s have a tough conversation about women and modern times.

Have times changed when it comes to flirting, dating, and relationships?

In many ways, yes.

One of the most common social scripts when it came to flirting between men and women used to be: men being relentless pursuers and women being demure hard-to-get types feigning reluctance to men’s advances.

It was a social adaptation that made logical sense in light of patriarchy punishing women for being “easy” or sexually promiscuous. Such psychological teasing could also have a certain exciting allure for both sides.

These days, however, sexual liberation in many parts of the world has advanced enough for many women to feel freer in their self-expression, and freer to stand up for themselves. Many women who grew up in more liberal regions have no problem with being more honest with themselves and others about their desires, and their more direct style of flirting reflects that.

They feel no need to engage in “token resistance” or any artificial cat-and-mouse games in the courtship process, instead choosing to prioritize clearer communication for the purposes of promoting greater social awareness of consent.

At the height of the #MeToo movement, conversations about affirmative consent were part of the public discourse more than it had ever been, but some of the guidelines about affirmative consent were in direct opposition to many people’s perception of so-called “common sense” flirting that was part of the social scripts they were used to.

Some men chose to hold onto their old ways, fists shaking at feminism like the “Old Man Yells At Cloud” meme. They were being asked to learn a new language for the purposes of easing the pain and suffering of a group they already found it difficult to empathize with in the first place, and the old language they had been using their whole lives was already serving their purposes well enough.

Other men, on the other hand, adapted our dating strategies to these modern cultural shifts.

Because of the changing times, it feels like an awkward phase of growing pains for some people.

Some concepts such as “persistence” deserve a second look.

Persistence used to be universally touted as a necessary characteristic for men to have in their pursuit of dating or seducing women. In more modern discourse about consent, however, it has come to light to many of us that “no” isn’t necessarily the only thing that means “no,” especially when taking power imbalances into account.

As Ben Rosenthal wrote in his article discussing persistence:

A lot of men today who have honorable intentions towards women won’t be persistent with a woman who’s said no (even a soft no, such as “I have a boyfriend”), out of respect for her boundaries. Would you want a “persistent” man if that means he doesn’t respect your boundaries?

…If a man is sincere about respecting women’s boundaries, then if he asks a woman out or otherwise expresses interest in her and she rejects him, then all else being equal, he needs to treat that no as a permanent no. — Ben Rosenthal

Overall, adopting this attitude of prioritizing your respect of women’s boundaries — and developing awareness of how women communicate their boundaries both verbally and nonverbally — is a better dating strategy than relentlessly persisting past any potential “token resistance,” as it results in you projecting an air of comfort and safety that allows women the emotional space to freely feel attraction and arousal in greater amounts compared to how they feel around men who are more relentlessly persistent.

However, the optimal strategy isn’t to forego persistence altogether, but to practice it in a way that still fully allows comfortable expressions of boundaries that women know would be heard and respected.

My own comment on Ben’s piece was as follows:

Well, there’s a fine line here. I am “persistent” in a way that still respects boundaries and doesn’t put any pressure on her. It’s like a constant invitation with no expectations. — Michael Chief

Ben asked me for a more concrete example, but any example I would have given at the time could have been taken in the wrong context without the further explanation I am now able to provide in this article.

It wasn’t until KAT, LMT, RYT replied to my comment with the following female perspective that I thought it necessary to write this piece:

This is good. Have you written about this way?

…Women never tire of being pursued because it ignites us. If he does it well, respectfully, it’s magic. — KAT, LMT, RYT

This comment affirmed the way I’ve adapted my “persistence.”

When I’m flirting with women, I still have what anyone would describe as a “forward” or even “aggressive” energy.

My body is turned fully toward her and my gaze is boring a hole through her eyes as if she’s the only thing in the world that matters to me in that moment. My full, undivided, intense attention is causing her to be flustered as her own gaze and physical movements turn into desperate squirms reaching out in random directions for a breath of fresh air, but I’m allowing her none.

Sometimes.

Of course, statically projecting a singular vibe is generally a losing strategy in any seductive endeavor. I’m certainly not that forward one hundred percent of the time, or even half the time. There are more emotional states to take her through, after all.

Even so, I’m sure to set up and verbalize things in a way that always gives her an “out” if she wants it. I reassure her that it’s perfectly fine to reject any of my advances, that it’s OK to say “no” to anything I ask of her, and that I’d never be upset with her for anything of the sort.

You know what, though? This should have always been the case. It has always been the case. Women have always responded best to men who were persistent in ways that respected their actual boundaries. #MeToo didn’t change anything but the societal awareness of the issues.

“Make the Ho Say No”

There was a “guru” famous within the PUA community who was known for saying, “make the ho say no,” which he said was a quote from a rap song, if I remember correctly. One of the pillars of his method involved being so persistent that it would result in either her accepting your advances, or for her to unequivocally reject you, hence the rap song quote. This method of persistence was adopted by many of my peers and other gurus, and dogmatically touted as a seduction fundamental.

However, it was crass and unrefined.

Yes, it’s certainly possible to be so persistent that you eventually annoy a woman into bed, but such disregard for her boundaries will more often than not end up in sexual regret, or what the PUAs called “buyer’s remorse.”

This method of persistence not only failed to take into account some basic principles of consent, but also didn’t do anything to encourage developing a better sense of reading — and appropriately reacting to — women’s subtle communication cues, a fundamental skill PUAs called “microcalibration.”

I believe the whole point of learning all this dating and seduction stuff is to get closer to women.

The end game is to be part of their world, and for them to be part of yours. It’s to find love, to understand each other fully with passion and compassion. It’s to really find home in the arms of the woman or women you love.

We can’t get there without practicing understanding. We can’t get there by barreling through their signals of discomfort or rejection with reckless abandon.

Yes, we men still need to be persistent by leading the escalations in any seductive endeavor: it’s still generally our role to be the ones risking rejection, initiating the flirting, asking her out, breaking the touch barrier, texting or calling first, carrying her into the bedroom, following up after dates, and so on and so forth.

However, we still very much need to put concerted effort into reading and understanding any discomfort she may have throughout those processes, and to deescalate when needed.

If you’re having trouble understanding whether or not a woman is uncomfortable in any situation, it’s perfectly fine to bring it up to the surface by asking her directly. “Are you comfortable with this?” has become a staple line in my own escalations.

Just remember that thing I said about a constant invitation without any expectations.

In the end, it’s not about persisting past her boundaries.

It’s really about persisting past your own natural proclivity toward inaction. Persist past your habit of rejecting yourself before you take any steps forward. Persist past your comfort zone of shying away from proactiveness. Keep giving her that invitation.

Do you think women still want men to be persistent? What does persistence in dating look like to you? Let me know your thoughts in the comments.

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This post was previously published on medium.com.

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