“I cannot and will not assume the collective voice of my gender.”
For those of you unfamiliar with the phrase “rape culture,” generally accepted definitions may be found here, here, even here. The theory implies that our society is comfortable with zero accountability in separating sex from violence, violence from sex, and thus indirectly expects, even condones, rape and other forms of sexual violence. I’ve no problem with such a theory as an ideology, a mechanism of socio-philosophical discussion, a basis for work or research in the social sciences that urges our world to change for the better. I’ve no problem with people living their lives in accordance with this kind of ideology. I’ve no problem with people constructing their own sets of beliefs under its influence.
When I do have a problem is when such an ideology implicates others, implicates me, and grossly, presumptuously, and rigidly categorizes victims and perpetrators.
Ms. Brown asks, in her stirringly passionate and stunningly offensive opinion piece, why men are not angry, why men are not upset that American rape culture “[expects] men to be violent, misogynistic, and to not even notice, let alone care, what a woman wants.”
I appreciate the term “rape culture” and what it has come to define as theory. But, personally, I am not really angry because, historically, the term that posits these criteria in the first place comes from an ideology formed by female feminists. Who I am by such association is their opinion. It is an opinion that they are entitled to and one that can often be proved correct.
That women should have to even consider that what they wear and how they act will influence chances of rape is the fundamental dilemma rape culture addresses. That our society even proposes such a dilemma supports the idea of rape culture to begin with. Given this reality, however ugly or imperfect, actively decreasing the factors that do exist and that do lead to an increased chance of rape may be a more productive day-to-day solution than being proudly and dangerously resistant.
“When are [men] going to make clear … that THIS IS NOT HOW MEN BEHAVE,” Brown asks—and I don’t have an answer. Nobody knows why people do the things they do. I do not know how men behave. I only know how I behave. And I don’t behave that way.
I do not rape. I do not keep company with men or women who rape. Even trying to associate my ways with those of men or women or anybody is, at best, an idealistic exercise with little resemblance to fact, reality, or the point. I cannot and will not assume the collective voice of my gender. I am not an ambassador for any other being than myself. I will not insult any grouping of people anywhere with generalization or presumption, and I like to think—hope to think—that any other man or woman would similarly withstand.
♦◊♦
The Good Men Project itself is a good example of how to begin to interpret a group of people. This very publication says nothing definitive about men as a whole. It is simply a forum where individuals come together to share their own stories, perspectives, opinions. If such things speak to and help readers, that is wonderful. It’s the site’s purpose to create that kind of discourse. But even with hundreds of voices, this publication says little about men as a monolithic group. It remains a log of personal experiences and feelings, compiled through anecdotes, essays, and stories, which only begin to construct a discussion of men, women, fathers, daughters, sons, mothers, what their lives are like, how they are and are not common. It would be a mistake to identify any claim in such a discussion with any larger group. It is a similar mistake to identify any claim of rape with men as part of any group or representation, let alone gender. Such identification is offensive, unjust, and shortsighted.
I am in full support of men and women alike speaking out against a culture that expects rape and sexual violence. But note: expects, anticipates, prepares for, laments, and rightfully and truthfully assumes rape. Not condones. Not encourages. Ours is a culture that accepts such a horror as a predictable fact of the world. To say instead that ours is a culture that condones, encourages, motivates rape is a cynical and pernicious view of humanity that I can’t not resist.
There is no underlying assumption that men rape. There is especially no underlying acceptance that men rape. The only thing that can be logically assumed and accepted is that rape happens, and that the victims and the perpetrators, though some are more predictable than others, can be anyone.
Perhaps one should feel responsible for one’s entire gender because society has created an unfair situation (rape culture) and that actively fighting against it—however unfair for men—is the only way to change it. But by grouping all men together, Brown is suggesting that all men are the same. It’s a mistake to divide traits, expectations, anything between men and women. That kind of presumptuous stratification between the genders creates, essentially, a societal scenario of men versus women and women versus men, which is problematic and unhealthy on so many levels.
Not to mention, it’s bullshit. There’s little difference between that scenario and gender essentialism, a basic philosophical view that core feminist beliefs fight against. Objectifying all men as rapists through association with the guilt and the despicableness of actual rapists is as heinous as the sexual objectification of women in rape culture. It degrades and concretizes men as predictable beings with predictable motives, and denies the tenacious mentality of social, cultural, political, economic, and gender equality that feminism promotes. Social objectification establishes a cultural mindset of permanence, undercutting the entire concept of social change.
♦◊♦
Those advocating a change from rape culture make a simple normative judgment that society should be a certain way. The implicit assumption in such a judgment is that society is not naturally that way. It is truly pitiable that our society has cultivated a certain level of comfort in mixing violence and sex. Such has in turn cultivated a world that must accept rape as a ubiquitous possibility.
I’ve been mugged and assaulted. It left me with an unshakable distrust and suspicion of strangers. That it may happen again always looms as a possibility. But I wouldn’t dare assume that every guy walking the street in a hoodie is or has been a perpetrator.
Ultimately, I’m trying to reject the us-versus-them gender war of rape-culture discussion. I don’t much care what cultural critics say about men as a monolithic group because critics often rely on blanket generalizations. The best way to change people’s expectations of men is to lead by example and take responsibility for yourself without blame, defensiveness, retaliation, and especially apology.
As human beings—not simply men or women—that’s the least we can do. It doesn’t merit reward or praise. It’s just basic human decency.
—Photo cascade_of_rant/Flickr
Rick S.
Speaking of Duke. See all the fuss–not–over the rape of Katie Rouse, a Duke student at a Duke fraternity house. Not much sisterly concern there.
Ditto Frank Lombard, a Duke admin type. So many conflicting “isms” that it should have sounded like a six-train wreck. But the possibility that the isms might actually be discussed in public meant nobody heard of it.
A survey of 108 rapists undertaken by Raymond A. Knight and Robert A. Prentky revealed the 60 percent came from female-headed homes,. 70 percent of those describable as ‘violent’ came from female-headed homes. 80 percent of those motivated by ‘displaced anger’ came from female-headed (single-parent) homes. “No-Fault Divorce: Proposed Solutions to a National Tragedy,” 1993 Journal of Legal Studies 2, 19, citing R. Knight and R. Prentky, The Developmental Antecedents and Adult Adaptations of Rapist Subtypes, 14 CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND BEHAVIOR 403-426 (1987). Seems like this would be a good place to start addressing the rape culture, in the female… Read more »
Murat – I’m not reading all the 99 comments before mine, however… I want to say that I think this is a really smart, insightful declaration you’re making. The truth is, change starts within each of us. You’ve made the choice to live your life as a good man, and that’s all we can really ask any individual to do. However, I think you’re discounting one important thing you said… You do not associate with anyone who rapes. See, that’s a way you are taking a step outside of just not raping another person. You’re also saying here (if I’m… Read more »
Joanna, I think there are two things here. The first is the response to Nikki’s piece, and the second is what our moral culpability is as members of society. Nikki’s post at first assumes that rape culture exists, and then takes men to task for not fighting it. A lot of men don’t agree with her initial premise, so it’s something of a non-starter. I think the reason many men don’t accept the idea of a rape culture is because the idea is contrary to their personal experience. I’ll take my own personal experience as an anecdote – the most… Read more »
Ugh, lost a few sentences because of the auto-refresh. The following was to go after the recounting of Gene’s remorse: Researchers have done a lot to tell us who the rapists are. Most rapists are not like you and me, they are lacking in empathy and have other psychological disturbances. Gene appears to be the exception. His act was not one borne of feelings of privilege or malice towards women, but because of external pressure to be part of the gang. But neither Jack nor Gene are representative of men yet, according to the way “rape culture” is often described,… Read more »
As a sidenote, some of you may have watched a “60 Minutes” piece about a white female undergraduate at an American college who was gang-raped by two black basketball players — who then received light sentences even after being found guilty of rape, and afterwards resumed their athletic careers at other universities. Bizarre. With the Duke Lacrosse case, an accusation by a black woman against young white athletes resulted in an explosion of angry condemnations from feminist pundits in the media, who then said NOTHING when the accusation was proven false. This case, by contrast, has virtually been ignored by… Read more »
Seriously let’s run this back to Title IX. Women fought for and won the case for equal opportunity in education. A person is raped once every six minutes in the United States. Did we say hey what would make us REALLY equal? Freedom from threat of sexual violence? How about mandatory federally funded Aikido and or Taekwondo classes from kindergarten through 12th grade in public schools. No, we decided to imitate the other in quest for power and now we have professional women’s basketball teams. Sports is good. Nothing wrong with sports. My comment is not anti-sports. The point is… Read more »
There is no rape culture. The ridiculous concept for predictability and expecting rape as rape culture, not mention the moronic condoning concepts. If a bank leaves all their doors unlocked, has no safe, and has a sign that says so, and arrows that point the way, you can expect it to be robbed sooner or later. At first not, apart perhaps from idiots, at first most smart bank robbers would expect it to be the trap, but once they know it’s real, they’re going to rob the bank. Does that mean that we live in a Rob Culture? Does that… Read more »
I’m not a car thief, and that may explain why no one is chasing me.
I also don’t hold-up convenience stores at gunpoint, and that may explain why I’m not in jail.
To assume that I automatically participate in or subscribe to some mythical ‘rape culture’ is purely
absurd, and is just as easily dismissed.
Across the world, the overwhelming majority of rapists — and their victims — come from poor and working-class populations — exactly the demographic that is not likely to be spending their time reading this website or anything by Nikki Brown, which is one major reason she and her fellow man-haters are so ludicrous with what they propose. And, I might add, counterproductive to really reducing sexual assault against women, because such women refuse, out of political correctness, to address the sociological and economic factors that contribute to a “culture of rape”. But can’t let the possibility of preventing future victims… Read more »
So…what have you done to prevent rape lately?
“So…what have you done to prevent rape lately?”
Vote for Republican legislators, who generally favor stiff sentences for criminals, as opposed to the hug-a-thug, set-them-free, it’s-not-their-fault-they-can’t-help-themselves-because-of-society sentimentality favored by liberals.
Remember how the southern California chapter of NOW refused to condemn the 1995 O.J. Simpson not-guilty verdict because “he is a hero to the black community”? So much for how militant feminists REALLY care about women.
Hmm…never saw Nikki write something like ‘hug em and set them free’ about rapists, but perhaps she wrote this elsewhere and I am mistaken? I have also not seen republicans care about creating better circumstances for the poor, which is the group you were most concerned about. And before being sentenced, first the rapists need to get caught, the raped women need to be believed, the right person needs to be locked up….only then the stiffness of the sentence will start to count. However, by then most of the damage is already done. What Nikki is doing here is to… Read more »
“Women can’t see who the ‘good men’ are and as a consequence women almost daily distrust ANY man.” Well, if “women” (in your presuming to speak for 50% of the world’s population) can’t distinguish between “good men” and rapists, then I can let you in on a tiny secret amongst the private fraternity of men: we can’t either. Actually, it works like this; like most citizens of the world, I fear being mugged. I can’t really easily and precisely identify muggers from non-muggers whenever I leave my home, but there are gradations of probability I take into account, such as… Read more »
“the raped women need to be believed, the right person needs to be locked up”
So all we need is a foolproof method of sorting out genuine rape victims from the liars. Since one doesn’t exist, we’ll just have to keep going with innocent until proven guilty and beyond all reasonable doubt.
Recall a chap called Ampersand and various message boards we exchanged ideas on….
Please refrain from using language like “cnt” (or anything else derogatory to male or female). I’ll speak with editors.
I wondered how this site devolved into an MRA cesspool, and then I see that mods take men seriously when they call women cunts and promise to talk to editors about said “cunt” when she honestly discusses a culture that enables rape and the men who permit it to continue with their silence. I’m done here. There’s no room for good men on this site.
Jennifer, I’m not sure what else you’d wish me to to. At this moment in time, I don’t have banning authority and I have emailed Lisa and Ryan about the use of language. I’m not taking anyone more or less seriously just trying to keep things consistent and equal. If you call someone a terrible derogatory name, I’ll ask you to refrain as well.
I apologize; I thought you meant you were both reprimanding him and stating that you would email the editor about his concerns.
I was noting the language and I was sending a missive about both topics. It was a, if you will, meta email to the Editors. Personally, I don’t want anyone using cruel language at anyone and discourse should be civil. I’d prefer to take your post down too or edit it for “C” but as it stands you weren’t calling anyone that word, only using it as reference.
I’m off for the night.
“There’s no room for good men on this site.”
If not here then where?
As much as a minority of MRAs are prone to this kind of behaviour, I’ve seen the same and worse from feminists. I assume you wouldn’t like to be lumped in with them?
@ Peter Houlihan. You write: ‘“There’s no room for good men on this site.” If not here then where?’
Starting with threats now? “Your fellow men on other sites are even worse”? “Other men will only insult you more”? “They will get you females if we can’t”?
Or am I now a …what was it again according to David Byron… a men-hating priviledged female feminist, understanding you, sweet man, in a wrong way?
Oh…yeah..you’re right….now I see: you meant to say to Jennifer: ‘Please stay, I will miss you if you go. …You complete me….’
“Starting with threats now?” What? Sorry, but I really can’t see how you found any of that threatening. I was attacking the idea that such language is typical of MRAs. I also attack the idea that similar language is typical of feminists. I don’t like to be called a misogynist simply because I stand up for men’s rights. I assume you wouldn’t like to be compared to Valerie Solonas simply because you both call yourself feminist? Generalising all feminist or masculist viewpoints in order to dismiss the movement as a whole is pure straw-man tactics. If you want any examples… Read more »
Are the words c!ck and c”nt allowed if not directed at anyone….in particular?
You have it tough here Julie. And you’re doing wonderfully.
Mr. Byron can also be a handful. I’ve known of him online for a while now, and believe it or not, he’s actually mellowed a bit…..
Oh yeah? Where from?
Thank you for your reply, Mr Oztaskin. I have definitely appreciated the dialogue generated, even if I’ve had trouble keeping up with it over on my piece… First, again, I was not saying I think all men are rapists at all ever – in fact, I’d say the opposite. I will say that I think, when we talk about rape after the fact, we often discuss it as if rape was something men just do. For example, when we say “well, she shouldn’t have worn X or done Y” we rarely respond with “why are we talking about her clothing… Read more »
… I think discussion about race already lump all men in together. I can talk all I want about how this isn’t true, but my piece was wondering why men aren’t more vocal on this point. The response has been that they are vocal, which I find heartening. Please spread the word! (Yes! There is a need for this!)
Nikki
Are you a feminist, a member of the group that covers up denies and minimizes all forms of female abuse?
Get out of here and stop trolling us.
Warren Farrell calls himself a feminist. Ever read “The Myth of Male Power”? If you lump all feminists together does that mean you’re lumping me in with the MGTOW crowd?
Just on the point of clothing. If a woman wears revealing clothing into a broken neighborhood, its asking for trouble. You’re quite correct to say that clothing isn’t some magnetic trigger that forces men to rape, rapists have serious emotional flaws which cause them to assault people, but it can and does attract their attention. That is why its sensible to advise women to cover up on the street. Not because it excuses rape, or suggests that they’re asking for it, but because it can be dangerous in the wrong company. Rape accusers being attacked in the media for wearing… Read more »
@ Peter Houlihan
You write: “In the courtroom, however, there’s possibly a good reason to bring it up: If the accusation is false, drawing attention to aspects of the case which suggest that consentual sex took place can form part of a legitimate defense.”
You are here actually saying that women who wear ‘suggestive’ clothes are more likely to have consented to sex, and are more likely to falsely accuse a man of rape afterwards.
Do you see how insane that is?
No, but it suggests that its possible. The burden of proof in criminal cases is “beyond all reasonable doubt.” If a reasonable doubt exists that rape occurred its the duty of the defense to introduce it. For instance: Woman walking home at night from an 18 hour shift wearing her work uniform and a brown overcoat. She later claims she was raped and the police determine that sexual activity occurred. Semen in her vagina is linked to a man who lives nearby. It seems unlikely that she had consentual sex with a stranger after an 18 hour shift. The prosecution… Read more »
So you don’t understand why men see you as anti-male and sexist? Would you say that is because of your female privilege?
There is no female privilege.
What’s your point?
yawn…zzz…..
Ever heard of a woman buying a diamond ring, postrating herself before a man and begging him to marry her? Ever heard of a woman working 18 hour shifts and having no control over how her money is spent? Ever heard of a country where any women are conscripted to the front lines in time of war?
None of these things mean that male privilege doesn’t exist. They just mean that female privilege does too. Enjoy your sleep.
No – men do not see her that way. You do (apparently). Possibly other men as well. And maybe even some women. But “men” do not have a single point of view – on this, or anything else. And rest assured that there are men who do not see Nikki as anti-male and sexist in any way.
It’s kinda ironic, don’t you think, that you make this comment to a post who’s arguing just this point – that no man can speak for all men or be required to speak for men or apologize for men.
Thank you Nikki, you are absolutely right!
Nikki, Louise, Peter, and everyone else. I have seen both sides of this. I had a co-worker who’s son was falsely accused of rape. 2 years and about 50 thousand dollars later, he was finally cleared. Of course nothing happened to his false accuser. I also have a good friend who’s wife was raped at work (At a hospital by a co-worker). It was He-said She said and he walked free.She quit her job (He stayed on) and forget “maritial relations”, he can’t even touch his wife on the shoulder without her “freezing up”. This couple had an ideallic marriage… Read more »
ladything says: “However, I think the general assumption of rape culture is that rape is not an isolated fact. It exists on a spectrum of permissible and unpermissable behavior.”
Couldn’t you say that about theft? Rare is the person who condones sticking up convenience stores, but do we return to a store an item we discover in our shopping bag the clerk forgot to ring-up?
The most pernicious thing I find about the term “rape-culture” is that it actually takes away from the horror that IS rape. When everything is rape, nothing is rape.
Rare is the person who condones sticking up convenience stores, but do we return to a store an item we discover in our shopping bag the clerk forgot to ring-up?
Well, yes, actually. Don’t most people do that? Perhaps I live in a cultural bubble.
I’d generally tend to agree that watering down the definition of rape to include any sex that you regret afterwards is wrong to the victims of serious and violent sexual assault, but I can only imagine how hurtful that analogy you made must be to such a person. Comparing unconsentual sex to forgetting to pay for your groceries is a bit wide of the mark.
Statistically, you’ve probably socialized with a rapist at some point. Is it your responsibility, therefore, to begin every conversation with JUST SO YOU KNOW, RAPE IS BAD FORM OLD BOY? Humorous mental image (“This is Jill. She works in accounting.” “HI JILL. JUST SO YOU KNOW, DON’T RAPE ANYONE”), probably not. However, I think the general assumption of rape culture is that rape is not an isolated fact. It exists on a spectrum of permissible and unpermissable behavior. For instance, none of us condone leaping out of the bushes and sexually assaulting a jogger. But do we condone treating sex… Read more »
Do you tell women not to rape?
Yes. Why don’t you? And, more importantly, why do you think it is that society doesn’t acknowledge that women have the power to rape and that men are capable of being vulnerable? Hint: It’s not feminists.
“And, more importantly, why do you think it is that society doesn’t acknowledge that women have the power to rape and that men are capable of being vulnerable? Hint: It’s not feminists.”
Apart from hugo…
I’ve never seen a feminist tell a woman not to rape.
I’ve rarely seen a feminist admit a woman even can rape.
…..or for that matter do anything wrong……
“I’ve never seen a feminist tell a woman not to rape. I’ve rarely seen a feminist admit a woman even can rape, or, for that matter, do anything wrong.” I’ve never seen Africa, either, but I can reasonably assume that it exists. It sounds like your experience with feminism has soured you towards feminists. If so, I’m sorry to hear it. There are plenty of women and men out there who accept the feminist label AND work towards a more balanced, compassionate view of gender relations, and I’d hate to think that you would close yourself off to them simply… Read more »
Clarification on that last thought – I won’t let those men who are rapists speak for all men – nor will I deny the HUMAN capacity for rape regardless of sex/gender.
Statistically, men commit far more acts of rape against all genders than women do, and men have the advantage, generally, of being larger and physically stronger than women. But statistically, the overwhelming majority of male rapists are not the type to be spending their time at a website such as this, much less would they be taking Hugo Schwyzer or any other ashamed-of-his-penis male very seriously if they so encountered them.
By the way, speaking of Africa, can any feminist, militant or otherwise, explain a phenomenon such as this?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Nyiramasuhuko
Is your question asking if feminists can explain why a woman acted like a sociopath? Um, because sociopathy doesn’t gender discriminate? Because human beings, all of us, are capable of the most profoundly evil of actions? Because being within a system of such war and toxicity (and I can’t speak adequately on the topic of that genocide or the historical and cultural dynamics of that area of Africa, but my guess is the entire system poisoned men and women alike into acting the way they did) some people are more prone to acts of horrific violence as well as some… Read more »
Unfortunately feminists, as a group, don’t tackle the issue of male rape or women rapists with anything near the fervour of male on female rape. I’m glad to hear your break this trend.
Please, get over yourselves and be happy that you do not have to deal with the threat of having a penis shoved up your vagina every time you walk alone at night, open your front door, go visit your uncle Bob or go to a party. Start feeling some compassion for the vagina-owners who are made to live with this fear, instead of repeating over and over again how unfair you think they are to you personally for complaining.
“Please, get over yourselves and be happy that you do not have to deal with the threat of having a penis shoved up your vagina every time you walk alone at night, open your front door, go visit your uncle Bob or go to a party” Wow. I can almost hear the accelerating violions from “Psycho” as I read the above. The good thing is that I know too many sane and rationale women to know that “Louise” does not speak for her gender. But just to clarify, to reject that claim that 1) all-penis bearers are inherent rapists and… Read more »
As a sidenote, I’d say women have a legitimate right to be concerned about the possibility of a sexual assault, especially in poor, working-class, and minority neighborhoods, where the overwhelming majority of rapes occur, but the claim by “Louise” that all women live in fear of being sexually assaulted by their uncles only accentuates a mentality that merits study, but not so much cultural but rather clinical. Yes, there are uncles who rape their nieces, as there are aunts, mothers, and sisters who sexually abuse their kin — but to regard every uncle as a potential rapist makes me want… Read more »
Interesting that you, as a man, feel the need to teach me, a woman, about how women (including myself) generally feel. And yes, Psycho, yes, I bet you didn’t realize this. Did you think it was just harmless fun? Or that rape is just a word to argue about on a blog? I have a few friends who were raped, one repeatedly and this was never recognized in court. A few years ago there was an alert of a ‘serial rapist’ in the neighborhood where I work and women were advised to not travel alone between home and work in… Read more »
I have a great deal of compassion for rape victims and the culture of fear surrounding rape is absolutely wrong. I say this because I know exactly what is like to be afraid to walk through a dark area: I mightn’t be at much at risk of rape as you, but I’m still part of a group (men) who are alot more likely to be assaulted than yours in general. Tackling rape and violence is an important issue. This is why I’m highly critical of the feminist voices that mischaracterise all men as rapists and cover up female rape. I… Read more »
Just to be clear, I’m highly supportive of the feminist voices that don’t consider all men rapists and condemn and recognise female rape. Unfortunately the other kind are either more numerous or vocal.
Numerous and vocal within the limited purview of media and academia. The overwhelming majority of women rightly regard “the other kind” as the loonies they are.
Dear Truth
you said “The rape culture theory began in prison among black men, it was later co-opted promoted and developed …”
Do you have any references concerning this reference to prisons. It may explain the issue of locating source documents and references.
Hello MediaHound
I found that information here h t t p://feministwhore.wordpress.com/2009/12/13/the-origin-of-the-term-rape-culture/
Dear Truth ( that sounds almost ironic ) P^) The link you provided is most interesting – it hits at matters – but does not give a full picture, but it has opened up Pandora’s Box. It indiactes that some issues arose out of the work of Men Against Rape in Lorton Prison in the Washington DC and it was featured in a 1974/5 documentary film, Rape Culture, produced and directed by Margaret Lazarus and Renner Wunderlich for Cambridge Documentary Films. So it may well be that the first instance of the term “Rape Culture” is from that film –… Read more »
Ms. Brown was promoting radical feminist hate-speech, Men in general do not rape, rape is not gendered, society seeks to punish rapists, not reward or encourage them. The rape culture theory began in prison among black men, it was later co-opted promoted and developed by genocidal radical feminist separatist feminists like Mary Daly, the men in prison were forgotten about. Feminist rape culture rhetoric, deliberately generalizes men as rapists, or supporting rapists, and sweeps female perpetrated rape under the carpet. Which indicated that Its less about rape and more about hate-propaganda. Little do the so called “moderate” feminists that endless… Read more »
I worked in a prision as a welder for 3 years (1982-1985). It was reffered to as “Medium Security”. Most of the “sex” between inmates was “bought and paid for” (cigerettes were the currency used) If anyone new was known to be in there for rape (especially if it involved a minor) he went right into PC(protective custody) . He wouldn’t last a week in General Population. Someone would come up from behind and “shank” him.
But what is that, bobbt? That even male non-rapist criminals hate rape and rapists? And that you learned that from first-hand knowledge rather than through a PhD thesis? That defies the very essence of the militant feminist take on men.
LOL Rick S. Yeah, I only write about what I have either experienced myself or haved observrd live and in person. Actually, some of the people I have met with the letters PHD after their name, I figured that it stands for Piled Higher and Deeper!
Murat I welcome your analysis of issues and also of responsibilities. I do understand the term Rape Culture, and from the very limited available resources that exist providing any form of model or explanation of it, I can see how it is presently constructed and seen to operate. “Reification (also known as concretism, or the fallacy of misplaced concreteness) is a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete, real event, or physical entity. In other words, it is the error of treating as a “real thing” something which… Read more »
“I do understand the term Rape Culture, and from the very limited available resources that exist providing any form of model or explanation of it, I can see how it is presently constructed and seen to operate. ” Yep. Having definitions would help but maybe that is asking too much. If a child call you a loser you don’t ask the child for a definition of loser, a history of the world loser and proof that indeed loser correctly applies to you. You treat it as name-calling. Perhaps asking for rape culture to actually make sense and be coherent is… Read more »
Though I’m in agreement with the overall message of your piece, I’m a bit dumbfounded that you don’t put much weight into whether the theory itself properly identifies reality – bad theory gives you bad solutions. I’m not going to address the numbers at all, as I don’t agree with either the MRA or feminist take on the numbers or what they mean. I think both groups have their heads up their arse on this topic… I do want to address the term itself, as to me, it is nonsensical. The stronger reality is that we live in an anti-rape,… Read more »
“I’m a bit dumbfounded that you don’t put much weight into whether the theory itself properly identifies reality – bad theory gives you bad solutions. ”
Exactly. This is a point I made in a previous article and I backed it up with two empirical counterexamples to rape culture theory. The feminists presented no good counterarguments and the MRAs defended me as expected. But it didn’t make a bit of difference in the end. Nobody changed their original positions.
You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into.
“The stronger reality is that we live in an anti-rape, anti-violence culture etc. It is a truism that any rate of violence should be addressed and mitigated to the best of our abilities, and that our current culture does exactly that.”
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
“More generically, those claiming that we live in a culture of violence are under the spell of the myth of the noble savage. ”
Could you expand on that? I don’t see how it applies.
Hi Peter,
Noble savage is the notion that we are born good and pure in essence, and only later corrupted through social wickedness – sort of a Garden of Eden storyline.
In reality, the opposite is true. Socialization, social contracts etc – is what brings out the “goodness” in people. If babies had access to nuclear weapons, we’d have blown up this planet 100X over by now…our goodness develops and grows from social interactions, development of language, institutions, relationships, technology and various other tentacles of humanity.
Ah! Gotcha. Yep, nature red in tooth and claw, humans no exception.
The unfortunate act of dejected Men and some condescending/Slut shaming women reveling in schadenfreude at “the Girl in the Mini skirt being attacked” Does not Give Feminist the right to prosecute all sexual encounters in the court of public opinion, all while having the hubris to demand 100% solidarity with the supposed victim before anyone has had their day in court. Personally I make it a point keep my mouth shut until the gavel sounds. Now If you’ll excuse me, I’m going to stagger around a “Crip” neighborhood drunk as hell wearing “Blood” red clothing at 2 in the morning… Read more »
That’s legitimately hilarious, because your scenario, in which you say that you will go into a gang’s territory wearing the gear of an opposing gang, proposes that women who go out in public are in a rival faction’s territory. What a sad view of gender relations, and what a fundamental cause of rape culture.
I think you are deliberately misreading the analogy so as to spread gender mistrust and hatred.
He is comparing being a female who wears a miniskirt and is raped to being a person wearing rival gang symbols and knows what will happen to them. The analogy itself is predicated on gender mistrust and hatred, and on the idea that women who are raped are engaging in behaviour equivalent to the above scenario.
I think men are capable of way better than Crips and Bloods, thanks. He apparently doesn’t.
No it is you feminists who leap to assume the men=evil, women=good frame every time.
All his analogy has as elements was a person doing something that a reasonable person could foresee might cause them to be attacked.
Someone who wears a miniskirt through a dangerous area must be at least a little bit aware of what could happen. The analogy is predicated on reality, which is that wearing the wrong thing through the wrong area attracts attention and that we should all choose not to do so wherever possible for our own safety.
I think men, and women, are capable of being better than the Crips and Bloods. I’m pretty sure he does too.
The problem is that for rape there are no areas that it can’t happen and no people that it can’t happen to. Rape does not discriminate women rape, men rape, children rape – women get raped, men get raped children get raped. It can and does happen everywhere regardless of income, race, gender, religion etc. Rape is about the inappropriate application/use abuse of power, violence and aggression all humans are capable of all being violent, aggressive and abusing power. Not every individual rapes anymore than every individual one other violent crimes – that is the problem viewing people as monoliths… Read more »
DavidByron, I think you are deliberately misunderstanding the meaning of women and feminists so as to make your mysogenist points.
No, hes suggesting that women who wander around bad areas wearing revealing clothing are deliberately attracting the attention of dangerous people. If she is assaulted, then her attacker is 100% responsible for doing so. But she is still responsible for putting herself in danger.
*sorry, not deliberately, unwittingly
@Jennifer the Man Vs. Women tribalism analogy you’re hoping for is the product of your own personal biases. My intention was to promote gender neutral “street smarts” so that women and men NOT jeopardize their most valuable possession… Their lives.
Uhm-Kay’
Actually Peter – I could be either. There are some who like to live dangerously – and even provoke events! P^) That is why any generic view that one is automatically a victim or automatically a victimizer is wrong. I may be a useful guide line but if can allow very nasty anti-social behavior to escape detection. … and before anyone decides to Jump in and claim I am MRA and Mansplaining – promoting rape and rapists – It’s generic and not specific! If you have Blinders on that make you filter all words through a narrow view – try… Read more »
How come their “rape culture” didn’t change when we discovered that men and women are raped at similar rates or that men and women are likely to be rapists in similar amounts? It’s completely divorced from any reality beyond their fantasy world where men are the ultimate evil and women run around being victims all day. Funny how we’re being told by feminists that its OK for a woman to wander around a rough area of town in nothing but their underwear and its perfectly OK, but hey don’t you DARE accept a lift from a man girls, if you’re… Read more »
I doubt that men are raped at similar rates, but I am open to an explanation/source on that claim. The point is not that woman should or shouldn’t wear this or that, or accept that ride. The point is that whether she wears the “wrong” clothes or accepts a ride, it’s not her fault if she is assaulted. It’s the rapist’s fault. That said, I don’t tend to dress “slutty,” but if I did and something happened, I would not blame myself. Because something has happened, and I wasn’t dressed “slutty,” so I know that what I wear won’t protect… Read more »
Just sounds like you’re inventing stuff so you can moan on about how victimized you are how everything is men’s fault. It’s sexist. The ONLY people I have EVER heard talk about blaming rape victims dress length have been feminists. It’s a nonexistent problem created to attack men.
For the discussion on the survey that shows men raped more / more women rapists search for NISVS in the site search feature.
Surrrreeeee, DavidByron……please, go read something.
Unfortunately some feminists do argue that educating women on how to live safely is oppression. I’m glad to hear you’re not one of them.
If I walk through Darndale at 1am and get beaten into a coma, the responsability for my assault lies solely with my attacker. I’m still responsible for putting myself in a dangerous situation though.
Bravo, Murat.
Agreed, Murat, and well done. The notion that ALL MEN have some sort of responsibility to oppose rape in the fashion Nikki Brown expects and requires is ludicrous.
It’s SOOOOO hard for men to get off their ass and actually do some work stopping MEN from raping women. Geez, those women should shut up and just take it, huh?
IS THAT WHAT YOU’RE SAYING?
No Copyleft is saying that men should not be held collectively responsible for the actions of the minority that commit rape. Its not that bad of an idea or that hard to get really.
I see you have trouble getting past your own self-centered viewpoint, LA; what I’m saying is that men, as a group, have no particular obligations to you OR to Nikki to satisfy you that we’re “doing enough about rape.”
We’ll do what’s right; if you don’t like how we handle the issue, tough. Your input and your approval are not needed.
“Ultimately, I’m trying to reject the us-versus-them gender war of rape-culture discussion.” This will be a difficult goal; the “rape culture” relies upon the myth that “every man” is a potential rapist. The belief that some ill-defined barrier exists that holds every man back from being a rapist because, at the core of their being, all men want to rape. It is hogwash, but hysteria does not bend to logic. The women who promote the idea of “all men are rapists in waiting” are not men yet they are so convinced they know what men think; they simply cannot believe… Read more »
Wow. Very well said. And like I’ve said, a rapist is not, contrary to what the Nikki Browns of this world believe, a typical guy, but rather somebody who is seriously, pathologically sick, and thus impervious to any guilt-trip lectures from either men or women. I mean, similarly, I could lecture to men and women with an inclination to murder, “please don’t murder, it’s wrong”, but what are the chances they’ll listen?
So I don’t think that “all men are potential rapists.” I do think that there are all manner of monsters (cheaters, killers, liars, stealers, rapers, abusers, manipulators) in the world, but they all look like people. And if there is one monster in 100 people and they all look the same……how do you tell who the monster is. It’s a no win situation. You either have to trust everyone and hope to god you don’t get taken under the troll’s bridge (and hopefully not blamed for it after for leaving your car unlocked, or your skirt too short, or your… Read more »
Perhaps people have different instincts, or differently developed instincts. Body language, voice tone , mannerisms and carriage can all give hints to people’s motives. When I enter a risk situation, particularly with women, I take the time to assess what I think of the situation and if I’m uneasy I plan an exit strategy. If they are obviously a danger then I leave immediately. I have been wrong on a couple of occasions but I was mentally prepared and extricated myself from the situation with minimal risk. I realise that, looking back over what I wrote, that I take personal… Read more »
Yes, Bravo indeed. Since we’re on the topic of definitions, I thought it might be interesting to look up the definition of sexism (from Wikipedia): Sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is the application of the false belief that there are characteristics implicit to one’s gender that indirectly affect one’s abilities in unrelated areas. It is a form of discrimination or devaluation based on a person’s sex, with such attitudes being based on beliefs in traditional stereotypes of gender roles. How is the idea that “In Rape Culture, All Men Are Guilty Until Proven Innocent” not the… Read more »
The way I like to think of situations of violence is this. All people look like people. All people look like they could be trusted. Some of them, a very small amount, shouldn’t be. But it’s extremely hard to tell which ones are the “monsters.” Women, men, gay, straight, old, young, anyone “might” have some sociopathic type tendencies which might lead them to manipulate and abuse. And, in that same group, there may be circumstances (poverty, addiction) which could also cause one to steal, lie, cheat. But on the surface it is hard to tell. We do create filters, and… Read more »
“Evil and abuse exists. Humans partake in it. Its’ quite hard to know who is the one who will be doing it based on externals.” You never know, do you, Julie? Perhaps that kindly old Catholic nun you saw giving alms to the poor last week might also be packing an Uzi in her habit, ready to go postal when you least expect it. Knowing who or what is dangerous is not an exact science, and never will be, but until feminism came along, most men and women used common sense and a certain degree of instinct. Actually most men… Read more »
Are you listening to me? I’m not saying every man or woman is a potential rapist. Or liar. Or abuser. Or thief. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING. I’m saying it’s likely that most of them are not. And that it’s hard to tell if everyone looks human. And that because we are all fallible, and we are fearful, we create (and have created for centuries probably) filters to determine who is “safe” and who is not. And those are currently problematic and full of isms. And that the choices we are faced with are trusting and hoping for… Read more »
Go Julie! Thank you!
“And those are currently problematic and full of isms.” Full of “isms.” In other words, politically incorrect. Thus women must be counseled to ignore the evident reality of what type of men are more likely to sexually assault them — which IS “better process for determining how to keep people safe” — because such reality does not conform with one’s ideology. And thus women are exposed to greater risk by the very individuals who claim to want to protect them. As far as I am concerned, the best way to “push back against abuse” to tell it like it is,… Read more »
At this point I can’t tell if you are agreeing or arguing. I’ve trusted men that I shouldn’t have. I’ve probably distrusted men I should have. Same goes for women. And I’m guessing, men have had similar experiences. I have done nothing but tell things as I see them, try to listen and learn and act as a force for understanding. If you feel I’m doing or something in opposition to that then please be more clear. Or not. It doesn’t sound like you believe or agree with me, so there may not be more for either of us to… Read more »
“I trusted him and knew him for years. So what the fuck was that? If you trust someone for 6 years and that happens?” I am reminded of men who find themselves the targets of outrageous accusations by their ex-wives during custody hearings, the most common of course, being that “he sexually abused the children”. The divorce itself is usually prompted by the increasingly erratic behavior of the woman. Some of these guys wallow in self-pity, and go on about their bad luck in ever marrying “such a crazy bitch”. The more honest ones will admit that there were little… Read more »
Like I said in the other post. We went to high school together. He was a nerdy dude, shy, funny and kind. If there were red flags that he was going to be a desperate frenzied frottageist with a limited sense of what consent meant, I didn’t know how to notice it at that juncture. Mind you, this was the 80’s right? In the south. No real sex ed no real information for either gender about respecting each other. Plus he was Catholic and more conservative for me. Those flags I’d now process as potentially red I guess. Or yellow.… Read more »
Julie, you are one of the few Feminist that I’ve seen speak out against the sterotyping of “all men are rapist” B.S. that this “Rape Culture” movement trys to spread. While this may annoy myself and other men. The people who are really being affected by this are young women. These poor young women (18 to 26 or so). Everyday I see them recoil in ,if not fear, apprehention from normal situations of interaction. Yet some willgo out to the clubs where they wii “hook up” with total strangers. This hard core Feminist Dogma has these girls chasing their tale… Read more »